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ExemplarofAvg
2012-09-07, 02:31 PM
Prerequisities: Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Weapon Focus (Hammer) Double Strike.
Benefit: With this feat after a successful attack with a dagger you may follow that up with a swing of the hammer, to drive the dagger in as if it were a nail. You roll an attack roll vs. the Daggerís (Hardness or AC) if you do you

treat the Dagger attack as if it were a critical hit
or
add the Hammerís damage to the Daggerís damage.

and the weapon becomes stuck. A stuck dagger can be struck again provided you can hit the AC of the struck target plus the (Hardness or AC) of the Dagger. When a stuck dagger is removed it deals damage again (treat this as an attack roll made by the creature removing the dagger) unless a heal check the DC is equal to the damage dealt, afterwards it deals bleed damage equal to your strength score.

Trent Swiftfingers (Halfling Fighter)
Hammer and Nail
1d2+3x2 (8 or 10)
or
1d2+1d6+6 (8-14)

3 Bleed Damage

Notes: I've always wanted a feat to do something like this, and I'm worried about it's strength in the long run. Hence the crap-ton of prerequisite feats.

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-07, 03:27 PM
Hope you don't mind me cleaning it up for you:

[Hammer and Nail]
Prerequisites: Double Strike, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Weapon Focus (Hammer)
Benefit: If you make a successful attack with a dagger while also wielding a hammer in the opposite hand, you may gain one of the following benefits:
You treat the attack with the dagger as a confirmed critical hit.
Add the hammer's base damage dice as extra damage to the dagger's. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.


Regardless of which benefit you choose, the dagger becomes stuck in the creature's body. You may then attack the stuck dagger in place of the creature with your hammer (the creature gaining an untyped bonus to it's AC equal to the dagger's hardness), dealing the dagger's normal damage on a successful hit and allowing you to use the benefits of this feat.

Removing the dagger requires a Heal or Strength check (DC = 10 + 1/2 your total hit dice + your Strength modifier). Regardless if the check if successful or not, the creature takes 1d4 bleed damage every round thereafter. A DC 15 Heal check or any form of magical healing ceases this damage, but only if the dagger has been removed.

You can not benefit from this feat more than once per round.


I basically just rewrote and rephrased what you had in the opening post, but I also added a few small changes for balance reasons.

Amnoriath
2012-09-07, 05:16 PM
Prerequisities: Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Weapon Focus (Hammer) Double Strike.
Benefit: With this feat after a successful attack with a dagger you may follow that up with a swing of the hammer, to drive the dagger in as if it were a nail. You roll an attack roll vs. the Daggerís (Hardness or AC) if you do you

treat the Dagger attack as if it were a critical hit
or
add the Hammerís damage to the Daggerís damage.

and the weapon becomes stuck. A stuck dagger can be struck again provided you can hit the AC of the struck target plus the (Hardness or AC) of the Dagger. When a stuck dagger is removed it deals damage again (treat this as an attack roll made by the creature removing the dagger) unless a heal check the DC is equal to the damage dealt, afterwards it deals bleed damage equal to your strength score.

Trent Swiftfingers (Halfling Fighter)
Hammer and Nail
1d2+3x2 (8 or 10)
or
1d2+1d6+6 (8-14)

3 Bleed Damage

Notes: I've always wanted a feat to do something like this, and I'm worried about it's strength in the long run. Hence the crap-ton of prerequisite feats.

Is this suppose to be 3.5/Pathfinder? I can't find a feat called double strike. There is dual strike but that require improved two-weapon fighting. Overall, it is incredibly feat intensive for just a precise attack and little more damage while sacrificing a weapon. You can get mostly a better version of this from a +2 weapon enchantment(fleshgrinding).
I suggest take out double strike and give it a BAB requirement this way you can control about when you want a player to get it without having to take so many feats. I would also suggest attaching a debilitating effect, logically you only can have so many good daggers.

Cieyrin
2012-09-08, 01:18 PM
Given EoA's usually talking PF and I'm thinking Double Slice was meant, I'm guessing this is PF.

Troll Brau, your rewrite doesn't actually do the same thing as EoA's and is a mite more confusing (not that EoA's isn't by itself).

Essentially, the thought process is:

Hit with dagger.
Use a hammer to drive the dagger in.
Cause special effect till removed.
Cause bleeding after removal till bound.

Going by the build, I'm assuming Warhammer, though I don't see a reason you couldn't use a light hammer or an Earth Breaker, since y'need Quick Draw, anyways.

The AC to hit the dagger should be better defined, I think, as well as integrate the target's defenses somewhat. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to force people to have to calculate a 3rd AC, so perhaps hit the target's touch AC, since you already pierced their regular with the dagger and your trying to hit the hammer and drive it further in, not pierce their normal defenses again.

Getting a free crit should probably have the Two-Handed Fighter archetype clause for not activating critical special effects, as this makes it too easy to exploit. Hitting an embeded dagger shouldn't cause all the energy bursts you put on it to go off.

Troll Brau's version of the bleed and removal, as well as adding hammer damage are right on, though, I don't think you should be able to hit a dagger more than once, given Quick Draw's presence. I assume it's for drawing more daggers to hammer in to your target.

Is the follow-up hammer supposed to be a free attack or do you just need to full attack?

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-08, 02:55 PM
Given EoA's usually talking PF and I'm thinking Double Slice was meant, I'm guessing this is PF.

Troll Brau, your rewrite doesn't actually do the same thing as EoA's and is a mite more confusing (not that EoA's isn't by itself).



It's because I flubbed and said "opposite hand" when I meant "off-hand", right? I knew I was writing that bit weird. :smallsigh:

Cieyrin
2012-09-08, 03:31 PM
It's because I flubbed and said "opposite hand" when I meant "off-hand", right? I knew I was writing that bit weird. :smallsigh:

It's more that you auto-get the crit or extra damage without having to hit the dagger with the hammer on the first strike. At least that's my current reading of your take.

Tanuki Tales
2012-09-08, 03:53 PM
It's more that you auto-get the crit or extra damage without having to hit the dagger with the hammer on the first strike. At least that's my current reading of your take.

Oh, that's because I saw the initial "hitting with hammer" as being a fluff thing that was being overcomplicated as mechanics. I may have gotten confused by what EoA was originally saying. I'll do a revision of my rewrite of the feat when I get a chance then.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-09-10, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I'm usually talking PF, it's my preferred system by now, although I often keep forgetting to specify that. And Cieyrin has the right of it, that is the thought process. I figured trying to hit a person being hard, hitting a nail you placed in that person should be harder, unless it would be easier, I'm just not sure what kind of modifier should be used. Also thanks Troll Brau, that is a good way to look at it.

Hit with dagger.
Use a hammer to drive the dagger in.
Cause special effect till removed.
Cause bleeding after removal till bound.
+
[Hammer and Nail]
Prerequisites: Double Strike, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Dagger), Weapon Focus (Hammer)
Benefit: If you make a successful attack with a dagger while also wielding a hammer in the opposite hand, you may gain one of the following benefits:
You treat the attack with the dagger as a confirmed critical hit.
Add the hammer's base damage dice as extra damage to the dagger's. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.


Regardless of which benefit you choose, the dagger becomes stuck in the creature's body. You may then attack the stuck dagger in place of the creature with your hammer (the creature gaining an untyped bonus to it's AC equal to the dagger's hardness), dealing the dagger's normal damage on a successful hit and allowing you to use the benefits of this feat.

Removing the dagger requires a Heal or Strength check (DC = 10 + 1/2 your total hit dice + your Strength modifier). Regardless if the check if successful or not, the creature takes 1d4 bleed damage every round thereafter. A DC 15 Heal check or any form of magical healing ceases this damage, but only if the dagger has been removed.

You can not benefit from this feat more than once per round.=
[Hammer and Nail] V.3
Prerequisites: Double Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Hammer)
Benefit: As a Standard action you attempt an attack with an opponent with a dagger, if the attack is successful you follow up with the swing of the hammer in your off-hand, causing the dagger to puncture farther hitting a vital point and resulting in a critical hit. The dagger then becomes stuck in the creature's body. You may then attack the stuck dagger in place of the creature with your hammer aiming for the nail vs. the (Touch? Flat-Footed? Some other form of defence) , dealing the daggers damage plus the hammer's base damage dice as extra damage to the dagger's. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.

Removing the dagger requires a Heal or Strength check (DC = 10 + Initial Damage Dealt). Regardless if the check if successful or not, the creature takes 1d4 bleed damage every round thereafter. A DC 15 Heal check or any form of magical healing ceases this damage, but only if the dagger has been removed.
Maybe?

Cieyrin
2012-09-10, 05:25 PM
Still some issues, though the lighter prereqs kinda helps.

There isn't technically a Hammer weapon, there's light hammers, warhammers, Earth Breakers, etc. I'd suggest making it Weapon Focus (Light Hammer or Warhammer).

Again, Double Strike isn't a feat, Double Slice is.

So the first step just makes the hammer a fluff thing that automatically happens to make it crit, since it's a standard action? I guess that works, though I still think you should have the 'does not activate critical effects' clause in there, as this is an easy way to abuse those.

For hitting the dagger with the hammer afterwards, I'd probably go for touch AC and specify that you have to use the light or warhammer you're Weapon Focused in, as that adds value setting up the nail in the first place, as well as preventing abuse via Earth Breaker or something, though if it gets silly you may wish to put a 1/round limit on hitting the nail if that's too much. Because, seriously, Touch AC + Power Attack with a two-handed warhammer attack can get nasty quick and encourage them to dig the dagger out. Also something to make it better than Fleshrending.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-09-11, 11:51 AM
Still some issues, though the lighter prereqs kinda helps.

There isn't technically a Hammer weapon, there's light hammers, warhammers, Earth Breakers, etc. I'd suggest making it Weapon Focus (Light Hammer or Warhammer).

Again, Double Strike isn't a feat, Double Slice is.

So the first step just makes the hammer a fluff thing that automatically happens to make it crit, since it's a standard action? I guess that works, though I still think you should have the 'does not activate critical effects' clause in there, as this is an easy way to abuse those.

For hitting the dagger with the hammer afterwards, I'd probably go for touch AC and specify that you have to use the light or warhammer you're Weapon Focused in, as that adds value setting up the nail in the first place, as well as preventing abuse via Earth Breaker or something, though if it gets silly you may wish to put a 1/round limit on hitting the nail if that's too much. Because, seriously, Touch AC + Power Attack with a two-handed warhammer attack can get nasty quick and encourage them to dig the dagger out. Also something to make it better than Fleshrending.

I dunno, I think I want people to be able to abuse it. Is there a hammer equivalent to the Bastard Sword? A One-Hander that can be used two-handed? That might be about as "abuse-y" as I think it could go. Also thank you for pointing it out, I was trying to change everything.

Added the clause I think you were talking about, but not sure.

[Hammer and Nail] V.4
Prerequisites: Double Slice, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Light or One-Handed Bludgeoning Weapon)
Benefit: As a Standard action you attempt an attack with an opponent with a dagger, if the attack is successful you follow up with the swing of the hammer in your off-hand, causing the dagger to puncture farther hitting a vital point and resulting in a critical hit, This benefit does not activate critical effects. The dagger then becomes stuck in the creature's body. You may then attack the stuck dagger in place of the creature with the weapon for which you have the appropriate weapon focus feat, aiming for the nail vs. the targets Touch AC, if the attack is successful you deal the daggers damage plus the hammer's base damage dice as extra damage to the dagger's. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.

Removing the dagger requires a Heal or Strength check (DC = 10 + Initial Damage Dealt). Regardless if the check if successful or not, the creature takes 1d4 bleed damage every round thereafter. A DC 15 Heal check or any form of magical healing ceases this damage, but only if the dagger has been removed.

Cieyrin
2012-09-11, 07:55 PM
Looking good, though if you want to generic the Weapon Focus, I'd also generic hammer references and possibly specify a light or one-handed bludgeoning MELEE weapon, as you can currently activate it with a firearm, sling or other ranged bludgeoning effect. Maybe you want that, I don't know, just pointing that out. Only other thing is I'd specify using the Weapon Focused bludgeoner to deliver the hammer blows, as again, you limit abuse that way so you don't just drive the nail in and draw a large Earth Breaker and start whaling on him but again, maybe you want that, just pointing that out. My points are minor at this point, really, so it's up to you how much more you want to clean it up. I lean towards making it air-tight but that's me.

ExemplarofAvg
2012-09-11, 09:44 PM
Looking good, though if you want to generic the Weapon Focus, I'd also generic hammer references and possibly specify a light or one-handed bludgeoning MELEE weapon, as you can currently activate it with a firearm, sling or other ranged bludgeoning effect. Maybe you want that, I don't know, just pointing that out. Only other thing is I'd specify using the Weapon Focused bludgeoner to deliver the hammer blows, as again, you limit abuse that way so you don't just drive the nail in and draw a large Earth Breaker and start whaling on him but again, maybe you want that, just pointing that out. My points are minor at this point, really, so it's up to you how much more you want to clean it up. I lean towards making it air-tight but that's me.

[Hammer and Nail] V.5
Prerequisites: Double Slice, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Any Light or One-Handed Hammer)
Benefit: As a Standard action you attempt an attack with an opponent with a dagger, if the attack is successful you follow up with the swing of the hammer in your off-hand, causing the dagger to puncture farther hitting a vital point and resulting in a critical hit, This benefit does not activate critical effects. The dagger then becomes stuck in the creature's body. Afterwards if you use a Hammer for which you have the Weapon Focus feat all attacks will be resolved against the targets touch AC as you strike the nail, if the attack is successful you deal hammer's base damage dice as extra damage to the dagger's. This damage is multiplied on a critical hit.

Removing the dagger requires a Heal or Strength check (DC = 10 + Initial Damage Dealt). Regardless if the check if successful or not, the creature takes 1d4 bleed damage every round thereafter. A DC 15 Heal check or any form of magical healing ceases this damage, but only if the dagger has been removed.
There, I think I have everything covered, I've expanded it a bit, giving the dreaded Power Attack vs. Touch you were worried about, and the ability to use any hammer type weapon after the initial attack.