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Razanir
2012-09-12, 11:23 AM
I saw in one thread (I'll post a link later) someone wondering who kills mage killers. I'll try that as a first homebrew class. The catch is, the only mage killer/anti-caster class I've seen is the one. Can you guys provide preferably homebrew anti-caster classes or at least ones where I don't need a splat book? When I get enough to work from, I'll attempt to make a mage killer killer

Yitzi
2012-09-12, 04:56 PM
A well-designed (i.e. from the homebrewing/balancing standpoint) mage-killer will lose to a fighter (or at least a barbarian).

Saidoro
2012-09-12, 05:51 PM
A well-designed (i.e. from the homebrewing/balancing standpoint) mage-killer will lose to a Wizard
FTFY

Snark aside, this really seems like a bit of an overspecialized concept for anything more than a short prestige class or a feat chain. And even then they'll be chosen more for their general utility or usefulness against other mages than anything else.

Yitzi
2012-09-12, 07:21 PM
FTFY

Then they're not much of a mage-killer, are they?


Snark aside, this really seems like a bit of an overspecialized concept for anything more than a short prestige class or a feat chain.

That raises an interesting idea (one I've been sort of playing with already): a feat chain for fighters (and maybe other classes to a lesser degree) that exists purely to let them beat wizards. (Because imploding the tier system is the most important fix possible.)


And even then they'll be chosen more for their general utility or usefulness against other mages than anything else.

What makes you think a mage killer will himself be a mage? Without homebrew it's probably necessary, but with homebrew you can have mage-killers who are not themselves mages.

Saidoro
2012-09-12, 09:33 PM
3.5 doesn't contain mage-killers. What it has are mage-who-fights-fair-killers. Still, mainly I was making a joke about the unbalanced nature of this game we love so much, I did not intend for that to be taken particularly seriously. And I wasn't thinking the mage-killer had to be a mage, I was thinking that mage killers are sufficiently rare in most settings and most campaigns that I really can't imagine someone investing a great deal of resources solely in fighting them.

Yitzi
2012-09-13, 08:33 AM
3.5 doesn't contain mage-killers. What it has are mage-who-fights-fair-killers.

So maybe the answer isn't to be found in (nonhomebrewed) 3.5.


And I wasn't thinking the mage-killer had to be a mage, I was thinking that mage killers are sufficiently rare in most settings and most campaigns that I really can't imagine someone investing a great deal of resources solely in fighting them.

A well-built setting where mages are powerful will have a lot of people becoming mages, so mage-killers will be effective against a large portion of the enemies they face, hence powerful, hence more effective. Throw in mage-killer-killers who lose to mages, and the system will reach a natural equilibrium (hence balance.)

the_david
2012-09-13, 09:18 AM
Actually, there is the Occult Slayer from Complete Warrior. That might be a good start for a mage-killer.

I'm pretty sure that mage-killer-killers are just assassins, though their spellcasting abilities makes that a risky business.

Jane_Smith
2012-09-13, 09:15 PM
I know of 1 prestige class that is themed as a mage-guardian/mage-killer-killer - The Thayan Knight from complete warrior.

Essentially - the opposite of a mage-hunter is a mage-guardian/support. Someone who cant cast spells themselves but benefits more from them (perhaps acting like a humanoid familiar who can share spells the mage uses on them), or helps the mage from having there spells interrupted via attacks or counterspells, while having the martial skill to hunt down and kill assassins or the strength to fight occult slayers. Sadly the Thayan Knight does not do its job very well, as its only unique feature is it gets better attack/damage if its mage is threatened.

toapat
2012-09-13, 09:37 PM
The Thayan Knight

That is a Mage Puppet

The Anti-Magi classes are:

Occult Slayer (a Barbarian prefered class)
Mage Killer, a Dueling Wizard, which other then actually useful counterspelling, sucks at their job. I forget where i found it
Paladin, Mystic Fire Knight substitution levels

Jane_Smith
2012-09-13, 09:50 PM
I think your confusing this topic/thread for mage-slayers, when were trying to find anti-mage-slayers. Like people who are mages who hunt mage-slayers, or warriors who protect mages, etc. WHY would we care what the anti-mages are, we know about occult slayer/etc already?

Edit: Also using quote-tag for a single word proves you have not really read this thread at all or what I said regarding thayan knight as a mage guardian... :smallsigh:

toapat
2012-09-13, 09:55 PM
I think your confusing this topic/thread for mage-slayers, when were trying to find anti-mage-slayers. Like people who are mages who hunt mage-slayers, or warriors who protect mages, etc. WHY would we care what the anti-mages are, we know about occult slayer/etc already?

Edit: Also using quote-tag for a single word proves you have not really read this thread at all or what I said regarding thayan knight as a mage guardian... :smallsigh:

simple, you cant find the Mage guards without finding the mage slayers.

Thayan Knight is a useless class that doesnt improve the fighter's survivability. It is only a class for a Red Wizard to cast Dominate Person on

and the simple fact is, the mage guards are the mages themselves

bobthe6th
2012-09-13, 09:56 PM
but the mage killer killer invites a mage killer killer killer, which in turn invites a mage killer killer killer killer, ad infinitum... then reality implodes from the density of "killer" repetitions.

Amechra
2012-09-13, 09:57 PM
If you are looking for Mage-Slayers to counter, Realms of Chaos made pretty much the only one that can be beaten up by a fighter while still kicking a wizard's ass every which way to Sunday.

It's called the Abolisher.

So...

You can use that as a starting point to see what kind of stuff that you'll need to counter.

Yitzi
2012-09-14, 06:46 AM
but the mage killer killer invites a mage killer killer killer, which in turn invites a mage killer killer killer killer, ad infinitum... then reality implodes from the density of "killer" repetitions.

The idea of mage killers is that a mage killer killer will lose to a mage, so you get a circle. If the mage killer killer is an existing lower-tier class, you get to implode the tier system, which is great for balance.

toapat
2012-09-14, 10:45 AM
The idea of mage killers is that a mage killer killer will lose to a mage, so you get a circle. If the mage killer killer is an existing lower-tier class, you get to implode the tier system, which is great for balance.

it wouldnt Implode the system. one of the significant problems of the system is the T1's ability to be prepared for everything. Even the Mage slayers.

Occult slayer is only good against mages who dont keep detonation spells (Fireball) prepared, and even then only twice per day.

MFK is great against mages, but has the problem of closing in for the kill. Spellshatter laughs in the face of T1, but you dont get spell resistance to keep you alive while closing in.

Mage Killer doesnt actually make you more effective at killing mages

Abolisher is a Ranger PRC for killing Aberations, not mages

Yitzi
2012-09-14, 01:59 PM
it wouldnt Implode the system. one of the significant problems of the system is the T1's ability to be prepared for everything. Even the Mage slayers.

Then what you're saying isn't "a mage killer would not implode the tier system if it existed", but rather "real mage killers do not, in fact, exist". That's simply a challenge for homebrewers: Build a class that even T1 cannot be prepared for, but will lose to a fighter.

toapat
2012-09-14, 02:30 PM
Then what you're saying isn't "a mage killer would not implode the tier system if it existed", but rather "real mage killers do not, in fact, exist". That's simply a challenge for homebrewers: Build a class that even T1 cannot be prepared for, but will lose to a fighter.

there is a creature in the game able to demolish any mage, it is called the Pseudonatural (Manual of the Planes/SRD version) Tarrasque. it is able to slay the Time Dragon. As a CR 35.

There is no way without Chaingate to kill it.

TuggyNE
2012-09-14, 03:59 PM
there is a creature in the game able to demolish any mage, it is called the Pseudonatural (Manual of the Planes/SRD version) Tarrasque. it is able to slay the Time Dragon. As a CR 35.

There is no way without Chaingate to kill it.

Not to go further off topic, but ... I'm not seeing anything that would really challenge a half-decent mailman Wizard/Sorcerer at level 20. For that matter, a properly buffed CoDzilla, or even a suitably prepared PsyWar, or any of dozens of other builds, could reasonably take it down. (Well, at least far into negative HP, if not actually wishing it to death.)

Yitzi
2012-09-14, 05:25 PM
there is a creature in the game able to demolish any mage, it is called the Pseudonatural (Manual of the Planes/SRD version) Tarrasque. it is able to slay the Time Dragon. As a CR 35.

That's not a mage-killer, that's an overpowered monster. A mage-killer is something that is more effective against mages than against other things.

Also, why would a level 250 wizard not be able to kill a pseudonatural tarrasque quite easily? (And it's far easier if the DM rules that the "keep tarrasque dead" use of wish or miracle is not directly targeting it and therefore SR doesn't apply.)

toapat
2012-09-14, 05:28 PM
Not to go further off topic, but ... I'm not seeing anything that would really challenge a half-decent mailman Wizard/Sorcerer at level 20. For that matter, a properly buffed CoDzilla, or even a suitably prepared PsyWar, or any of dozens of other builds, could reasonably take it down. (Well, at least far into negative HP, if not actually wishing it to death.)

You are looking at the wrong Psuedonatural template then, Hitdice*5 spell resistance, Improved Grapple with devastating strength drain, incredible elemental resistances. Dimension Door at will

sure, it is still slow as hell, on the other hand, it just has to hit you once to ruin you.


That's not a mage-killer, that's an overpowered monster. A mage-killer is something that is more effective against mages than against other things.

Also, why would a level 250 wizard not be able to kill a pseudonatural tarrasque quite easily? (And it's far easier if the DM rules that the "keep tarrasque dead" use of wish or miracle is not directly targeting it and therefore SR doesn't apply.)

its still one of the only things able to ruin spellcasters

because a lvl 250 Wizard or Sorcerer doesnt count, and by that point they have applied the template to themselves.

Yitzi
2012-09-14, 05:35 PM
its still one of the only things able to ruin spellcasters

Maybe one of the only official-book things (other than another spellcaster), but I could write a homebrew class that would demolish spellcasters without being particularly powerful otherwise.


because a lvl 250 Wizard or Sorcerer doesnt count

They certainly do qualify under "any mage". Now, if you wanted to restrict to less than level 100, you should have said so.


and by that point they have applied the template to themselves.

I don't think that's possible.

TuggyNE
2012-09-14, 06:09 PM
You are looking at the wrong Psuedonatural template then, Hitdice*5 spell resistance, Improved Grapple with devastating strength drain, incredible elemental resistances. Dimension Door at will

Yes, that's the one. Mailman ignores SR and resistances, fire immunity only reduces damage by half. Pseudonatural only increases natural armor, which does nothing to touch AC; orb spells are not deflected by the tarrasque's carapace, as they are not rays. Therefore it's a simple matter of either spamming half-damage orb of fire at touch AC 5, or using orb of force for full damage at same touch AC, or using some other orb (cold, perhaps?).

A decent mailman will do enough damage to down Pseudonatural Big T in a few rounds at most, and with proper use of action economy busters quite possibly faster than that; meanwhile, superior invisibility and similar ensures Big T never detects anything except the blasting (pseudonatural adds no sensory abilities, and Scent is nowhere near enough).

In short: Big T has no way to detect the attacker, no way to attack (unless you rule that dimension door lets you appear in empty space, which seems entirely contrary to the general rule of Conjuration), no immunity or necessarily even resistance to the chosen attack form, and no means of avoiding attack.

toapat
2012-09-14, 06:48 PM
Yes, that's the one. Mailman ignores SR and resistances, fire immunity only reduces damage by half. Pseudonatural only increases natural armor, which does nothing to touch AC; orb spells are not deflected by the tarrasque's carapace, as they are not rays. Therefore it's a simple matter of either spamming half-damage orb of fire at touch AC 5, or using orb of force for full damage at same touch AC, or using some other orb (cold, perhaps?).

A decent mailman will do enough damage to down Pseudonatural Big T in a few rounds at most, and with proper use of action economy busters quite possibly faster than that; meanwhile, superior invisibility and similar ensures Big T never detects anything except the blasting (pseudonatural adds no sensory abilities, and Scent is nowhere near enough).

In short: Big T has no way to detect the attacker, no way to attack (unless you rule that dimension door lets you appear in empty space, which seems entirely contrary to the general rule of Conjuration), no immunity or necessarily even resistance to the chosen attack form, and no means of avoiding attack.

He has a touch armor of 10, and can cast Unhallow with gestalted Protection from Energy to negate a single element entirely. Fire is inherently completely useless against Tarrasque, and Shield makes Magic Missiles useless.

Oh, and Invisibility? Doesnt work against Pseudonatural.

As for Dealing with him in a few rounds, i highly doubt that, he has over 1000 HP with that template alone

TuggyNE
2012-09-14, 07:20 PM
He has a touch armor of 10, and can cast Unhallow with gestalted Protection from Energy to negate a single element entirely. Fire is inherently completely useless against Tarrasque, and Shield makes Magic Missiles useless.

As for Dealing with him in a few rounds, i highly doubt that, he has over 1000 HP with that template alone

The basis for the mailman is explained here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer). In short: Searing Spell metamagic turns fire immunity into "take half damage", if you need to use orb of fire. Massive general use of metamagic and reducers produces hundreds or thousands of damage per round, which rapidly overwhelms any sort of ablative defense like protection from energy. Orb of force is not magic missile, and cannot be blocked by shield.


Oh, and Invisibility? Doesnt work against Pseudonatural.

Interesting, but where are you getting that? All I see is that Constant Insight negates miss chances from concealment (including invisibility); that doesn't allow Big T to actually have any idea what square the attacker is in, nor does it offer any good way to attack a flying target 200' in the air.

toapat
2012-09-14, 07:41 PM
Interesting, but where are you getting that? All I see is that Constant Insight negates miss chances from concealment (including invisibility); that doesn't allow Big T to actually have any idea what square the attacker is in, nor does it offer any good way to attack a flying target 200' in the air.

if the enemy is 200 (below even CL0 range of DD) feet above the tarrasque, then he can just DD above the enemy and drop a 35 ton meat comet on the wizard. Oh, and invisiblity wouldnt stop it from visualizing the gnat shooting orbs at it. considering how DD aims, the only thing actually stopping the tarrasque from killing the enemy is whether dropping on someone lets you pull an Attack of Opportunity.

TuggyNE
2012-09-14, 08:09 PM
if the enemy is 200 (below even CL0 range of DD) feet above the tarrasque, then he can just DD above the enemy and drop a 35 ton meat comet on the wizard. Oh, and invisiblity wouldnt stop it from visualizing the gnat shooting orbs at it. considering how DD aims, the only thing actually stopping the tarrasque from killing the enemy is whether dropping on someone lets you pull an Attack of Opportunity.

There are four problems with that. First, pinpointing the square (or even the approximate square) is a lot harder than you seem to think (especially for someone who puts Invisible Spell on their orbs, perhaps for metamagic reduction). Second, as I already alluded to, Conjuration doesn't allow you to conjure things into empty space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration); as far as I know, teleportation does not remove that restriction. Third, use of celerity + dimension door (or your choice of other action economy adjuster, such as contingency or Craft Contingent Spell, but celerity is more sensible); Big T goes splat on the ground, wizard remains untouched and is now in a different spot. Fourth, falling objects have a flat DC 15 reflex to avoid, as found in ... I want to say Heroes of Battle; DC 15 isn't very difficult even for a wizard to make, even without burning resources on it.

As a side note, I seem to have misread the AC entry in Pseudonatural Creature; it doesn't increase natural armor by +35, but gives the better of +35 or existing, which doesn't help Big T much at all (+35 is better than +30, but not by much, and it does nothing for touch AC). Also, I decided to calculate out the Tarrasque's Jump modifier. +28 Str, +4 from increased speed, and no other modifier means it can jump 8 feet vertically with a running start; Colossal size and quadruped form means it can reach a total of 72 feet up. Wewt?

Jane_Smith
2012-09-14, 09:15 PM
This thread did not just derail, it flew off the tracks and went to another planet. Cause a thread seeking/talking about stuff to fight anti-mages totally needed a discussion about anti-mages themselves and builds to screw over casters. -_- Make your own thread ffs.

toapat
2012-09-14, 09:35 PM
There are four problems with that. First, pinpointing the square (or even the approximate square) is a lot harder than you seem to think (especially for someone who puts Invisible Spell on their orbs, perhaps for metamagic reduction). Second, as I already alluded to, Conjuration doesn't allow you to conjure things into empty space (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#conjuration)

1: Interestingly, you dont need to aim DD that precisely, you just have to denote "That Fing Gnat", and it will throw you there.
2: not knowing if it is being hit by spells would be a problem
3: DDoor doesnt have the surface restriction if it is being used for self only, the must be called onto a surface that can support it is for summoning only
4: Not what im referencing. the mage, in a way, leaves the Tarrasque's Threatened Area. Being that the tarrasque just ported into the mage's chest, T knows where the mage is. Does he (T), get an AoO.

@derail: The topic didnt have rails to begin with. No material in 3.5 has a truly effective Mageslayer, because the closest it gets is Paladin's MFK substitution levels, which alone are not enough if the paladin is not a Drow, then, said paladin has to buy off 2 LA, get Mage Slayer, Underdark Knight, a non-suck homebrewed version of Practiced Spellcaster (Twice at that), Sword of the Arcane Order, and Battle Blessing.

That is a highly specialized build that is still able to beat up fighters. Hell, it can beat up anyone, Its hard to kill something underground.

LordErebus12
2012-09-14, 09:55 PM
This topic that spawned off my topic is very redundant, but highly entertaining.

The quintessential mage-killer killer is forever the DPS character. rogue's shred through the mage killers without a moment's notice. While the tank protects the mage, the DPS character sneaks up and slabs the mage hunter. The concept of a mage killer is like the boogie man for casters, and any caster wandering on its own is SOL when encountering one.

toapat
2012-09-14, 10:07 PM
This topic that spawned off my topic is very redundant, but highly entertaining.

The quintessential mage-killer killer is forever the DPS character. rogue's shred through the mage killers without a moment's notice. While the tank protects the mage, the DPS character sneaks up and slabs the mage hunter. The concept of a mage killer is like the boogie man for casters, and any caster wandering on its own is SOL when encountering one.

its kinda hard to stab the Underdark MFK when they have Earthglide. Spellcasters cant even fight it. You have a paladin Shatter-Smite from underneath your square, her Con mod lets her stay under for a few minutes, a Bottle of Endless Air indefinitely, and no spell can directly hit her. You have to summon an earth elemental, and even then you have MFK's casting debuff to deal with.

TuggyNE
2012-09-14, 10:57 PM
Further off-topic discussion should probably be directed to the spin-off thread.


1: Interestingly, you dont need to aim DD that precisely, you just have to denote "That Fing Gnat", and it will throw you there.

Not correct. Dimension door is aimed either in a direction (and presumably distance) or by visualizing the area. Neither is possible if you do not know the target any more accurately than "that spot where an invisible jerk is, wherever it might be". DD is not a Divination spell; if you don't know the location you want to go to, you can't use DD to find out. (This is why it does not target "One creature you wish to arrive next to".)

You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction.


3: DDoor doesnt have the surface restriction if it is being used for self only, the must be called onto a surface that can support it is for summoning only


A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

I suppose it's arguable, since it doesn't actually say "You must transport yourself to an open location on a surface capable of supporting yourself." However, it does certainly apply to all Conjuration spells otherwise.


4: Not what im referencing. the mage, in a way, leaves the Tarrasque's Threatened Area. Being that the tarrasque just ported into the mage's chest, T knows where the mage is. Does he (T), get an AoO.

No, he does not, because celerity is an immediate action, and resolves before the triggering action does. That's assuming sufficient precision on the part of the dimension door, which (if you'll pardon the pun) is unsupportable.

Big T, without some further work, does not know where an invisible attacker is outside of scent range. Without that knowledge, T is unable to accurately teleport, or even jump, and is therefore basically helpless. Assuming pinpointing happened somehow by accident, the Tarrasque would have only one option: attempt to fall on top of the enemy and hope it fails its DC 15 Reflex check and has no quick way to get out of the way. It's unclear whether an Int 3 creature would come up with this plan, but we'll say it could. Unfortunately, even a 14 Dex Wizard with nothing but a +5 resistance bonus to saves will pass the save on anything but a 1.

the_david
2012-09-19, 02:22 AM
I just had the insidious idea to make an NPC that wants to destroy all magic items. Not exactly a mage killer, but it is fun.

erasedisknow
2017-02-15, 07:54 PM
:roach: Pun-Pun kills all the things. :roach: