Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)

[Lord_Gareth]

So, my friends and I often debate the results of a single WAAAAGH! landing on various planets in various universes, but we came to a standstill on this one. Your thoughts?

The scenario goes as follows:

Shortly before the events of Wings of Liberty (SC II), a standard-sized WAAAAGH! impacts with the Zerg-held world of Tarsonis. Is the Swarm capable of either slaying or assimilating the WAAAGH! before it can take the planet and begin invading other worlds in the sector?

[Brother Oni]

How are the Orks getting to Tarsonis? Kroozers, a space hulk or lots of Roks?

What's the Waaagh's composition? An invasion force involving gargants making planetfall is a significantly bigger threat than lots of roks full of boyz, although easier to root out.

We need more info on the Waaagh as while there is a standard size for one (there's a critical mass number of orks required to trigger it), there's there's no such thing as a standard one.

[Lord_Gareth]

How are the Orks getting to Tarsonis? Kroozers, a space hulk or lots of Roks?

What's the Waaagh's composition? An invasion force involving gargants making planetfall is a significantly bigger threat than lots of roks full of boyz, although easier to root out.

We need more info on the Waaagh as while there is a standard size for one (there's a critical mass number of orks required to trigger it), there's there's no such thing as a standard one.

Hrm, interesting. Let us say a load of primarily Boyz (pre-equipped with some looted vehicles) delivered primarily through Roks, and then we can alter the scenario from there after we hash it out some.

[Fan]

The Zerg have air power no contest with scourges, and devourers. However, against any fortified ground position or position backed with vehicles, there's not a lot the organic targets can do against bolters. The standard ammunition literally is designed to destroy the enemy they're facing.

The only thing I have to say on that, is that well, none of their fire power really matters aside from that.

Squiggoths are bigger, nastier, and usually gun laden ultralisks. Bolters are many times more powerful than standard terran weaponry that shreds through zerglings, and the looted vehicle firepower that they bring to bear is easily more than enough to shred through whatever siege tanks can bring to bear.

Hydralisks don't do enough damage to the Ork type targets at range, and while Roach's DO possess the firepower they lack range, being limited to a distance of but a few meters.

The only question is if the Ork line up here is Bad Moonz or some other more vehicle reliant WAAAAAGH! because they wouldn't be able to keep up a protracted conflict without Gargantz and Squiggoths.

It also depends on the Warboss leading it, as it can range from "Mentally Retarded" to "Brutal Kunning."

All this said, Starcraft is still marginally better written than any Ork centric 40k fiction I've ever read. The Zerg are just more interesting opponents.

[Silverraptor]

Yeah. The problem with the 40k universe is if you can survive a week, then you're really badass and invincible in practically every other universe. The Orks would probably have the advantage due to them being part fungus and easily becomes an investation, even for the zerg.

One thing I can say though, the Orks will still love having the fight regardless of who wins.

[The Glyphstone]

Probably depends on the density of the swarm, as well. Tarsonis was infested, but it was never a core hive world like Char. Zerg are best compared to a weaker, paler strain of Tyranids, so if the Orks didn't bring enough ammo with them (they're not going to find any reloads on a Tarsonis, and WAAAAUGH power can't actually spawn ammo out of thin air because of how it works), they'll probably get overrun in the end. Because Zerg have the air, and thus the ability to bombard with either Guardian spores or Broodlings beyond the ranges the Orks will be able to (accurately) retaliate, I gotta give this to the native defenders in the end*.

Creep will grow back over the area they had landed in, and for the next few hundred years, every Zerg hatched on Tarsonis will be an odd shade of green.


*That doesn't mean the Orks lose though, remember. If they win, they win. If they're dead, it doesn't count. If they run away, they can always come back and try again.:smallsmile:

[Starbuck_II]

What about Lurkers? Can Orks even see them?

[The Glyphstone]

...let's not start the Starcraft Cloaking/Hidden Units debate all over again.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Was that the one between ...Terrans and Star Wars Universe?

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, only a few weeks ago, though there it was Starcraft Cloaking vs. Star Wars Cloak Detection. It was a mess.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, only a few weeks ago, though there it was Starcraft Cloaking vs. Star Wars Cloak Detection. It was a mess.

But Jedi at least make sense in being able to detect cloaked units.

Not sure if the Empire could... But I don't feel like debating issue.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh I remember, I tend to lurk the vs. 40k threads and that one was pretty interesting all things considered.

[Fan]

Lurkers were a phased out strain well before Wings of Liberty though.

And well, the only reason I give Zerg the air is their ability to mass. Fighta Bombas are infinitely more destructive than a Mutalisk, but with their anti air suicide units, devourers, mutalisks, and then you have Hydras, and a multitude of other specific anti air measures it really just goes to who can fill the skies the thickest.

And the Zerg win that in spades.

It's the ground battle they lose.

[The Glyphstone]

You may be giving the Orks too much credit in that ground battle. You're assuming Orks have bolters as standard, which is far from universal. The 'default' Ork weapon, as far as they have one ("Slugga/Shoota" can describe pretty much any gun), is much more likely to be a traditional slugthrower, even if it is firing slugs the size of walnuts. Compared to both Space Marine bolters and Terran Marine hypersonic gauss rifles, the Orks are coming off decidedly on the short end of the stick in terms of raw firepower - which is fitting, the Orks use volume to make up for things like accuracy or penetration.

Squiggoths are more like Ultralisks with guns and worse melee - they can stomp all over stuff, but the 'Lisks were bred for being living siege rams, one charging with its head down is going to plow right through anything an Ork force is going to be able to block it with, and an Ultralisk in melee is a scary, scary thing. They might have brought some looted vehicles with them, but looted tanks are notoriously unreliable, and they're unlikely to have them in any overwhelming number, so it's merely an advantage rather than a game-breaker. Zerg unquestionably lose the range advantage, but that might not be very relevant with Ork 'accuracy' and their innate preference to engage as close to point-blank melee as they can anyways.

If it's a Flash Gitz or Bad Moons-heavy WAAAUGH, I'd give the Orks a serious fighting chance. A mixed or un-affiliated one, though, is more likely to end up playing into the Zerg's claws by voluntarily closing to melee where their ranged disadvantage is mutually negated.

[Traab]

...let's not start the Starcraft Cloaking/Hidden Units debate all over again.

This is a different thing though. It isnt a tech based stealth, its them hiding underground. Can the orks detect stuff hiding in the ground? Or would they have to blow up the earth in the general vicinity of where the lurker seems to be attacking them? Honestly, I wouldnt even try to claim that it requires anything all that special to detect the hidden zerg, they just burrow into the ground, they arent blocking out infrared or radiowaves or whatever technobabble electronic stealth the terrans and protoss use.

[Fan]

You may be giving the Orks too much credit in that ground battle. You're assuming Orks have bolters as standard, which is far from universal. The 'default' Ork weapon, as far as they have one ("Slugga/Shoota" can describe pretty much any gun), is much more likely to be a traditional slugthrower, even if it is firing slugs the size of walnuts. Compared to both Space Marine bolters and Terran Marine hypersonic gauss rifles, the Orks are coming off decidedly on the short end of the stick in terms of raw firepower - which is fitting, the Orks use volume to make up for things like accuracy or penetration.

Squiggoths are more like Ultralisks with guns and worse melee - they can stomp all over stuff, but the 'Lisks were bred for being living siege rams, one charging with its head down is going to plow right through anything an Ork force is going to be able to block it with, and an Ultralisk in melee is a scary, scary thing. They might have brought some looted vehicles with them, but looted tanks are notoriously unreliable, and they're unlikely to have them in any overwhelming number, so it's merely an advantage rather than a game-breaker. Zerg unquestionably lose the range advantage, but that might not be very relevant with Ork 'accuracy' and their innate preference to engage as close to point-blank melee as they can anyways.

If it's a Flash Gitz or Bad Moons-heavy WAAAUGH, I'd give the Orks a serious fighting chance. A mixed or un-affiliated one, though, is more likely to end up playing into the Zerg's claws by voluntarily closing to melee where their ranged disadvantage is mutually negated.

I've read the Starcraft Books.

In one of the novels, a team of Zealots (4) takes down an ultralisk due to it's lack of manueverability, and weapons aside from it's tusks, and they are a solely melee unit with no method of ranged attack.

If it gets going at ramming speed, and isn't stopped by the concussive firepower that the orks can throw out? Sure, but with over penetration surely being in the orks favor + explosive rounds + more advanced flame thrower technology (if only given the radioactive nature of the promethium used as standard in ork flamer fuel.) I'd hazard that they can melt enemies just as efficiently as Terrans do with having naturally more durable soldiers, and the addition of Mekboyz.

Also, the Ork firepower generally delivers a round that explodes or have increased armor penetration to compensate according to the Ork Codex entry on Shootahs, so they can be assumed to be around the same usefulness as a bolter around half the time.

The ultralisks hide though doesn't mean a lot when explosive payloads are delivered inside it, and 40k firepower generally lines up in documented feats with what the Gauss Rifle has been able to do.

[The Glyphstone]

I can easily see 4 Zealots taking out an Ultralisk, but they're basically Eldar On Steroids anyways, and 'Lisks aren't meant to fight individual agile enemies that way, they're ramming engines with giant scythe-tusks for carving up massed opponents - Orks are probably the best 40K opponent for Ultralisks in that regard aside from Tyranids, the Zerg opposite number (and Carnifexes would probably beat them).

If we use game/codex stats as a (very rough) comparison, Shoota rounds - on average - have the same destructive strength as a bolter round with a slightly lesser ability to penetrate armor, so maybe 1/3 of shootas would be bolter-quality firepower. You did point out that Ultralisks and Squiggoths are built on roughly the same scale, and it takes a heck of a lot of bolter/shoota rounds to bring down a Squiggoth. Then again, they're big enough that it'll be easy even for Orks to hit, so possibly a wash.

I still think that the Orks will end up at a disadvantage because of their propensity and preference to settle things 'The Orky Way' - in melee. Their guns are better, but not enough better that they can give up their numerical weight, and it's usually un-Orky to build fortifications and hide behind them. Eventually, burrowed Baneling bombs will teach them to be cautious whenever they venture outside whatever earthworks they've built, but whether that happens before or after they've committed to a massive and possibly decisive brawl is uncertain.

[Fan]

Howling Banshee's are a BIT better than Bog Standard Zealots (Not that one can call a Zealot bog standard.), if only because power weapons can soul rape in an Eldar's hand.

However, you're right, that's why I said the warboss would be the deciding factor.

Someone like Ghaz'gkull would realize that they need to build up a huge squiggoth, stompahz, and gargant force to take a zerg held world, and that anti air defenses would be chief in getting those defenses set up.

However, Zerg are one thing. Squishy, whereas Orks have an almost retarded amount of durability, having no actual anatomy to speak of.

[Lord_Gareth]

Is it the opinion of the community that the conflict would last long enough for the Swarm to begin assimilating Ork strains, and what effect do we feel this would have? Zerg assimilation is quite the bit different from tyranids (who don't actually assimilate), Borg (who would probably be psychically eaten by the Orks) or the Flood (you're kidding, right?) insofar as the Swarm incorporates whatever's beneficial into the Swarm as a whole and then phases out things it doesn't want - possibly including the "programmed" behaviors that make Orks so difficult to control psionically.

[The Glyphstone]

Nah - even Tyranids take years/decades/centuries to incorporate entirely new strains into their metageonome, and based on what I remember from the Starcraft 1 manual, the Zerg work on a similarly long-term scale. Besides, "Swarm incorporates whatever's beneficial into the Swarm as a whole and then phases out things it doesn't want " is pretty much a word-for-word description of how the Tyranids incorporate beneficial genetic material into their swarms.



However, Zerg are one thing. Squishy, whereas Orks have an almost retarded amount of durability, having no actual anatomy to speak of.

Zerg aren't that squishy - they do have armor plates and stuff, though they are more squishy than Orks - not that Orks don't have anatomy, they're just massively redundant and highly resilient. They still have arms and legs and stuff, just that cutting off an Ork's arm is good reason for him to beat you to death with his own severed limb, and decapitating an Ork is fatal unless a Doc gets to him quick enough to sew it back on to his body. They've got digestive tracts and internal organs (sometimes, this is another thing that seems to vary widely by edition), but again, losing them or suffering gut wounds isn't incapacitating like it is for a human.

[Tiki Snakes]

To be fair, chances are they only have intestines so that when they are fighting to decide who is the bigger and orkier, the winner can rip them out of the loser.


As for incorporating Ork traits, that strikes me as not a guaranteed thing. They are after all pretty significantly different to anything else the Zerg have encountered. It could result in tougher Zerg, is unlikely to result in smarter Zerg, or it could end up creating a new ravening hoarde of buglike Orks who simply end up carrying on doing things exactly as Orks always do, but with more gribblyness.

In general terms, It's not like Orks haven't fought Tyranids before. I'm sure I heard about some thing where a Tyranid fleet was directed into the path of an Ork Waaagh and the result of the battle was something like; there is no result yet, they're still going.

[Renegade Paladin]

We already know how this turns out because the Zerg are a direct ripoff of the Tyranids, who the Orks already fight. :smalltongue: Namely, they have an extremely drawn-out stalemate in which the Orks get bigger because they're fighting all the time and the Tyranids Zerg make bigger and nastier warbeasts to deal with it and so on and so forth.

[Tvtyrant]

To be fair, chances are they only have intestines so that when they are fighting to decide who is the bigger and orkier, the winner can rip them out of the loser.


As for incorporating Ork traits, that strikes me as not a guaranteed thing. They are after all pretty significantly different to anything else the Zerg have encountered. It could result in tougher Zerg, is unlikely to result in smarter Zerg, or it could end up creating a new ravening hoarde of buglike Orks who simply end up carrying on doing things exactly as Orks always do, but with more gribblyness.

In general terms, It's not like Orks haven't fought Tyranids before. I'm sure I heard about some thing where a Tyranid fleet was directed into the path of an Ork Waaagh and the result of the battle was something like; there is no result yet, they're still going.

Wasn't that when the Blood Ravens diverted a Tyrannid fleet into one of the Ork empires, and the result is warbosses the size of mechs or some such? The Orks on the planet being invaded cannot reproduce because their spores are being eaten by Tyrannid cells, but Orks from surronding planets come join "da gud fight" on a daily basis.

[GloatingSwine]

Zerg are best compared to a weaker, paler strain of Tyranids, so if the Orks didn't bring enough ammo with them (they're not going to find any reloads on a Tarsonis, and WAAAAUGH power can't actually spawn ammo out of thin air because of how it works), they'll probably get overrun in the end.

If da boyz didn't pack enuff bullets for dere shootas dis is gonna be a disappointinly quiet fight...

Remember that orky shooting is about 90% enthusiasm, 10% competence, and is really only intended to make an impressive amount of noise before gettin down to some real fightin wiv yer choppa.

[Fan]

If da boyz didn't pack enuff bullets for dere shootas dis is gonna be a disappointinly quiet fight...

Remember that orky shooting is about 90% enthusiasm, 10% competence, and is really only intended to make an impressive amount of noise before gettin down to some real fightin wiv yer choppa.

Really depends on the Orks that are in use here.

There ARE factions of Orks that forgo ranged weaponry entirely, there is a reason they aren't as big as Ghaz'gkull or the Ork empire that focuses solely on burning things, or the Bad Moonz who focus exclusively on vehicle combat.

If an all melee WAAAAAGH! comes in with a Warboss who lacks the Brutal Kunnin to properly handle this drops in?

Assimilation.

If a dedicated vehicle WAAAAAAGH! comes in with plenty of mech boyz to loot old terran equipment.

Victory.

People are treating this like it's on Char, but a crucial thing about Tarsonis is that it used to be a Terran held world, and the Terrans have come back to fight on it numerous times.

I'd imagine there are even a few battle cruisers left to be lootable given the zerg's policy of leaving wreckage around and not giving a flip about machines.

/Looted Battlecruisers ohgodwhy.

I can only imagine looted Valkyries, probably end up being called Deff Screamerz or something because of the sound of all those missiles firing at once.

[Lord_Gareth]

I seem to remember an SC novel - wanna say Shadow of the Xel'Naga - that featured the creation of a new combat-ready strain within a single Brood in less than a month's time. Can anyone confirm if this is canon?

[Tvtyrant]

I would probably give it to the Orks. A Waaagh! grows in size as it continues, which means that the Zerg would have to wrap it up immediately or they would be find themselves fighting an ever growing conflict.

And the Zerg are in a particularly bad place, since their biggest advantage is large numbers of melee units. This also happens to be the biggest advantage of the Orks, which even if they have parity makes it unlikely the Zerg will easily dislodge the Orks. As the Orks continue to gain in size and numbers the Zerg would fall back, which would increase the power of the Waaagh! until it became a green screaming tidal wave.

[ChaosLord29]

The only way I see this shaking down is the Zerg incorporating the Orks into the Swarm.

Why you ask? Because a lot of Orks are going to die, are going to be slaughtered and devoured every which way and how, that the Zerg has at their disposal, given the propensity for Orks to readily go into any sort of combat guns blazing at point blank range and giving up their greatest tactical advantage over the forces of the Zerg at large. Not to say that the Orks aren't devoid of tactics entirely, just their standard 'Get em lads' is not going to be particularly effective since they're facing an enemy that can reproduce as fast, if not faster than them and does not have to rely on salvaging equipment for weapons and armor (they just grow it).

Assuming no particularly crafty and potent Warboss makes his fame by leading this particular Waagh! to success over the force of the Queen of Blades, I'm thinking that the Orks will more or less be 'handled' by the Zerg. Perhaps not eliminated or truly wiped out, but that their numbers will be kept manageable.

Now, all that said, I would actually call having the Ork DNA incorporated into the Swarm, a win for the Orks! Again, you ask why, and that is because, that's going to potentially make the Zerg considerably more Ork-like . . .

[Tvtyrant]

The problem with arguing that the Zerg will simply eat the Orks is it implies frequent successes before the feeding can occur. Unless the Zerg are taking little bites as they go, they are going to need fair amounts of undisturbed time to feed. This implies that they drive back the Orks before feeding, or destroy them entirely. If the Orks win the Zerg can't get to the bodies, because they are behind the frontline (and probably fed to the Orks' Squiggogs).

[The Glyphstone]

I would probably give it to the Orks. A Waaagh! grows in size as it continues, which means that the Zerg would have to wrap it up immediately or they would be find themselves fighting an ever growing conflict.

And the Zerg are in a particularly bad place, since their biggest advantage is large numbers of melee units. This also happens to be the biggest advantage of the Orks, which even if they have parity makes it unlikely the Zerg will easily dislodge the Orks. As the Orks continue to gain in size and numbers the Zerg would fall back, which would increase the power of the Waaagh! until it became a green screaming tidal wave.

Waaaughs don't grow spontaneously, though - their 'growth' is by attracting more warbands and smaller Waaaughs are reinforcements. Individual Orks might become bigger and stronger in response to the fight, but their numbers won't multiple appreciably without additional forces. The Ork life cycle is actually rather slow in regards to growing new orks from spores, and likely much slower than the time it takes to gestate a Zerg larvae into a new combat organism. If the two sides are calling in outside reinforcements in that manner, the Orks are going to get flattened under the weight of the entire Swarm, and if it's limited to on-planet attrition, the Zerg can replace their casualties faster than the Orks can.

[Fan]

Waaaughs don't grow spontaneously, though - their 'growth' is by attracting more warbands and smaller Waaaughs are reinforcements. Individual Orks might become bigger and stronger in response to the fight, but their numbers won't multiple appreciably without additional forces. The Ork life cycle is actually rather slow in regards to growing new orks from spores, and likely much slower than the time it takes to gestate a Zerg larvae into a new combat organism. If the two sides are calling in outside reinforcements in that manner, the Orks are going to get flattened under the weight of the entire Swarm, and if it's limited to on-planet attrition, the Zerg can replace their casualties faster than the Orks can.

Well it depends on whether you go by fluff, or in game.

By both in game mechanics, Orks and Zerg grow within seconds, the difference being that in the game mechanics Orks spawn in entire squads already ready to go.

If we go by fluff, both takes weeks to months to grow at any appreciable rate with orkish true regeneration coming in at the yearly period.

Zerg, from gestating their new brood, and Orks from drawing in more Orks from the WAAAAAAAAGH! and their spore replenishment.

In raw man of the line durability? I gotta give it to the Orks, a lack of definable anatomy, extreme endurance, and physical strength exceeding that of Terran Marines (Just going by the higher end lifting and resisting feats documented in fluff. An armored Terran Marine's lifting capacity caps out of the tonnage range, whereas a Space Marine can physically lift a Lemann Russ armored given proper leverage, and the equivalency of Orks to Space Marines in most physical attributes.)

However, they lack all the decidedly "killy bits" as default to compare to anything more than a Zergling naked.

I'd hazard that an Ork equipped with a shootah could easily compare to a Stim'd marine though, with the slightly lower rate of fire being compensated for in raw explosive force, and a big shootah going even further than that.

[The Glyphstone]

For firepower, sure, but the difference in relative accuracy is going to go heavily against the Ork in that comparison - his bullet weight and rate of fire might equal the stimmed Marine, but in terms of rounds-on-target he's going to be far behind, so overall offensive effectiveness will take a hit.

[Fan]

For firepower, sure, but the difference in relative accuracy is going to go heavily against the Ork in that comparison - his bullet weight and rate of fire might equal the stimmed Marine, but in terms of rounds-on-target he's going to be far behind, so overall offensive effectiveness will take a hit.

Well, that and the problem with hyper sonic spikes is that they are designed for penetration, in most cinematics they simply go THROUGH the zerg, causing no lasting internal damage to creatures with minor regeneration.

A round that nests itself inside the creature and then explodes only needs 1 hit to kill, and that's what the difference would be between a marine and an ork.

That, and the ork isn't made out of paper.

[Tvtyrant]

If the two sides are calling in outside reinforcements in that manner, the Orks are going to get flattened under the weight of the entire Swarm, and if it's limited to on-planet attrition, the Zerg can replace their casualties faster than the Orks can.

Can they? Where are they getting the biomass to do so? The biggest argument I have seen so far is that they will eat their dead/the Ork dead, but that just means that the Orks need to continuously advance. As long as the Orks don't allow the Zerg time to feed, they are locked into a 0 sum game. In such a scenario the Orks would win because they rapidly get stronger as they fight, and would have the bodies of their brethren to eat (they are made of the exact same substance as their food). The opposite is true of course, all the Zerg need to do is win battles to recover. So the wars outcome is based around whoever wins the majority of the early battles, and I would give that to the Orks.

Orks are by and large tougher than Zerg and they can recover from any wound (as long as they win the battle and can get themselves stitched back together). They have mechs which can be repaired via repainting them, and magic guns that don't need real ammo (the fluff says that many Ork bolters are nothing more than a box of metal with nails inside, which means you don't need complex manufacturing to reload them).

Invading groups almost always have the upper hand in the beginning due to concentration of force, which means that the Orks have the advantage in the pivotal early battles. If they win the early engagements they have removed the biomass that drives the Zerg, strengthened the psychic energies of their Waaagh!, and gained in physical size and strength.

[Kitten Champion]

The Zerg, to my knowledge, do not eat. They convert raw materials directly into the creep that sustains them.

[The Glyphstone]

Orks are by and large tougher than Zerg and they can recover from any wound (as long as they win the battle and can get themselves stitched back together). They have mechs which can be repaired via repainting them, and magic guns that don't need real ammo (the fluff says that many Ork bolters are nothing more than a box of metal with nails inside, which means you don't need complex manufacturing to reload them).


Though those bolters would shoot nails, not bolt shells, unless the latest version of the Orks changed how WAAAUGH power acts radically. As I always understood it, Orks believing something works or is true can become so by collective psychic power if enough Orks believe this is true, but that has its limitations. For example, guns need bullets, and what you put into the gun is what comes out when you shoot it - every Ork knows these simple things. One Ork might think that he can load nails and shoot explosive bullets, but his reality is going to lose against the reality of the rest of his species. WAAAAUGH power is one of those things that tends to be exaggerated beyond what canon actually depicts it as; Ork machinery does work, it's just extremely crude and tends to explode/malfunction/backfire for any non-Ork by simple virtue of the Ork's faith that it will work properly.

An Ork's gun won't jam, though, because Orks don't consider the possibility that'll happen, and their bullets will hit faster and harder than they should, or explode disproportionately to their payload, again because that's what Orks believe bullets will do. A particularly massive WAAAAUGH might get shootas that fire more bullets than they're actually loaded with, as long as they are being reloaded - the Ork knows his gun needs bullets and that he does have to put more in every so often, but can't be bothered to count how many he's actually dumping into the ammo hopper.



The Zerg, to my knowledge, do not eat. They covert raw materials directly into the creep that sustains them.

This, too. The Zerg don't need to actually win the battle, they just need to spread Creep out over the battlefield after they win or lose. Unless the Orks happen to have a brainstorm and use flamers to beat back the Creep (and roast their own dead in the process), anything left on the field will get re-absorbed and re-purposed.

[Coidzor]

This, too. The Zerg don't need to actually win the battle, they just need to spread Creep out over the battlefield after they win or lose. Unless the Orks happen to have a brainstorm and use flamers to beat back the Creep (and roast their own dead in the process), anything left on the field will get re-absorbed and re-purposed.

Creep requires structures to promulgate it though, and so the zerg would need to go around the lines or manage to have the orks completely ignore their structures.

I guess really it depends upon the savviness of whatever is controlling the zerg on Tarsonis.

I guess this is the era before brood mothers but after Zerg Queens started getting more autonomy/control? :smallconfused:

[The Glyphstone]

Creep requires structures to promulgate it though, and so the zerg would need to go around the lines or manage to have the orks completely ignore their structures.

I guess really it depends upon the savviness of whatever is controlling the zerg on Tarsonis.

I guess this is the era before brood mothers but after Zerg Queens started getting more autonomy/control? :smallconfused:

Creep tumors?:smallconfused: I guess their 'stealth' might be just being big blobs of creep and hard to distinguish from all the rest of the creep around them...

[Traab]

Creep requires structures to promulgate it though, and so the zerg would need to go around the lines or manage to have the orks completely ignore their structures.

I guess really it depends upon the savviness of whatever is controlling the zerg on Tarsonis.

I guess this is the era before brood mothers but after Zerg Queens started getting more autonomy/control? :smallconfused:

Well, there are ways around that. Encircle and build creep colonies as far away as they can, while still being close enough to encroach on ork territory. Then start closing in. Creep spreads pretty far away from the source over time. Keep evolving the colonies into sunken and spore and building more another step or two closer and you have a nice set of self defending bunkers that can kill orks and if they die close enough, absorb them into the creep. If they do it fast enough, the zerg would have a solid grouping of colonies before the creep even starts reaching ork turf and warning them. By then it would be too late to stop it short of a full out assault that would end in tons of deaths, on the creep.

[Tvtyrant]

I still think the creep strategy relies overly on static lines of battle, but I concede that the Orks are probably not as likely to win as I believe. It's too bad there is no way to test it, but such is life.

[Coidzor]

Creep turtling just feels wrong though. :smalleek:

[Kitten Champion]

Overlords can spew creep underneath them. It's how you place creep/spore colonies or nydus canals in tactically useful areas without building a whole Hatchery.

I suppose, this versus depends on how competent the Orks are in tactical thinking.

fortifications can be bypassed using burrowed units like Roaches, Overlord drops, and Nydus Canals. Infestors can take out Squiggoths using a Neural Parasites. Poor aim does not bode well when fighting self-destructive Banelings or small and cheetah-like Zerglings.

You can take out a substantially larger Zerg force with adequate fortifications which are properly situated and protected with a few defenders. That is, if you know what to look for, and aren't expecting to repopulate your army faster than them.

[Fan]

Well, there are ways around that. Encircle and build creep colonies as far away as they can, while still being close enough to encroach on ork territory. Then start closing in. Creep spreads pretty far away from the source over time. Keep evolving the colonies into sunken and spore and building more another step or two closer and you have a nice set of self defending bunkers that can kill orks and if they die close enough, absorb them into the creep. If they do it fast enough, the zerg would have a solid grouping of colonies before the creep even starts reaching ork turf and warning them. By then it would be too late to stop it short of a full out assault that would end in tons of deaths, on the creep.

Sunken and Spore colonies no longer spread creep.

They are now Spine, and Spore colonies and have been instead been bred to serve as mobile defense emplacements.

Also, Ork Boyz squads totally come with burnahs ANYTIME they face nid squads, or any massed faction.

I'd hazard burnahs, and shootahs would be the standard issue for any savvy warboss.

As for defenses, part of the ork mentality revolves around "Boss Poles" so I'd imagine they'd follow standard doctrine of setting up an orky camp the moment they cleared their landing zone.

There's still the issue of Looted siege tanks, valkyries, and battle cruisers that haven't been addressed. Valkyries were to the point in Brood War were even like, 7 of them gave you the air against squads of 20-30 mutalisks.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, given that burny is right up there with shooty and choppy on the list of things orks love, they'd definitely have a fighting chance at this.

I mean, I can see a Power-Klaw'd nob ripping up an Ultralisk pretty easily, since Power Klaws are essentially lightsaber hands. Lightsaber hands on huge, incredibly strong melee specialists, backed up by flamethrowers and Flash Gitz seems like a winning combination; although admittedly I'm not sure how many Boyz can cram into a Rok, so the Zerg might have it just on the numbers game.

I feel like the "Zerg scourge means always air superiority" is overstated, since that's never true in the games, even when you're invading char.

[Fan]

Yeah, given that burny is right up there with shooty and choppy on the list of things orks love, they'd definitely have a fighting chance at this.

I mean, I can see a Power-Klaw'd nob ripping up an Ultralisk pretty easily, since Power Klaws are essentially lightsaber hands. Lightsaber hands on huge, incredibly strong melee specialists, backed up by flamethrowers and Flash Gitz seems like a winning combination; although admittedly I'm not sure how many Boyz can cram into a Rok, so the Zerg might have it just on the numbers game.

I feel like the "Zerg scourge means always air superiority" is overstated, since that's never true in the games, even when you're invading char.

Well, it's more combined with Devourers, and this is entirely contingent on this being a Rok only invasion.

No Kroozers or it's a sweep. A lance fire sweep as hellfire rains down from space in quantities starcraft has never seen or thought of.

[Rejakor]

Well, people don't seem to be taking some stuff into account, namely.

Orks don't run out of bullets. They have a group unconscious. If they need bullets for shootey, more and more orks start making bullets instead of doing other orky things (raising squigs, fighting, fighting, repairing/making vehicles) etc. It's not just mekboys, mekboys are just necessary for the larger/largest vehicles like gargants (and then, you only need like one mekboy, it's just you need a grand mekboy or 4 out of 5 gargants explode when first powered up - orks don't care, though).

The Zerg are used to fighting sane opponents. One of the biggest advantages of the zerg is their coordination and control, they don't fight unless they can human wave the enemy to death, and they are not used to fighting something as well or better coordinated them. Ork battle strategies are not strategy as we know it, they have no leaders, poor communication, poor everything, but they always show up in the right place at exactly the right time. That is because they are psychic, and have a group unconscious that guides them to the right place in nearly any battle, and they are too dumb to ignore what their unconscious urges send them towards.

Orks don't just get bigger when they fight, they make more orks. Ork reproduction is directly linked to conflict. Also, ork spores survive tyranid biomass extraction (although they can't grow without biomass) and imperium virus bombing - i'm guessing zerg creep wouldn't faze them unduly. There is a reason when faced with orks every foe of the orks works to wipe them out as fast as possible - when you don't, you end up with more orks than when you started with, and they're bigger, and their tech works better (not only do the mekboyz build bigger stronger stuff to fight bigger stronger opponents, their psychic powers (that power their tech) amp up from conflict). The Zerg tend towards slow destruction of enemies on the ground, and to prefer to build up than to throw everything into an attack.

The less orks there are, the more kunning they get. This is again why you don't want to kill them slowly.

Orks in melee combat get stronger and faster and more killey the longer the combat goes on. Even tyranids tend to lose, according to fluff, if they let the orks get their choppas wet. They are literally 'unstoppable once they get going', which is why everyone goes out of their way to not let them get going. And that's not in terms of just numbers, it's in terms of individual combat potential.

Orks live everywhere. Everywhere. Sure, some land on the zerg planet and the zerg kill them all fast because they are apparently awesome and know all about orks, but there are now orks in their asteroid belt, and orks on all the other planets in the system, and orks in huge roks circling the sun and some other orks on their way to other systems, and some orks in functioning kroozers warping around the place on tradin mishuns or explorin' or whatever else.



If you're going to look at a grand conflict like this, you have to look at the fluff of the races and not just their on battlefield stats. What generally makes orks stop fighting is when every ork dies which whole races have specialized UNITS for doing (the Codex Astartes apparently has a whole section on how to fight orks without just making more orks), or when they actually bugger off and leave because the enemy 'aren't fightin' fun like'. Literally, if a conflict is good or fun, orks will just keep popping out of the ground and anywhere else nearby to keep the fun coming.

[Traab]

Sunken and Spore colonies no longer spread creep.

They are now Spine, and Spore colonies and have been instead been bred to serve as mobile defense emplacements.

Also, Ork Boyz squads totally come with burnahs ANYTIME they face nid squads, or any massed faction.

I'd hazard burnahs, and shootahs would be the standard issue for any savvy warboss.

As for defenses, part of the ork mentality revolves around "Boss Poles" so I'd imagine they'd follow standard doctrine of setting up an orky camp the moment they cleared their landing zone.

There's still the issue of Looted siege tanks, valkyries, and battle cruisers that haven't been addressed. Valkyries were to the point in Brood War were even like, 7 of them gave you the air against squads of 20-30 mutalisks.

Ah ok, so this is starcraft 2 era zerg? Its still a viable tactic, and in a way, even more so, as those little creep tumors or whatever they are called, can be hidden and placed rapidly with the right setup. A creep colony from starcraft 1 is readily visible, these things are tiny little blisters, relativly speaking. It isnt a perfect unbeatable strategy, but then, very few things in a decent versus battle are. But it would make for a viable attempt at restricting ork resources while strengthening the zergs.

Even if it only works for a single attack or two, it would still put the zerg in an advantage, as the orks lose the remains of their boyz on the creep, while the swarm gains them. As an example, say the zerg setup a fast creep build then attack. They start out 50/50 evenly matched with the orks, but after the battle they manage to hit 60/40. They now have a numerical advantage that can be pressed. In fact, that could be a very smart tactic that can be reused in different ways. An ork attack is coming in? Drop a tumor behind the zerg lines and let the creep grow during the battle. If the zerg win, they absorb the remains. If they lose, they didnt really lose anything extra. By holding the battle outside of secure zerg turf, they dont risk their hive in the skirmish, as whatever gets through them still has to deal with the main hive defenses and will have been weakened in the first assault.

[Fan]

Any forces held back for base defense aren't engaging in the main skirmish though, and that's a significant disadvantage.

Whereas the Orks are very unlikely to care if their base gets smashed up, cause they'll just have the gretchins hammer it back together when they get back.

Though again, Looted Valkryies might just give the Orks the air advantage. Valkyries took down even waves of scourge due to their tendencies to bunch up, same with devourers and mutalisks.

They were the penultimate anti air unit, and looted ones always bring more fire power to the game.

[Traab]

Any forces held back for base defense aren't engaging in the main skirmish though, and that's a significant disadvantage.

Whereas the Orks are very unlikely to care if their base gets smashed up, cause they'll just have the gretchins hammer it back together when they get back.

Though again, Looted Valkryies might just give the Orks the air advantage. Valkyries took down even waves of scourge due to their tendencies to bunch up, same with devourers and mutalisks.

They were the penultimate anti air unit, and looted ones always bring more fire power to the game.

Where would they get valkeries from? I thought they would have moistly their own universes looted tech. As for rebuilding, if the orks base gets overrun with creep, they may not have alot left to rebuild with. And a zerg strategy of base defense isnt totally bonkers, as the zerg main hive area, when done right, can produce armies insanely fast. (4 hatchery/hive structures producing troops at once for example) A few units held back, the solid line of the zerg turrets, and the hatching eggs in the hives themselves means most of the zerg can leave, without leaving the hive even close to defenseless.

Someone mentioned once about the zerg not really having air superiority in the game, even when char is being invaded. The reason for that is simple, because the zerg forces had to be arranged in a beatable way. The maps were setup with solid anti air, OR anti ground defenses, meaning there was always a hole to exploit. Even when they were combined, it was always light enough to muscle through in the end. Watch the cinematic of the start to the invasion of char. The entire battlefleet was nearly wiped out by the zerg anti air. The ground troops were scattered and slaughtered. Only our resident hero raynor managed to keep the entire debacle from turning into a total loss. Without him, its likely every human on char would have been slaughtered.

[Fan]

Where would they get valkeries from? I thought they would have moistly their own universes looted tech. As for rebuilding, if the orks base gets overrun with creep, they may not have alot left to rebuild with. And a zerg strategy of base defense isnt totally bonkers, as the zerg main hive area, when done right, can produce armies insanely fast. (4 hatchery/hive structures producing troops at once for example) A few units held back, the solid line of the zerg turrets, and the hatching eggs in the hives themselves means most of the zerg can leave, without leaving the hive even close to defenseless.

Someone mentioned once about the zerg not really having air superiority in the game, even when char is being invaded. The reason for that is simple, because the zerg forces had to be arranged in a beatable way. The maps were setup with solid anti air, OR anti ground defenses, meaning there was always a hole to exploit. Even when they were combined, it was always light enough to muscle through in the end. Watch the cinematic of the start to the invasion of char. The entire battlefleet was nearly wiped out by the zerg anti air. The ground troops were scattered and slaughtered. Only our resident hero raynor managed to keep the entire debacle from turning into a total loss. Without him, its likely every human on char would have been slaughtered.

Again, game mechanics wise, units are produced insanely fast. It takes days to weeks for a new brood to hatch in fluff though, and I think we're digressing to fluff because otherwise Orks can produce entire squads of Boyz, Mega Armored Nobz, and vehicles from similar structures with a little bit of resources, and can literally produce infinite boys at no cost given time to build up.

[Acanous]

Depends on Zerg strat, too. I mean, if they 6 pool or go in for 7 roach rush, they got this before the Orks get a foothold. Trying FE or Fast Mutas, the Orks have pop-capped before you have an army.

[Fan]

Depends on Zerg strat, too. I mean, if they 6 pool or go in for 7 roach rush, they got this before the Orks get a foothold. Trying FE or Fast Mutas, the Orks have pop-capped before you have an army.

The difference being here, that Orks can produce their man of the line unit out of their first building.

I'd give sluggahs an easy chance against zerglings. Literally stomping on them.

[Kitten Champion]

Literally stomping on them.

Bad idea for banelings.

[Fan]

Bad idea for banelings.

The worst idea for banelings, but that requires transformation time, and resources, and a researched upgrade for them to be useful in any meaningful way.

[Kitten Champion]

The worst idea for banelings, but that requires transformation time, and resources, and a researched upgrade for them to be useful in any meaningful way.

The Orks are attacking a Zerg-held world, chances are they'd already have Zerg, Zerg buildings, and Zerg Upgades.

[shadow_archmagi]

I admit that the ork reproductive speed is being overestimated- the 40k Wiki uses the word "Decades."

I wonder how the Orky Fungus-Creep would interact with the Zergy Fungus-Creep?

I still feel like the Orks are the closest thing to a custom-designed anti-zerg race that you're going to get. Rokkits, stik-bombs, flamers, and lots of dakka are going to work to thin the horde pretty effectively, and they enjoy melee enough to balance out enemy melee and keep their AoE units safe.

I mean, Killa Kans are 12 foot tall humanoid robots that have circular saws for hands and can mount a rocket launcher/flamethrower/heavy shooter. It isn't going to get much more anti-zerg than that.


The orks would get ripped to bits by the Protoss though.

[The Glyphstone]

So since so many factors look to be depending on the leadership abilities of the general involved, I think we might have accidentally stumbled across a balanced Vs. match. I know, everyone take a minute to sit down while you recover from the shock.:smallcool:

I'm still a bit skeptical on the 'looted Terran units' thing, though...Tarsonis had been occupied by the Zerg for a long time, and they pretty much trashed everything capable of fighting back when they took it in the first place. I honestly can't see the Orks finding enough equipment in salvageable condition to actually field an appreciable number of Looted Valkyries or Looted Siege Tanks; they'd be much more likely to get field-stripped and rebuilt into Battlewagons or Fighta-Bommas.

[shadow_archmagi]

So since so many factors look to be depending on the leadership abilities of the general involved, I think we might have accidentally stumbled across a balanced Vs. match. I know, everyone take a minute to sit down while you recover from the shock.:smallcool:

I'm still a bit skeptical on the 'looted Terran units' thing, though...Tarsonis had been occupied by the Zerg for a long time, and they pretty much trashed everything capable of fighting back when they took it in the first place. I honestly can't see the Orks finding enough equipment in salvageable condition to actually field an appreciable number of Looted Valkyries or Looted Siege Tanks; they'd be much more likely to get field-stripped and rebuilt into Battlewagons or Fighta-Bommas.

It's a toss-up, really. Some Orks would repair and add spikes to the siege tank, others would take every siege tank gun they can find and strap it to a single chassis while converting any salvagable siege tank chassis into battlewagons.

Luckily, ammunition and resources aren't a problem because the surface of Tarsonis is covered in Spikey Blue Rocks that can be converted quickly and easily into any metal at all.

[Lord_Gareth]

Actually, that does bring up an interesting question - by the time Wings of Liberty occurs, Kerrigan has pulled out of Tarsonis entirely and it's become a Dominion world. Why did she leave? Was it a lack of resources, or was she just consolidating her forces?

[shadow_archmagi]

Actually, that does bring up an interesting question - by the time Wings of Liberty occurs, Kerrigan has pulled out of Tarsonis entirely and it's become a Dominion world. Why did she leave? Was it a lack of resources, or was she just consolidating her forces?

CLEARLY the battle with the Waaagh was proving to be an expensive stalemate, so she pulled out. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

Actually, that does bring up an interesting question - by the time Wings of Liberty occurs, Kerrigan has pulled out of Tarsonis entirely and it's become a Dominion world. Why did she leave? Was it a lack of resources, or was she just consolidating her forces?

At the end of brood wars, she had pulled back her forces to defend against the ued, protoss, and dominion forces attacking char. She won, but I dont think she was in a position to go retake all the worlds right away at that point. I may be misremembering it though. Also, wasnt tarsnois only hit in the first place because of mengsk using that psi emitter? The zerg may have just left after capturing kerrigan.

[Lord_Gareth]

Another interesting question - Ork commanders have a significant effect on their forces, but to what extent do Broods affect the Swarm's tactics? Like, would this scenario change significantly if we said that the Tiamat Brood held Tarsonis, or the Jormungandr?

[Traab]

Another interesting question - Ork commanders have a significant effect on their forces, but to what extent do Broods affect the Swarm's tactics? Like, would this scenario change significantly if we said that the Tiamat Brood held Tarsonis, or the Jormungandr?

It would effect it alot. Each brood is controlled pretty much completely by a different cerebrate. Or at least they were. Each has a different personality, each uses different strategies. Some would have a more defensive battle plan, letting the orks rush to their doom while he holds back and lets them shatter on his spike colonies and such where he holds the advantage, until they are weakened enough for a counter attack. Others would go for massive build up followed by unending swarm of attacks. Just keep marching over their own zerg carcasses slowly closing in until they can tear the orks apart. Others might show a more tactical mindset, and even try out that creep method I mentioned.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, so I think we've reached a stage where we need to start modifying this. Who wants to help create a list of broods and a list of Ork generals/Waaaagh!s so we can get into some meaty detail here?

[Kris Strife]

Again, game mechanics wise, units are produced insanely fast. It takes days to weeks for a new brood to hatch in fluff though, and I think we're digressing to fluff because otherwise Orks can produce entire squads of Boyz, Mega Armored Nobz, and vehicles from similar structures with a little bit of resources, and can literally produce infinite boys at no cost given time to build up.

In the story about how banelings were created, weren't the defenders facing new, slightly different zergling swarms on a daily basis?

[The Glyphstone]

It'd be easier to make a list of the various Klans and assume a Warboss from that Klan, since there aren't very many named Ork generals that we know things about - Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka starts and ends the list for the most part.

[Lord_Gareth]

It'd be easier to make a list of the various Klans and assume a Warboss from that Klan, since there aren't very many named Ork generals that we know things about - Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka starts and ends the list for the most part.

Then would you do the honors, Mr. Glyphstone?

[hamishspence]

Goffs: "'Hard gitz. Very melee-orientated."
Blood Axes: "Sneaky gitz. Make much use of camouflage."
Bad Moons: "Rich gitz. Make heavy use of gunz."
Death Skulls: "Thievin' gitz. Very good at looting."
Snakebites: "Primitive gitz. Make much use of boars & squigs."

[The Glyphstone]

Goffs: "'Hard gitz. Very melee-orientated."
Blood Axes: "Sneaky gitz. Make much use of camouflage."
Bad Moons: "Rich gitz. Make heavy use of gunz."
Death Skulls: "Thievin' gitz. Very good at looting."
Snakebites: "Primitive gitz. Make much use of boars & squigs."

You forgot Evil Sunz. "Speedy gitz. Love trukks and bikes and things what go fasta even before ya paintz 'em red."

[hamishspence]

Good point.

[Fan]

I'd give it to each on the following basis:

Goffs: Provided they bring mega armored nobz, storm boyz, and Biggah Nobz with Power Klawz you got a sweep in the melee department, I couldn't seen even an Ultralisk standing up to some Mega Armored Nobz. Those things rip apart tanks. That, and Ghazghkull. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ghazghkull_Thraka#.UGXU7E3A8eE)

Bad Moonz: Better vehicle equipment, lead by some of the most devious Warbosses available to Orks, they come with plenty of Flash Gitz, and Nobs in their usual WAAAAAGH! setup, and bring the second largest amount of vehicle to the field.

Blood Axes: Probably done for here, unless said infiltration would allow them to hit Kerrigan or some such directly with some Kroozer firepower.

Death Skullz: I say this is a win for them, because the amount of vehicles to loot on Tarsonis is simply ridiculous, three whole fleets one of which was protoss downed on this planet.

Snakebites: Not even a contest. Too stupid even by Ork standards.

Evil Sunz: Vehicles. Vehicles. Vehicles. They win for the same reason Death Skullz do.

[Brother Oni]

It'd be easier to make a list of the various Klans and assume a Warboss from that Klan, since there aren't very many named Ork generals that we know things about - Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka starts and ends the list for the most part.

Well there's Gorkutz 'Ead 'Unter from DoW, and Kaptin Bluddflagg from DoW2 (although he was a Freebooter rather than a Warboss).

We don't talk about Grimskull.

[Lord_Gareth]

Alright, flip side of this - what Broods does the Swarm have available at this time, and how do their tactics and strategies work? IIRC the Jormungund Brood was put down during the course of the Brood Wars, as were two others that had been suckered in by the new Overmind. So who's left, and who's new?

[The Glyphstone]

It's only the Death Skullz that frequently field large numbers of Looted vehicles, though - stealin' stuff is their shtick, so it's not entirely fair to pass that on to the others.

The Evil Sunz would loot like crazy, but it'd be in-character for them to ignore the Siege Tanks entirely because the Vultures are fasta - they're more like the Goffs in that they prefer melee, but use transports+bikes to close to fightin' range quickly rather than just be tuff enough to take the hits as they close.

Bad Moonz would do some lootin', but they're the classically 'rich' Ork Klan and would more likely to end up bringing looted Imperial vehicles with them rather than scavenging once they arrived. Note that this still means they win, it's just that the lootables on Tarsonis aren't relevant for such.


So, against a generic Zerg defensive force, without personalizing for Brood: Goffs, Death Skullz, and Bad Moonz = win.
Snakebites and Blood Axes = lose.
Evil Sunz = Iffy. They don't play the mechanized warfare game like BM or DS do, things with wheels are primarily valued as transports, so I'd put them as 'likely, but not guaranteed'.

[Fan]

It's only the Death Skullz that frequently field large numbers of Looted vehicles, though - stealin' stuff is their shtick, so it's not entirely fair to pass that on to the others.

The Evil Sunz would loot like crazy, but it'd be in-character for them to ignore the Siege Tanks entirely because the Vultures are fasta - they're more like the Goffs in that they prefer melee, but use transports+bikes to close to fightin' range quickly rather than just be tuff enough to take the hits as they close.

Bad Moonz would do some lootin', but they're the classically 'rich' Ork Klan and would more likely to end up bringing looted Imperial vehicles with them rather than scavenging once they arrived. Note that this still means they win, it's just that the lootables on Tarsonis aren't relevant for such.


So, against a generic Zerg defensive force, without personalizing for Brood: Goffs, Death Skullz, and Bad Moonz = win.
Snakebites and Blood Axes = lose.
Evil Sunz = Iffy. They don't play the mechanized warfare game like BM or DS do, things with wheels are primarily valued as transports, so I'd put them as 'likely, but not guaranteed'.

From what I remember, the Evil Sunz field the most air of any of the Orks.

So we could probably count on Wraiths, Dropships, and Valkryies being employed, along with Protoss Scouts and Corsairs.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe initially. But considering how well looted Imperial vehicles 'function', how long do you honestly expect the Orks to be keeping looted Protoss ships airborne at anything approaching their original level of functionality? Cause that's something else to consider...sure, the Orks can loot vehicles. They can loot lots of vehicles. But those vehicles are only available to be looted because the Zerg killed them once, and Lootin' makes the recovered salvage worse, not better - there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just killing them again.

Evil Sunz would love the heck out of Trukks What FlyDropships, though they'd be more likely to 'disembark' their passengers at ramming speed.

[Traab]

I wonder how they would react to dropships that heal you? I mean yeah they have no real sense of self preservation, but the fact that they can shoot off more dakka for longer periods of time with a dropship that heals them after dropping them in the middle of the fight, well, thats gotta be all sorts of awesome.

[shadow_archmagi]

I wonder how they would react to dropships that heal you? I mean yeah they have no real sense of self preservation, but the fact that they can shoot off more dakka for longer periods of time with a dropship that heals them after dropping them in the middle of the fight, well, thats gotta be all sorts of awesome.

Oh, yeah. The Orks already tolerate Ork Mad Doks, who practice medicine with a chainsaw. I'm sure they'd love a bits-replacer for when they get stuck in.

Plus the healing laser is green.

[boj0]

I need to pop into Media Discussions more often...I miss all the fun stuff :smalltongue:

The big thing about what Orks have for aerial support (yes, they do have their own fliers) is that they are obscenely fast, able to move over 36" on the tabletop no sweat. Also, they have some of the best anti-infantry weapons available to Orks.
A squadron of Burna Bombas would likely wipe out swaths of lesser Zerg during a run. While Dakkajets just are just that: jets with large amounts of dakka (also one of the more accurate shooty units); a Fighta Ace would also be able to hold their own against most Zerg air units.

For more on Ork air power, check out Deff Skawdron, hilariously brutal.

[The Glyphstone]

No, it's brutally hilarious.:smallcool:


The point made earlier is that while Ork air power is good, it'd range from unlikely to impossible that they could hold the air and use it. Zerg have a fantastic assortment of anti-air and air denial weapons, not the least of which are Scourges - I'd definitely wager the Zerg can grow new Scourges faster than the Orks can build new Fighta-Bommas, even at an unbalanced exchange rate. Between Scouges, Mutalisks, Devourers, Hydralisks, and Spore Crawlers/Colonies - Zerg are very likely to have air superiority, at best it'll be a consistent mutual stalemate locking air power out of the fight entirely.

[hamishspence]

Theres Fightas, Fighta-Bommers, Bommers (which come in three variants, one of which is the fighta-style Dakkajet) and there's super-heavy Bommers for the Apocalypse game, in one of the later splatbooks.

So quite a wide range.

There's also the Landa in the Epic game- like an oversized dropship with lots of guns.

Deff Skwadron is very cool- though the figure it gives for the weight of a fighta-bommer is much heavier than that the later books give. It's heavier than the super-heavies, in fact.

[BRC]

Well, the setting is very much playing into the Ork's favor. Tarsonis used to be the center of the Confederacy. IIRC, most of the planet is covered in a ruined city. Which means lots and lots of scrap for the Orks to use. On a planet like Tarsonis, the Mek Boyz should have no trouble building vehicles and weapons.
Let us look at the Terran SC1 Units, assuming there is plenty of scrap from those left around Tarsonis. an Orkish Mek can turn a pile of scrap and a few 2x4's into a tank. They would have no trouble with things like Siege Tanks and Goliaths.

And Gork help the Zerg if they find a supply of Firebat weapons.


And, if any of the old buildings still have their jump jets intact.

"eh, Lookatdis! Dis building can Fly!"
"But Boss, if dis buildin can fly, why didn't da 'umies put no gunz on it!"
"'Cause Deyz 'umies! Dey is Stupid! We is Orks! We know 'wat ta do with this!"


And the next thing you know, there is a fleet of flying buildings each stuffed full of Orks and weapons.
One especially clever Mek rigs them all up with loudspeakers, set to play "Ride of the Valkyrines"

[Traab]

Well, the setting is very much playing into the Ork's favor. Tarsonis used to be the center of the Confederacy. IIRC, most of the planet is covered in a ruined city. Which means lots and lots of scrap for the Orks to use. On a planet like Tarsonis, the Mek Boyz should have no trouble building vehicles and weapons.
Let us look at the Terran SC1 Units, assuming there is plenty of scrap from those left around Tarsonis. an Orkish Mek can turn a pile of scrap and a few 2x4's into a tank. They would have no trouble with things like Siege Tanks and Goliaths.

And Gork help the Zerg if they find a supply of Firebat weapons.


And, if any of the old buildings still have their jump jets intact.

"eh, Lookatdis! Dis building can Fly!"
"But Boss, if dis buildin can fly, why didn't da 'umies put no gunz on it!"
"'Cause Deyz 'umies! Dey is Stupid! We is Orks! We know 'wat ta do with this!"


And the next thing you know, there is a fleet of flying buildings each stuffed full of Orks and weapons.
One especially clever Mek rigs them all up with loudspeakers, set to play "Ride of the Valkyrines"

Something you should keep in mind is, if this is a tarsonis controlled by the zerg, they have had about 3-4 years, depending on how close it is to sons of liberty, to completely engulf the planet and all of its resources in creep. Those buildings and derelict mechs have all been blown up by the zerg, and the wreckage has been rusting and rotting for 3-4 years. Im not saying the orks cant do anything with it, im just saying that it wont be some orkish paradise since they arent really getting anything special. Just a lot of raw and crappy material. They wont be stumbling across a vast airfield of valkieries with flat tires and otherwise in pristine condition, or seige tanks that need new treads and a bit of chrome polish in other words.

[Fan]

To put it into perspective, the Imperial Guard has scorched the inner workings out of a Lemann Russ batallion that had fallen in combat to the Orks, removing the treads, taking out the engine, and setting the thing on fire after puncturing the fuel container.

The Orks looted them, and had them up in time for the next battle later in the day.

[The Glyphstone]

That could just mean they took the gutted shells and stuffed them full of Trukk bits while fixing up the turret, though - everything we're told about Looted vehicles is that they are crude, ramshackle, and occasionally as dangerous to their crew and surrounding infantry as they are to the enemy...exactly how the Orks like it. Even WAAAAUGH power can't create parts out of thin air, only make parts they have work better/longer than they should. And there's still what I mentioned before, that if the Zerg killed the vehicles once when they were in pristine condition, they can easily do it again when they're salvaged and crewed by Orks.

[Traab]

I agree with glyph on that. Clearly everything the orks could repair already lost to the zerg once. If the terrans couldnt win with those weapons, when they were at their peak condition and crewed by people who knew exactly how best to use them, what hope do orks with half assed copies have?

[Coidzor]

Without them having seen a working siege tank in action, there's some question as to what they'd produce from the burnt out shell and/or wreckage of a siege tank, isn't there?

[byaku rai]

>.>
<.<

... Zerg assimilate Orks.

We now have Zorks.

Whether or not this is likely, it is bloody awesome.

[Fan]

I agree with glyph on that. Clearly everything the orks could repair already lost to the zerg once. If the terrans couldnt win with those weapons, when they were at their peak condition and crewed by people who knew exactly how best to use them, what hope do orks with half assed copies have?

Because they're fielding all 3 armies that thought they could win at once's vehicle arsenal.

Also looted vehicles also have traditionally more fire power than their non looted equivalents, and ALSO work fine in most instances of fluff.

[Forum Explorer]

I agree with glyph on that. Clearly everything the orks could repair already lost to the zerg once. If the terrans couldnt win with those weapons, when they were at their peak condition and crewed by people who knew exactly how best to use them, what hope do orks with half assed copies have?

Because they weren't being piloted by Orks :smallbiggrin:

More seriously it's for replacement parts and ammo. It just means the Orks will expect vehicle replacements as the war continues. Similarly the Orks won't need to worry about running out of ammo.

Since the Ork infantry is already better then most of the zerg infantry and they can keep their vehicle section supplied I think they've got this.

[The Glyphstone]

Are they, though? Orks have the technology advantage, but Zerg aren't exactly pushovers, and like the Orks, they are also a purpose-designed genetically engineered species for warfare. Zerglings are the size of a large dog - Great Dane or St. Bernard-size, not Rottweiler, and they come in swarms...Ork Boys might be tough, but I'd expect one to lose against his equivalent mass in Zerglings. Hydralisks are 5.4 meters long - even giving half that to horizontal length, that still leaves 2.7 meters of height, only slightly shorter than the average 3-meter Warboss, and they can spit armor-piercing poisonous spines at hypersonic speeds. I can't get a definitive size quote for Roaches (they have the same collision radius in-game as a Hydralisk, so probably a few meters long and maybe a meter or two tall), but they're heavily armored and spew acidic saliva. Nothing Orks have short of a Squiggoth approaches the size of an Ultralisk - larger than tanks in most appearances, or its destructive ability - a group of nobs with power claws could beat one, but they'd take casualties.

Orks are individually tough, but as far as infantry go, they're all the same, varying only in degrees of individual height - boyz at seven-eight feet up to ten-twelve feet for the leaders. So I wouldn't go so far as to give them a clear infantry advantage at all.

[Kitten Champion]

The biggest problem with the Ork infantry would be the aforementioned banelings, if I can trust what's been said about the Ork psychology and technology thus far. They've got low-accuracy short-ranged guns/vehicles and a stronger melee that they enjoy far more. Which is fine, until you're facing a tide of swiftly rolling balls of volatile chemicals that explode with a shower of acid the moment it gets within melee range.

Effective against buildings, vehicles, and infantry of all stripes. Unless you're smart enough to target them at a decent range and are looking underground for potential threats.

[BRC]

The biggest problem with the Ork infantry would be the aforementioned banelings, if I can trust what's been said about the Ork psychology and technology thus far. They've got low-accuracy short-ranged guns/vehicles and a stronger melee that they enjoy far more. Which is fine, until you're facing a tide of swiftly rolling balls of volatile chemicals that explode with a shower of acid the moment it gets within melee range.

Effective against buildings, vehicles, and infantry of all stripes. Unless you're smart enough to target them at a decent range and are looking underground for potential threats.
I hadn't even thought about banelings. Your standard Ork mob tends to bunch together and rush straight at the enemy, shooting wildly until they get close enough to chop and slash slightly less wildly.

The Orks would catch on eventually, but a smart Cerebrate (Or whoever is running the zerg here) would analyze the Ork's tactics, then send in a wave of Banelings. The Orks will cheerfully rush in, and Kaboom, bye bye orks.

and when the Orks DO catch on, they'll be less equipped (Due to poor accuracy) than an equivalent group of marines to stop Banelings from getting close.

[GloatingSwine]

The biggest problem with the Ork infantry would be the aforementioned banelings, if I can trust what's been said about the Ork psychology and technology thus far. They've got low-accuracy short-ranged guns/vehicles and a stronger melee that they enjoy far more. Which is fine, until you're facing a tide of swiftly rolling balls of volatile chemicals that explode with a shower of acid the moment it gets within melee range.

Effective against buildings, vehicles, and infantry of all stripes. Unless you're smart enough to target them at a decent range and are looking underground for potential threats.

"Look out boyz, dey's got Bomb Squigs!"

Yeah, Orks have their own Banelings.

[Kitten Champion]

"Look out boyz, dey's got Bomb Squigs!"

Yeah, Orks have their own Banelings.

Not exactly helpful, considering the Zerg can aim.

[Traab]

"Look out boyz, dey's got Bomb Squigs!"

Yeah, Orks have their own Banelings.

In all seriousness, from what ive heard about them in not sure of the answer, would they even bother dodging if they knew? I mean, everything I have heard so far screams suicidally enjoying themselves in battle. So I could just see them running right for the baneling swarm. "Yo boyz! I bets I ken take four down wit me!"

[tyckspoon]

In all seriousness, from what ive heard about them in not sure of the answer, would they even bother dodging if they knew? I mean, everything I have heard so far screams suicidally enjoying themselves in battle. So I could just see them running right for the baneling swarm. "Yo boyz! I bets I ken take four down wit me!"

They'd at least make an effort to shoot them before they made contact, I think.. after all, it's fun to make a Baneling blow when you shoot it. It's not so fun to put your choppa in it and have it melt off half your body (well, for that individual ork/anybody who was too close to him. It's probably hilarious to everybody else.)

[Traab]

They'd at least make an effort to shoot them before they made contact, I think.. after all, it's fun to make a Baneling blow when you shoot it. It's not so fun to put your choppa in it and have it melt off half your body (well, for that individual ork/anybody who was too close to him. It's probably hilarious to everybody else.)

True, but their accuracy apparently sucks, and even terran marines cant stop a full swarm of banelings coming at them full tilt. They might get a few, but I bet there would be a nice path of melted ork goo right through the middle of the pack.

[Forrestfire]

True, but their accuracy apparently sucks, and even terran marines cant stop a full swarm of banelings coming at them full tilt. They might get a few, but I bet there would be a nice path of melted ork goo right through the middle of the pack.

I think it depends on how many guns of what type the orks have. And if they have burnas with them, since they have a fairly long range and are pretty hard to miss with.

[Traab]

Damn, this IS an evenly matched fight. No matter what idea we come up with for either side, there is always a clear and commonly used counter. Its not like say, darth vader versus voldemort, where we bring in all sorts of obscure stuff that exists in canon of all levels of accuracy and MIGHT be known and used by either side, even though we never see them doing so, its actual stuff that isnt a long shot, and is in fact likely how things will shape up.

But even with the burnas things arent definite that banelings wont work. I mean, its a part of how the zerg operate, you may kill one, 10, or even 50 of the approaching enemy, it doesnt matter because the other 150 units are marching right over the top of their preceding fellows burnt corpses inching closer and closer with every moment, until they get you. It can be stopped, but it aint easy.

[Tavar]

Note that if you're fighting such a horde, accuracy matters quite a bit less: sure, you miss your exact target, but you hit his buddy who's a bit to the left.

[Forrestfire]

One question, though. If a baneling explodes, does it hurt the other banelings? Because then the orks' sheer volume of firepower might just do the trick.

[Traab]

One question, though. If a baneling explodes, does it hurt the other banelings? Because then the orks' sheer volume of firepower might just do the trick.

It doesnt in game, because that would make banelings so far beyond worthless as to be a joke. They HAVE to come up in a swarm, and if popping one or two set off all the rest in an orgy of exploding acid, what would be the point? Also, being vulnerable to the juice that fills them would strike me as a design flaw. It would be as if blood touching us caused us to catch fire.

[Forrestfire]

Ah ok. I was too lazy to research them more than a cursory readthrough on the wiki, so I wasn't sure if the acid was dangerous to them. I mean, we have strong HCL in our stomaches, but HCL still hurts us.

[Traab]

Ah ok. I was too lazy to research them more than a cursory readthrough on the wiki, so I wasn't sure if the acid was dangerous to them. I mean, we have strong HCL in our stomaches, but HCL still hurts us.

Yeah, im not certain, but I think banelings are like giant balls of acid with a large enough brain to target something and roll towards it. You have a good point about the hcl in our bodies, but keep in mind that one of our main biological functions is NOT to explode alongside a dozen of our fellows and spray that hcl on everything in sight. :smallbiggrin: It has been a long time since I saw banelings but im fairly sure they dont hurt each other by bursting. Like I said, that would just be extremely silly.

[GolemsVoice]

Banelings can also be burried and quickly unburried, essentially creating a living minefield. How good would you think everyday Ork detection equipment is?

[Forrestfire]

Banelings can also be burried and quickly unburried, essentially creating a living minefield. How good would you think everyday Ork detection equipment is?

It depends on who the warboss is. Ghazghkull would probably have had his mechs loot auspex, (auspexes?), which would easily detect them.

[MLai]

1. Banelings:
Orkz, depending on the klan, have Area Of Effect weaponz. Actually, LOTZ of AoE weaponz. A carpet of little firecrackers rolling across the field towards them will get popped via carpet-bombing style.
Orkz have their own version of Banelings (Bomb Squigs). Orkz fight other orkz all the time. This means, Orkz know how to quickly recognize and then fight against this strat.

2. Zerg human wave tactic looking to swarm the enemy line in melee:
And this is a problem for the boyz, how?
"Ey stop yer shootin! Dem bugz are comin to us!"
Each Choppa Boy is the equivalent of a Space Marine in melee, except unarmoured but tuffer. And there's more of them.

[Kitten Champion]

But even with the burnas things arent definite that banelings wont work. I mean, its a part of how the zerg operate, you may kill one, 10, or even 50 of the approaching enemy, it doesnt matter because the other 150 units are marching right over the top of their preceding fellows burnt corpses inching closer and closer with every moment, until they get you. It can be stopped, but it aint easy.

Flamethrowers? You'd use Roaches, they're essentially fire-proof given that upgraded Hellions can do next to no damage to them. Even after being partly broiled they can burrow and recover in seconds. That or simply swarm them with Mutalisks.


1. Banelings:
Orkz, depending on the klan, have Area Of Effect weaponz. Actually, LOTZ of AoE weaponz. A carpet of little firecrackers rolling across the field towards them will get popped via carpet-bombing style.
Orkz have their own version of Banelings (Bomb Squigs). Orkz fight other orkz all the time. This means, Orkz know how to quickly recognize and then fight against this strat.


This would work, if Banshees are any indication. Although if they can't be used quickly and accurately you'll be bombing where the Zerg were. Where the Zerg will be is far closer than you'd want them to. Then there are more of 'em behind the bodies of the ones you've actually managed to kill, who are merely another wave in an endless stream of homocidal biomass rushing towards you. That's the Zerg's charm point. Banelings won't be kind enough to attack just from one angle or alone, they'd simply be the surprising end to an eventful day.



2. Zerg human wave tactic looking to swarm the enemy line in melee:
And this is a problem for the boyz, how?
"Ey stop yer shootin! Dem bugz are comin to us!"
Each Choppa Boy is the equivalent of a Space Marine in melee, except unarmoured but tuffer. And there's more of them.

Which is why it would be mind grinder all around.

[Traab]

1. Banelings:
Orkz, depending on the klan, have Area Of Effect weaponz. Actually, LOTZ of AoE weaponz. A carpet of little firecrackers rolling across the field towards them will get popped via carpet-bombing style.
Orkz have their own version of Banelings (Bomb Squigs). Orkz fight other orkz all the time. This means, Orkz know how to quickly recognize and then fight against this strat.

2. Zerg human wave tactic looking to swarm the enemy line in melee:
And this is a problem for the boyz, how?
"Ey stop yer shootin! Dem bugz are comin to us!"
Each Choppa Boy is the equivalent of a Space Marine in melee, except unarmoured but tuffer. And there's more of them.

Yeah... and zerglings are quite capable of tearing apart armored marines. Thats after taking a lot of bullets to the face as they swarm in to bury them under a wave of zerg. You seem to think that the zerg arent good at close combat or something. They are. They will tear you apart. If the orks were stupid enough to stop shooting because "da boogz are cumin ta us!" then they just gave up any hope of victory. Holding them back at a distance is the only thing that keeps the terrans from being slaughtered, and I dont think the orks would do much better.

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah... and zerglings are quite capable of tearing apart armored marines.

He wasn't talking about Terran Marines, puny oomans in tin can armour.

He was talking about Space Marines, eight foot tall supersoldiers in armour that can stand up to antitank weapons.

Orks fight those Marines in close combat and have a reasonable chance of winning.

[Fan]

Yeah... and zerglings are quite capable of tearing apart armored marines. Thats after taking a lot of bullets to the face as they swarm in to bury them under a wave of zerg. You seem to think that the zerg arent good at close combat or something. They are. They will tear you apart. If the orks were stupid enough to stop shooting because "da boogz are cumin ta us!" then they just gave up any hope of victory. Holding them back at a distance is the only thing that keeps the terrans from being slaughtered, and I dont think the orks would do much better.

Ork Melee units are capable of beating the Tyranid equivalent Hormagaunts in melee combat.


Pts WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv
6 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 4 6+

Whereas an ork boy is the following.


http://htmlimg1.scribdassets.com/zxjku5ayob4bva/images/34-a8853fc619.jpg



I don't see why they wouldn't be able to stand against the weaker zerg infantry.

[shadow_archmagi]

Are zerglings weaker than their tyranid cousin? As I recall, they're both essentially rip-and-tear dog-sized things. I was under the impression that the zerg v tyranid thing was mostly that tyranids operated on a bigger scale- There's more of them, and there's more big ones. But little guys vs little guys I can't see a difference just have having played both RTSes.

Wartraks (http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/index.php?title=Wartrak) are the kind of thing I'm thinking of when I saw the Orks have this. Bombs (With knockdown!) for the swarm, missiles for the things that stand out from the swarm.

[Fan]

Are zerglings weaker than their tyranid cousin? As I recall, they're both essentially rip-and-tear dog-sized things. I was under the impression that the zerg v tyranid thing was mostly that tyranids operated on a bigger scale- There's more of them, and there's more big ones. But little guys vs little guys I can't see a difference just have having played both RTSes.

Wartraks (http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/index.php?title=Wartrak) are the kind of thing I'm thinking of when I saw the Orks have this. Bombs (With knockdown!) for the swarm, missiles for the things that stand out from the swarm.

The Tyranids cut through higher density material going by what Adamantium has been stated to resist as opposed to what Neosteel has been shown to resist.

With Adamantium resisting things like Melta Guns, which present higher fire power than anything hand held in Starcraft.

Also, I'd give it to a Carnifex over an Ultralisk any day. Given the things have actual intelligence.

[hamishspence]

Genestealers, while roughly the same size as hormagaunts, are a lot better at penetrating armour (they have the Rending rule).

Carnifexes are also a bit smaller than Ultralisks- one, Old One-Eye, is intelligent- but normal carnifexes aren't nearly as smart.

[deuterio12]

He wasn't talking about Terran Marines, puny oomans in tin can armour.

He was talking about Space Marines, eight foot tall supersoldiers in armour that can stand up to antitank weapons.


Actually regular 40k power armor has been known to be breached by medieval arrows, and anything resembling an actual antitank weapon (rocket launchers, melta guns, etc) will easily pulverize power armor and its wearer.

Even in that 40k 3rd person shooter game ork rokkits will make short work of your plot-armored character if you stand in the open for more than a second.

[Fan]

Actually regular 40k power armor has been known to be breached by medieval arrows, and anything resembling an actual antitank weapon (rocket launchers, melta guns, etc) will easily pulverize power armor and its wearer.

Even in that 40k 3rd person shooter game ork rokkits will make short work of your plot-armored character if you stand in the open for more than a second.

Yeah..

Allow me to correct you.



Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flash. The men who had been awaiting rescue in the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart in seconds by the heavy calibre, armour piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in midthigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.
The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolter rounds were ineffective against the armoured undersides of the gunships.
Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter's shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt the powerful impacts hammer into his backplate. He offered a small prayer of thanks to his armour for standing firm against the traitorous fire.



Giant forks of lightning, savage and yellow-white phosphorescent, were searing down into the open space, explosively scorching the earth. Though each fork only existed for a nanosecond, they seemed solid and real, like fundamental, physical structures, like upturned, thorny trees. Three Astartes, including Lucius, were struck. Secure in their Mark IV plate, they shrugged off the massive, detonating impacts and laughed as aftershock electrical blooms crackled like garlands of blue wire around their armour for a few seconds.
[...]
The storm above grew still more ferocious. Five more men were struck. One of them, Ulzoras, was actually knocked off his feet. They saw fused, glassy craters in the ground where lighting had earthed with the force of penetrator missiles.

[Tiki Snakes]

Actually regular 40k power armor has been known to be breached by medieval arrows, and anything resembling an actual antitank weapon (rocket launchers, melta guns, etc) will easily pulverize power armor and its wearer.

Even in that 40k 3rd person shooter game ork rokkits will make short work of your plot-armored character if you stand in the open for more than a second.


Medieval Arrows? Well, I've no idea where and when such a thing happened, but far as I see it would be basically impossible in the Deathwatch RP system (short of extra-ordinary levels of luck and the direct blessing of the emperor or an equivalent open-ended-damage thingy) because they are primitive and that means armour counts double. They literally are incapable of beating the armour value.

And the 3rd person shooter was pretty terrible in general, I'd say it's a poor source of anything resembling canon. (Though yes, far as I know anti-armour weaponry will, funnily enough, do bad things even to armoured troups.)

[deuterio12]

Medieval Arrows? Well, I've no idea where and when such a thing happened, but far as I see it would be basically impossible in the Deathwatch RP system (short of extra-ordinary levels of luck and the direct blessing of the emperor or an equivalent open-ended-damage thingy) because they are primitive and that means armour counts double. They literally are incapable of beating the armour value.

The Deatwatch RP is extremely biased towards the SM (aka the players). By those standards iconic 40K character like Ciaphas Cain never existed, because the moment Cain meets a chaos marine he's pulverized into pulp whitout any real chance going by said DW RP rules.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Deatwatch RP is extremely biased towards the SM (aka the players). By those standards iconic 40K character like Ciaphas Cain never existed, because the moment Cain meets a chaos marine he's pulverized into pulp whitout any real chance going by said DW RP rules.

Unless you're arguing that he would be portrayed as a Dark Heresy Guardsman, pretty much no. He's going to be an inquisitor-levelish character, surely, and that would put him at a comparable points value to a marine, chaos or otherwise. With help and a bit of luck, he should be able to take on a chaos marine (just as he apparently did). I also doubt he was armed with primitive weapons when he did so.

[hamishspence]

The Deatwatch RP is extremely biased towards the SM (aka the players). By those standards iconic 40K character like Ciaphas Cain never existed, because the moment Cain meets a chaos marine he's pulverized into pulp whitout any real chance going by said DW RP rules.

The Black Crusade game allows you to play both Chaos marines and human heretics- it tones down Marine wargear a little compared to Deathwatch- but it's still better than human wargear. A "Legion bolter" will pack a little more punch than a human bolter, and so forth.

And the armour is still comparable.

The Inquisitor game also has stats for both marines and humans- and Marines are even more durable than in Deathwatch.

The Cain book The Traitor's Hand has the Chaos marines wading through hundreds of humans with minimal damage- and it's just Cain is that good a swordsman (according to Amberley, he's one of the top swordsmen in the whole sector) that he is able to not get killed. Even then, he's either holding it off till Jurgen can shoot it, or stabbing a badly weakened Marine through an existing hole in the armour.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Black Crusade game allows you to play both Chaos marines and human heretics- it tones down Marine wargear a little compared to Deathwatch- but it's still better than human wargear. A "Legion bolter" will pack a little more punch than a human bolter, and so forth.

And the armour is still comparable.

The Inquisitor game also has stats for both marines and humans- and Marines are even more durable than in Deathwatch.

The Cain book The Traitor's Hand has the Chaos marines wading through hundreds of humans with minimal damage- and it's just Cain is that good a swordsman (according to Amberley, he's one of the top swordsmen in the whole sector) that he is able to not get killed. Even then, he's either holding it off till Jurgen can shoot it, or stabbing a badly weakened Marine through an existing hole in the armour.

Both of which scenarios are quite believable and even likely in the various systems. (Damaged armour does get reduced armour value, anything other than medieval weaponry has a reasonable chance of getting through anyway, and certain weapons do penetrate a lot better.)
The Black Crusade does have some small mechanical differences/updates, but the armour and probably weapon differences are actually more intended to be because of the state of the armour used, with few of the systems still working and so on.

[deuterio12]

Something more iconic then.

First war for armaggedon, hundreds of thousands of chaos marines, backed up by countless daemons and a daemon primarch.

And they get stalled in a planet by simple guardsmen-equivalent for months before reinforcments arrive.

Never happened by DW/BC rules. The hundreds of thousands of chaos marines and their daemons would've just steamrolled over the planet.

[Tiki Snakes]

Something more iconic then.

First war for armaggedon, hundreds of thousands of chaos marines, backed up by countless daemons and a daemon primarch.

And they get stalled in a planet by simple guardsmen-equivalent for months before reinforcments arrive.

Never happened by DW/BC rules. The hundreds of thousands of chaos marines and their daemons would've just steamrolled over the planet.

Why would that not have happened by DW/BC rules? You'll have to go into more detail there.

[Tvtyrant]

One thing that we haven't brought up is the Gargants, Stompas and assorted other super-mechs. They easily top Ultralisks in size and power, and usually at least one Gargant comes along with a Waaagh! along with lots of Stompas.

[The Glyphstone]

One thing that we haven't brought up is the Gargants, Stompas and assorted other super-mechs. They easily top Ultralisks in size and power, and usually at least one Gargant comes along with a Waaagh! along with lots of Stompas.

They don't usually come with the Rok-landing type of WAAAUGH though, because they can't make it to the surface intact. It was more-or-less universally agreed, even if by omission, that bringing along a Gargant/Titan-sized unit would wreak unimaginable havoc and likely singlehandedly win the war, because nothing in the Starcraft universe even approaches that scale of land unit. An Omegalisk miiiiight go head-to-head with a Gargant, but that's pretty much it, and they're so rare as to be practically nonexistent.

[Brother Oni]

One thing that we haven't brought up is the Gargants, Stompas and assorted other super-mechs. They easily top Ultralisks in size and power, and usually at least one Gargant comes along with a Waaagh! along with lots of Stompas.

They probably would, except by the terms of the OP all we mainly have is lots of Roks with lots of boyz and whatever they can squeeze into aforementioned Roks.

I'm doubtful they could squeeze anything the size of gargants into a Rok, maybe a couple of light and medium class vehicles, but nothing on the heavy or super heavy scale.

Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?

Another thing that I've discovered - Roks can't travel through the Warp, so somewhere not too far away in-system, is the Orks' main base of operations.

[hamishspence]

An Omegalisk miiiiight go head-to-head with a Gargant, but that's pretty much it, and they're so rare as to be practically nonexistent.
That said, if you can crack your way through the armour, even if the Titan itself is mostly intact, you can swarm your way up inside it and make life very very difficult for the crew.

Which is seen in the Titan: Viviparous comic. Though they do end up repelling the attack.



Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?

There's Landas- but they're not really Titan carriers. Might be able to manage a Stompa though.

[The Glyphstone]

They probably would, except by the terms of the OP all we mainly have is lots of Roks with lots of boyz and whatever they can squeeze into aforementioned Roks.

I'm doubtful they could squeeze anything the size of gargants into a Rok, maybe a couple of light and medium class vehicles, but nothing on the heavy or super heavy scale.

Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?

Another thing that I've discovered - Roks can't travel through the Warp, so somewhere not too far away in-system, is the Orks' main base of operations.

That, or sometimes they have big enough Tellyportas to get the super-heavies to the surface intact.

As for the Rok's lack of warp capability, I don't think that was intended as part of the fight, that's just a general idea of the scale of force the Orks can bring to bear.

[Fan]

Something more iconic then.

First war for armaggedon, hundreds of thousands of chaos marines, backed up by countless daemons and a daemon primarch.

And they get stalled in a planet by simple guardsmen-equivalent for months before reinforcments arrive.

Never happened by DW/BC rules. The hundreds of thousands of chaos marines and their daemons would've just steamrolled over the planet.

There aren't hundreds of thousands of Chaos Marines.

What you are saying is a literal impossibility.

[hamishspence]

As for the Rok's lack of warp capability, I don't think that was intended as part of the fight, that's just a general idea of the scale of force the Orks can bring to bear.

Would probably be a case of:

Space Hulk drops in, Orks leave the hulk, arrive in the Belt, build engines on asteroids- mine asteroids for metal to build tanks and whatnot- start moving inward- and Space Hulk drops back into the warp.

Alternatively they just break bits off their Hulk and head inward on those.

[GolemsVoice]

There aren't hundreds of thousands of Chaos Marines.

What you are saying is a literal impossibility

That's just deuterio. He seems to hate W40k with a burning passion and injects himself in every debate involving 40k. It's not the first time it has happened :smallsmile:

[boj0]

Speaking of which, how do Orks get their heavy and super heavy gear from orbit onto the planet? Do they ship it down it bits and re-assemble on site or do they have massive transport ships that can drop the things intact?

Larger WAAAGH!s that have Kroozers can easily carry a dozen Stompas or smaller Gargants, to say nothing of Deff Dreads, Killa Kans, Battlewagons, etc. Considering Roks are just hollowed out asteroids, the limit on what it can carry would just be limited by it's size.

Hmmm how would Zerg fare against Ork Artillery? You could probably fit plenty of those on a Rok.

Another suggestion: Kill Team on XBLA and PSN; Space Marines fight through a Kroozer, hilarity ensues.

[shadow_archmagi]

Larger WAAAGH!s that have Kroozers can easily carry a dozen Stompas or smaller Gargants, to say nothing of Deff Dreads, Killa Kans, Battlewagons, etc. Considering Roks are just hollowed out asteroids, the limit on what it can carry would just be limited by it's size.

Hmmm how would Zerg fare against Ork Artillery? You could probably fit plenty of those on a Rok.


Given how well the Zerg fare against Siege Tanks, I'd say artillery is a problem for them.

[deuterio12]

However Orks are renowed for loving to get close and personal, and more important, they need strong leaders to keep them going togheter, even in the face of a clear common enemy.

There was actually a war where tyranids droped in an ork planet and were repeatedly crushed and forced into guerilla warfare, and even then things looked grim for the nids.

Until the tyranids realized the ork large numbers were just kept in check by a specific warboss. Using taunting hit-and-run tactics they lured said warboss in the open and killed him. The orks hordes proceeded to break in in-fighting and the nids picked them off one by one.

No special reason why the zergs couldn't do it, in particular because they're infamous for infiltration and dirty tricks.



That's just deuterio. He seems to hate W40k with a burning passion and injects himself in every debate involving 40k. It's not the first time it has happened :smallsmile:

No, I just happen to actually read the sources.

There's at least hundreds of chaos warbands (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Traitor_Legion) out there, and each chaos warband is roughly the equal of a loyalist chapter (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Renegade_Space_Marines). Since each chapter is around 1000 strong, then simple math confirms that yes, there's hundreds of thousands of chaos marines out there.

[The Glyphstone]

...wut.

A Warband is not the size of a Loyalist chapter. Read the page you actually linked to...



Some are not whole Chapters but simply warbands composed of a few tens or hundreds of Astartes drawn from the same original source and led by a charismatic commander or Chaos Lord.

tens or hundreds = 1,000 members of a Chapter-size unit


According to the current records of the Inquisition's Ordo Malleus, approximately 50 Loyalist Chapters or elements of Loyalist Chapters have turned Renegade in the ten millennia since the Horus Heresy.
50 * 1000 = 50,000 maximum, if 50 whole chapters went rogue.

When you link to sources,make sure those sources don't actually contradict your claims next time.

[Renegade Paladin]

No, I just happen to actually read the sources.

There's at least hundreds of chaos warbands (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Traitor_Legion) out there, and each chaos warband is roughly the equal of a loyalist chapter (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Renegade_Space_Marines). Since each chapter is around 1000 strong, then simple math confirms that yes, there's hundreds of thousands of chaos marines out there.
Where do you get the idea that every single warband is the equal of an entire loyalist chapter? This is patently not the case; among the World Eaters especially individual warbands are often no more than a dozen strong.

[GolemsVoice]

They also weren't all at the same time at Armageddon, as was initially claimed. The Lexicanum article speaks of "huge numbers" but that includes every type of chaos worshiper, not only Marines.

[MLai]

If there were actually "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, there would not have been a defeat/stalemate for Chaos.
Scratch that, there would not have been a war.

[Starbuck_II]

Given how well the Zerg fare against Siege Tanks, I'd say artillery is a problem for them.

What? Zerglings crush Siege Tanks. Siege Mode is a issue though, but not seige tanks.

[Coidzor]

What? Zerglings crush Siege Tanks. Siege Mode is a issue though, but not seige tanks.

Siege tanks aren't artillery except in siege mode though, and it's the effects of the artillery that matter, since if you're getting close to the artillery then the artillery is hosed anyway, generally speaking.

[Traab]

Siege tanks aren't artillery except in siege mode though, and it's the effects of the artillery that matter, since if you're getting close to the artillery then the artillery is hosed anyway, generally speaking.

Exactly. A line of siege tanks in siege mode hiding behind bunkers will obliterate entire swarms of zerg so fast its sickening. I cant even remember how many times I have seen a full zerg swarm attack an entrenched terran opponent only to be utterly wiped out at range without them ever coming close. Its pretty much the only time the zerg tactic of, "Keep marching forward till you eat them" fails utterly. There was a mission in the first starcraft, I think early on in the zerg campaign, where you play the zerg trying to attack the terran outpost. They have the high ground and bottleneck, with the cliff face covered by a solid amount of siege tanks and bunkers along the edges. For fun I built the maximum size swarm possible of ground troops, zergling and hydralisks, and sent them all up at once. 200 pop army. They didnt even make it to the base. Of course, I couldnt let that stand, so I then built about 7, 12 man squads of mutalisks and blotted out the sun. Think I lost two mutas before the entire base was leveled. :p

[Rejakor]

...wut.

A Warband is not the size of a Loyalist chapter. Read the page you actually linked to...


tens or hundreds = 1,000 members of a Chapter-size unit


50 * 1000 = 50,000 maximum, if 50 whole chapters went rogue.

When you link to sources,make sure those sources don't actually contradict your claims next time.


The Legions were massive armies, and the size of each could vary tremendously. A precise number was never truly achieved and maintained. Even during the Great Crusade, some Legions were very numerous, while others were not. The numbers would always vary with new recruits and inevitable battle-losses, and also important was the availability of potential recruits and the administrative skills of the Primarch and his officers.

You appear to be referring to Chapters of space marines, i.e. post-heresy legions broken apart by the changes made by rowboat girlyman (roboute guilliman) in the Codex Astartes.

Pre-Heresy Legions varied wildly in size but the average was 'about 10,000'. So depending on the specific size of the 20 Chaos Legions, it could have definitely involved hundreds of thousands of space marines AND daemons.


And yes. People fapping about space marines have spouted wild, wild numbers and fantasy scenarios and everything else that doesn't really jive with the technology level or the perceived results of the space marines. Portraying guardsmen as weak and inferior and useless and 5-10 space marines being able to single-handedly wipe out xenos fleets and the whole imperium being held together by tiny numbers of space marines is a common 'view' of the setting.

That said, it makes much less sense and is less of a working setting and more of a weird power fantasy about big armoured men who are soooo cool and strong than anything else.

[MLai]

You can have whatever opinion you want about the Marine Equivalents in the W40K setting. Realistically, I agree superheavy infantry is not a realistic option in future-warfare.

But the fact remains that if you have "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, plus their lesser/daemonic cohorts that round out their army, there is no Imperial Guard force in the galaxy that would stand a chance.

[Tvtyrant]

You can have whatever opinion you want about the Marine Equivalents in the W40K setting. Realistically, I agree superheavy infantry is not a realistic option in future-warfare.

But the fact remains that if you have "hundreds of thousands" of Marine Equivalents on a single planet, plus their lesser/daemonic cohorts that round out their army, there is no Imperial Guard force in the galaxy that would stand a chance.

...And a single Exterminatus would eliminate every chaos space marine in existence. The Imperium could lose almost any world (excluding maybe Earth and Mars) and still make a net profit if it meant the elimination of an entire enemy faction. Cadia could send most of its forces elsewhere as there wouldn't be any more Black Crusades. Entire chapters could be redevoted to the rising Necron and Tyranid threats.

[The Glyphstone]

You appear to be referring to Chapters of space marines, i.e. post-heresy legions broken apart by the changes made by rowboat girlyman (roboute guilliman) in the Codex Astartes.

Pre-Heresy Legions varied wildly in size but the average was 'about 10,000'. So depending on the specific size of the 20 Chaos Legions, it could have definitely involved hundreds of thousands of space marines AND daemons.



There were 9 Chaos Legions, not 20...I have no idea where you got that number.

And yes, I was referring to Chapters, because the Lexicanum says that 50 Chapters or contingents of Chapters have gone rogue since the Heresy...so the forces of Chaos have had an absolute maximum of 50,000 reinforcements, and it's doubtful all of them survived up to the current day. Only one of the original Traitor Legions - the World Eaters - were present on Armageddon in force, led by Angron the Demon Primarch.

[hamishspence]

Strictly, they aren't limited to Chapters- small groups of Marines (companies etc) have gone renegade as well.

Some Legions have demonstrated the ability to implant new recruits (Iron warriors for example)- but I'm not sure if this applies to the World Eaters.

After Istvann III there were on the order of 80,000 World Eaters according to the Forgeworld book "Horus Heresy: Betrayal" (legions averaged 100,000, not 10,000)

By the 41st Millennium there's probably somewhat less- even with them recruiting renegades.

Kharn shattered the World Eaters Legion into warbands at some point not too long after the Heresy- so it's possible Angron didn't have access to the whole Legion- just many of its warbands.

All in all I'd say you're probably looking at a few thousand World Eaters- but a lot less than 100,000, on Armageddon.

[DeltaEmil]

If the orks were to fight against Zerg, it would depend on if it were Zerg lead by cerebrates and also if the overmind was still alive, or Zerg lead by brood mothers, who were created by the Queen of Blades.

The cerebrates have shown to be very good generals (they're giant brains, after all). They intercept enemy radio transmissions, devise new strategies, can communicate with each another, and are all psionically connected to the overmind, who will ensure that the cerebrates will be reformed if slain, so that their valuable knowledge will not be lost.

Under their command, the zerg could easily win against the ork hordes, unless they were lead by some extremely sneaky and experienced blood axe-warboss, who already knows how Zerg fight.

The starcraft 2-brood mothers on the other hand are too inexperienced and don't have really that much combat experience, being more focused on breeding new zerg-strains. Sure, new deadly zerg-thingies can also win the day, but without the knowledge to use them effectively, the queens and brood mothers just aren't that dangerous overall.

[Forum Explorer]

If it's a decent sized WAAAGH then we can assume that the Warboss is also of decent skill.

I mean the size of the WAAAGH is basically determined by how strong or skilled the Warboss is.

As per the OP the Zerg do not have any Cerebrates or the Overmind. So it'd likely be a Broodmother since giving the Zerg Kerrigan is like giving the Orks one of their special characters.

[Rejakor]

There were 9 Chaos Legions, not 20...I have no idea where you got that number.

And yes, I was referring to Chapters, because the Lexicanum says that 50 Chapters or contingents of Chapters have gone rogue since the Heresy...so the forces of Chaos have had an absolute maximum of 50,000 reinforcements, and it's doubtful all of them survived up to the current day. Only one of the original Traitor Legions - the World Eaters - were present on Armageddon in force, led by Angron the Demon Primarch.

Chaos controls various areas and the chaos space marine legions recruit from worlds in those areas, much as space marines recruit from worlds in imperium controlled space.

The imperium has more space that it controls, but it doesn't have access to daemonic resources and so has to spend more time and energy fighting off things like necrons and orks.

But chaos fights itself more than the imperium, so it's a bit of a wash.

That said apparently the Eye of Terror is a very large region of folded space and daemon-worlds, so the actual amount of chaos space marines appears to be 'any'.

[deuterio12]

Chaos controls various areas and the chaos space marine legions recruit from worlds in those areas, much as space marines recruit from worlds in imperium controlled space.


Indeed, chaos marines count reinforcments not only from renegades but also from regular humans that happen to worship chaos, prove their worth and are lucky enough. Fabius Bile has something to say about this:

Each of the Legions has now nominated aspirants seeking to throw themselves upon our mercy in the vain hope that we may deem them worthy to join our ranks. Those loyal to the shrunken corpse on Terra still cling to their own processes by which perhaps one in a hundred neophytes may survive to become a battle brother. The methods I have developed over the last millennia are more stringent, for we must be pure in our hatred and hard of heart, body and soul. Fewer than one in every thousand survive, and I strive each day to lengthen these odds still further.

So that's 1 in each 1000-10 000 chaos cultists steping forward that rise as a new chaos marine. Considering how cultists usually rival IG in sheer numbers as whole populations revolt against the hated IoM, that's not shabby at all!

In one of the Iron Warrior novels they go raid a secret deposit of loyalist gene-seed to greatly swell their own numbers.

Plus in the latest chaos codex, the World Eater warbands are described as having chirurgeons specialized in turning new recruits in axe-crazy berzekers, so they've also been keeping up their own numbers.

[hamishspence]

"Berserker-Surgeons" were mentioned in the 4E codex as well.

However the 4E one called the Black Legion's surgeons the equals of the World Eaters'- and the 6E one says they're only "close" to equalling those of the World Eaters.

[Tvtyrant]

I think we have moved a little off from the original topic :smallyuk:

[deuterio12]

"Berserker-Surgeons" were mentioned in the 4E codex as well.

However the 4E one called the Black Legion's surgeons the equals of the World Eaters'- and the 6E one says they're only "close" to equalling those of the World Eaters.

Allow me to remind you the World Eaters are probably the legion with more casualities, with all the BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE that makes them fight against themselves in a somewhat regular basis (their "hero" Kharn chops whatever dudes are nearby regardless of them being allies or enemies after all).

So yes, the only reason the World Eaters have kept up as a force to be recognized with after 10 000 years of charging enemy gun lines on foot and chopping each other in Khorne's name is because their surgeons are top notch at geting replacements.:smallamused: