Kobold Kingdom - a game of mining and death traps

[Kensen]

The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm a game about kobolds. At first the idea is to define the game on a conceptual level, i.e. what the game is about and what can you do in the game. Later, if there is enough interest, rules will be designed for that game.

"Dig. Dig deeper. Find a home. Mine iron. Build traps. Forge Weapons. Prepare for war!"

Main features:

The game is a multiplayer game designed to be played on a messageboard as play-by-post. Players can leave whenever they feel like it and new players can join at any time.
Each player controls a kobold that has a set of skills (such as mining, crafting, fighting and so on) and some equipment.
The kobolds start off on a cavern map, and they can affect their environment through their actions: they can dig tunnels, rooms and pits, craft doors, traps, furniture and tools, and so on.
The kobolds can govern their domain as they please - elect a president, accept the rule of the strongest kobold, or run it like a business.
By accumulating wealth you can earn prestige, both personal and for your kingdom.
There's a calamity meter that increases each turn until something bad happens and it resets. Random fun happens!
Sooner or later other creatures will attack your kingdom. Make sure you have traps and weapons to defend yourselves!
(If this sounds a bit like Dwarf Fortress, aye, I'm a fan of the game and will re-use the best ideas from that game, but try to Keep It Simple.)


Mock-up map image

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J3WUChcCfOw/UGrvWH5OB_I/AAAAAAAAAIc/XV6I2J9iymc/s800/kob.png


Ideas, comments, let's hear them!

[Arkanist]

This looks great. Some ideas for include:

1) Raise and tame swarms of of vermin. Loose hordes of rats on your enemies and milk spiders for poison!

2)Magic. Not super powerful magic, more like little things. Illusions that cover up traps and cursed magic items that hapless adventurers pick up.

3) Finding random things in the environment. Mine and you may come across a dungeon full of monsters or a svirfneblin village ripe for raiding.

Also you could use ideas from that one dragon article or other books. All in all though, I'd love to play this. Keep up the good work!

[bobthe6th]

use simple out world map? needed for colection for wood.

also, as a calamity, a dragon takes up residents in the kobald caves. boost prestige, but the dragon demands wealth for its hoard, and can order certain tunnels be added.

[toapat]

use simple out world map? needed for colection for wood.

also, as a calamity, a dragon takes up residents in the kobald caves. boost prestige, but the dragon demands wealth for its hoard, and can order certain tunnels be added.

and the next calamity to happen is a drunken norse bard stumbles through the dungeon, shouts the dragon to death, and loots everything by sticking pots on the heads of the kobolds.

[Kensen]

This looks great. Some ideas for include:

1) Raise and tame swarms of of vermin. Loose hordes of rats on your enemies and milk spiders for poison!

2)Magic. Not super powerful magic, more like little things. Illusions that cover up traps and cursed magic items that hapless adventurers pick up.

3) Finding random things in the environment. Mine and you may come across a dungeon full of monsters or a svirfneblin village ripe for raiding.

Also you could use ideas from that one dragon article or other books. All in all though, I'd love to play this. Keep up the good work!


use simple out world map? needed for colection for wood.

also, as a calamity, a dragon takes up residents in the kobald caves. boost prestige, but the dragon demands wealth for its hoard, and can order certain tunnels be added.


and the next calamity to happen is a drunken norse bard stumbles through the dungeon, shouts the dragon to death, and loots everything by sticking pots on the heads of the kobolds.

Thanks! Great ideas, everyone. Big baddies who want to enslave the kobols or demand tribute will certainly appear every now and then, and naturally, there will be adventurers who want to make the world a better place by killing and looting the kobolds.

An outdoors map would be useful for the reason you mentioned, but I think kobolds usually avoid leaving the safety of their caverns. Besides, it'd make the map bigger -> more things to keep track of. I wonder if there's a way around it, such as using something else to fuel their forges.. dung perhaps? :D

Magic isn't high up on my list because it always complicates things. Trapmakers probably appreciate it if there are no mages around to take credit for making their traps hard to notice. :D

Random events that occur while mining sounds fun, I'll be sure to add that feature.

Pets and poisons are definitely a great idea as a concept, but I'll have to figure out a way to avoid micromanagement issues that may arise if it's possible to keep NPC creatures around. Poison also complicates things because you have to have a poison "flag" for each individual item to keep track of poisoned weapons. Or several of them if there are several poison types. If items have different materials and quality classes, it gets more complicated. Item management is going to be interesting... :D

Anyway, keep the ideas coming!!! (and feel free to counter my arguments if you have good implementation ideas. :) )

[Madara]

I certainly see traps as playing a large role. That being said, with the ability to find and disable said traps, some things should be timed, so people are rushed.

[Pokonic]

As said before, other beasties are a must. For instance, all that poison that is used in the trap's have to come from somewhere, and having to get a few potentualy hostile creatures under the kingdoms control would be fun. Even better, rock-eating creatures could be used to improve mining speeds.
"You have found a strange egg!"

Also to be noted are possible "allies". More dwell under the surface than just 'balds, and a few could be bribed to sit in one tunnel or another for extra protection if one wanders around in your tunnels long enough. Inteligent vermin are possible, but so are more traditinal Underdark dwellers and possibly things like Gargoyals or even a bound Outsider of sorts. Naturaly, keeping one of these things appeased could be a calamaty-worthy event. "Roguth Bla'flge the Stone Troll demands worship, lest he grinds you up in his mighty jaws!"

Religion is also a thing Kobolds have a tendancy for. Would a tribe let it's shamans get the upper hand on there actual leaders? Would Timats most favored son occasinaly bless a kobald with a holy task or perhapes powers of some sort? "Mister Bold begins to mumble and glow with unearthly light!"

[Creed]

This look very, very interesting. I'd love to help refine it, then play with it. A couple notes:

I immediately thought of this article:

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/


Next, are the adventurer invasions based on the calamity meter? Are there ways to change the calamity meter? Could trading iron ore with the locals make it less likely for a bunch of punks to come stomping in your dungeon?
Also, how are we generating the maps? I think a good way would be to have a standard base area, a main cavern, so to speak, with a systematically generated dungeon around it that leads to an entrance, how you get in and out. From this very basic cave system, you could expand in different directions, with the possibility of breaking into other caverns, or even a neighboring dungeon, releasing hostile monsters into your cave. Like kobold Minecraft, basically.
Also, what's the character creation like? You mentioned different skills, do these all start at 1 and then are improved via practice, or does each player get a set number of skill points to distribute? Food for thought.
This is all spitballing. No matter which direction this game goes, I want to play it.:smallsmile:

[Pichu999]

Here is a few ideas:
1. Gunpowder to be made into TNT
2. The power to befriend orcs, goblins, bugbears, thri-kreen, ect.
3. Mine up wood and stone to build houses aboveground In deserts you can craft cacti and sand to build, in caves you can have mushroom planks, ect. Yes I like minecraft.
4. Thri-kreen Slavers running in the desert, ready to take you or some other villagers as slaves!
5. Biomes
6. needle shooters and pendulums that you can dodge, but humans are shot by!
7. traps that look like dragon mouths and spit out breath weaponsThey are colored like the dragon in your cave if there is one, and shoots the same breath! all of these must be the same in one cavern, and can be changed for gold
8.Destroy caravans or loot raided caravans for supplies!
9. Give humans small amounts of gold and you can get into there towns for trading, bedding or sneaky attacks!
10. Giant ant nests full of gold! But watch out for giant ants!
11. Poison to put on weapons, or to build things like the pumps beekeepers use to send plumes of poison!They can be modified for fire, ice, acid, whatever!
12. Floods that wreck your home!
13. Build furniture and upgrade it with precious metal and gems!
14.Magmamagma+pit trap=fun for you, not for them!
15. If you use Arkanist's idea for illusions, make it so you can see it clearly while others can't!
16. buzzsaw traps?
17.Turn giant trees into termite-esque bases!
18. Make signs in kobold language so even if you put a warning sign, most won't expect anything!You can speak in this language to conceal plans!
19. Upgrade your pick and shovel!
20. Beehives and beekeeping, so the pumps in 11 are not only offensive!
21. Leeches, hostile fish, currents and lost tanglefoot bags flowing in the water make crossing even streams difficult!
22. Build boats to sail to other continents!
23. Use gunpowder to build flintlock pistols and cannons!
24. lovecraft stuff like mi-go, fish people, cthulu..
25. Make it so you can fight to get xp, and get class levels!
okay, it's not a few ideas, but they are good!

[Arkanist]

Poison also complicates things because you have to have a poison "flag" for each individual item to keep track of poisoned weapons. Or several of them if there are several poison types. If items have different materials and quality classes, it gets more complicated.


You could make 4 "Classes" of poison: A for contact, B for ingested, C for inhaled, D for injected. Then make 4 "Tiers" to denote the damage per round: A for Status, B for light damage, C moderate damage, D heavy damage. Then make similar tags for the statuses, be it sleep, death, or petrification, and a last fourth flag (third for damage) for how long until it works its way through the person's system (Or take effect). So instead of having to make a long tag describing something just put tags like "Type AAAA" and we'd just have to check the manual to know it's a contact poison that almost instantly slays its foe on the weapon, in the bite attack or effecting the enemy.

Example:
Bite Attack:ABD CLASS POISON

[Pichu999]

As said before, other beasties are a must. For instance, all that poison that is used in the trap's have to come from somewhere, and having to get a few potentualy hostile creatures under the kingdoms control would be fun. Even better, rock-eating creatures could be used to improve mining speeds.
"You have found a strange egg!"

Also to be noted are possible "allies". More dwell under the surface than just 'balds, and a few could be bribed to sit in one tunnel or another for extra protection if one wanders around in your tunnels long enough. Inteligent vermin are possible, but so are more traditinal Underdark dwellers and possibly things like Gargoyals or even a bound Outsider of sorts. Naturaly, keeping one of these things appeased could be a calamaty-worthy event. "Roguth Bla'flge the Stone Troll demands worship, lest he grinds you up in his mighty jaws!"

Religion is also a thing Kobolds have a tendancy for. Would a tribe let it's shamans get the upper hand on there actual leaders? Would Timats most favored son occasinaly bless a kobald with a holy task or perhapes powers of some sort? "Mister Bold begins to mumble and glow with unearthly light!"

Beasties could be interesting, but you would have to factor that they could turn hostile if not raised from birth, get rabies or, if it eats stone, accidentaly swoop around and bite anyone next to you in half!

I agree with these allies, but make it so you can hire assasins to kill any heroes in town, informants to tell you about anything, and monsters to block trading routes and give you a share of the supplies! The idea of a calamity for them is great! You could have any of my said ideas backfire if you ask for too much and start attacking!

Religion is a good idea, so you could have craftable totems, symbols or idols!
These could be used to add buffs, spring out magic, heal, give your god some extra favor for you with gold popping up overnight, and if none other, as decor!

Can't wait to see the finished game!

[Pichu999]

and the next calamity to happen is a drunken norse bard stumbles through the dungeon, shouts the dragon to death, and loots everything by sticking pots on the heads of the kobolds.

Dova-keen!

[Pichu999]

This look very, very interesting. I'd love to help refine it, then play with it. A couple notes:

I immediately thought of this article:

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/


Next, are the adventurer invasions based on the calamity meter? Are there ways to change the calamity meter? Could trading iron ore with the locals make it less likely for a bunch of punks to come stomping in your dungeon?
Also, how are we generating the maps? I think a good way would be to have a standard base area, a main cavern, so to speak, with a systematically generated dungeon around it that leads to an entrance, how you get in and out. From this very basic cave system, you could expand in different directions, with the possibility of breaking into other caverns, or even a neighboring dungeon, releasing hostile monsters into your cave. Like kobold Minecraft, basically.
Also, what's the character creation like? You mentioned different skills, do these all start at 1 and then are improved via practice, or does each player get a set number of skill points to distribute? Food for thought.
This is all spitballing. No matter which direction this game goes, I want to play it.:smallsmile:

Sure you could have skill points, but would it be 1 set permanent, or would your combat and traps gain xp for skills? Would there be feats? classes? paragon paths, epic destinies and multiclassing? It's a mad, subterrain, kobold filled world.

Also, there is up and down, so could you build stairs?

We need to see where ores are. Would they be visible anywhere, visible beside you, or a blind guess?

Many of my ideas were based off minecraft, too!

[Pichu999]

More ideas for the creative masses!
26. Giant worms that burrow into the caveThe spice MUST flow
27. Flowing water to make decorative rivers, or traps that "Flush" heroes away
28. Secret wall passages w secret doors!
29. Firing slots for said secret passages
30. Other kingdoms that you might bump into!
31. Bridges to get above water flows
32. Giant spiders which give you silk!The silk is able to be used in banners, flags, "Tents", and armor padding.
33. Grubs that you might find buried near the surface for food! There would also be antlions for sandy areas, but the giant versions would be a PAIN!
34. Copper plating for swords Make it have electrical enchantments twice as strong
35. Enchantments such as fire, ice on weapons adds effects, on armor it adds immunity if not already there
36. HUGE gems that are REALLY rare and just as valuable
37. fleshy cavern zones which are actually living things! You could get acid from them
38. Litches that come in, zombify everyone willy nilly, and steal the stuff think Xykon
39. spikes to put on stuff for extra damage
40. Sheilds for sheilding!
41. Dwarfs who could dig into your home! And vice versa!
42. Goblins who can make tricksy machines!
43. Steel, the bessemer process and putting diamonds into the metal to make it stronger!
44. Underground tree groves!
45. Underground fish to be used for oil and food! Oil+food=fried
If i'm mooching the good ideas, let me know!

[Kensen]

It's good to see that there are so many people interested in this, and that there are so many ideas flying around. :smallsmile:

I'll try to incorporate as many ideas to the game as is possible without making the game a overly complex mess. In a multiplayer game where there is no computer software to calculate everything and store and retrieve data automatically, it is a good idea to make sure that the amount of things one has to keep track of remains on a manageable level. The rules have to be fairly straightforward and transparent, so that newbies can start playing immediately. In short, we must do our best to keep the rules simple.

Also, when considering the inclusion of concepts that will later become part of the game rules, I think it's important to assess the suggested concepts based on three factors: 1) Is it something that defines kobold culture and society, something that they occasionally do, or something that they hardly ever do? 2) Does it fit well within the intended scope of the game (that is, building a home in a cavern and defending it)? 3) Is it easy to express it in rules text? Can you make it a simple die roll, or do you need a table, or an entirely new action resolution system to make it work? Remember, simple rules are usually the best.

And based on these three factors, the suggestions should be assigned to tiers that determine how important their inclusion in the rules is. I'll define the tiers as follows:

Tier 1: This cultural/gameplay concept usually appears in adventures or fiction about kobolds. AND/OR the kobolds need this thing to build/defend their home. They simply cannot survive without it or at least their life would be very difficult without it. AND/OR it is very easy to implement it in the rules. Example: Trap building - kobolds are small and cowardly, so they usually want to kill their enemies without risking their own lives.

Tier 2: Kobolds occasionally have this thing in fiction or adventures. AND/OR having this thing is very useful for a kobold to build/defend their homes, but their lives don't depend on it. AND/OR it is fairly easy to include it in the rules. Example: Poison - kobolds sometimes use poison to make their crossbow bolts and traps deadlier, but if no poison is available, they'll just add a few more spears and serrated disks to their traps to make sure they're deadly, no problem.

Tier 3: Kobolds rarely or never do this kind of thing. AND/OR it doesn't make sense for the kobolds to do this to build/defend their homes. AND/OR it would require complex rules to make it work. Example: Space travel - It's beyond their technological level and would mean that they'd have to leave their home caverns (that this game is about!). Not to mention that you'd need rules about space ships, planets, space monsters, etc, etc, etc...



I certainly see traps as playing a large role. That being said, with the ability to find and disable said traps, some things should be timed, so people are rushed.

Different types of triggering mechanisms should be available, so I think this is Tier 1 stuff (referring to the tier system introduced above).


As said before, other beasties are a must. For instance, all that poison that is used in the trap's have to come from somewhere, and having to get a few potentualy hostile creatures under the kingdoms control would be fun. Even better, rock-eating creatures could be used to improve mining speeds.
"You have found a strange egg!"

Also to be noted are possible "allies". More dwell under the surface than just 'balds, and a few could be bribed to sit in one tunnel or another for extra protection if one wanders around in your tunnels long enough. Inteligent vermin are possible, but so are more traditinal Underdark dwellers and possibly things like Gargoyals or even a bound Outsider of sorts. Naturaly, keeping one of these things appeased could be a calamaty-worthy event. "Roguth Bla'flge the Stone Troll demands worship, lest he grinds you up in his mighty jaws!"

Religion is also a thing Kobolds have a tendancy for. Would a tribe let it's shamans get the upper hand on there actual leaders? Would Timats most favored son occasinaly bless a kobald with a holy task or perhapes powers of some sort? "Mister Bold begins to mumble and glow with unearthly light!"

Pet beasties and allies are firmly in Tier 2. Pets (such as dire weasels) and humanoid allies sometimes appear in kobold fiction, but they're not one of their main shticks. They're definitely a "nice to have" thing, but I'm worried that they'll increase the amount of things that you have to keep track of. NPC enemies usually hang around for a round or two (they're either destroyed or they leave), but NPC allies stick around for a longer time. It's more work for the people playing the game to keep track of everything if there are a dozen creatures running around. You also need more rules to determine their behavior unless they're fully under the players' control. Allies/pets are ok if there's a way to keep things manageable.

Religion is definitely Tier 1. Easy to implement and most kobold tribes have shamans or other religious stuff going on. So, it shall be possible to build temples. Perhaps you can sacrifice stuff at temples to keep the calamity meter in check? Chosen ones and other stuff like that also sound good. Perhaps being a deity's favorite gives you a skill bonus and some bonus prestige (this would be a fairly simple way to implement it).


This look very, very interesting. I'd love to help refine it, then play with it. A couple notes:

I immediately thought of this article:

http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/


Next, are the adventurer invasions based on the calamity meter? Are there ways to change the calamity meter? Could trading iron ore with the locals make it less likely for a bunch of punks to come stomping in your dungeon?
Also, how are we generating the maps? I think a good way would be to have a standard base area, a main cavern, so to speak, with a systematically generated dungeon around it that leads to an entrance, how you get in and out. From this very basic cave system, you could expand in different directions, with the possibility of breaking into other caverns, or even a neighboring dungeon, releasing hostile monsters into your cave. Like kobold Minecraft, basically.
Also, what's the character creation like? You mentioned different skills, do these all start at 1 and then are improved via practice, or does each player get a set number of skill points to distribute? Food for thought.
This is all spitballing. No matter which direction this game goes, I want to play it.:smallsmile:

Oh yea, Tucker's Kobolds! I read it years ago and it's certainly affected the way I think about kobolds. Good article about traps and ingenious defense tactics.

Adventurers should be one of the calamities, just like all other "monsters". (They are monsters from the kobolds' point of view!) It's basically the kobolds' actions that entice other creatures to attack. At first it's mostly just unintelligent creatures that can smell the kobolds or feel the vibrations their mining operations make. Later on, rumors about their wealth also attracts intelligent creatures, including adventurers.

As for map generation, maybe there's initially just a natural cavern and a few tunnels leading to the edges of the map. The kobolds can naturally dig more tunnels and rooms and so on. I think that there should only be one level in the map, at least initially, to keep things simple and manageable.


Here is a few ideas:
1. Gunpowder to be made into TNT
2. The power to befriend orcs, goblins, bugbears, thri-kreen, ect.
3. Mine up wood and stone to build houses aboveground In deserts you can craft cacti and sand to build, in caves you can have mushroom planks, ect. Yes I like minecraft.
4. Thri-kreen Slavers running in the desert, ready to take you or some other villagers as slaves!
5. Biomes
6. needle shooters and pendulums that you can dodge, but humans are shot by!
7. traps that look like dragon mouths and spit out breath weaponsThey are colored like the dragon in your cave if there is one, and shoots the same breath! all of these must be the same in one cavern, and can be changed for gold
8.Destroy caravans or loot raided caravans for supplies!
9. Give humans small amounts of gold and you can get into there towns for trading, bedding or sneaky attacks!
10. Giant ant nests full of gold! But watch out for giant ants!
11. Poison to put on weapons, or to build things like the pumps beekeepers use to send plumes of poison!They can be modified for fire, ice, acid, whatever!
12. Floods that wreck your home!
13. Build furniture and upgrade it with precious metal and gems!
14.Magmamagma+pit trap=fun for you, not for them!
15. If you use Arkanist's idea for illusions, make it so you can see it clearly while others can't!
16. buzzsaw traps?
17.Turn giant trees into termite-esque bases!
18. Make signs in kobold language so even if you put a warning sign, most won't expect anything!You can speak in this language to conceal plans!
19. Upgrade your pick and shovel!
20. Beehives and beekeeping, so the pumps in 11 are not only offensive!
21. Leeches, hostile fish, currents and lost tanglefoot bags flowing in the water make crossing even streams difficult!
22. Build boats to sail to other continents!
23. Use gunpowder to build flintlock pistols and cannons!
24. lovecraft stuff like mi-go, fish people, cthulu..
25. Make it so you can fight to get xp, and get class levels!
okay, it's not a few ideas, but they are good!

Wow, that's a long list! :smallbiggrin: Thanks for all the ideas!

1. Tier 3 - too advanced for the koboldkind in a fantasy setting.
2. Tier 2 - a good idea if it's done so that it doesn't require keeping track of all the stats and equipment of the allied tribe.
3. Aboveground maps are Tier 2 or 3 - you need a lot more rules about resource types and terrain, etc. if you can go aboveground. Maybe something that should be saved for a later, an expansion to the basic cavern scenarios.
4. Tier 3 - No desert maps (yet), and being held hostage doesn't sound like a fun way to spend your game turns. :smalltongue:
5. Also, no biomes just yet. Gotta get the basic stuff together first and think about biomes and such later.
6. & 7. Tier 1 - traps, traps, traps! Except a trap that looks like a dragon may be a bit too obvious for the crafty kobolds...
8. Underground caravans might be ok,
9. Going to town goes a bit beyond the scope of the game, so Tier 3.
10. Tier 2ish - giant ants are certainly such nasty creatures that they should be included. Perhaps there could be a calamity that giant ants make a nest near the kobolds' lair, causing all kinds of trouble.
11. Tier 2 - a fun idea, but needs some thinking to make it work.
12. Tier 1 or 2 - sounds fun, but as magma, may be tricky to implement.
13. Tier 1 - absolutely. Kobolds need furniture set with gems to boost their ego prestige.
14. Tier 1 or 2 - magma is fun, but without algorithms to direct the magma flows, it may be tricky to implement.
15. Tier 2 - magic is a bit tricky. Many tribes do have sorcerers, but it's more a matter of how to implement it. Magic can make an individual immensely powerful. Is is something every kobold can do if they want to?
16. Tier 1 if mechanically powered serrated disks but Tier 3 if modern buzzsaws. It's a matter of flavor. :smallcool:
17. Sounds a bit complex, and I don't think kobolds are termite experts, so I'll say Tier 3.
18. Tier 1 - yes, signs in the kobold language sound fun and shouldn't be too difficult to include.
19. Tier 1 - absolutely, the kobolds need better equipment. They learn to craft higher quality tools and/or they find better materials.
20. Tier 2 or 3 - it's not very kobold-ey to have bee farms, and it'd probably require specific rules about beekeeping unless the hives are just a simple building that produces resources (food and poison).
21. Tier 1 - yeah those underground rivers and ponds are full of nasty surprises.
22. Tier 3 because it takes the kobolds away from the caverns they love. Besides, kobolds aren't usually seafarers.
23. Tier 3 because of the technology level. Otherwise it would be a great idea.
24. Tier 2 or 3 - I love Lovecraft, but most of the things are so powerful that they'd just ruin the fun for the kobolds. Maybe as a major calamity, an elder being shows up and demands tribute or worship.
25. Tier 1 - definitely, your skill levels increase with experience.



You could make 4 "Classes" of poison: A for contact, B for ingested, C for inhaled, D for injected. Then make 4 "Tiers" to denote the damage per round: A for Status, B for light damage, C moderate damage, D heavy damage. Then make similar tags for the statuses, be it sleep, death, or petrification, and a last fourth flag (third for damage) for how long until it works its way through the person's system (Or take effect). So instead of having to make a long tag describing something just put tags like "Type AAAA" and we'd just have to check the manual to know it's a contact poison that almost instantly slays its foe on the weapon, in the bite attack or effecting the enemy.

Example:
Bite Attack:ABD CLASS POISON

It'd be a pretty solid system for an RPG, but I don't think Kobold Kingdom needs that much detail. Poison should be a simple +x on a roll to keep things simple. If traps and attacks have a lethality rating, you can increase the lethality rating by +x by applying poison.


Beasties could be interesting, but you would have to factor that they could turn hostile if not raised from birth, get rabies or, if it eats stone, accidentaly swoop around and bite anyone next to you in half!

I agree with these allies, but make it so you can hire assasins to kill any heroes in town, informants to tell you about anything, and monsters to block trading routes and give you a share of the supplies! The idea of a calamity for them is great! You could have any of my said ideas backfire if you ask for too much and start attacking!

Religion is a good idea, so you could have craftable totems, symbols or idols!
These could be used to add buffs, spring out magic, heal, give your god some extra favor for you with gold popping up overnight, and if none other, as decor!

Can't wait to see the finished game!

Hiring assassins to kill heroes living in a town goes well beyond the scope of the game- the game's not about heroes and towns. :smallsmile: Crafting religious items is a very good idea, however.


Sure you could have skill points, but would it be 1 set permanent, or would your combat and traps gain xp for skills? Would there be feats? classes? paragon paths, epic destinies and multiclassing? It's a mad, subterrain, kobold filled world.

Also, there is up and down, so could you build stairs?

We need to see where ores are. Would they be visible anywhere, visible beside you, or a blind guess?

Many of my ideas were based off minecraft, too!

You gain xp when you use your skills. Perhaps you get a point-buy when you begin playing, and from there the skill ranks go up as your kobold becomes more experienced. No feats are necessary, the kobold stats should be abstract enough. Feats, classes, etc. are fine in D&D, but quite unnecessary in a strategy / resource management / community game like this.

In the first version of the game, I'd say no, no stairs or "Z-levels". Just one map, one level. But later when the core rules are fully developed, it is an idea worth considering.

Ores.... well I've thought about that too, and don't know yet how it should be done. Maybe you can take a surveying action to find where the top quality ores are. Or maybe you just roll a die when you mine and get a random result. The latter option would be soooooo much easier to write as rules and wouldn't require any input from the GM, so the game would run smoother. But not very realistic... The other easy option would be that you can see all the ores on the map and you can plan accordingly. Again, not very realistic. Any ideas?

[Pichu999]

Ores.... well I've thought about that too, and don't know yet how it should be done. Maybe you can take a surveying action to find where the top quality ores are. Or maybe you just roll a die when you mine and get a random result. The latter option would be soooooo much easier to write as rules and wouldn't require any input from the GM, so the game would run smoother. But not very realistic... The other easy option would be that you can see all the ores on the map and you can plan accordingly. Again, not very realistic. Any ideas?

You could do the first, or you could take a die roll every time you mine a block. I dunno, pretty tough decision.

[radmelon]

You could do the first, or you could take a die roll every time you mine a block. I dunno, pretty tough decision.

Well, you could get a semblance of realism by having the die roll be modified by what the previous block was, to increase the chance of getting the same ores in a row.

[Kensen]

Well, you could get a semblance of realism by having the die roll be modified by what the previous block was, to increase the chance of getting the same ores in a row.

Yeah that would be more realistic than a completely random roll. If you always pick a block adjacent to the previous one, that is. Well, there's no need to decide yet. Different options can be playtested later so we'll find out which is the best one.

[Pichu999]

I
3. Aboveground maps are Tier 2 or 3 - you need a lot more rules about resource types and terrain, etc. if you can go aboveground. Maybe something that should be saved for a later, an expansion to the basic cavern scenarios.
4. Tier 3 - No desert maps (yet), and being held hostage doesn't sound like a fun way to spend your game turns. :smalltongue:


You don't need to be aboveground, it could just be different type underground blocks! example: for antlions in 33, the biome could be just sand blocks.

You wouldn't be JUST hostage, it would be more slave labor. This idea was a work in progress. It was NOT updated when I did 26-30

[Beacon of Chaos]

Ooh, I like the sound of this. Seems like it will be fun.

What kind of kobolds are you going for? The lizard-like ones, the rat-like ones, or the more traditional goblin-like ones?

I don't have much to input, save that kobold zombies and skeletons should be a thing. And elementals as monsters (earth types would be most common, with air types being rarer).

[Kensen]

Ooh, I like the sound of this. Seems like it will be fun.

What kind of kobolds are you going for? The lizard-like ones, the rat-like ones, or the more traditional goblin-like ones?

I don't have much to input, save that kobold zombies and skeletons should be a thing. And elementals as monsters (earth types would be most common, with air types being rarer).

The 3.X / Pathfinder / 4e kobolds / OotS kobolds, i.e., the scaly ones because that's the only kind of kobolds most people these days know. There's no need to go into details when explaining their physiology and appearance. Obviously, many people on these boards like the OotS kobolds with more rounded heads and orange skin, while some people prefer the more dragonlike PF kobolds whose skin color varies from tribe to tribe. And then there are those who prefer the 3e/4e kobolds who have dark rusty skin and glowing red eyes. So I think it's better to focus on what all kobolds have in common and let the players' imagination fill in the rest.

Undead creatures and elementals, yep, sounds like a fun way to challenge the kobolds. :smallsmile:


You don't need to be aboveground, it could just be different type underground blocks! example: for antlions in 33, the biome could be just sand blocks.

You wouldn't be JUST hostage, it would be more slave labor. This idea was a work in progress. It was NOT updated when I did 26-30

Ah, underground biomes! Well yes that might work. I'm thinking I'll make a random mining table with ordinary rock such as granite (for crafting), coal (for fueling the forges), metal ores, gems, etc. GMs may create different tables for different "biomes" if they wish.

As for the slavers, that would require a lot of work on the GM's part, detailing the thri-kreen camp and such. Thri-kreen snatchers are fine, but to keep things fairly simple, I'd say it's the end of the kobolds who end up being kidnapped. The insect men EAT them. :smalltongue:

And yes, all ideas are "work in progress" at this stage. Thanks for all your input! :smallsmile:

[The Zoat]

This reminds me very much of dwarf fortress.

If you're going to include goblins, svirfneblin and other things, making them playable is the obvious next step. This is, of course Kobold Kingdom, but I know many d&d games without dragons OR dungeons.

[Pichu999]

This reminds me very much of dwarf fortress.

If you're going to include goblins, svirfneblin and other things, making them playable is the obvious next step. This is, of course Kobold Kingdom, but I know many d&d games without dragons OR dungeons.

I don't think the game is about choosing a race. It could be nifty, but it might ruin the flavor.

[Kensen]

This reminds me very much of dwarf fortress.

If you're going to include goblins, svirfneblin and other things, making them playable is the obvious next step. This is, of course Kobold Kingdom, but I know many d&d games without dragons OR dungeons.

As stated in the OP, DF is one of my main influences. :smallsmile:

Of course, you could just "re-skin" the kobolds and be done with it. But since the game rules will be focusing on stuff that kobolds do, rules modifications would be needed for different races. Goblins, for example, are not known for their penchant for traps and mining. They have different signature behavior, and thus need different rules. I'm not planning to make Kobold Kingdom a universal rules system that covers all fantasy races - that would be a far too ambitious project.

[Soliloquy]

I smell supplements!
Svirfneblin State
and
Goblin Ground

[Kensen]

I smell supplements!
Svirfneblin State
and
Goblin Ground

Lizardman Lair, Drow Dungeon, etc. etc. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, back to our current project. It seems that there's enough interest for this game (11 people already replied) to move on to the next phase.

It's useful to start thinking about what "modules" or "chapters" the rules set will consist of, and to think about how the different parts of the rules interact with each other. So, I'm suggesting the following structure for the core rules. (The definition of core rules being here that the game cannot be played, or the game will no longer be the kobold game envisioned in this thread if you remove any part of the core rules.

Here's my suggestion:

Setting up the game map

(This chapter/module explains how a new map is generated.)

Action resolution mechanics

(How attacks, crafting and other actions are resolved. D20 + total skill bonus vs target number? 3d6 + total skill bonus vs target number? Something else?)

Skills

New kobolds can buy skill ranks in a way reminiscent of attribute point-buy in D&D. Each rank gives you a cumulative +1 bonus on using the skill. A kobold with no ranks in a skill has an effective bonus of +0 (or can they make skill checks "untrained" at all?)

Skills include combat skills (melee, marksmanship, dodging?), crafting and building skills and mining skills. (And what else?)

Equipment

Equipment have three attributes: type, material and quality.
Type determines what skill and action types it is used for. (Example: Type = pick --> it can be used to make mining checks.
Material and quality make up the item bonus which together with skill ranks determine the total skill bonus.
The order in which an item's type, material and quality are listed is always [quality][material][type], for example Masterwork adamantine pick.
Most tools, such as picks and hammers, double as weapons. Actual weapon have better attack bonuses, though. Armor increases your defense. Equipment made of rare materials increase your prestige.

Mining

(How to mine. How fast you progress (<--total skill bonus) and what are your chances of finding coal, iron, gold, gems and other minerals and ores.)

Crafting

(How to make equipment. How your total skill bonus, materials and item type affect the time it takes to craft an item and what its quality will be.)

Traps and furniture

(How to build these things and what they do.)

Buildings and other structures

(How to build as forges, temples, walls and other structures, and what you can do with them.)

Game rounds

(How long is one game round in the kobolds' lives. How many action points you get each round for mining, crafting, building, etc.)

Calamities

(How often and what calamities occur, and how they affect the kobolds' lives.)

Combat

(How to resolve duels, revolts and combat resulting from calamities. Does combat interrupt the normal flow of game rounds, or are they automatically resolved?)


Comments?

[Pichu999]

You've mentioned death before, but what happens at death? Do you respawn? Do you make a new kobold? Or are you banned from the server?

Can you use skeleton heads on posts for intimidation bonuses (+1 in adjacent room)?

How about the modules? Could they be modded? Or would there be a final "Mods module"?
Would tell how to make your own traps, biomes, weapons, monsters, furniture and stuff to be put in the game as a mod

[Kensen]

You've mentioned death before, but what happens at death? Do you respawn? Do you make a new kobold? Or are you banned from the server?

Can you use skeleton heads on posts for intimidation bonuses (+1 in adjacent room)?

How about the modules? Could they be modded? Or would there be a final "Mods module"?
Would tell how to make your own traps, biomes, weapons, monsters, furniture and stuff to be put in the game as a mod

Death? Death kills. :smalltongue: New kobold is the most logical answer. Most kobolds are such lowly creatures that it doesn't make sense for powerful beings to resurrect them. If the players think a permanent death is too cruel, maybe you can play the late kobold's heir or cousin and inherit some of their stuff and skills. But not all. Death should mean something. It's the fear of pain and death that makes kobolds the cowardly creatures they are.

If there is a player limit, death may mean that you have to queue until a few more kobolds die or drop out to be able to join again. Each individual GM can decide if they want to use a player limit.

Skulls? Well, you can certainly put your trophies on display in a room. Whether it has a mechanical effect or if it's just cool flavor -- I'm not sure yet. Maybe a prestige bonus. Prestige does, by the way, determine your standing in the kobold society.

A kobold with sufficiently high prestige can veto the actions of lower kobolds. If you annoy them too much, however, they can resort to violence and take your stuff and prestige. Power to the people! :smallcool:

A module mod? Hmm, I think it'll be fairly easy to create mods for the game just by looking at the existing traps, furniture, creatures, etc. and use them as a guideline. The game won't be anywhere near as complex as D&D, so it won't be difficult to adjust the rules without breaking anything.

[Kensen]

Here's an example of what the mining table might look like:

d%
01-50 Empty (doesn't necessarily make sense from a realism point of view, but otherwise the dungeon will fill up pretty fast OR a lot of kobolds would be needed for hauling the stuff away -- to be decided)
51-80 Common rock (granite and such, can be used for building and crafting)
81-90 Coal (can be used to fuel the forges)
91-96 Iron (...weapons, armor, traps, tools, etc. etc.)
97-98 Precious metals (roll again in another table?)
99-00 Precious stones (roll again in another table?)

Obviously, things like copper are missing. But at any rate, there shouldn't be TOO many different kinds of ores and minerals on the list or it'll just get confusing.

Nb. The mining skill doesn't affect your roll on this table -- it only affects how many squares/blocks of rock you can mine in a game round.

Comments?

[Beacon of Chaos]

I like the idea of skills being very simple to see what they do, so the mining skill being how many blocks you can mine per turn is a good idea. You should do similar things with other skills. So cooking allows you to feed one kobold per skill point per meal, crafting allows you to make one item per skill point per day, combat deals damage equal to skill points plus whatever bonuses you get from your weapon.

Going back to the mining, I agree that not putting too many ores on the table is a good idea. Maybe just have gold and gems instead of precious metals and precious stones. Keep it simple. Should iron be a little more common? I imagine kobolds would need a lot of it for weapons and traps.

[Arkanist]

Skill rolls could be rolling 2d4 and trying to get below your skill level, with bonuses such as special circumstances offering an increased effective skill level for the purposes of the roll.

A trap would require to roll a 2d4 and get below the trap level to evade it.

And maybe some special thing you could do to make yourself a prestigious "Super Kobold"?

[Pichu999]

Lizardman Lair, Drow Dungeon, etc. etc. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, back to our current project. It seems that there's enough interest for this game (11 people already replied) to move on to the next phase.

It's useful to start thinking about what "modules" or "chapters" the rules set will consist of, and to think about how the different parts of the rules interact with each other. So, I'm suggesting the following structure for the core rules. (The definition of core rules being here that the game cannot be played, or the game will no longer be the kobold game envisioned in this thread if you remove any part of the core rules.

Here's my suggestion:

Setting up the game map

(This chapter/module explains how a new map is generated.)

Action resolution mechanics

(How attacks, crafting and other actions are resolved. D20 + total skill bonus vs target number? 3d6 + total skill bonus vs target number? Something else?)

Skills

New kobolds can buy skill ranks in a way reminiscent of attribute point-buy in D&D. Each rank gives you a cumulative +1 bonus on using the skill. A kobold with no ranks in a skill has an effective bonus of +0 (or can they make skill checks "untrained" at all?)

Skills include combat skills (melee, marksmanship, dodging?), crafting and building skills and mining skills. (And what else?)

Equipment

Equipment have three attributes: type, material and quality.
Type determines what skill and action types it is used for. (Example: Type = pick --> it can be used to make mining checks.
Material and quality make up the item bonus which together with skill ranks determine the total skill bonus.
The order in which an item's type, material and quality are listed is always [quality][material][type], for example Masterwork adamantine pick.
Most tools, such as picks and hammers, double as weapons. Actual weapon have better attack bonuses, though. Armor increases your defense. Equipment made of rare materials increase your prestige.

Mining

(How to mine. How fast you progress (<--total skill bonus) and what are your chances of finding coal, iron, gold, gems and other minerals and ores.)

Crafting

(How to make equipment. How your total skill bonus, materials and item type affect the time it takes to craft an item and what its quality will be.)

Traps and furniture

(How to build these things and what they do.)

Buildings and other structures

(How to build as forges, temples, walls and other structures, and what you can do with them.)

Game rounds

(How long is one game round in the kobolds' lives. How many action points you get each round for mining, crafting, building, etc.)

Calamities

(How often and what calamities occur, and how they affect the kobolds' lives.)

Combat

(How to resolve duels, revolts and combat resulting from calamities. Does combat interrupt the normal flow of game rounds, or are they automatically resolved?)


Comments?


Can we still throw around ideas in phase 2?

[Kensen]

I like the idea of skills being very simple to see what they do, so the mining skill being how many blocks you can mine per turn is a good idea. You should do similar things with other skills. So cooking allows you to feed one kobold per skill point per meal, crafting allows you to make one item per skill point per day, combat deals damage equal to skill points plus whatever bonuses you get from your weapon.

Going back to the mining, I agree that not putting too many ores on the table is a good idea. Maybe just have gold and gems instead of precious metals and precious stones. Keep it simple. Should iron be a little more common? I imagine kobolds would need a lot of it for weapons and traps.

Perhaps it's be a good idea to remove the element of chance when determining how much you can do in a game round, so it's easier to plan ahead. But I suggest that we use a die roll to determine how well you perform the action. At least in combat. Maybe in crafting as well.

Furthermore, some players may want to do different kinds of things in a game round. Of course, most of the time it makes sense to just mine if you're a mine or craft if you're a crafter, but not always. So I'm suggesting that each kobold gets a number of action points each round. If for example, they get 20 AP per round, and mining a block with skill level 2 takes 8 AP, you can still use the remaining 12 AP for crafting, hauling stuff, building a wall, or practicing melee fighting, to name a few examples.

Simplifying the mining table as you suggested makes sense. Granite, coal, iron, gold and gems are basically the only materials the kobolds need to build their kingdom. More materials (mithril, adamantine, etc.) can be added later. Yeah, iron is quite rare, but maybe you get lots of it when you find a deposit. Or I can increase the chance of finding it but make the amount lower.


Skill rolls could be rolling 2d4 and trying to get below your skill level, with bonuses such as special circumstances offering an increased effective skill level for the purposes of the roll.

A trap would require to roll a 2d4 and get below the trap level to evade it.

And maybe some special thing you could do to make yourself a prestigious "Super Kobold"?

Personally, I find rolling under counter-intuitive because it makes smaller numbers better, but YMMV. I'd probably use 1d20 or 3d6 (or any xDx) + skill (and item) bonus VS level of difficulty rather than a roll-under method. Any other methods we should consider?

If you attempt to roll below the trap level to evade it, how do your defensive skill(s) affect it? Is the skill level a modifier when evading traps? (IF the "roll under skill level" method is used, I don't think traps should be an exception.)

Hmm, as I see it, a kobold with the best equipment, good skills and lots of prestige is certainly a force to reckon with, but what do you mean with super kobold?


Can we still throw around ideas in phase 2?

Absolutely!

[Pichu999]

Here's an example of what the mining table might look like:

d%
01-50 Empty (doesn't necessarily make sense from a realism point of view, but otherwise the dungeon will fill up pretty fast OR a lot of kobolds would be needed for hauling the stuff away -- to be decided)
51-80 Common rock (granite and such, can be used for building and crafting)
81-90 Coal (can be used to fuel the forges)
91-96 Iron (...weapons, armor, traps, tools, etc. etc.)
97-98 Precious metals (roll again in another table?)
99-00 Precious stones (roll again in another table?)

Obviously, things like copper are missing. But at any rate, there shouldn't be TOO many different kinds of ores and minerals on the list or it'll just get confusing.

Nb. The mining skill doesn't affect your roll on this table -- it only affects how many squares/blocks of rock you can mine in a game round.

Comments?



You should have 01-10 grubs. These are short-term food sources that aren't that tasty but can be fried.How To Eat Fried Worms by Tohmas Rockwell

And it could be 91-96 is ore vein (small)
and 97-00 could be ore deposit (big)

[Kensen]

I don't think food should appear on the mining table -- it's unlikely that a mass of larvae will burst out from a wall when you hit it with a pickaxe -- but there should probably be rules for food and water.

[Creed]

Haven't stopped by in a while: loving the progress!

Since we're starting to work on the core rulebook, should we just start from chapter 1, cleverly named "The Set Up"? It's useful to have a vast array of ideas on what we want to do, but after some experience in rudimentary game design I know how easy it can be to get wrapped up in the details before defining the big aspects of the game in production.

I'm going to look at some map generation stuff and mock up rules for stuff. I'm also going to look at characters and see what a decent idea for those would be.

[Creed]

Alright, just a quick little blurb, heavy work-in-progress. I'll be updating from time to time as we go along, feel free to chime in.
Basically, I took what we've already come up with and ran with it, starting the flesh out at least a placeholder foundation for the game to come. I also threw Kensen's name on it, hope no one minds, as this is his child, after all.

Google docs link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17Qi-dWHD-l_NlFJQhnkzUAxqq0i6F_bX7ZfJm_9acnk/edit


So, yeah, putting some hours in on our girl Kobold Kingdoms.

[Kensen]

That's pretty awesome! Thanks! You should put your own name there too since you've already put many hours into it. I'll have a closer look at it later and write some comments. :smallsmile:

[Pichu999]

Alright, just a quick little blurb, heavy work-in-progress. I'll be updating from time to time as we go along, feel free to chime in.
Basically, I took what we've already come up with and ran with it, starting the flesh out at least a placeholder foundation for the game to come. I also threw Kensen's name on it, hope no one minds, as this is his child, after all.

Google docs link:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17Qi-dWHD-l_NlFJQhnkzUAxqq0i6F_bX7ZfJm_9acnk/edit


So, yeah, putting some hours in on our girl Kobold Kingdoms.

I have sent an email asking for acess to edit. I won't delete without asking permission, but I may add some ideas.

[Creed]

I have sent an email asking for acess to edit. I won't delete without asking permission, but I may add some ideas.

Added to whitelist. Kept it in comment only as default so someone doesn't stumble in and change everything without us seeing. Go for it and toss some ideas down.

[Analytica]

Idea: if individual kobolds gain most of their XP or the like from making traps, there is an incentive for everyone to keep adding more and more hidden, dangerous traps. This way, eventually there will be traps everywhere, without anyone really remembering where they came from. This is a good thing to incentivize. :smallsmile:

[Arkanist]

I'm envisioning shamanism spells being something like ad&d first edition spells. You'd have spells (Since we're all just kobolds here they'd be like first level spells) and cantrips, which can be used to take up 4 spell slots though have very minor and utilitarian effects. These spells can be very useful when used with finesse. You'd start out with a few though you'd need to find or research more. Here's an example...

Ak-Tok the shaman has shamanism as a good skill and can memorize 3 spells per day. He chooses to put 4 cantrips as his first slot, ghost sound as his second, and hold portal as his third. While overseeing the inventory he uses the cantrip "Perserve" to make sure the meat doesn't go bad by creating a thin layer of salt around it.

Later, Olaf the Inebriated stumbles upon their tunnel in hopes of finding some gold. He quickly hides all of his kobolds behind the last door and uses his second spell to hold the door shut. When Olaf bangs loudly on it, his third spell creates the sound of a roaring dragon behind the door. Scared by this, Olaf flees and Ak-Tok is the hero of the day. However, with all those material components he used up, he'll need to find some more before he can hope to ward off his enemies again...

[Creed]

So, in a fit of rage last night I finished the skills. In theory, characters can now be created, at least in a very rudimentary form.
So, my list now includes:


Additional Crafting Recipies
Calamity Meter
Advancement
Combat


Those are my big points, at least for this week.

[Kensen]

Lots of new stuff, that's good. It's shaping up to be slightly different from what I had in mind, but that's alright. There are a number of things I'd like to comment on, and I hope I'll find the time to do that sometime soon! :smallsmile:

[Creed]

Great, it is your baby after all. Your feedback is what I want the most.