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Adamantrue
2012-10-11, 02:34 PM
I should note that I am now aware of the WoW Battle Ram, but this idea was brewed up independently, ignorant of its existence until recently. So it probably doesn't reflect that concept, if that's what you are looking for, because it isn't meant to.

Anyways, I wanted to distinguish some of my races/cultures from each other, and one of the first things on my list was to have alternative mundane mounts/beasts of burden for various races. I thought a Ram could be a good choice for my Gnomes & Dwarves, as they generally share similar environments.

Of course, I haven't come across any published versions, so I had to make one. It occurred to me that I could start by downgrading a Bison a size category, and get in the right general ballpark.

SRD Bison, for reference: Bison
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, +4 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stampede
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6-30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Advancement: 6-7 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of bison flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five bison in the herd (Reflex DC 18 half). The save DC is Strength-based.
OK, so now a simple downgrade & refluff: "Ram"
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+5 (27 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Butt +5 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Butt +5 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stampede
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Temperate hills or mountains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6-30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Advancement: 6-7 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of rams flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Medium size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d10 points of damage for each five rams in the herd (Reflex DC 14 half). The save DC is Strength-based.
We have something that can work in a pinch, but doesn't really feel like a Ram. And as far as game mechanics go, its a little too tough & hits just a little too hard for CR 1, but is underpowered for CR 2.

The reason I wanted to go with a Ram is for something a little more sure-footed in mountainous terrain, a little more exotic than a horse but not at all alien. Something that would make sense to be domesticated as more of a workhorse for Gnomes & Dwarves.

So, I'm going to start by adding a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Jump checks in rocky terrain, and increasing its Strength by +2. Stampede doesn't seem appropriate, so I'll drop that. To compensate, I'm going to focus the Feats more, going with Power Attack & Improved Bull Rush.

So, the final result:

Heavy Ram
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+4 (22 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: Butt +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Butt +6 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +1
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Balance +5*, Climb +8*, Listen +5, Jump +8*, Spot +3
Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack
Environment: Temperate hills or mountains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6-30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Advancement: 5-7 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -
A ram cannot fight while carrying a rider.
Combat
A ram's butt attack is treated as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack.
Skills
A ram has a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Jump checks in rocky terrain.
Carrying Capacity
A light load for a ram is up to 114 pounds; a medium load, 115-229 pounds; and a heavy load, 230-345 pounds. A ram can drag 1,725 pounds.
Gnomes may ride rams, but Dwarves and Gnomes generally ride in carts behind a team of rams.

Not exactly happy about the way I worded those last two points, and I'm not sure whether I listed the Skill correctly. But altogether, that looks about right.

But wait, that was just the normal animal. What about the mount?

Battleram
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (39 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+8
Attack: Butt +8 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: Butt +8 melee (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Push
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Balance +5*, Climb +9*, Listen +5, Jump +9*, Spot +3
Feats: Cometary Collision, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack
Environment: Temperate hills or mountains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6-30)
Challenge Rating: 3
Advancement: 7-8 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -
A battleram can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.
Combat
A battleram's butt attack is treated as a two-handed weapon for the purpose of Power Attack.
Push [Ex]: A battleram that hits with a butt attack can attempt to bull rush the opponent 5 ft as a free action.
Skills
A battleram has a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Jump checks in rocky terrain.
Carrying Capacity
A light load for a battleram is up to 150 pounds; a medium load, 151-300 pounds; and a heavy load, 301-450 pounds. A battleram can drag 2,250 pounds.
Gnomes may ride a battleram, but Dwarves and Gnomes generally ride in chariots behind a team of battlerams.

I still have a few questions about this. First...did I do my math right?

I dunno how to figure out some things. Price for one, and then there is figuring out how they fit in the whole Animal Companion/Special Mount scheme.

Dumbledore lives
2012-10-11, 06:04 PM
The battle Ram should have one more feat, since it has 6 hit dice. I'd suggest Shock Trooper, but he doesn't quite have the BAB for it, so maybe something like Toughness, which seems to fit a ram. Though if you wanted something like Endurance might also work.

I'm sure you know this as well but a Battle Ram would only be suited for small or smaller riders, when typically upgraded versions of animals up a size as well, which would make it appropriate for everyone, well medium sized people at least. As for price, that's generally more of a loose rule than anything, so I'd suggest a few thousand GP maybe. Since it's CR 3 it shouldn't be acquired until maybe level 5, so I'd say maybe 4000 for a full grown and trained Ram, though cheaper for an untrained or child one.

GnomeGninjas
2012-10-11, 06:56 PM
Should a ordinary ram really have more hitpoints than a second level barbarian? I've never faught a ram or a barbarian warrior but I'm guess a barbarian warrior would be harder to kill.

Debihuman
2012-10-11, 11:40 PM
Just for comparison sake, here is the Dire Goat from Tome of Horrors Revised page 387. It is open content.


DIRE GOAT
Medium Animal (Dire)
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Head butt +6 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: Head butt +6 melee (1d6+6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 1d6+4
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, pack (2-5), or herd (6-11)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment:

This giant goat stands as tall as a halfling at the shoulder. Its fur is whitish-brown and its horns are yellowish-brown. Dire goats stand 3 feet tall at the shoulder and resemble their smaller cousins.

Although they are normally wild, domesticated dire goats are not unheard of. They are domesticated their meat as well as the amounts of milk they can produce.

Combat

Dire goats are non-aggressive unless threatened or provoked. A dire goat rams opponents with its head, or tries to run them over.

Trample (Ex): Reflex DC 15 half. The save DC is Strength-based.

Debby

Adamantrue
2012-10-12, 06:07 AM
To distinguish from WoW, should I just call the Warsheep or something?

Spotted another math error. Didn't subtract from Listen & Spot when removing the Alertness Feat. Fix it in a moment. I don't think Shock Trooper would be right, but perhaps Cometary Collision?
Should a ordinary ram really have more hitpoints than a second level barbarian? I've never faught a ram or a barbarian warrior but I'm guess a barbarian warrior would be harder to kill. I think it depends on the breed. What you'd normally find on a farm, probably not, but the 400 lb Argali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argali), yeah, I could see that being sturdier than a hardy human.

Its a good point though. I should probably separate them into light & heavy breeds, like horses are, and make the above the heavy variety. Though I could remove 1 HD from that version. I'd like to keep 6 HD on the Battleram, though.

Debihuman, do you think it would be fair to say that the Dire Goat stats you provided would fit the 300 lb Boer Goat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_goat), give or take?

Deepbluediver
2012-10-12, 08:25 AM
First, let me say I think this is great. I absolutely love the fluff about ridding into battle in a chariot pulled by battle-goats. It's a nice little touch.


Should a ordinary ram really have more hitpoints than a second level barbarian? I've never faught a ram or a barbarian warrior but I'm guess a barbarian warrior would be harder to kill.

Just for comparison, a regular Horse and a Light Warhorse have 19 and 22 hp respectively, and a Heavy Warhorse has 30. So for it's size, the Ram seems to have a few more HP. It's also considerably slower (Light Horse is 60 ft/ round, Heavy horse is 50 ft). I don't know what ratio of HP to speed you think is fair, but the tradeoff seems even-ish to me. Alternatively, if you want to reduce the HP, then claim that their thick coat gives them a natural armor bonus or DR.


Also, while I appreciate the attempts to link these to real world creatures, since this is D&D what I really need now is for you to stat me out a Large dire War-Ram (different from Debi's) so my ogre-mage has something to tow him into battle. :smalltongue:

Adamantrue
2012-10-12, 09:53 AM
Interesting. Same book as Debihuman listed, Tome of Horrors, still Open Content:
DIRE RAM
Large Animal (Dire)
Hit Dice: 5d8+20 (42 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10,flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+14
Attack: Butt +9 melee (1d8+10)
Full Attack: Butt +9 melee (1d8+10)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ferocity
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 24, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha5
Skills: Listen +5, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Diehard, Endurance
Environment: Temperate mountains, hills, and plains
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-9 HD (Large); 10-15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

This giant, feral ram is nearly as long as two humans are tall. Its coat is whitish-brown and its horns are dark brown.
Dire rams are larger, meaner cousins of normal rams. They can grow to a length of 10 feet and weigh as much as 1,000 pounds.
Dire rams are the majestic lords of their domain, and tolerate not incursion by predators.
Combat
A dire ram charges its opponents, trying to butt with its horns.
Ferocity (Ex): A dire ram is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even when disabled or dying. In Tome of Horrors, "Dire" is a Template, which means it can be reversed. When I get to a better location to work, I'm gonna try reversing this, and see where the results go. Maybe it hits in the right ballpark better than my admittedly sloppy attempt.

Adamantrue
2012-10-12, 11:04 AM
RAM
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (+1 Dex, +1 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Butt +3 melee (1d6+1)
Full Attack: Butt +3 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ferocity
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha5
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Temperate mountains, hills, and plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6-30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-5 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

Combat
A ram charges its opponents, trying to butt with its horns.
Ferocity (Ex): A ram is such a tenacious combatant that it continues to fight without penalty even when disabled or dying. The retrofit is actually fairly comparable to my version. Isn't as dangerous offensively, but it has more staying power. Excluding the Feat swap I made, which would make a big difference.

I might use this for more smaller, domesticated forms of sheep, as these would make better livestock (hardy & less dangerous). Not that many games would revolve around a sheep herder, but its handy info to have.

CthulhuEatYou
2012-10-12, 03:39 PM
The retrofit is actually fairly comparable to my version. Isn't as dangerous offensively, but it has more staying power. Excluding the Feat swap I made, which would make a big difference.

I might use this for more smaller, domesticated forms of sheep, as these would make better livestock (hardy & less dangerous). Not that many games would revolve around a sheep herder, but its handy info to have.

A CR 2 domesticated sheep? Poor commoners xD

Debihuman
2012-10-12, 11:51 PM
The Tome of Horrors' Dire Ram should have the notation that Diehard feat is a bonus feat.

Also, the easiest way to get a Large Ram is to Advance it. Normally, creature's double their HD when they increase in size.

Debby

Adamantrue
2012-10-13, 10:13 AM
Diehard & Ferocity seems redundant to me. Boars don't list it that way.

Not all Monsters advance in size when gaining Hit Dice (the Boar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/boar.htm) again, for example), and I don't want to overlap with the Dire Ram stats. Besides, even bigger sheep don't get to "Large" size.

I'd figure that for anyone that wanted to replicate the WoW Battleram, they could apply the Warmount Template to the Dire Ram, for something a Medium creature could ride. For my needs, I want them towing Chariots.
A CR 2 domesticated sheep? Poor commoners xD A level 1 commoner could conceivably die by falling off a wagon (d6 damage), which would rarely happen to a PC. I'd also assume an experienced sheep herder wouldn't be 1st level, and there have been injuries or deaths in the real world.

Real question is how accurate do we want to be, and how far off the mark is this line of reasoning going?

Debihuman
2012-10-13, 12:09 PM
I didn't say that all creatures gain a size when they double their HD, I said that they usually do.

Since Deepbluediver asked about creating a Large Dire War Ram for his ogre-mage, I suggested that Advancing it as per the monster improvement rules would work. See here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm

Debby