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Flik9999
2012-10-26, 12:49 PM
I am developing a tier 1 fighter in 3.5. That I will be running a campaighn with. First off though a few changes.

BAB: You use your full bonus on all attacks. (A level 6 fighter will get 2 attacks at +6 instead of +6/+1)
Two handed weapons: Add double your strength bonus to damage.
TWF: Add 100% your strenght bonus to off hand weapons.
Classes with martial weapon proficiency instead get 3 martial or exotic weapon proficiencies.
Skills: 4+int

Now for the fighter stuff.

Two weapon fighting: You make an extra attack for each attack you get from BAB. Need light weapon to get the -2/-2 penalty.

Improved 2 weapon fighting: You can use one handed weapons as if they were light.

greater 2 weapon fighting: No penalty from two weapon fighting

Weapon focus and specialization: Replaced with Weapon spec.
Greater Focus and specialization: Replaced with greater weapon spec.

Weapon spec
Requirment: Level 2 fighter
+2 to damage and hit.

Greater Weapon spec
Requirment: Level 5 fighter, weapon spec
+4 to damage and hit. Also get one additional attack.

Weapon mastery
Requirment: Level 10 fighter, greater weapon spec
+6 to damage and hit. Doubles critical threat (Which DOES stack with improved critical.)

High weapon mastery
Requirment level 15 fighter, Mastery.
+8 to damage and hit, weapon ignores DR. Cannot be disarmed.

Grand weapon mastery
Requirment: Level 20 fighter, high mastery
+10 to damage and hit, get 2 additional attacks with weapon. Critical threats are confirmed.


I am actually serious will this make fighters tier 1?

Edit** Oh yeah other full BAB class can take the fighter specific feats if they are 5 levels higher.(Eg a level 7 barbarian can take weapon spec and move onto greater spec at level 10)

lunar2
2012-10-26, 01:04 PM
it would probably get them to T4, since they're high T5 already. good at 1 thing, but has difficulty contributing when that one thing isn't needed. they are good at dealing damage with weapons, but that's about it. they aren't even really good at that, since they still have no means of getting past miss chances, or dealing with creatures outside of melee range (or the reverse for archers, they can't deal with opponents in melee range). the fighter doesn't need higher to hit and damage numbers, he's already good at that. he needs better defenses, ability to mitigate miss chances, more mobility or enough feats to be good at both melee and ranged combat, and something to do outside of combat. give him all that, and he'll be t4 or t3. T1 is beyond the ability of any fighter style character. T1 characters can create their own demiplanes, summon/call/create armies, alter the fabric of reality, and a few other things, all in the same day. the next day, they can do the whole thing over again, or a double handful of other gamebreaking things.

Garryl
2012-10-26, 01:08 PM
Kinda missing the point. Pure numerical/damage bonuses will never raise a class above Tier 3/4 (Tier 3 only if the class already had options and alternatives but was just numerically lackluster before). To be Tier 1, a class has to not only break the game, but do so in numerous ways, to turn the game world into something under your control, not the DM's. Killing things better, no matter how much better, just won't do that. It's like the difference between controlling a nuclear arsenal and controlling the economy, industry, and governments of the world.

Realms of Chaos
2012-10-26, 01:11 PM
I'm sorry to say that all of your changes does not make for a tier 1 class. Literally no amount of making it better at fighting will make the fighter a tier 1 Technically, you could give the fighter a special ability to automatically kill anything it comes across (no saves or defenses) and it still wouldn't be tier 1 (broken as hell, maybe. Tier 1, no).

Tier 1 comes from incredible versatility. The wizard can outfight the fighter (even this one) if it wishes in single combat using the correct buffs. The wizard can also choose to blast large groups (if not optimized) or deliver crowd control that will decimate the allies anyways (solid fog, black tentacles, etc). The wizard can outright take control of his or her foes or create armies of minions to engage enemies with. The wizard can destroy entire economies, teleport away from any encounter, create entire demiplanes, and literally do whatever the character wants to do.

For this reason, tier 1 fighter has always been a bit of an oxymoron on these boards. On the bright side, however, it is generally accepted (at least around here) that aiming for tier one isn't something that's generally desirable.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-26, 01:23 PM
Agreed. Tier 1 isn't just about numbers-- the tier system as much-- maybe even more-- about versatility than power. The tier 1 classes are the guys that get access to every spell on their lists. Every broken spell, every broken combo, every exploit-- these guys are capable of all of them. A T1 fighter basically needs access to an enormous list of abilities, one with comparable breath and power to spells.

Your changes are helpful, and might get the fighter into T4, but offer nowhere near the versatility needed to hit the "optimal" T3, much less the combination of breadth and depth of a T1 caster.

Flik9999
2012-10-26, 01:44 PM
Ah I missed something out. Wizards/clerics/druids no longer get spells as they level up. Instead they have to hunt down a rare scroll to learn it. Yes that means that you could end up learning fireball at level 10.

Edit: How come in like final fantasy and games like that classes are balanced then?

NichG
2012-10-26, 01:47 PM
Although arguably, a fighter that had the power to kill anything, even things that could not normally be killed or even targetted, would easily be Tier 1.

'The kingdom is at war? I kill Violence.' 'The undead are rising across the world? I kill Death - lets see how they like having no new recruits!'. 'You're injured? Let me kill that wound for you.'

Flik9999
2012-10-26, 01:49 PM
A simple DM trick you can do to balance classes is make some monsters completely immune to magic. Or have dungeons that have constant "anti-magic" fields around it. Surely in that situation a mage would be t6 and a fighter t1?

What I was thinking of doing is making mages "Super specialised" as in only having access to one type of spells. Such as an illusionist or an "Evocanist"

Same with other spellcasters.

Yitzi
2012-10-26, 02:44 PM
I am developing a tier 1 fighter in 3.5.

Any tier 1 fighter is no longer worthy of the name "fighter". The closest you get is Exalted, but even they are only tier 1 due to not really being fighters.

Your changes should make for a strong tier 4 (i.e. equivalent to tier 3 even though he's not technically a tier 3.) Although even then he probably should get boosts for if he wants to be an archer or a defensively oriented character as well.

If for each other aspect of D&D you made a class that's as good at that aspect as this is at combat, and you then made a class that can switch between all those different classes during an adventure, that last class would be a tier 1.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-10-26, 03:04 PM
Ah I missed something out. Wizards/clerics/druids no longer get spells as they level up. Instead they have to hunt down a rare scroll to learn it. Yes that means that you could end up learning fireball at level 10.

That probably wouldn't change the tiers, strictly speaking, since I'm pretty sure they're more about potential power. It does make it much harder for casters to reach their potential in play, depending on how hard it is to find the scrolls. This could be a reasonable rule (if the DM uses it more to add control to what a caster can actually get, rather than letting them cherry pick the best spells at the local magic-mart). Or, it could be a stealth ban on casters (if the DM uses it to keep casters unable to make level-appropriate contributions).


Edit: How come in like final fantasy and games like that classes are balanced then?

Short version, the spells. A high level fighter in Final Fantasy hits for 9999 damage. A high level mage in Final Fantasy casts Ultima for...9999 damage.

Long version, how mages and fighters compare in video games (and any role playing game, really) will vary based on the underlying game mechanics; sometimes fighters will be better, sometimes mages, sometimes they'll be relatively balanced. It all comes down to what spells the mages have, what supplemental abilities the fighters have, and how the basic rules of the game apply to each. That said, in most video games, fighter or mage, combat is really your only measure of power. Utility options in video games don't come anywhere close to what is possible in D&D.

There is no real reason mages have to be better than fighters, that's just what the mechanics of D&D resulted in.


A simple DM trick you can do to balance classes is make some monsters completely immune to magic. Or have dungeons that have constant "anti-magic" fields around it. Surely in that situation a mage would be t6 and a fighter t1?

Ugh. I despise the notion of "Balance Through Occasional Complete Uselessness". It creates more imbalance overall, since it allows for characters to swing from massively overpowered to massively underpowered depending on the situation, putting the DM in the position where it has to either completely cripple the character or deal with a game-breaker. It's particularly heavy-handed when intentionally implemented as a DM tactic.

In any event, though, that wouldn't make fighters tier 1. Fighters would be sitting exactly where they are. There are plenty of non-magical classes higher in rank than a fighter, and even with mages rendered nigh-useless, fighters wouldn't shoot past them. At best, you'd now have Warblades as Tier 1 and Fighters as Tier 3, with mages and commoners now Tier 4. Probably a more reasonable interpretation is that the tiers remain as they are, but within those dungeons, there simply are no Tier 1-2s.

Or, of course, it might not do anything, as there are wizard builds and tactics out there that can get around antimagic (which does go to show just how overpowered wizards truly can be, when they have ways of beating even the one thing that's supposed to straight block their powers). Likewise, anti-magic dungeons generally also kill all magic items, which fighters need, particularly for defense.


What I was thinking of doing is making mages "Super specialised" as in only having access to one type of spells. Such as an illusionist or an "Evocanist"

Same with other spellcasters.

Although still having nothing to do with the fighter's tier, this is a fairly well-proven method for more balanced casters. The Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer classes are all solid examples of how this can work.

ThiagoMartell
2012-10-26, 03:08 PM
{Scrubbed}

lunar2
2012-10-26, 03:10 PM
Ah I missed something out. Wizards/clerics/druids no longer get spells as they level up. Instead they have to hunt down a rare scroll to learn it. Yes that means that you could end up learning fireball at level 10.

Edit: How come in like final fantasy and games like that classes are balanced then?

making the magic users weaker doesn't make the fighter stronger. the fighter is still only T4, but now the casters are T3 or lower, as well.

@final fantasy. because they don't use the D20 system. their mages can't alter reality on a whim. that, and it's easier to balance for a computer game, because you know ahead of time what the players can try to do.


A simple DM trick you can do to balance classes is make some monsters completely immune to magic. Or have dungeons that have constant "anti-magic" fields around it. Surely in that situation a mage would be t6 and a fighter t1?

What I was thinking of doing is making mages "Super specialised" as in only having access to one type of spells. Such as an illusionist or an "Evocanist"

Same with other spellcasters.

golems are immune to magic. wizards just summon something to fight for them. or they drop a forcecage on it, and walk away, or they use any of a hundred other methods for dealing with magic immune creatures, such as spells that don't allow spell resistance.

@antimagic field. some spells function in antimagic fields just fine. also, the fighter gets weaker in antimagic fields, too, because his gear gets turned off. an antimagic dungeon just makes the whole party weak, or anyone who depends on magic (nearly everyone, in some form or another) will simply not go inside.

Flik9999
2012-10-26, 03:13 PM
Thanks for reply Quellian-dyrae. As a DM has complete power anyway. If just make something up if I wanted to have a magic dead area.( for say a plot area where magic doesn't work so party has to split up and casters have to go to location A and Martial to Location B cos location A has them immune to physical damage.)If someone brought a mage with thier "Immune to magic dead". Id just hit em with something that drains all your spells you memorised.

Think Ill go with the single or maybe 2 schools when I run this campaighn and see how it works out with the new fighter. Comparing the buffs I hope this should bring it up to tier 3. And the single school will bring casters down to tier 3 so it should work out balanced.

I just remember second edition being balanced.

ArkenBrony
2012-10-26, 03:16 PM
Or, of course, it might not do anything, as there are wizard builds and tactics out there that can get around antimagic (which does go to show just how overpowered wizards truly can be, when they have ways of beating even the one thing that's supposed to straight block their powers). Likewise, anti-magic dungeons generally also kill all magic items, which fighters need, particularly for defense.

i would like to know how to get passed anti-magic, cause i can't see a way

Eldariel
2012-10-26, 03:44 PM
Edit: How come in like final fantasy and games like that classes are balanced then?

This really comes down to those games being inherently railroaded. There's no power beyond magic winning fights. You can't even cast spells outside fights most of the time and even if you can, they don't do ****. You also lack spells that do useful stuff, outside few examples.

And magic generally does still come out on top since there are few abusable spells that don't do mere damage (see Final Fantasy 6 Quick or Chrono Trigger Lifeline for instance). But yeah, basically, there's no story power for the player in these games. It doesn't matter where you can travel; you travel where the railroads take you. You can fly? Doesn't matter, you can't fly forward in the plot. You can scry? Doesn't matter, you can't scry anything useful that's not determined by the plot. And so on and so forth.


These kinds of games are examples of the worst kind of tabletopping and indeed, the reason pen'n'paper is inherently the superior format; because players do have agency - the ability to affect things and make their own moves. In an FF-style video game you're just watching a movie and fighting the fights and making few scripted decisions; in tabletop you're making all the decisions and the plans and picking how you solve every problem (not that there's anything wrong with that but that's not what pen'n'paper is about; of course some PC games offer more options too but they're still fundamentally restricted by their programming while pen'n'paper is inherently open since DM can make anything possible).

In such a format, the ability to do a wide variety of things is really the source of all power. And spells inherently have more of that power; mundanes need to have high ranks in all skills, a variety of combat options and defenses to even come close. Tier 1-2 is inherently out-of-limits for everything except truly ludicrous power (the point where a mundane can solve a problem by cutting the whole Evil Country in two and then running to space and throwing stars at people which convinces everyone to become their fanatic followers, that's when they begin to reach Tier 2 level power).


I just remember second edition being balanced.

Second edition balance isn't really about Tiers. Spellcasters still have much more power there. It's just harder to bring that power to bear, particularly in combat. Casters start with far fewer spells, level slower, spells have dangerous side-effects and they can never fight as well as warriors (because warriors have unique access to extra attacks and highest levels of weapon specialization and such). And spells are automatically disrupted with one hit, which basically forces casters to need bodyguards early on.

You could bring similar balance to 3rd edition, if you want to.


First step would be to remove the 5' step and defensive casting mechanics as both make spellcasters way too safe; casting simply doesn't have much risk when you can do so without even provoking AoOs very easily. Tumble also needs to be more difficult, somehow related to the threatening creature's skill (e.g. their BAB is a good basis).

Second would be raising casting times; making all spells (maybe leave some less powerful spells like Magic Missile and Cure Light Wounds as exceptions) take minimum of 1 round to cast (and bumping 1 round casting times to ~2) would make spells much more necessary to have somebody protect the spellcaster.

Third, make warriors more mobile. As it stands they have to stand still to full attack (to truly do the damage they need to be doing); melee full attack needs to be performable as a standard action (it's okay for ranged attacks to require full attack action tho).

Fourth, warriors need to be able to ready the action to block somebody's movement or overall, be a bodyblock. As it stands, it's way too easy to walk around warriors. If it were possible to use their move action to "block first person to cross X" or "stay in front of this enemy", it'd be much harder to just ignore them.

Fifth, you could of course make some spells more dangerous to cast. That's a lot of work tho but e.g. old AD&D spellcasters could age horribly by casting Haste, Polymorph disoriented you and Shapechange cost 1500gp per casting and could be ended by breaking the circlet. Whatever you do, remove the "Charisma-check to gain service of the creature"-line from Planar Binding and force Wizards to use social skills instead. That makes life a lot better. Also remove the "short-term service"-line from Gate. And make summoned/called creatures unable to use spells with XP/gold components. That kinds of things keep most of Wizards' abilities but remove some of the easiest gamebreaking options.

Sixth, you could use Tome of Battle classes (Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader) instead of or in addition to the PHB classes. They get a lot more different options which allows them to have more agency than warriors inherently; they're much better on account of versatility while their numbers are similar to normal PHB classes.

More skill points and/or condensed skill list is also a good option; mundanes do with skills what casters do with spells and thus they need good skill access to retain out of combat relevance. Pathfinder's skill system (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills) is a pretty good bandaid fix; it makes all skill ranks (cross-class or class) cost 1 skillpoint per rank, it removes many superfluous skills and it fixes some of the dysfunctional skills (Tumble [rolled into Acrobatics] & Diplomacy for instance) or at least addresses some problems with them.


All this wouldn't make Warriors tier 1 or Wizards tier 3 but it would even out combat encounters a bit and make Wizards a bit more reliant on protectors. In other words, it would make Warriors more valuable and useful members in adventuring parties.

I must warn you against balancing with excessive Dead Magic; just 'cause spellcasters are stronger doesn't mean it's fun to play a Commoner excessive amounts of time. Dead Magic can exist of course, but don't make it too common or necessary for the PCs to face. A session or two of Dead Magic can be interesting but if you can't cast a single spell for half the campaign, it can really get old (and the party can end up exceptionally dead 'cause half of them can only shoot Crossbows).

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-26, 04:08 PM
Second would be raising casting times; making all spells (maybe leave some less powerful spells like Magic Missile and Cure Light Wounds as exceptions) take minimum of 1 round to cast (and bumping 1 round casting times to ~2) would make spells much more necessary to have somebody protect the spellcaster.
This is a bad idea, honestly. While balance is a thing, I've played games where it takes two+ rounds to use magic, and it's really not fun to waste half your actions. And when it comes right down to it, we're playing a game to have fun. The fun is more important than the game.

(Now, before anyone yells at me, yes, a game where everyone is in the same ballpark power-wise is important, and magic can be too strong when you have well-played T1s in a group with poorly-build T4s and T5s, but a little restraint by the mages goes a long way to balance, say, T2 and T3.)


Fifth, you could of course make some spells more dangerous to cast. That's a lot of work tho but e.g. old AD&D spellcasters could age horribly by casting Haste, Polymorph disoriented you and Shapechange cost 1500gp per casting and could be ended by breaking the circlet. Whatever you do, remove the "Charisma-check to gain service of the creature"-line from Planar Binding and force Wizards to use social skills instead. That makes life a lot better. Also remove the "short-term service"-line from Gate. And make summoned/called creatures unable to use spells with XP/gold components. That kinds of things keep most of Wizards' abilities but remove some of the easiest gamebreaking options.
Can't go too far on the "dangerous to cast" bit, though, otherwise we get back into "no fun because I can't use my class features" territory.


I must warn you against balancing with excessive Dead Magic; just 'cause spellcasters are stronger doesn't mean it's fun to play a Commoner excessive amounts of time. Dead Magic can exist of course, but don't make it too common or necessary for the PCs to face. A session or two of Dead Magic can be interesting but if you can't cast a single spell for half the campaign, it can really get old (and the party can end up exceptionally dead 'cause half of them can only shoot Crossbows).
Yep. Fun is your keyword here. When proposing nerfs, imagine yourself as a player in the game. Would you be frustrated? If so, don't do it.

Studoku
2012-10-26, 04:19 PM
i would like to know how to get passed anti-magic, cause i can't see a way

There are a few ways of dealing with anti-magic.

The orb line of spells is one of the easy ones. Due to the way they work (summoning non-magical stuff), they can be fired into an amf and destroy whatever's producing it. This works with any instantaneous conjuration.

The other is the (slightly silly) lead hat trick for dealing with unexpected amf. The wizard creates (through fabricate, summoned creatures or money) a giant lead hat- large enough to hide inside. They cast shrink item on it and wear it. Upon entering an amf, the shrink item spell is suppressed and the hat regains its full size, surrounding the wizard. Since amf is a emanation, it is blocked by the hat- the area inside the hat now allows magic. The wizard casts teleport.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-10-26, 05:48 PM
i would like to know how to get passed anti-magic, cause i can't see a way


There are a few ways of dealing with anti-magic.

The orb line of spells is one of the easy ones. Due to the way they work (summoning non-magical stuff), they can be fired into an amf and destroy whatever's producing it. This works with any instantaneous conjuration.

The other is the (slightly silly) lead hat trick for dealing with unexpected amf. The wizard creates (through fabricate, summoned creatures or money) a giant lead hat- large enough to hide inside. They cast shrink item on it and wear it. Upon entering an amf, the shrink item spell is suppressed and the hat regains its full size, surrounding the wizard. Since amf is a emanation, it is blocked by the hat- the area inside the hat now allows magic. The wizard casts teleport.

In addition, I'm pretty sure there are at least a few options that explicitly let you can spells/a spell in antimagic or dead magic, although I'm not 100% sure of the mechanics myself. Dweomerkeeper is one, and I think there's a spell called Invoke Magic as well. As I understand it, they're high-level and at least somewhat obscure, but they exist, and players would probably be more likely to try and acquire them if they know that they're likely to encounter dead-magic dungeons at all routinely.

Flik9999
2012-10-26, 07:03 PM
What I might try is reintroducing that "You cast a spell and get hit and its gone" mechanic. By making everyone decide there actions before thier turn at start of round (which could scum em if they dont talk and just decide such as warrios are gonna charge and mage is gonna fireball.) Then if a caster is hit they lose the spell. For now though I think the mages are super specialised will do the trick. As it makes them like T3 if they are no longer a wizard but say an "Illusionist" or an "Evocanist" should make them the same as "The guy who bashes enemies til it dies." Very specialist roles. Btw on a combat style of things do you think iv made the fighter overpowered? By effectively making him tier 0.5 in combat (I mean he can do 3X the damage of the standard fighter at level 10)

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-26, 07:13 PM
Buddy, you ain't even lifted him above T4. Tiers are not about raw numbers. Yes, you can spend most of your feats and make a lot of attacks and deal +30 damage on each at 20th level. (Assuming the bonuses from the feats stack.) Maybe even +50, if you power attack for full. Great! You can probably shred anything you can get in range of. You still can't touch fliers without magic. Can't touch invisibles without magic. Can't touch incorporeals without magic. Can't fight touch attacks, saves, battlefield control. Heck, you don't even have the skills on your class list to be semi-useful outside of a fight.

The Tome of Battle classes are great examples of T3 mundanes (well, mundanes and the Swordsage). Look to them for inspiration, not a calculator.

Flik9999
2012-10-26, 07:17 PM
You have enough feats to get bow as well. Also was thinking of making bows get 2 attacks at no attack penalty. Removing the protection from arrows spell as well.

Edit: By overpowered I meant in a combat situation where the fighter can hit the enemy and deal his full damage by means of magical weapons or the feat which makes you ignore all damage reduction and can hit the target.

RFLS
2012-10-26, 07:17 PM
I am actually serious will this make fighters tier 1?

No. It won't. You need to go read the tier list. You also need to cease and desist with the stuffy doll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256950) stuff. You wanted to know if your changes would shift it to tier 1; they would not. Nerfing tier 1 casters doesn't change that; it just reduces the number of people currently in tier 1.

Flik9999
2012-10-26, 07:22 PM
No. It won't. You need to go read the tier list. You also need to cease and desist with the stuffy doll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256950) stuff. You wanted to know if your changes would shift it to tier 1; they would not. Nerfing tier 1 casters doesn't change that; it just reduces the number of people currently in tier 1.

By relative tiers it could. Like say there we no t1s the t2s would be the new t1s. Its not about "potential power" its about "real power". Like if there were no t1s, t2s or t3s the t4s would be the t1s, the t5s would be the t2s and the t6 would be the t3s.

Daedroth
2012-10-26, 07:52 PM
You could do some Buffed Gestalt with Rogue and Marshall.

1- Gestalt
2- Make Evasion work with heavy armor
3- Give him Leadership

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-26, 07:55 PM
By relative tiers it could. Like say there we no t1s the t2s would be the new t1s. Its not about "potential power" its about "real power". Like if there were no t1s, t2s or t3s the t4s would be the t1s, the t5s would be the t2s and the t6 would be the t3s.

Neeeyyyeeehhh... not really. The tiers (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=gkngul818jpqa8191rekh37oo4&topic=5070.0)aren't strictly a measure of class-vs-class power. As we've been saying, they have a lot to do with options and variety. You are, of course, free to define relative power via tiers, but that's not the generally accepted terminology.

FYI: the tier descriptions:


Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Flik9999
2012-10-26, 08:27 PM
So looking at the tier chart this guy is T4 (as apposed to t5 which he was before as a cleric was a better fighter). As in he can smash anything if he gets in range or can switch to his bow. Would giving him a lot of skill points (was thinking of increasing fighter to 6+int as he will naturally have low int, this should compensate for it.)

brujon
2012-10-26, 08:52 PM
I am developing a tier 1 fighter in 3.5. That I will be running a campaighn with. First off though a few changes.

BAB: You use your full bonus on all attacks. (A level 6 fighter will get 2 attacks at +6 instead of +6/+1)
Two handed weapons: Add double your strength bonus to damage.
TWF: Add 100% your strenght bonus to off hand weapons.
Classes with martial weapon proficiency instead get 3 martial or exotic weapon proficiencies.
Skills: 4+int

Now for the fighter stuff.

Two weapon fighting: You make an extra attack for each attack you get from BAB. Need light weapon to get the -2/-2 penalty.

Improved 2 weapon fighting: You can use one handed weapons as if they were light.

greater 2 weapon fighting: No penalty from two weapon fighting

Weapon focus and specialization: Replaced with Weapon spec.
Greater Focus and specialization: Replaced with greater weapon spec.

Weapon spec
Requirment: Level 2 fighter
+2 to damage and hit.

Greater Weapon spec
Requirment: Level 5 fighter, weapon spec
+4 to damage and hit. Also get one additional attack.

Weapon mastery
Requirment: Level 10 fighter, greater weapon spec
+6 to damage and hit. Doubles critical threat (Which DOES stack with improved critical.)

High weapon mastery
Requirment level 15 fighter, Mastery.
+8 to damage and hit, weapon ignores DR. Cannot be disarmed.

Grand weapon mastery
Requirment: Level 20 fighter, high mastery
+10 to damage and hit, get 2 additional attacks with weapon. Critical threats are confirmed.


I am actually serious will this make fighters tier 1?

Edit** Oh yeah other full BAB class can take the fighter specific feats if they are 5 levels higher.(Eg a level 7 barbarian can take weapon spec and move onto greater spec at level 10)


Still no way the fighter can fly without magic items. Still no way the fighter can naturally counter invisible foes/incorporeal without use of magic items. Still no way to immobilize large groups with one action. Still no way to actually have defenses up against stuff that instantly kills you, or devoids you of actions (Save or Dies & Save or Loses). Lack of ability to travel from one plane to another without use of magical items. Lack of ability to emulate other classes abilities (Main schtick for T1 characters).

What this basically does, is turn the fighter into a wonderful dip class, even more so than it already is, because you eliminate the penalties on multiple attacks, and basically get Greater Two Weapon Fighting for free from lvl 1.

Any attempt to turn the Fighter into a T1 class is bound to fail, simply because the only way to do so, is to give them access to something that is on par with spellcasting, which basically amounts to giving them spellcasting and just calling it something else. Plus, T1 classes are broken, they're not meant to be used to their full potential, otherwise the game will become broken, and the same is true for T2 classes, only less so. The actual sweet spot you should be aiming at is T3, and Tome of Battle gives a good enough example to follow.

You want to boost the fighter? Intersperse it's bonus feat with abilities that lets them do stuff that are more than just hitting things until they're dead. Locking down the battlefield, shutting down flying opponents, ways of dealing with invisible and incorporeal foes, ways to shrug off save or dies/loses, SCALING abilities that encourage you to keep the class for more than just a couple of levels, and focus not on just the damage. Make them more able to soak up damage, distract or disrupt opponents, and otherwise make them viable enough targets so that they redirect the opponents attention towards themselves.

With your current set-up, the fighter is no more useful than a properly built ubercharger, which is easily shut down by creating situations that he can't charge through. Put this fighter of yours levitating, and suddenly, he can't do anything, same as a regular one.

Just my 2cp.

toapat
2012-10-26, 09:35 PM
T3, and Tome of Battle gives a good enough example to follow.

Tome of Battle is not T3. the T3 estimate is overvaluing a system that lets you beat face really effectively all day. thing is, barring a tiny number of maneuvers that only at base the swordsage gets, the set doesnt make you better outside of combat.


The reason why you cant fix the fighter and keep it a fighter:

The fighter doesnt have anything other then beating face, its his entire life story. he has nothing outside of combat for him at atll

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-26, 09:47 PM
The reason why you cant fix the fighter and keep it a fighter:

The fighter doesnt have anything other then beating face, its his entire life story. he has nothing outside of combat for him at atll

You have to stake out some ground to distinguish the capital-F Fighter from other fighter-classes, yes. In my own (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12460617&postcount=2)fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13847478#post13847478), I've tried to make them intelligent warriors and, sometimes, leaders-- the guy who knows how to kill whatever it is you're fighting, how to use the terrain to his advantage, and so on. Feat retraining, combat maneuvers, Int-focuses and better class skills all help.

toapat
2012-10-26, 09:55 PM
You have to stake out some ground to distinguish the capital-F Fighter from other fighter-classes, yes. In my own (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12460617&postcount=2)fixes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13847478#post13847478), I've tried to make them intelligent warriors and, sometimes, leaders-- the guy who knows how to kill whatever it is you're fighting, how to use the terrain to his advantage, and so on. Feat retraining, combat maneuvers, Int-focuses and better class skills all help.

I think this is a good point to call out the worst aspect of having so many base and prestiege classes in 3.5:

Because there are so many classes, each base class must fight for their archetypes. paladins for instance, share the spotlight with at least 3 other classes, of which the Psionic and Incarnum classes are not spoken of, while Crusader is considered better (and is within their material)

Eldariel
2012-10-26, 10:03 PM
This is a bad idea, honestly. While balance is a thing, I've played games where it takes two+ rounds to use magic, and it's really not fun to waste half your actions. And when it comes right down to it, we're playing a game to have fun. The fun is more important than the game.

(Now, before anyone yells at me, yes, a game where everyone is in the same ballpark power-wise is important, and magic can be too strong when you have well-played T1s in a group with poorly-build T4s and T5s, but a little restraint by the mages goes a long way to balance, say, T2 and T3.)


This is a bad idea, honestly. While balance is a thing, I've played games where it takes two+ rounds to use magic, and it's really not fun to waste half your actions. And when it comes right down to it, we're playing a game to have fun. The fun is more important than the game.

Might be a problem with your expectations and experiences with the system beforehand rather than the rules themselves. 1 round cast times work fine and 2 round would be very rare (there's only a handful of 1 round casting time spells currently, most importantly just Enlarge Person, Sleep and Summon Monsters, and there's way around all that) so it'd be personal choice when using those spells.

As long as I'm casting spells, I can have fun as a Wizard. If a spell takes longer to cast, I expect more impressive results but if I get that, I'm more than okay with that. If a spell goes wrong and that's a part of the system, that's a choice I made when I selected a Wizard and it's both, understandable and enhances the experience by adding a thrill to the act of casting a spell so I wouldn't consider it an automatically negative thing either.


Can't go too far on the "dangerous to cast" bit, though, otherwise we get back into "no fun because I can't use my class features" territory.

Yep. Fun is your keyword here. When proposing nerfs, imagine yourself as a player in the game. Would you be frustrated? If so, don't do it.

It's perfectly fine for players to be faced with adversity though. It's more satisfying to overcome obstacles when you feel you've accomplished something and the obstacle was actually relevant. It's also awesome to kill someone with Haste aging for instance so that particular gimmick was pretty awesome, and Polymorph is far more fair if you don't work on full efficiency automatically.

It's not inherently bad to restrict options or make life harder for the players. A wide demographic (pretty much all the OD&D players for instance) play games for the sake of experiencing the high of overcoming hard odds and earning their happy ending.

A Dead Magic Zone with a relic you need? An adventure the party needs to prepare for in an entirely different way. Maybe the Wizard pours much of his power into creating a Golem that can act in there for the duration, for instance, or Binding a powerful Outsider. It can act as a different dungeon with different rules forcing players out of their comfort zone enabling them to try and experience new things and again giving them a high of succeeding against the odds should they come out on top. It just needs to be a change, not the default.


Tome of Battle is not T3. the T3 estimate is overvaluing a system that lets you beat face really effectively all day. thing is, barring a tiny number of maneuvers that only at base the swordsage gets, the set doesnt make you better outside of combat.

I recall Same Game Test puts them at 3; the few useful out-of-combat maneuvers do improve them quite a bit and they have inherently a decent bundle of skill points and good lists compared to Fighters. Also, they're more versatile in combat; they're capable of dealing with a wider variety of combat threats than a Fighter who can charge for 20k damage, which really helps them.

Maneuvers grant them mobility, ability to shrug off various ailments, ability to locate hard-to-locate opponents and ability to enhance allies' capabilities when you yourself are unable to affect the opponent.


What I might try is reintroducing that "You cast a spell and get hit and its gone" mechanic. By making everyone decide there actions before thier turn at start of round (which could scum em if they dont talk and just decide such as warrios are gonna charge and mage is gonna fireball.) Then if a caster is hit they lose the spell.

That's the worst of the old rules; Concentration is a good compromise as sufficient damage still works, they just have a chance at counterplay. It increases interactivity, which is good for the game.

Now, being able to cast spells without the risk of AoOs or anything, that removes interactivity and is a problem (basically, it makes reaching a Wizard worthless in and of itself; you also need to kill them). Make it harder for Wizards to avoid the AoO rather than making the AoO itself guarantee spell loss if you want to change it.

If they get hit, the damage tends to be high enough that they're like to lose the spell anyways; Concentration gives them the striker's chance still and makes things more interesting.

toapat
2012-10-26, 10:22 PM
I recall Same Game Test puts them at 3; the few useful out-of-combat maneuvers do improve them quite a bit and they have inherently a decent bundle of skill points and good lists compared to Fighters. Also, they're more versatile in combat; they're capable of dealing with a wider variety of combat threats than a Fighter who can charge for 20k damage, which really helps them.

Maneuvers grant them mobility, ability to shrug off various ailments, ability to locate hard-to-locate opponents and ability to enhance allies' capabilities when you yourself are unable to affect the opponent.

if skills mattered for the tier system, then the rogue would be T3.

more options in combat =/= more flexible. the tier system in presentation is off, because it does not adhere to its own guidelines. following them, the only T3 (if that) of the base innitiators is Swordsage, as they have native access to the more flexible disciplines. the testing would be significantly off if it said that warblade/crusader is T3.

Eldariel
2012-10-26, 10:26 PM
if skills mattered for the tier system, then the rogue would be T3.

more options in combat =/= more flexible. the tier system in presentation is off, because it does not adhere to its own guidelines. following them, the only T3 (if that) of the base innitiators is Swordsage, as they have native access to the more flexible disciplines. the testing would be significantly off if it said that warblade/crusader is T3.

Uh, Rogue's tier 4 only 'cause Sneak Attack is so unreliable in combat. Of course skills matter, wtf. It's about the whole class.

Same Game Test is how the classes are tested; you have set of encounters for each level (generally 5, 10, 15, 20 or some such setup) and see how many a class can deal with. You can find them in the BG forums if you feel like reading up on it.

Kyuu Himura
2012-10-26, 10:37 PM
if skills mattered for the tier system, then the rogue would be T3.

Rogue is T4 because of combat capacity, no Sneak Attack nerfs them a lot, but their position in the tier system is because of that, not because skills don't matter.


the tier system in presentation is off, because it does not adhere to its own guidelines. following them, the only T3 (if that) of the base innitiators is Swordsage, as they have native access to the more flexible disciplines. the testing would be significantly off if it said that warblade/crusader is T3.

Out of combat healing (Devoted Spirit), ways of bypassing physical barriers (Stone Dragon), Additional Senses (Hearing the Air from Diamond Mind), Enhanced movement (Leaping Dragon Stance, Absolute Steel Stance, Quicksilver Motion, Sudden Leap), Ability to shrug off damage from traps ([Insert Hard Material] Bones).

These are abilities that either Warblade, Crusader, or both, get. Granted, Swordsage takes the cake with utility maneuvers, but that's not to say these other guys are smash-capable only.
As for the skills thing... they do get diplomacy, at the very least they can try to talk to people with something better than Sheer Dumb luck.

Are they as useful out of combat as the Swordsage?? No.

Are they useless out of combat?? No.

Can you disable them as easy as you can disable a Barbarian or Rogue when it does come to combat?? No.

That does sound like T3.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Back to tier 1 fighter:
Not gonna happen, wouldn't be good if it happened.


Back to Tier-hopefully-3 fighter:
One thing I would do is giving them the freaking perception skills as class skills and make an ability like the next one:

Adjust Attack (Ex): A Fighter is a cunning warrior with keen senses, as a Swift Action, when attacking an enemy that benefits from a Miss Chance, you may decrease said miss chance by 10% per 3 Class Levels, to a minimum of 10%, as the Fighter uses timing and trial-and-error to locate his/her enemy.
This class feature does not provide the fighter with the means to locate the creature he is facing.
A Fighter can benefit from Adjust Attack for one round. After that, he must use it again to gain it's benefits again.

toapat
2012-10-26, 10:47 PM
Uh, Rogue's tier 4 only 'cause Sneak Attack is so unreliable in combat. Of course skills matter, wtf. It's about the whole class.

Same Game Test is how the classes are tested; you have set of encounters for each level (generally 5, 10, 15, 20 or some such setup) and see how many a class can deal with. You can find them in the BG forums if you feel like reading up on it.

it 6, 12, and 16, and it is pretty obviously wrong.

also, no, read the actual tier posts, rogue is T4 because skills dont matter sneak attack being tempramental as hell doesnt help

Eldariel
2012-10-26, 11:02 PM
it 6, 12, and 16, and it is pretty obviously wrong.

Go make a new thread, extrapolate. This statement has no value without argumentation behind it.


also, no, read the actual tier posts, rogue is T4 because skills dont matter sneak attack being tempramental as hell doesnt help

...they're linked in my signature, just go read the damn posts instead of coming up with stuff off the top of your head.

Flik9999
2012-10-27, 11:16 AM
That fighter mod you did is pretty nice. I'm gonna use that but with the new weapon specialization I've created.

Warrior classes:
Skills: 6+int
Class skills:
Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Ride , Swim, diplomacy, knowledge (Pick one), Spot, listen, survival, tumble.
All receive the evasion feat at level 10

Also thinking of adding this feat in for all warriors.

Detect magic: The warrior hates magic and has learned to feel when magic is in the air. He gets a +4 to all saves from magical sources, He can also as a full round action attempt to break free of all magic (Will save Dc10+1/2 casters level + level of spell; he gets the +4 to this save.This is effectively dispel magic on himself.)

lunar2
2012-10-27, 01:00 PM
6+int skill points is kind of high. that's generally reserved for skillmonkeys. 4+ should be fine.

when i rebuilt the fighter, i did a few things.

1. improved many feats, and even created a few new ones. some of these were just bigger numbers, some of these were numbers in new areas, some of these were new abilities entirely.

2. gave the fighter a 1st level class feature:

Tradition (Ex): fighters are trained in the military tradition of their teachers. the fighter picks whether to have a good fortitude, reflex, or will save, and gets a bonus feat depending on his choice. Fort: toughness, Ref: dodge, Will: die hard.

note: each of those feats are significantly more powerful than their PHB counterparts.

3. gave the fighter these class skills: climb, craft, diplomacy, handle animal, intimidate, jump, knowledge (history), knowledge (nobility), listen, profession, ride, spot, swim. gave the fighter 4+int skill points per level.

4. gave the fighter a bonus feat at every level except 1st and multiples of 3. a straight fighter gets 20 feats, or up to 23 if they are a human with flaws.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-10-27, 01:13 PM
Kinda missing the point. Pure numerical/damage bonuses will never raise a class above Tier 3/4 (Tier 3 only if the class already had options and alternatives but was just numerically lackluster before). To be Tier 1, a class has to not only break the game, but do so in numerous ways, to turn the game world into something under your control, not the DM's. Killing things better, no matter how much better, just won't do that. It's like the difference between controlling a nuclear arsenal and controlling the economy, industry, and governments of the world.

This. Making them better at hitting things doesn't solve the "tier 1" problem.

The only way for a fighter to be tier 1 is to give them a massive and varied list of combat maneuver abilities, starting at stuns and paralysis, and working your way up to actual teleportation, save-or-dies, and being able to buff yourself into becoming a 30-foot-tall killing machine around level 15. The result will be barely recognizeable as a classic D&D man-at-arms, and more similar to a shonen action hero from something like Naruto or One Piece.

...not that that's a bad thing.

I would do it by giving the fighter a per-encounter pool of combat dice, similar to the 5e D&D fighter. The dice could normally be spent to improve d20 or damage rolls, but at higher levels they could be spent on an expanding list of supernatural abilities that would keep the fighter on the same playing field as the wizard and cleric. It'll be tier 1 as long as the fighter can reset his choice of supernatural abilities every time he rests, otherwise it'll be tier 2. To avoid weirdness like the armored two-handed fighter doing flash steps every round, I'd give each supernatural ability both a level prerequisite and an ability prerequisite (Strength for area and elemental effects, Dexterity for movement and illusion effects, Constitution for self-buffs).


Think Ill go with the single or maybe 2 schools when I run this campaighn and see how it works out with the new fighter. Comparing the buffs I hope this should bring it up to tier 3. And the single school will bring casters down to tier 3 so it should work out balanced.

This is not a bad idea. I've toyed with a similar idea, making normal wizards limited to two spell schools and specialist wizards limited to one. In Pathfinder this is a very sane option because specialists can still prepare restricted spells by using two spell slots. You could do something similar for clerics, making them require two spell slots to prepare anything that's not on their domain list (you might want to throw out their domain spell slots and let them spontaneously convert spells into one of their domains).

Not sure how to nerf druids, perhaps you could force them to pick a focus (healing, summoning, animals/plants, earth/fire elements, air/water elements) and restrict everything outside that focus (and change their spontaneous casting to reflect that). Sorcerers and bards don't need any nerfing, they're already self-limiting because of their spells known. Ranger and paladin spellcasting is so token that it doesn't need any nerfing either.


I just remember second edition being balanced.

Up until 7th level, yes. 3.5 D&D is the same way, it's mostly balanced up to 7th level, and then casters take the lead.

Deepbluediver
2012-10-27, 01:48 PM
I doubt there's anything else that I can add to what has already been said with regards to this particular fix, but I think we should petition the forum mods to make a "Tier System" sticky so that posters have something on this site to describe it to them. It gets mentioned an awful lot, and I get the impression that a fair number of people don't really understand anything about it beyond "tier 1 is the bestest and most powerful!"

Felyndiira
2012-10-27, 01:56 PM
also, no, read the actual tier posts, rogue is T4 because skills dont matter sneak attack being tempramental as hell doesnt help

Just want to summarize a few things out:


Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Beguiler: Has a limited abilities list with very few methods of generating direct damage. Plays the parts of a skill monkey, social monkey, and battlefield controller very well with their spell lists, and can use their abilities for other things. A solid tier 3 class.
Warblade: Capable of doing one thing extremely well, and that is dealing damage; warblade maneuvers allow them to deal damage in a variety of different ways, including AoE, leap, fixed damage, concentration damage, counters, and others. Warblades can target a lot of weaknesses; in addition to HP, he can also deal damage to constitution, weapons, target various saves, and even stun with no save at level 15. Warblade has a considerable number of other utilities that it can also tap into; a lot of people forget that the five martial schools it gets also includes gems like movement, replacing saves, replacing touch AC with an attack, battlefield control, scent, status removal, action economy breaking, repositioning of allies and enemies, breaking walls and fortresses, rerolling saves, and other utilities. Outside of combat, warblades gain a respectable skill list including diplomancy and 4+skill level skill points, allowing for him to specialize in other areas as well. In short, one that evaluates the warblade must evaluate the full versatility given by his skills rather than looking at it and going "oh, damage"; all else considered, warblade is a solid, high level 3.
Crusaders are defensive fighters that makes good use of combat healing. They can keep allies alive very well and are excellent at tanking; white raven tactics grants them repositioning maneuvers, White Raven Tactics, and no-save stuns. Devoted spirit gives them hit-and-heal, the ability to basically say no to dying, stop rolling dices for anything that they want, and turn themselves into a wall that makes you eat chain AoOs no matter what method you choose to get past them. They also have 4+Int skills a level.


A good way to look at it is this:

A rogue can conditionally deal extra damage with flanking or surprise, and uses dex to avoid your damage.
A warblade can deal with you in whatever combat-related way he feels like it.

A rogue must rely on skills and saves to get through magic spells. He might rely on slippery mind to reroll will once per spell.
A warblade looks at that wall of force that you just created, screams FUS RO DAH really loudly, and the wall goes away. Then, he deflects that level-draining touch ray and uses his concentration to will save at +20, no fumble, against that dominate person thingy. Then he swings at something and all of his maneuvers come back.

A rogue can use open lock to lockpick an iron door, or else rely on UMD.
A warblade smashes right through the door with mountain hammer.

A rogue can use martial study to gain the level 2 dimension door from setting sun, and use it once per encounter to try to get some distance away.
A warblade can use martial study to gain the same ability. He uses it to get away, slashes at something, and then uses it to get away again.

There is a big difference between the rogue and martial classes, and assuming that the non-swordsage schools are packed with nothing but damage and more damage is a pretty huge mistake :).

Flik9999
2012-10-27, 01:57 PM
Iv put in a few new abilities that you gain as you level up. Firstly there is general stuff for base warrior classes.

New warrior abilities
Level 1
Fury: A warrior has 1 fury point/level and can use this to give him a +4 to damage, a +4 to hit, a +4 to a saving throw or a +4 to a skill check that he is trained in. These refresh each day.
Level 3
Armour expertise: A warrior can use skills without penalties in any armour his class is proficient in by default.
Level 5:
Combat mastery: The warrior’s life of fighting has taught him the tricks to fighting. He can now full attack as a standard action.


Now for fighter specifics this should allow them to be competitive with tier 2/3s.

Level 7: Armour mastery: a fighter can use his Dex bonus in any form of armour.
Level 9: Mettle: The fighters conviction is so strong, that he is able to shrug off magical effects that would harm him. If a fighter makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce the spell's effect, he suffers no effect from the spell at all. Only those spells with a Saving Throw entry of "Will partial," "Fortitude half," or similar entries can be negated through this ability.
Level 11: Focused mind: A fighter can use any number of fury points to a saving throw or skill check.
Level 13: Improved mettle: As with Mettle, but the fighter also receives half damage on a failed Fortitude save, or partial effect on a failed Will save.
Level 15: Unbreakable: The fighter gains MR 8+ HD and DR 5 while wearing Medium or Heavy armour.
Level 17: Battle Meditation: As a full round action the fighter can enter a trance to give him 2D4 fury points. This ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Level 19: Master of Arms: The fighter gains a castle and has the ability to summon men to him. As a full round action he can call out. Summoning 1D4 elite guard (level 10 fighters armed with plate mail and longswords.) 2D4 Swordsmen(Level 3 fighters armed with shield and shortsword.) and 1D6 archers (level 1 fighters armed with longbows.) Each fighter has as much weapon specialisation as their level allows.


Feats:
Detect magic: The warrior hates magic and has learned to feel when magic is in the air. He gets a +4 to all saves from magical sources, He can also as a full round action attempt to break free of all magic (This is effectively dispel magic on himself.)
Requirment: Warrior level 5
Improved fury: A warrior has focused on his inner rage and can use his Fury ability an additional 2 times a day
Requirment: Warrior level 7




I am actually (Maybe) buffing bards. I'm gonna switch em from the Bard spell list to the wizard/sorcera spell list. (That means Bards have fireball back.) and they can learn from scrolls.

What I wanna do is make the warrior classes really competitive in combat (this one at level 10 can do more damage than a mage.) But at the same time have lots of good uses out of combat. Since the skill moneys are fairly good in combat. Maybe I could make this a partial skill monkey for skills such as diplomacy. And rouges still remain skillmonkeys for thieving stuff.

I remember in second edition all the classes were skillmonkeys in their own way. As they all got roughly the same amount of skills (except thief ones.)

Archetypal warriors become kings anyway (Conan for example, Aragorn as well.)

As for TWF feats it is just a general buff to the feat so it will make rouges and other martial classes better.

Is making warriors skill monkeys stepping on the toes of the current skillmonkeys to much? Even if its in potentially different areas.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-27, 02:41 PM
I would do it by giving the fighter a per-encounter pool of combat dice, similar to the 5e D&D fighter. The dice could normally be spent to improve d20 or damage rolls, but at higher levels they could be spent on an expanding list of supernatural abilities that would keep the fighter on the same playing field as the wizard and cleric. It'll be tier 1 as long as the fighter can reset his choice of supernatural abilities every time he rests, otherwise it'll be tier 2. To avoid weirdness like the armored two-handed fighter doing flash steps every round, I'd give each supernatural ability both a level prerequisite and an ability prerequisite (Strength for area and elemental effects, Dexterity for movement and illusion effects, Constitution for self-buffs).

This is pretty much exactly what my newer fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13847478#post13847478)does, albeit with more balanced extraordinary abilities.


Flick9999, your new stuff is looking a lot better. Especially if you let Fury points slowly recharge over time and make sure the Fighter has a decent skill list. Maybe add an ability to retrain feats, and you're approaching T3 (which is probably where you want to be).

I would be worried about Master of Arms, though, as a random castle might not fit into every campaign. The summon probably could use more restrictions on how the men arrive (otherwise you can summon armed warriors into your airtight underground prison sphere with you), and, uh... more effective minions. Level 3 minions at 19th level won't be able to do anything but die-- probably just by being sneezed on. (Metaphorically).

The Detect Magic feat is weird. Between Mettle and Fury, you should be fine for shrugging off magic, and, ah... the self-dispel has a lot of the problems of Iron Heart Surge. (I run into the solid fog and dispel it by shouting!) It'd probably be better as a high-level class feature.

I don't think your bard fix is a good idea, though. Adding a few more spells to the list, maybe, but the full sorcerer/wizard list-- especially if you're limiting sorcerers and wizards to only 5th or 6th level spells as you mentioned in another thread-- seems redundant.

Felyndiira
2012-10-27, 03:13 PM
If you wanted to make the fighter a higher tier, I would focus on buffs that grant more versatility without taking away from other classes rather than just piling on more numerical bonuses.

For example, think of a normal fight between a fighter and an opponent. How many ways can the fighter defeat that opponent? He can charge and do hit point damage, or try to use one of the battlefield tactics that he actually used feats to acquire (such as tripping). If the monster has DR, he does enough damage to overcome the DR. If the monster has high AC, he must stack high enough hit to overcome the AC. But ultimately, a fighter hits a mob with hit, deals HP damage, and protects himself with saves, AC, and other such things.

If you add a slight buff to these stats, it wouldn't change the fighter's placement. If you add really high numbers to these, the fighter suddenly becomes a broken (not high tier) class: anything that plays by the rules, the fighter crushes (and can only crush - he can't diplomancy, charm, trap, disable, or do anything else that the other T3 classes can optionally do without specific feat trees). Anything that doesn't, like conditional damage immunes, invisible enemies, or other such things, the fighter is now useless.

Fury points is a good start - giving a lot options and power would have to also come with limits. However, the bonuses they give are still statistical. Also, some of them make very little fluff sense and really steps on the toes of skill-based classes - how does fury, for instance, give a +4 bonus to move silently or to diplomancy?

A good way to increase a fighter tier is to look at what makes the Tome of Battle classes tier 3. For example, what if you know your opponent has a poor fortitude save? As a fighter, if you want to hit fort somehow, you need to burn a lot of feats on it, and it would only be one effect that your opponent may or may not be weak to. With a warblade? Dazing strike.

What if you know your opponent has high armor and natural armor? As a fighter, you really just pump your hit high enough to hit him with some reliability, or hope your wizard buddy has a spell that can help you (the enhancement to overcome this is expensive). With a warblade? Emerald razor.

As you can see, the warblade already has several tricks to deal with various different weaknesses; it's not just hit vs. AC, damage vs. HP, but he has ways to overcome each of these weaknesses with the maneuvers in his arsenal. So, how do we use this to give some advantages to the fighter? How about we give him an option to perform a crushing strike and deal constitution damage? Maybe he could spend some fury points to ignore DR as well. Maybe he could deal touch damage or make the enemy flat-footed with some blade tricks, or rend the target in such a way that sends shockwaves through one of their limbs, denying them the opportunity to use one natural weapon or limb on their next X rounds failing a FORT save?

Of course, once you give the fighter this level of versatility, you'll need to start thinking about limitations as well. A fighter that can target any stat using any methods he wants, ignore any stat, and give a number of debilitating effects as well may not be enough to hit tier 2, but he will be broken in a different way. Maybe have fury be the limiting statistic in all of this, and have the more powerful abilities only be available later on.

For the abilities that you mentioned:

Armour Mastery: Looks good.
Mettle: Looks good. Will does not fit the class fluff very well, though, so that's a bit hesitant.

Improved Mettle: This has limited applicability. Improved evasion is great because most reflex-targetting attacks have partial effects. Most fort and will abilities do not.

Focused Mind: This is where the numbers thing comes in. Forcing a GM to throw no-save effects at you to compete with astronomical save bonuses in everything is not a very good idea; even spellcaster and psionic classes can't nova bonuses to this extent without cheese. When applied to skills as well, this allows you to out-skillmonkey a factotum. When applied to power attack, you can easily nova for +132 damage to each hit of the full attack, no optimization cheese required, at level 11.

Battle Meditation: This makes the above even worse. Essentially, you ARE a factotum-level skill monkey, except better. The fighter is still not able to compete with a sorc, but even without using cheesy optimization tricks, you can blow people away with infinite +68 to any check and refresh this infinitely outside of battle. Auto-succeed in knowing anything about anyone in the world? Make anyone believe anything? It's not a tier 1 as much as a tier 3, but broken.

In fact, epic level gestalt, any epic caster would break the system and instantly go caster X//fighter 17/X. An arbitrary and infinite +4*character level to spellcraft that stacks with everything else for epic spells?

Master of Arms: This is very weak for a level 19 ability :).

Detect Magic: This is probably up there as one of the most powerful feats I've seen in the game. Keep in mind, though, that most effects will not even give you that full-round action. It's not bad, though - still weaker than iron heart surge, but with a +4 bonus to saves.

Flik9999
2012-10-27, 03:59 PM
Mettle and improved mettle: Replaced with Evasion and Improved evasion.

Focused mind replaced with

Level 11: Body and mind as one: A fighter can use his strength modifier in replacement for int, wis or charisma for checks. Such as when doing a spot check.

Detect magic is availibal to all warriors not just fighters.

The level 19 castle thing is mimicking the 2nd edition fighter getting his army at level 9. (What gave the 2nd edition fighter his power at high levels.) Not sure of another ability.

Detect magic: The warrior hates magic and has learned to feel when magic is in the air. He gets a +4 to all saves from magical sources, He can also as a full round action attempt to break free of all magic (This is effectively dispel magic on himself.)
Requirment: Warrior level 8

Strike of Precision
Requirment: Fighter level 13
Instead of going for the enemy the Fighter locates a weak spot (DC assigned by DM). And does a single attack to kill the target or sever a limb. If the target is a limb such as an arm there is no saving throw. If he goes for a killing strike such as a head or plunges his sword into a dragons heart the save is a fort save Dc 10 + ˝ damage + fighters level.
Attack penalty: Large target (Arm leg etc) -4 Small target (Head heart of monster etc) -8

Shot of Precision
As strike of precision but with bows.



One of the things I thought would make fighters more versatile is the Weapon spec feats I added. Combined with Bow being changed to 2 attacks a turn (4 at level 6). I thought they can smash things in melee but can shoot things in the air as well.


I saw the fighter Grod made but I want to effectivly boost him to T3 without having a complicated system. I have to think up some good feats though. Maybe have a spell reflection feat or a Blade Beam attack that does area of effect. (Cloud ff7).

NichG
2012-10-27, 06:56 PM
I'd actually spread the castle perk out over several levels, and use that to approach Tier 3. Sprinkle in a few other weird martial quirks and...

Lets see, my version would look something like this:

Lv1: Man at Arms. Upon taking the first level of fighter, a character can choose an allegiance that they fight for which they have amicable relations with. This could be a nation, an organization, a mercenary company, etc (not a cause though - this is a real organization that exists). This organization recognizes the fighter as one of their own, and its members will provide aid for the fighter in times of need. Furthermore, when travelling on lands owned by this organization, the fighter can always request quarter from the local populace and can requisition basic armaments. A fighter may change their allegiance by approaching a new organization and spending a month of downtime joining its ranks.

A fighter without a backing organization loses out on certain class features, so it is highly recommended. However, ACFs may be available to replace these (beyond the scope of this post though).

Lv4: Sergeant. The fighter has proven himself in combat and service to his organization, and receives an improved rank. At any given time when in lands held by their organization, the fighter may requisition a single permanent magic item of value no more than 1000gp which they may use. They can get another magic item whenever they return this, or provide gold equivalent to its market value (i.e. if they lose it or want to keep it).

Lv8: Captain. The fighter has gone from a warrior to one who commands warriors. As an officer, the fighter has special rights. In any accusation of wrongdoing mediated by the organization the fighter serves, the fighter may request trial by combat to resolve the dispute. The fighter may also requisition 2 magic items, of total value up to 8000gp. They also have authority to discipline non-officers serving their organization (in a way consistent with the organization's overall ethics - i.e. no lethal discipline in a good organization). In a time of need, the fighter has the right to conscript others in the name of the organization they serve (they can gain the aid of 1d4 4th level fighters at a given time, from a given population center).

Lv12: Major. The fighter has received a grant of land from their organization, upon which may be a castle or other structure, depending on what kinds of things the organization's military uses. The fighter can requisition up 20000gp in magical items, as well as a monthly budget of 1000gp for expendable items. The fighter also gains the ability to 'call in the cavalry', which consists of requesting military support for a battle out in the open totalling no more than 50 low level (4th or below) fighters, with a single captain. This is impractical for, e.g., dungeon crawling, where the limited space makes a military operation of this nature difficult. However it could be used to protect a town, siege a (small) city, etc. The fighter only indirectly leads these soldiers, and so they will not e.g. give him all their gear, do obviously suicidal things (their captain looks out for them), and so on, but they can provide combat support.

Lv16: Colonel. I'm not sure what should be here.

Lv20: General. I'm not really sure what should be here. The fighter can dictate their organization's overall military strategy? Its kind of nebulous... Edit: Ooh, here's an idea. The fighter is such a paragon of martial prowess that other friendly NPCs on the field look at them for guidance. Each round during a fight, the fighter may choose to take the reins of one friendly NPC of lower level. In addition to their normal actions, the fighter can choose actions for this NPC (and is in-character aware both of what they are going to do, and of their set of abilities).


The ability to dynamically change out magical gear is pretty powerful, and thats the meat of why I'd consider this Tier 3 (I'd almost say it should be be Tier 2 if the Fighter actually got the UMD to use all the random stuff in the books, but that no longer looks like a Fighter to me). The whole connection to an organization gives the Fighter a mechanical advantage that isn't well duplicated by other classes - the inherent respect of a surrounding, warrior culture. Other classes get court trials, but the fighter gets to take a trial by combat. Other little touches like that.

Yitzi
2012-10-27, 08:42 PM
This is a bad idea, honestly. While balance is a thing, I've played games where it takes two+ rounds to use magic, and it's really not fun to waste half your actions.

Actually, 2 would be fine. 1 is where you decide what spell to cast (an important one), and another is where you see it take effect. It's when it's more that you feel like you're doing nothing.

I'd say leave casting times at no more than 1 round for most of them, and instead weaken save DCs (or improve saves), then allow the DCs to be boosted with "ritual spells" that take a longer time to cast.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-10-27, 08:46 PM
Actually, 2 would be fine. 1 is where you decide what spell to cast (an important one), and another is where you see it take effect. It's when it's more that you feel like you're doing nothing.

I'd say leave casting times at no more than 1 round for most of them, and instead weaken save DCs (or improve saves), then allow the DCs to be boosted with "ritual spells" that take a longer time to cast.

Some systems like Spycraft make no distinction between move and standard actions. You just have two actions per round, and you can do whatever you like with them. In such a system warriors get two attacks per round, while mages only get to fire off one.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-10-27, 10:09 PM
Actually, 2 would be fine. 1 is where you decide what spell to cast (an important one), and another is where you see it take effect. It's when it's more that you feel like you're doing nothing.

I'd say leave casting times at no more than 1 round for most of them, and instead weaken save DCs (or improve saves), then allow the DCs to be boosted with "ritual spells" that take a longer time to cast.

I have played a caster in a system where you spend you decide what to cast one round, start casting, and finish the next (Exalted). It did feel like I was spending every other round doing nothing.

If it's a standard action to start casting and it goes off at the start of your turn next round, maybe. But if it's actually 2 standard actions... even ignoring fun, the more you restrict magic, the more you encourage people to focus on the most broken spells. I'm ok with just casting a fireball and a magic missile. But if casting a single spell takes me two rounds, I'm going to start looking for spells that are two or three times as powerful as the options everyone else gets.

Yitzi
2012-10-27, 11:04 PM
I have played a caster in a system where you spend you decide what to cast one round, start casting, and finish the next (Exalted). It did feel like I was spending every other round doing nothing.

If it's a standard action to start casting and it goes off at the start of your turn next round, maybe. But if it's actually 2 standard actions... even ignoring fun, the more you restrict magic, the more you encourage people to focus on the most broken spells. I'm ok with just casting a fireball and a magic missile. But if casting a single spell takes me two rounds, I'm going to start looking for spells that are two or three times as powerful as the options everyone else gets.

If casting a single spell takes two rounds, then a spell should be twice as powerful as the options everyone else gets (assuming you pick the right spell for the situation, and take the average over all encounter types.)

Deepbluediver
2012-10-28, 01:10 AM
If casting a single spell takes two rounds, then a spell should be twice as powerful as the options everyone else gets (assuming you pick the right spell for the situation, and take the average over all encounter types.)

There all already a lot of spells that are twice as powerful as other options, just usually not when it comes to direct damage.

As I've said before, there's no simple fix for magic, and I think doubling the standard casting time would add as many problems as it would fix.

Dralnu
2012-10-28, 01:02 PM
If you want a tier 1 fighter you need him to do things that recreate broken t1 abilities. He runs so fast that he effectively stops time around him. His weapon swings are so strong and precise that he tears open a Gate to summon extraplanar creatures. He can cobble together atoms with precise slices to make whatever the heck he wants out of whatever is around him. He defies gravity by intimidating it into submission.

If you're so intent on balancing fighters with wizards, I would suggest trying out 4e. Many things Eladriel touched on (fighters being able to tank and protect wizards, fighters having much more options, wizards functioning on-par with fighters in combat, more impressive spells take more time and are done outside of combat) are all there. It took me two years before I stubbornly made the switch and I'm very happy that I did.

Flik9999
2012-10-28, 08:40 PM
I think I have achieved balance now. A single school of magic will seriously hurt mages. I was also thinking of putting these variants into the fighter.

This is the army ability.

Level 6: Sergeant: The fighter is well by his order. His reward upon reaching this rank (Level 6) is a magical weapon of the players choice worth no more than 1000GP.

Level 12: Captain: The fighter is well respected by his order. He is rewarded by having a headquarters set up for him. This normally starts as a small Manor house but the fighter will get funds to build it. He is also rewarded with up to 20000GP of magical items and he receives 1000GP a month for him to build his estate and hire troops. He has a maximum army size of 50.
Level 6: Sergeant: The fighter is well by his order. His reward upon reaching this rank (Level 6) is a magical weapon of the players choice worth no more than 1000GP. He can also hire a few men for his squad. Maximum army size 4.


Level 16: Major: The fighter is one of the most well known men of the land. Women want him and men want to be him. Upon returning to his state the fighter can begin to recruit a full on army. When he wants he can wait around his estate and within one month 1D6 * 100 men will arrive and pledge themselves to his service. He is also rewarded with 50000 GP of magical items and his monthly pay goes up to 3000GP. He has a maximum army size of 1000.


Level 20: General: The fighter has risen the ranks to that of general. He no longer gets pay from his order and now must levy taxes, he has no restrictions to how many men he can hire. He can also buy any magical weapon he wants as he is now one of the rulers of his order.




Dragoon
Level 1: Champion of Bahamut
The fighter is a champion of a Dragon and can attempt to do jumping attacks at enemies. Jump is a full round action and allows them to attack a target they can move to, however it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and inflicts double damage if they are using a Speer or lance.
Jump requires both a Jump check (DC 10 + 1 per foot + targets level.) And an attack roll.
When the Dragoon can fly they can jump at flying creatures as well.
This replaces the bonus feat at level 1.

Level 2: Jump Master: The fighter gets Speer or lance specialization as a bonus feat. They also get a +2 to Jump checks when using it to attack.

Level 6: Glide: Bahamut has blessed the fighter and granted them the use of a Dragoon form. The fighter can switch in and out of his/her dragoon form at will. While in Dragoon form the fighter is venerable to weapons such as Dragonlances that effect creatures with the type dragon.
This Dragoon form has glide.
This replaces sergeant.

Level 9:Flight: The fighter gains Flight 30 (poor)
This replaces Evasion.

Level 12: Draconic vigor: Once per day the fighter may do a Draconic scream. Pulling in 1D4 Draconian warrios of his level from another dimension.
[Draconian HP: 10/level HD:D12 BAB: +1/level
Str 12 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 8
Damage: Bastard Sword +5+ BAB (1D10+6) AC 16(5 natural armour, 1 Dex)
Feats: Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec]

Level 13:Improved Flight: The fighter gains Flight 50 (Average)
This replaces Improved Evasion.

Level 16:Greater Flight: The fighter gains Flight 90 (Good)
This replaces major.

Level 20:Guardian: Once a day the fighter can call out to their guardian Bahamut. He appears for them and will fight for the player until Death (Returns to his own realm.) Or for 1 round/level of the fighter.

Mystic Knight
The mystic knight is a fighter who uses the elements to aid them and thier allies. They are trained to work with spellcasters applying spells to thier blades then striking.
Level 1: Spellstrike The Fighter has trained with spellcasters and knows how to prepare his blade for a spell. A spellcaster in his party can cast a spell on his blade and the spell triggers next time the fighter hits the target.
This replaces the Bonus feat.

Level 2: Channel energy: The mystic warrior can channel positive energy healing herself or a single target by 2D6. This increases by 1D6 every two levels.
Replaces the bonus feats at every even level.


Level 7: Blade Beam: The Fighters experience with magic has allowed her to use minor magical attacks. She can now use a full attack action to send a beam at a single target. The Fighter rolls her damage as if it was a normal attack. If the attack hits 3 additional beams roll of from the primary target and each hit a separate target. The secondary beams deal 3D10 damage.

Level 15: Elemental shell: The Fighter is attuned with the elements and can raise a shield centered on themselves reducing damage from a single school or domain by 50%. Useable once per day plus once per day for every level above 15.



Warrior:

Standard Fighter Kit gets a bonus feat every two levels.

Savage

Standard fighter except trades bonus feats for Dodge at level 1 and Sneak attack (x2) after. This functions exactly the same as sneak attack except it simply doubles weapon damage. (Eg a greatsword would be 4D6, and a longsword 2D8). This increases by an additional x1 until reaching x10 at level 20.

Blue1005
2012-11-01, 02:07 AM
Are these tier concepts posted somewhere? I often hear of them but am not totally sure of where they are being referenced from.

TuggyNE
2012-11-01, 02:19 AM
Are these tier concepts posted somewhere? I often hear of them but am not totally sure of where they are being referenced from.

JaronK's tier system (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658). Read it, ponder it, know it, love it. :smallwink:

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-11-01, 02:55 AM
I think I have achieved balance now. A single school of magic will seriously hurt mages. I was also thinking of putting these variants into the fighter.

This is the army ability.

Level 6: Sergeant: The fighter is well by his order. His reward upon reaching this rank (Level 6) is a magical weapon of the players choice worth no more than 1000GP.

Level 12: Captain: The fighter is well respected by his order. He is rewarded by having a headquarters set up for him. This normally starts as a small Manor house but the fighter will get funds to build it. He is also rewarded with up to 20000GP of magical items and he receives 1000GP a month for him to build his estate and hire troops. He has a maximum army size of 50.
Level 6: Sergeant: The fighter is well by his order. His reward upon reaching this rank (Level 6) is a magical weapon of the players choice worth no more than 1000GP. He can also hire a few men for his squad. Maximum army size 4.


Level 16: Major: The fighter is one of the most well known men of the land. Women want him and men want to be him. Upon returning to his state the fighter can begin to recruit a full on army. When he wants he can wait around his estate and within one month 1D6 * 100 men will arrive and pledge themselves to his service. He is also rewarded with 50000 GP of magical items and his monthly pay goes up to 3000GP. He has a maximum army size of 1000.


Level 20: General: The fighter has risen the ranks to that of general. He no longer gets pay from his order and now must levy taxes, he has no restrictions to how many men he can hire. He can also buy any magical weapon he wants as he is now one of the rulers of his order.




Dragoon
Level 1: Champion of Bahamut
The fighter is a champion of a Dragon and can attempt to do jumping attacks at enemies. Jump is a full round action and allows them to attack a target they can move to, however it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity and inflicts double damage if they are using a Speer or lance.
Jump requires both a Jump check (DC 10 + 1 per foot + targets level.) And an attack roll.
When the Dragoon can fly they can jump at flying creatures as well.
This replaces the bonus feat at level 1.

Level 2: Jump Master: The fighter gets Speer or lance specialization as a bonus feat. They also get a +2 to Jump checks when using it to attack.

Level 6: Glide: Bahamut has blessed the fighter and granted them the use of a Dragoon form. The fighter can switch in and out of his/her dragoon form at will. While in Dragoon form the fighter is venerable to weapons such as Dragonlances that effect creatures with the type dragon.
This Dragoon form has glide.
This replaces sergeant.

Level 9:Flight: The fighter gains Flight 30 (poor)
This replaces Evasion.

Level 12: Draconic vigor: Once per day the fighter may do a Draconic scream. Pulling in 1D4 Draconian warrios of his level from another dimension.
[Draconian HP: 10/level HD:D12 BAB: +1/level
Str 12 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 8
Damage: Bastard Sword +5+ BAB (1D10+6) AC 16(5 natural armour, 1 Dex)
Feats: Weapon Spec, Greater Weapon Spec]

Level 13:Improved Flight: The fighter gains Flight 50 (Average)
This replaces Improved Evasion.

Level 16:Greater Flight: The fighter gains Flight 90 (Good)
This replaces major.

Level 20:Guardian: Once a day the fighter can call out to their guardian Bahamut. He appears for them and will fight for the player until Death (Returns to his own realm.) Or for 1 round/level of the fighter.

Mystic Knight
The mystic knight is a fighter who uses the elements to aid them and thier allies. They are trained to work with spellcasters applying spells to thier blades then striking.
Level 1: Spellstrike The Fighter has trained with spellcasters and knows how to prepare his blade for a spell. A spellcaster in his party can cast a spell on his blade and the spell triggers next time the fighter hits the target.
This replaces the Bonus feat.

Level 2: Channel energy: The mystic warrior can channel positive energy healing herself or a single target by 2D6. This increases by 1D6 every two levels.
Replaces the bonus feats at every even level.


Level 7: Blade Beam: The Fighters experience with magic has allowed her to use minor magical attacks. She can now use a full attack action to send a beam at a single target. The Fighter rolls her damage as if it was a normal attack. If the attack hits 3 additional beams roll of from the primary target and each hit a separate target. The secondary beams deal 3D10 damage.

Level 15: Elemental shell: The Fighter is attuned with the elements and can raise a shield centered on themselves reducing damage from a single school or domain by 50%. Useable once per day plus once per day for every level above 15.



Warrior:

Standard Fighter Kit gets a bonus feat every two levels.

Savage

Standard fighter except trades bonus feats for Dodge at level 1 and Sneak attack (x2) after. This functions exactly the same as sneak attack except it simply doubles weapon damage. (Eg a greatsword would be 4D6, and a longsword 2D8). This increases by an additional x1 until reaching x10 at level 20.

You're closer to the right track. Remember, flat numerical increases are boooring. Rolling fistfulls of dice is for nerdy wizards. Once you've got a lot of ideas on paper you should formalize it, give it proper text formatting, and make it more modular.

I recommend you give the fighter some kind of per-encounter resource ("wuxia points", or whatever you want to call them) with a very basic use (auto-confirm a critical hit, or reroll a damage roll, likely something specific to the fighter's specialty). Then just write up a list of abilities that the fighter spends the resource to perform, along with level prerequisites (so the fighter can't use any slashing weapon to cut a gate to another plane in the fabric of space until at least 17th level).

Exactly how you do this is up to you. If I got to do it, I would give the fighter a massive "spell" list that he can draw from at any time, but make sure every single ability has a level and ability score prerequisite (so a "flash step" ability has a prerequisite of Dexterity 17). Buffing stats to meet prerequisites for abilities would be encouraged (and a low-level ability would allow the fighter to temporarily buff his stats, reducing dependency on magic items). Abilities would be limited in use each encounter because of the resource (dice in my case), and any ability that seems too powerful for per-encounter use (like polymorphing) would cause ability burn (see the Expanded Psionics Handbook), reducing the Fighter's key stats and preventing him from using higher-level abilities.

I would do everything possible to prevent these abilities from duplicating spells, and to only use the action economy to balance REALLY powerful effects. For example, instead of bull's strength, we have horn of the iron ox, usable as a swift action as part of any melee attack to grant the fighter a +2 cumulative enhancement bonus to Strength for 1 minute.

Yitzi
2012-11-03, 09:57 PM
I recommend you give the fighter some kind of per-encounter resource ("wuxia points", or whatever you want to call them) with a very basic use (auto-confirm a critical hit, or reroll a damage roll, likely something specific to the fighter's specialty). Then just write up a list of abilities that the fighter spends the resource to perform, along with level prerequisites (so the fighter can't use any slashing weapon to cut a gate to another plane in the fabric of space until at least 17th level).

Exactly how you do this is up to you. If I got to do it, I would give the fighter a massive "spell" list that he can draw from at any time, but make sure every single ability has a level and ability score prerequisite (so a "flash step" ability has a prerequisite of Dexterity 17). Buffing stats to meet prerequisites for abilities would be encouraged (and a low-level ability would allow the fighter to temporarily buff his stats, reducing dependency on magic items). Abilities would be limited in use each encounter because of the resource (dice in my case), and any ability that seems too powerful for per-encounter use (like polymorphing) would cause ability burn (see the Expanded Psionics Handbook), reducing the Fighter's key stats and preventing him from using higher-level abilities.

I would do everything possible to prevent these abilities from duplicating spells, and to only use the action economy to balance REALLY powerful effects. For example, instead of bull's strength, we have horn of the iron ox, usable as a swift action as part of any melee attack to grant the fighter a +2 cumulative enhancement bonus to Strength for 1 minute.

I don't know...we really have enough spend-points-for-effects classes.

An approach that I find to be a better idea is to make fighting styles (essentially a cross between feat chains, scaling feats, and ToB stances), and as the fighter increases in level he gains both more styles and more uses for each style. With a few exceptions, he can only use one style at a time, with a minor action economy cost (no more than a move action) for switching between them.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-11-03, 10:52 PM
I have played a caster in a system where you spend you decide what to cast one round, start casting, and finish the next (Exalted). It did feel like I was spending every other round doing nothing.
Exalted really doesn't have combat casting. Which is why mortal sorcerers tend to prefer to not get a job involving combat, unless they also have Terrestrial Martial Arts training.

If you're so intent on balancing fighters with wizards, I would suggest trying out 4e. Many things Eladriel touched on (fighters being able to tank and protect wizards, fighters having much more options, wizards functioning on-par with fighters in combat, more impressive spells take more time and are done outside of combat) are all there. It took me two years before I stubbornly made the switch and I'm very happy that I did.

I love 4e. You see, 3.5 always had a rustic sort of feel to it, like you're supposed to be in a medieval setting, but with world-changing magic.

4e is also something of a medieval setting, but the important thing is is that the magic isn't as world-changing. Sure, mages have a few non-combat tricks, but not enough for the world to logically be ruled entirely by mages (openly or secretly). 4e is also more vibrant, from the artwork to the abilities. Your barbarian doesn't expend a rage use for his standard rage abilities. He channels his spiritual power to take on traits of a panther or wolf! Blue dragons don't build up hoards by raiding caravans traveling through the desert. They claim mountainous areas frequented by storms! The picture of the iconic fighter isn't some dwarf standing around with an axe and shield. It's a dragonborn shouting defiance to his enemy!

To me, that's how D&D should be. Your ascent into high levels shouldn't be marked by how big the dragon is or how much stronger you are compared to the level one guys. You shouldn't just be able to hit harder, but you shouldn't be Batman at the Justice League level either. And the term "player character" actually matters in 4e. NPCs and monsters can't get the same stuff PCs do.

lunar2
2012-11-05, 12:58 PM
Exalted really doesn't have combat casting. Which is why mortal sorcerers tend to prefer to not get a job involving combat, unless they also have Terrestrial Martial Arts training.


I love 4e. You see, 3.5 always had a rustic sort of feel to it, like you're supposed to be in a medieval setting, but with world-changing magic.

4e is also something of a medieval setting, but the important thing is is that the magic isn't as world-changing. Sure, mages have a few non-combat tricks, but not enough for the world to logically be ruled entirely by mages (openly or secretly). 4e is also more vibrant, from the artwork to the abilities. Your barbarian doesn't expend a rage use for his standard rage abilities. He channels his spiritual power to take on traits of a panther or wolf! Blue dragons don't build up hoards by raiding caravans traveling through the desert. They claim mountainous areas frequented by storms! The picture of the iconic fighter isn't some dwarf standing around with an axe and shield. It's a dragonborn shouting defiance to his enemy!

To me, that's how D&D should be. Your ascent into high levels shouldn't be marked by how big the dragon is or how much stronger you are compared to the level one guys. You shouldn't just be able to hit harder, but you shouldn't be Batman at the Justice League level either. And the term "player character" actually matters in 4e. NPCs and monsters can't get the same stuff PCs do.

that last one is actually the one i disagree with most. player character should simply mean the character controlled by the player. it should have no mechanical effects at all. if pcs and npcs live in the same world, they should follow the same rules.