Necrons vs Daleks

[shadow_archmagi]

IN ONE CORNER, we have everyone's favorite omnicidal androids from the far future, armed with incredibly advanced technology and a will to destroy everything and everyone that isn't them.

In the other corner, everyone's favorite omnicidal cyborgs from the far future, armed with incredibly advanced technology and a will to destroy everything and everyone that isn't them.

The setting: Some Daleks, due to an emergency teleport, find themselves stranded in a distance corner of the galaxy. They begin rebuilding their empire just as a collection of nearby Tomb Worlds begin to awaken. The two immediately go to war, because that's their nature.

For the purposes of the thread, we'll assume that the Necrons have anti time-travel tech (Which they may very well, given the nature of the things), negating that particular advantage.

TRAITS COMMON TO BOTH SIDES:
Futuristic, durable armor
High powered disintegration weaponry
Technology that tends to work more like magic
Completely insane

TRAITS UNIQUE TO NECRONS:
Extremely good self-repair systems

Automatically teleport back to base when severely damaged

Lower-ranking soldiers are completely mindless

Wide variety of unit types, ranging from mind-control robot scarabs to giant hovering monoliths

Wide array of ancient and incredibly powerful pieces of tech scattered across galaxy

TRAITS UNIQUE TO DALEKS:
Incredible INT scores on everyone, meaning even the lowest-ranking footsoldier has evil-genius potential.

Can (and do) clone new Daleks at a rapid rate.

Daleks can develop new technologies very quickly.

Entire army can fly freely.

[Tiki Snakes]

Given the limitations in the OP, the Necrons probably have this one. Which is to say, if the Dalek go in heavy and soon, the Necrons should be able to whittle the Dalek down enough to force them to escape the situation, fleeing in time and/or space.

Victory to the Necron by default.

However, the Dalek advantage is in the mid to long game. They are quite capable of building up however many forces they need from all but nothing. Once they get to the point of being an actual Imperial Force they will steamroller the Necron simply due to their superior focus. They are significantly more monolithic, and will tend to work together as a single implacable force where the new style Necrons can't be assumed to work together automatically. If anything is going to force them to, a sizeable Dalek force intent on Exterminating every last Necron might do it though, presumably, which leaves the deciding factor coming down to which side can more easily replace it's losses.

Which I assume to be the Dalek, from what I know.

So, providing the Dalek either break the rule in the OP about immediately going to war or hold back enough forces to continue building up despite their initial strike-force failing, eventual Last Monster Standing goes to the New Dalek Empire.

[The Glyphstone]

Don't forget the Necrons also have enslaved demigods at their beck and call, each of whom can order the laws of physics to sit down and shut up in unique and interesting ways, and they've got a lot of them, if scattered and somewhat untrustworthy. They can be brought down individually, but it'll cost a lot of Daleks to do it.

Considering the sheer carnage that's going to happen, it's not so much who has the better loss replenishment so much as who's got the higher kill/loss ratio. If the Necrons can, with their SCIENCE!!, C'tan Shards, and significantly higher proficiency at point-blank/melee (Warscythe > Toilet Plunger, with teleportation abilities to close the distance), outstrip the Dalek's individual tactical superiority, unit cohesion, and replenishment rate to kill them faster than they can rebuild, attrition means the Daleks will lose out in the end. But that's a whole lot of variables we have to guess on.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, thing is if even a tiny handful of daleks survive the can rebuild and pretty much always do. Whereas aren't there basically a finite number of necron? The C'Tan shards are a huge potential advantage, but if every dead necron is one less they'll ever have to deal with, it's pretty much a done deal.

Assuming they don't commit too much too soon, because if no daleks survive that's it, game over.

[The Glyphstone]

Well, thing is if even a tiny handful of daleks survive the can rebuild and pretty much always do. Whereas aren't there basically a finite number of necron? The C'Tan shards are a huge potential advantage, but if every dead necron is one less they'll ever have to deal with, it's pretty much a done deal.

Assuming they don't commit too much too soon, because if no daleks survive that's it, game over.

Doesn't that also assume the Necrons won't counter-attack and go Dalek Hunting? If the Daleks are allowed to rebuild their forces indefinitely, they'll definitely win, but Daleks fleeing from Necron assault forces are Daleks not quietly building up to another attack.

[Tiki Snakes]

Doesn't that also assume the Necrons won't counter-attack and go Dalek Hunting? If the Daleks are allowed to rebuild their forces indefinitely, they'll definitely win, but Daleks fleeing from Necron assault forces are Daleks not quietly building up to another attack.

That's where the Necron's fractured state/society holds them back. They'd need to hunt them down, ruthlessly and across the entire universe. But with most necron worlds not working together, they'll lack the logistical support to really do that.
(And this of course is assuming the Daleks abide by OP terms and conditions and don't simply cheat by, I don't know, putting a planet out of phase with the rest of the universe and hiding in between moments for as long as they fancy, stolen earth style or something. Conversely, if the necrons end up on the wrong foot, there won't be any hiding places as the Daleks will not, by that point, lack the logistics to do what is needed.
No, I think that if it's allowed to turn into a drawn out affair, the chances of the Daleks losing diminishes pretty steadily. With their greater variety of ground forces and their devastating weapons tech, the Necrons have the advantage as long as they can force a conclusion on their terms and their timescale.

[The Glyphstone]

Necrons can also cheat by hiding in hyperspace and pocket dimensions, places the Daleks can't access. Though if it's 'united Dalek Empire vs. individual Necron Dynasties', the Necrons will eventually be ground out of existence by raw attrition.

[Tiki Snakes]

I generally agree with that. Though, all things considered, the Daleks ability to figure out Pocket Dimensions and Hyperspace is not to be underestimated.

Hell, depending on the Daleks, they may very well have escaped from a few in their time.

[The Glyphstone]

I wouldn't necessarily rule out the Necrons finding a way to crack the out-of-phase thing, though - they've got limited chronotech of their own, and the terms of the battle give them anti-time travel technology which the out-of-time-phase seems to be partially based on.

I think there's just too many unanswerable variables here to choose a definitive winner, though I want to tentatively give the Necrons a slight edge. Dalek gunsticks/blaster beams don't - if the source I read is accurate - inflict total disintegration, and it generally takes full-body instant annihilation to prevent a Necron from teleporting to safety and being repaired, so the Necrons finite numbers are effectively multiplied significantly, possibly near-infinitely, by the difficulty Daleks will have in permanently removing them from action. Plus, even the Daleks presumably need resources of some kind to replenish their forces, which puts an indeterminate finite (if effectively arbitrarily large) cap on their maximum troop pool too.

[shadow_archmagi]

Necrons can also cheat by hiding in hyperspace and pocket dimensions, places the Daleks can't access. Though if it's 'united Dalek Empire vs. individual Necron Dynasties', the Necrons will eventually be ground out of existence by raw attrition.

For the purposes of the thread, all the necrons in this corner of the galaxy are from the same dynasty.


I feel like the Dalek's superior range and accuracy is definitely worth noting- In Victory of the Daleks, their ordinary phaser is used as an anti-aircraft weapon.

[The Glyphstone]

Okay, if the Necrons have their internal infighting and conflicts removed, that makes them a vastly more formidable opponent than they would be otherwise.

[Zahhak]

I've never heard of the Necron, but if they are able to go up stairs, or into rocky areas, or really any place that isn't a city with well maintained roads, sidewalks, and elevators, the Necron win.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I find it highly unrealistic that a civilization that had to pirate another race's FTL system has anti-time travel capability. I choose to instead blame it on the inverse space wedgie tripling the polarity of the neutron flow creating interference too great to exit time.

Anyways as their first and probably least crazy op'ed action the Daleks say... release a nanogene cloud to convert any Necrons nearby into Dalek slaves while if they feel the need to use a planet they armor it with a planetary force field capable of surviving their own standards for Exterminate-tus, which doesn't settle for being merely uninhabitable like the Imperium. While also teleporting onto a Necron vessel to plunger a couple of control panels accessing them and getting a complete analysis of Necrons tech, so if usual levels of invulnerability are insufficient they will just make the upgrades soon enough.

Just to put in perspective the Daleks fought on equal terms with race who's comically obsolete technology is capable of towing planet Earth across the universe without killing everyone living on the planet. And the Daleks matched them so completely reality broke and became a mockery of existence so bad the other side decided it was better to ragequit and turn off existence. And after that they not only survived but decided to kill everything, everywhere, every universe.

If you aren't the oncoming storm you are superior to the Daleks in only one respect:

DY-ING!

[SaruSama]

I gotta say IMO the Necrons have this one pretty handily, I mean from the OPS scenario the initial troop advantage should go to the necrons. If im reading the situation correctly the daleks are just starting to rebuild themselves which means that a whole tomb world worth of necrons are going to be gunning down on them and hunting down any random survivors.
In light of this the only real chance i see for the daleks is if the necrons innate craziness lets one of them get away. Because if one does manage to get away clean they will build until the battle is obviously in their favor. However I kind of doubt that because most of the actual fighting will probably be wave after wave of mindless drones.

[The Glyphstone]

Just to put in perspective the Daleks fought on equal terms with race who's comically obsolete technology is capable of towing planet Earth across the universe without killing everyone living on the planet. And the Daleks matched them so completely reality broke and became a mockery of existence so bad the other side decided it was better to ragequit and turn off existence. And after that they not only survived but decided to kill everything, everywhere, every universe.

If you aren't the oncoming storm you are superior to the Daleks in only one respect:

DY-ING!

And the Necrons managed to not just exterminate two races of physical gods, but bind the broken fragments of one of those races of gods into eternal slavery, before turning off the lights and going to sleep for sixty million years. The Daleks do not have a monopoly on crazy OP historical feats...they don't even have a monopoly on mind-control nanotech.

[Siosilvar]

I've never heard of the Necron, but if they are able to go up stairs, or into rocky areas, or really any place that isn't a city with well maintained roads, sidewalks, and elevators, the Necron win.

EL-E-VATE! ~NuWho Daleks

[Dienekes]

EL-E-VATE! ~NuWho Daleks

Old Who as well actually.

One thing to note is how intelligent are we actually making the Daleks here? Oh I know we're told they're all geniuses, but they have been shown to have technology that is absolutely insurmountable if used with the slightest tactical ability.

They can teleport anything, and have small bombs that can completely destroy a planet. Clouds of SCIENCE that can turn any organic matter into Dalek slaves, that don't even know they're slaves. Hell they have even created machines that could destroy the entire universe and a means of keeping themselves and only themselves safe from the blast. None of this stuff works, because the Daleks are kinda idiots about it.

Now I don't know much about the Necrons, but they'll need some very big guns to stand up to a Dalek empire that actually uses their equipment intelligently.

[Avilan the Grey]

I've never heard of the Necron, but if they are able to go up stairs, or into rocky areas, or really any place that isn't a city with well maintained roads, sidewalks, and elevators, the Necron win.

You haven't watched Dr Who for the last 20 years, have you?

As for another point: Isn't the Nectrons limited to the Milky Way? I thought only the Tyranids were extra-galactic in their origin? (not counting the warp). The Daleks are not so limited, AFAIR.

[Selrahc]

Daleks build up things like Universe guns made out of planets if given a chance. Necrons don't.

[Avilan the Grey]

Daleks build up things like Universe guns made out of planets if given a chance. Necrons don't.

That's true; Dalek Fluff is one of the few that have More Dakka than 40k Fluff.

[Cikomyr]

There is on flaw in the opening statement: Daleks aren't Androids. They are living creature using cybernetic technology.

Except if I missed a new plot point...

[Eldan]

The Necrons are the androids, I'd assume. The Daleks are cyborgs.


And the Necrons managed to not just exterminate two races of physical gods, but bind the broken fragments of one of those races of gods into eternal slavery, before turning off the lights and going to sleep for sixty million years. The Daleks do not have a monopoly on crazy OP historical feats...they don't even have a monopoly on mind-control nanotech.

Two races of gods?

[Cikomyr]

The Necrons are the androids, I'd assume. The Daleks are cyborgs.


/facepalm :smallannoyed:

[Cikomyr]

The Necrons are the androids, I'd assume. The Daleks are cyborgs.



Two races of gods?

C'Tan and... Old Ones?

[The Glyphstone]

C'Tan and... Old Ones?

I'll admit they did technically have help killing the Old Ones (from the C'tan), but then they took out the C'tan on their own.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'll admit they did technically have help killing the Old Ones (from the C'tan), but then they took out the C'tan on their own.

More then technically.

And only taking out the Old Ones gave the Necrons the shot to backstab the C'tan.

And I still put that conflict below Dalek tech.

[Eldan]

I'll admit they did technically have help killing the Old Ones (from the C'tan), but then they took out the C'tan on their own.

Ah. I must have misunderstood you, then. I thought they had enslaved two races of gods and I was wondering if there was any indication that either the C'tan where two distinct races, or if there were also Old One Shards in the new codex.

[Zahhak]

EL-E-VATE! ~NuWho Daleks

You haven't watched Dr Who for the last 20 years, have you?

I was assuming we were talking about Old Who Daleks, who I have not seen to be able to magically fly, since in the Nu Who we are told like 80 times that the Daleks have been wiped from all of time and space. It's a load of bull**** that the writers continually try to get around by simply ignoring instead of coming up with an enemy for the Doctor to fight that isn't a horribly overdone joke, but still, we are told more then once that the Daleks are all dead. So, I am under the assumption of Old Who Daleks who cannot fly, and are thus limited to cities with well maintained roads, sidewalks, and elevators.

[The Glyphstone]

The Daleks can't be completely gone, I thought there was some sort of contract clause BBC had that required them to use the Daleks at least once per year/season or lose the rights to their image forever.

[Dienekes]

I was assuming we were talking about Old Who Daleks, who I have not seen to be able to magically fly, since in the Nu Who we are told like 80 times that the Daleks have been wiped from all of time and space. It's a load of bull**** that the writers continually try to get around by simply ignoring instead of coming up with an enemy for the Doctor to fight that isn't a horribly overdone joke, but still, we are told more then once that the Daleks are all dead. So, I am under the assumption of Old Who Daleks who cannot fly, and are thus limited to cities with well maintained roads, sidewalks, and elevators.

Go watch Remembrance of the Daleks.

And yes, NuWho never came up with new enemies like the Silence, or the Weeping Angels, or the Vashta Nerada, or the Ood.

Also the Daleks are all dead hasn't been a thing for the last 3 seasons, though I will admit it was horribly overused during the Davies run.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Also the Daleks are all dead hasn't been a thing for the last 3 seasons, though I will admit it was horribly overused during the Davies run.

Twice is horribly overused?

I barely even count the single Dalek case personally, and think the writers figured that too. You didn't really think just one escaped did you? So you really only have from the Emperor to the Cult of Skaro. The Cult explicitly escaped so its hardly "oh they're all dead"

[1dominator]

For a bunch with genius level int scores the Daleks always struck me as incredibly thick.

Also I thought the necrons serve the C'tan.

[shadow_archmagi]

For a bunch with genius level int scores the Daleks always struck me as incredibly thick.

Genius level INT scores, toddler level WIS scores.

Same goes for the Necrons, really.

EDIT: New Codex reveals that the Necrons exploded the C'tan. RETCONS for EVERYONE!

[Manga Shoggoth]

Go watch Remembrance of the Daleks.

The daleks were using anti-gravity disks for "flight" and going out in jungles long before that. It's really only in their original appearance(s) that they were limited to cities (and that was primarily due to power constraints).

The "limited to cities" and "defeated by stairs" were largely brought about by the limitations of filming people in dalek suits back in the early days of television.

[Aotrs Commander]

The daleks were using anti-gravity disks for "flight" and going out in jungles long before that. It's really only in their original appearance(s) that they were limited to cities (and that was primarily due to power constraints).

The "limited to cities" and "defeated by stairs" were largely brought about by the limitations of filming people in dalek suits back in the early days of television.

The Daleks apparently really took that one time the Forth Doctor made a crack about it to heart...

(Note that that incident was largely responsible for the popular culture myth Daleks couldn't climb stairs, and a mispercieved one at that, as the opening the Doctor was taunting them through was also one that was too small for a Dalek to fit through. They had been implied to have levitating capabilites off-screen for a long time, and also in non-TV media appeances, like comic adaptions (where they could afford to do it); in one instance as far back as the First Doctor's The Chase (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ljzlZrF3vU), a Dalek was shown to rise vertically out of sand (not saying it was well done, this being early Doctor Who, but it was done...!))

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It all boils down to one question, really...

...which one does The Doctor see as the greater threat? :smallwink:

[Tiki Snakes]

It all boils down to one question, really...

...which one does The Doctor see as the greater threat? :smallwink:

Nah. If the Doctor gets involved at all, it will be by appearing in the mopping up stage, just as the Victor starts looking around shiftily for something else to pick a fight with.

[Zahhak]

And yes, NuWho never came up with new enemies like the Silence, or the Weeping Angels, or the Vashta Nerada, or the Ood.

The Silence was one season, possibly two, the weeping angels have been in three episodes, the Vashta Nerada one, and the Ood were the enemy once (recurring yes, recurring enemy, no). They were good enemies (except the Ood), and they should have expanded atleast one of them into a recurring enemy, but they haven't. The Daleks are the only real recurring threat in Doctor Who, despite the numerous times the Doctor has said he wiped them all out.


Also the Daleks are all dead hasn't been a thing for the last 3 seasons, though I will admit it was horribly overused during the Davies run.

The Doctor has said he wiped them all since then.

[Aotrs Commander]

The Doctor has said he wiped them all since then.

I take it you're not up to date with the last two seasons, then? (In which the Daleks have come back and cheerfully re-established their Empire, after solidly putting one over the Doctor? (Victory of the Daleks/Asylum of the Daleks?))

[Dienekes]

Twice is horribly overused?

I barely even count the single Dalek case personally, and think the writers figured that too. You didn't really think just one escaped did you? So you really only have from the Emperor to the Cult of Skaro. The Cult explicitly escaped so its hardly "oh they're all dead"

Time War/Dalek episode= Daleks are all dead. 1
Bad Wolf= Insane Dalek empire shows up. All Daleks are supposedly wiped out by Rose. 2
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday= Dalek invasion, technically Cult of Skaro are shown surviving, all other Daleks sucked into the abyss. I'm gonna give it 2.5
Stolen Earth= Davros and the Dalek Empire is back, Doctor Donna wipes out the Daleks. 3.5
Victory of the Daleks= whoops looks like Donna wasn't quite so successful but now they're back, they're surprisingly shiny and they're here to say.

So 3/3.5 times the Daleks have been wiped out. Yes, that is overdone. Hell, I would say that twice is overdoing it. Have the episode Dalek (because it was awesome), and then show some of the Daleks escaping from Bad Wolf and whammo, no need to waste time introducing why some small pocket has survived their extinction.


The Silence was one season, possibly two, the weeping angels have been in three episodes, the Vashta Nerada one, and the Ood were the enemy once (recurring yes, recurring enemy, no). They were good enemies (except the Ood), and they should have expanded atleast one of them into a recurring enemy, but they haven't. The Daleks are the only real recurring threat in Doctor Who, despite the numerous times the Doctor has said he wiped them all out.

The Silence are still a threat in Doctor Who, arguably they are the big bads of the series forcing the Doctor to work in the shadows (though part of my problem with season 7 is he's not doing that, at all). Ood have been the enemy in a few episodes, though largely as minions. Also for recurring threat you're forgetting the Cybermen, and I would say 3 episodes (actually 4 but that's because it was a two-parter) does make the Angels a recurring threat.


The Doctor has said he wiped them all since then.

Ok, I guess I can see I was unclear. When I said last 3 seasons I was including season 7 which is only half done. Season 5 re-introduces the Daleks in Victory of the Daleks which re-established their empire. They have not yet been destroyed again. Though they were made to forget the Doctor, it was stupid.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So 3/3.5 times the Daleks have been wiped out. Yes, that is overdone. Hell, I would say that twice is overdoing it. Have the episode Dalek (because it was awesome), and then show some of the Daleks escaping from Bad Wolf and whammo, no need to waste time introducing why some small pocket has survived their extinction.

You specified Davies remember? Moffat did it one last time and hasn't since. For that matter as we went from Victory to Asylum with all of a glorified cameo in between including IIRC a season without Daleks. It seems like not killing them off is a better way to ensure they stay away.

And seriously at this point its more tradition that the Daleks are all wiped out to reappear later... given that happened in their very first Classic appearence.

[Manga Shoggoth]

(Note that that incident was largely responsible for the popular culture myth Daleks couldn't climb stairs, and a mispercieved one at that, as the opening the Doctor was taunting them through was also one that was too small for a Dalek to fit through. They had been implied to have levitating capabilites off-screen for a long time, and also in non-TV media appeances, like comic adaptions (where they could afford to do it); in one instance as far back as the First Doctor's The Chase (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ljzlZrF3vU), a Dalek was shown to rise vertically out of sand (not saying it was well done, this being early Doctor Who, but it was done...!))

Good grief - well back in the Hartnell days then! I only really go as far back as the late Pertwee stories (although I have read earlier novelisations). The incident I was thinking about was set on a jungle planet, and had a dalek going up some form of chimney on an anti-gravity disk - two for the price of one...

[Androgeus]

Go watch Remembrance of the Daleks.

Or if you don't want to go searching
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120222145022/tardis/images/1/10/Dalek_climbs_stairs.jpg

[SuperPanda]

Or if you don't want to go searching
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120222145022/tardis/images/1/10/Dalek_climbs_stairs.jpg


You sir EL-a-VATE the quality of this conversation.

On the greater topic, I have a strong sense that the main difference will be if we are using the Necrons and Daleks as they are implied (intended/supposed) to exist within the context of their respective settings or if we are using the Necrons and Daleks as they are displayed (shown/actualized) in their settings?

Do we go on the fluff or the crunch of Necrons (and seeing as I'm somewhat weak on my warhammer credentials is there much discrepancy there)?

Do we use what the Daleks are definately capable of, or what they actually do? For being an implacable race of omnicidal geniuses they do seem to have idiot balls strapped into their cybernetics.

[Zahhak]

I take it you're not up to date with the last two seasons, then? (In which the Daleks have come back and cheerfully re-established their Empire, after solidly putting one over the Doctor? (Victory of the Daleks/Asylum of the Daleks?))

I don't remember the Daleks surviving Victory of the Daleks, and I don't even know where the Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks came from.


The Silence are still a threat in Doctor Who, arguably they are the big bads of the series forcing the Doctor to work in the shadows (though part of my problem with season 7 is he's not doing that, at all). Ood have been the enemy in a few episodes, though largely as minions. Also for recurring threat you're forgetting the Cybermen, and I would say 3 episodes (actually 4 but that's because it was a two-parter) does make the Angels a recurring threat.

I'll agree that the next time there is an overall plot, it will definitely revolve around the Silence, but as of yet we haven't seen them this season, so I'm relegating it to only one season. I cannot remember the name, but somewhere around the 6th or 7th Doctor there was some overall plot arc being built in a way somewhat similar to the Silence, and then something else came up and they just dropped it like it never happened. I'm not saying that that will happen with the Silence, just that it remains a possibility until we actually see the Silence again.

I wouldn't count the Ood as a recurring enemy because they've only actually been the enemy once. They have been antagonists otherwise, but only as mind-slimed slaves with no real control over there actions. I wouldn't call a necromancer controlled zombie an enemy, for example. I think the Cybermen have only been shown two or three times since the start of Nu Who where they were an enemy (instead of simply present, or getting their stuff rocked by the Doctor during the Demon's Run arc).

I take the position that two part-er episodes are one, so the Angels have been the enemy in three episodes, by my count. I think the Angels have the possibility to be a good recurring threat (despite my hatred of them as a Sci-Fi enemy), but I think their low episode present to total episode ratio is too low for me to consider them a truly recurring threat as of yet.


Ok, I guess I can see I was unclear. When I said last 3 seasons I was including season 7 which is only half done. Season 5 re-introduces the Daleks in Victory of the Daleks which re-established their empire. They have not yet been destroyed again. Though they were made to forget the Doctor, it was stupid.

Like I said, I don't remember the Daleks escaping in Victory of the Daleks. So, when they showed up in Asylum and there was no explination of where they came from my first response was "where the hell did they come from?"

[The Glyphstone]

Do we go on the fluff or the crunch of Necrons (and seeing as I'm somewhat weak on my warhammer credentials is there much discrepancy there)?


The problem with using Necron crunch as a guideline is that it's mean to be balanced, a word which here means 'intended to be of equal mechanical power to its competitors, but since it was written by Matt Ward, is not balanced at all.'

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't remember the Daleks surviving Victory of the Daleks, and I don't even know where the Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks came from.

The name wasn't a clue?

They got away cleaner then the Cult of Skaro ever did.


The problem with using Necron crunch as a guideline is that it's mean to be balanced, a word which here means 'intended to be of equal mechanical power to its competitors, but since it was written by Matt Ward, is not balanced at all.'

I was under the impression the general reaction was that it was.... actually not bad.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't remember the Daleks surviving Victory of the Daleks, and I don't even know where the Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks came from.


...

What?

That was like, the entire point of the episode... The old Daleks show up, con the Doctor into helping them open the Genesis Arc and creating a whole new paradigm of Daleks and then buggerin' off while the Doctor had to stop that guy explodinatin' London with the Dalek bomb in his chest.

In the meta-sense, that whole episode was set-up to undo the "Daleks are nearly wiped out" schtick precisely because it was getting silly.

(Not to mention the several Dalek cameos between Victory and Asylum.)

Or are you just taking a swipe at the (rather unfairly, I thought) maligned design of the new Daleks (which were floating around in the background still in Asylum)? I really can't tell.

[shadow_archmagi]

For being an implacable race of omnicidal geniuses they do seem to have idiot balls strapped into their cybernetics.

What did you think all those little spheres on the chassis were?

[Dienekes]

You specified Davies remember? Moffat did it one last time and hasn't since. For that matter as we went from Victory to Asylum with all of a glorified cameo in between including IIRC a season without Daleks. It seems like not killing them off is a better way to ensure they stay away.

And seriously at this point its more tradition that the Daleks are all wiped out to reappear later... given that happened in their very first Classic appearence.

Yes and Davies wiped the Daleks out 3 times. I think we're talking past each other I'm counting when they were declared to be extinct, I think you're counting when they came back unexpectedly.



Like I said, I don't remember the Daleks escaping in Victory of the Daleks. So, when they showed up in Asylum and there was no explination of where they came from my first response was "where the hell did they come from?"

You have a very specific definition of recurring. To me recurring just means, they recur. Angels are that, as are Cyberman. They have shown up as antagonists in more than 1 story. Cybermen have 4 off the top of my head, maybe more, not including when they were just background characters.

Also as has been pointed out, you're not remembering Victory of the Daleks very well. The point of the episode was that the show makers (hopefully) never have to waste time explaining how they came back again. Mind you Asylum of the Daleks left a whole bunch of other questions that needed answering (Like how did Skaro come back? Why do the Daleks need genius all of a sudden? Why were we/the Daleks supposed to be afraid of what appears to be the useless broken down models? And why where the Daleks able to be reprogrammed as though they were robots and not living creatures inside a tank shell?)

Though I think we've hijacked this thread enough. If you want to continue the conversation please post your response in the Doctor Who thread.

[Zahhak]

Or are you just taking a swipe at the (rather unfairly, I thought) maligned design of the new Daleks (which were floating around in the background still in Asylum)? I really can't tell.

No, apparently Victory is one of the episodes I purged from my memory for being a bunch of ridiculous donkey ****, and was mistaking "Victory of the Daleks" for a different episode.


You have a very specific definition of recurring. To me recurring just means, they recur. Angels are that, as are Cyberman. They have shown up as antagonists in more than 1 story. Cybermen have 4 off the top of my head, maybe more, not including when they were just background characters.

Then the Slivean are a recurring threat. And they've been in two episodes.

[Aotrs Commander]

No, apparently Victory is one of the episodes I purged from my memory for being a bunch of ridiculous donkey ****, and was mistaking "Victory of the Daleks" for a different episode.

Ah. You were probably confusing Victory with the end the Stolen Earth with Davros or something, then. (Which sort of thing Victory was supposed to stop happening again, because frankly killing off the Daleks was a bit daft, in my opinion.)

(Personally, that is one of my favourite episodes, period.)

[Zahhak]

Stolen Earth being another episode I've tried to purge from my brain for being ridiculous donkey ****.

[Aotrs Commander]

Stolen Earth being another episode I've tried to purge from my brain for being ridiculous donkey ****.

Perhaps you should just automatically purge any instances of episodes with Daleks and call it a day...?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yes and Davies wiped the Daleks out 3 times. I think we're talking past each other I'm counting when they were declared to be extinct, I think you're counting when they came back unexpectedly.

Ahh yes seems to be the case.


Ah. You were probably confusing Victory with the end the Stolen Earth with Davros or something, then. (Which sort of thing Victory was supposed to stop happening again, because frankly killing off the Daleks was a bit daft, in my opinion.)

(Personally, that is one of my favourite episodes, period.)

Well speaking of Davros he's apparently been back from the dead for 3 out of 5 of his appearances. So it seems to run in the family. Or maybe its something about Skaro since it seems to run in the planet too. And Time Lords. Heck for that matter I believe the Master has *technically* only regenerated properly once in the stoy, so him too.

And lets face it "impossible" and "permanent death" are some of those notions humans clearly cling to wrongly in the Whoniverse. Except that when viewed from a non-linear non-subjective perspective its more like ball of wib-... No wait that speech was for something else.

[shadow_archmagi]

Heck for that matter I believe the Master has *technically* only regenerated properly once in the stoy, so him too.

If I remember properly, he once fell into a volcano, and the entire cast watched him burn to a cinder, and then he pops up again they're like "????" and he's like "Sorry. Too awesome"

[Klose_the_Sith]

The problem with using Necron crunch as a guideline is that it's mean to be balanced, a word which here means 'intended to be of equal mechanical power to its competitors, but since it was written by Matt Ward, is not balanced at all.'

The real problem is that 40k fluff makes grandiose claims, but then the rules mechanics just turn them into a marginally better version of boring normal soldiers.

Regardless, I vote Daleks. Their power armour is probably better than Space Marines and being able to exterminate with one shot the things that they can, the widdle nekkies will soon just be vapour.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm voting Dalek. They can individually fly through space/time, which means that the enemy is effectively borked when it comes to space combat. Try firing enough to wipe out millions of tiny shielded people, and you will get stung to death. I would put them at an advantage in ground combat as well, since they can all fly and Necrons cannot.

Necrons have better weapons, and they can teleport between planets (webways), but I think the greater flexibility of the Daleks would let them win out. Or it would if either of them acted as smart as they are fluffed; Daleks tend to slowly hover forward and shoot at people.

[Zahhak]

Perhaps you should just automatically purge any instances of episodes with Daleks and call it a day...?

There was one or two that weren't complete lunacy.

[CthulhuEatYou]

Well, I read this part of the Necron Codex where it says they can basically erase planets and parts of the universe, but the consequences would be unimaginable. That and the fact the Doctor already exterminated the Daleks a alot of times, and everything in 40k is constructed to be just that much bigger, better and more badass in everyday way, than everything else. I'd say the Necrons stand quite a good chance. When this is said, I love both universes, but at the Daleks current state they aren't very threatening (That is, until a screenwriter decides to revive them yet again, for the hundredth time.) compared to trillions and trillions of Necrons. Both races has mind shattering technologies beyond imagination, which is almost impossible to compare.

[Fan]

I'm voting Dalek. They can individually fly through space/time, which means that the enemy is effectively borked when it comes to space combat. Try firing enough to wipe out millions of tiny shielded people, and you will get stung to death. I would put them at an advantage in ground combat as well, since they can all fly and Necrons cannot.

Necrons have better weapons, and they can teleport between planets (webways), but I think the greater flexibility of the Daleks would let them win out. Or it would if either of them acted as smart as they are fluffed; Daleks tend to slowly hover forward and shoot at people.

Assuming personal weapons are capable of penetrating Necron shielding, which would require individual Dalek weaponry to be in the gigaton through Terraton range.

Which it isn't, as the highest showing I've seen for Dalek anti Personal Weaponry is Anti Aircraft by our scale, and Necrodermis is SIGNIFICANTLY better at resisting energy attacks, and is self repairing, and it's adaptive.

So the "death by a thousand stings" philosophy doesn't work against Necrons. As that just gives them time to have the necrodermis of their Starships adapt to that energy, and eventually become so resistant as to be nigh immune.

That said, Necrons also field Sepulchre's (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sepulchre#.UJ1bLYfAeSo) on their ships, psychic emitters that are all but designed to counter that very idea, and an attack to which as far as I'm aware, the Daleks have no defense.