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ProudGrognard
2012-11-19, 08:39 AM
Dear co-forumites,

I have been wondering for some time now about how clerics in PF, and generally in d20, can be reimagined. I am not talking here about their power level, the CODzilla thing or anything like that. I am talking about how their iconic role (and thus, the powers they wield) can be reexamined.

The clerics, back in the Basic DnD times, was the armored warrior of the faith (a la Knight Templars), and this is why they were armed and armored. To that, the various reiterations of DnD have attached a kind of Soul Magic: Healing, Revival, Buffs etc etc. Today, however, the holy warrior archetype has been taken quite thoroughly by the paladin. Thus, the game now has two armored holy warriors. I think that is a bit crowded, and that the priest can, and should, be tweaked a bit towards another direction.

Because I am not a fan of major revisions, I aim to go for small changes, as much as I can. Clergy, in history and myth, where learned men toiling away at monasteries or teaching at medieval universities. They were also political animals and strived to be at the center of the communities they served. I think that the class can accommodate such characteristics, by emphasizing their spellcasting, de-emphasizing their martial capabilities and adding a set of abilities that would deal with interaction, knowledge or what have you. And it is at that point that I would like to ask for help.

I propose the following changes:

EDIT: Below is a complete proposal
-WP: Only simple and the deity's holy weapon
-Armor: Light
-HD: d6
-Skill points: 4
-Class skills: The same plus Intimidate, Bluff (the political animal thingy) and two skills relevant to the deity's ethos. For example, a God of Travel could give Knowledge: Geography and Ride.
- Some abilities having to do with interaction, influence or bolstering. Bardic abilities come to mind, but I would like something more unique. Or it could be something like an aura, since clerics have a God watching them rather closely. Auras could be again relevant to the Deity. Help anybody?

Cleric

Hit Die: d8

Starting Wealth:3d6 10 gp (average 105 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. (Note here the slightly less starting money. No expensive armor, so...)

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis),
Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility)
(Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int) plus Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (the last two are due to the political nature of the class)

Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As mage (But see Weapons of the Faith below)

Saves: Will Good, Ref and Fort Bad

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple
weapons, light armor and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also
proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.

1st level) Weapons of the faith (Ex): A cleric has received additional training with the favored weapon of his deity. With that weapon, his BAB progresses as a Rogue.

Aura (Ex):A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see detect evil for details).
The cleric 's aura is also marked by the domains of the deity he/she follows. Depending on the deity 's domains of influence, the cleric 's aura gives bonuses to certain actions. Unless otherwise noted, the cleric can, as a swift action, let his companions and himself receive these bonuses for a number of rounds equal to his Wis modifier + 1 for every for 4 levels he has. He can initiate this aura a number of times per day equal to his Cha bonus+ 1 for every five levels he has. Once initiated, the auras persist until their duration.
A cleric starts by knowing one aura, which must be associated with one of the domains he has chosen. He learns one additional aura at level 8. At level 15, he can have both auras active at the same time. The aura extends to a 30ft circle, plus 5ft for every five levels the cleric has. Clerics can identify another cleric 's ethos if they experience his aura and make a DC 15 Knowledge (Religion) check.

Artifice: This aura is always active. It gives a 10% reduction to all costs associated with construction of magic items. It also gives a 10% reduction to the time needed to construct it. Associated domains: Artifice, Magic, Rune

Aggression: The aura gives a +1 to weapon damage. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Destruction, Good, Evil, War, Strength

Allure: This aura gives a +2 to all saving throws against spells of the
charm subschool. This becomes +3 at 5th, +4 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Charm, Glory

Protection: This aura gives DR1/magic from all weapon damage. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Charm, Community

Confusion: This aura gives a -2 to all Will saving throws to the cleric's opponents. This becomes -3 at 5th, -4 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Madness, Void

Darkness: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura lessens
the range of any source of illumination within its radius per 5 feet per 5
levels of the cleric (minimum 5). Also, all penalties to rolls due to lack
of illumination are greater by 1.This becomes 2 at 8th and 3 at 16th level.
Associated domains: Darkness, Death

Elemental dominance: The aura gives a DR2/ to all elemental damage
associated with the god's element, as well as the element which is opposite
to it (Fire and Water, Earth and Air). This becomes DR4 at 5th level, DR6 at
10th etc. Associated domains: Air, Fire, Water, Earth

Endurance: This aura is always active. The cleric's companions experience all non magical temperatures beneath -5 Celsius as -5 Celcius and all temperatures beyond 40 Celcius as 40 Celcius. They gain a +4 to all checks to avoid, dehydration, altitude sickness etc etc. Associated domains: Travel, Weather

Expression: This aura is always active. It gives a +1 bonus to all Perform skill checks and a +1 bonus to all sonic based attacks. The bonus becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Charm, Community, Glory

Freedom: This aura gives a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells that hinder mobility. If the spell does not allow a saving throw, the aura
enables one, but without the bonus, and the recipient of the benefit does
not feel the aura 's effect for the duration of the day. The bonus becomes
+2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Freedom, Chaos, Liberation

Guile: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis
modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura gives a +1
to Perception, Disable device, Stealth and Escape artist. These becomes +2
at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Trickery, Liberation

Healing: This aura gives Fast Healing 1. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. The HPs gained cannot put the recipient at more than 75% of his total. Associated domains: Healing, Sun

Ill-chance: Once per activation of the aura, the cleric 's enemies subtract 1 to a roll they make. This is added after the roll is done.This bonus
becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Madness, Chaos

Knowledge: This aura is always active. It gives +1 to all knowledge checks. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Knowledge, Rune

Light: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura extends the range of any source of illumination within its radius per 5 feet per 5 levels of the cleric. Also, all penalties due to lack of illumination are lessened by 1.This becomes 2 at 8th and 3 at 16th level. Associated domains: Sun, Glory

Luck: Once per activation of the aura, the cleric 's companions can add +1 to a roll they made. This is added after the roll is done.This bonus becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Luck, Chaos

Magic: This aura gives DR1/ to all damage from spells. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Magic, Protection

Might:The aura gives a +1 to attack rolls. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Strength, War, Good, Evil

Misdirection: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 1 minutes per Wis modifier of the cleric + 1 minute for every level the cleric has.This aura gives a -1 to initiative and Perception checks to all the cleric 's enemies.This becomes -2 at 5th, -3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Madness, Void

Resilience: This aura gives DR1/magic from all weapon damage. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Protection, Plant

Resistance: This aura gives a +1 to all saving throws.This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Protection, Nobility

Negotiation: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura gives a +1 to Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff and Sense Motive checks. These becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Community, Nobility, Glory

Perception: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 1 minutes per Wis modifier of the cleric + 1 minute for every level the cleric has.This aura
gives a +1 to initiative and Perception checks.This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Trickery, War

Purity: This aura gives a +2 to all saving throws against spells that target specific alignments. This becomes +4 at 5th, +6 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Good, Evil, Chaos, Law

Skill: This aura is always active. It gives a 10% reduction to all costs associated with construction of mundane it ems. It also gives a 10% reduction to the time needed to construct it. Associated domains: Community, Artifice

Travel: This aura is always active. The priest's companions travel 10% more each day. They also gain a +1 to all checks related to their travel (weather etc). This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Weather, Travel

True Death: This aura is always active. All companions of the cleric that are below 0 hp are automatically stabilized. Also, 1 is added to any damage dealt to undead. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Death, Repose

Spells, Orisons and Channel Energy: Unchanged

There is also a spell that I would like to submit, for the cleric to become more of a warrior, of he so chooses.

Warrior of faith

School transmutation; Level cleric 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF
Range self
Target self
Duration 1 min
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes

As long as he wields his deity 's favorite weapon, the cleric imbues himseld with divine power, making him a powerful warrior. When attacking with his deity 's favorite weapon, he substitutes his Wisdom modifier for his Strength in melee attacks or for his Dexterity in ranged. He also substitutes his Charisma modifier for his Strength when calculating damage.

ErrantX
2012-11-19, 10:28 AM
I propose the following changes:
-WP: Only simple and the deity's holy weapon
-Armor: Light
-HD: d6
-Skill points: 4
-Class skills: The same plus Intimidate, Bluff (the political animal thingy) and two skills relevant to the deity's ethos. For example, a God of Travel could give Knowledge: Geography and Ride.
- Some abilities having to do with interaction, influence or bolstering. Bardic abilities come to mind, but I would like something more unique. Or it could be something like an aura, since clerics have a God watching them rather closely. Auras could be again relevant to the Deity. Help anybody?

The trick with this is to not step on the toes of the bard or paladin, both of which are more suited for those sort of role as influence or bolstering or use with auras. I would take more of stance from Oracle or Sorcerer in this manner, have each core diety have a list of cleric abilities that they either gain like bloodline abilities or a list they can pick from like an Oracle revelations. These divine gifts or boons as they could be called would then be specific to the individual gods, thus making clerics of different gods way different.

-X

Quorothorn
2012-11-19, 12:41 PM
Well, the Cloistered Cleric variant certainly springs to mind (I've always had an odd attachment to that one, to the point of occasionally pretending Redcloak is one). They have poor BAB, a d6 HD, 6 skill points a level (plus some extra class skills: Decipher Script and Speak Language), Knowledge as a free third Domain (bringing with it all Knowledge skills as in-class), Clerical Lore (same as bardic lore), a few extra spells for their list, and can only use light armour/simple weapons. Seems a bit like what you're going for?

The Aura idea could be very interesting, I think. "Standard" Clerics of an aligned deity just have a powerful Aura of Law/Chaos/Evil/Good; I think there's definite possibilities to make that more in-depth--though ErrantX makes a fair point of possible overlap with the Bard and Pal.

Amechra
2012-11-19, 01:07 PM
In my opinion, we might as well drop the cleric, bump up the paladin a bit, and use domain adepts for our friends the priests around time.

ProudGrognard
2012-11-25, 03:49 PM
I came here to resurrect a thread I thought went nowhere, and I find out that I got some very interesting responses which I got no notifications for!:smallfrown:

So, I think I have a specific proposal to make. I took the aura thing to its conclusion and I came with the following proposal. I would very much appreciate your feedback!

Cleric

Hit Die: d8

Starting Wealth:3d6 10 gp (average 105 gp.) In addition, each character begins play with an outfit worth 10 gp or less. (Note here the slightly less starting money. No expensive armor, so...)

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis),
Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility)
(Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics
(Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int) plus
Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Local) (the last two are due to the political nature of the class)

Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

BAB: As mage (But see Weapons of the Faith below)

Saves: Will Good, Ref and Fort Bad

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple
weapons, light armor and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also
proficient with the favored weapon of their deities.

1st level) Weapons of the faith (Ex): A cleric has received additional training with
the favored weapon of his deity. With that weapon, his BAB progresses as a
Rogue.

Aura (Ex):A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a
particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity's alignment (see
detect evil for details).
The cleric 's aura is also marked by the domains of the deity he/she
follows. Depending on the deity 's domains of influence, the cleric 's aura
gives bonuses to certain actions. Unless otherwise noted, the cleric can, as a swift action, let his companions and himself receive these bonuses for a number of rounds equal to his Wis modifier + 1 for every for 4 levels he has. He can initiate this aura a number of times per day equal to his Cha bonus+ 1 for every five levels he has. Once initiated, the auras persist until their duration.
A cleric starts by knowing one aura, which must be associated with one of
the domains he has chosen. He learns one additional aura at level 8. At
level 15, he can have both auras active at the same time. The aura extends
to a 30ft circle, plus 5ft for every five levels the cleric has. Clerics can identify another cleric 's ethos if they experience his aura and make a DC 15 Knowledge (Religion) check.

Artifice: This aura is always active. It gives a 10% reduction to all costs associated with construction of magic items. It also gives a 10% reduction to the time needed to construct it. Associated domains: Artifice, Magic, Rune

Aggression: The aura gives a +1 to weapon damage. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Destruction, Good, Evil, War, Strength

Allure: This aura gives a +2 to all saving throws against spells of the
charm subschool. This becomes +3 at 5th, +4 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Charm, Glory

Protection: This aura gives DR1/magic from all weapon damage. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Charm, Community

Confusion: This aura gives a -2 to all Will saving throws to the cleric's opponents. This becomes -3 at 5th, -4 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Madness, Void

Darkness: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura lessens
the range of any source of illumination within its radius per 5 feet per 5
levels of the cleric (minimum 5). Also, all penalties to rolls due to lack
of illumination are greater by 1.This becomes 2 at 8th and 3 at 16th level.
Associated domains: Darkness, Death

Elemental dominance: The aura gives a DR2/ to all elemental damage
associated with the god's element, as well as the element which is opposite
to it (Fire and Water, Earth and Air). This becomes DR4 at 5th level, DR6 at
10th etc. Associated domains: Air, Fire, Water, Earth

Endurance: This aura is always active. The cleric's companions experience all non magical temperatures beneath -5 Celsius as -5 Celcius and all temperatures beyond 40 Celcius as 40 Celcius. They gain a +4 to all checks to avoid, dehydration, altitude sickness etc etc. Associated domains: Travel, Weather

Expression: This aura is always active. It gives a +1 bonus to all Perform skill checks and a +1 bonus to all sonic based attacks. The bonus becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Charm, Community, Glory

Freedom: This aura gives a +2 bonus to saving throws against spells that hinder mobility. If the spell does not allow a saving throw, the aura
enables one, but without the bonus, and the recipient of the benefit does
not feel the aura 's effect for the duration of the day. The bonus becomes
+2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Freedom, Chaos, Liberation

Guile: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis
modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura gives a +1
to Perception, Disable device, Stealth and Escape artist. These becomes +2
at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Trickery, Liberation

Healing: This aura gives Fast Healing 1. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. The HPs gained cannot put the recipient at more than 75% of his total. Associated domains: Healing, Sun

Ill-chance: Once per activation of the aura, the cleric 's enemies subtract 1 to a roll they make. This is added after the roll is done.This bonus
becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Madness, Chaos

Knowledge: This aura is always active. It gives +1 to all knowledge checks. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Knowledge, Rune

Light: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis
modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura extends
the range of any source of illumination within its radius per 5 feet per 5
levels of the cleric. Also, all penalties due to lack of illumination are
lessened by 1.This becomes 2 at 8th and 3 at 16th level. Associated domains: Sun, Glory

Luck: Once per activation of the aura, the cleric 's companions can add +1 to a roll they made. This is added after the roll is done.This bonus becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains:Luck, Chaos

Magic: This aura gives DR1/ to all damage from spells. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Magic, Protection

Might:The aura gives a +1 to attack rolls. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Strength, War, Good, Evil

Misdirection: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 1 minutes per Wis modifier of the cleric + 1 minute for every level the cleric has.This aura
gives a -1 to initiative and Perception checks to all the cleric 's enemies.This becomes -2 at 5th, -3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Madness, Void

Resilience: This aura gives DR1/magic from all weapon damage. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Protection, Plant

Resistance: This aura gives a +1 to all saving throws.This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Protection, Nobility

Negotiation: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 10 minutes per Wis modifier + + 10 minutes for every level the cleric has. This aura gives a +1 to Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff and Sense Motive checks. These becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Community, Nobility, Glory

Perception: Contrary to other auras, this is active for 1 minutes per Wis modifier of the cleric + 1 minute for every level the cleric has.This aura
gives a +1 to initiative and Perception checks.This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Trickery, War

Purity: This aura gives a +2 to all saving throws against spells that target specific alignments. This becomes +4 at 5th, +6 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Good, Evil, Chaos, Law

Skill: This aura is always active. It gives a 10% reduction to all costs associated with construction of mundane it ems. It also gives a 10% reduction to the time needed to construct it. Associated domains: Community, Artifice

Travel: This aura is always active. The priest's companions travel 10% more each day. They also gain a +1 to all checks related to their travel (weather etc). This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Weather, Travel

True Death: This aura is always active. All companions of the cleric that are below 0 hp are automatically stabilized. Also, 1 is added to any damage dealt to undead. This becomes +2 at 5th, +3 at 10th etc. Associated domains: Death, Repose

Spells, Orisons and Channel Energy: Unchanged

Also, a spell to make him more of a warrior, if need be.

Warrior of faith

School transmutation; Level cleric 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF
Range self
Target self
Duration 1 min
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes

As long as he wields his deity 's favorite weapon, the cleric imbues himself with divine power, making him a powerful warrior. When attacking with his deity 's favorite weapon, he substitutes his Wisdom modifier for his Strength in melee attacks or for his Dexterity in ranged. He also substitutes his Charisma modifier for his Strength when calculating damage.

ProudGrognard
2012-11-25, 03:53 PM
The trick with this is to not step on the toes of the bard or paladin, both of which are more suited for those sort of role as influence or bolstering or use with auras. I would take more of stance from Oracle or Sorcerer in this manner, have each core diety have a list of cleric abilities that they either gain like bloodline abilities or a list they can pick from like an Oracle revelations. These divine gifts or boons as they could be called would then be specific to the individual gods, thus making clerics of different gods way different.

-X

Well, the bard has the skills and a different spell casting thing. I tried to make the auras substantial, but not giving bonuses that would top that of the bard. I based them, more or less, on those of the dragon shaman.

Vorr
2012-11-25, 10:22 PM
You want a less combat cleric, right? But did you notice most of your aura powers are all about combat? A step in the wrong direction? Protection aura gives a DR vs weapons, and that's great for a front line battle cleric, but no help at all to a cleric trying to protect anything other then their own hit points. Magic aura just gives a DR vs spells. Picture a cleric of Mystra(goddess of magic) how can take less damage from a hostile spell vs one that could say do something more with magic then just take less damage in combat.

I'd suggest: Unique abilities per god. Each god is different, and so should the clerics be.

More abilities based around things other then pure combat.

Modifying abilities and spells, per cleric, by usage. So a god of undead would grant bonuses when you did things for undead, but penalize you if you did things for the living.

ProudGrognard
2012-11-26, 01:46 AM
You want a less combat cleric, right? But did you notice most of your aura powers are all about combat? A step in the wrong direction? Protection aura gives a DR vs weapons, and that's great for a front line battle cleric, but no help at all to a cleric trying to protect anything other then their own hit points. Magic aura just gives a DR vs spells. Picture a cleric of Mystra(goddess of magic) how can take less damage from a hostile spell vs one that could say do something more with magic then just take less damage in combat.

I'd suggest: Unique abilities per god. Each god is different, and so should the clerics be.

More abilities based around things other then pure combat.

Modifying abilities and spells, per cleric, by usage. So a god of undead would grant bonuses when you did things for undead, but penalize you if you did things for the living.

Actually, I do not want less of a battle cleric. I want a cleric that will not be the same thematically like the paladin. In ODD, clerics were described as members of orders like the Templars, this is why the had the armor and weapon proficiencies. Today, where the paladin does that, the cleric is too similar thematically. And the actual archetype of the priest, the wise mystic which knows his community, is missing. This is why I wanted to address.

However, not having armor, WP and damage spells does not mean that in combat you do nothing. As the bard shows for example. Also note, that almost a quarter of the auras I put up there have nothing to do with combat.

Finally, it would be cool for each god to do something singular with the priest 's auras. The thing is, Gods change from campaign to campaign. Thjis is why I associated auras with domains. Also, coming up with 25 different unique abilities that would be balanced is too much.