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Debihuman
2012-11-29, 05:01 PM
Every now and then I see something that piques my interest, Lately, it's been herbalism. There's a LOT of available products out there already. Bastion Press's Alchemy and Herbalism was my first source book. It gave me some ideas but I didn't like adding a new skill. Knowledge (Herbalism) seems like a subset of Knowledge (Nature) and bloats the system. Yes, I can see a Profession (Herbalist) but profession skills just mean you can earn a living off your skill (rather than resorting to begging, stealing and adventuring).

Still, there's not much that helps a PC party without magical healing. You use alchemy to make antitoxin, so why not something simple that doesn't require a whole book or subsystem to help in the short term?

I'm not crazy about magical herbs. To me, herbs are strictly non-magical used for flavoring foods and used to make non-magical medicines. Ah, see that's the problem with fantasy games. Most of the time, herbalism focuses on the magical nature of herbs. Sure, there is a place for that. However, the non-magical aspects of herbs are often overlooked. I also didn't want to step on the cleric's healing. A cleric's healing effects are immediate. To my mind, the natural herbal version of healing takes longer than magical healing and isn't as powerful but should be a nice addition.

Herbal Poultice [non-magical herbalism]

Once the proper herbal ingredients have been harvested (a successful DC 10 Knowledge (Nature) check ensures that the proper herbs have been gathered, an act that takes a minimum of 1 hour and can take much longer if the requisite plants are inaccessible), anyone can create a healing poultice. Creating a healing poultice requires one hourís time and a successful DC 15 Craft (herbalism) or Profession (herbalist) check. 1

Applying the poultice properly to a wound is Healing check (DC 15). Once applied, it takes 8 hours to take effect although it does not require rest while the healing takes place. If successful, the poultice heals 1d4 points of either lethal or nonlethal damage.

This is in addition to any other healing that may take place such as a magical or natural healing. If the applying character has 5 or more ranks in Craft (herbalism), the applier gains a +2 synergy bonus on healing checks to apply poultices. No character can benefit from the effects of more than 1 poultice per day.

A typical healing poultice can be made at almost no cost (it is just time intensive), but is sold at vastly inflated prices (usually for 5-8 gp, depending on the market). A healing poultice remains fresh for one month after which it loses its potency.

1 If the DM allows other professions such as healers, midwives, etc. those with relevant skills can also make and use healing poultices.

Debby

edited for clarity and to keep it priced better.

Deepbluediver
2012-11-29, 05:21 PM
I'm always in the mood for alternatives to the Clerics box-O'-bandaids (especially since my cleric fix strips many of them of that capability).
But there are a couple issues with this that pop out at me though.

Generaly speaking, I'm not sure this item does enough healing given it's cost and the time it takes to be effective, and it seems like it would rapidly lose it's value at higher levels because of it's low absolute value in healing done.

To start with, I would reconsider how long you need for it to work it's magic. Changing it to 8 or 12 hours would allow injured creatures to slap one on before bedtime, and then be ready to go again by morning. I know you said you wanted to differentiate between this and other forms of magical healing, but as it stands, it's the kind of thing NPC's use and adventurers don't even bother with.
Characters are supposed to (and correct me if I'm wrong) regain 1 HP/level every 24 hours anyway, so their natural vigor almost eclipses the "first aid" past level 3.

Allowing some one to apply more than one at a time might help. For example, you could apply two to each leg, one to each arm, 2 to the back and torso, and one to the head, which would provide a fair amount of healing, provided your target doesn't mind being mummified in bandages. :smallbiggrin:

Secondly, assuming you want this to stay useful for the length of a campaign, then you should also come with some improved versions that do more than 1d4 healing. If you've got an entire village of level 1 NPC commoners then sure, I'd expect the village healer/elder/witch/shaman to keep a basket of these lying around, but I doubt most PC's would bother with either the expense or the bulk.


If I was going to use something like this in a game, I'd probably alter it so that the poultice did something like restore 1 HP per hour worn, and it's useful for a given amount of time (like 10 or 12 hours). If it started to be a problem, I'd think up overdose rules.

Yitzi
2012-11-29, 06:37 PM
It costs as much as a charge from a wand of CLW, is a bit less than half as effective, has a limited shelf life, has a limit on use, and is slow to work. Probably not worth it when wands of CLW are at all available.

Debihuman
2012-11-29, 06:48 PM
Natural Healing

With a full nightís rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.

If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.

I wanted something to augment that without it being magical in nature. A poultice takes 24 hours to work, but you don't have to rest while you wait for it as you have to do with natural healing. You slap on a poultice and in 24 hours you heal 1d4 points whether or not you rest. It's more like delayed healing while you wait for the medicine to work. You still benefit from natural healing of course and from magical healing too if you have access. It's very much a niche item, but I think it does the job properly.

An item which cures 1 hp/hour would be far more expensive and should have a cap or you're in danger of it becoming better than potion of curing light wounds unless it is more expensive and is that really worth it?

Of course, you can always have magical poultices that have a variety of effects. Those probably require some sort of spellcraft check. The specifics depend on which spells are mimicked. Again, there needs to be some balance to this.

Debby

Debihuman
2012-11-29, 06:54 PM
I had wondered if making the cost 10 gp instead of 15 gp was too cheap. what do people think?

Debby

P.S.. Sorry for the double post but when I tried to edit my previous post, I got a white screen. This is happening far too often :smallsigh: I've previously brought this up on the appropriate forum.

Zale
2012-11-29, 07:11 PM
I honestly don't think people will bother no matter how cheap you make it.

A day for 1d4 hp is far, far to long, when you have alternatives.

Amechra
2012-11-29, 08:52 PM
You could have it increase rates of natural healing.

The thing about poultices is that they are, well, not that easy to represent in d&d.

They don't actually heal anything, they just keep wounds sterile. And since d&d doesn't have rules for wounds getting infected...

ForzaFiori
2012-11-29, 08:58 PM
What if poultices allowed you to heal naturally without rest, and if you do decide to rest, double the HP you heal from it. This keeps them useful at all levels, and still requires time to take place (you heal naturally every day, so it would keep the 24 hr period).

Something like:
Once applied, a poultice doubles any natural healing that occurs during the next 24 hours, or until it is removed. If no natural healing occurs (and the poultice remains applied) for 24 hours, the creature may heal hit points as if it had obtained a full nights sleep (1/hd, I believe).

That way, if you wear it and push yourself, you get 1hp/hd. Sleep normally with one, 2hp/hd. Spend all day resting with one, 4hp/hd. Makes resting that much quicker and they'll become incredibly useful if time is of the essence.

Grūmble
2012-11-29, 09:38 PM
I love the idea. Unfortunately magic is the cure-all for every purpose. In a lower magic or no magic setting the use of poultices and herbs and things that aren't all hand-wavey is the way to go. I think the d20 Iron Kingdoms setting limited magic, raising the level requirement of healing spells and removing resurrection altogether.

Either way your idea of a poultice is great and full of fluffy goodness.

Steamflogger
2012-11-30, 10:49 PM
Nah, Iron kingdoms added a limit to the amount of healing a caster could safely deal before it got all crazy and dangerous, and resurrections were unreliable, dangerous, and expensive (and actually involved dealing with the deity granting the resurrection). They did have a bunch of poultices and curatives though, let me see if I can find my copy...

Yeah, they healed a small amount, then a larger amount one minute later, like a poison. Sometimes they had side effects (usually ability damage) that you would have to save against with the secondary healing. They did a bunch of stuff with the healing, like healing non-lethal, converting lethal to non-lethal, removing fatigue etc. You might want to have a look at them, assuming you plan on using healing items in a low magic setting.

Debihuman
2012-12-01, 10:59 AM
The poultices don't require you to rest at all. You slap it on, go about your business and in 24 hours you gain back 1d4 hit points. Should you choose to rest you can also gain natural healing. Unlike magical healing, poultices require time to work.

Debby

lunar2
2012-12-01, 01:59 PM
the point is that 1d4 HP over 24 hours is worthless. a charge from a CLW wand costs less, heals more, and does it immediately. while separating this from magic is great and all, it still has to be balanced against magic, because that is what it is competing against.

forza had the best idea. wearing a poultice raises natural healing by 1 step (1/HD for no rest, 2HD/for normal rest, 4/HD for complete rest). it's simple, effective, and still doesn't look like magic. it even makes sense. clean wounds heal faster than dirty wounds, and a poultice keeps the wounds clean.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-12-01, 03:13 PM
I agree with the others, 1d4 after 24 hours is useless. Even if you don't need to rest.

Perhaps change it to:

"Every hour for the next 24 hours you recover a number of hit points equal to the applier's Heal check -15, minimum of 2. However, if you are attacked and receive damage, there is an 80% chance the poultice will be destroyed."

Debihuman
2012-12-01, 05:11 PM
This is supposed to be a stop gap healing choice and is not supposed to compete with a cure light spell. It's better than natural healing at low levels and supplements natural healing at higher levels and you can use magical healing with this as well. It's not meant to supersede magical healing. Compared to a potion of cure light, this is weaker but also significantly cheaper. It also has the benefit of working in anti-magic field.

Debby

Sgt. Cookie
2012-12-01, 05:36 PM
The issue is, it's not better than natural healing. Even at low levels. The price is too high for low level parties, and at and beyond level 3 natural healing is faster and more reliable. Knock the price way down, to about 2 gp, and change the time to eight hours, then it might be more useful. As is, 1d4 after 24 hours is not worth 10 gp, let alone 15.

lunar2
2012-12-01, 05:48 PM
This is supposed to be a stop gap healing choice and is not supposed to compete with a cure light spell. It's better than natural healing at low levels and supplements natural healing at higher levels and you can use magical healing with this as well. It's not meant to supersede magical healing. Compared to a potion of cure light, this is weaker but also significantly cheaper. It also has the benefit of working in anti-magic field.

Debby

firsst off, this is more in line with a scroll than a potion, since it requires a skill check to use. second, nobody in their right mind will pay 15 GP now for 2.5HP tomorrow when they can pay 12.5 gp for 5.5 HP now.

weaker, delayed effect, and more expensive does not a viable option make. if i'm so desperate for HPs that i would need to use one of these, i'll just leave the dungeon. even at level 1, i'm not wasting my precious gold on a sub-par option like this when better options exist.

you either have to make the item powerful enough that it's actually worth the GP it costs, or you can expect it not to be used. people don't buy stop-gap measures, they buy the good stuff. make this cost about 1 gp, remove the skill check to use, and allow them to stack and this might actually see use.

Yitzi
2012-12-01, 07:22 PM
firsst off, this is more in line with a scroll than a potion, since it requires a skill check to use. second, nobody in their right mind will pay 15 GP now for 2.5HP tomorrow when they can pay 12.5 gp for 5.5 HP now.

12.5 gp assumes a cleric with Scribe Scroll and the time and XP to burn on it. Otherwise it's 25 (or 15 from a wand).

locutus
2012-12-01, 09:19 PM
I would tend to adjust the price WAY down. Adventurers in dungeons have access to the good stuff, and probably won't use herbal medicine, or ANY form of mundane medicine, because they can afford magic.

But anyone with a little skill can make a herbalism check, or go see the village healer. This is the medicine of choice for the unleveled commoners. They can't spend a years wage on healing. I'd make the price 1sp, or a days pay. You got injured on the job, it didn't kill you, so put this on and call me in the morning.

For anything other than a straight gash, I'd say it needs an herbalism roll to apply correctly/choose the correct herbs.

but yeah, if you're the village healer, and a bunch of adventurers roll into town, they suddenly cost 15gp or whatever. Fleece 'em.

TuggyNE
2012-12-02, 05:55 AM
I would tend to adjust the price WAY down. Adventurers in dungeons have access to the good stuff, and probably won't use herbal medicine, or ANY form of mundane medicine, because they can afford magic.

But anyone with a little skill can make a herbalism check, or go see the village healer. This is the medicine of choice for the unleveled commoners. They can't spend a years wage on healing. I'd make the price 1sp, or a days pay. You got injured on the job, it didn't kill you, so put this on and call me in the morning.

For anything other than a straight gash, I'd say it needs an herbalism roll to apply correctly/choose the correct herbs.

but yeah, if you're the village healer, and a bunch of adventurers roll into town, they suddenly cost 15gp or whatever. Fleece 'em.

I fully second this post. (Relevant OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html).)

Ashtagon
2012-12-02, 07:44 AM
Since we are discussing poultices anyway, I think there is an implication that it's for a low magic setting in which magic marts don't generally exist.

I'd cheerfully go for the "add one step to your natural healing rate" way of resolving the effects. This will of course stack with the "long term care" aspect of the Heal skill.

Most commoners will just get the "long term care" from a healer. Rich folk will get the poultice for the five-star treatment in addition to long term care. Very rich folk will get potions of CLW.

I'd also allow anyone with the Heal skill to craft these. A character with the Survival skill in an appropriate environment could probably gather the raw materials (herbs and the like) to avoid even the gp cost of making these.

Call it DC 15 (high quality item) for crafting purposes. Assuming the base "retail" price is 6 gp, that's 4 gp worth of crafting keyed off the Heal skill, plus either 2 gp cash or 2 gp worth of crafting keyed off the Survival skill.

Debihuman
2012-12-02, 10:40 AM
Since these fall in the zone between minor cure light and cure light spells I've dropped the price to 11 gp. This makes it a lot more affordable at low levels.

At higher levels this is what you can slap on your henchmen and cohorts when they are injured. I'm thinking you could stick on on an injured animal as well rather than using a more costly item on them.

Debby

Garryl
2012-12-02, 03:23 PM
Given the time period, Lesser Vigor would be a more apt comparison (although still several orders of magnitude away). For 15g for 1 charge from a wand, you heal 11 hp over a little over a minute.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-12-03, 11:50 AM
I don't mean any offense Debby, but this needs to be said.

These are poor. Very, very poor. They are completely useless. No one in their right mind would bother with these. It seems that you are overestimating the value of 1d4 hit points. Even at low levels, 1d4 after 24 hours is utterly useless.

11 GP is far too expensive. If the idea was for starting characters to buy these, then you should really look up average starting gold. Because buying just ONE poultice costs all to one fifteenth of a character's starting gold.

The word I would like to use to describe these would be filtered.

Deepbluediver
2012-12-03, 01:30 PM
I've mostly been avoiding the debate over the cost because IMO, the WBL chart is so frelling bjorked beyond all reason that balancing items in terms of gold is nearly impossible. I've always preferred games where characters have access to whatever level of gear is necessary for their current challenge, and where merchants pay reasonable prices for your old cast-off equipment (and don't give you 100,000 gold just because your sword has "+5" on it).

I assumed that these could be manufactured for little (a few silver) or no cost, and would be used, like I said, by NPC's who didn't have access to other forms of healing magic. There needs to be a more powerful version for players if you really want them to be a factor in your campaigns.

So essentially I think the balance question is: what scenario are we utilizing these in? As the other posters have pointed out, any other form of healing is quicker and usually cheaper, so these would only be used in the total absence of any other kind of healing ability.

lunar2
2012-12-03, 02:35 PM
12.5 gp assumes a cleric with Scribe Scroll and the time and XP to burn on it. Otherwise it's 25 (or 15 from a wand).

actually, i fudged the math on a wand charge. i should have said 15 gp. i just mentioned scrolls because debby was comparing it to potions, and this is more in line witha scroll because it needs a skill check to use.


Since these fall in the zone between minor cure light and cure light spells I've dropped the price to 11 gp. This makes it a lot more affordable at low levels.

At higher levels this is what you can slap on your henchmen and cohorts when they are injured. I'm thinking you could stick on on an injured animal as well rather than using a more costly item on them.

Debby

again. it doesn't matter what you're planning on using this for, it's not cost effective. the only people who would actually use a healing item this weak are 1st level commoners and experts, because they have fewer HP than an average CLW would heal. and they would only use this item if it is priced for them to use, otherwise, they'll just suffer the wound for 1 more day. 1 GP is the upper limit on a reasonable price for this kind of item, because it will not see use by PCs with any kind of sense at all. we're not even talking about INT 30 wizards, here, we're talking about the average mom smart enough to use coupons and buy store brands at the grocery store.

Debihuman
2012-12-03, 03:34 PM
This is why these are relatively easy to make and use. Even a 1st level PC could make one. It costs nothing for the ingredients since the ingredients are common healing plants. To facilitate this, I dropped the DC from 15 to 10 on the Knowledge (Nature) check and dropped the DC on the Craft (Alchemy) to 15. I suppose you could buy these, but it would almost as easy to make. it takes one hour to make one so you could save the cost and just do it yourself.

Debby

PetterTomBos
2012-12-03, 04:03 PM
What about making it apply to ability damage? That'll give it a use until lesser restoriation really comes into play.

Garryl
2012-12-03, 04:06 PM
According to the Craft rules, it takes 1/3 the market value in materials (4.66g). Regardless, it makes little sense for something so cheap and easy to make to cost so much if the raw materials do indeed cost only 0g instead of 4.66g.

Speaking of which, is there any reason you're using a fixed crafting time instead of the existing Craft skill rules? Other than the fact that at the current price, it would take too damn long to make, that is.

If you wish to expand on this concept, how about a version that heals relatively quickly but doesn't remove the damage, just turns it into nonlethal?

Razanir
2012-12-03, 04:06 PM
This is why these are relatively easy to make and use. Even a 1st level PC could make one. It costs nothing for the ingredients since the ingredients are common healing plants. To facilitate this, I dropped the DC from 15 to 10 on the Knowledge (Nature) check and dropped the DC on the Craft (Alchemy) to 15. I suppose you could buy these, but it would almost as easy to make. it takes one hour to make one so you could save the cost and just do it yourself.

Debby

This doesn't really work. Knowledge (any one) is trained only, and Craft (alchemy) can only be used by casters (possibly even only arcane casters, I can't remember)

And I support both the price drop and change in healing. d4 in a day REALLY isn't much. I'd sooner pay the temple cleric to heal me NOW. And with that, if you're trying to open healing up to commoners and level one adventurers, 11 gp is prohibitively expensive. I can get a battleaxe for about the same price. Most commoners don't even make more than a few sp/day if they're lucky. No one's going to spend a third of a year's wage on a single healing item

lunar2
2012-12-03, 04:12 PM
This is why these are relatively easy to make and use. Even a 1st level PC could make one. It costs nothing for the ingredients since the ingredients are common healing plants. To facilitate this, I dropped the DC from 15 to 10 on the Knowledge (Nature) check and dropped the DC on the Craft (Alchemy) to 15. I suppose you could buy these, but it would almost as easy to make. it takes one hour to make one so you could save the cost and just do it yourself.

Debby

doesn't change the fact that it's worth 1 GP, max. also, you need to be a spellcaster to use craft: alchemy, and you have to have access to a 500GP alchemist's lab. you are still requiring ranks in 1 underpowered skill to use the poultice, and ranks in 2 others to make it consistently. all three of these skills, btw, are most commonly found on casters. if i have a caster in the party with heal as a class skill, and he starts to craft a poultice, i'll tell him to stop being an idiot and go buy a wand of CLW with all that gold he's got laying around to buy the lab. and if he were to try to apply a poultice, i'd say quit trying (and failing) to cheap out and give me a CLW or lesser vigor.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-12-03, 04:23 PM
Even though you can make them for free... 11gp is still way too expensive.

Also, this isn't an alchemical item, a Heal check to craft would make much more sense. Also, if you let it heal ability damage, as someone else has suggested, they would be much more useful.

Debihuman
2012-12-03, 07:40 PM
Healing ability damage is far more than a simple poultice should do. Think of it like a band-aid. There are actually several skills that could be used to create a poultice. I imagine there are PCs with craft (herbalism) or Profession (Herbalist) or others that could be substituted for the Craft (Alchemy) skill. I'll add that as well.

Debby

Sgt. Cookie
2012-12-03, 07:56 PM
You can heal ability damage for free by getting 8 hours rest. That's more than a simple night's sleep by the campfire should do. Letting the poultice heal ability damage won't overpower it. On the contrary, it would actualy make it worthwhile to use.

Amechra
2012-12-03, 08:06 PM
Poultices actually would help with Con damage, since they keep blood and wounds clean.

The thing is, your current mechanical set up doesn't match how poultices work at all; they kept wounds clean and helped them close, which would be closer to speeding up natural healing, rather than getting a little burst of healing hours after they are applied.

At least have them staunch bleeding as part of their application, to save just a little bit of time with patching people up.

Deepbluediver
2012-12-04, 09:43 AM
Healing ability damage is far more than a simple poultice should do. Think of it like a band-aid.

Maybe that's part of the problem, then. You're trying to design bandaids for a world where most injuries are more on the scale of dismemberment and disembowlement. And to fix those injuries, players regularly resort to the magical equivalent of open-heart surgery and 6 months of bedrest compressed into a standard action. There's just no way anything else can compete.

Debihuman
2012-12-05, 03:12 AM
I've also designed a bandaid that works in antimagic fields and dead magic areas when spells, wands, potions, and the like don't work. It's better than natural healing AND it doesn't cost anything to make.

On a gp cost per hit point healed, the poultice is heaper than a wand of cure minor wounds and more expensive than a wand of cure light wounds.

I would never expect anyone to buy 110 healing poultices for example (which is exactly how many you would need to gain the same number of hit points that a wand of cure light wounds heals).

Here's quick breakdown of how much healing costs. Healing a single point of health costs 7.5 gp from a wand of cure minor wounds and costs 2.7 from a wand of cure light wounds and cost 4.4 gp from a poultice. I think the cost is pretty fair considering a potion of cure light wounds costs 9 gp per hp healed. Both the wand and the potion were calculated using 1d8+1 or 5.5 hp). The hp cost for my item would be somewhere between 22.5 gp to 6.75 gp, making the average 14.6 (so at 11 gp the poultice is actually a bit of a bargain).

As you can see the costs vary but the median is not far off from my price, which I think is fairly reasonable. If you don't like the item, don't use. However, there is no need to be rude about it. That some of you really need to learn how to calculate costs for things is apparent.

Debby

RoyVG
2012-12-05, 04:38 AM
First of all, I like the idea of non-magical healing, because it immediatly becomes more mundane, and affordable for low level characters and NPCs.

I do think that it is a bit on the low side, and becomes redundent really fast after level 3 or 4. Even at levl 10, it should still be usefull to apply soem herbes to heal a wound just a bit quicker.

How about this idea: When applied before going to sleep, it increase the rate of natural healing by 1 (so 2HP/level for an 8 hour sleep). This will make it a little weaker at the first few level (which might be against your intention, sorry), but now also has uses for higher level character.

alternatively, if the poultrice is worn for an entire day (24 hours), it heals 1 point of physical ability damage to 1 ability score (in addition to the one from natural healing).

EDIT: and it's only now that I see that this has been said earlier.

Razanir
2012-12-05, 09:00 AM
I've also designed a bandaid that works in antimagic fields and dead magic areas when spells, wands, potions, and the like don't work. It's better than natural healing AND it doesn't cost anything to make.

On a gp cost per hit point healed, the poultice is heaper than a wand of cure minor wounds and more expensive than a wand of cure light wounds.

I would never expect anyone to buy 110 healing poultices for example (which is exactly how many you would need to gain the same number of hit points that a wand of cure light wounds heals).

Here's quick breakdown of how much healing costs. Healing a single point of health costs 7.5 gp from a wand of cure minor wounds and costs 2.7 from a wand of cure light wounds and cost 4.4 gp from a poultice. I think the cost is pretty fair considering a potion of cure light wounds costs 9 gp per hp healed. Both the wand and the potion were calculated using 1d8+1 or 5.5 hp). The hp cost for my item would be somewhere between 22.5 gp to 6.75 gp, making the average 14.6 (so at 11 gp the poultice is actually a bit of a bargain).

As you can see the costs vary but the median is not far off from my price, which I think is fairly reasonable. If you don't like the item, don't use. However, there is no need to be rude about it. That some of you really need to learn how to calculate costs for things is apparent.

Debby

The problem is, you're comparing it to magic. Magic is what adventurers (who deal in gp) use. Commoners (who deal in sp at best) have to use mundane stuff like this. In a modern analogy, you're trying to price an abacus based on what people are paying for scientific or even graphing calculators.

Debihuman
2012-12-05, 11:36 AM
Upated. Raised from 1d4 to 1d4+1 and included in damage lethal, nonlethal and Constitution damage. That should be the tipping point.

Debby

Amechra
2012-12-05, 12:03 PM
So... about my point of having it's application stop bleeding...

Deepbluediver
2012-12-05, 01:33 PM
I've also designed a bandaid that works in antimagic fields and dead magic areas when spells, wands, potions, and the like don't work. It's better than natural healing AND it doesn't cost anything to make.

So like I said, in the absence of magic it's better than nothing.


Upated. Raised from 1d4 to 1d4+1 and included in damage lethal, nonlethal and Constitution damage. That should be the tipping point.

Tipping point for what? You asked for feedback, and most of us found the flat rate of very limited, very slow healing to be underpowered at any cost. If this kind of things works for you game, then great, but I don't think you're going to get a lot of people to jump on the "oh hey that's great now" bandwagon without some major changes.

The Con healing is certainly nice enough, but then the poultice will probably be used much more for that, and the HP becomes a secondary concern.


So... about my point of having it's application stop bleeding...
I think that normal bandages would be enough for that. Basic first aid teaches you that all you really need is some kind of clean cloth and steady pressure (and the "clean" part is optional if it keeps them alive to get more thorough care before the infection sets in). Poultices, by definition, are usually applied later on to speed healing or treat other conditions, not as first aid.

Plus, how often are you actually tracking round-by-round bleeding in D&D?

Amechra
2012-12-05, 02:03 PM
So like I said, in the absence of magic it's better than nothing.



Tipping point for what? You asked for feedback, and most of us found the flat rate of very limited, very slow healing to be underpowered at any cost. If this kind of things works for you game, then great, but I don't think you're going to get a lot of people to jump on the "oh hey that's great now" bandwagon without some major changes.

The Con healing is certainly nice enough, but then the poultice will probably be used much more for that, and the HP becomes a secondary concern.


I think that normal bandages would be enough for that. Basic first aid teaches you that all you really need is some kind of clean cloth and applied pressure (and the "clean" part is optional if it keeps them alive to get more thorough care before the infection sets in). Poultices, by definition, are usually applied later on to speed healing or treat other conditions, not as first aid.

Plus, how often are you actually tracking round-by-round bleeding in D&D?

I track it all the time. What, you don't have OCD? I may or may not.

Debihuman
2012-12-05, 02:56 PM
Simple compression would stop bleeding. If necessary, the medieval equivalent to steri strips. Beyond that stitching or a tourniquet.

I doubt a moist compress filled with herb would necessarily do the trick. A poultice is there to stop inflammation (burns, frostbite, and wounds).

What rules are you are you using for bleeding? It should be an average Heal check (DC 10) to stop bleeding unless there is a compelling reason that it should be more.

Debby

Ashtagon
2012-12-05, 03:12 PM
It's worth bearing in mind that medieval Europe (the era supposedly imitated best by D&D) was, with regard to the healing arts, probably the single least knowledgeable period in human history since we figured out how to make fire. It's questionable whether the average combatant had much idea of how to staunch a bleeding wound, less how to dress it.

We talk about it like it's common sense. Our layman knowledge of first aid would be astounding to them, and a trained EMT, even without his tools, would be considered a powerful sorcerer to the medieval mindset.

PetterTomBos
2012-12-05, 03:50 PM
SRD, amounts of HP healed by resting : 1 hp / lvl. night, 2 HP / lvl. full day. Double that with a heal check. So, at lvl. one, a DC 15 heal check gives 2 hp per night. At lvl. 2 that doubles to 4. This is what d4+1 nonmagical HP looks like.

The way farmers and others heal themselves if they are hurt? Too expensive. (If you could pay your monthly salary to avoid one day of downtime, would you?)

Actual use by characters?

The poultice require some IRL investment by the players. You need to keep track of GP used, and hours to correctly judge when the HP-gain comes into play. Roll the rolls, do the math. Im not sure my players would use their game-time for that, usually we even neglect <20 gp costs in general.

Limited amount of hp healed - How many of your players wait for their nights worth of healing when playing? What if they are ambushed? Will you walk around below your hp-max, to save a few gold? The solution may be to apply it 24h before you reckon youll be hurt, but that makes the fluff rather weird.

Competition with spells: if your players have access to healing magic it is strictly better. You get it asap (as needed), and they will usually carry a wand of CLW anyways. (Above 5-6 the healing costs are usually neglible anyways.) This is the reaspn for my suggestion of abilitydmg-healing, as one usually doesnt have readily available access to it, and when it occurs it may give a large penalty to a non-crucial score (A wizard with 4 cha? Meh).

I see one use for it: campaigns without any regular healing magic, where the only hp-gain is by resting. Even then an avarage 2.5 HP-healed is not really impressive.

I see what you are trying to do, the RP of the herb-knowing ranger is pretty indeed. Yet, the concept of a poultice is:

Slow.
Correlated to bleeding and infection.
Dependant upon damage as some important effect/wound.
Dependent upon the wheres and hows of the damage.

This isnt really D&D (3.5). Therefore the poultice seems really unimpressive, as it doesnt mesh well with the systems opinion of how the world is. Think trough what you want to accomplish with it, other than just having the concept of poultice in the game. That can be realized by fluffing the longtermcare heal-check as applying poultices and bandages. What role do you want the mechanic to fill?

I am sorry if I come across as harsh, but this is my view on this.

Amechra
2012-12-05, 04:22 PM
Simple compression would stop bleeding. If necessary, the medieval equivalent to steri strips. Beyond that stitching or a tourniquet.

I doubt a moist compress filled with herb would necessarily do the trick. A poultice is there to stop inflammation (burns, frostbite, and wounds).

What rules are you are you using for bleeding? It should be an average Heal check (DC 10) to stop bleeding unless there is a compelling reason that it should be more.

Debby

I've always run it as 15; I might have been reading the DC table wrong.

Debihuman
2012-12-05, 05:56 PM
Well here's the actual SRD on natural healing:


Natural Healing

With a full nightís rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.

If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.

It appears that you have misremembered the healing rules.

The First Aid (DC 15): "You usually use first aid to save a dying character. If a character has negative hit points and is losing hit points (at the rate of 1 per round, 1 per hour, or 1 per day), you can make him or her stable. A stable character regains no hit points but stops losing them."

Since it is a DC 10 heal check to stop the bleeding from a bat swarm's bleeding wound ability, it would follow that most bleeding damage on that level would require only a DC 10 heal check.

Debby

Amechra
2012-12-05, 07:57 PM
Ah, I was right though;

Stabilizing is important, and the only time bleeding has come up in my games (I do believe other effects that create bleeding set their own DCs for the Heal check.)

Omnicrat
2012-12-08, 05:54 AM
I really like some of the ideas put forward in this thread, but not the actual poultice the OPer is trying to make.

I think the best poultice would be as follows:

Poultice
cost: 1sp
skill check to make: DC 10 Knowledge (Nature) or DC 10 Profession (Herbalist)
skill check to apply: DC 10 Heal or DC 10 Profession (Herbalist)
effect: Instantly stops any bleeding effect on the character. Improves natural healing by one step (no rest grants 1hp/level, normal rest grants 2hp/level, full rest grants 4hp/level). The poultice stacks with the bonus from long-term care and any similar bonuses, but not with other poultices.
primary use: Peasantry, wild magic/no magic/magic restricted zones

I don't think its what the OPer intended, wants, or is going to use, but it is definitely an item I'll include in champagnes. And it only exists because of this thread. Thank-you.

Debihuman
2012-12-08, 06:15 AM
The DC of bleed damage is set by the attack (usually a creature) and would be a straight Heal check.

Improving natural healing (which you absolutely need to define as either you gain a single hit point in addition to natural healing or you gain twice as many hit points as you normally would) should cost more than 1 sp. It undermines the prices that are already set and has economy breaking potential. Why not buy 1000 poultices for 100 gp and gain 1,000 hit points? How is that fair?

Debby

Omnicrat
2012-12-08, 06:35 AM
1) The DC of bleed damage is set by the attack (usually a creature) and would be a straight Heal check.

2) Improving natural healing (which you absolutely need to define as either you gain a single hit point in addition to natural healing or you gain twice as many hit points as you normally would) should cost more than 1 sp.

3) It undermines the prices that are already set and has economy breaking potential.

4) Why not buy 1000 poultices for 100 gp and gain 1,000 hit points? How is that fair?

Debby

Numbered your points, hope you don't mind.

1) I understand that, but this is an item which supersedes that rule.

2) I edited my post to clarify precisely what I meant.

3) Improving natural healing (Which is not often used in normal magic settings to begin with) for 1sp does not break the economy.

4) Already clarified that that is not how it works.

Razanir
2012-12-08, 08:58 AM
The DC of bleed damage is set by the attack (usually a creature) and would be a straight Heal check.

Improving natural healing (which you absolutely need to define as either you gain a single hit point in addition to natural healing or you gain twice as many hit points as you normally would) should cost more than 1 sp. It undermines the prices that are already set and has economy breaking potential. Why not buy 1000 poultices for 100 gp and gain 1,000 hit points? How is that fair?

Debby

Mainly because you'd set a limit on how many can be used at a time. Possibly even one

Debihuman
2012-12-08, 10:44 AM
What is to stop someone from using 10 of these at a time to gain 10 hp/level? If it isn't clearly stated that only one may be used at a time, it's guaranteed to be abused.

Debby

Razanir
2012-12-08, 10:54 AM
What is to stop someone from using 10 of these at a time to gain 10 hp/level? If it isn't clearly stated that only one may be used at a time, it's guaranteed to be abused.

Debby

Not to sound rude, but clearly state it, then. It's your homebrew; you're allowed to set limits like that

Zale
2012-12-08, 01:42 PM
What is to stop someone from using 10 of these at a time to gain 10 hp/level? If it isn't clearly stated that only one may be used at a time, it's guaranteed to be abused.

Debby

I don't think healing that much over the course of eight or so hours will break much.

It would allow a party to rise at full health, but that has limits: It's not like it grants extra hit points, and they'll run out eventually.

Not to mention carrying several hundred of these would be kind of cumbersome, or at least take up room that could be used for something more useful.

Debihuman
2012-12-08, 01:54 PM
Not to sound rude, but clearly state it, then. It's your homebrew; you're allowed to set limits like that

It's not MY homebrew we're now discussing, it's Omnicrat's version. I set limits on mine.


I don't think healing that much over the course of eight or so hours will break much.

Remember if the party can have these so can their opponents. This is why I was careful about the limits on my stuff (see my first post).

Debby

Ashtagon
2012-12-08, 02:30 PM
What is to stop someone from using 10 of these at a time to gain 10 hp/level? If it isn't clearly stated that only one may be used at a time, it's guaranteed to be abused.

Debby

Even without such a specific note, it's standard that bonuses from the same source don't stack.

Debihuman
2012-12-08, 06:13 PM
That's true. Nevertheless, each poultice could be considered a separate source unless it is explicitly stated.

Debby

Ashtagon
2012-12-08, 07:09 PM
That's true. Nevertheless, each poultice could be considered a separate source unless it is explicitly stated.

Debby

No more than each regenerate wounds or vigour spell is a separate source.

Razanir
2012-12-08, 07:27 PM
That's true. Nevertheless, each poultice could be considered a separate source unless it is explicitly stated.

Debby

Separate source refers to bonus type. Example: Wearing armor and carrying a shield conveys both bonuses. One's armor, one's shield. On the other hand, carrying two shields doesn't work because they're both shield bonuses

Omnicrat
2012-12-08, 08:24 PM
I should note I edited my post, fixing that problem before any of your argument with debihuman started. So, I've got no idea what you are arguing about.