[VS] Guns a'Blazin! Borderlands VS TF2

[DiscipleofBob]

The Teams:

Team 1: The Vault Hunters
Mordecai the Hunter - Specializes in Sniper Rifles and Pistols, can call down his pet bird Bloodwing to attack opponents and even infuse his bird with elements.
Lilith the Siren - Specializes in SMG's and elemental weapons. Her phaseblast lets her go invisible and untouchable until she reappears, with an explosion when she phases in and another when she phases out.
Roland the Soldier - Specialzies in Combat Rifles and Shotguns. Has a portable turret that comes with shields for cover.
Brick the Berserker - Specializes in Rocket Launchers and punching things. Can go berserk and punch things so hard they explode. Or do other things.
Axton the Commando - Has a turret similar to Roland's but with some differences.
Maya the (other) Siren - Her phaselock ability essentially forcechokes someone and holds them in mid-air.
Salvador the Gunzerker - Can wield ANY two guns at once despite all logic otherwise while he's gunzerking.
Zer0 the Assassin - Can go invisible and at the same time summon a hologram distraction, also an excellent sniper.
Gaige the Mechromancer - Can summon her flying pet robot Deathtrap for support.

All Borderlands 1 characters are at their peak at the end of Borderlands 1 and the various DLC's, with whatever equipment they can carry on to the battlefield and with whatever build the poster thinks is most suited to the task/the most badass.

All Borderlands 2 characters are at their peak at the end of Borderlands 2 and the various DLC's.

Team 2:

The Heavy - Heavy-hitting tank with a gatling gun and a shotgun
The Scout - Fast-running lightweight. Uses a scattergun, a pistol, and a bat.
The Demoman - Drunk explosives expert with a grenade launcher, sticky bombs, and a bottle.
The Soldier - Heavy artillery bruiser with a rocket launcher, shotgun, and shovel.
The Engineer - Builds among other things a turret and dispensers. Besides his crafting materials he has a shotgun, pistol, and wrench.
The Sniper - Professional at his job, which just happens to be killing people. Uses a sniper rifle, SMG, and a kukri.
The Spy - Masked man of mystery. Uses a revolver, an electro-sapper to target gadgets like turrets, a butterfly knife, and a quick disguise kit.
The Medic - Mad doctor and healer. Uses a medi-gun to heal allies (and occasionally make them invincible), a syringe gun, and a bonesaw.
The Pyro - Muffled pyromaniac. Uses a flamethrower, shotgun, and fire axe.

Equipment: Including any optional, DLC, unlockable or other types of equipment added other than the base stuff.

Contest: A variety of various shooter type games, including Deathmatch, Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, etc. Respawning available to both sides when appropriate.

Locations: Just as there are a variety of contests, there are a variety of locales from both games, though in either case the arenas are cleared for play between the two teams.

[mangosta71]

No Zer0? I guess that would be kinda unfair, since a max-Bloodshed with secondary points in Cunning would mean he goes in alone and slaughters the entire TF2 team while invisible...

How smart are the combatants? Would they focus their fire on tanks, or preferentially target the support? If they're going after tanks first, Team BL has a huge advantage since they can always have a turret/death robot up to soak incoming fire if they stagger popping their abilities properly. If they're smart enough to ignore the big guy that can soak tons of damage, it's a harder call - the healers (Lilith, Maya, Medic) are gonna have some rough days once the opposing teams have identified them.

[DiscipleofBob]

No Zer0? I guess that would be kinda unfair, since a max-Bloodshed with secondary points in Cunning would mean he goes in alone and slaughters the entire TF2 team while invisible...

Ah.. sorry. Editing mistake. Fixed now.


How smart are the combatants? Would they focus their fire on tanks, or preferentially target the support? If they're going after tanks first, Team BL has a huge advantage since they can always have a turret/death robot up to soak incoming fire if they stagger popping their abilities properly. If they're smart enough to ignore the big guy that can soak tons of damage, it's a harder call - the healers (Lilith, Maya, Medic) are gonna have some rough days once the opposing teams have identified them.

I'd say that both sides are pretty intelligent, at least as far as combat and teamwork are concerned. Though I think Roland is more of a healer than Lilith, what with the turret of health and ammo regeneration.

[Istari]

First thing that sticks out to me is that TF2 has a pretty good chance on winning a Attack/Defense map as offense with ubercharged heavies, since it doesn't appear any of the Borderlands characters have an effective counter unless Maya can phaselock the heavy.

[BRC]

First thing that sticks out to me is that TF2 has a pretty good chance on winning a Attack/Defense map as offense with ubercharged heavies, since it doesn't appear any of the Borderlands characters have an effective counter unless Maya can phaselock the heavy.

From the description, it seems like the Team gets at most one heavy and one medic, so that's 10 seconds of invincibility every so often.

I'm more worried about the Spy. IIRC, they have not one, but TWO sentries to Sap, and they have no pyros with which to spycheck.

[Fan]

If we're including DLC / stuff, then we have the Mann V.S. Machine fully upgraded team for TF2.

Which includes rapid fire rocket launchers, sticky traps, the medic having the ability to share his power up canteens to double his team mates damage while making them completely invulnerable 100% as often, for 180% as long. (16 seconds, the default uber is 8 seconds.).

Then you have the man slaughtering abomination that is The Spy with his insta kill backstabs with 24 seconds of invulnerability with his 3 canteens, and his ability to move as fast as a scout.

The heavy is no longer mired without his medic as he too possesses 24 seconds of uber, as does the soldier, and demo, and he's also as fast as his medic so neither is held back by the heavies lack of movement speed.

If this were a straight up death match, TF2 all but cheats by having the first moments as completely invulnerable juggernauts of death, with the ability to instantly kill any of the members of the Borderlands 2 team who happen to have been winnowed down enough to have their shields down.

Those 24 seconds of invulnerability, the scout with max speed is just going to be one HELL of a target, and they have number advantage on top of having 24 seconds of invulnerability to work with individually, and whomever has the medic gets the medics own 24 seconds, their 24 seconds, and the medic's 14 seconds of uber, the engineers sentry is very much equivalent to a badass of any caliber when wrangled.

I pity them. Outnumbered by invulnerable gods of destruction. =(

[Sith_Happens]

If we're including DLC / stuff, then we have the Mann V.S. Machine fully upgraded team for TF2.

Which includes rapid fire rocket launchers, sticky traps, the medic having the ability to share his power up canteens to double his team mates damage while making them completely invulnerable 100% as often, for 180% as long. (16 seconds, the default uber is 8 seconds.).

Then you have the man slaughtering abomination that is The Spy with his insta kill backstabs with 24 seconds of invulnerability with his 3 canteens, and his ability to move as fast as a scout.

The heavy is no longer mired without his medic as he too possesses 24 seconds of uber, as does the soldier, and demo, and he's also as fast as his medic so neither is held back by the heavies lack of movement speed.

If this were a straight up death match, TF2 all but cheats by having the first moments as completely invulnerable juggernauts of death, with the ability to instantly kill any of the members of the Borderlands 2 team who happen to have been winnowed down enough to have their shields down.

Those 24 seconds of invulnerability, the scout with max speed is just going to be one HELL of a target, and they have number advantage on top of having 24 seconds of invulnerability to work with individually, and whomever has the medic gets the medics own 24 seconds, their 24 seconds, and the medic's 14 seconds of uber, the engineers sentry is very much equivalent to a badass of any caliber when wrangled.

I pity them. Outnumbered by invulnerable gods of destruction. =(

Huh, that might actually give a level 69 Lilith a run for her money. The other Vault Hunters are all screwed.

[Forum Explorer]

Well from what I know the TF2 is much more mobile with rocket jumps and the like. As well as possessing some serious firepower and instantly healing injuries from the medic.

I know next to nothing about Borderlands though.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not sure there's really anything on the TF2 team that the Borderlands team don't already deal with in their own games, to be quite honest.
With the arguable exception of the Spy, but that's pretty easy to deal with.

[Icewalker]

The Spy could be a problem, but I feel like Borderlands armaments and combat massively outclasses that of TF2. (Assuming we're leaving out the maxed out piles of invulnerability thing from Mann vs. Machine which just kind of makes things silly.) I mean, TF2 characters go down fairly fast under barrages of gunfire, that's how TF2 is played. The Vault Hunters are DECKED with gear, and if you are talking endgame Borderlands...

Let's say this. I've been playing Gaige recently. When I have even just a few anarchy stacks, so like 1/4 my max damage, I can open up a machine gun on a room, and kill half a dozen people by the time I empty a single 17-shot clip, which takes one second, maybe two (presumably the targets are weaker than TF2 characters, but I wouldn't say by a huge amount). And that's not with max Anarchy stacks. And DeathTrap can do as much damage as I can (And I'm not specced to buff him at all). And I'm about halfway through the plot with her, which is to say, about 1/3rd of the way through leveling, if that. And that's with random spraying of a fairly regular weapon, not careful use of a ridiculous borderlands weapon, like a fully automatic sniper rifle, or a rocket launcher that bombards the entire area it flies over with explosions.

I'm not saying Borderlands is better. But the combat is on a sillier, and much bigger and more protagonist-y scale. The TF2 characters are intended to be balanced, not to mow down armies. The end-game Vault Hunters gun down building-sized monstrosities on a regular basis.

[Fan]

Well, it does say with all DLC, and alternate mode abilities, including any that have to be unlocked, hence the MVM abilities.

This does kinda mean that they DO mow down armies, that is the entire premise of Mann V.S. Machine actually.

Piles of invulnerability, the ability to instantly double their damage, and soldier's ability to, with the beggar's bazooka put out 12 rockets into the air in the span of 3 seconds, or with the black box's health regeneration the ability to just flip the hell out and rocket jump around like crazy.

There's also the fact that they take 70% less damage from Fire, Explosions, and Bullets, regenerate actively, and move around at constant sprinting speeds with the exception of the scout who is just retarded fast.

[ThirdEmperor]

Even with their MVM abilities, the TF2 Team are dead men walking.

They might take 70% less damage from fire, explosions and bullets, but the Vault Hunters have at least ten times the health they do, even before their regenerating shields. The Heavy, the Soldier and the Demoman all get 24 seconds of invincible glory? Every member of the Vault Hunters team gets that right when they're about to be killed, and if they happen to kill someone in that time, BAM, they're back in business.

They also have way, waaaaay better weapons. Automatic-fire corrosive sniper rifles that can easily one-hit kill any member of the opposition, pistols that fire quicker than the Heavy's minigun, grenades that drag everyone into the blast or actually home in, rocket-launchers that fire like shotguns, shotguns that fire rockets- They seriously, seriously win this when it comes to armaments.

And that's before we take their action skills into account. Lilith's got her own super-speedy ubercharge that comes with an explosive finale. Maya can snap her fingers and lock the opposing team in stasis till their invincibility runs out, not to mention make a mockery of the poor scout. Axton's got turret-tech that makes the Engineer weep with envy. Gaige can actually add another member to the team with Deathtrap. And those are just a few.

The TF2 Team might mow down armies of cheap robots, but the Vault Hunters? They've mowed down a planet of cheap robots, bandits, mutant horrors and things-which-cannot-be-named.

[Fan]

The "Second wind" thing is an undeniable game mechanic, whereas the uber charge thing is something with a legitimate in game mention.

There's no.. story behind the Second Wind mechanic, I wouldn't really count it in a versus battle except for the purpose of action skills that rely on it.

Especially given that Lillith's teleportation power isn't really all that.. used.. even in Borderlands 2 it took significant amounts of energy, and wasn't something that could just be spammed, also the stasis thing doesn't have nearly the duration that the uber charge does.

As for weaponry, the TF2 team has that too with MVM upgrades, machine gun pistols that fire as fast as a minigun, the minigun itself triples in it's rate of fire, the spies knife gains the ability to go through a good fist sized chunk of steel, and his sapper becomes an AOE monstrosity that automatically hits all machines in a radius around it negating the turret advantage well.. entirely.

And again, rocket jumps, they can be done more often, with less cost, and at higher speeds than anything I've seen in Borderlands 2. The mobility it gives him is just ridiculous.

Rocket Launchers that fire like Shotguns: A slower version of a fully upgraded Beggar's Bazooka.

Fully Automatic Sniper Rifles with Corrosive Damage: Try a Fully upgraded Sniper coupled with Jarate that not only doubles the damage of everyone hit by it in it's AOE, but slows them 20%, does AOE damage comparable to a missile to everyone in the radius of anyone he headshots with a charge rate to a damage that's 3 times that of a missile to the person itself on top of that. The headshot also slows all the enemies in radius, effectively locking them in place with a jarate or mad milk.

Then there's the debate on if sapper's work on shields, the heavies ability to deflect any projectiles that come into the path of his minigun fire, the pyro's ability to knock someone hundreds of yards away with his air blast (with admittedly, MUCH, MUCH less utility than any of the other classes.) on top of reflecting projectiles, Soldier's SHEER MOBILITY advantage on top of his ability to just make it rain death. Flying creatures are VERY, VERY annoying in Borderlands, and most of them have no ranged attack for a reason. Getting bombed by someone who consistently moves between cover and recovers health for raining death on you, plus passive regeneration is VERY difficult to deal with.

There is an arguable tech advantage for the borderlands 2 team, but it depends on how you take it really.

Then there is always the silly route of "Cloak and Dagger Spy never moves, stays alive forever. The battle of old age."

[DiscipleofBob]

I'd say the Second Wind is viable for the Borderlands team if the invulnerable-spam is fair game for the TF2 team. Especially given that part of certain BL characters' skillsets (Maya for example) helps to revive characters faster. There's also examples, albeit rare, of enemies which use invulnerability in BL2, though most of the ones I can think of are raid bosses.

[Fan]

Being revived is a different thing though as opposed to second wind which amounts to "Shoot dudes, get back up.", and can be countered with simply waiting behind cover while the dude tries in vain to crawl towards you.

But again, a lot of damage can be done by the Medic / Soldier / Demo pair at this tier of play in the odd.. 24 + 24 + 16 = 64 seconds of invulnerability they have. That is a full minute of death dealing, and even if everyone else but the spy decided to hang back to let them waste their action skills on the glowing red people, I'd say they could get some serious damage done.

Sapped = Slowed, and constantly drained shields + back stab if he lowers his guard to place another one, actual at will invisibility is a big deal, and the sentry placed in this doesn't turn. I'd wonder if being sapped would also get rid of any tech based abilities related to it like shield nova.

The Gunzerker has the heavy beat at his role, but that's due to range, and variation of fire power, but the enemy team in general lacks the advantage of the medic, and spy two VERY pivotal roles.

Also, the limits on the borderlands 2 tree means that they kind of only get one build per player, which with 9 means that they're all covered for the most part, but it does mean that the right person going down to a sap + stab combo (and a max upgraded spy can backstab well over seven times in the amount of time it takes to turn around. Attack speed on melee gets ridiculous.), and then the sap hits the shields of the entire team, on top of the sentries that they had set up in their location.. it's a pretty big deal. Especially since the spy is probably good enough to make it seem like that person never went down, assuming their form, and getting in to make another kill. Hell, it could be argued that with all the personal relations in all this the spy could solo.

Though, back on topic, the spy would be followed by literally invulnerable juggernauts of death advancing on the team that has turned their attention to the also invulnerable guy while being sniped, while yet another invulnerable guy brings a rocket turret directly on top of them, which has a doubled the double rate of fire, double the already doubled durability, and can be instantly set down in case automated fire is needed, and all the stacked slows. Mad Milk + Jarate + Headshot AOE slows + Sapper slow = 60% slower movement, and that includes turn, and aiming speed.

Yeah, it's kinda hard to manage when all of a sudden all of you have blaring warnings that are distracting everyone, the sentries are down, the mechromancers death trap is gone... he kinda invalidates a good portion of that whole mechanical assistance thing. It is his job, and then he has the ability to knife you in the spine, which kills kinda indiscriminately...

It's a pretty crazy bonus.

[Sith_Happens]

Especially given that Lillith's teleportation power isn't really all that.. used.. even in Borderlands 2 it took significant amounts of energy, and wasn't something that could just be spammed, also the stasis thing doesn't have nearly the duration that the uber charge does.

Um, did you actually play the part in BL2 where you first meet Lilith? And she proceeds to spend the next five minutes phase blasting bandits to death before you can even aim at them?

And that's with her as an NPC. With my level 69 build in the first game, I could spend more time in phasewalk than out of it. And continuously electrocute everything by doing so.

[Fan]

Um, did you actually play the part in BL2 where you first meet Lilith? And she proceeds to spend the next five minutes phase blasting bandits to death before you can even aim at them?

And that's with her as an NPC. With my level 69 build in the first game, I could spend more time in phasewalk than out of it. And continuously electrocute everything by doing so.

After which she immediately required Eridium, with pauses to get Eridium in between waves, and then a general lack of control or direction to said teleporation abilities, and when she presumably had a bit of Eridium pre hand in order to use her abilities to that degree.

Yeah, I played it, and I also found her near useless as an NPC as I did more killing than she did by far, and I was far from playing an Optimal Zer0 as I was basically playing him as Mordecai.

Phase Walk also has a cool down of 36 seconds, and you can't shoot while in it, sooo.

[Socratov]

WSell, having played both games quite some (although I haven't kept up to the latest TF2 set since my internet for gaming is virtually non-existent). Here is my reaction to certain individuals and my verdict.


I'm not sure there's really anything on the TF2 team that the Borderlands team don't already deal with in their own games, to be quite honest.
With the arguable exception of the Spy, but that's pretty easy to deal with.
and even the spy. endgame BL2 you get invisible enemies from hyperion. heck. Earler you encounter the absolute trolls of pandora: the stalkers. they move quick and can turn invisible.

Even the invisibility is a problem here since with a few greandeslaid don you can deal everyone damage, continuously with elements and thus see the spy.

advantage BL

The "Second wind" thing is an undeniable game mechanic, whereas the uber charge thing is something with a legitimate in game mention.
If you can customize it with items, it's recognized in verse as a thing. And you can customize your second wind.

There's no.. story behind the Second Wind mechanic, I wouldn't really count it in a versus battle except for the purpose of action skills that rely on it.
Second wind is the DIY of rezzing. and rezzing is what you do in story with Lilith as you meet her

Especially given that Lillith's teleportation power isn't really all that.. used.. even in Borderlands 2 it took significant amounts of energy, and wasn't something that could just be spammed, also the stasis thing doesn't have nearly the duration that the uber charge does.
yes you can, to the extent of as mentioned previously you can spend more time in phasewalk then out of. it depends on how you spec

As for weaponry, the TF2 team has that too with MVM upgrades, machine gun pistols that fire as fast as a minigun, the minigun itself triples in it's rate of fire, the spies knife gains the ability to go through a good fist sized chunk of steel, and his sapper becomes an AOE monstrosity that automatically hits all machines in a radius around it negating the turret advantage well.. entirely. ok, let's make it a draw with respect to weapons since they both go off the charts, but wait a minute, to balance out TF2 the fancier weapons usually balance out by incurring a penalty. Not so in BL


And again, rocket jumps, they can be done more often, with less cost, and at higher speeds than anything I've seen in Borderlands 2. The mobility it gives him is just ridiculous.
grenades. rocket launchers. shotguns. any wapon to kill in midair. In BL a lot of enemies in the air can be found. (or thosejumping around)

Rocket Launchers that fire like Shotguns: A slower version of a fully upgraded Beggar's Bazooka.

Fully Automatic Sniper Rifles with Corrosive Damage: Try a Fully upgraded Sniper coupled with Jarate that not only doubles the damage of everyone hit by it in it's AOE, but slows them 20%, does AOE damage comparable to a missile to everyone in the radius of anyone he headshots with a charge rate to a damage that's 3 times that of a missile to the person itself on top of that. The headshot also slows all the enemies in radius, effectively locking them in place with a jarate or mad milk.
Zer0 uses decieve. Zer0 shoots at head for 650% bonus damage due to deceive and (if he's any good) about ~200% weapon damage (crit dmg on sniper, talents and badass tokens). then there is the elements. corrosion spreads from person to person, explosion is like itself. and more.

Then there's the debate on if sapper's work on shields, the heavies ability to deflect any projectiles that come into the path of his minigun fire works as well for BL characters (for rockets and thrown stones at least)
, the pyro's ability to knock someone hundreds of yards away with his air blast (with admittedly, MUCH, MUCH less utility than any of the other classes.) on top of reflecting projectiles, Soldier's SHEER MOBILITY advantage on top of his ability to just make it rain death. Flying creatures are VERY, VERY annoying in Borderlands, and most of them have no ranged attack for a reason.tatatataaataTaTaTaTaaahTaTAHTAHTAHTAAAAAH.. . etc.what I'm trying to say here is: buzzards. they have rocktes, machine funs, and what not
Getting bombed by someone who consistently moves between cover and recovers health for raining death on you, plus passive regeneration is VERY difficult to deal with.that's why you either move, get cover or shoot (and sometimes all 3 together). and of course, return the favor :smallamused: Though I got to admit, scout, medic and spy move faster then non empowered bl characters (not counting decieve dash and movespeed increase)


There is an arguable tech advantage for the borderlands 2 team, but it depends on how you take it really.

Then there is always the silly route of "Cloak and Dagger Spy never moves, stays alive forever. The battle of old age."

Zero can see invisible or cloaked units while in decieve (and see critspots).

let's tally up.

movespeed -> TF2
übercharge/invulnerability -> TF2 (for making it teamwide)
Lockdown -> BL2 (between singularity grenades, maya and explosion to drive away people from where they are)
weapons -> draw, it's both sides' rocket tag
BF shaping/trenching -> BL, 2 serties + deathbot vs 1 sentry. and they are quicker too (just a bit more temporary), so better reshaping
heal/Rez -> BL, transfusion greandes, regen class mods/eridium mods/shields, sentries can heal, deathbot restores shields, players rezzing each other and second wind And every character has a self heal of some kind
stealthing -> BL, Zer0+Lilith vs Spy, spy visible when Zer0 uses Deceive.
Versitality-> draw. either side can spec upside down
DPS -> BL, ever seen a Mordecai fully going loose? pistolero and sniper tree fully specced (can do after DLC's) he shoots pistols like a minigun (and accurate at a sniper range), ignores any armor/defense, just kill. (most of the enemies 2 shots 1 kill, almost instant reload). Same for Zero: decieve, kunai X3, sniper->4 kills in 5 secs.
defense/resilience->BL, hp, shields, and the various ways to increase it.

i'd say Team Borderlands wins. but TF2 will give BL a run for it's money

[Fan]

This is going by the Spy having 24 seconds of sheer invulnerable chaos, because he can, and will, pull off trick stabs if we're assuming these are played by reasonably decent people.

As for the healing advantage, I'm gonna have to say that they wont really have the sentries up, the spy will be invulnerable when he goes in to do a stab -> sap routine, and it's in an AOE radius large enough to fill a reasonably sized court yard, and if they're spread out they aren't focusing their fire power like they're going to need to do to overcome the medic's minute and 4 seconds of invulnerability he can give himself, and his pocket.

And again, the things in borderlands move SLOW compared to even a non boosted soldier, because not only does the base movespeed make his rocket jumps faster than what I'm about to show you, but he also has 70% resistance, 100% if he bothers to use the gun boats which in this scenario would feel optimal.

Bam. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAEOiIF8Piw)

I'm talking jumping around at speeds that are actually difficult to react to. I say this as a competitive TF2 soldier.:smalltongue: Soldier should ALWAYS be second to the point behind the demo man if he's got a decent roll out for the map, and believe me, it is optimal to have height advantage at all times.

That, and with the lack of being damaged by this the soldier and demo man both can scale sky scrapers in the span of seconds, and that means they get to set the terms, and location of engagements which means so much more when you can make those 27 seconds of invulnerability become 3 9 second intrevals that each have a kill rammed into them.

As for weapon penalties? Not in MVM.