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View Full Version : How would you make ToB even better?



Zelkon
2012-12-08, 09:09 PM
What improvements to the system and classes would you add? Are there any really cool homebrew systems around for this? New maneuvers?

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-08, 09:54 PM
Age of Warriors (http://age-of-warriors.appspot.com/)was a fan project that added a lot of new disciplines, maneuvers, classes, and so on, although the quality varies.

Some people on these forums have made some really cool disciplines-- especially Xenfas and The Demented One, IIRC.

I've also seen a magic system based on maneuver rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224508)-- I haven't read much of it, but it looks really snazzy.

Personally, I make the following changes:

Stone Dragon maneuvers can be used anywhere, not just when touching ground
Stances canít be used while riding (unless you have the mounted combat feat)
Crusaders may take a standard action to restart their maneuver-granting chain, losing all readied maneuvers and gaining 3 new ones.
Swordsages may take a full-round action to recover or swap out (wis mod) maneuvers.
Warblades have their HD dropped to a d10, and have to take a standard action to recover their maneuvers-- no more full-attack-recoveries.

Glimbur
2012-12-09, 02:45 PM
There are a few incongruities with when you get stances versus what level of stances exist, which might be worth fixing. I forget if it's a swordsage or a crusader problem. Possibly both.

New disciplines can be cool. I'd be curious to see a new initiator with a distinctive method for using and recovering maneuvers, but that's nontrivial.

Amechra
2012-12-09, 04:33 PM
That would be the Crusader.

Morph Bark
2012-12-09, 04:35 PM
Are there any really cool homebrew systems around for this? New maneuvers?

Do you have a moment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13604377#post13604377)*?


*Warning: not yet categorized by balance and/or awesomeness level.

Xefas
2012-12-09, 04:47 PM
Some people on these forums have made some really cool disciplines-- especially Xenfas and The Demented One, IIRC.


The Demented One has done some good work, but I've never heard of that first guy. (The disciplines I endorse as worth your time are in the link in my signature.)

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-09, 04:58 PM
The Demented One has done some good work, but I've never heard of that first guy. (The disciplines I endorse as worth your time are in the link in my signature.)

Huh. I just saw him go by-- scary-looking white bunny with a goatee? Muttering about how he'd take his brother's place?

(Sorry)

vasharanpaladin
2012-12-09, 05:20 PM
There are a few incongruities with when you get stances versus what level of stances exist, which might be worth fixing. I forget if it's a swordsage or a crusader problem. Possibly both.

New disciplines can be cool. I'd be curious to see a new initiator with a distinctive method for using and recovering maneuvers, but that's nontrivial.

This is the only thing that needs fixing. Best way to make ToB better is to hack magic's legs off at the knees. :smallannoyed:

Kane0
2012-12-09, 07:09 PM
I'd tinker with merging initiator level with BAB.

New & updated disciplines would be great too.

Maybe new recovery methods.

Some kind of synergy with class abilities like smite, rage and precision damage.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-12-09, 07:25 PM
This thingy is how I would improve ToB. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205213)

Vadskye
2012-12-09, 07:28 PM
Multiclassing rules and maneuver requirements that make any amount of sense.

Agent_0042
2012-12-09, 07:32 PM
Maneuver chains need to go - maneuvers should auto-scale.
In terms of power, maneuvers should lag no more than one level behind spells.
Utility maneuvers need to be a thing.
Prereqs should disappear. What's the point of having access to multiple disciplines if you can only get decent stuff from one or two?
Martial characters in general should gain more maneuvers.


Basically, the whole point of maneuvers is to make noncasters comparable in versatility to spellcasters. They need to actually do that.

bindin garoth
2012-12-09, 09:23 PM
I agree with the above, on the fact that maneuver should scale, at least to a degree, and that the maneuver chains should be done away with. It's basically the same technique, fluff-wise, shouldn't one automatically get better at it the more he/she practices it?

Utility maneuvers- This would be hard to do, considering how maneuvers are suppose to be (fluff-wise). Mechanically, you'd have to consider the Warblade and Crusader wouldn't have much room to learn these utility maneuvers too - the swordsage would be the main class who could take advantage of them (due to a high number of maneuvers known).

I'll admit - I like the idea of prereqs. It's like learning a combat style, you have to learn the basics before you can learn the more advanced stuff!

Power-level: I wouldn't necessarily say that. 1st: according to this, level 1 maneuvers should be equal to level 0 spells. And later on, this would easily mean very strong maneuvers/spells at-will effectively.

I rather like the current power level of maneuvers - although I would like to see scaling. Too many of the maneuvers become outclassed at later levels.

That is all.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-12-09, 09:52 PM
I'd remove readied maneuvers entirely. You get a pretty small set of maneuvers all told, never understood why you then have to prepare an even smaller set. If the concern is being able to use too many per encounter, then have just a set number per encounter you can use, and recovery mechanics to recoup those at whatever rate.

I also like the idea of, once you've initiated a counter, you either gain its benefits for the rest of the round, or can gain its benefits multiple times that round by spending an AoO each additional time. That way if you're, like, surrounded by vampires or something you can actually use Moment of Perfect Mind to defend yourself, or whatever.

Xefas
2012-12-09, 10:55 PM
I'm currently writing an essay about stuff I would change in the Tome of Battle, actually. One of the things I'm proposing that hasn't been mentioned here yet is the idea of Expansion Maneuvers - as in, Martial Adepts being able to take a "Core" maneuver (one that's in the base discipline) and thematically expand on it into a new maneuver to suit their needs.

For example, there is an Iron Heart maneuver that involves throwing your weapon - but that's the only support Iron Heart has for throwing stuff. If that's actually thematically appropriate enough to the idea of "Iron Heart" that there's a maneuver in it that does that, you can expand upon it, paying some XP/Gold, and create some more Iron Heart throwing maneuvers.

Its sort of the analogue to spellcasters being able to research new spells, only a bit more limited, as all martial stuff tends to be. A wizard that only knows fire spells can research Transmute Ferrets Into Bubblegum, but a Warblade actually has to know Lightning Throw to make, say, Relentless Steel Fusillade.

I also want to do something with either giving adepts more/unlimited Maneuvers Known or possibly giving them Core Maneuvers Known, and letting them have however many Expansion Maneuvers they want. Its sort of... they can only master so many "ideas" at a time, but they're free to diversify within those ideas as much they want. Learning new stuff is harder than expanding on old stuff. That sort of thing.

A few ideas about doing away with Maneuvers Readied, and replacing them with some other restriction, has also crossed my mind.

The-Mage-King
2012-12-10, 01:48 AM
...Quite a bit about removing maneuvers readied...


Why not a "stamina" thing? IL+Con mod points, each maneuver uses points equal to its level. Recovers much like normal. Crusader gets back 1/round at start, scaling to to, say, 2d6+con. Seem like a good base?

Ilorin Lorati
2012-12-10, 03:11 AM
To me, there's far too large a range on stat requirements for one class depending on discipline; I know you're supposed to focus on one mainly, but a lot of times it doesn't feel like that. Condense it down; maybe not to one stat, but maybe each class could get a physical and a mental stat as a primary DC stat.

More types of maneuvers. Boosts, Strikes, Stances, and Counters cover a lot of bases, but there's still something missing that I can't put my finger on. Maybe utility maneuvers, like mentioned before, or something that ties more into movement, like a move-action maneuver mechanic.

The table as a whole is pretty complicated. Readied maneuvers are a pain for reasons described by other posters, and I don't see why stances are gained separately from other maneuvers or why they need their own column when you only gain 3 or 4 over 20 levels.

Recovery is clunky and kinda undermines resource management to me. As an optional rule yes, or maybe for some specific classes with limited maneuver lists, but not for every initiator class.

Only replacing a maneuver every 4 levels seems heavy handed to me; I understand that it's there for balance reasons through maneuver chains and known maneuver requirements, but that's a bit silly of a mechanic too. Maneuvers should scale better from 1-20 and not need to be replaced.