Dragon Race [PF] [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Jack_Simth

2012-12-13, 10:28 PM

Prolog:
Hey all,

At the end of a campaign (in which I was a player), the DM made us gods and set us on collaborative world building (via the Dawn of Worlds (http://www.clanwebsite.org/games/games.html) system, slightly modified, still in progress as I type this), which may very well become the next campaign world we play in.

As part of that, we're making races. The race I made? Dragons. However, that's... umm... a bit much as LA+0, so I'm using the Race Builder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/arg-creating-new-races). This is a 15 point race, theoretically.

Physical DescriptionDragons vary widely in color and as minor natural chameleons, it changes with their mood and their needs. A dragon starts out life rather Tiny, generally with a body only a foot long as a child, although their size doubles if you count their long, flexible tails. By the time they're considered an adult, they're about twice that. Dragons are, however, quite capable of growing surprisingly large, when the conditions are right. No two dragons look exactly alike, although all have two slightly-curved horns growing out of the back of their heads, and many have spines along their backs. They all have long necks, some mean-looking teeth in their mouths, and claws tipping their three-fingered hands with opposable thumbs... although the claws of most Dragons are not developed enough for use in actual combat.

Age, height, and weight:
Dragons are considered to be adults when they reach the age of 100 years old - the Age of Choice - although depending on their chosen profession, they may stay under the cover of their parents' wings for up to sixty years beyond that.

Nobody is fully certain just how old dragons can actually get - they are as susceptible to death by injury, poison, and disease as much as many of the races, but they don't seem to succumb to the ravages of old age; they seem to simply grow larger as they get older... the speed of which seems tied to diet and exercise, more than anything else.

Random Starting Ages
{table=head]Adulthood|Intuitive|Self-Taught|Trained
100|+4d6 years|+6d6 years|+10d6 years[/table]

Random Length and weight
{table=head]Gender|Base body length*|base tail length*|Length Modifier|Base Weight*|Weight Modifier
Male|20 inches|40 inches|1d6 inches|20 pounds|1 pound per inch
Female|18 inches|36 inches|1d6 inches|18 pounds|1 pound per inch
[/table]
*Note: For dragons that have taken Draconic Growth, simply set the length and weight as appropriate for the upgraded size category. Dragons come in all sizes, this table merely represents 1st level dragons.

Reproduction
Despite having such a long road to adulthood, Dragons are one of the more prolific races in the world. This is the result of a number of factors. The first is that a Dragon female tends to have a clutch of three to twelve eggs (3d4), rather than bearing a single offspring. The second is that exactly one member of each clutch is male; the rest are female. This has had some impacts on their society, one of which is that it is almost unheard-of for long-term pairing between two dragons; the usual arrangement is that the parents stick together long enough for the eggs to hatch, and reach a size where they can accompany their mother on hunting trips (it usually takes about twenty years), and go their separate ways after that. The third is that Dragons don't really seem to age as such - if an individual dragon doesn't get killed by violence, poison, or disease, there doesn't appear to be anything stopping that dragon from living forever.

SocietyAbove all, dragons value choice... a value held just slightly above survival, followed closely by wealth. They do not practice impressment, even in times of great need - the soldier that does not choose to serve is not thought to be of use. While accepting of the give-and-take method of employment needed for a civilized society to run, and while resigned to cultures that practice some forms of slavery within themselves as punishment for crimes, they despise hereditary slavery with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns, and THAT crime is one of the very few things they will declare war over. It is rather fortunate for everyone that this is well known (although it did come as a surprise to the elves a very long time ago), as the race is both prolific and very skilled at warfare as a culture.

A matriarchal society due to the relative scarcity of males, at first inspection, their society seems to be held together fairly loosely; a system of families, tribes, and tribal groups, acting as a hierarchy up a chain until you reach the local ruler... who is, more often than not, little more than a figurehead for a council made up of the most influential of the next few tiers down. A closer look, however, reveals that those "loose" bonds are built of what the Dragons prize above all: Choice. Dragons do not break those bonds lightly, and they will survive some severe strains; threats never work with Dragons for long, and bribery (while useful to get an individual Dragon to go along with things - they do respect an exchange of goods for services) will never be sufficient for one Dragon to betray those to whom they have Chosen to give their loyalty.

Given the emphasis on Choice, it's no wonder that the Dragons have spread far and wide - many Dragons are citified, building clever fortifications and keeping small armies ever ready. Many Dragons Choose to live out in the wilds, far from civilization, living by their wits and their skills at hunting with just their immediate family. Many others live somewhere between, and it is quite common for a Dragon who has reached The Age of Choice to wander very far from what they know; around half of the children of city-dwelling Dragons settle away from civilization, while around half of the children of Dragons who settled far from civilization end up settling in the cities. It is an odd exchange, and causes a measure of equilibrium in their society.

Dragon Settlements:Dragon settlements are an odd affair. While dragons do come in almost any size, most dragons are small, and essentially all of them can fly; their settlements reflect this. When they settle in mass, dragons tend to build their settlements three dimensionally, with major thoroughfares for the larger dragons lined with small openings which are the entrances for the smaller dragons' homes lining the walls as high as the construction method used in the area goes (carving holes in cliff faces is the favoured method, although they will engage in what the other races would consider more conventional construction when there isn't sufficient cliff space). Businesses and public spaces tend to be a little bit larger than is required for the largest citizen in permanent residence, and there are no stairs or ladders to be found anywhere except in the foreigners' quarters, where they station diplomats and engage in trade with non-Dragons.

Relations:Dragons, being fairly skilled in diplomacy in general, can get along well with most races. However, Dragons are always a little suspicious of elves, and try to keep an eye on them, hoping they will not repeat what they tried to do to the Murids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264469) a very long time ago. Murids they will trust above most other races, having grown somewhat accustomed to how the Murids think of Dragons, and all else being equal, prefer to hire Murids above other races.

Alignment and Religion:With the emphasis on personal choice and liberty, Dragons tend towards Chaotic Good, although Dragons of all alignments can be found in the world.

Most dragons either worship the Creator, Ornald (who is hated by Earth elementals for some reason lost to history), or one of his three closest servants: Bahamut, Tiamat, or Aasterinian, who still walk the world as in times of old; some worship his younger servants, Astilabor, Chronepsis, or Faluzure.

Adventurers:Few paths are closed to Dragons; they have an affinity for magic, and Sorcerers, Clerics, and Wizards are quite common among them. While those Dragons with a more combative bent have a difficult start in life, an accomplished Dragon Warrior is a sight to behold, striking terror into the hearts of lesser creatures; they are extremely hardy and very difficult to harm with mundane weapons.

Dragons! (Racial mechanics)

Standard Racial Traits
Ability Score Racial Traits: Dragons are wise and dextrous, but their small size makes them weaker than most races. -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis.
Type: Dragons have the Dragon type, which grants 60 foot darkvision, low-light vision, and immunity to magical sleep and paralysis effects.
Size: Dragons are Small creatures (at least at first...) and thus gain a +1 size bonus to their AC, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –1 penalty to their Combat Maneuver Bonus and Combat Maneuver Defense, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
Base Speed: Along the ground, these tiny dragons travel at a base speed of 20 feet - however, they can fly at a base speed of 30 feet (clumsy).
Languages: Dragons begin play knowing Common and Draconic. A Dragon with a high intelligence bonus can also know Elvish, Murid, Arachnoch, and Goblin.
Offensive Racial Traits
Bite: All standard dragons have a Bite attack, which deals 1d2 damage.
Defensive Racial Traits
Immunities: As members of the Dragon type, Dragons are immune to sleep and paralysis.
Feat and Skill Racial Traits
Camouflage: Dragons are weak chameleons, and all of them play Hide & seek as youngsters. This makes Stealth and Perception class skills for all Dragons.
Fly: As natural flyers, Fly is always a class skill for Dragons.
Dragon Heritage: Dragons have access to Dragon Heritage Feats.
Senses Racial Traits
As members of the Dragon type, Dragons get darkvision 60 ft., and low-light vision (Dragons can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light.)

Racial Variants (also 15 points):
Fire DragonsFire Dragons have lost their bite attack and their Camouflage - they have a different upbringing, living under the shadow of a volcano - but gain Energized(Fire) as a bonus feat (see below).
Aquatic DragonsWith fewer competitors, and less to hide behind, those dragons that live in the ocean have lost their bite attack and Camouflage; however, they gain the Aquatic feat as a bonus feat.

Dragon Heritage Feats

Draconic Growth (Dragon Heritage)
You have grown large with age and experience in the ways of dragons.
Prerequisite: Dragon, one other Dragon Heritage Feat, at least 6 hit dice.
Benefit: You gain a size category, as per the Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) template (including the increased natural armor, increased Strength and Con, and decreased Dexterity). Additionally, you gain an extra +10 feet to your land movement speed, and an extra +30 feet to your fly speed. However, your flight manueverability goes down by one step (to a minimum of Clumsy).
Special: You can gain this feat more than once. Each additional copy requires one more Dragon Heritage Feat than the previous (not counting other copies of Draconic Growth), and additional hit dice (12 total hit dice for Large, 18 for Huge, 24 for Gargantuan, 30 for Colossal).

Draconic Scales (Dragon Heritage)
Your scales thicken and harden, making it harder to land a good blow with a weapon.
Prerequisite: Dragon
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to your natural armor per Dragon Heritage feat you posses.

Draconic Energy (Dragon Heritage)
With training, you gain access to your Draconis Fundamentum, which gives you a breath weapon, and a measure of protection against your aligned element.
Prerequisite: Dragon
Benefit: Pick an energy type (Fire, Cold, Acid, Electricity, or Sonic). Additionally, pick a shape: Line or Cone. You gain energy resistance vs. that element equal to five times the number of Dragon Heritage feats you posses. Additionally, you gain a breath weapon of that element, usable once every 1d4 rounds. The die size is based on your size: d4 if Tiny or Small, d6 if Medium or Large, d8 if Huge or Gargantuan, d10 if Colossal. The number of damage dice is equal to one half your class levels. The range is 10 feet per Dragon Heritage feat you posses for a line, or 5 feet per Dragon Heritage feat you posses for a cone. The save DC (reflex half) is 10 + 1/2 your hit dice + your Constitution modifier.
Special: This feat may be taken more than once. It's effects do not stack. Every time you take it after the first, you must select an energy type from the list you do not already have; you gain the associated energy resistance, and can make your breath weapon deal that sort of energy damage. However, for most purposes, you still only have the one breath weapon - the shape is the same, and they all use the same recharge time. E.g., if you have Draconic Energy(Fire), and Draconic Energy(Cold), use your Cold breath in round 1 and roll a 3 on your recovery time, you cannot use your Fire breath in round 2.

Ferocious (Dragon Heritage)
Your teeth and claws grow much more than those of most dragons... making them useful in battle.
Prerequisite: Dragon
Benefit: You gain natural attacks and Ex attacks of a dragon based on your size (Bite, Claw, Wings, Tail Slap, Crush, and Tail Sweep), as listed in the Dragon Monster Entry (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/dragon.html#_dragon), as well as proficiency in their use. The Bite attack from this feat replaces the Bite attack that most dragons have naturally.

Burrowing (Dragon Heritage)
You've tapped into your earthen heritage, and learned the trick of sliding easily through stone and dirt.
Prerequisite: Dragon
Benefit: You gain a burrow speed depending on your size category (10 feet at Tiny, 15 at Small, 20 at Medium, 25 at Large, 30 at Huge, 35 at Gargantuan, and 40 at Colossal). If you also have Ferocious, these speeds increase by an additional five feet (so 15 feet at Tiny, 20 at Small, 25 at Medium, 30 at Large, 35 at Huge, 40 at Gargantuan, and 45 at Colossal). You can burrow through anything less than solid stone, and do not leave a tunnel behind.
Special: You cannot have both Burrowing and Aquatic.

Sensitive (Dragon Heritage)
You've tapped even deeper into your earthen heritage, and learned to hear the whispers of the stones
Prerequisite: Dragon, Burrowing
Benefit: You gain tremorsense out to a distance of ten feet per Dragon Heritage Feat you posses.

Constructor (Dragon Heritage)
You're exceptionally good at tunneling, and can get through even solid rock quickly, leaving behind a usable tunnel.
Prerequisite: Dragon, Burrowing
Benefit: Your burrow speed increases by ten feet, and you gain the ability to both burrow through solid rock (although this halves your speed), and to leave behind a usable tunnel of your size if you so choose.

Aquatic (Dragon Heritage)
You've developed an affinity for the water, and find that you're as much at home in it as you are in the air.
Prerequisite: Dragon
Benefit: You gain a swim speed equal to your Fly speed, and the ability to breath water.
Special: You cannot have both Burrowing and Aquatic.

Whispers of the currents (Dragon Heritage)
Your ties to the water are exceptionally strong, and you can tell what else is in the water around you, even with your eyes closed.
Prerequisite: Dragon, Aquatic
Benefit: You gain a limited form of blindsense, that only works to detect creatures touching the same body of water that you are. The range is ten feet per Dragon Heritage feat you posses.

Keen Senses (Dragon Heritage)
You have practices observing your surroundings... and are much better at it than other dragons.
Prerequisite: Dragon
Benefit: Your senses are unusually sharp. Your darkvision range is 120 feet, rather than 60, your low-light vision extends to four times that of a human, and distance penalties to Perception checks you make are cut in half.

Frightful Presence (Dragon Heritage)
Larger than many dragons, you have learned to take advantage of the fears inherent in many smaller creatures.
Prerequisite: Dragon, Draconic Growth
Benefit: You gain the Frightful Presence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Frightful-Presence-Ex-) ability, with a few changes: First, it only operates on creatures no larger than yourself. Second, the save DC is based on your total hit dice, not just your racial hit dice. Additionally, all dragons are immune to the Frightful Presence of other Dragons.

Draconic Resilience (Dragon Heritage)
Your thick hide is difficult for mundane weapons to penetrate, even once they do get past the scales.
Prerequisite: Dragon
Benefit: You gain DR/Magic equal to the number of Dragon Heritage feats you posses.

Lesser Shapeshifting (Dragon Heritage)
With practice, you extend your natural camouflage abilities to be able to mimic the form of a few common creatures.
Prerequisite: Dragon, level 5
Benefit: You gain the supernatural ability to Change Shape (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Change-Shape-Su-) three times per day. This functions much like Beast Shape I (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape) (if you choose an animal) or Alter Self (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self) (if you choose a humanoid), except it lasts until you dismiss it.

Greater Shapeshifting (Dragon Heritage)
With practice, you extend your shapeshifting abilities to be able to mimic the forms of some of many creatures.
Prerequisite: Dragon, Lesser Shapeshifting, level 9
Benefit: You gain the ability to use Polymorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph) on yourself as a supernatural ability a number of times per day equal to the number of Dragon Heritage feats you posess, except that it lasts until you dismiss it.

Strong Flyer(Dragon Heritage)
You are better at flying than most of your kind.
Prerequisite:Dragon, fly speed
Benefit: Your fly speed increases by ten feet, and your flight manueverability goes up by one step.
Special: You can select this feat multiple times. It's effects stack. If this would cause you to exceed Perfect manoeuvrability, you treat winds as being one category less for purposes of how they affect your flight for every step above Perfect flight you would have.

Feel the Air (Dragon Heritage)
Your senses are exceptionally sharp, and you can tell many things about your surroundings by the feel of the shifting air on your wings
Prerequisites: Dragon, Keen Senses, Strong Flyer
Benefit: You gain blindsense at a radius of five feet per Dragon Heritage feat you posess.

Magically Resistant (Dragon Heritage)
You are a creature of magic, and magic has a harder time affecting you against your will.
Prerequisites: Dragon
Benefit: You gain Spell Resistance equal to 11+Your hit dice.

Alternative Breath (Dragon Heritage)
Not all dragon's breath weapon is lethal...
Prerequisites: Dragon, Draconic Energy
Benefit: Select one alternate breath weapon type from the table below. You can cause your breath weapon to deal that status effect, rather than damage; additionally, the save type changes (Fort or Will, rather than reflex) as listed below. Breath weapon shape, range, save DC, and recharge time remains the same as from your base breath weapon.
{table=head]Name | Effect | Save
Paralysis | Subject must save or be Paralized for 1d6 rounds, plus 1 round per copy of Draconic Growth that the dragon has. | Fort
Sleep | Subject must save or be rendered unconscious for 1d6 rounds, plus 1 round per copy of Draconic Growth that the dragon has. | Fort
Repulsion | Subject must save or be rendered unconscious for 1d6 rounds, plus 1 round per copy of Draconic Growth that the dragon has. This is a mind-affecting enchantment effect. | Will
Weakness | Subject must save or suffer 1 point of strength damage, plus 1 per copy of Draconic Growth that the dragon has. | Fort
Slow | Subject must save or be Slowed (as the spell) for 1d6 rounds, plus 1 round per copy of Draconic Growth that the dragon has. | Will
[/table]

Diplomat's Child (General)
You have a dragon in your ancestry (usually, but not always, as the result of a marriage to cement a treaty), and this has had some pretty noticeable effects on your physiology
Benefit: You qualify as a Dragon for the purposes of taking Dragon Heritage Feats.
Special: This feat may be taken at first level only.

Dragon Paragon

Ah, there are dragons, my son, and then there are DRAGONS. Most dragons focus on their day-to-day work, living essentially the same way most people do, and are much like anyone else. And then there are the Paragons. Those that focus on what it truly means to be a dragon. These people can become the toughest, strongest, most ferocious, or wisest people you will ever meet. The largest, too. They are not ones to cross.

Requirements: To advance in this class, you must be a Dragon.
Skill Points: 6+Int per level
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Craft(All skills, taken individually), Diplomacy, Fly, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge(All skills, taken individually), Linguistics, Perception, Perform (all skills, taken individually), Spellcraft, Stealth, Swim, Survival, Use Magic Device,
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1|+1|+1|+1|+1| Pinnacle, Bonus Feat(Ferocious)
2|+1|+3|+3|+3|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting*, Divine Arcana
3|+3|+3|+3|+3|Draconic Intuition +1
4|+4|+4|+4|+4| Bonus Feat (Draconic Scales)
5|+5|+4|+4|+4|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
6|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5| Draconic Intuition +2
7|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5| Pinnacle, Bonus Feat(Draconic Growth)
8|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
9|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6| Draconic Intuition +3
10|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7| Bonus Feat (Draconic Energy(any one of your choice))
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8| Draconic Intuition +4
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8| Pinnacle, Bonus Feat (Draconic Growth)
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Draconic Intuition +5
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10| Bonus Feat (Frightful Presence)
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11| Draconic Intuition +6
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11| Pinnacle, Bonus Feat (Draconic Growth)
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
[/table]
Spellcasting Advancement: At level 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, and every three levels thereafter, you gain spells per day and spells known as though you had also gained a level in Sorcerer. However, other than the Cantrips class feature, you do not gain any other abilities that a Sorcerer would gain. If you do not have Sorcerer levels before entering this class, you are treated as a 0th level Sorcerer at class level 1, a 1st level Sorcerer at class level 2, a 2nd level sorcerer at class level 5, and so on.
Divine Arcana (Ex): At class level 2, pick either Druid or Cleric. Spells from that class spell list are added to your class list for your Sorcerer casting, although they are still treated as Arcane spells (the Divine focus component, if any, is removed). If you selected Cleric, you may also pick two domains, and the spells from those domains are also added to your Sorcerer class list (you do not, however, gain any other benefit from the domains, such as domain powers).
Bonus Feat (Ex): At levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, and every three levels thereafter, you get the bonus feat from the Dragon Heritage list as listed on the table. If you already have that particular Dragon Heritage feat (or do not qualify for the next iteration, in the case of Draconic Growth), you may select any other Dragon Heritage feat for which you qualify. You must meet all the requirements of these feats to take them. You may instead select a fighter bonus feat, but you must still meet all the requirements.
Draconic Intuition (Ex): At third level, you gain a +1 bonus to Stealth, Perception, Appraise, and Sense Motive. These bonuses increase by 1 every three levels (6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th, et cetera).
Pinnacle(Ex):At levels 1, 7, 13, 19, and every six levels thereafter, you gain a +2 increase to any one ability score of your choice. This may be taken multiple times for the same ability score.

So: Any obvious problems or balance issues?

Changelog:

12/14/2012: Added "Scary", Tough, flavor text, and let the racial feats be Fighter Bonus feats. There has to be some way to get Colossal dragons pre-Epic, after all
12/15/2012: Upgraded "Energized" to deal more damage on the breath weapon, and increase the energy resistance. Added the Shapeshifting line (many dragons in literature have the ability to assume human form).
12/16/2012: Reduced much of the feat costs, and also got rid of the fighter bonus feat option. Updated Ferocious to be based on the standard pathfinder dragon natural weapons. Added some more flavor text, including aging tables, and dragon magic spells.
12/23/2012: Added Dragon Paragon, Strong Flyer
12/25/2012: Revised the race significantly. Seems there's enough disagreement on the validity of a < CR 1 critter being a +0 LA race that it needs to use the race builder at about 15 points. Oh well. Also deleted Dragon Magic, revised several feats, added the subraces that were added to the game last week. Added Feel the Air, Whispers of the Currents, and Diplomat's Child. Renamed a few feats - Big to Draconic Growth, Scaly to Draconic Scales, Tough to Draconic Resilience. Added Magically Resistant.
12/26/2012: Revised Dragon Paragon, updated Draconic Energy to permit it to be taken more than once, added Alternative Breath.
1/13/2013: Added a section on reproduction, updated society slightly.

AuraTwilight

2012-12-14, 04:31 AM

No breath weapon feat of some sort?

Jack_Simth

2012-12-14, 08:03 AM

No breath weapon feat of some sort?
See the "Energized" feat. Also gives energy resistance (but not immunity). Both scaling based on your other Dragon Heritage feats.

AuraTwilight

2012-12-14, 03:57 PM

Ah, my mistake, I didn't notice it also gave a breath weapon. I only noticed the energy immunity...somehow.

Starscream

2012-12-14, 05:29 PM

Looks pretty good to me. Like the racial feats.

I hope to have my Murid race up either tonight or tomorrow.

nonsi

2012-12-15, 02:56 AM

First of all, I’d like to note that this approach is wonderful.
This is the first time I know of that someone has suggested a dragon system that doesn’t require multiple sub-races.
For this alone you deserve a big round of applause.

Now for the things that need tweaking.

One thing that immediately pops when going over your proposed system:
Size potential goes like this:
- Small: 6HD
- Medium: 15HD
- Large: 24HD
- Huge: 33HD
- Gargantuan: 42HD
- Colossal: 51HD
We’re talking about actual levels here. And that’s only for those that put every single general feat into Dragon Heritage.
Not being able to surpass medium size pre-epic kind’a diminishes the draconic awesomeness feel.
Also, realistically, probably no dragon in your universe will ever make it to colossal size.

If you make it “Each additional copy requires one more Dragon Heritage Feats (not counting other copies of Big)”, then the size potential will be:
- Small: 6HD
- Medium: 12HD
- Large: 18HD
- Huge: 24HD
- Gargantuan: 30HD
- Colossal: 36HD
Again, only for those that put every single general feat into Dragon Heritage.
That’s more than reasonable.

Another change I’d make is to remove Ferocious and make it automatic. A dragon without a decent physical attack is actually not a dragon.
And if you insist on not omitting it, then it should be a prerequisite to Burrowing and to increasing to medium size and beyond.

Energized: this turns breath weapon into nothing more than mere decoration.
I mean, 4d6 at level 20 is no more than a cool breeze on a warm sunny day.
Even [1d8 + another d8 per heritage feat] is hardly impressive at mid-high levels (when average damage per round shifts to hundreds), but it’s definitely better than what you have at current.
I’d make size and HD play a role in breath weapon damage, but at current the inspiration doesn’t come to me, so maybe I’ll fill in this missing puzzle piece later on.

Scaly is also pathetic bigtime.
With a clear conscious, you could make it so that a dragon’s NA automatically increases by +1 for each heritage feat they take, and by another +2 for each size increase.
Even if you adopt all of my suggestions, this will not go beyond NA +13 pre-epic (at the expense of -3 to dodge AC), which is fine, given dragons don’t get to enjoy any of the potential benefit of donned armor or clothing in general.
Heck, NA would hardly mean anything even for colossal dragons, with attack rolls increasing so fast.

nonsi

2012-12-15, 03:33 AM

Basing everything on fighter bonus feats shoehorns all dragons to be fighters.

This results from the feat-uniformity you're aiming for.
I see no reason for doing so.
Some draconic aspects could progress indirectly (e.g. my suggestion regarding NA and breath weapon. DR and SR could also stem from things other than direct feat selection).

Jack_Simth

2012-12-16, 01:51 PM

Hi Nonsi,

On Big:
Big was one I thought about a long time - maybe a bit too long. But part of it is the bonuses of the Giant template - ignoring class features and the results of other feats (anyone with multiple copies of Big will probably have a fair amount of Scaly fill), the final modifiers for anyone with enough copies of Big to be Colossal on a Dragon would be:
+36 Str, -4 Dex, +20 Con, +2 Wis, +16 Natural Armor, +8 CMD/CMB, -8 AC, Attack, and Fly; -12 stealth (-8 in forests).

And yes, he is a melee terror. Suppose we put that on 20 levels of commoner, with base 10's in all stats, no magic items, with Ferocious, and no other feats.

Str: 46 (+18), Dex: 6 (-2), Con 30 (+10), Wis 12 (+1), Int 10, Cha 10.
BAB: +10/+5
Attack: Bite +20 (4d8+18 20/x2)
Full Attack: Bite +20 (4d8+18 20/x2), two claws +15 (4d6+9), two wings +15 (2d8+9) and tail slap +15 (4d6+9)
Reach: Space/Reach: 30/20 (30 feet with bite)
AC: 16 (T 0, FF 16)
HP: 20d4+200 (250)
CMB: +36
CMD: 44
Move: 75 (15 squares), Fly 240 (Clumsy) (48 squares)

I'd say that's fairly epic, for an unequipped commoner. Tell me: can you build an unequipped Human Fighter that's fighting at the same level? How does that human fighter then compare to a Dragon Fighter that has focused on being Big?

Yes, Big is expensive. That is a deliberate design choice, because Big is a rather powerful feat. The Giant template would normally be +1 CR. Given that the other required feats are still useful, I figured three feats would be probably a reasonable exchange. And yes, Scaly is intended as a feat tax for Big. You can get a few copies of Big without hitting Scaly if you want by hitting up the other Dragon Heritage feats, which are reasonably useful.

Or am I wrong and totally missing the expected optimization level in Pathfinder? I'm afraid I don't have much experience with Pathfinder.

On Uniformity of feats, and shoehorning Dragons into being Fighters:
I wasn't specifically targeting feat uniformity. That only comes out of an underlying assumption that all Dragons will want to be as Big as possible.

Consider a dragon Rogue, focusing on stealth; the dragon doesn't really want to be Big. The dragon gets +12 to Stealth by remaining Tiny. If this one picks up, say, Burrowing, Sensitive, Keen Senses, and Ferocious, then grabs a Longspear, the dragon can scout much better than most characters in utter darkness (120 foot vision rather than 60 feet), can hide underground - and be safe from most monsters immediately - if the dragon needs to retreat for a little while to regroup. This dragon can attack adjacent opponents about as well as most rogues (most his damage comes from his Sneak Attack, which he will probably get rather often, thanks to the bonuses to Stealth). This rogue also gets a touch AC that's unusually high.

Consider a dragon Arcanists: they don't really want to be Big, for many of the same reasons as the Rogue. Burrowing and Sensitive, then use move actions to go up and down in the dirt while casting spells - can cast every turn, but is only subject to counterattack every other turn. No real need for Ferocious.

OK, yes, a Melee-centric character will want to be as Big as possible, and that will cause a uniformity of feats to a heavy extent (takes 18 feats to hit Colossal - a Dragon Fighter-20 gets a grand total of 21)... but it is much less attractive to other character types ... especially if you're regularly going into areas that are designed for Medium or smaller creatures - you know, like many dungeons, most buildings (even Dragon buildings; in most campaign worlds, the population is usually assumed to be low-level, so most Dragons are going to be Tiny or Small), and so on.

On the breath weapon:Hmm, good point. What would be fair? 1d6 per Dragon Heritage feat? Make it a flat (1/2 hit dice, minimum 1)d6, with the DC based on the number of Dragon Heritage feats (10+Con Modifier+number of Dragon Heritage feats)? Make it about as strong as your basic Evocation doing a flat 1d6/level, DC (10+Con Modifier+number of Dragon Heritage feats)?

On Scaly:Why yes, it is intended to be a feat tax for people wanting more than two levels of Big.

Edit:
Updated Energized to be a bit more powerful - faster growth of the energy resistance, made the damage dice based off size, the number of dice based off of hit dice, and the range based off of the number of Dragon Heritage feats. Also added some shapeshifting, as it shows up so often in literature.

Edit Again: Hmm... maybe some dragon-specific spells? Like:
Invoke Draconic Heritage, Lesser:
School: Transmutation;
Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Cleric-1, Witch 1, Alchemist-1
Component: VS M/DF
Range: Touch
Target: One Dragon
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fort Negates (Harmless)
SR: Yes (Harmless)
Focusing on the spirits of dragons past, you channel a small portion of their power into the subject, making the target a little bit more draconic, for a time.
The affected Dragon temporarily gains access to one Dragon Heritage feat of your choosing for which the target meets the prerequisites. If the effects of the Dragon Heritage feat would extend beyond the duration of the spell (such as with Least Shapeshifting), then the effect ends when the spell does. This spell overlaps (does not stack) with other Invoke Draconic Heritage spells.
Arcane Material Component: A shed scale from a Dragon.

Invoke Draconic Heritage:
School: Transmutation;
Level: Sor/Wiz 4, Cleric-4, Witch-4, Alchemist-3
Component: VS M/DF
Range: Touch
Target: One Dragon
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fort Negates (Harmless)
SR: Yes (Harmless)
Focusing on the spirits of dragons past, you channel a portion of their power into the subject, making the target more draconic, for a time.
The affected Dragon temporarily gains access to one Dragon Heritage feat of your choosing for which the target meets the prerequisites per four caster levels, with a maximum of four feats at caster level 16 (the target cannot use some of the temporary feats from this spell to qualify for this spell; the target must qualify for all of them individually). If the effects of the Dragon Heritage feat would extend beyond the duration of the spell (such as with Least Shapeshifting), then the effect ends when the spell does. This spell overlaps (does not stack) with other Invoke Draconic Heritage spells.
Arcane Material Component: A shed scale from a Dragon.

Invoke Draconic Heritage, Greater:
School: Transmutation;
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Cleric-8, Witch-8, Alchemist-5
Component: VS M/DF
Range: Touch
Target: One Dragon
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Fort Negates (Harmless)
SR: Yes (Harmless)
Focusing on the spirits of dragons past, you channel a large portion of their power into the subject, making the target much more draconic, for a time.
The affected Dragon temporarily gains access to one Dragon Heritage feat of your choosing for which the target meets the prerequisites per three caster levels, with a maximum of 6 feats at caster level 18 (the target may use some of these feats from this spell to qualify for other feats from this spell). If the effects of the Dragon Heritage feat would extend beyond the duration of the spell (such as with Least Shapeshifting), then the effect ends when the spell does. This spell overlaps (does not stack) with other Invoke Draconic Heritage spells.
Arcane Material Component: A shed scale from a Dragon.

nonsi

2012-12-16, 03:23 PM

Ok, let’s backtrack for a moment to before fighter bonus feats were an option.

Now consider the following suggestions regarding the above . . .

Big:
Taking it once requires being a dragon with 3HD.
Each additional taking beyond the first requires at least one heritage feat other than Big (or simply 6HD per category beyond small... or both).
This allows the following progression:
- Small: 3HD
- Medium: 6HD
- Large: 12HD
- Huge: 18HD
- Gargantuan: 24HD
- Colossal: 30HD
Now this seems just right to me.
Since there’s no trivial way I know of for PCs to become gargantuan pre-epic, I see no reason to allow such privileges to dragons (but huge is ok, since druids get there pre-epic).

Burrowing:
I’d make it per size category (more than enough and also makes sense).

Energized:
I see no flaw in your current formula.

Ferocious:
For attack methods by size, I’d just use that of the core true dragons.
And again, if one’s natural weapons aren’t tough enough for combat, they’re certainly not tough enough for burrowing. This I conclude from the fact that there’s not a single ceature on earth that can burrow at a rate of 10ft per 6sec (let me know if I’m missing anything, just do me a favor and skip the “it’s fantasy, get over ir dude” comment).
Another option is to say that dragons are carnivorous hunters and therefore get this one for free . . . unless you wish for fairy dragons to be a built in option (which is legitimate).

Scaly:
I’m sticking with my previous suggestion (+1 for each heritage feat they take, and another +2 for each size increase).
I’d never waste a general feat (or any feat for that matter) to gain +1 to NA. No way in friggin hell.
If I had to take feats – one-by-one – to push NA, I’d just ditch the option of playing a dragon.

Shapeshifting:
I’d keep the Lesser and Greater versions and toss the other two (remember, no bonus fighter feats).

The remaining feats are just fine.

With the above suggestions, dragons won’t be insanely stronger that anyone else, but they’d still be super fun to build and play.
Also, this way draconic characters would be just different enough from one another to make things interesting.

Jack_Simth

2012-12-16, 09:05 PM

OK.

Big: Reduced the feat progression, added explicit HD requirements. Oh: And whether or not it's easy to get above Huge depends on whether or not a polymorph effect is considered a magical effect that increases size, or just a magical effect that changes your shape. Beast Shape III, for instance, can get you to Huge. If it counts as a magical effect that increases your size, then you can't readily go further. If it does not count as a magical effect that increases your size, then Animal Growth will get you up another size category. Druids gain access to both automatically after a particular level (through Wildshape and the Divine spellcasting mechanic).

Burrowing: Done.

Ferocious: I was having a spot of trouble finding them, and had just grabbed the ones out of the d20SRD, rather than the Pathfinder d20 SRD. I found them, now, so linked them that way.

Ferocious as automatic: There's two main reasons I'm saying "no", here, and a third one you mentioned: First, game balance: I can reasonably justify 'no weapons without class levels' as definitively reducing the CR of a creature - which effectively becomes LA, in Pathfinder. I... can't really see myself arguing that a Pseudodragon that still has full offensive capability is less than CR 1. Second: Flavor: This is a highly civilized race. Yes, they go to war. Yes, they're still primarily carnivorous. So are many humans. But a civilized person doesn't generally trust someone who's bristling with weapons unless there's an easily-accepted reason for them bristling with weapons (e.g., you don't worry about the guy holding a rifle at firing range, unless he's pointing it at someone; you do, however, grow concerned about the guy holding a rifle in the middle of a city street unless he's in an appropriate uniform). The third is the one you mentioned - there are a lot of flavors of dragons in Pathfinder & D&D. I'd like to be able to mostly model most of them reasonably convincingly.

Ferocious as a requirement for Burrowing: No. While I know of no real-life creature that can burrow even five feet in six seconds... dogs do dig pretty quickly (I saw a few catch moles via digging them out when I was growing up)... and while if you do get in a fight with a dog one you may end up with a few scratches from their claws, they pretty much don't use their claws in a fight; they use their teeth. Additionally, there are already a number of burrowing creatures in Pathfinder that do not have claw attacks: The Ankheg (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/ankheg), the Barbegazi (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/barbegazi-ice-gnome), and the Barrow Rat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/barrow-rat) to name three.

Scaly: OK. If I'm not going to make Big quite as expensive, that makes sense. Also added a note to Big that you do get the stat boosts and natural armor increases from the Giant template, just to reiterate.

Shapeshifting: Integrated the suggestion.

nonsi

2012-12-17, 01:46 AM

Good calls, all of them.

Just one thing I noticed that you might want to consider.

Big (Dragon Heritage)
. . .
Prerequisite: Dragon, at least two other Dragon Heritage Feats, at least 3 hit dice.

I'm no PF expert, but it seems to me like requiring two heritage feats for the initial taking of Big will make all sizes achievable no sooner than 3HD higher than the feat's minimum HD requirement (unless there's a way to gain a 3rd general feat by 3rd level and another one along the way).
I believe you should omit the feats requirement for the initial taking. This will still require all general feats to be heritage feats in order to not delay size potential (and the HD requirements make munchkinism a non-issue).

Also, instead of cutting down maneuverability per size, you could simply apply the size penalties to Fly and keep the option of high skill investment for decent aerial maneuverability (again, unless this is another PF thing and I'm missing something).

Other than the above, I can sum this up as fantastic work :smallcool:

Jack_Simth

2012-12-17, 07:57 AM

Oh, right. Pathfinder gives general feats at every odd level (1st, 3rd, 5th, and so on), but yes, only two general feats by 3rd (unless you're human and then it mostly doesn't matter).

Hmm. With the HD restrictions on there (6 to become Medium size, 12 for Large, 18 for Huge, 24 for Gargantuan, 30 for Colossal), that actually puts the earliest for the various big categories at:
Small: 3rd
Medium: 7th (no feat at 6th)
Large: 13th (no feat at 12th)
Huge: 19th (no feat at 18th)
Gargantuan: 25th (no feat at 24th)
Colossal: 31st (no feat at 30th)

... other than that the Loremaster's Secret(Applicable Knowledge) has the same wording in Pathfinder as it does in D&D 3.5, so one of those can be shifted with the right build. I should probably also make some form of racial paragon class - full BAB, d12 hit die, all good saves, 6 skill points/level, 1/3 Sorcerer casting progression, and ... that'd probably be enough. Maybe some bonus Dragon Heritage feats, but that's iffy.

nonsi

2012-12-17, 08:38 AM

DaTedinator

2012-12-17, 11:57 AM

Jack_Simth

2012-12-17, 06:41 PM

All of this that follows should have a tremendous disclaimer. Not only am I not terribly familiar with Pathfinder, but the fact that you've already had so many eyes on this that don't see any problems leads me to believe I'm just wrong or missing something.

That said, in 3.5 at least, this is not an LA +0 race. You've got a race with an inherent +6 to AC, +14 to Stealth, +4 to ranged attacks, and a fly speed twice the land speed of any other party members, with the ability to hover. That needs LA.
Possibly, but once the natural attacks are removed, it's not a threat at all without class levels or allies, making it CR<1 by a decent margin.

However: Pathfinder is erratic (at best) about LA (and don't even have a term for it). As Pathfinder appears to have been built on the back of the D&D 3.5 d20 SRD, LA was specifically removed from the game by Paizo, and we're stuck with what little they do say. Which... well:

If I left everything with the pseudodragon intact, including the racial hit dice, and look at the Monsters As PC's (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html) rules, they've be playable at level 1 with no class levels, would have one class level at level 2, and so on. An ECL 1 race (with two racial hit dice, so negative one LA in D&D 3.5 terms).

If I look at the Race building Rules (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder.html), the stripped-down version I posted comes out to about 37 points + whatever telepathy is worth... which has guidelines which say to add 3 levels to the challenge rating you'd expect for a party with those class levels up to level 5, add two levels to the challenge rating you'd expect for a party with those class levels up to level 10, add one up until 15th, and 0 after that. Essentially +3 LA, with a point of LA bought off every five levels, in D&D 3.5 terms, not playble in less then a 4th level party (and hideously badly off in that party).

If I look at the Monster Cohorts (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCohorts.html) section, an Azer is treated as a 5th level character for purposes of being a cohort... and is CR 2 with 2 racial hit dice (LA+3), with no provision for any sort of buyoff in D&D 3.5 terms.

We have three independent, mutually contradictory systems for LA in Pathfinder. Maybe once Pathfinder actually settles on something, we can have this conversation in a meaningful manner without jumping back to 3.5. Until then, I'm picking something that's at least partially supported by the Pathfinder rules and that I think I'll be able to get my DM to run with.

Oh, and on a side note: As a player in a group, SR is actually more of a hindrance than a benefit: "A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by such spells without forcing the caster to make a caster level check." (from Here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html)), which means it mostly prevents emergency in-combat healing from anyone other than yourself (there's a clause elsewhere about your own SR never interfering with your own spells). For a group of homogeneous opponents, it's not a problem (they'll almost never buff each other), but for a player in a party, it's not actually a good thing.

They can just fly up out of reach, peppering their enemies with bolts or spells.
In an area with high ceilings (above reach + height of the opponent(s)), vs. (a) land-bound opponent(s) with no ranged attacks, when you don't have any land-bound companions you care about, this is true. If any one of those conditions is false, so is that tactic. If the ceilings aren't above the reach of your opponents, then you can't fly out of range. If they have ranged attacks, then they can pepper back regardless of ceiling height. If your opponents are not land-bound, then they can follow you regardless of ceiling height or the ability to attack at range. If you have land-bound companions that you care about, then the opponents can just attack them regardless of whether or not they can attack you. So you've got four possible failure points on that strategy. It's not really all that hard for the DM to get around, especially in a mixed party. Much of the time you'd be better served hiding behind the party meat-shield to do the same thing.

Add to that Blindsense (which, as far as I'm aware, no standard PF race has) and Spell Resistance (which, as far as I'm aware, no standard PF race has at that strength), and it may be CR < 1, but it's almost certainly not LA +0. Telepathy is just icing on the cake.

The key clauses to keep in mind from the Monsters as PCs section are the beginning and the end:

And

The monsters as PCs rules work best when it's a monster that's similar to PC races. Pseudodragons have a lot of differences - their size is a good example, and flying is another - that means increased adjustment is necessary.

Also note that removing racial HD doesn't lower LA; in many cases, it increases it. Racial HD are kind of like LA-lite; you're raising the ECL, but you're at least giving them something to show for it. Dragon HD are really good, so removing only two of them doesn't increase the LA needed, methinks, but it definitely isn't an argument for lowering LA.
The catch being: For practical purposes, Pathfinder doesn't even have an LA mechanic. It was removed from the game, and replaced with something rather... fuzzy (oh, and Pseudodragons have an LA in D&D 3.5 - they're two racial hit dice, LA+3, suitable for 5th level play... theoretically; Lots of people complain that LA is much higher than it should be in most instances).

Not really. If you give bonus heritage feats exactly at each level divisible by 6, you'll nail the HD requirement right on the head.
That class would need little else to shine, just for heaven's sake, be cautious how you spam those Sorc levels.
On the Sorc levels, I was thinking something like 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20.

The iffy bit wasn't where to put bonus Dragon Heritage feats... it was on whether or not it would be too strong if they're included. But the table would end up looking something like:

Dragon Paragon

Skill Points: 6+Int per level
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Craft(All skills, taken individually), Diplomacy, Fly, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge(All skills, taken individually), Linguistics, Perception, Perform (all skills, taken individually), Spellcraft, Stealth, Swim, Survival, Use Magic Device,
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1|+1|+1|+1|+1| Pinnacle, Draconic Bonuses +1
2|+1|+3|+3|+3|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting*, Divine Arcana
3|+3|+3|+3|+3|Bonus Feat
4|+4|+4|+4|+4| Pinnacle
5|+5|+4|+4|+4|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting, Draconic Bonuses +2
6|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Bonus Feat
7|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5| Pinnacle
8|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
9|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Bonus Feat, Draconic Bonuses +3
10|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7| Pinnacle
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|Bonus Feat
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8| Pinnacle, Draconic Bonuses +4
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Bonus Feat
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10| Pinnacle
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting, Draconic Bonuses +5
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|Bonus Feat
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11| Pinnacle
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
[/table]
Spellcasting Advancement: At level 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, and every three levels thereafter, you gain spells per day and spells known as though you had also gained a level in Sorcerer. However, other than the Cantrips class feature, you do not gain any other abilities that a Sorcerer would gain. If you do not have Sorcerer levels before entering this class, you are treated as a 0th level Sorcerer at class level 1, a 1st level Sorcerer at class level 2, a 2nd level sorcerer at class level 5, and so on.
Divine Arcana (Ex): At class level 2, pick either Druid or Cleric. Spells from that class spell list are added to your class list for your Sorcerer casting, although they are still treated as Arcane spells. If you selected Cleric, you may also pick two domains, and the spells from those domains are also added to your Sorcerer class list (you do not, however, gain any other benefit from the domains, such as domain powers).
Bonus Feat (Ex): At levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, and every three levels thereafter, you get a bonus feat from the Dragon Heritage list. You must meet all the requirements of these feats to take them. You may instead select a fighter bonus feat, but you must still meet all the requirements.
Draconic Bonuses (Ex): At first level, you gain a +1 bonus to Stealth, Perception, and Appraise. These bonuses increase by 1 every four levels (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th, et cetera).
Pinnacle(Ex):At levels 1, 7, 13, 19, and every six levels thereafter, you gain a +2 increase to any one ability score of your choice. This may be taken multiple times for the same ability score.

DaTedinator

2012-12-18, 01:56 PM

If I left everything with the pseudodragon intact, including the racial hit dice, and look at the Monsters As PC's rules, they've be playable at level 1 with no class levels, would have one class level at level 2, and so on. An ECL 1 race (with two racial hit dice, so negative one LA in D&D 3.5 terms).

But again, I refer to the sections that I quoted. The Monsters as PCs rules are meant to undergo heavy DM scrutiny, especially when looking at monsters that can do things standard characters can't.

If I look at the Race building Rules, the stripped-down version I posted comes out to about 37 points + whatever telepathy is worth... which has guidelines which say to add 3 levels to the challenge rating you'd expect for a party with those class levels up to level 5, add two levels to the challenge rating you'd expect for a party with those class levels up to level 10, add one up until 15th, and 0 after that. Essentially +3 LA, with a point of LA bought off every five levels, in D&D 3.5 terms, not playble in less then a 4th level party (and hideously badly off in that party).

Much more reasonable - though as you say, still not perfect. Cut some of the abilities/turn them into feats - I'd trim the ability bonuses to +4 Dex, -4 Str; improve their speed to 20', and change the Fly speed to a Glide speed (with feats to improve the flight); ditch the natural +4 to Stealth (keep the +4 in forests if you want); ditch telepathy entirely (it's just not something I associate with dragons, but that may just be me); and turn the Blindsense into a feat.

That would drop your score by 18+ points (depending on how you scored the extra 30' of blindsense). In fact, you might then be able to afford to give them a bonus Dragon Heritage feat, giving the race an inherent sense of variety.

In an area with high ceilings (above reach + height of the opponent(s)), vs. (a) land-bound opponent(s) with no ranged attacks, when you don't have any land-bound companions you care about, this is true. If any one of those conditions is false, so is that tactic. If the ceilings aren't above the reach of your opponents, then you can't fly out of range. If they have ranged attacks, then they can pepper back regardless of ceiling height. If your opponents are not land-bound, then they can follow you regardless of ceiling height or the ability to attack at range. If you have land-bound companions that you care about, then the opponents can just attack them regardless of whether or not they can attack you. So you've got four possible failure points on that strategy. It's not really all that hard for the DM to get around, especially in a mixed party. Much of the time you'd be better served hiding behind the party meat-shield to do the same thing.

Obviously, yes, there are going to be situations that negate the benefits of flight, and a whole lot of the usefulness of flight comes down to your DM and the kind of game he's running. That said, I think it's safe to assume three things:

In most situations, you'll be able to fly somewhere out of reach (especially considering that you're tiny, and can fit through all sorts of nooks and crannies).
A tiny character will likely focus on ranged combat, but not all of his opponents will do the same. In fact (again, depending on the campaign), it's very possible that most opponents will not.
At low levels, very, very few opponents are going to be able to fly.

These three things, combined with a dragon's naturally high AC, conspire together in some pretty dastardly ways. Obviously at higher levels the playing field balances out some, but lower levels are kind of the focus for LA and its ilk, given that the concern is not giving out too powerful of abilities too quickly.

And yes, your party members are still at risk, but you're largely out of harm's way and still attacking enemies - meaning you're contributing to combat, and none of your party members have to worry about protecting you.

The catch being: For practical purposes, Pathfinder doesn't even have an LA mechanic. It was removed from the game, and replaced with something rather... fuzzy (oh, and Pseudodragons have an LA in D&D 3.5 - they're two racial hit dice, LA+3, suitable for 5th level play... theoretically; Lots of people complain that LA is much higher than it should be in most instances).

Right, but pretty much whichever way you slice it - even by at least one (I would argue two) of the two applicable Pathfinder methods - this race deserves one. Meaning, in a system without a real LA mechanic, they need to be toned down.

Starscream

2012-12-20, 12:40 AM

I don't know if you were here when he said it, but Magotter mentioned that he's looking for something in the area of 10-15 RP (so I actually need to give the murids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14380714) a boost at the moment).

I don't know if that's final, though. Might want to ask him when next we play.

nonsi

2012-12-20, 06:08 AM

Just noticed that your proposed Dragon Magic spells will put your "Iconic Dragon" class (4th level spells no sooner than level 20) at a drastic disadvantage in comparison to a dragon cleric of 8th-19th level.

I mean, no character in the world should beat an iconic dragon at being a dragon.

You could ameliorate this by renaming "Divine Arcana" to "Draconic Divine Arcana" and make "Invoke Draconic Heritage" into 3rd SL "Draconic Divine Arcana" (maybe also "Invoke Draconic Heritage, Greater" into 4th SL "Draconic Divine Arcana", but that's debatable).

Another thing you could do is to limit the spells to not allow the same draconic feat to be taken more than once, so that a character cannot go from tiny to colossal with a single spell.

Another option is to nix those spells altogether.

Whatever you decide, it seems unfair and unbalanced to keep things the way they are.

Jack_Simth

2012-12-20, 08:24 AM

Much more reasonable - though as you say, still not perfect. Cut some of the abilities/turn them into feats - I'd trim the ability bonuses to +4 Dex, -4 Str; improve their speed to 20', and change the Fly speed to a Glide speed (with feats to improve the flight)
Eh... everyone's got things that they consider 'essential' to a critter being that critter. Sort of like all those anti-Twilight people being annoyed at the Twilight vampires being called vampires - they don't have the classic vampire weaknesses, which is one of the things that define vampires for many people.

For nonsi, part of a dragon being a dragon was being ferocious - "A dragon without a decent physical attack is actually not a dragon". For me, flight is one of those things for dragons.
I don't know if you were here when he said it, but Magotter mentioned that he's looking for something in the area of 10-15 RP (so I actually need to give the murids (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14380714) a boost at the moment).

I don't know if that's final, though. Might want to ask him when next we play.
Yeah, I'm probably going to have to do some serious cutting, here.

Possibly:
Type: Dragon: +10
Size: Small: +0
Speed: Slow Speed: 20 feet: -1
Abilities: Standard: -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Wis: +0
Language: Standard: Draconic, Common, [Pick 7 after world creation is done; fluff's that they're just about everywhere, so they need most, if not all, of the main languages for the world; should be doable, we don't have too many races]: +0
Skill Training (Stealth, Perception - I just noticed Fly is free with natural flight): +1
Flight (for 30 feet, Clumsy manueverability): +4
=14

Of course, I'll need to re-write a number of feats based on that (Big can't drop fly manuverability anymore, Big is now starting from Small, rather than Tiny, so a step needs to be removed in there somewhere, there's a couple of feats tied to size - breath weapon damage dice, burrow speed, a few other things - and those will need to be corrected). Hmm.

Another option is to nix those spells altogether.Ah, I see. Yeah, this is probably the route I'll take.

Starscream

2012-12-20, 10:48 AM

Of course, I'll need to re-write a number of feats based on that (Big can't drop fly manuverability anymore, Big is now starting from Small, rather than Tiny, so a step needs to be removed in there somewhere, there's a couple of feats tied to size - breath weapon damage dice, burrow speed, a few other things - and those will need to be corrected). Hmm.

You could always try to free up a couple of points by applying some disadvantages to them. Then you could afford more of the stuff you want. I know dragons are traditionally the baddest dudes on the block and don't have a lot of drawbacks, but you could always invent some to reflect their unique outlook.

Maybe some sort of greed mechanic, reflecting their tendency to hoard wealth, meaning the presence of large amounts of valuables they don't yet own messes with them. Like fighting in a room full of gold would reduce their concentration checks and will saves, as they fight the urge to just pounce on it and yell "Mine!".

Or something reflecting how territorial they are, causing them to take diplomacy penalties with other dragons. Or vanity, forcing a will save to avoid being fascinated by a reflective object, like a reverse of vampires. Or pride meaning they have to fight the urge to attack anyone who challenges them or makes an intimidation check.

Basically dragons are psychological train wrecks. :smallwink:

nonsi

2012-12-20, 02:08 PM

If you intend to use your proposed Iconic Dragon class, then "Draconic Paragon" seems an appropriate name.

Also, given that:
1. your proposed class is quite thin on features.
2. True dragons have superior armor and elevated ability scores, and race-associated skill bonuses.
it seems to me like it would be reasonable to fill the class' dead levels with ability/NA/skill-check increases.

Finally, given full BAB is kinda pointless without honing combat skills, you might wanna consider limiting the bonus feats to heritage feats that directly impact combat prowess in a non-situational manner (namely Ferocious, Big, Scaly & Tough)

Btw, for the record, I now see that you've made a better call than I did regarding what makes a dragon... a dragon.

nonsi

2012-12-23, 01:55 AM

nonsi

2012-12-23, 03:52 AM

Btw, I support Starscream's suggestion for draconic personality disadvantages (details on you JS).
This is also the only plausible explanation to why they haven't already taken over the world.

DMVerdandi

2012-12-23, 05:09 AM

http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-03/art/bof3-misc01.jpg

Honestly I am a big fan of Dragoner/Brood(Final Fantasy Tactics/Breath of fire respectively).
Giving them human appearances, and through discovering their own genetic mysteries gaining further strength and access to their own draconic power.

What you have going on is interesting, but It WOULD to be cool to see a bipedal human-esque "Drake", race(Half-dragon looks, no significant racial bonuses) with a DRAGOON class, which goes through the process of transformation into a true dragon.

Set it up like the barbarian rage, where a drake turns into a True dragon for a certain amount of time, and reverts back to a drake. Give them all arcane spells known, and have them prepare spells like a cleric.
No weapon and armor proficiencies,Constitution main modifier, and have the Aspects(Colors, types,ect) replace bloodlines.

Along with dragon transformation and spells for Class features, give them things like manifest claws,scales,and wings. D12 Hit die.

Dragon Transformation could increase the size of the dragon every 3 levels, starting at small, and ending at colossal.
Finally, it could have an extend transformation feature that gives you more time in the transformation for every level of spell you sacrifice.

Finally for more balance, make it so that entry to the Dragon class has stipulations. Taking more than 2 levels outside of the dragon class in succession halts a drakes draconic growth, and levels cannot be taken in the dragon afterwards.

Of course, I am not really forcing it down your throat or anything.
It would just be cool as hell... I might just make it in an alternate thread.
Might not even be to your tastes. Just throwing it out there.
Mite B Cool.

The dragoon
{table=head]Table: The dragoon|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|
Dragon Transformation(small), Manifest Claws

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|
Dragon Transformation(Medium), Manifest scales

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|

6th|
+6|
+5|
+2|
+2|

7th|
+7|
+5|
+2|
+2|
Dragon Transformation(Large), Manifest Darkvision

8th|
+8|
+6|
+2|
+2|

9th|
+9|
+6|
+3|
+3|
Dragon Transformation(Huge)

10th|
+10|
+7|
+3|
+3|

11th|
+11|
+7|
+3|
+3|

12th|
+12|
+8|
+4|
+4|
Dragon Transformation(Gargantuan), Manifest Wings

13th|
+13|
+8|
+4|
+4|

14th|
+14|
+9|
+4|
+4|

15th|
+15|
+9|
+5|
+5|
Dragon Transformation (Colossal), Manifest breath

16th|
+16|
+10|
+5|
+5|

17th|
+17|
+10|
+5|
+5|
True Manifestation

18th|
+18|
+11|
+6|
+6|

19th|
+19|
+11|
+6|
+6|

20th|
+20|
+12|
+6|
+6|[/table]{table=head]Spells Per-Day
{table=head]Level | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9
1st | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
2nd | 4 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - | - | - |
3rd | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
4th | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - | - |
5th | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | - |
6th | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | - | - |
7th | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - |
8th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - | - |
9th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - |
10th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - | - |
11th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - |
12th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - |
13th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - | - |
14th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 | - |
15th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | - |
16th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2 | -|
17th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 1 |
18th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 |
19th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4| 4 | 4 | 3 |
20th | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 |
[/table][/table]

There it is.
Each manifestation skill allows for a dragon to spend a spell to manifest a draconic trait for one minute per spell level while in human form.
True manifestation allows them to manifest all traits for the price of one.
For claws and wings and breath, they do damage at the highest size available.

Jack_Simth

2012-12-23, 10:43 AM

I notice that Energized doesn't contain a clause that a dragon is never harmed by its own breath weapon (under the assumption that a dragon's control of its breath weapon is good enough to ensure that whatever residue it might come in contact with never exceeds its resistance).

For me this goes without saying, but just for the sake of eliminating any doubts.
Much like the clause about not being able to Summon stuff where a critter already is, and not being able to summon stuff in open air is part of the Conjouration School Header (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Conjuration), Breath Weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Breath-Weapon-Su-) are all supernatural, and do not harm the creature from which they originate. While it would go without saying, it's already been said in the base rules.

Btw, I support Starscream's suggestion for draconic personality disadvantages (details on you JS).
This is also the only plausible explanation to why they haven't already taken over the world.
They... umm... kind of are in the process of doing that, other than not usually initiating warfare. I've gotten to the point in the Dawn of Worlds game where I'm arbitrarily blowing up Dragon cities just so there will be lots of ruins lying around the world for when it's time to go adventuring.

And, of course, their hatred of slavery (inherited from their creator) means that they simply don't have much of a conquering bent. Doesn't matter how good someone is at competing if they don't get in the game.

Btw, for the record, I now see that you've made a better call than I did regarding what makes a dragon... a dragon.No such thing. My own take and my own preferences on what makes a dragon a dragon are just that - my own preferences. Just like preferring the colour green vs. the colour orange, neither is inherently better.

But yes: Pathfinder does seem somewhat allergic to dead levels. I'll see about integrating that, at least. Balancing it will get a bit trickier, though.

nonsi

2012-12-23, 10:57 AM

.
Allow me to suggest a small correction (wouldn't seem so at first glance, but bear with me) to your proposed Draconic Paragon class.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
1|+1|+2|+2|+2|Dragon Heritage: Ferocious
2|+2|+3|+3|+3|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting*, Divine Arcana
3|+3|+3|+3|+3|Dragon Heritage: Draconic Growth: Small
4|+4|+4|+4|+4|Skill Boon
5|+5|+4|+4|+4|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
6|+6/+1|+5|+5|+5|Dragon Heritage: Draconic Growth: Medium
7|+7/+2|+5|+5|+5|Skill Boon
8|+8/+3|+6|+6|+6|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
9|+9/+4|+6|+6|+6|Dragon Heritage: Energized
10|+10/+5|+7|+7|+7|Skill Boon
11|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+7|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
12|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+8|Dragon Heritage: Draconic Growth: Large
13|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+8|Skill Boon
14|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+9|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
15|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+9|Dragon Heritage: Energized
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+10|Skill Boon
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+10|+10|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+11|Dragon Heritage: Draconic Growth: Huge
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+11|Skill Boon
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+12|+1 Level of Sorcerer casting
[/table]

Skill Boon
The draconic paragon gains either Skill Focus or one of the skill-feats (does PF even have those?) as bonus feat.

Note: at first glance, this might seem too much, however . . .
- Skill Boon is more of a decoration than anything else, so that’s still practically 6 featureless levels (by the time you get to make something remotely significant out of them, skills don’t matter that much).
- The character would most definitely have to take Energized (on top of what the class provides) for early-level combat versatility, so those two are not really power changers. They just guarantee that a large dragon does have a breath weapon and that in a world filled with resistances & immunities, a huge dragon has at least 2.
- Without Ferocious or with delayed size increase, there isn't much point to this class.

So, in the end, compared to your proposed class, the big impact boils down to 3 extra heritage feats during the first 10 levels and 1 extra heritage feat during the next 10 levels (2 of which just being an expansion of an already existing repertoire). That’s not exactly game breaking in PF, where one gets a general feat every other level.

Notice that this class’ spellcasting is significantly inferior to that of Duskblade (not sure if Duskblade exists in PF, but a 3.5e tier-3 class is a solid baseline for comparison) and those 3 feats don’t really bridge this gap, so I believe my suggestions both even things up and ensure that full BAB progression doesn't go down the drains. Also, people don’t like dead levels.

Oh, and of course, I find “Draconic Growth” a much more suitable name than “Big”.

EDIT:
Ok, obviously your suggested class is superior to mine, but for the sake of common sense, it should have "Ferocious" as prereq on top of being a dragon.
Also, even though I detest shoehorning as a rule of thumb, this time I feel that starting at 3rd level you should shoehorn the bonus feats as given above.

Jack_Simth

2012-12-25, 09:34 AM

nonsi

2012-12-25, 12:36 PM

Couple of things with that....
"If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description." - inherited from D&D 3.5. So multiple Energized feats don't work (currently, I could change that, I suppose).

Second, I think I am going to end up revising the dragons down to 15 points... which means their base size category will change, and they'll lose the starting natural armor bonus, among other things. And I'll need to stop and revise many of the feats to accommodate that.

So... this is going to change rather noticeably. Grr.

See the bold text.
If you originally intended for Energized to provide different damage types when taken more than once, it's not stacking at all.

Also, in fantasy there are appearances of tiny dragons, so don't omit that option. Just reduce the advantages and/or offset them with appropriate disadvantages / flaws / penalties / . . .

Jack_Simth

2012-12-25, 02:59 PM

See the bold text.
If you originally intended for Energized to provide different damage types when taken more than once, it's not stacking at all.

Compare to the text of Spell Focus, however. It would need the extra wording to really allow it - if nothing else, now instead of being able to blast someone once every 1d4 rounds, you blast them twice every 1d4 rounds. Well, kind of - it's more complex than that, but I don't care to go over the math right now. You get it three times, and you can almost always blast continuously. Four times, and you're guaranteed to be able to blast someone with something.

Also, in fantasy there are appearances of tiny dragons, so don't omit that option. Just reduce the advantages and/or offset them with appropriate disadvantages / flaws / penalties / . . .
It's not completely out of the question as-is - see the Young Template (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/monsterAdvancement.html#young-creature-%28cr--1%29) - but on the race builder: The Dragon type costs 10 points, Tiny size is 4 points, and bare-minimum flight is 4 points. That's 18 points, as we (in this context, those involved in the same Dawn of Worlds game I am) seem to be agreeing on about 15 points for the build, means they'd need at least three points of negatives - slow speed is only 1. You're looking at either making stuff up, putting in things like light blindness (... how many legends have dragons afraid of sunlight?...) or taking severe ability score penalties - and that's rather... meh.

nonsi

2012-12-25, 05:14 PM

Meh or not, it works.
Who about this:
-4 Wis: Dragons are stupidly brave and stupidly curious.
-2 Con: Dragons are born somewhat frail.

Now, regarding your Dragon Paragon . . .

Still seems very wonky to me that theoretically your paragon dragon can reach level 20 without ever even taking Ferocious feat.
Yes, I know it’s nuts, but a resourceful player could do that just to make a point.

To me, the whole point of this class is to embody the might of dragons to its full potential.
This makes me come to the following suggestions regarding your proposed Dragon Paragon:

1. 1. Switch 1st level’s “Pinnacle” for Ferocious. I mean, it’s a full BAB iconic dragon: big, fire breathing, frightening mass of claws & fangs. Give it the built in ability to fight like one.

2. Apply the following feats as the class’ bonus feats (nearly the same as my previous proposal, but with a slight change):
Level Bonus Feat
================

3 Draconic Growth: Small
6 Draconic Growth: Medium
9 Draconic Energy* - breath weapon, naturally
12 Draconic Growth: Large
15 Frightful Presence* (sounds better than “Scary”) - once a dragon paragons becomes large, the next natural step is to be scary
18 Draconic Growth: Huge
* If the dragon already has this feat (at least once), you’re free to choose another draconic feat or a Fighter bonus feat.

3. Draconic Bonuses: call that one “Draconic Intuition” or “Draconic Boon”, or something else that ring better than “bonuses”.

4. Keep everything else as it is. The class on the overall is wonderful and requires no other changes.

nonsi

2012-12-25, 05:17 PM

Draconic Resilience:
DR is vastly superior to NA.
It should be no more than DR 1/- per two heritage feats.

Jack_Simth

2012-12-26, 02:23 PM

Draconic Resilience:
DR is vastly superior to NA.
It should be no more than DR 1/- per two heritage feats.
A couple of things:
First, it's DR/Magic, not DR/-. Big difference, there - DR/Magic affects very low-level NPC's, animals, and some demons & things; after maybe level five or ten, about half the melee stuff you encounter will bypass it (either because they have DR/Magic themselves, or they're using magic weapons). Meanwhile, very little of the melee stuff will bypass natural armor (main exception being touch attacks, which also bypass DR anyway).

Second: I disagree on your conclusion anyway. Have you checked the math?
When attack bonuses are close to AC bonuses, then:
Natural Armor makes you less likely to get hit by normal attacks, which negates the entire attack. Damage Resistance reduces the amount of damage you take from successful attacks.
So if the "base" target has AC 21, and the base attacker has a +10 attack bonus (50% chance to hit), dealing 2d6+5, over the course of 20 attacks:
Base: Takes 20d6+50 (ignoring crits), average 120
+5 Natural Armor: 10d6+25 (ignorning crits), average 60
DR 5: 20d6 (ignorning crits), average 70.

So in a roughly even AC vs. Attack Bonus case, more AC is better than more DR.

Now we change cases; the attack bonus is significantly higher than AC, and the attacker has Power Attack on a two-handed weapon.
Base target has AC 21, base attacker has +30 attack bonus (misses only on a 1). Still dealing 2d6+5 on a hit (before Power Attack), checking over the course of 20 attacks:
Base: Attacker uses Power Attacks for 11 (still misses only on a 1) meaning he deals 2d6+27 damage on a hit: Hits 19 times, 38d6+513, average 646
+5 Natural Armor: Attacker uses Power Attack for 6 (still misses only on a 1) meaning he deals 2d6+17 damage on a hit: Hits 19 times, 38d6+323, average 456
+5 Applicable DR: Attacker uses Power Attacks for 11 (still misses only on a 1) meaning he deals 2d6+27-5 (DR applies) damage on a hit: Hits 19 times, 38d6+418, average 551

So when attack bonus is significantly higher than AC bonuses, and the attacker makes use of Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, AC is significantly better than

You can do similar analyses for a few other cases - AC comes out even with DR in the case of a one-handed weapon with Power Attack when attack bonus is noticeably higher than AC; DR comes out ahead when AC is significantly higher than attack bonuses already (e.g., the swarm of mooks), because then the only hits are on nat-20's anyway. AC comes out a lot better when you start factoring in iterative attacks. And so on.

Overall, though, as nearly as I can figure, AC is better than DR - if the melee brutes act reasonably intelligently, anyway (which will not always be the case...). Make it DR/Magic (which I did), and it's much less useful.

Edit: Made some changes to Dragon Paragon - you're now getting a specific script of feats, although if you already have them, you can pick another Dragon Heritage feat. Also shuffled things around slightly, so they're every three levels starting at 1st.

nonsi

2012-12-27, 03:14 AM

A couple of things:
First, it's DR/Magic, not DR/-. Big difference...

I have no idea how I saw DR/Magic as DR/-.
This sure makes "vastly" inappropriate in this case.
Guess I should stop responding after midnight.

Second: I disagree on your conclusion anyway. Have you checked the math?
When attack bonuses are close to AC bonuses, then:
Natural Armor makes you less likely to get hit by normal attacks, which negates the entire attack. Damage Resistance reduces the amount of damage you take from successful attacks.
So if the "base" target has AC 21, and the base attacker has a +10 attack bonus (50% chance to hit), dealing 2d6+5, over the course of 20 attacks:
Base: Takes 20d6+50 (ignoring crits), average 120
+5 Natural Armor: 10d6+25 (ignorning crits), average 60
DR 5: 20d6 (ignorning crits), average 70.

So far so good.

So in a roughly even AC vs. Attack Bonus case, more AC is better than more DR.

Yes, but we both know this is hardly ever the case . . .

Now we change cases; the attack bonus is significantly higher than AC, and the attacker has Power Attack on a two-handed weapon.
Base target has AC 21, base attacker has +30 attack bonus (misses only on a 1). Still dealing 2d6+5 on a hit (before Power Attack), checking over the course of 20 attacks:
Base: Attacker uses Power Attacks for 11 (still misses only on a 1) meaning he deals 2d6+27 damage on a hit: Hits 19 times, 38d6+513, average 646
+5 Natural Armor: Attacker uses Power Attack for 6 (still misses only on a 1) meaning he deals 2d6+17 damage on a hit: Hits 19 times, 38d6+323, average 456
+5 Applicable DR: Attacker uses Power Attacks for 11 (still misses only on a 1) meaning he deals 2d6+27-5 (DR applies) damage on a hit: Hits 19 times, 38d6+418, average 551

This does seem conclusive.

So when attack bonus is significantly higher than AC bonuses, and the attacker makes use of Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, AC is significantly better than

That would be true, however . . .
1. You usually have no clue how hard it is to hit your opponents upon encounter, and the higher the level (and appropriate CRs) the less you wanna spend 2 - 4 rounds gambling your attack rolls.
2. Here's something you should be aware of (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/elusive-target--841/) (I categorize this one as: "If you get in the habit of seeing the whites of your enemy's eyes, don't leave home without it").
3. When DR kicks in, its effectiveness is 100%, whereas attack rolls are boolean (and everybody knows that reality doesn't obey statistics).

Edit: Made some changes to Dragon Paragon - you're now getting a specific script of feats, although if you already have them, you can pick another Dragon Heritage feat. Also shuffled things around slightly, so they're every three levels starting at 1st.

I notice that the feats shifted one level up. I'd put the bonus feats ahead of Draconic intuition (but I see why you did that and it's no biggy).
Also, I was arguing with myself if 3rd (now 4th) level feat should be Scales or Growth. What tilted thing in favor of Growth was the fact that if a player didn't take it on their own, then all they'd have was bite attack until 6th level. But since you changed their initial size to small, then it's no longer an issue.

Do you intend of having tiny dragons anymore or just as hatchlings ?

Jack_Simth

2012-12-27, 12:28 PM

I have no idea how I saw DR/Magic as DR/-.
This sure makes "vastly" inappropriate in this case.
Guess I should stop responding after midnight.
I've been there.

So far so good.

Yes, but we both know this is hardly ever the case . . .

This does seem conclusive.

That would be true, however . . .
1. You usually have no clue how hard it is to hit your opponents upon encounter, and the higher the level (and appropriate CRs) the less you wanna spend 2 - 4 rounds gambling your attack rolls.
2. Here's something you should be aware of (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-warrior--61/elusive-target--841/) (I categorize this one as: "If you get in the habit of seeing the whites of your enemy's eyes, don't leave home without it").
3. When DR kicks in, its effectiveness is 100%, whereas attack rolls are boolean (and everybody knows that reality doesn't obey statistics).

OK then. Consider a few other cases:
Base AC 21, Attack Bonus +15/+10, base damage 2d6+5, over 20 full attacks
Base: Hits on a 6/11; 75%/50% of the time. 25 hits, 50d6+125 damage, average 300
+5 NA: Hits on a 11/16; 50%/25% of the time. 15 hits, 30d6+75 damage, average 180
DR 5: Hits on a 6/11; 75%/50% of the time. 25 hits, 50d6 damage, average 175.
In this case, DR is just barely better than the natural armor.

Base AC 21, Attack Bonus +15/+10, base damage 2d6+10, over 20 full attacks
Base: Hits on a 6/11; 75%/50% of the time. 25 hits, 50d6+250 damage, average 425.
+5 NA: Hits on a 11/16; 50%/25% of the time. 15 hits, 30d6+150 damage, average 255.
DR 5: Hits on a 6/11; 75%/50% of the time. 25 hits, 50d6+125 damage, average 300.
In this case, AC is noticeably better than the natural armor.

Base AC 21, Attack Bonus +5, base damage 2d6+5, over 20 attacks
Base: Hits on a 16, 25% of the time. 5 hits, 10d6+25, average 60.
+5 NA: Hits on a 20, 5% of the time. 1 hit, 2d6+5, average 12.
DR 5: Hits on a 16, 25% of the time. 5 hits, 10d6, average 35.

I could keep this up for a while - there's a number of cases where DR is better than AC (lots of small attacks) - however, as the per-hit damage goes up, AC becomes progressively better (other than scenarios where even with the AC boost, the attacker would only miss on a nat-1, in which case you need to start including Power Attack differences for AC to be better).

There's a couple of categories where DR is better than AC:
1) Smaller base damage. The lower the damage of an individual attack, the more proportionally effective DR becomes.
2) Negligible attack bonuses: If your attacker can only hit you on a 20 anyway, more AC doesn't matter, because you still get hit just as often. DR is better, here.
3) Massive attack bonuses without power attack: If your attacker can hit you on a 2 regardless of the AC boost, then the DR does better.

The categories where AC is better than DR, however, are a bit more common (at least in my estimation):
1) Larger base damage. The higher the damage of an individual attack, the more the full negation of the attack from missing becomes important compared to the partial negation from DR.
2) Iterative Attacks. AC makes the follow up attacks considerably more likely to miss, which has a noticeable impact.
3) Two-handed (or otherwise increased) Power Attack applies.
4) Attacks where the damage isn't the main problem of the attack (e.g., they carry poison on them)

Combine that with it just being DR/Magic, and I'm pretty sure the AC is going to be more valuable in more circumstances. Some of that could just be different game expectations, however.

Do you intend of having tiny dragons anymore or just as hatchlings ?Probably just as Hatchlings, although I might if I develop reason to make more subraces. I could end up, for instance, making War Dragons with a medium base size (swap the Dex bonus and the Str penalty, set size to medium: Same RP cost), in which case, I'd probably also make Tiny dragons as well (drop the Built-in Bite and the skill training, and drop the ability scores to "mixed weakness" in that case (they'd end up as -6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int or some such after the size modifiers are taken into account). It's not overly likely, though.

nonsi

2012-12-28, 09:16 AM

JS, I notice that your Dragon Paragon class has some numeric inconsistencies here & there (levels 1 & 2 in the table; Pinnacle is gained every 3 levels, not 6...).
I'd suggest, just for "putting a stamp on it", that you read your own creation and correct whatever needs corrections.

Other than that, this project seems complete to me.

Jack_Simth

2012-12-28, 09:33 AM

JS, I notice that your Dragon Paragon class has some numeric inconsistencies here & there (levels 1 & 2 in the table; Pinnacle is gained every 3 levels, not 6...).
I did! Corrected table to match Pinnacle text.

I'd suggest, just for "putting a stamp on it", that you read your own creation and correct whatever needs corrections.
The catch with that: I suffer from the same problem that many people do when checking their own work: I've got a habit of seeing what I expect and/or intended, rather than what is actually there - and this happens a lot when something goes through multiple revisions. This is part of why newspapers have editors.

Other than that, this project seems complete to me.
Well, it won't really be complete until it's been play tested... but yeah, pretty much.