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Absol197
2012-12-21, 08:36 AM
Hey there! I was hoping for a little help with a project I'm working on!

I'm designing a campaign setting that is low magic. And when I say low-magic, I actually mean it. Perhaps not as low as, say, Middle-Earth, but definitely lower than D&D.

I'm currently re-working the magic system (really, typing up spells is the hardest part), and I've made some changes to the classes: rangers use hunter's tricks from the APG, and some of the monk's supernatural abilites have been swapped out; sorcerers and druids are gone; and clerics, wizards, and paladins are now prestige classes. The one problem I'm running into is bards.

Here's the situation: I want to keep a base class that characters who want to go straight into a caster can take, that doesn't seem too far off from their character concept. Technically, the way I have things working, a rogue or monk character would be able to qualify for a casting class just fine, but not everyone begins using those archetypes. The bard, at it's most basic, is a learner and a sage (technically, the class doesn't even need to remain called a bard).

So, the class I'm looking for would have the following features:
-Middle BAB;
-No spellcasting, and can't produce magical effects through music;
-Capable of expressing the following archetypes: cleric-in-training, neophyte wizard, leaned sage/wise-man, and the standard bard.

A lot of the bard class features are fine, like the jack-of-all-trades, bardic knowledge, and things like that. But the spellcasting and certain uses of bardic performance are too overt and magical for the setting. For balance, the class should be comparable to the barbarian, fighter, ranger, and/or rogue.

If any of you wonderful homebrewers could help, I'd really appreciate it!


~Phoenix~

AttilaTheGeek
2012-12-21, 09:16 AM
The bard, at it's most basic, is a learner and a sage (technically, the class doesn't even need to remain called a bard).

So, the class I'm looking for would have the following features:
-Middle BAB;
-No spellcasting, and can't produce magical effects through music;
-Capable of expressing the following archetypes: cleric-in-training, neophyte wizard, leaned sage/wise-man, and the standard bard.

It seems like what you're looking for is a bare-bones list of class features in a table, and then a whole bunch of archetypes to allow players to take it in lots of different directions. I want to ask what you mean by "standard bard"; if the class has no music and no magic, how can it express "standard bard"? If you're only going to use it in a single, short campaign, you might want to consider asking the player(s) who are interested exactly what they're looking for.

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-12-21, 09:26 AM
It looks like the class you're describing would better be named - The Scholar. A well educated class that has a learned outlook on things (turn bardic knowlege into - well knowledged or some such. As for the making it comparable to barbarian, fighter, ranger, and/or rogue...well I'll have to think on it, I may have a few ideas based on a few notes I have on a class I homebrewed years ago for a campaign...but we'll see on that. In the mean time, maybe we can have some people sound board ideas till we get some ideas. I'd be willing to try and make the base class if some more developments come of it.

Absol197
2012-12-21, 10:38 AM
It seems like what you're looking for is a bare-bones list of class features in a table, and then a whole bunch of archetypes to allow players to take it in lots of different directions. I want to ask what you mean by "standard bard"; if the class has no music and no magic, how can it express "standard bard"? If you're only going to use it in a single, short campaign, you might want to consider asking the player(s) who are interested exactly what they're looking for.

By standard bard, I would mean that wandering minstrel, jack-of-all-trades, knower of odd and esoteric things idea. The standard Pathfinder classes have lots of "build your own" class features, like rage powers, rogue talents, and hunter's tricks; perhaps adding in a similar array, and make a couple of them include using music to produce exceptional but not overtly magical effects. Fascination, inspiring courage, and other things like that are all things I think could work.

Breaking it down more, spellcasting classes basically define the characters mostly by which spells they select. A wizard chooses a school and a sorcerer chooses a bloodline, but otherwise most of the choice is down to spell selection. But if I'm getting rid of spells, there's not much left for differentiation, and so some flexability for the class gets lost. And removing (or at least majorly reworking) the other main class feature makes it even harder.

This isn't just for a single campaign; I plan on being able to reuse this setting again and again: either for my current group (we re-use the same worlds often), or when I inevitably and sadly must split from them, and find another group.


It looks like the class you're describing would better be named - The Scholar. A well educated class that has a learned outlook on things (turn bardic knowlege into - well knowledged or some such. As for the making it comparable to barbarian, fighter, ranger, and/or rogue...well I'll have to think on it, I may have a few ideas based on a few notes I have on a class I homebrewed years ago for a campaign...but we'll see on that. In the mean time, maybe we can have some people sound board ideas till we get some ideas. I'd be willing to try and make the base class if some more developments come of it.

You, that would be a good name. I was actually thinking the Sage, myself, but both work. I'm not sure which I like better. Like I said, one feature might be turning bardic music into select-from-a-list abilities that allow you to build towards different character archetypes, one including music. Not sure what to do with the missing magic, though, if anything even needs to be done with it.


~Phoenix~

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-12-21, 10:55 AM
You, that would be a good name. I was actually thinking the Sage, myself, but both work. I'm not sure which I like better. Like I said, one feature might be turning bardic music into select-from-a-list abilities that allow you to build towards different character archetypes, one including music. Not sure what to do with the missing magic, though, if anything even needs to be done with it.


Well, what are you doing for the ranger, who also has spells after a certain point? Are you keeping the Palidin?

Absol197
2012-12-21, 11:39 AM
I'm currently re-working the magic system (really, typing up spells is the hardest part), and I've made some changes to the classes: rangers use hunter's tricks from the APG, and some of the monk's supernatural abilites have been swapped out; sorcerers and druids are gone; and clerics, wizards, and paladins are now prestige classes. The one problem I'm running into is bards.
To 10 characters! Away!

~Phoenix~

Deepbluediver
2012-12-21, 11:49 AM
I'm sure there are more lying about, but I know of 2 spell-less bard classes off the top of my head.

The first one is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201346), although the songs might be too magic-ish for your tastes. (by Neoseraphi)

The second one is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263349) class, which seems to replace spells with potions, but the author seemed to like the flavor so maybe you will, too. (by Gorfnod)


Personally, I'm not sure just how much the bard will be able to do if you don't want any magic or magic-like abilities; one of the key roles of the class is usually as a buffer for your party, though you could probably refluff most of the stuff as morale bonuses or extraordinary abilities.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-21, 12:17 PM
Personally, I'm not sure just how much the bard will be able to do if you don't want any magic or magic-like abilities; one of the key roles of the class is usually as a buffer for your party, though you could probably refluff most of the stuff as morale bonuses or extraordinary abilities.

Yeah, this one. You could also look at some of the Archivist's Dark Knowledge abilities for more ideas on "smart people contributing to battle."

Absol197
2012-12-21, 12:40 PM
I'm sure there are more lying about, but I know of 2 spell-less bard classes off the top of my head.

The first one is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201346), although the songs might be too magic-ish for your tastes. (by Neoseraphi)

The second one is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263349) class, which seems to replace spells with potions, but the author seemed to like the flavor so maybe you will, too. (by Gorfnod)


Personally, I'm not sure just how much the bard will be able to do if you don't want any magic or magic-like abilities; one of the key roles of the class is usually as a buffer for your party, though you could probably refluff most of the stuff as morale bonuses or extraordinary abilities.

Thanks for the links, but I don't think they would fit very well. The first one is way way way too magical (at first level, your sword can attack for you while you play the lute!), and the second one is a bit too magical as well. Plus it uses "spell slots," which I've done my best to remove entirely.

Since you mentioned the bard's main ability as a buffer, here's a bit of background on the basics of the magic system I'm using:
It's a magic point system, based loosely on Mage: the Awakening. Magic points are rare and hard to come by, and a cost of 4 is really high. Level 5 spells are the highest level, and you can only get level 5 spells in at most 3 of the 10 schools. Several common effects haev also been switched around: invisibility is level 3, and you have to concentrate to maintain it, while flying is a level 5 spell, so it won't be seen almost at all. Damaging spells don't even start until level 3.

Everybody has magic points and those who can't cast spells can use them as action points, and characters have to "bond" with magical items to use all their powers, investing their magic points into the item, limiting their maximum pool. Spellcasters have to ration their magic points: between long lasting spells (anything with a duration of a day or longer must be invested in), magic items they want to haev active, those they want to use for their spells, and those they want to use as action points.

I mean, morale bonuses and such are perfectly welcome; I could see an ability that uses knowledge checks or abilities as a means of buffing your allies: basically, you've studied the opponent or tactics or somesuch to such a degree that you can give advice on how best to attack them, and/or direct them in battle. Another thing that could work is as more of a "leader" type, to borrow the 4e term.

I dunno; I'm obviously having trouble coming up with ideas myself, which is why I'm asking the Playground's assistance. It's tricky :smallsmile: . A good class for entry spellcasters that can stand on its own. Maybe I could look at the, what's it called, factotum? Do you think that might be a better base instead of the bard?


~Phoenix~

Deepbluediver
2012-12-21, 01:35 PM
If you really REALLY want a class called "bard" and to have it function entirely without magic, you might have to homebrew it yourself. If you focus on letting it boost Intellect and Charisma, they can make decent skill monkeys and act as the party face for social situations, though it leaves them a little short when it comes to actual combat.

I've never played (or even examined closely) the factotum class. As I recall from reading what other people wrote, they can shapeshift much like a druid; so does that violate your "no magic" clause?

Absol197
2012-12-21, 01:53 PM
If you really REALLY want a class called "bard" and to have it function entirely without magic, you might have to homebrew it yourself. If you focus on letting it boost Intellect and Charisma, they can make decent skill monkeys and act as the party face for social situations, though it leaves them a little short when it comes to actual combat.

I've never played (or even examined closely) the factotum class. As I recall from reading what other people wrote, they can shapeshift much like a druid; so does that violate your "no magic" clause?

Like I said, it doesn't need to be called "Bard;" I'm fine with changing the name, and both the given recommendations (Sage and Scholar) work very well. I like the skill list and other class features of the bard, except for the performance and spells class features. The problem is just that those are the two really big ones for that class, so I need to come up with something to replace them with. As for the "Homebrew it yourself" thing, that's why I came here :smallsmile: . I'm having trouble coming up with ideas, and based on the classes I've seen displayed here based on incredibly odd and out there ideas that work, I figured that someone here would be able to help.

As for the factotum, I've never read it either, but I think the idea is that they can mimic class features of other classes, so the shapeshifting would be mimicking wild shape. If that class feature no longer exists, then it's not a problem. Of course, I could be way off-base. I just don't know :smallsmile: .


~Phoenix~

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-12-21, 02:01 PM
Like I said, it doesn't need to be called "Bard;" I'm fine with changing the name, and both the given recommendations (Sage and Scholar) work very well. I like the skill list and other class features of the bard, except for the performance and spells class features. The problem is just that those are the two really big ones for that class, so I need to come up with something to replace them with. As for the "Homebrew it yourself" thing, that's why I came here :smallsmile: . I'm having trouble coming up with ideas, and based on the classes I've seen displayed here based on incredibly odd and out there ideas that work, I figured that someone here would be able to help.

As for the factotum, I've never read it either, but I think the idea is that they can mimic class features of other classes, so the shapeshifting would be mimicking wild shape. If that class feature no longer exists, then it's not a problem. Of course, I could be way off-base. I just don't know :smallsmile: .


I'm currently at my job, but will look at the bard features if I can over the weekend, as well as factotum. I think I might be able to at least get a rough version up for you for us to dabble with and modify. And you'll have the honor of my first class homebrew on the forum (not that I haven't made them on paper, just never have gotten them on here).

By the by, I love your idea for how magic works in your world. I find it very intriguing. I'll see if I can set the class up to naturally progress into those prestige classes a bit...about what level would you anticipate the prestiges to become available?

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-21, 02:08 PM
As for the factotum, I've never read it either, but I think the idea is that they can mimic class features of other classes, so the shapeshifting would be mimicking wild shape. If that class feature no longer exists, then it's not a problem. Of course, I could be way off-base. I just don't know :smallsmile:

The factotum is a jack-of-all trades guy, with a strong Int focus. He gets a touch of turn undead, a little bit of healing, a little bit of arcane casting, and a variety of abilities that use "Inspiration Points," a per-encounter resource. A lot of them revolve around using Int in place of other abilities, along with getting extra actions, bypassing defenses, and so on. The 19th level capstone is the ability to mimic extraordinary class abilities. The example you're talking about used Alter Self, I think.

Absol197
2012-12-21, 02:19 PM
I'm currently at my job, but will look at the bard features if I can over the weekend, as well as factotum. I think I might be able to at least get a rough version up for you for us to dabble with and modify. And you'll have the honor of my first class homebrew on the forum (not that I haven't made them on paper, just never have gotten them on here).

Groovy :smallsmile: ! Thanks a whole bunch!


By the by, I love your idea for how magic works in your world. I find it very intriguing. I'll see if I can set the class up to naturally progress into those prestige classes a bit...about what level would you anticipate the prestiges to become available?

I quite like it too. I guess calling it "low-magic" isn't quite right, but while technically "magic" is a lot more prevalent (everybody has at least 1 magic point to work with), it's much less obvious and powerful. Spending a magic point is technically using "Magic," but most individuals in the world would see it as putting forth extra effort, trying their hardest, pushing towards their limits, etc. It's a lot like Middle-Earth magic meets the Force, actually: the magic is everywhere, but it so subtle that it takes very rarified senses to notice it as such.

And level 6, to answer your question. You should be able to take your first prestige level at level 6.


The factotum is a jack-of-all trades guy, with a strong Int focus. He gets a touch of turn undead, a little bit of healing, a little bit of arcane casting, and a variety of abilities that use "Inspiration Points," a per-encounter resource. A lot of them revolve around using Int in place of other abilities, along with getting extra actions, bypassing defenses, and so on. The 19th level capstone is the ability to mimic extraordinary class abilities. The example you're talking about used Alter Self, I think.

That actually sounds very appropriate! so it seems we're looking for a fusion of bard and factotum. What book is factotum in? I've heard a lot about it, but I don't have it in any of my resources...


~Phoenix~

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-21, 02:24 PM
Dungeonscape. No, I don't know why.

Erik Vale
2012-12-21, 07:55 PM
Ok, I haven't bothered to read through all of this, I'm not a builder, however for magic less bards sticking to the social archetype, there is the Sycophant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210903). You could refluf the combat boosts/penalties as instrument playing, but it will do for all your social needs.

[As is stands, the class is almost completely useless in combat, but in the social whorl, only wizards could best it. Because wizards.]

dspeyer
2012-12-22, 01:33 AM
Thoughts...

Bardic Knowledge and Bardic Knack are now the heart of the class. Give both of them and make them stronger.

Some of bardic music can still exist as ex. It's always been on the border. Pre-battle oratory has a long tradition (note that this is pre-battle, not in-battle). There could be new uses. Marching music increases long-march speeds and decreases fatigue. Putting a long list of details to music lets you remember them. Maybe something for manipulating the emotions of a mob.

Gossip as a superpower. With a month of effort, a bard can determine which facts NPCs get with a DC 10 knowledge check.

Just to Browse
2012-12-23, 04:24 PM
A jack-of-all-trades class idea that allows you to build a jack-of-all-trades character is very entertaining. I think I can make a 10-level draft of a base class.

I request the following help:

creative uses of bardic music
someone to fill in any dead levels that I stop working on after 10
(from phoenix) PrC's that you want the mundane bard to take, so I can craft the class to enter them more easily
Specific ability requests from Phoenix, phoenix's players, or anyone else who wants to play the mundane bard
(mostly from phoenix) whether or not the bard should be highly focused on his music, or play like the party-face-rogue of older d&d editions

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-12-24, 08:03 AM
A jack-of-all-trades class idea that allows you to build a jack-of-all-trades character is very entertaining. I think I can make a 10-level draft of a base class.

I request the following help:

creative uses of bardic music
someone to fill in any dead levels that I stop working on after 10
(from phoenix) PrC's that you want the mundane bard to take, so I can craft the class to enter them more easily
Specific ability requests from Phoenix, phoenix's players, or anyone else who wants to play the mundane bard
(mostly from phoenix) whether or not the bard should be highly focused on his music, or play like the party-face-rogue of older d&d editions

I'm currently working on this, but you're more than welcome to add to mine once I get up the working copy on this thread?

NeoSeraphi
2012-12-24, 09:53 AM
The Dancing Blades class feature was written because, by WotC/Paizo rulings, carrying an instrument for a bard was strictly nerfing yourself compared to singing or dancing. You couldn't attack during the same round you performed if you actually carried an instrument. I always thought that was too unfair and basically restricted you far too much. However, I can understand why you would feel it's too magical for your game.

Unfortunately, I believe you're going to run into a rather predictable issue here. If you remove the bard's casting and his bardic music, you're going to have a skill monkey with the same HD, skill points, and skill list as the rogue, but no Sneak Attack or rogue talents. Sure, Jack of All Trades is nice, but you don't get that ability until fifth level or so. As you've posed it, there is no reason for anyone to want to play a bard.

For starters, there is absolutely no reason that a fighter should not be able to qualify for the paladin prestige class. You mentioned rogues and monks getting in to these prestige classes, but paladins are soldiers of the church. A fighter with ranks in Knowledge Religion and the right background could easily become a paladin.

Secondly, there is just no way to make this idea work, I fear. The Pathfinder bard is already basically a nerfed rogue with some magic to replace his lost combat skills. Take away the magic and you don't have anything left. Paizo took away the Bardic Knowledge check, leaving you with just the ability to make an appropriate Knowledge check untrained (which is absolutely useless if you reflavor it as the Sage or Scholar, why would your player take ranks in anything other than Knowledge skills then?)

The archivist has some interesting abilities, sure, but they are no replacement for combat ability, and the lost spellcasting is still devastating.

More importantly, why should an essentially base class for wizards and clerics have Medium BAB? A bookworm who spends most of his time researching or praying shouldn't be able to lift a blade, let alone as well as a back-stabbing rogue. Also, by removing wizards and sorcerers (and witches, I assume), you don't have any 1/2 BAB classes left, so it seems appropriate to leave it here (monsters have 1/2 BAB depending on their type, removing it from the PC classes entirely is a bit overpowered).

In my opinion, this class is essentially a blatant level tax for anyone who wants to gain magic. If that's how you want to play it, fine, but...

Let's see what I can come up with. As I said, Paizo Bardic Knowledge is useless for a sage. Jack of All Trades is too good to place earlier than 5th. So I honestly don't know what early level class features this guy should have, and the early ones are all that matter since the player will most likely prestige asap.

No armor proficiency, simple weapon proficiency, d6 HD and 1/2 BAB...probably good Will saves.

Some ideas for flavorful (and mostly useless) early class features:
Bonus on skill checks to decipher scrolls
Bonus on UMD checks to use scrolls
Ability to identify magic items with an Appraise check (at a high DC)


Hmm...yeah, I got nothing. In my honest opinion, just scrap the idea and tell your players if they're interested in a sage type of character, to play a Scroll Scoundrel rogue (arcane) or a Sanctified Rogue (divine). Without spells or music, the bard and the rogue are just too similar.

Just to Browse
2012-12-24, 10:14 AM
I'm currently working on this, but you're more than welcome to add to mine once I get up the working copy on this thread?

Well hurry up, it's winter break and I'm bored!! :smallwink:

@NeoSeraphi: I think it's something that could be done, you just need 'tricks' or 'bardic knacks' that explicitly seem not-magic but provide similar benefits. Specifically I was thinking about the not-magical abilities the factotum got, and bonus overlapping to encouraging a few levels of dip before taking fighter 2 and going prestige paladin or whatever.

And you're spot on about what the class is--once you cut out magic, you have an inferior rogue, but that just means the bard will need some un-rogue-like buffs (high BAB and better saves are the first things that come to mind). Another thing that could help is making at least one archetype bluff-focused so that you can get feints in for low AC at the cost of a skill check you'll almost always make.

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-12-24, 10:21 AM
Well hurry up, it's winter break and I'm bored!! :smallwink:

@NeoSeraphi: I think it's something that could be done, you just need 'tricks' or 'bardic knacks' that explicitly seem not-magic but provide similar benefits. Specifically I was thinking about the not-magical abilities the factotum got, and bonus overlapping to encouraging a few levels of dip before taking fighter 2 and going prestige paladin or whatever.

And you're spot on about what the class is--once you cut out magic, you have an inferior rogue, but that just means the bard will need some un-rogue-like buffs (high BAB and better saves are the first things that come to mind). Another thing that could help is making at least one archetype bluff-focused so that you can get feints in for low AC at the cost of a skill check you'll almost always make.

I'm working on it! But holidays are my busiest times! I'm hoping to have something tonight or wednesday. Can't tomorrow because of required family stuff.

One goal I have for this homebrew is to make a portion of this class resemble a bard, but have it expand further out and make it unique, so it's not a bard fix for the setting, but a class on its own that matches the setting. So it won't be in as much competition as the rogue as neo mentions. I'm think Hit die should be at d6.

Just to Browse
2012-12-24, 11:41 AM
I'll try to keep quiet till I see something written up, but I'd recommend at least giving the bard d8, assuming your writeup is trying to capture the essence of a charismatic, swashbuckling minstrel. Any melee character is going to be in dire need of hit points, and the "bard" will probably have a lower Con than most because of MAD.

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-12-24, 11:44 AM
I'll try to keep quiet till I see something written up, but I'd recommend at least giving the bard d8, assuming your writeup is trying to capture the essence of a charismatic, swashbuckling minstrel. Any melee character is going to be in dire need of hit points, and the "bard" will probably have a lower Con than most because of MAD.

Good point, but we'll see. It's all subject to change anyway, so I might as well keep it one way and then modify it once its out so that I keep a clear idea. I don't mind you speaking up because it gives me things to consider as I begin to make it. :smallsmile:

(also, I'm not quite as well versed in PF as 3.5, so your help will be appreciated)

Just to Browse
2012-12-24, 01:44 PM
Good point, but we'll see. It's all subject to change anyway, so I might as well keep it one way and then modify it once its out so that I keep a clear idea. I don't mind you speaking up because it gives me things to consider as I begin to make it. :smallsmile:

(also, I'm not quite as well versed in PF as 3.5, so your help will be appreciated)

Oh, this is a PF thread?

EDIT: Wow, it's even in the thread title.

... I'll be honest, I didn't even notice. I might have to do some googling.

TheWombatOfDoom
2012-12-24, 01:48 PM
Oh, this is a PF thread?

EDIT: Wow, it's even in the thread title.

... I'll be honest, I didn't even notice. I might have to do some googling.

Is it sad that the same thing happened to me which caused me to add the addendum to the end?

dspeyer
2012-12-24, 03:15 PM
Some of our confusion comes from conflating several archetypes. The wandering minstrel, barbarian loremaster and civilized composer for an orchestra don't have all that much in common. Still, we can stick them all together, and that may allow us to get enough features for a balanced class.

Just to Browse
2012-12-24, 03:58 PM
Some of our confusion comes from conflating several archetypes. The wandering minstrel, barbarian loremaster and civilized composer for an orchestra don't have all that much in common. Still, we can stick them all together, and that may allow us to get enough features for a balanced class.

I don't think getting those all together is even necessary. The OP is looking for cleric-in-training, wizard-in-training, the scholar, and the wandering minstrel, which seems to boil down to a wide breadth of knowledge skills and using a non-Strength attribute to hit. That plus mundane stunts seems like it would work quite well.

dspeyer
2012-12-24, 04:16 PM
Oh, why not...

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|0|0|2|2|Bardic Knowledge, Inspire Courage +1
2nd|1|0|3|3|Bardic Knack
3rd|2|1|3|3|Inspire Determination +1
4th|3|1|4|4|Jack of all Trades
5th|3|1|4|4|Bolster Will +2
6th|4|2|5|5|Spread Gossip, Recognize Gossip
7th|5|2|5|5|Marching Song
8th|6|2|6|6|Mnemonic
9th|6|3|6|6|Inspire Courage +2
10th|7|3|7|7|Skill Mastery (3)
11th|8|3|7|7|Inspire Determination +2
12th|9|4|8|8|Lesser Guide Allies
13th|9|4|8|8|Bolster Will +4
14th|10|4|9|9|Skill Mastery (6)
15th|11|5|9|9|Distracting Performance
16th|12|5|10|10|Guide Allies
17th|12|5|10|10|Inspire Courage +4
18th|13|6|11|11|Master of all Trades
19th|14|6|11|11|Inspire Determination +4
20th|15|6|12|12|Bolster Will +8, Greater Guide Allies[/table]
8+int skills, d8 hd

Bardic Knowledge(ex): You may use bard level in place of ranks for any knowledge skill.

Inspire Courage(ex): Before a battle, you may give an inspiring performance. This performance takes 5 minutes and gives a morale bonus on attacks and damage for the duration of the battle. The bonus increases by 1 if the skill used is perform(oratory).

Bardic Knack(ex): Add half your bard level to all skill checks.

Inspire Determination(ex): Like inspire courage, but before a difficult non-violent task and the bonus applies to skill checks.

Jack of all Trades(ex): Treat all skills as trained.

Bolster Will(ex): Use a performance to grant allies a bonus on will saves against emotional effects, regardless of those effects' origin. The bonus increases by 1 if the skill is perform(singing).

Spread Gossip(ex): Choose information which you want to be widely known. Roll d20 + bard level + cha mod. The DC to get everyone in a town of less than 100 people to know this with a dc 15 knowledge check is 15. Apply the following modifiers:

{table]Every doubling of the number of people|+2
The people are spread out over a large area1|+5
The information is false, but you can reliably2 convince people of it| +2
The information is false, and you cannot reliably2 convince people of it| +5
The people of interest are spread throughout a larger population|+3[/table]
1 you must travel across the area in question, which may increase the time needed considerably
2 you can reliably tell a lie if your modifier for the bluff check, after circumstance modifiers, exceeds 10


Recognize Gossip(ex): When making knowledge checks, you are aware of any facts that came from another bard's Spread Gossip ability.

Marching Song(ex): When traveling a long distance or performing some other highly repetitive task, you can improve productivity by 20% and give a bonus on saves against weariness by +2 with a performance. If the performance is of highly rhythmic music, this increases to 25% and +3.

Mnemonic(ex): You can memorize long strings of arbitrary information.

Skill Mastery(ex): Select this many skills, you may take 10 on them even when under pressure.

Guide Allies(ex): When you and up to 5 allies are attempting the same skill at once, you may voluntarily take a penalty on your check up to your bard level to give your allies a bonus. At first the bonus is half the penalty, then equal, then double.

Distracting Performance(ex): You can hold everyone's attention. Attempts to notice what your allies are doing take a penalty equal to half your performance check.

Master of all Trades(ex): You can take 10 on all skill checks.

Absol197
2012-12-25, 01:50 PM
The Dancing Blades class feature was written because, by WotC/Paizo rulings, carrying an instrument for a bard was strictly nerfing yourself compared to singing or dancing. You couldn't attack during the same round you performed if you actually carried an instrument. I always thought that was too unfair and basically restricted you far too much. However, I can understand why you would feel it's too magical for your game.

For starters, there is absolutely no reason that a fighter should not be able to qualify for the paladin prestige class. You mentioned rogues and monks getting in to these prestige classes, but paladins are soldiers of the church. A fighter with ranks in Knowledge Religion and the right background could easily become a paladin.

That's actually what I was planning. Fighters (and possibly rangers) would be the best way to enter the Paladin prestige class would be through martial classes.


Unfortunately, I believe you're going to run into a rather predictable issue here. If you remove the bard's casting and his bardic music, you're going to have a skill monkey with the same HD, skill points, and skill list as the rogue, but no Sneak Attack or rogue talents. Sure, Jack of All Trades is nice, but you don't get that ability until fifth level or so. As you've posed it, there is no reason for anyone to want to play a bard.

Secondly, there is just no way to make this idea work, I fear. The Pathfinder bard is already basically a nerfed rogue with some magic to replace his lost combat skills. Take away the magic and you don't have anything left. Paizo took away the Bardic Knowledge check, leaving you with just the ability to make an appropriate Knowledge check untrained (which is absolutely useless if you reflavor it as the Sage or Scholar, why would your player take ranks in anything other than Knowledge skills then?)

The archivist has some interesting abilities, sure, but they are no replacement for combat ability, and the lost spellcasting is still devastating.

The Pathfinder ninja class has most of those features in common with the rogue, but it is still a very unique class based on its class features. I'm sure it can be done, I just don't have any good ideas, so I'm asking for help.


More importantly, why should an essentially base class for wizards and clerics have Medium BAB? A bookworm who spends most of his time researching or praying shouldn't be able to lift a blade, let alone as well as a back-stabbing rogue. Also, by removing wizards and sorcerers (and witches, I assume), you don't have any 1/2 BAB classes left, so it seems appropriate to leave it here (monsters have 1/2 BAB depending on their type, removing it from the PC classes entirely is a bit overpowered).

This is because of the way that that base attack bonuses and such are related. Because every character has Magic Points (as I explained a little up-thread), I need a way to determine how many people have. Every character has a base magic bonus fromt heir class, so even martial classes improve their magical ability a little. Basically, you're BMB is the inverse of your BAB, and I don't want any base class to have max BMB. Which means no 1/2 BAB base classes. That was kinda the point. Sorry I didn't mention that earlier, though.


In my opinion, this class is essentially a blatant level tax for anyone who wants to gain magic. If that's how you want to play it, fine, but...

Once again, that's why I'm asking for help, trying to find a way to make the class interesting enough that it's no longer a "Class tax," and it's actually an interesting choice. I think it can be done, with the assistance of sufficiently creative people.


Well hurry up, it's winter break and I'm bored!! :smallwink:

@NeoSeraphi: I think it's something that could be done, you just need 'tricks' or 'bardic knacks' that explicitly seem not-magic but provide similar benefits. Specifically I was thinking about the not-magical abilities the factotum got, and bonus overlapping to encouraging a few levels of dip before taking fighter 2 and going prestige paladin or whatever.

Yes, that's what I was thinking!


I'm working on it! But holidays are my busiest times! I'm hoping to have something tonight or wednesday. Can't tomorrow because of required family stuff.

It's okay, take your time! Thanks a lot for all your help :smallsmile: !


One goal I have for this homebrew is to make a portion of this class resemble a bard, but have it expand further out and make it unique, so it's not a bard fix for the setting, but a class on its own that matches the setting. So it won't be in as much competition as the rogue as neo mentions. I'm think Hit die should be at d6.

Hit Die needs to to be d8; that's just how base classes in Pathfinder work.


Oh, why not...

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|0|0|2|2|Bardic Knowledge, Inspire Courage +1
2nd|1|0|3|3|Bardic Knack
3rd|2|1|3|3|Inspire Determination +1
4th|3|1|4|4|Jack of all Trades
5th|3|1|4|4|Bolster Will +2
6th|4|2|5|5|Spread Gossip, Recognize Gossip
7th|5|2|5|5|Marching Song
8th|6|2|6|6|Mnemonic
9th|6|3|6|6|Inspire Courage +2
10th|7|3|7|7|Skill Mastery (3)
11th|8|3|7|7|Inspire Determination +2
12th|9|4|8|8|Lesser Guide Allies
13th|9|4|8|8|Bolster Will +4
14th|10|4|9|9|Skill Mastery (6)
15th|11|5|9|9|Distracting Performance
16th|12|5|10|10|Guide Allies
17th|12|5|10|10|Inspire Courage +4
18th|13|6|11|11|Master of all Trades
19th|14|6|11|11|Inspire Determination +4
20th|15|6|12|12|Bolster Will +8, Greater Guide Allies[/table]
8+int skills, d8 hd

Bardic Knowledge(ex): You may use bard level in place of ranks for any knowledge skill.

Inspire Courage(ex): Before a battle, you may give an inspiring performance. This performance takes 5 minutes and gives a morale bonus on attacks and damage for the duration of the battle. The bonus increases by 1 if the skill used is perform(oratory).

Bardic Knack(ex): Add half your bard level to all skill checks.

Inspire Determination(ex): Like inspire courage, but before a difficult non-violent task and the bonus applies to skill checks.

Jack of all Trades(ex): Treat all skills as trained.

Bolster Will(ex): Use a performance to grant allies a bonus on will saves against emotional effects, regardless of those effects' origin. The bonus increases by 1 if the skill is perform(singing).

Spread Gossip(ex): Choose information which you want to be widely known. Roll d20 + bard level + cha mod. The DC to get everyone in a town of less than 100 people to know this with a dc 15 knowledge check is 15. Apply the following modifiers:

{table]Every doubling of the number of people|+2
The people are spread out over a large area1|+5
The information is false, but you can reliably2 convince people of it| +2
The information is false, and you cannot reliably2 convince people of it| +5
The people of interest are spread throughout a larger population|+3[/table]
1 you must travel across the area in question, which may increase the time needed considerably
2 you can reliably tell a lie if your modifier for the bluff check, after circumstance modifiers, exceeds 10


Recognize Gossip(ex): When making knowledge checks, you are aware of any facts that came from another bard's Spread Gossip ability.

Marching Song(ex): When traveling a long distance or performing some other highly repetitive task, you can improve productivity by 20% and give a bonus on saves against weariness by +2 with a performance. If the performance is of highly rhythmic music, this increases to 25% and +3.

Mnemonic(ex): You can memorize long strings of arbitrary information.

Skill Mastery(ex): Select this many skills, you may take 10 on them even when under pressure.

Guide Allies(ex): When you and up to 5 allies are attempting the same skill at once, you may voluntarily take a penalty on your check up to your bard level to give your allies a bonus. At first the bonus is half the penalty, then equal, then double.

Distracting Performance(ex): You can hold everyone's attention. Attempts to notice what your allies are doing take a penalty equal to half your performance check.

Master of all Trades(ex): You can take 10 on all skill checks.

Hey, thanks! Christmas/family stuff is in taking my time right now, but I'll take a closer look as soon as I can :smallsmile: !


~Phoenix~

Just to Browse
2012-12-25, 10:31 PM
Meow, answer mah questions!!

creative uses of bardic music
someone to fill in any dead levels that I stop working on after 10
(from phoenix) PrC's that you want the mundane bard to take, so I can craft the class to enter them more easily
Specific ability requests from Phoenix, phoenix's players, or anyone else who wants to play the mundane bard
(mostly from phoenix) whether or not the bard should be highly focused on his music, or play like the party-face-rogue of older d&d editions

lt_murgen
2012-12-28, 09:39 PM
Here is a thread on a Bard variant I worked up for a contest. Turns him from a bard into a non-magical healer.

Very useful in a non-magical world

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263206