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View Full Version : A quick and dirty Paladin fix {{Please critque}}



ngilop
2012-12-25, 02:33 PM
Paladin
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Smite Evil 1/day, Aura of Good, Detect Evil|—|—|—|—

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Divine Grace, Lay on Hands|—|—|—|—

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Aura of Courage, Divine Health|1|—|—|—

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Turn Undead, Justice|1|—|—|—

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Smite Evil 2/day, Special Mount|1|—|—|—

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Remove Disease 1/day|2|—|—|—

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Heroic Presence|2|1|—|—

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Halo of Light|2|1|—|—

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Righteous Warrior|2|1|—|—

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Smite Evil 3/day|3|2|1|—

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3||3|2|1|—

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Remove Disease 2/day|3|2|1|—

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Aura of Sanctification|3|3|2|1

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4||4|3|2|1

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5| Smite Evil 4/day|4|3|2|1

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5||4|4|3|2|1

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Zeal|4|4|3|2|1

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Remove Disease 3/day|5|4|3|2|1

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6||5|5|4|3|2

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Smite Evil 5/day Angelic Being|5|5|4|3|2

[/table]
Alignment: Lawful Good
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge(nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge(religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex),and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

Smite Evil (Su): Once per day plus an additional times per day equal to her Constitution modifier, as a swift action, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with her melee attacks. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 3 extra point of damage per paladin level. these bonus last untill the end of the round. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.

Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Healing a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level times her (Wisdom modifier plus her Charisma modifier) Using lay on hands is a standard action. A paladin may Lay on Hands an additional time per day at 6th level and every 6th levels thereafter.

Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 20 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead. At 9th level the radius increases to 30 feet. The bonus to saves increases by 1 every 5th level after 3rd.

Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Turn Undead (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

Spells: Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance.

To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Paladin. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. In addition The paladin does have access to any one domain from the following selection, gaining the spells as well as the the domain ability; Community, Courage, Glory, Good, Healing, Inquisition, Law, Nobility, Protection, Purification, Retribution, Strength, or War. The paladin cast domain spells at the following levels
{table=head]Domain Spell Level|Paladin Level
1st| 3rd
2nd| 4th
3rd| 6th
4th| 8th
5th| 10th
6th| 12th
7th| 14th
8th| 16th
9th| 18th
[/table]

A paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a cure spell in its place. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.

Through 2nd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 3rd level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level -3 (minimum one).

Additional Spells for the paladin's Spell List
1st Command, Deific Vengeance, Foundation of Stone, Shield of Faith,

2nd Aid, Consecrate, Demon Dirge, Devil Blight, Lesser Restoration, Lesser Visage of the Deity, Spiritual Weapon

3rd Divien Power, Magic Vestment, Mass Aid, Protection from Energy, Mass Resist Energy

4th Dismissal, Divine Agility, Visage of the Deity, Mass Shield of Faith, Righteous Might, Sheltered Vitality

5th Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Greater Command, Greater Visage of the Deity, Heroe's Feast, Holy Word, Life's Grace, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Superior Resistance.

Special Mount (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil (see below). This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin). If a paladin so choses, she may wait until later levels to aquire a more powerful mount. A paladin may wait untill 7th level to gain the service of a Pegasus or a Unicorn(if female). Or untill 8th to gain the service of a Griffon. A paladins level for determining a mount's special ability for a griffon is considered 3 less, while for a pegasus or Unicorn it is 2 less.

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s class level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Justice (Su): A paladin may sacrifice 2 uses of her Smite Evil to grant all of her allies the ability to make their next attack made within 3 rounds to act as a smite evil, using the paladin's level for damage and Charisma for attack bonus.

Remove Disease (Sp): At 6th level, a paladin can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, once per day. She can use this ability one additional time per day for every 6th level afterwards.

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

THE PALADIN’S MOUNT
The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well. A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats).

{table]Paladin Level|Bonus HD|Natural Armor Adj.|Str Adj.|Int|Special

5th–7th|+3|+4|+1|6|Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws

8th–10th|+6|+6|+2|7|Improved speed, Command creatures of its kind

11th–14th|+9|+8|+3|8|Spell resistance

15th–17th|+12|+10|+4|9| Fast Healing, Celestial creature.

18th-20th|+15|+12|+5|10| Improved Spell Reistance, Spell-Like Abilities.
[/table]

Paladin’s Mount Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the mount’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.

Bonus HD: Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Natural Armor Adj.: The number on the table is an improvement to the mount’s existing natural armor bonus.

Str Adj.: Add this figure to the mount’s Strength score.

Int: The mount’s Intelligence score.

Empathic Link (Su): The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically. Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.

Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar (see Familiars).

Improved Evasion (Ex): When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.

Share Spells: At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount. The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).

Share Saving Throws: For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.

Improved Speed (Ex): The mount’s speed increases by 10 feet.

Command (Sp): Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if it’s being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount’s daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 paladin’s level + paladin’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect.

Spell Resistance (Ex): A mount’s spell resistance equals its master’s paladin level + 5. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mount’s spell resistance.

Fast Healing (Ex): The mount gains Fast Healing 2

Celestial Creature: The mount gains the Celestial Creature template.

Improved Spell Resistance (Ex): The mount's spell resistance increases by an amount equal to the paladins Charisma Modifier.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): The mount gains the following spell-like abilities
Bless 2/day, Sanctuary 2/day, Cure Light Wounds 1/day, Aid 1/day Lesser Restoration 1/day

Heroic Presence (Ex): At 7th level all allies within the paladin's Aura of Courage gain a bonus to saves against charm and compulsion effects and spells with the [Evil] descriptor equal to the paladin’s Charisma modifier.

Halo of Light {Su}: At 8th level the paladin can radiate light as a torch. Supressing or activating the light is a swift action. In addition the paladin is able to burst forth the inherent light surrounding illuminating her giving allies a bonus to attacks equal to the paladin's Charisma modifier and blinding evil enimies within 30 feet of the paladin. The blind lasts for 1 round while the bonus to attack last 1 minute. The blind is overcome with a succesful Reflex save at DC 10 + 1/2 the paladin's level + the paladin's Charisma modifier. Halo of Light is suppressed for 5 rounds after using it in this way.

Righteous Warrior {Su}: An evil outsider that is damaged by the paladin's Smite Evil suffers from a Banishment effect; the DC to resist is 10+1/2 the paladin's level+ the paladin's Charisma modifier. An Undead that is damaged by the paladin's smite is subject to a Disruption effect; the DC to resist is 10+1/2 the paladin's level+ the paladin's CHarisma modifier.

Aura of Sanctification {Su}: At 13th level all those affected by the paladin's Aura of Courage also are under the effects of a double strength Protection from Evil. In addition the paladin's aura of good dispels hostile magic from an evil source as if affected by greater dispel magic cast at the paladins level.

Zeal {Ex}: At 17th level as a full round action a paladin can make multiple attacks. The first attack is at his full Base Attack Bonus and each successive attack after the first suffers a cumulative -2 penalty. A paladin may make any number of attacks untill he either misses or there are no more oppoents. Each successful attack while under the effects of zeal deal an extra 2d8 holy damage, 1d4 fire damage, 1d4 cold damage, and 1d4 Electrical damage.

Angelic Being {Ex}: At 20th level a paladin gains the good subtype and the following abilities. Darkvision 60 feet, DR 8/-, Resistance to acid, cold and electricity 15, and spell resistance 25 + Charisma modifier. All attacks the paladin attempts are treated as good aligned.

ngilop
2012-12-25, 05:33 PM
Ok with this paladin fix, i gave access to more spells

as well as cut out dead levels with some paladin-esque abilities.

as well as give him a suitible capstone ability that I would expect from an exemplar of exalted goodness.

I hope that these minor changes are enought o bring the class up to a 'tier' 3 designation. but if not,t hats no biggie.

ngilop
2013-01-04, 10:31 PM
just relaized that I did not have 5th levels spells on my table, that is now fixed.

Still hoping that this bumped the paladin up at least 1 'tier'.. if not 2

Zman
2013-01-04, 10:48 PM
So, it looks like you've added a descent amount of new abilities, new spells and fifth level Paladin spells, as well as a few minor tweaks.

I honk you've gotten to low tier 4, but haven't altered some major problems with the class.

Here are a couple of issues as I see them and some proposed fixes.

Lay on hands is unclear as to use. Charisma mod +2 times per day.

Smite Evil number of uses is still low, maybe use base plus Cha mod per day?

Cure disease once per week is a long time, once per day is good.

The Paladin is still very MAD, change casting to Cha goes along way to bumping the class up.

Will save is bad, give him good Will, he needs it. It doesnt make sense for a Paladin to have a bad will save.

Paladin Casting is difficult to use and has a high opportunity cost. Give them Battle Blesing as a class feature. Swift action spells and Cha to casting are enough to seriously boost the paladin.

Mount is still weak and can be a liability. Give the Paladins mount some love.


Hope this helps, as you probably know. I've given my win Paladin fix ago as well.

TopCheese
2013-01-05, 09:16 AM
What you should do is take the Pathfinder Paladin and boost it instead of the 3.5 paladin.

Pathfinder Paladin is hiiiigh tier 4 to Mid tier 3 to begin with. I think if you pumped that up you can get to tier 2.

One thing I like to do is mix the summoners spell list and the paladins. Basically make the paladin cast divine version of arcane spells but allow the paladin to keep the buffs/other spells from his original list. Essentially his god is giving him divine power to smite his foes with his weapon or with his magic.

Give him spells/day and spell known as a summoner. Let him keep the summon line as spells for some "holy backup".

I'll need to not be on my phone to do this but I'll post a better example later.

P.S: You may be told that the pathfinder paladin isn't a paladin.. Hogwash I say!

ngilop
2013-01-06, 12:25 AM
my sole issue with giving the paladin summoner spells.. is that 90% of them are no way even remotely refluffable to be anything close to holy warrior related.


changing cure disease to per day is simple enouhg DONE!

I have yet to see a paladin mount be a liabaility, but then again i do not play with optimizing groups, and that is not something i want to build any of my classes around.

I will change the wording for lay on hands to make it clearer.

also.. any more spells that i could place on the paladin spell list that you can think of? i am definly thinking i need another mm.. 4 or more spells at least for 5th level.

toapat
2013-01-06, 12:47 AM
pretty much every actual issue of Paladin is unaddressed

Smite Evil: the damage is way too high, the uses too low. I prefer to make it a round long buff that applies until your next turn, so you can use it on AoOs, as well as removing that abomnable melee only requirement.

Lay on Hands is basically too weak no matter what.

the spellcasting is not actually handled correctly, adding 5ths means you need to be pulling 9ths from cleric, not what is normally a 5th-6th level spell. Look at Glory of the Martyr and Divine Sacrifice for standard paladin spell investments, not at Break Enchantment/4th. Wisdom casting is able to singlehandedly strangle the paladin into T5

Remove disease is still as useless a class feature as ever. you can have an Aura of permanent remove disease and it STILL wouldnt be good. The best thing you can do with it is sub it immediately for something else

Aura of Courage: Still a postage Stamp of uselessness

Mount: Still a liability as ever without a pile of feats

Perma Glow: Actually useless. You have had a sword that can do that since 3rd level.

Zeal: Oh, goody, a class feature that Entirely goes against the entire class. Precision damage? none

Aura of Sactification: you actually want Holy Aura

Angelic Being: Rename Hope Avatar

ngilop
2013-01-06, 02:25 PM
ok, so i'll make the mount what toapat wants

Lay on hands is good, its not usppoed to be a main source ofhealing but a backup last resort. I will not be changing that


Can I get some advice on what spells you want me to put in?

and the rest of the class is useless, well i do not know how to correct those msiatke


and where do you see precision damage? liek honesltry WHERE?!?!?

and NO i do not want holy aura. I want double strenth protectionf orm evil.. this wholeentire thing is abaout ANTI EVIL. and inc ase you missed it holy aura is everything not just evil...

Can I get a non toapat reading on what is the actual issues with a palaidn, I have had enough expeirnce with her 'critiques' to know for the ost part she is saying 'you dumb lulz' or 'mine is better do what i do'

anyways chekc out the new and imporved toapot version of mount.

Zman
2013-01-06, 02:40 PM
Can I get a non toapat reading on what is the actual issues with a palaidn, I have had enough expeirnce with her 'critiques' to know for the ost part she is saying 'you dumb lulz' or 'mine is better do what i do'

anyways chekc out the new and imporved toapot version of mount.

The major issues are MAD.
High Opportunity Cost Casting.
Mount Liability.(I'm assuming your latest update was a joke.)
Feat Starvation.

Simplistic solution it Cha replaces Wisdom for Casting.
Battle Blessing as a bonus feat.
Improve Mount, give options for additional mount choices.
Give a pair of Bonus feats.


That would pretty much do it IMO. Granted, I may be biased as it was what I chose to do. Battle Blessing was a Toapat suggestion I chose to use and think it is a good suggestion as it saves the Paladin from being forced to take it as a feat.

Edit: You suggested it first, and it's a good suggestion.m why don't you follow it?

Hope this helps.

I would appreciate a PEACH of my Classes Fix.

ngilop
2013-01-06, 03:07 PM
actually I gave you some suggestions and critique of your paladin, not only did you ingore most of what i said, but you actually gave topat credit for soemthing i suggessted.

Zman
2013-01-06, 05:22 PM
actually I gave you some suggestions and critique of your paladin, not only did you ingore most of what i said, but you actually gave topat credit for soemthing i suggessted.

I listened to your suggestions, he'll even added Battle Blessing. You are right, I mistaking lay gave toapat credit for that suggestion.

As to your other suggestions, I did not like them nor feel they were necessary for what I was trying to accomplish. And I see you have completely taken your own advice about Battle Blessing, it was a great suggestion I chose to implement for all Paladin Spellcasting.

ngilop
2013-01-06, 06:03 PM
I did not give the paladin batttle blessing for one good reason.

PCs in my campaign worlds get a lot more feats, actually I do what PF has done and give feats every odd level. so paladin goes from having 7 feats
to 10. SO paladins can get it wihout 'gimping' their feat choice.

Not to mention feats that work off of aura of courage ( that is useless according to toapat), halo of light, and yes of all things.. remove disease though THOSE are going to have to be majorly reworked as they are done times/day instead of week.

and does anybody else see how the topat spell logic falls apart. according to toapat paladisn should be casting 3-5th level spells in theri 1st level spell slost and 7-9th level spells in their 4th level spell slots..

really I was half tmeped to just write down GATE and MIRACLE as first level spells becxuase of course accoridng to topapat that why it should do. and maybe toss in a coupled more zeros in teh whole paladin mount fiasoc

which I compelty fail to understand or see how the mount is a liability to the paladin, its not supposed to be something that is fighin along sid you akin to a druid's animal companion. so it should not be on that level of a feature.

ther are a plethroa of PrCs that can 'pimp' out a mount so that it becomes actually pretty dang powerful. in my mind if you want a specific role for your class.. well thats not a base class thats a prestige class, to me base classes are broad and general qualitfiers while specifical ones are the domain of prestige classes.

paladins are supposed to be rare and elite.. 3rd ed doing away with statistic requirements was the cause of paladins, rangers, and monks not bieng able to do much. if they had kept those reqs nobody would be complaining about MAD paladins becuase they would have high enough stats to make it worhtwhile.

so in theory keeping them MAD is what keeps players form sayjng ' i r paladin raowr!' all the time. no that you need 6 18s to be effective but a coupl;e of 14s and a 16 would be nice.

I was planning on posting those feats as soon as this paladin got to a point where i could officially ( for my conscience at least) call it finished.

GunbladeKnight
2013-01-06, 06:13 PM
I'll take a crack at critiquing, though I am not quite as affluent in the game as most other people.


Alignment: Lawful Good
Hit Die: 1d10
While the paladin should be LG, or at least NG, I'd rather see base classes as not having alignment restrictions.
I also feel that the fighter and paladin should have d12 instead of d10.


Class Skills:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge(nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge(religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex),and Sense Motive (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
More skill points are always nice, and 4 really should be the minimum. Odd that, for a martially inclined class there is no climb, jump, or swim. And they should also have gather information, as well as possibly intimidate.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).
One thing I never got was why paladins were never proficient with tower shields. It would make sense as they are supposed to be more of a guardian than fighters.


Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Hooray for detect plot device! Honestly, I dislike this as an at-will, though the original had it as well. Of course, they gave this so that players wouldn't feel that they were wasting smite attempts.


Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 3 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.
Ah, the paladin's bread and butter. There are a few things you can do with this. First is to give them more uses: either make it per encounter or add charisma times per day to the table. With that, I would scale the damage back to maybe 5+ level, as 3x level really shoots up. Next, if you are going to keep it as smite evil (I tend to make it just smite), then it you might consider it not being wasted on a non-evil creature (maybe the paladin uses it and gets the bonus to hit but not damage, or nothing happens and no use is expended).


Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Unless I was playing a specific character, I would go no farther than paladin 2. This should really be at least 7th level.


Lay on Hands (Su):
More is always nice, though I think you should get rid of the confusing bit about the extra additional points of healing. After all, it's still not much (especially since clerics get Heal by 11th level).


Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
This is actually a really weak filler. I would rather have Mettle here instead (even in mine where I make Mettle only affect fortitude).


Turn Undead (Su): When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.
Definite keep, but they really should turn as a cleric of their level. Otherwise the only real use is divine might (or divine shield) since DMM isn't worth it for paladins.


Spells:
And now we add the fourth ability score, making it essentially STR > CON > CHA > WIS 15 > DEX > INT for them, though the need for 15 wisdom to use their strongest spells really puts a strain on how much STR, CON, and CHA they can have. Best to make them charisma based casters, even if they don't become spontaneous.
Battle Blessing is still a feat tax.
Paladin level -3 (should be level -2 in your table) is better than half-caster level, but what's wrong with giving them full caster level?
More spells are nice, but they actually have some at a lower level (most notably Lesser Restoration is a paladin 1 spell). If you want a guideline, look at when they gain access to the spell level and what level spells a cleric would have. Going off of your table:
1st level paladin spells: 1st or 2nd level cleric spells
2nd level paladin spells: 3rd or 4th level cleric spells, possibly some stronger 2nd level or weaker 5th level spells.
3rd level paladin spells: 5th or 6th level cleric spells.
4th level paladin spells: 7th or stronger 6th level cleric spells.
5th level paladin spells: 8th or 9th level cleric spells.
Also keep in mind that they should be combat oriented spells.

Not touching special mount since I give it up for charging smite anyways. (also, charging smite is just deadly with your smite, since it gives an additional +2 per level in damage.)


Remove Disease (Sp): At 6th level, a paladin can produce a remove disease effect, as the spell, once per week. She can use this ability one additional time per week for every three levels after 6th (twice per week at 9th, three times at 12th, and so forth).
Remove Disease, even if it was at-will, would still be weak. I say change it to Lesser Restoration per day.


Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
I'd ease up on this requirement. A paladin could fall while trying to save the world simply because the one person that can help him do it turns out to be evil. This shouldn't mean that a paladin would allow a thief to steal on their watch.


Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
I never got why that was. All it does is make people go Crusader 1/Paladin 2/Crusader X, unless they just go full crusader.


Halo of Light {Su}: At 8th level the paladin can radiate light as a torch. Supressing or activating the light is a swift action.
Ok, I guess, but you should probably have an everburning torch or everglowing orb at this point anyways.


Aura of Sanctification {Su}: At 13th level all those affected by the paladin's Aura of Courage also are under the effects of a double strength Protection from Evil. In addition the paladin's aura of good dispels hostile magic from an evil source as if affected by greater dispel magic cast at the paladins level.
I would just state the bonuses it provides, and explicitly state whether it affects the paladin or not.


Zeal {Ex}: At 17th level as a full round action a paladin can make multiple attacks. The first attack is at his full Base Attack Bonus and each successive attack after the first suffers a cumulative -2 penalty. A paladin may make any number of attacks untill he either misses or there are no more oppoents. Each successful attack while under the effects of zeal deal an extra 2d8 holy damage.
So a vastly improved avalanche of blades? Well, it does fit them and is quite late...


Angelic Being {Ex}: At 20th level a paladin gains the good subtype and the following abilities. Darkvision 60 feet, DR 5/-, Resistance to acid, cold and electricity 15, and spell resistance 25 + Charisma modifier. All attacks the paladin attempts are treated as good aligned.
Good subtype does... nothing, really. Unless you are altering Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchic to require the subtype, nothing changes except unarmed attacks.
Darkvision is nice, though it feels more tacked on than anything.
DR/- is nice, but 5 at this point is quite weak. I'd break it into four increases of 5/chaotic or 5/evil as that would improve it and be more thematic.
Resistance is nice. Not sure if it should be boosted or not.
Spell resistance is both good and bad, and I wouldn't expect more than a 31 here unless they really min/max.
You have spells and and weapons that can change your attacks to good, and a holy avenger is one of them.


Things you should add:
Bonus feats: every five levels should be enough. I would say fighter bonus feats, devotion feats, or divine feats.
Aligned Strike: This comes from a prestige class in the ToM and would fill the level 7 slot nicely. It would make all your attacks Lawful and Good.
Some abilities to enhance sword and board. Not only does it need love in general, but the paladin should be at the forefront of it.
Possibly steal some things from the knight class. Really, they could almost be combined into one.

I would also look at Project Heretica (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193554)

toapat
2013-01-06, 06:31 PM
*snip*

10 Feats is fine in PF where the paladin is an unplayable rework who suffers even more then Bard

In 3.5? There are more feats needed to make your paladin useful then you have feats given.

The mount is an absolute garbage class feature if im not getting a Wolf, Gryphon, and exploiting Halfling Outrider and Devouted Tracker

Aura of Courage would be a decent class feature, If it was 30-60'. 10' is terrible because it relies on the bad logic that went into the development of 3rd

Zeal is useless BECAUSE the paladin has no sources of precision damage. 2d8 extra damage isnt worth it, 10d6 with 10 attacks? is

your second aura is a direct lift of the effects of Holy Aura, a weak spell but powerful class feature.

The spell list is not handled with an understanding of how to handle half caster spells, and you add an additional spell level. Paladins already get 8th level equivalent spells

Remove Disease is the weakest counter Debuff in the game by far, as the only diseases actually worth worring about all begin with the name Mummy, and end with the name Rot. It would still be weak if you sterilized everything within 30' of you because of how useless remove disease is

ngilop
2013-01-06, 08:40 PM
10 Feats is fine in PF where the paladin is an unplayable rework who suffers even more then Bard

In 3.5? There are more feats needed to make your paladin useful then you have feats given.

The mount is an absolute garbage class feature if im not getting a Wolf, Gryphon, and exploiting Halfling Outrider and Devouted Tracker

so i need to give them 3000000000000000000000000000000000000000 extra HD to make it be non-hindrance to a paladin i take it?

Aura of Courage would be a decent class feature, If it was 30-60'. 10' is terrible because it relies on the bad logic that went into the development of 3rd

Yes.. becuase there is not a feet that increaes teh range of AoC. nope that DOES NOT exist at all..

Zeal is useless BECAUSE the paladin has no sources of precision damage. 2d8 extra damage isnt worth it, 10d6 with 10 attacks? is

oh teh noes. the paladin does get sneak attack this is worhtless. guess the paladin getting a theroticall unlimtyed number of attack ( though in pratcive more like 5 to 7 attacks so 10-14d8 HOLY damage)

your second aura is a direct lift of the effects of Holy Aura, a weak spell but powerful class feature.

you shoudl look at what the exact difference bwteen holy aura and protection from evil really is.

The spell list is not handled with an understanding of how to handle half caster spells, and you add an additional spell level. Paladins already get 8th level equivalent spells

Remove Disease is the weakest counter Debuff in the game by far, as the only diseases actually worth worring about all begin with the name Mummy, and end with the name Rot. It would still be weak if you sterilized everything within 30' of you because of how useless remove disease is

Oh noes becuase mummy rot is the ONLY sourve of disease in teh entire D&D multiveres and completely ignoring my previous post where i said that remove deases is used for feats.


again I AM NOT AN OPTIMIZER let alone a massive crazy optimizer so trying to say that ebcuase im not optimzign the ^&% out of a class in teh making of said class angers me almosyt as much as your incessant need to degrade.

toapat
2013-01-06, 09:09 PM
you really have no idea.

The Mount Destroys feats. Personally, if im not getting something that can contribute Before i invest Every Single Resource i get into it, then i dont really care about it. I still dont really care if Im not going to be playing the mount itself.

An epic feat that is severely underpowered (like almost every other epic feat not named Intensify Spell, Improved Spell Capacity, or Epic Spellcasting). If im playing a Dragonwrought Kobold, i still wouldnt care for it because it isnt Great Smiting.

As a Paladin, If im going to be contributing to the party in a way that is Not Lesser God, or a Dragon with a Depressed drunk Halfling Artifact, im going to be Charging, Not finding some way to get a full attack action that nets 10 attacks at 1d8+5d6 +2d8 + Str damage, when im already hitting for 18 times (or higher) level on a charge because im a paladin.

ngilop
2013-01-06, 09:21 PM
ok just becuase you t want this i'llmake my paladin up to your toapat specifications

ngilop
2013-01-07, 04:18 PM
Ok with the toapat suggestions I hope that this version of the paladin is even half way playable.

Zale
2013-01-07, 06:18 PM
You don't appear to understand the criticisms leveled at the class.

MAD means Multiple Attribute Dependent.

Your Paladin still needs Str, Dex, Con, Wis and Cha.

Which is one of the big weaknesses of a Paladin.

You can have a Paladin be powerful without making them lolwtf broken.

ngilop
2013-01-07, 06:32 PM
this is the TOAPAT version.

she claimed that mounts are a hindrance and liabiltiy so i buffed them to levels she bleives are 'decent'

apparnly according to her a 1st level paladins pells hsould be an epci spell or some crap.. idk really so i thought to make TOAPAT happy i might as well give them soemthng that she tinks is decent so i gave them miralce at will I hope that is enought o staisfy toapat in her 'why ngilop paladin is a fialure and why he is a moron and why he sucks at life' thinking pattern.

appaently since paladins do not get any sourve od precision damage they are renderted moot. while sneak atack or its deritivates make NO SENSE to me for a paldin i decided to give them a more powreulk version of zelabesaue dealing 18 times their level in damage is what toapat ones when they do an attack

while 120D8 mightbe a bit excessive.. 12d8 is nowhere near enough for them to be doing 18X17 dmg per attack or an extra 306 dmg per attack, so 120 seems to be roguh with the average of 528 damage

Zale
2013-01-07, 06:45 PM
apparnly according to her a 1st level paladins pells hsould be an epci spell or some crap.. idk really so i thought to make TOAPAT happy i might as well give them soemthng that she tinks is decent so i gave them miralce at will I hope that is enought o staisfy toapat in her 'why ngilop paladin is a fialure and why he is a moron and why he sucks at life' thinking pattern.


I really, really hate to say this, but could you at least run what you type through some sort of spellcheck? It's difficult to understand what you type or take you very seriously when you fail to do so.

I can understand if you, for example, have dyslexia or English is a second language to you, but this is why spell check exists. I use it myself quite frequently.

Topat did not say they should be able to use epic spells. You seem to be taking criticism as if it were a direct insult.

Miracle at will is broken.


appaently since paladins do not get any sourve od precision damage they are renderted moot. while sneak atack or its deritivates make NO SENSE to me for a paldin i decided to give them a more powreulk version of zelabesaue dealing 18 times their level in damage is what toapat ones when they do an attack

while 120D8 mightbe a bit excessive.. 12d8 is nowhere near enough for them to be doing 18X17 dmg per attack or an extra 306 dmg per attack, so 120 seems to be roguh with the average of 528 damage


Supplying a bonus to precision damage without supplying precision damage is kind of.. self-defeating.

toapat
2013-01-07, 07:20 PM
*Snip*

Um, no. The point about the mount is that it:

A: Eats the paladins feats up to maintain value to the player, an investment that takes 7 feats BEFORE anything else needed to shore up the class, then i need another 2 feats to make my spellcasting worth anything to me
B: Inherently is useless, because it is a horse, a CR1 creature (CR2 with Paladin Mount levels) with weak weapons, no combat bonuses, and bad attributes, where as even a Ranger starts off with a CR3 Wolf, as opposed to say, a CR4 Gryphon that also gives you the benefit of being a source of flight, or a Dire Wolf, which is still competent without a halfling that is running a lifelong experiment to see if his liver is as strong as a dwarf's

And all of my criticism was at the fact that everything you gave paladin does nothing to actually reinforce their strengths, shore up their weaknesses, or deal with their problems at all. you just made the mount broken as hell. Everything you added was either A: Overly complex, or B: useless from any perspective of how i have to play paladin so i dont die or drag down the entire party.

The design philosophy that went into the Paladin's spell list as soon as people started publishing supplemental material was that a Paladin spell is worth a spell of twice its level on a cleric, so the paladin gems such as Rhino Rush and Divine Sacrifice are actually balanced as 2nd level spells, while Glory of the Martyr would be a 7-8th level spell on the cleric spell list.

ngilop
2013-01-07, 07:41 PM
a wolf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm) is not a CR 3 animal

my original (NON TOAPAT VERSION OF THE PALADIN MOUNT) gave the mount an additional 11 hit die, brigning them up to 14 HD total. not only that but they gained the celestial template, spell like abilities and a host of other goodies that the original paladin did not have.

really so you need to spend every single one of your 7 feast to make the mount even be half capable?

or is your version of a capable mount menaing optimized to omnificer levels?

i would wager that you mean the latter. and that needing all 7 feats is the hugest lie in the world.

NOW lets take a look at teh paladin spell list to show hwo your paladin spells should be spelsl double their actual level arguemtn

Dispel Evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelEvil.htm)
Abjuration [Good]
Level:Clr 5, Good 5, Pal 4

Prayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prayer.htm)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:Clr 3, Pal 3


Magic Weapon, Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm)
Transmutation
Level:Clr 4, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3

Break Enchantment (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/breakEnchantment.htm)
Abjuration
Level:Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5

thats weird.. none of them seem to be paladin level X, other caster level X(2)... or maybe I am just looking at the wrong spell list for the wrong game?


How does nothing I gave the paladin reifnorce their strength? oh wait thats right you said that SMITE EVIL was too powerful at 3 times paladin level.. yes you later said in a later post that you play paladisn that do 18 times their level on an attack. ( AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS DISCREPANCY HERE?

do I care that your very specifi extrmely optimized style of paladin play where you spend every feat imagineable in the entire unvierse to 'pimp' out your mount and become the most uberest uber charger ever is not supposrted in my class ( which it still is becuase those same dman feats still exists)

you are completely right. giving allies an double strenght protection frome vila nd constantly dispelling spells from evil casters is USELESS and ovely complex and why woudl anybody be as dubm to make something like that, well other than the fact the 2nd ed paladin had the same thing?

all your criticism EVER DOES topat is degrqade everybody who doesn;t do exaclt the same thing you do. EVER, you have to be the singel most vile person ive ever had the unfortunate displeasure of having met teh aquaintance of. Ive asked you repeatdly in previous creations of mine to stop insuting me and other posters and to just leave me alone.. yet, somehow you alwasy find a way to chide in on something and proceed to spend every single post of your insulting me.

I am pretty sure at this point I have enough evidance to pursue legal actions.

Im sick and tired of you and your NEED to put others down.

toapat
2013-01-07, 07:57 PM
thats weird.. none of them seem to be paladin level X, other caster level X(2)... or maybe I am just looking at the wrong spell list for the wrong game?


How does nothing I gave the paladin reifnorce their strength? oh wait thats right you said that SMITE EVIL was too powerful at 3 times paladin level.. yes you later said in a later post that you play paladisn that do 18 times their level on an attack. ( AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS DISCREPANCY HERE?

1: yes. 3.5 was originally designed by loons who were incapable of thinking outside the box. The actual paladin spells, such as Rhino Rush, Divine Sacrifice, and Glory of the Martyr, are by and far the most powerful for their level spells printed.

2: 3 times level is a Shallow look at the problems. Smite Evil is bad for 3 reasons: Melee exclusive, locked to a standard action, and up front damage for levels 1-3.

3: Ubermount? I wasnt even thinking of that, that build takes 9 feats and throws out everything except the mount + Lance Proficiency that paladin gets as superfluous. Half of what Ubermount uses wasnt even on my mind for that point, because Ubermount doesnt need your halfling's input, its a 99HD Dragon with 9th level spells and absurd attributes.

4: I do not rely on insulting a person to get my point across, nor do i make claims without knowing exactly what im saying. The only time i did a rebuild of a class blindly was my first paladin fix. I have done alot of research and trial and error since, and i know how to properly make a paladin that does not, inherently, require a player with significant experience to play. Wolves are CR2, even if they are printed at CR1, and it is shown easily that a wolf is more then a match for the "typical party" of 3.5. they become CR3 when a ranger or druid has them as a companion because of how animal cr works

ngilop
2013-01-11, 11:36 PM
There I undid the toapat make happy stuffs and reposted.

GunbladeKnight
2013-01-12, 12:03 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't take more than 2 levels in paladin before taking the rest in Crusader still. If they had full caster level, I would maybe go 4 (and take the Battle Blessing feat tax), but as it is currently the paladin would only have a caster level of 1. This would make any spells more or less useless.

The only other abilities to look forward to are Turn Undead at level four (mostly just for divine or devotion feats) and Zeal at level 17 which is nowhere near worth it to slog through those levels.

Being able to select a pegasus or griffon as a mount is nice, but unless I know much of the campaign will be outside I would probably give it up for Charging Smite anyways and build an ubercharger.

ngilop
2013-01-12, 12:36 AM
I do have one question about an ability that everybody seems to have skipped over.

My paladin does get 9th level spells.. albeit form a limited source ( a single domain)

with the listed domains the paladin can cast from..

they have no way of bumping up the attractiveness let alone versatility/'tier; of the paladin


and If i wanted to be a 'true' D&D paladin, id just roll a cleric. If you wanted to go the whole ' crusader does paladin better' route.

I guess an auto dispel attempt agaisnt evil sourced magic (cuz as a paladin every spells justa bout brought against you would be form an evil source) is useless?

what will it take for you, GunbladeKnight, to take the paladin fopr all 20 levels.

toapat
2013-01-12, 12:52 AM
Glory Domain, since you oh so wisely removed the Domain granted powers (The reason why people care about domains other then Spell and Animal Domains), ends up being the only one people would take, because it has Gate as the 9th level spell.

You buffed Aura of Courage, to still be useless because it does not start with more then a postagestamp of range, and only expands after no longer being a class feature

Everything else is still bad

GunbladeKnight
2013-01-12, 12:59 AM
The auto-dispel isn't useless, but the ability itself doesn't appeal to me. Also, what would the range on it be, since you would only see the aura with a detection spell, and it would only look like what auras in anime look like. (Aura is derived from the word aero, and it more-or-less means the air around them).

I also gave a more thorough critique that was probably missed due to your argument with toapat.

ngilop
2013-01-12, 12:59 AM
BLAH BLAH YOU STILL BAD I R BEST EVAH!!!

Yeah.. you pretty much keep saying the whole thing every post..

I seriously think that you were just never hugged as a child, and so have some severe issues.

You really should go see a medical expert.

But I could make a new TOPAT version of a palaind its pretty easy

Level1 bAB +20 +12 to all saves Miracle as a Su ability once a round, and a celestial winged- tarrasque as a mount. The paladin gains all Nomral paladin abilities and his aura of courgae now has a radius of 100 miles.

toapat
2013-01-12, 02:47 AM
No, my point is that Domain lists pretty much are abysmal barring 2 specific lists, one which gives unbound Shapechange and the polymorph line in it, and the other which is single-handedly better then Wizard and Druid. Every other domain is really only useful for their granted abilities, which you dont give, Not all spells are remotely equal.

How about you damn well read what i say and think? I have pointed out flaws everywhere in what you do and you address none of them. You even use the adjustments for the mounts from Defenders of the Faith, which typically nerf the mounts so much asto be irrelevant anyway.

I never claimed that im the better homebrewer, but at least im open to criticism on some level, even if i Ignore it for 4 months while i wait for my bias to die down. I outright admit im damn lazy with my own design, I have a massive crater i my paladin homebrew of lazy design because i copped out on the spell list.

To Paraphrase Gunblade: Past level 2 I only see Stick on this paladin, no Carrot. And you know what? Hes right. The casting is not fixed, Smite is vastly overpowered but upfront damage was the least of it's problems (Number of uses, The fact that it is a one shot resource, it is strictly inferior always to Power Attack, its a Standard action, Its melee only under most circumstances). Lay on Hands is abysmally weak because it is still 3.5's version. Aura of Courage is tiny and is never the size it should be (30' on acquisition so you can actually buff your allies with it), you add an Aura that is overly complex for it's function, you have an entirely dead class feature because you havent read the rules for magic weapons, a capstone that is functional, but capstones dont matter if the previous 13 levels were too terrible to take, and a Blade Spam that is simultaneously vastly overpowered, and completely useless because your paladin has no way to make an excessive number of attacks count because they are not a rogue.

ngilop
2013-01-12, 03:41 PM
I have went thoruigh 7 (or more) mount revisions to make you happy. not a single one of them has even came close to being what you want from a paladins mount NOT A SINGLE ONE. and you have not even attempted to say what the mount needs to be 'viable' just that I am fialing at it and making it a liability for the paladin. do I have DAMN WELL READ what you keep spewing forth.

WHat do I need to do to make LoH usefuL. To me wis+Cha times level is a pretty decent amount. at level 20 with a standard paladin my groups play with ( we are null-optimizers) thats still 180 points of healing that are spread out and 2 uses of 90 points of healing.

What dead class fature do I have becuas i refused to read magic weapons?

How is blade spam underpowered? it basically give the paladin a crap ton of attacks that deal extra holy dmg, you said that wasn;t enough so I added in more elemental damage ( this abiity is a rip off of the D2 paladin anyways). But still that is not enough.

How does the paladin not make excessive attacks count?
he gets attacks and each one deals plus X damage?

toapat
2013-01-12, 07:41 PM
I have went thoruigh 7 (or more) mount revisions to make you happy. not a single one of them has even came close to being what you want from a paladins mount NOT A SINGLE ONE. and you have not even attempted to say what the mount needs to be 'viable' just that I am fialing at it and making it a liability for the paladin. do I have DAMN WELL READ what you keep spewing forth.

WHat do I need to do to make LoH usefuL. To me wis+Cha times level is a pretty decent amount. at level 20 with a standard paladin my groups play with ( we are null-optimizers) thats still 180 points of healing that are spread out and 2 uses of 90 points of healing.

What dead class fature do I have becuas i refused to read magic weapons?

How is blade spam underpowered? it basically give the paladin a crap ton of attacks that deal extra holy dmg, you said that wasn;t enough so I added in more elemental damage ( this abiity is a rip off of the D2 paladin anyways). But still that is not enough.

How does the paladin not make excessive attacks count?
he gets attacks and each one deals plus X damage?

Lay on hands: PF simply does it better. This is the one thing that PF did right with paladin. Having it be a capped ammount of healing per day is problematic

Smite Evil: number of Usages per day, strictly inferior to power attack because it cant be applied off turn or outside of standard actions. you address the fact that up front, Smite evil is not alot of damage, but you dont address that it is a severely limited resource, with limited aplications and that actively penalizes you for trying to use it. The way you dealt with the up front weakness of Smite though is itself problematic.

Aura of Courage: there is a reason why 30' is considered good range, its the space you can expect the group to have between the melees and ranged combatants. The other problem is the save bonus doesnt scale, so it is one of those Best when you first get it class features.

Mount: Should start as something that can fly or contribute, not require you to wait 2-3 levels for such. Animals and magical beasts typically gain +1 CR/3 Hit Dice, and the exact numbers are not entirely accurate involving CR.

Spellcasting: Should be Strength or the attribute you keyed everything else off of. Battle blessing is suggested to add because you cant assume paladins will have 10 feats. You give the ability to cast spells from a small number of domains, except the problem is that you did that not understanding WHY domains are a completely nutz class feature of Cleric, which is that 2 specific domains which you are not granting are extremely powerful (Animal and Spell Domains), while the other domains that are ever brought up are because of their specific Domain granted powers, such as that of Knowledge and Preparation Domain's Bonus feat, Which is exploited specifically to grant access to Divine Metamagic: Persist Spell at level 1.

New Aura: Seriously, look up Holy Aura, it is the same thing, but with +SR

Remove Disease: Again, the only value of the spell is against mummy Rot type diseases, pretty weak Heal checks are needed to cure people of everything else, which is why it is always considered an extremely weak class feature.

Zeal: the entire problem has been with this class feature that it is not going with the flow of paladin. you already have 6/7 feats, and are probably built either for Pope-adin, charger, or mount by that point, none of which support using an ability that calls for Precision damage you have not been getting and making hundreds of attacks. Even though it adds a reasonable ammount of bonus damage itself, It is so late and calls for overall character strategy you have not been using at all.

Why having a torch as a class feature is weak: All magic weapons emit light if the wielder chooses to have them do so, and the enhancements are not specifically [Evil].

ngilop
2013-01-12, 07:58 PM
{Scrubbed}

Ok so I can add Lay on hands X times per day, no biggie. other than a wizard Ive yet to actually PLAY a class in PF so I am not 100% on all the abilities ( just found out that druid get wildhsaping ealrier a couple fo weeks ago)

Smite Evil, you are basically channeling the power of all that is good through you, mortal man just cannot take that without some sort of, uh.. hindranc.. maybe I cna add + con per day.. that might make it a bit better so that be what..? Uhm.. 11 or so times per day.. thats a couple of times per encounter.

Aura of Sanctification: you need to look up holy aura. I knwo what it does and what this aura does. You are just completely failing to understand what I am trying to do with this aura.

remove Disease/ holy light aura thing: again like I posted previously I have FEATS that are tied to those abilities. when the paladin reaches a point that i think is done I'll edit my 2nd post to include those feats..

Zeal: again... it is not precision damage. WHy do you keep saying that it is? im pretty sure than the words 'precisin damage' never appear anywhere in the text for zeal.