Goblins: Worst villain. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Piedmon_Sama

2006-10-31, 11:12 PM

The story of Goblins is somewhat unique in that I don't think it really has a BBEG/main antagonist, per se. Dove, Goblin Slayer and Kore could all qualify but overall everyone is really just part of the larger tapestry.

In terms of which of these people is worst though, I'd have to say it's Kore. Dove and Goblin Slayer both seem to be out-of-their heads, driven by a passionate, all-consuming hatred. (I'm betting as the story progresses we'll see more of them cast as opposite sides of the same coin, and I wouldn't be surprised if a war between the Viper Clan and its slaves vs Brassmoon City broke out.)

Kore, on the other hand, is.... well crap, he's Kore. Goblin Slayer and Dove both command the loyalty of armies. Kore is an army (if you believe the rumors.) He doesn't have the burning, emotional passion of the other two--he's pure mechanical ruthlessness, which is (to me) much more terrifying. Implacable, inhuman, more like a machine than a dwarf (as is well represented by his almost cyborg-like armor.)

Nerd-o-rama

2006-11-01, 12:43 AM

Kore.

See: Everything Piedmon_Sama just said.

belboz

2006-11-01, 02:08 AM

It's real close between Goblinslayer and Kore. I mean, don't get me wrong, Kore is a horrible, evil (even if his god doesn't recognize that fact) madman who happily goes around killing *children*. But frankly, I imagine that if Goblinslayer got his hands on a child of a race he disapproved of, he'd do worse than that.

So yeah, Goblinslayer for the...er..."win?"

ElfLad

2006-11-01, 03:24 AM

Captain van der Decken

2006-11-01, 04:22 AM

Kore is more misguided and evil. Goblinslayer is just insane.

Yuki Akuma

2006-11-01, 02:03 PM

Maybe.. or yes, but

it was still awesome.

In a very wrong way.

Ever seen 'Dead Meat'? It's wrong like that, but not as classy, far more neutral evil then 'fun'. Sort of a mix between 'chainsaw massacre' 'ring' move type of fun and 'holocaust' which is plain evil. evil.. brrrr... I mean, it's awesome because it's good litterature, something terrible which isn't real. and still cool
cuz' hacking is greaaat...

...You scare.

Also, Goblinslayer. Because.. poor Fumbles. :smallfrown:

TreesOfDeath

2006-11-01, 02:34 PM

The strip Kore debuted made my blood freeze and my skin turn pale.
Spetacular writing

Captain van der Decken

2006-11-01, 04:51 PM

i'm kinda suprised that Kore and Goblinslayer are breaking even. Kore never tortured people.
Duv is just desperate for the orb thing, Minmax and the adventurers are, well, adventurers, and that leaves you..:wink:

TinSoldier

2006-11-01, 05:01 PM

But they are both bad guys. I think it is pretty apparent that GS is more evil even though Kore has probably done more damage.

Remember, too, that both GoblinSlayer and Saral Caine are/were adventurers at one point. They are what MinMax and Forgath could become.

Piedmon_Sama

2006-11-01, 05:05 PM

I vote GoblinSlayer and I disagree about Piedmon's point. Kore, as a "machine" is more ruthless, but he's also more distant. The worst he can do is kill you. If I were a goblin in a room with Kore, I'd be afraid that I would die. If I was in a room with GS, I'd be afraid about what he would do to me. He delights in causing pain. An emotional villain is more terrifying because they're less predictable and have greater capacity for out-and-out cruelty rather than termination.

That's surprising to me. Goblin Slayer is powerful, I'm sure, but we've already seen that he's a man with emotions. He can be short with his subordinates, exasperated by incompetence, and just comes across as a dangerous but otherwise normal guy. (I don't think he's insane at all. Sadistic, yes, but he's far from delusional.)

In other words, Goblin Slayer can get frustrated. He can fumble. No matter how nasty he gets, you know he puts his pants on one leg at a time and occasionally stubs his toe just like the rest of us. If I was trapped in a room with him, that knowledge would put me on more of a level plane with him in my own mind, and perhaps give me the moxy to fight him (disregarding for the moment that he's a level ?? Ranger.)

Kore, on the other hand.... Kore doesn't come across to me as anything besides death incarnate. Just seeing him coming at you is an incredibly disheartening experience. So far we haven't seen him get ruffled for even a second in the comic, and that gives him an air of invincibility that's much more terrifying to me than simple human sadism.

TinSoldier

2006-11-01, 05:11 PM

Kore = Terminator.

mport2004

2006-11-01, 05:11 PM

I would say Kore untill i saw the latest comic.
I think that Kore nice compared with Goblin Slayer.

Flabbicus

2006-11-01, 05:20 PM

To me Goblin Slayer and Kore are two ends of a spectrum, one is pure duty to the extermination of "evil" and the other is fanatical protection of his city and he actually gains pleasure from torturing the "monster races."

Much like the Goblin Adventurers are compared to Duv and the Viper Clan; one are adrift in an unknown world and disregarding their customs while the latter is devoted to the "Old Goblin Regime" and are the examples of their race that makes people like Kore and Goblin Slayer seek to rid the world of them.

Kore is much more tragic a villain than Goblin Slayer, he could almost be considered a fallen hero, and I think he is motivated or has been tricked into believing that he is serving a higher purpose.

Goblin Slayer has been perverted by his attitude towards them, symbolized by his half wooden body, and for that reason I consider him to be a worse villain than Kore.

Captain van der Decken

2006-11-01, 05:26 PM

Yeah, if Goblinslayer didn't torture, and take such delight in it, he could be seen as just some guy.

A guy half wood, with a pet yuanti, but still not some evil monster.

I doubt MinMax could become like Saral Caine and GoblinSlayer,
I don't think Forgath could ever be like them.
Saral and GS were probably just the in it for the money type.
Forgath seems more moral.

Piedmon_Sama

2006-11-02, 10:38 PM

Let me try clarifying my earlier statements again, because I don't think I've yet made myself perfectly clear. (Or maybe I have and ya'll just disagree. Anyway.)

If the question is "who is morally worse," then I don't even think that's an answerable question. Is torturing someone before you kill them worse than efficiently putting them down? Is taking pleasure in it worse than doing it because it's the most efficient course of action? Does believing you are doing it for a higher good make it "better?"

I can't answer those questions. I don't think anyone can.

The only objective qualifier we have, to my mind is, who's a greater threat? Who has the potential/power for the greatest destruction? And frankly, I think it's core. For all the reasons I've already stated--Goblin Slayer comes across as emotional, somewhat less-than-rational, and irritable. (I know we've only really had two strips to judge from, but that's what we'll work with.) Kore is a walking weapon platform and a one-man army. He singlehandedly wipes out villages, and he does it with complete aplomb and efficiency. As an illustrative example: Thac0 may hate Goblinslayer and the Brassmoon Elite Guard, but he's terrified of Kore.

That's really all there is to it for me. Kore is evidently the most dangerous and effective character in the strip so far. GoblinSlayer is no doubt powerful, but he doesn't come across simply as despicable rather than frightening.

Fat Daddy

2006-11-03, 12:28 AM

I had a hard time deciding between Kore and Goblinslayer. I had to go with Goblinslayer though. At least Kore doesn't torture the poor little fella's before he kills them horribly.

Piedmon_Sama

2006-11-03, 05:15 PM

I don't buy that at all. I don't care if the guy who is about to kill me (or someone I love) is courteous as a British butler and "terribly sorry about the whole ugly business, old chap." I'd still be about to die.

Also I have to say you're quite inacurate to call my statement "moral relativism." What you're doing--creating gradients of evil--is moral relativism. When I say that you can't qualify if certain acts are "more evil" than others, that's closer to (but isn't quite IMO) absolutism.

Once you get into this territory, it leads to utter rediculousness. In RPGs I've been in, you have players who say "yeah my character blew up a planet of six billion people, but he can recreate it later so it's not evil." And other absurd, immature things.

If you think you know that killing a hundred people with the push of a button is more evil than sadistically torturing one man for fifty years without allowing him to die, you are giving these macabre matters much more thought than they warrant. I personally don't like to be around people who are so sure of themselves that they think they can qualify every deed as X evil or Y good.

I know we're not meant to stray into real-life matters (though that's almost impossible with these kinds of discussions) but it's unchristian (and although I'm no expert, I'd guess unislamic and unbuddhist) to weigh your deeds like they're gold. "If I commit more good than evil, I'm good," seems logical. But there undeniably certain acts that cannot be outweighed, that place you in the spectrum of evil. Helping little old ladies across the street and working at a soup kitchen for the rest of your life doesn't amend going all Dark Pheonix and blowing up a Solar System. Bear in mind that when I say "unchristian" I mean in the most literal since, i.e. "not like Christ."

So what it boils down to is that it's dumb to say, "oh, you're eviller than he is because even though you both killed d00dz, he was kinda sorry about it later." It's just morally unsound to me to even say that "well, two peoples' lives is worth twice the life of one" because that places a value on life, which should be priceless.

I oscillated on posting this because it's a bit (by a lot) heavier than what the thread was meant for. But I suppose that once we opened up the can of worms it had to come to this ultimately.

Nerd-o-rama

2006-11-04, 12:21 PM

I'd just like to point out that when I voted Kore, it wasn't because I thought he was "more evil." I just thought he was more terrifying.

Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins

2006-11-04, 03:37 PM

GoblinSlayer. I say this becasue of the fact that I am somehow able to get into the head of Kore, and feel for him. Dove, meanwhile, is as yet a mostly anonymous terror who, despite her own words to the contrary, has not really shown any real villainous threat. Oh, she can talk the talk, but I wonder if she can pull it off. The Adventurers.... well, they're adventurers. They see something they want to kill it. End of story. And Minmax is both villain and minor main character. This may not make sense to you, but to my brain it clicks. Having him the worst antagonist is like saying Klik is indecent and needs clothing.

Shadowdweller

2006-11-07, 10:06 AM

I've got to go with Kore. His cold attitudes toward genocide come across as much more terrible than mere torture. Maybe Goblinslayer would do the same thing, but we haven't seen that side of him yet.

Mr._Blinky

2006-11-07, 09:21 PM

More evil? Goblin Slayer, because he actually takes pleasure in torturing things before he kills them. They have pretty much the same motives, but Kore at least has the decency to give you a quick, clean death. GS will just torture you for hours before finally finishing you off.

More terrifying? Kore. As someone already said, GS just seems like a powerful adventurer. He can be stopped. Kore just seems like a destructive force.

MuteVampire

2006-11-08, 12:04 AM

In the end i'd have to say Goblinslayer. I'm sure it's been said many times before (and will be many times yet) but...

Kore is a destructive force. What emotion he does show, if at all, is regret. He regrets having to do what he does, but he does it anyway. He controls his actions, but only insofar as how he follows the path set before him. I'm not totally convinced he is a paladin, even though everyone calls him that, but that is a topic for another thread. Morally, he ranks in as neutral, or possibly even good, on the basis of him feeling the sadness and regret over his own actions [though this may be wrong, as we've seen little outside of combat for him yet], while in lifestyle, he's little more evil than your average party of good aligned PCs. Neutral, possibly evil. Anything he dispenses to you would be quick, clean, and deadly. nothing a ressurection spell of some sort couldn't handle.

Goblinslayer, on the other hand, I'd argue is not insane. An insane person isn't set in a position of authority, wouldn't act or react quite so well as Goblinslayer does in such a position. As a captain of the guard, Goblinslayer is obviously logical in his approach... calculating. a creature sneaks in? fire the ones who let it, get more attentive guards. Out of uniform? heavy punishment on the basis of the guard uniform being a message to the public as much as a means of telling who is and isn't a guard. No, Goblinslayer is not insane. He's sadistic, cruel, calculating... he figgures out how to cause the most suffering in his victims over the course of years of study and applys it with ever-growing pleasure in the act. morally, he ranks in as evil, though in lifestyle he keeps the peace of the city, we have to wonder by what means they do so, when dealing with more human perpitrators. in lifestyle, he ranks in on the neutral side of good. What Goblinslayer deals out to you is a slow, painful, agonizing death wrought with mental torment and physical scarring to make the mental hit home harder. After he's through with you, even if you were raised you'd be horrificly scarred, even if that were regenerated you would still be mentally damaged, beyond repair (unless you know of something I don't)

To me, the others don't rank in too high at all, in so far as evil goes (most are adventurers, living the DnD "good" morality of the end justifies the means. Dov is using the same moral code in her efforts, and the poster isn't in the comic)

As for the largest antagonist, Minmax so far has been little more than a diving board, sending the goblins on thier adventure. The new party has had little contact, and did even less during it, with the goblins. Dov has effected Dies Horribly, but has shown to be a much more compassionate hostess than Goblinslayer (screwed up.... gods, poor fumbles...) who has had the most direct effect on the party's members as well as becoming a one-man reason to change from the beginnings of one plot arc to the beginnings of another for the main party. Kore has had very, very little to do with the party at all (though i don't doubt he will)

So whether it's worst by morality or worst by degree of antagonism against our favorite party of adventuring goblins, it's Captain Goblinslayer that gets my vote.

*shudders again at poor fumbles all carved up*

Fat Daddy

2006-11-08, 12:53 AM

He didn't kill him horribly. He listened to the orc's dying words and gave the little boy a speech to explain WHY he was doing it before executing him efficiently.

Here I have to disagree with you. I would find it quite horrible to be killed by someone I would expect to be my rescuer. It's the betrayal that's horrible. I would expect to be killed by the "bad guys" but to be betrayed by my own would be horrible.

I would, hypothetically, feel slightly better about dying if I knew why and I knew that my murderer wasn't doing it for fun. I mean I'd be conflicted, but it'd still be better.
I don't understand how being murdered by someone who is misguided and merciless rather than being murdered by a psychopath for fun could make you 'feel better about dying' but hey, if it works for you... :elan:

And what is the big deal about torture? Kor might torture an orc if he had to. Torture is information extraction through pain, it's just one more way of hurting people to gain something, it's like saying WAR is evil, which it is not... inherantly. War is conflict, it's the substance of the noun which is the shell which is evil, not the shell itself.

Torture isn't evil, it's the reasons for why people do it. Not that I support the use of it, I'd go on about it but...

Wow. Where to start??? While I do somewhat agree with you that it is the underlying motivation and intent that makes an act evil or not, there are some acts that , while necessary, are evil regardless of motivation. Torture, IMNSHO falls into the latter category. The act of extracting information through torture might be necessary, might even serve the 'greater good', but the ends or the need don't mitigate the act itself.
While I agree that your definition of War as conflict is technically correct, I once again think that you have to address the intent and motivation to determine if something is evil. Do I think the Marine or the Soldier in the foxhole killing the other soldiers is evil? No. If I thought that, I'd have to consider myself evil, which I don't. However my experience is that War is old men deciding they can gain either politically or financially by sending the youth off to kill and die. I would define that as evil, therefore war is evil IMO.
Anyway, this is a long way of trying to explain that I cast my vote for Goblinslayer because I find him to be sadistic and cruel while Kore I find to be misguided and cruel. While in the end, the results of their actions are the same, I prefer to look at intent to determine evil.

TinSoldier

2006-11-08, 01:51 AM

I would find it quite horrible to be killed by someone I would expect to be my rescuer. It's the betrayal that's horrible. I would expect to be killed by the "bad guys" but to be betrayed by my own would be horrible.Agreed. That is one thing that makes Kore very bad. I personally think that he is LN, but it is an evil act.

I don't understand how being murdered by someone who is misguided and merciless rather than being murdered by a psychopath for fun could make you 'feel better about dying' but hey, if it works for you... :elan:Hey, because being murdered sucks no matter what the circumstances! And you probably should have used :nale: .

Wow. Where to start??? While I do somewhat agree with you that it is the underlying motivation and intent that makes an act evil or not, there are some acts that , while necessary, are evil regardless of motivation. Torture, IMNSHO falls into the latter category. The act of extracting information through torture might be necessary, might even serve the 'greater good', but the ends or the need don't mitigate the act itself.
While I agree that your definition of War as conflict is technically correct, I once again think that you have to address the intent and motivation to determine if something is evil. Do I think the Marine or the Soldier in the foxhole killing the other soldiers is evil? No. If I thought that, I'd have to consider myself evil, which I don't. However my experience is that War is old men deciding they can gain either politically or financially by sending the youth off to kill and die. I would define that as evil, therefore war is evil IMO.
Anyway, this is a long way of trying to explain that I cast my vote for Goblinslayer because I find him to be sadistic and cruel while Kore I find to be misguided and cruel. While in the end, the results of their actions are the same, I prefer to look at intent to determine evil.Thank you. As a prior-service Marine and Soldier, I find torture abhorrent under almost any circumstances. That is why I think that Goblinslayer is worse than Kore.

Well, Kore is the more dangerous and Goblinslayer is the more evil, anyway.

SilentKiller

2006-11-08, 07:21 PM

I vote for Kore.

Fat Daddy

2006-11-09, 12:18 AM

Well of course, the person must somehow have deserved it through an evil act? What do you think of this specific, intended (in the ongoing and past sense) modification to my statement? The arguments are not enough to convince me, I've thought about it before, torture seems like a tool to me spared for the evil, not something inherantly evil like rape for example.
Well since I define torture as an evil act, it would seem that it would be a case of 2 wrongs not making a right. And this seems to go against your previous statement that you believe torture is information extraction through pain. How is the warrior for one kingdom who is being tortured by the warrior from another kingdom to give up troop movements/locations deserving of the torture? The first warrior is fighting for his homeland and will do what is necessary to protect his comrades in arms. The second warrior is fighting for his homeland and will also do what is necessary to protect his comrades in arms. Neither is necessarily evil, but the torture, which either would use on the other to protect their compatriots IS.
Also I disagree with your definition of torture. Torture is causing extreme physical, emotional, or mental pain/anguish. Given that definition, rape is torture. You would then seem to be saying that some types of torture are evil while others are not. I would disagree with that. Torture can be used to extract information, but it can also be used for sadistic pleasure, as a means of control, as punishment or any other number of reasons.
I voted for Goblinslayer over Kore because in the case of torture, I can see Kore using torture to obtain information to do what he believes is right and necessary (as misguided as it may be) but taking no pleasure in the act, while Goblinslayer takes a sadistic glee in the act itself. I find Kore to be the more disturbing antagonist while Goblinslayer is sadistic and easy to hate.
JMHO

Pester

2006-11-09, 10:16 AM

I chose Goblin Slayer, because he's yet to show any redeeming qualities. I guess that also makes him a badly written character. Kore really believes that he's doing bad things for the greater good, GS doesn't seem to care whether what he's doing is bad or not. I'd probably put GS at chaotic nuetral or chaotic evil. Kore is ruthless and ruthlessly efficient, even cutting down children and old, blind, goblins that will never breed or hurt anything again in their lives. The only thing I can think of to say in GS's moral favor is that, if he came to a bar full of goblins and found that one of them had been keeping a human child, he probably wouldn't have killed or tortured the kid. Not because he's a sweetheart, mind you, but because his world is very simply divided into monster and not monster, not into a world of good and evil.

Pester

2006-11-09, 10:45 AM

I kind of doubt he loves his own people that much. He threatened to have the guard, not just someone who lives in his city, but someone who's actually one of his men executed for repeating a really minor offense. Not court-martialled, fired, or whipped, but actually killed. Harsh, I tell ya.

Fat Daddy

2006-11-12, 01:19 AM

I suppose it is choosing your own over others, which the Japanese did and which was evil. Perhaps you are right, perhaps you have convinced me. I do however find torture of convicted terrorists to be acceptable. Should torture of soldiers in the field a way to extract information? Probably not and most people would aggree with you. I think I do.
I concede the point.

I am afraid I do not understand where I contradicted myself. I believe you are hypothizing that torture must either be empirical extraction of information through pain such as killing is removing a threat through death and likely large amounts of pain OR evil extraction of information through mental anguish amplified by and through physical pain. Perhaps you are right, perhaps torture is of a demonic nature. I am not utterly convinced to this point however, I do believe it is possible to torture without sinning, and that nations whom employ this method should regulate it even if it would decrease the efficiency. After all, that is what we religious moralists are all about. Being unefficient in the name of what is right!

But a convicted terrorist (we must trust the legal system in this example, as if we throw aside the legal system in a hypothetical example then there should be no jails) should be tortured if it can save lives, you think?

'Tis ok, I do enjoy sparring with you and you have convinced me that some torture is evil. As to your arguments above, sadistic pleasure is evil if not entirely evil (I'm not quite sure about sadomasochists, I'm rather liberal). But I believe that inherantly demonic acts like enjoying pain, rape and needlessly causing injury is evil.

I dunno, would you use watered-down napalm on enemy troops to horrify them? I think that might be an effective tactic.

I think that I didn't make it clear where I stand. Please revisit my definition of torture. I think that torture is a valid way to obtain vital tactical information. It can and should be used when it can save the lives of soldiers in the field and/or innocent civilians (such as in your example of terrorists). However, I think that the act of torture, while it may be necessary for the greater good, is an inherantly evil act whether or not one enjoys performing that act.
That being said, we must once again revisit motivation. I am of the opinion that someone who is 'good' can commit an evil act if he believes it is for the greater good. For example, I find it acceptable for a soldier in the field to torture a captured enemy combatant to obtain tactical information that could save the lives of his fellow soldiers. While the torture is evil, the soldier who committed it is not, as his motivation was to save lives. This is how I view Kore. He is an extremist and misguided/deluded and is willing to commit evil acts to ensure the greater good but takes no pleasure in committing those acts.
The other side is one who takes pleasure in the torture. This is goblinslayer. He tortured poor Vorpal Kickasso because he enjoyed causing the physical and mental agony upon his helpless victim. He claimed to be trying to extract information (and maybe he was) but he takes pleasure in the evil act. This makes him the more evil villain IMO.
As for your watered down napalm question, let me say two things. 1) If you kill an enemy combatant you have removed one enemy from the fight. If you wound an enemy combatant you have removed him and his two buddies who have to take him to the rear for medical treatment. Which sounds more efficient to you? :smallamused: 2) If you break an enemies will (or heart for the fight) you have defeated the enemy. However you must ensure that your tactics don't galvanize the enemy or make him more steadfast in his determination.
And as my final statement on torture allow me to steal a quote from the pilot episode of Firefly:
The captain (Mal) and Jayne are getting ready to interrogate a fed spy.
Mal: You don't have to hurt him, just scare him.
Jayne: Pain is scary. :nale:

Falkus

2006-11-12, 04:16 PM

It can and should be used when it can save the lives of soldiers in the field and/or innocent civilians

Better ten thousand people die than we compromise our morality for the sake of expediency. Its steps like these, denying human rights for some cause, that cause a nation travel down the slippery slope to fascism. Compromising our morality will result in more deaths in the long run than it will save in the short term.

Darkspear

2006-11-13, 11:50 AM

I'm going with Duv. She intends to kill all non-Goblins. Sure we haven't much of that yet, but think about it.

Kore just wants to rid the world of evil.
Goblin Slayer wants to keep his city safe, and if he has to, he's willing to torture.
The adventures and MinMax just want loot and exp.

So in terms of comparison, Kore has the greatest potential for genocide, killing all those who he sees as evil. Next is Duv, who intends to wipe out all those who are not Goblins. Goblin Slayer intends to wipe out Goblins and probably Orcs. And the adventures and MinMax only intend to kill those who get in the way of their loot.

belboz

2006-11-13, 07:05 PM

I'm going with Duv. She intends to kill all non-Goblins. Sure we haven't much of that yet, but think about it.

It seems pretty clear to me that both Kore and Goblinslayer want to kill all goblins...situation seems pretty symmetrical to me, on that front.

Personally, I think that's much of the point of "Goblins." It's a take-off on the "we can kill 'em; they have green skin" that so blithely gets thrown about in so many RPGs.

Kore just wants to rid the world of evil.

Well, in some sense, yeah. But many truly evil people see themselves as ridding the world of evil...I mean, wasn't that Jack the Ripper's motivation? Coupled with a sufficient blindness to what really is and is not evil, and with nasty enough tactics, "wanting to rid the world of evil" can be the core (heh heh) of villainy.

Goblin Slayer wants to keep his city safe, and if he has to, he's willing to torture.

Bad though I think that would be, I also think it's false. It seems pretty clear to me that Goblinslayer *loves* to torture. As far as he's concerned, torturing is a *perk* of his job, not an unpleasant duty. That's part of why, out of a group of pretty nasty villains, I gave him top spot. True sadism counts for a lot in the "who's more evil" game, as far as I'm concerned (though it isn't everything--see Kore).

The adventures and MinMax just want loot and exp.

They're not, in general, particularly bright, which is why I don't think they rank very high as villains. Not, mind you, that it's OK to kill at-worst-neutral, probably-good goblins for loot and exp.

So in terms of comparison, Kore has the greatest potential for genocide, killing all those who he sees as evil. Next is Duv, who intends to wipe out all those who are not Goblins. Goblin Slayer intends to wipe out Goblins and probably Orcs. And the adventures and MinMax only intend to kill those who get in the way of their loot.

If evil were determined solely by likely body count, I'd agree with this ranking. I don't think it is, though. I'd be more likely to go GS, Kore, Duv (who may end up tying Kore, if she turns out to be as fanatical as he is), and miscellaneous grr-smash PCs bringing up the tail at a substantial distance.

Fat Daddy

2006-11-13, 09:22 PM

Better ten thousand people die than we compromise our morality for the sake of expediency. Its steps like these, denying human rights for some cause, that cause a nation travel down the slippery slope to fascism. Compromising our morality will result in more deaths in the long run than it will save in the short term.

I can certainly understand your viewpoint. What if those ten thousand who will die include all your family members and all your friends? Then perhaps the moral compromise wouldn't look so terrible to you anymore. Maybe it wouldn't change your outlook, but I would rather save the 10,000.
Your last line does make me stop and think though...I'm not sure I agree with the logic but it does make me take a closer look at my own rationale.

Toric

2006-11-14, 10:07 PM

I just read through the comic for the first time (yes, all the links to Kore's debut finally wore me down) and I'd have to say Goblinslayer gets my vote. He's tortured members of monstrous races for years with no real purpose beyond discovering how to most efficiently cause them pain. He keeps a member of a sapient monstrous humanoid slave through the use of that leash. He was open to the possibility that poor Fumbles really did just walk into the city without thinking of himself as a "monstrous" humanoid, and hurt him in a way that specifically targeted that possibility. Think about it, if Fumbles really was a spy and was just lying the whole time, would the cuts hurt beyond the physical pain?

Captain van der Decken

2006-11-15, 03:54 PM

I expect most of the people who voted for Kore did it because he killed the kid, and the old and blind goblins, correct me if I'm wrong. I can see how that can look bad, or coldhearted, but I think torturing with such relish is definately worse.

The Orange Zergling

2006-11-18, 04:19 AM

I expect most of the people who voted for Kore did it because he killed the kid, and the old and blind goblins, correct me if I'm wrong.

Thats definitely a factor in my vote, while not the entire reason. Torturing -especially relishing it- takes time. Time that could be spent brutally murdering people. Kore gets my vote, maybe because I see genocide as a more evil thing than only a racist torturer. (forgive me if that's not a word, I'm tired ATM...)

Also, does anyone else notice the resemblence in spelling/pronounciation between 'Kore' and 'Khorne', the Blood God in Warhammer 40k?

BlueWizard

2006-11-18, 07:03 AM

By worst do you mean lame or worst to face?

Hmmm... I'll assume worst to face!

ibitak84

2006-11-18, 07:16 AM

It's really hard to judge that. Goblins has lots of gore & slaughter, but when you look closer, even the villains are really mostly misled. (That's kinda the point of the story, it plays with the concept of Kant-like absolute morality versus Schopenhauer-style case-by-case ethical judgements.)

Captain van der Decken

2006-11-18, 04:46 PM

Also, does anyone else notice the resemblence in spelling/pronounciation between 'Kore' and 'Khorne', the Blood God in Warhammer and Warhammer 40k?

I never noticed that, makes you think..
I expect that would have been mentioned on the Goblins forums.

Why didn't they think up different Chaos Gods for the different games anyway?

As Belboz said, Kore and GoblinSlayer both have the same intention, kill all the goblins.

That the villains are misled doesn't make them much better. The Crusaders were misled, mostly, as one example.

TinSoldier

2006-11-18, 05:38 PM

By worst do you mean lame or worst to face?

Hmmm... I'll assume worst to face!Judge for yourself exactly what "worst" means, but for me I mean more villainous.

Falkus

2006-11-19, 03:54 PM

I can certainly understand your viewpoint. What if those ten thousand who will die include all your family members and all your friends? Then perhaps the moral compromise wouldn't look so terrible to you anymore. Maybe it wouldn't change your outlook, but I would rather save the 10,000.
Your last line does make me stop and think though...I'm not sure I agree with the logic but it does make me take a closer look at my own rationale.

Leaving aside the fact that torture is not the only or the most effective method of information extraction, how can we claim to be better than our enemy if we sacrifice morality in the name of expediency?

Megalomaniac2

2006-11-20, 11:56 AM

It's an interesting question because 'Goblins' has such complex characters, especially the villains. I'd have to say GoblinSlayer because he does great evil and takes this hideous, perverse joy in it. Duv uses the omelette excuse to rationalize her planned conquest and seems to regard it as a necessary evil. Kore is uber-badass and utterly merciless, but impersonal- you don't get a sense of sheer, absolute hatred from him as he kills, just 'business-as-usual', which is terrifying in its own right, yet nowhere near as horrifying as GoblinSlayer screeching at Fumbles that he is a monster and needs to be 'reminded' as such. To summarize:

Kore views his victims as a task, and is quite equal-opportunity. If you fit into his definition of 'evil', you'll get the same crossbow bolt to the head whether you're an ogre or dwarf-child. Nothing personal. Just his job.

Duv views her victims as her enemy. They HAVE to be destroyed for goblins to live in peace. It's necessary. It's the only way.

GoblinSlayer views his victims as dirt. Offal. Monsters. They're not 'civilized humanoids', so they don't have any rights to exist. They befoul existence BY existing. It's this kind of maniacal, hateful cruelty which defines him, and which earns him my vote.

Falkus

2006-11-21, 04:55 PM

They perpetrated evil which necessitated the torture.

That's an absolutely meaningless statement. They perpetrated evil? What the hell does that mean? A pickpocket is perpetrating evil, should we strap him on the rack for a few hours? Hell, a guy who steals a stapler from his workplace is perpetrating evil, should we use some branding irons on him?

doliest

2006-11-23, 01:10 AM

I voted goblin slayer and for good reason different from most[though not from much].
Now I'll explain each one in no order.
MinMax
I do not even think He's evil,He's retarded without a love of murder or a overwhelming body count.
Dov
She is impersonal and views them as threats not some dirt not worth her time therefore she's evil but not the most evil in existance.
New adventurer's
Can't tell not enough info.
Kore
A master of genocide a destroyer of city's,When I decide evil I think of three things. What evils do they commit,Why,and how do they react to there actions.Kore=a merciless genocide master who seeks to eradicate or will seek to eradicate all life once he relizesses everything is potential evil.He thinks it's for the greater good, and sees it as a duty not a joy,overal regardless of his actions or how they show them his action is no different then how an average person would act given great power,they would seek to eradicate there view of evil,kore is barely a villian in my opinion,He is terrifieng, sick,and dark BUT not a true evil.
Goblinslayer
A torture,A man who takes pleasure in pain.
He tortures and draws out a painful existance before killing them,to cause more pain,and he takes some kind of SICK pleasure in it,so in my opinion goblinslayer far outranks kore.

Fat Daddy

2006-11-23, 05:09 AM

Leaving aside the fact that torture is not the only or the most effective method of information extraction, how can we claim to be better than our enemy if we sacrifice morality in the name of expediency?
I don't think we can claim to be better than our enemy. It is the job of the politicians/aristocrats to make those claims. It is the soldiers job to win the war. Also, I do realize that there are other and arguably more effective methods of information extraction and if at all possible those should be utilized. Torture is abhorent and should only be used in the last extreme. (I think I mis-represented my stand on this earlier).

I am reminded of the movie 'Serenity' where Mal and the Agent are talking.
Paraphrasing and summing up:
Agent: We're making the world a better place
Mal: So me and mine gotta die so you can live in your perfect world?
Agent: I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there, I'm a monster. But what I do is necessary.

This is basically how I see it. For civilized societies to exist, there must be those willing to do uncivilized things to protect those societies. However, those doing the 'uncivilized' acts should not enjoy them.
That is (once again) while I voted for Goblinslayer rather than Kore. Goblinslayer enjoys the evil acts he commits in the name of 'good'. Kore just dispassionately does what he feels he must.

Moechi_Vill

2006-11-26, 05:34 AM

That's an absolutely meaningless statement. They perpetrated evil? What the hell does that mean? A pickpocket is perpetrating evil, should we strap him on the rack for a few hours? Hell, a guy who steals a stapler from his workplace is perpetrating evil, should we use some branding irons on him?

Of course, you're completing ignoring the different degrees of evil here.
PS. Due to my second infraction I've deleted all possibly sensitive posts from the thread.

Wooter

2006-11-28, 02:13 PM

I voted for Goblin Slayer. He's just a tad sicker than Kore.

Of course, thinking back on it, Kore has done some horrible things. Killing a child because a small chance that he might become evil one day, and the chasing and killing of the blind Goblin. The second seemed a bit more sadistic to me. I he was all about killing in the most efficient manner, he would have just shot him down, but he just calmly walked over to him, letting terror overtake him as he stumbles and falls before he kills him.

However, fore pure hatred, I'm still going with Goblin Slayer. He enjoys what he's doing, and acts as though goblins, bugbears, orcs, and other "monsters" exist only to piss him off. As though they were responsible for his hatred. Also, I cannot stand torture. Killing, sure, but gleefully inflicting pain (be it physical or emotional) on others...

Poor Fumbles...

Moechi_Vill

2006-11-28, 04:24 PM

Nuh uh... he's killing the child for 'the seed of evil', he sees the child's sympathy with evil as a 'seed for evil', that can go all the way through generations. Basically he thinks the boy may develop a subjective sense of the universe disconcordant with Kore's system and he doesn't want it to survive or spread.

Also, since Kore is such an excellent killing machine he may simply have been conserving arrows. Such a high-level person would tend to use valuable ammunition. One does not resort to commoners with siege onagers (fire subtype).

.. dang, good times playing AoE2 and rpgs...

Grey Watcher

2006-11-29, 01:57 PM

Permenently carving "Monster" into someone's forehead... Yep, that's just plain wonderful.

Wow, I never actually saw that. I mean, I saw the gashes and the blood and all, but I never realized that it was supposed to be something intelligable.

Jibar

2006-11-30, 07:29 AM

All this argument of Kore and Goblin Slayer made me think of this, from Men at Arms.
"If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you are going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.
They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word."

Who I will vote for however, I don't know. While Kore actively hunts out his victims and kills them quickly, Goblin Slayer waits for them to come to him, and then makes them suffer.

Falkus

2006-11-30, 10:57 AM

This is basically how I see it. For civilized societies to exist, there must be those willing to do uncivilized things to protect those societies. However, those doing the 'uncivilized' acts should not enjoy them.

The Operative was willing to commit mass murder (including the deaths of helpless little children) and cover up genocide to ensure that civilized society remained in existence. I would argue just the opposite: That if uncivilized activities become necessary to preserve civilization, then civilization no longer has any right to exist.

Diabhan

2006-12-02, 08:12 PM

Goblinslayer...he seems to be the most twisted so far.

pita

2006-12-04, 07:01 AM

I will quote sphere on this one: Goblinslayer is worse. Why? Because he has emotions.
Now to the quote: "I'd much prefer he'd be an emotionless creauture."
"Why?"
"What happens when he gets angry?"
It was something like that.
I made a Kore class for D&D. Called it the Dwarven Defender i did.
He got a grapple bonus for pulling goblins through doors, damage reduction for those irritating arrows, abilities to use shields in addition to dual wielding, proficiency with crossbows, armor adds to touch AC, and a few more cute things, like ACP reduction.
But, most importantly, Goblinslayer is more unreasonable. Literrally. He has no reasons.
And...ummm... pie?

EddieBird

2006-12-14, 12:21 AM

They are both evil, but something about Kore creeps me out more.

Thistle

2006-12-14, 08:40 PM

Goblin Slayer is evil and sadistic. On who is more evil I would go with him.
Kore, however, is more efficent and single-minded. I consider him the greater villian. If the goblins escape from Goblin Slayer, he will pursue them to a point then leave them alone. He might target the viper tribe as a source of invasion but that is probably as far as he would go. Kore never gives up on a target. Should he find out that the goblins' tribe still has members in existance, he will not stop until they are all dead. After that he will go after another target and then another until every "evil" is gone.
The adventurers are, at present, not powerful or smart enough to be effective villians. (Though the short guy is pretty twisted.)
Duv is a toned down Kore. She's on a mission to kill all "civilized" races but this won't extend to others, unless they get in her way.

EvilElitest

2007-02-01, 09:43 PM

Kore is simply causing a genocide of all things evil. He is hunting them down and killing them for the simple reason of their existence. He kills without thinking or sypathiy. He does not care. He will kill children (a really depraved act) simply because they were exposed to evil. he feels remose but does not act upon that emotion. He does not care. He just destroys.

Goblinslayer is different. His goals are truly self serving. He delights in the pain he is causing. He tourtures all manner of creatures simple because he can, and to find out their weakness. He loves his job and makes others do so. On the other hand, he is protecting the city in which he lives, for selfish reason. He has made a powerful elite guard unit. However, this in reality makes him more evil. Of the two, goblinslayer is more evil because he thinks. He is far more human. He may be less deadly but he is satanic murder. He does not belive in the rights of others. he is also cruel to his own men. However, he is a more EVIL person because people follow him. those guards that we see all the time, they seem like good people, concerened of the safty of their people and the seem to be real loaly to their city and their comrads in arms. They are basiclly people trying to protect their loved ones. However, Goblinslayer has given them a love of pain and killing, and much like Hilter did with the Nazis, it has come to make them almost as evil and depraved has he is. And so Goblinslayer is more evil, because he spreads his belifs.

However, Kore is a much worst villian. He is just a being of destruction. Goblinslayer is just one more tyrant, who will eventully die and an new one will come. He is a minor player in the shceme of things. Kore is just a killer, who hides behind the hand of justice. If anyone has seen this really good show, he is like Scar from Full Metal Alchemist. While the sins are evil, they are just honestly evil, while Scar belives that his vengence is rightous. Or light from Deathnote. He is a killer who hides behind the pretence of justice. Kore's hids behind ideals but he has betrayed them. He feel regret, so he knows that he is hurting others, but he really belives that he is doing it for the greater good. Golinslayer is evil for the selfish goals that come with it, Kore is staining the mantle of goodness itslef.
But i think MinMax is the greatest villian. He repersents ignorence, and not wanting to understand, and simple killing. He is just like a lot of people i know in the states, ignorent of events taken place and simply chosing racistiom rather than understanding. He is the most real, and ignorence is what allows the others evils to exist.

Elliot Kane

2007-02-01, 10:59 PM

GoblinSlayer is the most evil, to me. He is a deliberate torturer & murderer of others based entirely on their race and nothing else. As such, he is the worst (read nastiest) villain.

Kore is cursed, so presumably his actions are not his fault entirely. He's a one-dwarf army and probably the most unstoppable killing machine in the strip. But he's still a paladin, apparently, so not evil.

Ceska

2007-02-02, 02:43 PM

Goblinslayer for the reason Elflad gave. Personally I fear torture more than death.

Khantalas

2007-02-02, 07:06 PM

Saves-a-squirrel. She killed a poor squirrel.

Although, as demented as it may prove me to be, she looks kinda hot.

Ceska

2007-02-03, 06:37 AM

Wasn't it a fox though?

Khantalas

2007-02-03, 06:40 AM

Who cares? The furry mammal is dead!

Kill the dementedly attractive female goblin!

The Dirge

2007-02-03, 07:13 AM

Goblin slayer because he carved 'Monster' into Sir Vorpal Kickass-O's forehead.

mikeejimbo

2007-02-03, 02:03 PM

I couldn't choose between Kore and GoblinSlayer, so I picked you, TinSoldier.

And yes, as per your suggestion, I read them all.

Alex Kidd

2007-02-06, 05:01 AM

I vote Kore, just cause he's well death incarnate, rather be tortured and alive than dead.

On lesser villains that red haired guard's a nasty bit of work isn't he?

The Dirge

2007-02-06, 05:58 AM

I vote Kore, just cause he's well death incarnate, rather be tortured and alive than dead.

Seriously? Because I would way rather be dead.

Alex Kidd

2007-02-06, 10:11 AM

The Goblin's world has paladins, therefore it's got gods right? Depending on how lenient they are I'd probably be going to the abyss, and demons are probably better at the whole torture thing than some upstart treemutant. Or if they don't have an afterlife the whole oblivion thing strikes me as worse than anything anything could do.

The Dirge

2007-02-07, 12:33 AM

Ouch, seems like no matter what, you are screwed.

Setra

2007-02-07, 12:39 AM

Ah, I misread and voted wrong.

The most antagonistic to me, would be either Minmax or The Goblin Slayer. The latter creeping me out, the former making me laugh.

The Dirge

2007-02-07, 12:43 AM

Minmax is less of a villan and more of a munchkin....wait, I just realised there is no difference.

Mr. Moon

2007-02-10, 07:59 PM

Kore's the dwarven paladin, right?

I voted for Goblinslayer, and I'm sure you all know why. No one deserves what he did to Fumbles, and, suposidly, Thaco.

And in many ways, he is much crueler then Kore. Kore, at lest, kills his enemies quickly.

Sisqui

2007-02-10, 09:58 PM

I vote the most evil is the god Kore is a paladin of. Either that god is horribly incompetent in his management of servitors or he condones Kore's behavior while pretending to be a god worthy of having paladins in the first place. Any god worth the title would have blasted Kore into so many bits the rest of the pantheon could have searched the universe for all eternity and not found the smallest piece. :smallfurious:

EvilElitest

2007-02-17, 11:58 PM

Minmax is the true villian. He i just not even aware of his actions and still is a murder.

Mr. Moon

2007-02-19, 10:23 PM

Well, Minmax is just your everyday adventurer. He doesn't ever bother to think about things like Backstory, his or that of Monsters. All he cares about is XP, and frankly, I understand. He follows the DM with unfading faith, never questioning the plot, or lack of one. Isn't that what most adventurers do?

The Dirge

2007-02-20, 05:56 AM

Amen to that.

Yami

2007-02-20, 08:39 AM

I choose to throw my vote behind Kore. Of all those mention he has the least restrictions in his action. The others all have something tanangable they fight for, something that could hold them back in someway, he does not.

The adventurers and minmax both work in groups and have a sense of loyalty amongst to them. And the last two are tied down by a people whom they protect, and are much more limited in thier range of options.

Khantalas

2007-02-20, 01:58 PM

Speaking of which, will we ever learn the story behind Goblin Slayer? I mean, he himself is a monster, why does he hate things not human?

...maybe that's why...

The Dirge

2007-02-21, 05:25 AM

Maybie he is just a really angry half-dryad? Whatever the case, I dont think we will find out soon.

Mr. Moon

2007-02-21, 02:29 PM

Actualy, I never thought of it that way, Khantalas. I just assumed it was some sort of curse... or something. Wouldn't that be an interesting plot twist, though? Thaco taunting Goblinhunter with details only Thaco and Goblinhunter know?

Thelion

2007-02-23, 06:55 PM

I chose the GoblinSlayer. In my opinion there is a difference between destroying evil and torturing evil. By destroying you take the pain away, by torturing you only enlarge the pain (in his case probably for pleasure)

The Dirge

2007-02-23, 11:18 PM

Never heard the term 'enlarge the pain' before.

Thelion

2007-02-25, 12:47 PM

Ah crap, forgive me, I'm Dutch. When you translate this to my language it makes perfect sense.

I meant 'by torturing you only increase the pain'.

Mr. Moon

2007-02-25, 05:46 PM

No problem. You should have seen me when I tried to speak French. "Je ne pas parlez Francies-vous!" Which means "I not do speak French you!"

Thelion

2007-02-25, 06:22 PM

I think in that case you should have said 'je ne parle pas francais vous'. 'ne' and 'pas' shouldn't be put next to each other :smallwink:

But I was the one who made the first mistake, so I shouldn't be talking about this at all, hehe.

But wouldn't you agree with me it's far worse to increase pain, than to end it (ok, by taking lives)?

Mr. Moon

2007-02-25, 09:07 PM

Yup. But I suck at languages, so there's no chance of me learning any more then what I already know.

I totaly agree with you. Goblinslayer has become what he hates, pure and simple. Someone should write "monster" on his head, see how he likes it, the jerk.

Khantalas

2007-02-26, 08:53 AM

Goblinslayer has become what he hates, pure and simple. Someone should write "monster" on his head, see how he likes it, the jerk.

Stop carving stuff on tree barks!

SmartAlec

2007-02-26, 02:11 PM

Speaking of which, will we ever learn the story behind Goblin Slayer?

Actualy, I never thought of it that way, Khantalas. I just assumed it was some sort of curse... or something.

If that's the case, then Goblinslayer and Duv really do have this mirror-image thing going on.

Mr. Moon

2007-02-26, 09:30 PM

Ugh. Gold-fish sized memory is kicking in. Mind reminding me who Duv is again?

TinSoldier

2007-02-26, 10:18 PM

The one-winged white goblin leader of the Viper Clan. The White Terror.

2007-02-26, 11:46 PM

I think of it this way, those far we have seen three realy horrible acts in the comic: kore killing the dwarf child, kore killing speaks and taps, and goblin torturing vorpal.

Kore did two of them, Goblin only one. If I had the chance, I would kill both of them. But Kore did more

Monseigneur

2007-03-02, 04:48 PM

*sigh*

Everyone here has gone for the obvious two, and begun the debate. While I do think that both are well-written and worthy ignoble scum, I have to disagree. Maybe I just like going against the flow, or I just think differently. Either way, I say that Minmax is the worst. He is mostly used for comedic relief, yes, but consider these three points:

1)He is extremely strong, as every munchkin should be.

2)He just doesn't know better. He thinks in terms of metagame, and so he only believes that goblins do not exist outside of easily killable warcamps.

3)He's arrogant. Extremely so. And one of the protagonists has insulted that pride, so he will probably hunt down Complains with the pure destructiveness of Kore and the twisted maliciousness of Goblin Slayer.

And there you have my point. Argue away, but you can't undo what's been said. Unless you're a mod.