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bobthe6th
2012-12-28, 01:41 PM
Ok, going with Lord_Gareth's suggestion. We the community have been working on a fighter fix, but the old thread is dieing. So, how about we continue the game here, with new rules.

Modified from the original (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265354)
RULES
1) Don't be a ****

2) Claim a turn before posting a change. This will establish a change-order based on who's claimed first. For example, Mike claims, then gets to work on his change, then Mindy claims and patiently waits for Mike while working on her own change, then John makes a change without waiting, then Mark claims, and patiently waits for Mike and Mindy. Mike sees John's change but notes that John didn't have a claim, so just ignores John's change and posts his change. Then Mindy posts hers, then Mark posts his. John, you should have been patient.

3) No More than 3 people can have a claim at a time. Mike claims, then Mindy claims, then Mark claims. John has to wait before making his claim. For fairness' sake, if you've made a claim, you can't make another claim for 4 hours. Further, if someone makes a claim, but then does not do anything, they're skipped after 1 hour.

4) How To Make Changes: on your turn... do what ever you want. If you think the fighter should be a wizard with an animal companion, by all means make it so.

4a) When you go to make a change, you can just ignore the version of the fighter posted last. So Mindy could ignore Mike's changes to the fighter, but if Mindy used them Mark has to use it, but can ignore Mindy's change. Mark could always edit it back to the version before Mike's changes, but that would require a change log for everything he did.

5) Polite discussion is encouraged, of course.

5a) If the discussion boils down to two conflicting views on what a fighter should be, stop after 2 post and responses.

7) Having made a change and posted it, please include it in an up-to-date table, list of fighter class features, a change log of all changes besides minor spelling errors, and if you insert abilities and/or change the text of existing abilities put the changes in red or another color.

8)We want this to be playable with just the SRD/online material, but also to be foward comepatable with the rest of 3.5. So adding maneuvers is cool as WotC has posted them all up online, but referencing a fighter ACF from races of some setting is not cool.


current version

The Fighter
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Perfect War-Skill
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Combat Styles (3), Perfect War-Skill|+0
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Combat Style Feat|+0
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Physical prowess, Artifice|+1
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|Combat Style Feat, The Bigger They Are... (1), Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels)|+1
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (4), Improved Determination, Man Over Magic(Adimantine)|+1
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Combat Style Feat|+2
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Physical prowess, Swift Combat Style|+2
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Combat Style Feat, Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger They Are... (2)|+2
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Physical prowess, Timing|+3
10th|
+10/+5/|
+7|
+3|
+7|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (5)|+3
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Physical prowess, Man over Magic (Exotic)|+3
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Combat Style Feat, ...The Harder They Fall, Faster than Thought|+4
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Physical prowess|+4
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Combat Style Feat|+4
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Physical prowess, Bonus Combat Style (6)|+5
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Combat Style Feat|+5
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Physical prowess, Immediate Combat Style, Man Over Magic (force)|+5
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Combat Style Feat|+6
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Physical prowess|+6
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Combat Style Feat, Bonus Combat Style (7)|+6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, Tower shield proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, two weapon fighting, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.


Now lets get to work!

toapat
2012-12-28, 01:56 PM
Claim:


The Fighter
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Physical Prowess|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+0|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3||
2|
+0|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Physical Prowess|
2|
+1|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+1|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Improved Determination, Bonus combat style (4), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+1|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5||
4|
+2|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+2|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+2|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6||
5|
+3|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Timing, Bonus combat style (5)|
6|
+3|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+3|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+4|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+4|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+4|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (6)|
8|
+5|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+5|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+5|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+6|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+6|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (7)|
11|
+6|
+ 6[/table]

Hit Die: d10
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier, x4 at 1st level. Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, Listen, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter gains three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following.
weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, Tower shield proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, two weapon fighting, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

toapat
2012-12-28, 02:38 PM
posted with updated table

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-28, 11:53 PM
Claim. I'm mostly doing this to edit a few things for clarity.

toapat
2012-12-29, 01:10 AM
Claim. I'm mostly doing this to edit a few things for clarity.

the first 2 claims, both for janitorial work lol

bobthe6th
2012-12-29, 01:40 AM
well, it was sorely neglected in the prior work on the class as it meant multiple days to do any real clean up. So yeah... the amount of editing makes sense.

TuggyNE
2012-12-29, 04:18 AM
Speaking of editing, mind changing the thread title to something like "Another GitP community Fighter fix attempt"? (minor spelling/capitalization only)

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-29, 10:12 AM
Fiddled with the skill list a bit, and added Champion of a Thousand Battles-- because fighters know how to fight, damnit.



The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Physical Prowess|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+0|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles|
2|
+0|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Physical Prowess|
2|
+1|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+1|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Improved Determination, Bonus combat style (4), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+1|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5||
4|
+2|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+2|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+2|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6||
5|
+3|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Timing, Bonus combat style (5)|
6|
+3|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+3|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+4|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+4|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+4|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (6)|
8|
+5|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+5|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+5|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+6|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+6|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (7)|
11|
+6|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates three Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one of the following feats:

weapon focus, exotic weapon proficiency, Tower shield proficiency, improved unarmed strike, rapid reload, two weapon fighting, or quick draw.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-25|+2
26–30|+3
31–35|+4
36+|+5[/table]

Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.


Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items (see page 165 of the Player's Handbook).

Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces (see Balance on page 67 of the Player's Handbook).

Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running (see page 144 of the Player's Handbook) and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march (see page 164 of the Player's Handbook).


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Improved Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Eldan
2012-12-29, 01:21 PM
You should perhaps explain what Champion of a thousand battles is.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-29, 01:22 PM
Copypasta was not properly cooked, sorry. Fixed now.

Seerow
2012-12-29, 01:29 PM
Claiming because Physical Prowess has bugged me as nearly useless since it was first put in, I want to tweak it, and maybe a couple other things.

Edit: Quick list of things I modified
-Improved Determination was renamed to Determination. Determination was originally the name of the dual will save progression that I eliminated in the last thread.
-Eliminated the list of feats you must choose from in combat styles. To compensate the extra flexibility, reduced total styles by 1 across the board (2 at 1st level, 6 by level 20).
-Modified the Thousand Battles roll table. Yes, I know it's copied straight from Knowledge Devotion, but that table has always annoyed me.
-Decided to just remove Physical Prowess. I wanted to do something with it like make it increase effective strength for things like strength checks, maneuvers, and carrying capacity, without affecting attack/damage rolls, but then couldn't think of anything for Con and Dex, and wound up feeling like it was just redundant with perfect war.




The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5||
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6||
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Timing, Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5)|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At level 2, and every 2 levels thereafter (4, 6, 8, ect.) the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.


Done

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-12-29, 02:41 PM
Seerow: You didn't remove Physical Prowess from the table. :smalltongue:

And a recommendation for everyone: If you insert abilities and/or change the text of existing abilities, how about putting the changes in red or another color so that it's easier for everyone else to see your changes?

A change-log like Seerow's post (what he did, and maybe why) might also be helpful to see change and/or people's thought processes.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-29, 03:23 PM
I know you don't want me here, but one point:


At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

Given that the Fighter can switch combat styles as a move action at any time, and that very few feats are per-day things anyway (that's what differentiates them from spells), is this line actually necessary? It's not like his chosen active combat style will ever "reset" back to what it was at the start of the day if he decides to change it, nor is there an ever point where he has all of his combat styles "off." So, this seems like an unnecessary line.

...

...oh, also a suggestion: the Fighter should be able to have more active combat styles at a time as he levels up. Say two active at a time at 7th level, and three at 14th, or something.

toapat
2012-12-29, 04:37 PM
Seerow: You didn't remove Physical Prowess from the table. :smalltongue:

And a recommendation for everyone: If you insert abilities and/or change the text of existing abilities, how about putting the changes in red or another color so that it's easier for everyone else to see your changes?

A change-log like Seerow's post (what he did, and maybe why) might also be helpful to see change and/or people's thought processes.

Well, the only thing i did was move the 3 extremely common class features off to the side, and completely mistake one of the lists, so my changelog was only "A nice table scrubdown"

Seerow
2012-12-29, 05:35 PM
Seerow: You didn't remove Physical Prowess from the table. :smalltongue:

Bah, I removed it from the table, but apparently not the extra column for it that I wasnt even aware existed.


Edit: Okay, got rid of the extra column for Physical Prowess.

bobthe6th
2012-12-29, 11:37 PM
And a recommendation for everyone: If you insert abilities and/or change the text of existing abilities, how about putting the changes in red or another color so that it's easier for everyone else to see your changes?

this. going to put it in the OP.




...oh, also a suggestion: the Fighter should be able to have more active combat styles at a time as he levels up. Say two active at a time at 7th level, and three at 14th, or something.

no, that brakes everything... with a hammer... sorta like saying at level 7 you can cast all spells as quickened spells.. then give multi spell every 7 levels thereafter.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 12:12 AM
no, that brakes everything... with a hammer... sorta like saying at level 7 you can cast all spells as quickened spells.. then give multi spell every 7 levels thereafter.

Oh no, a fighter with lots of feats! Whatever will we do? Seriously, though, what's this going to hurt? My main objection is that it cheapens the tactical complexity of rotating styles. Maybe as a capstone type thing.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 12:17 AM
Oh no, a fighter with lots of feats! Whatever will we do? Seriously, though, what's this going to hurt? My main objection is that it cheapens the tactical complexity of rotating styles. Maybe as a capstone type thing.

Gaining any number of feats as a capstone is kind of...meh.

toapat
2012-12-30, 01:14 AM
Gaining any number of feats as a capstone is kind of...meh.

and the improper interpretation of what happens when you duplicate feat class features with a Factotum is considered insanely powerful

besides that, this thread was made specifically because you negatively impacted the last one.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 01:27 AM
and the improper interpretation of what happens when you duplicate feat class features with a Factotum is considered insanely powerful

Then we have a good example of how to do it wrong, which makes doing it right that much easier.

"I have not failed to steal to invent the light bulb. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Edison


besides that, this thread was made specifically because you negatively impacted the last one.

You mean that thread wherein you accused me of doing something I didn't do and then I proceeded to demonstrate twice how emphatically wrong you were with your accusations? That thread?

(Turnabout (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhjk5x54bsE) is fair play...)

Yeah, I know, but unless I'm banned I'm fully entitled to participate in any thread I want, and for all the complaining I did in the last thread I was still genuinely trying to contribute towards making a better Fighter class.

Also interestingly I've actually got support this time on this idea.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 01:40 AM
Well, the best way to avoid repeating what happened last thread is to not jump back into the same arguments, eh, gentlemen? So far we haven't gotten sidetracked, let's not lose that.

Garryl
2012-12-30, 01:44 AM
Doesn't the fighter already get (sort of) multiple combat styles in the course of 11 combat style feats and 7 normal feats? I can't think of any feat chain longer than 5 or 6 (the Weapon Focus line technically goes to 7 if you follow it all the way to Weapon Supremacy for an exotic weapon), and I don't think I've ever seen any builds with combos and synergistic feats that actually used more than 10 for the main shtick (usually with a couple more feats for PrC prerequisites or defensive/utility effects like Steadfast Determination).

By the way, has anyone ever thought about how many feats this class actually asks you to select? 11 feats per style, and you get 6 styles, for a total of 66 selected bonus feats. At a certain point, you're going to run into a lot of redundancy. This fighter needs splatbooks to make proper use of, even more so than the original fighter (in my limited experience with core feats, you run out of good choices around level 10 even with the feat-heavy archery style, and you scrape the bottom of the barrel around 16th no matter what you do). Possibly pare down the feats and styles to, say, 5-7 styles of 3-4 feats each (with multiple styles active at mid to higher levels to keep the feat count up if you want). That would leave room in the design/power space to add in some more diverse class features that could make the fighter more than just a master of metagame concepts (not that the current version is, so much as I have that stuck in my head as what anything that looks like the fighter class is, and it's very difficult for me to shake).

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 01:46 AM
Well, the best way to avoid repeating what happened last thread is to not jump back into the same arguments, eh, gentlemen? So far we haven't gotten sidetracked, let's not lose that.

Fair enough; I got my Parthian shot so I'm satisfied.

Anyway. I agree that gaining the use of an additional one or two combat styles at all times by 20th level wouldn't unbalance the fighter - recall that one of my objections to the combat styles in the first place was that I was disappointed that the first "fix" was going to be "moar feats" - but thematically it makes sense as well that a high-level fighter would be able to fight using multiple styles simultaneously.

It's worth noting as well that a high-level rogue or paladin has no problem using multiple styles simultaneously, I don't see why the high-level, crazy-trained fighter does; I still find it unforgivably dissonant that the Fighter is now the only class that can't have all his feats active all the time, especially seeing as this was what differentiated feats from skills and spells, but whatever...

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 11:40 AM
Doesn't the fighter already get (sort of) multiple combat styles in the course of 11 combat style feats and 7 normal feats? I can't think of any feat chain longer than 5 or 6 (the Weapon Focus line technically goes to 7 if you follow it all the way to Weapon Supremacy for an exotic weapon), and I don't think I've ever seen any builds with combos and synergistic feats that actually used more than 10 for the main shtick (usually with a couple more feats for PrC prerequisites or defensive/utility effects like Steadfast Determination).

By the way, has anyone ever thought about how many feats this class actually asks you to select? 11 feats per style, and you get 6 styles, for a total of 66 selected bonus feats. At a certain point, you're going to run into a lot of redundancy. This fighter needs splatbooks to make proper use of, even more so than the original fighter (in my limited experience with core feats, you run out of good choices around level 10 even with the feat-heavy archery style, and you scrape the bottom of the barrel around 16th no matter what you do). Possibly pare down the feats and styles to, say, 5-7 styles of 3-4 feats each (with multiple styles active at mid to higher levels to keep the feat count up if you want). That would leave room in the design/power space to add in some more diverse class features that could make the fighter more than just a master of metagame concepts (not that the current version is, so much as I have that stuck in my head as what anything that looks like the fighter class is, and it's very difficult for me to shake).

I think the answer is some ACFs at 10+ so people can start grabbing them instead of feats. Actually adding class features at those levels is a pain because they need to apply equally to ranged and melee builds...

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 12:05 PM
I think the answer is some ACFs at 10+ so people can start grabbing them instead of feats. Actually adding class features at those levels is a pain because they need to apply equally to ranged and melee builds...

You're still going to run out of those really fast, since how many feats/ACFs you get each time you gain a combat style, grows with each combat style.

Put another way, if I'm understanding how combat styles work correctly, the class as it stands right now basically looks like this (the number in () is the number of bonus feats gained at that level; the number in [] is the total number of bonus feats gained so far; and the {} is the count of combat styles)

{table=head]Level|Total Bonus Feats
1st|Bonus Feat (2) [2] {2 combat styles}
2nd|Bonus Feat (2) [4]
3rd|
4th|Bonus Feat (2) [6]
5th|Bonus Feat (3) [9] {3 combat styles}
6th|Bonus Feat (3) [12]
7th|
8th|Bonus Feat (3) [15]
9th|
10th|Bonus Feat (9) [24] {4 combat styles}
11th|
12th|Bonus Feat (4) [28]
13th|
14th|Bonus Feat (4) [32]
15th|Bonus Feat (8) [40] {5 combat styles}
16th|Bonus Feat (5) [45]
17th|
18th|Bonus Feat (5) [50]
19th|
20th|Bonus Feat (16) [66] {6 combat styles}[/table]

That's...kind of absurd. Kind of really absurd. That's literally enough to take every single combat feat in the PHB worth taking as well as most of the ones that aren't.

Look, guys, combat styles? It's a nice idea, but it might need to be re-worked from the ground up so that it's not...absurd. There are a number of flaws with it: it's dissonant with how feats work for every other class, it grants a completely absurd amount of feats, it makes the Fighter far too attractive a dip when it was already a class that was great to dip in (though I do appreciate that now someone dipping two levels into fighter nets the dipper only 4 feats instead of 6)...the list goes on and on and I know you don't want me to say it, but seriously, look at this deformed monster you've created.

All it's doing is helping the fighter where he was already good to go. The Fighter was doing just fine with 11 bonus feats (or rather, the fact that he got 11 bonus feats was not in and of itself the thing that was hurting him; the thing that was hurting him was the fact that he wasn't getting anything else), you've sextupled that to minimal effect. I get the whole "versatility" thing, but there's a point where you have to step back, look at this, and ask "what the Heck do we actually mean when we say versatility, anyway?"

I'm sorry, but at the end of the day does it really benefit the fighter that much, grant that much versatility, if he's Power Attacking instead of Two-Weapon Fighting?

Versatility is the Sorcerer going "oh no, fire elementals, my fireball is useless; good thing I can cast lightning bolt instead!" Versatility is not the Fighter deciding to Power Attack instead of Two-Weapon Fight because at the end of the day he's still just trying to hit something with his sword; probably the same sword as what he was going to Power Attack with due to the limits of WBL.

EDIT
Wait, hang on, something's not right with my math up there. Great, it's like the Shadowcaster all over again, that will endear new players to a class...

EDIT EDIT
Okay, I think my math is right now. Side note: a class that makes you doubt your math? That was a complaint with the Shadowcaster, and it's a complaint here.

Also a class that makes you break out bracers probably isn't in a good place either.

toapat
2012-12-30, 12:16 PM
Fixed Combat Styles wording to actually work with granting additional styles. (Things that grant a class feature that grants feats have to explicitly state that they work retroactively.)



The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: history, Knowledge: nobility, Knowledge: local, Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5||
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6||
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Timing, Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7|Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5)|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]


Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Garryl
2012-12-30, 01:03 PM
{table=head]Level|Total Bonus Feats
1st|Bonus Feat (2) [2] {2 combat styles}
2nd|Bonus Feat (2) [4]
3rd|
4th|Bonus Feat (2) [6]
5th|Bonus Feat (3) [9] {3 combat styles}
6th|Bonus Feat (3) [12]
7th|
8th|Bonus Feat (3) [15]
9th|
10th|Bonus Feat (10) [25] {4 combat styles}
11th|
12th|Bonus Feat (4) [29]
13th|
14th|Bonus Feat (4) [33]
15th|Bonus Feat (9) [42] {5 combat styles}
16th|Bonus Feat (5) [47]
17th|
18th|Bonus Feat (5) [52]
19th|
20th|Bonus Feat (16) [68] {6 combat styles}[/table]



EDIT EDIT
Okay, I think my math is right now. Side note: a class that makes you doubt your math? That was a complaint with the Shadowcaster, and it's a complaint here.


You added an extra feat at levels 10 and 15.



Also a class that makes you break out bracers probably isn't in a good place either.

What's wrong with bracers? Everyone loves them! You wear them on your arms, and they give you a +1 to +8 armor bonus.

No? Wrong bracers?

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 01:20 PM
You added an extra feat at levels 10 and 15.

Well, still sextuple the feats for a questionable, at best, benefit that nevertheless carries numerous drawbacks and problems.


What's wrong with bracers? Everyone loves them! You wear them on your arms, and they give you a +1 to +8 armor bonus.

Not gonna lie, I lol'd.

Seerow
2012-12-30, 01:30 PM
For the record, in my original fighter fix (which as far as I know was the first one to implement combat styles in the form of feats that you can switch between), it capped at 4 styles, and the styles all shared a common base. It was unfortunately a much more complicated concept to explain/build, but it was less front loaded (first two levels were only a single feat, first combat style branching didn't happen until level 4), and by the end you had 30ish feats as opposed to 66.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 01:34 PM
For the record, in my original fighter fix (which as far as I know was the first one to implement combat styles in the form of feats that you can switch between), it capped at 4 styles, and the styles all shared a common base. It was unfortunately a much more complicated concept to explain/build, but it was less front loaded (first two levels were only a single feat, first combat style branching didn't happen until level 4), and by the end you had 30ish feats as opposed to 66.

Not bad, but I still doubt if tripling-ish the number of feats a fighter gets actually helps in any meaningful way, and is worth the problems it causes, such as the dissonance in that the fighter's feats now work differently from every other class' feats, etc.

Look, I'll just say it, and I want you to know that it actually causes me physical pain to do so, but I'm going to say it anyway: if you want feats to function like maneuvers, why not just give the fighter maneuvers?

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 01:51 PM
claim



Look, guys, combat styles? It's a nice idea, but it might need to be re-worked from the ground up so that it's not...absurd. There are a number of flaws with it: it's dissonant with how feats work for every other class, it grants a completely absurd amount of feats, it makes the Fighter far too attractive a dip when it was already a class that was great to dip in (though I do appreciate that now someone dipping two levels into fighter nets the dipper only 4 feats instead of 6)...the list goes on and on and I know you don't want me to say it, but seriously, look at this deformed monster you've created.


Well, yeah, but getting anywhere in most combat styles requires 4-6 feats, mostly as early as you can get them.
We fixed one of the classes main problems(you have to specialize to do anything, and specializations are not always relivent), we still have the problem the fighter always had "their aren't enough good feats to fill 11 slots."

SO why not give the option of a set of rogue esque "special abilities" to pick up? some would be chains, others would be singular abilities. kinda like the ACF option the fighter gets from splats, but built into the class.




All it's doing is helping the fighter where he was already good to go. The Fighter was doing just fine with 11 bonus feats (or rather, the fact that he got 11 bonus feats was not in and of itself the thing that was hurting him; the thing that was hurting him was the fact that he wasn't getting anything else), you've sextupled that to minimal effect. I get the whole "versatility" thing, but there's a point where you have to step back, look at this, and ask "what the Heck do we actually mean when we say versatility, anyway?"


we mean the option to be DPS, BFC, ranged, and ect at the drop of a hat. The main problem with the fighter is he had to fight one way, even when that wasn't relivant. We fixed that, but it brought up the next problem... feats suck/are small in number.



I'm sorry, but at the end of the day does it really benefit the fighter that much, grant that much versatility, if he's Power Attacking instead of Two-Weapon Fighting?


PA versus lock down chain tripping versus archery versus TWF?



Versatility is the Sorcerer going "oh no, fire elementals, my fireball is useless; good thing I can cast lightning bolt instead!" Versatility is not the Fighter deciding to Power Attack instead of Two-Weapon Fight because at the end of the day he's still just trying to hit something with his sword;


"oh no, I am a specialized shocktrooper uber charger, and I am fighting a dragon. It is just strafing us over and over, and I can do nothing. oh wait, I have archery style. *pulls out bow*"



probably the same sword as what he was going to Power Attack with due to the limits of WBL.


nope, artifice. He is using whatever random crap comes to hand as the best weapons WBL can buy. So he can find a +5 vorpal sword that is most of his wealth, and for all intents and purposes have +5 vorpal everything that he wields.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 02:02 PM
nope, artifice. He is using whatever random crap comes to hand as the best weapons WBL can buy. So he can find a +5 vorpal sword that is most of his wealth, and for all intents and purposes have +5 vorpal everything that he wields.

Artifice as it is currently worded grants him the attack/damage bonus, but not the special abilities: Owning a +5 vorpal whatever will give everything you have the +5, but not the vorpal.

("He may chose to have the highest bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses to any weapon he wields.")

Vorpal, flaming, and so on aren't bonuses, they're abilities; a bonus is always a number.


Well, yeah, but getting anywhere in most combat styles requires 4-6 feats,

6 combat feats by 6 combat styles gets you 36 feats. What the frak are you supposed to do with the extra 30 feats this class is granting?


SO why not give the option of a set of rogue esque "special abilities" to pick up? some would be chains, others would be singular abilities. kinda like the ACF option the fighter gets from splats, but built into the class.

See, this is a good idea. It's what I did for my fighter fix, sort of, in that I just took every ACF from the PHBII, Dungeonscape, Pathfinder, everything, and just put it on the Fighter at odd-numbered levels and left the bonus feats alone. Dungeon Crasher alone raises the Fighter by a whole tier without needing to add a billion and twelve feats.

toapat
2012-12-30, 02:07 PM
Feats:

Aptitude [Fighter][General]
You are adept at changing your combat focus
Benefit: You may apply any weapon specific feat you have to weapons you are currently holding, Such as Weapon Supremacy (Longsword) to your longbow.
Normal: You are incompetent with anything but your specialized weapon
Special: you may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

Advanced Arms Training [Fighter][General]
You spent additional time learning to fight with a weapon, and know how to hit harder, more often, and to land devastating blows more often.
Prerequisite: Proficiency with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: Select a weapon you are Proficient with. For every +4 Base attack bonus you have, you gain +1 on attack rolls and +2 to damage rolls with the chosen weapon. At BAB +8, The critical Range of your chosen Weapon doubles. This improved Critical Range does not stack with Keen or Impact.
Special: Fighters may take this feat as a bonus feat. This feat is treated as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Improved Critical for feat and class prerequisites. This Feat may be taken upto 3 times. Each time it must be taken for a different weapon.

Sweeping Strikes [Fighter][General]
You know how to perform sweeping attacks offensively
Prerequisite: Cleave, +6 BAB
Benefit: You may take a -2 penalty on an attack role with a melee weapon. If you do, you also strike at 2 squares adjacent to your primary target that you threaten also. These extra strikes use the same attack roll as the primary strike. You must still succeed the attack role against any creatures in the squares. This Maneuver may be performed multiple times in a round.
Normal: You can only attack one square at a time.
Special: A fighter may select this as a bonus feat.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 02:19 PM
Aptitude [Fighter][General]
You are adept at changing your combat focus
Benefit: You may apply any weapon specific feat you have to weapons you are currently holding, Such as Weapon Supremacy (Longsword) to your longbow.
Normal: You are incompetent with anything but your specialized weapon
Special: you may select this feat as a fighter bonus feat.

This is...weird. Why not just replace the Weapon Focus, etc., feats with "you get a +1 bonus to all attacks?"


Advanced Arms Training [Fighter][General]
You spent additional time learning to fight with a weapon, and know how to hit harder, more often, and to land devastating blows more often.
Prerequisite: Proficiency with the chosen weapon.
Benefit: Select a weapon you are Proficient with. For every +4 Base attack bonus you have, you gain +1 on attack rolls and +2 to damage rolls with the chosen weapon. At BAB +8, The critical Range of your chosen Weapon doubles. This improved Critical Range does not stack with Keen or Impact.
Special: Fighters may take this feat as a bonus feat. This feat is treated as Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Improved Critical for feat and class prerequisites. This Feat may be taken up to 3 times. Each time it must be taken for a different weapon.

With this feat knocking around, what's the point of even having Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Great Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical?


Sweeping Strikes [Fighter][General]
You know how to perform sweeping attacks offensively
Prerequisite: Cleave, +6 BAB
Benefit: You may take a -2 penalty on an attack role with a melee weapon. If you do, you also strike at 2 squares adjacent to your primary target that you threaten also. These extra strikes use the same attack roll as the primary strike. You must still succeed the attack role against any creatures in the squares. This Maneuver may be performed multiple times in a round.
Normal: You can only attack one square at a time.
Special: A fighter may select this as a bonus feat.

This is pretty neat, but I actually think I'd rather see it as a class feature.

Seerow
2012-12-30, 02:24 PM
Not bad, but I still doubt if tripling-ish the number of feats a fighter gets actually helps in any meaningful way, and is worth the problems it causes, such as the dissonance in that the fighter's feats now work differently from every other class' feats, etc.

Look, I'll just say it, and I want you to know that it actually causes me physical pain to do so, but I'm going to say it anyway: if you want feats to function like maneuvers, why not just give the fighter maneuvers?

Except it's not using maneuvers. The fact that you cannot comprehend this after arguing about it after two topics and being told explicitly to just drop it while you continue to passive aggressively derail the topic really says to me you should stop posting.

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 02:29 PM
Change log:
move CoTB to 11th to decrease front loading, as 11 was the closest near empty level. Feel free to move it to a better spot.
moved timing on the table from 10-9, were the text puts it.
added fighter special abilaties, which should get some cool things to fill feat slots in fighting styles...
fixed a some wording in artifice.




The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3||
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5||
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Champion of a Thousand Battles, Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5)|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter special abilities


Sneak attack(Ex): Requires nothing
When the fighter selects this ability, he gains 2 or his (fighter level/2)-2 for every time he took this ability before (minimum 1) which ever is lower in sneak attack damage dice. So if he takes it at level 1or 2 he gains one SADD. If he took it at 4 he gains two, but if he took it again at 6 he only gains one more.



At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest effective bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses and abilities to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at eleventh level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Seerow
2012-12-30, 02:34 PM
Sneak attack(Ex): Requires nothing
When the fighter selects this ability, he gains 2 or his (fighter level/2)-2 for every time he took this ability before (minimum 1) which ever is lower in sneak attack damage dice. So if he takes it at level 1or 2 he gains one SADD. If he took it at 4 he gains two, but if he took it again at 6 he only gains one more.

Why not just make sneak attack rather than a feat substitution, a style substitution? Say you get a style that gets sneak attack as a rogue, but gets only 3-4 feats rather than the normal 11? Assuming you want to go that route.

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 02:41 PM
Why not just make sneak attack rather than a feat substitution, a style substitution? Say you get a style that gets sneak attack as a rogue, but gets only 3-4 feats rather than the normal 11? Assuming you want to go that route.

I don't know... I wanted to make a lead in special to get the ball rolling, and that was all I could think of. but I also want to make SA an optional thing... you could pick up as much or as little as you want. so you could get a half rogue progression or even just 2 SADD because you had an open slot.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 02:41 PM
Except it's not using maneuvers. The fact that you cannot comprehend this after arguing about it after two topics and being told explicitly to just drop it while you continue to passive aggressively derail the topic really says to me you should stop posting.

I'm aware that it's not maneuvers, but it really is making the feats function more like maneuvers rather than feats. And that's not the only complaint I have:
- The dipping issue (okay, somewhat addressed, but a two-level dip still nets one 4 feats, and that's still too amazingly good)
- The fact that the vast majority of feats are awful but this fighter will be forced to take them anyway.

Until these problems are actually fixed I have no intention of stopping pointing out that they exist; indeed I think I'd be irresponsible to not do so.

(Also this is actually the first time I've compared combat styles to maneuvers; every other time I just pointed out that it was bizarre that the fighter is the only class that can't have all his feats on all the time, and I only keep saying that that because it's bizarre that the fighter is the only class that can't have all his feats on all the time)

Fako
2012-12-30, 02:43 PM
Why not just make sneak attack rather than a feat substitution, a style substitution? Say you get a style that gets sneak attack as a rogue, but gets only 3-4 feats rather than the normal 11? Assuming you want to go that route.

This. Makes more sense than the current "special ability instead of feat" option, and prevents people from trying to find ways to tweak it. Also, providing variant combat style progressions provides an easier avenue for expansion later on.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 02:52 PM
Change log:
move CoTB to 11th to decrease front loading, as 11 was the closest near empty level. Feel free to move it to a better spot.

I strongly object to this. CoaTB isn't nearly good enough to be worthwhile at 11th level, and it was meant to be a semi-iconic "smart warrior" ability-- placing it so far into the class renders it much less distinctive.

In fact... claim.

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 02:56 PM
I strongly object to this. CoaTB isn't nearly good enough to be worthwhile at 11th level, and it was meant to be a semi-iconic "smart warrior" ability-- placing it so far into the class renders it much less distinctive.

In fact... claim.

the intended reaction. I was secretly to lazy to do a full shuffle of all class features to open up a slot at 3-4(were it isn't making the dip an issue), so I moved it to a place so infuriating others would do it for me...:smallamused:

Seerow
2012-12-30, 03:15 PM
I'm aware that it's not maneuvers, but it really is making the feats function more like maneuvers rather than feats. And that's not the only complaint I have:
- The dipping issue (okay, somewhat addressed, but a two-level dip still nets one 4 feats, and that's still too amazingly good)
- The fact that the vast majority of feats are awful but this fighter will be forced to take them anyway.

Until these problems are actually fixed I have no intention of stopping pointing out that they exist; indeed I think I'd be irresponsible to not do so.

1) Other classes don't have to shift between styles because they only have a single combat style. The Fighter focuses on learning multiple styles, and in doing so trains himself in such a way that he can switch between these styles easily. Other classes don't have this option at all because they are focusing exclusively on one thing.

2) Many feats are awful taken in the context of having only 7 feats for your career. They're too situational to be worth using. When you have many more feats, yes you have room to pick up bad feats, or create fighting styles that are generally too situational to be worth building around.

If the styles were the only thing the Fighter was getting over the course of 20 levels, you'd be right, it's still not enough. But It's not all the Fighter is getting, it is just the primary source of his versatility. And that is fine. Especially if more ACFs to replace/modify a combat style come out so people who don't want to worry about lots of feats can instead have other interesting things to swap to without needing to pick as many feats.

3) I agree dippability is an issue, which is why I dropped starting number of combat styles. I am wondering if maybe we should shift the first combat style back a few levels. Also maybe restricting styles to 7 feats, and make each even numbered level either add a feat to your styles, or add a new style. Something like:
1-Bonus Feat
2-Bonus Feat
4-2 Styles (1 feat each)
6-2 Styles (2 feats each)
8-2 Styles (3 feats each)
10-3 styles (3 feats each)
12-3 styles (4 feats each)
14-3 styles (5 feats each)
16-4 styles (5 feats each)
18-4 styles (6 feats each)
20-5 styles (7 feats each) [or just leave it at 4 styles with 7 feats. Either or.]

Just an idle thought to both bring styles overall into more controllable numbers and reduce the dippability a fair bit.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 03:28 PM
Changelog:

Moved Champion of a Thousand Battles back to level 2
Added an upgrade at level 11
Revised wording on Sneak Attack
Added official ACFs as options- Dungeoncrasher, Zhentarim Soldier, and the three from the PHB 2




The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5||
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Victor of Endless Wars, Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5)|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter special abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Sneak attack (Ex)
Requirements: None
Effect:When the fighter selects this ability, he gains 2d6 sneak attack damage, as rogue class feature.
Special:A fighter may select this ability multiple times, gaining +2d6 sneak attack damage each time, up to a maximum of one half his fighter level in sneak attack dice (rounded up). If taking this ability would put him over the limit of sneak attack dice, he may still chose it; however, he does not gain the extra dice until his has leveled up enough that they "fit" the 1/2 fighter level limit again.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest effective bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses and abilities to any weapon he wields.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Seerow
2012-12-30, 03:37 PM
I'm not sure I like Artifice. Like if he was creating his own magic gear, that's one thing. If he could treat any weapon he held as if it had certain enhancements, that's also fine. But applying an enhancement from one weapon you own and applying it to all other weapons you use just feels really weird.

toapat
2012-12-30, 03:49 PM
like, what happens when you apply Splitting to a sword swing?

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 03:58 PM
1) Other classes don't have to shift between styles because they only have a single combat style. The Fighter focuses on learning multiple styles, and in doing so trains himself in such a way that he can switch between these styles easily. Other classes don't have this option at all because they are focusing exclusively on one thing.

This doesn't follow through. The Fighter is supposed to be amazing at feats and combat styles, but he can't quite recall how to use them all the vast majority of the time? Again, we run into problems like,

"Fighter McWarrior! Why did you let that goblin get by you?"
"Sorry, I forgot how to swing my sword to stop him."
"But I thought you had specifically trained to be able to stop enemies from getting by you!"
"Yes, but only when I think about it for a few moments first."

"Fighter McWarrior! You didn't seem to cause as much damage to that door as I thought you would."
"Huh? Oh, right, sorry, I forgot a moment that I specialized in the greatsword."
"You literally never use any other kind of weapon, Fighter."
"Yeah, but sometimes I forget just how good I am with it."

"Fighter McWarrior is down!"
"Can't be! I've seen him keep fighting even with three arrows sticking out of his skull!"
"He must have forgotten how to Diehard again. Tough luck."

(It doesn't matter that the fighter eventually is able to do it as an immediate action, because that still means that for the vast majority of his career the fighter literally forgets more about swordplay then most characters ever know).

Or to whip out my old nemesis, the Warblade has all these fancy maneuvers that he can do, and he knows how to use all his feats, all the time. It's adding an extra, dissonant quality to the feat system which the feat system lacks for every other character. Per whatever is a quality of spells and like systems; Feats are supposed to be something that your character always has access to: power attacking, combat reflexes, iron will...


2) Many feats are awful taken in the context of having only 7 feats for your career. They're too situational to be worth using. When you have many more feats, yes you have room to pick up bad feats, or create fighting styles that are generally too situational to be worth building around.

Most feats that are awful taken in the context of only having 7 feats in the career, were still awful for the fighter when he was getting 18, and are still awful now that he can get 73. Now you're just taking feats only because you have the spare slots, not because they're actually meaningfully adding something. It's wasteful either way, now you can simply afford to be wasteful, but that isn't something that should just be glanced over. We should be looking for efficiency, not waste.

I like the basic idea of creating fighting styles, but just dumping feats onto the fighter isn't the way to go about doing it. I'd rather see something like the Orders of Pathfinder Cavaliers, or the Lightsaber combat styles from Star Wars SAGA edition.

toapat
2012-12-30, 04:02 PM
*Warhammer*

Although the fighter has 66 variable feats, all those important ones that he should normally have go into the 7 leveling feats.

In other words, the Fighter never forgets how badass he is at replacing walls with hallways, but he does forget if he knew how to use a Greatsword properly

Seerow
2012-12-30, 04:02 PM
This doesn't follow through. The Fighter is supposed to be amazing at feats and combat styles, but he can't quite recall how to use them all the vast majority of the time? Again, we run into problems like,


Every one of your complaints comes from the misapprehension that a move action is a significant amount of time. The only thing the action cost prevents is weird synergies where stacking a ton of feats gets undesirable results. Your argument here has no merit and hasnt had any merit for the last 10 times you presented it. You've been asked repeatedly to drop it, and frankly I'm ignoring any further posts from you on this point.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 04:20 PM
I'm not sure I like Artifice. Like if he was creating his own magic gear, that's one thing. If he could treat any weapon he held as if it had certain enhancements, that's also fine. But applying an enhancement from one weapon you own and applying it to all other weapons you use just feels really weird.

Yeah, that has been bugging me for a while. It's useful, but doesn't really fit the mundane fighter and kind of feels like it's going too far. Perhaps a more general enhancement bonus to any weapon you wield? That way, you still have the requisite numbers, but magic weapons might still be a meaningful bonus.

@Rogue Shadows-- I understand and sympathize with your concerns about the number of feats. Do you have any constructive suggestions on that account? Personally, I think that adding unique fighter-only options to take in place of feats for combat styles-- the way we've already started to move-- is the best way.

As for the switching... it's a metagame construct. It's a bit weird that a fighter needs a moment to switch between archery and tanking. It's also a bit weird that sorcerers can cast exactly X spells of Y level per day, regardless of how long that "day" is. It's just a thing.

Maybe we could let fighters change weapons and shields as part of the same action they use to change styles?

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 04:36 PM
Yeah, that has been bugging me for a while. It's useful, but doesn't really fit the mundane fighter and kind of feels like it's going too far. Perhaps a more general enhancement bonus to any weapon you wield? That way, you still have the requisite numbers, but magic weapons might still be a meaningful bonus.


But then you don't have to buy a weapon in the first place...

but we could just make a kensai style personal enchantment pool. So you spend gold to buy a +1 weapon and you get a +1 enhancement to all attacks.

problem becomes how do you manage abilities... which is its own issue.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 04:51 PM
The idea is to eliminate the need to waste money on secondary weapons, yes? I propose giving a scaling enhancement bonus to any weapon wielded that a) lags behind the expected a bit, and b) doesn't cover bonuses. That way, you can buy a nicer weapon if you want, and you have to if you want abilities like flaming, but your weapons are reasonably functional without. Combine that with Man over Magic, and you should be OK.

Seerow
2012-12-30, 04:55 PM
The idea is to eliminate the need to waste money on secondary weapons, yes? I propose giving a scaling enhancement bonus to any weapon wielded that a) lags behind the expected a bit, and b) doesn't cover bonuses. That way, you can buy a nicer weapon if you want, and you have to if you want abilities like flaming, but your weapons are reasonably functional without. Combine that with Man over Magic, and you should be OK.

Perfect War Skill also helps a fair bit with the magic item dependency. No need to waste money on secondary stat boosters when you are considered to have a 22 in the stat for most purposes anyway.

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 05:07 PM
I understand and sympathize with your concerns about the number of feats. Do you have any constructive suggestions on that account? Personally, I think that adding unique fighter-only options to take in place of feats for combat styles-- the way we've already started to move-- is the best way.

Well, I suggested actually creating combat styles in the style of Pathfinder Cavalier Orders - you know, the Fighter selects a "style" at 1st level and the style gives him benefits at three or four given levels.

The Fighter could select multiple styles over time, of course, to represent being a versatile warrior.


As for the switching... it's a metagame construct. It's a bit weird that a fighter needs a moment to switch between archery and tanking. It's also a bit weird that sorcerers can cast exactly X spells of Y level per day, regardless of how long that "day" is. It's just a thing.

True enough, but I can excuse the sorcerer only getting X spells of a given level per day as something like "the dawn represents a time of new beginnings and magical mumbo-jumbo means that the spells reset."

Whereas I cannot think up any explanation for "I have now forgotten how to manyshot...gimme a moment to think it over and I'm sure it'll come back to me."

When the idea was first created, I offered up a suggestion of being able to change styles instantaneously at-will, and instead applying a -X to the very next attack, where X is equal to the number of feats in the combat style you're switching to. Or maybe just a flat -5 to the next attack, the idea being that the fighter is sacrificing ability in order to switch his entire approach to combat so far.

Also, while normally I hate per-encounter abilities as being very dissonant, if there was ever a time where you should do something at the start of each encounter, it'd be this. I can totally see an encounter beginning with a fighter saying "I shall be a power attacker today" and then deciding to change later.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 05:14 PM
Also, while normally I hate per-encounter abilities as being very dissonant, if there was ever a time where you should do something at the start of each encounter, it'd be this. I can totally see an encounter beginning with a fighter saying "I shall be a power attacker today" and then deciding to change later.

And that wouldn't cause even more cognitive dissonance than needing 2 seconds to adjust your stance? :smallconfused: Combat styles are martial arts stances, techniques that maybe require a different weapon (hence my suggestion to make changing weapons part of the changing style option), or what have you.

How 'bout an option to shift faster than the default, but at a penalty?

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-30, 05:30 PM
How 'bout an option to shift faster than the default, but at a penalty?

That's what my at-will suggestion was. Apparently I was a horrible person for suggesting it, though, because it penalizes fighters for fighting.

I think it just penalizes them changing combat styles mid-encounter, but I was told I'm wrong.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-30, 05:36 PM
That's what my at-will suggestion was. Apparently I was a horrible person for suggesting it, though, because it penalizes fighters for fighting.

I think it just penalizes them changing combat styles mid-encounter, but I was told I'm wrong.

It does penalize fighters for using their most distinctive class ability-- switching combat styles on the fly. If they can't do that, there's way more dissonance with the idea of multiple styles. But if we give the option of switching fast and sloppy, or taking a few seconds to do it properly...

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 05:42 PM
It does penalize fighters for using their most distinctive class ability-- switching combat styles on the fly. If they can't do that, there's way more dissonance with the idea of multiple styles. But if we give the option of switching fast and sloppy, or taking a few seconds to do it properly...

or make the move action, as you suggested, able to be combined with the action to draw/sheath a weapon and or move.

But the idea is to make it a tactical choice with a non numbers cost... Relying on the fact the action economy is more stable then the going price of a to hit penalty. A move action is always a move action, were a -5 ranges from a big problem to nothing with some frequency.

Lord_Gareth
2012-12-30, 06:02 PM
May I suggest something?

Why not make changing styles a free part of drawing a weapon? That way it's a move action or part of a move action (see "Drawing a weapon," in the SRD) at low levels, and then later you could just give them Quick Draw to make it a free action on their turn.

lesser_minion
2012-12-30, 06:23 PM
I know it keeps being brought up that you need 5-6 feats to become good at a given combat style, but given that this version of the fighter can skip prerequisite feats, how true is that?

At present, I can definitely buy the argument that we're giving out too many feats. Regardless of need, I think we probably are giving out enough that they're a pain in the ass to work with.

As for the current argument, I fully support having changing combat styles be part of the action used to change your weapon.

Lord_Gareth
2012-12-30, 06:27 PM
I know it keeps being brought up that you need 5-6 feats to become good at a given combat style, but given that this version of the fighter can skip prerequisite feats, how true is that? I get the impression that we really are giving out too many feats.

Well, I suppose part of the problem is pre-reqs, but more of the problem is that in many cases 'good' at a style is only because you have a specific combination of many feats. I mean, look at the number of feats you need for a tripper, an archer, and a charger. Is a lotta feats.

bobthe6th
2012-12-30, 06:31 PM
Minimum for a lock down tripper
EWF spiked chain+combat reflexes+improved trip+stand still
Minimum for an archer
rapid shot+far shot+percise shot+shot on the run
Minimum for a TWF...
TWF+Dual strike+two weapon rend+a feat every 5BAB
seems like 4-6ish.

Lord_Gareth
2012-12-30, 06:33 PM
Man do you have that Archer build wrong:

Minimum for an archer is: Precise shot, manyshot, improved manyshot, rapid shot, improved rapid shot.

Amechra
2012-12-30, 06:47 PM
You know, I think I'm going to Claim.

I'm thinking I'll post up an alternative to the Combat Styles thing we've got going...

toapat
2012-12-30, 06:53 PM
Man do you have that Archer build wrong:

Minimum for an archer is: Precise shot, manyshot, improved manyshot, rapid shot, improved rapid shot.

Minimum for Archery is:

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, either Greater Manyshot (normally) or Improved Rapid shot (as rogue/with sneak attack), Crossbow Sniper (as long as ToB is available with it), and Improved Precise shot is suggested depending on how willing the DM is to read it straight.

Garryl
2012-12-30, 06:53 PM
There are some common budget versions of the above styles.

Lockdown: Combat Reflexes + Stand Still. Use any martial reach weapon and use armor spikes, natural attacks, or unarmed strikes (if you have a Monk's Belt or something) for close range AoOs.

Archer: Precise Shot + Rapid Shot (also needs Point Blank Shot for prerequisites). Improved Rapid Shot and Manyshot are entirely optional. Improved Manyshot mostly only gets used for Scout builds to trigger multiple attacks as a standard action for use with Skirmish, but that's a separate matter.

TWF: Two-Weapon Fighting. That's it. Gloves of the Balanced Hand will give you ITWF, and you only need Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade if you're pumping your Dex score to meet the deeper chain feat requirements; the first TWF only requires a fairly reasonable 15 Dex.

lesser_minion
2012-12-30, 07:12 PM
Shot on the Run, Spring Attack and the like should be virtually redundant for this fighter (Rapid Repositioning does everything they do as long as you can spare the swift action).

Most of the archery build essentials are actually items rather than feats IIRC. The feats make you do better, sure, but I'm not sure any of them is strictly essential as opposed to being merely better.

As for IPS, how many DMs actually accept the creative reading of that?

toapat
2012-12-30, 07:21 PM
Shot on the Run, Spring Attack and the like should be virtually redundant for this fighter (Rapid Repositioning does everything they do as long as you can spare the swift action).

Most of the archery build essentials are actually items rather than feats IIRC. The feats make you do better, sure, but I'm not sure any of them is strictly essential as opposed to being merely better.

As for IPS, how many DMs actually accept the creative reading of that?

1: Seeking yes, Splitting? no. Seeking is useless if the DM reads IPS with common sense. if they take IPS RAW, then Seeking is garbage. Splitting is required to make archery good.
2: It isnt the creative reading, it is the straight reading. IPS makes your target's armor at best only a 10. Unless the dm reads it RAI and makes it only negate cover.

TuggyNE
2012-12-30, 07:26 PM
Minor side note: Greater Manyshot, not Improved, is the one used for Skirmish. (Improved is [epic] and specifically doesn't grant precision damage on more than one of the shots.)

Garryl
2012-12-31, 03:09 AM
1: Seeking yes, Splitting? no. Seeking is useless if the DM reads IPS with common sense. if they take IPS RAW, then Seeking is garbage. Splitting is required to make archery good.
2: It isnt the creative reading, it is the straight reading. IPS makes your target's armor at best only a 10. Unless the dm reads it RAI and makes it only negate cover.

Technically, total cover doesn't actually give an AC bonus, so IPS can also be read as ignoring an armor bonus less than +0. It's differently nonsensical that way. It might actually be +4 if it inherits from normal cover or +8 if it's improved cover that it acts like, but I think, technically, the two things are distinct (cover and total cover).

toapat
2012-12-31, 12:05 PM
Technically, total cover doesn't actually give an AC bonus, so IPS can also be read as ignoring an armor bonus less than +0. It's differently nonsensical that way. It might actually be +4 if it inherits from normal cover or +8 if it's improved cover that it acts like, but I think, technically, the two things are distinct (cover and total cover).

Total Cover works differently then other covers. Total cover specifically blocks line of effect, although there is an Epic version of IPS and Epic enhancement that combined make even total cover and total concealment useless

As well as the fact that as worded, IPS negates any armor bonus the target has, because no ammount of armor is better then no Line of Effect

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-31, 01:34 PM
We're drifting off-topic again, guys.

The main issue with the classic fighter's feats, as I understand it, is that they can get one good trick by level 8 or so, but by the time they get another one both are useless.

Having multiple combat styles takes care of the first issue, and gives a pretty solid amount of versatility-- by level 8-10, you can have 4 different load-outs, acting as, oh, an archer, charger, tripper, or skirmisher, as the case may be. However we dole out new combat styles, getting a whole new set of feats allows you to pick up a new "trick" all in one go-- an excellent way of handling it, to my eyes.

That leaves us with the issue of scaling. Things like ...The Bigger They Are and Perfect War Skill help a bit, but it's not really enough. That, in all honesty, is probably a much bigger issue.

Both problems, methinks, can be handled by creating more Fighter Special Abilities. Right now, the list is mostly fighter ACFs from various books presented almost like feats. We could probably also steal class features from other classes-- Sneak Attack is already on the list. Why not add Skirmish, Flurry of Blows, Insightful Strike, Bulwark of Defense, Uncanny Dodge, and other stolen class abilities as options? And flat out make up higher level ones? Done right, we can give the fighter extra low- and high-level abilities to mix with feats and construct truly unique combat styles.

toapat
2012-12-31, 01:45 PM
As far as extra class features:

1: Steal everything fighter gets in Dragon 310
2: Pillage the Knight and Samurai
3: Lay waste to the barbarian.
4: Loot the Dwarven Defender.
5: Pilfer Skirmish
6: Return sneak attack

bobthe6th
2012-12-31, 02:07 PM
7: Exhume psychic strike
8: Graft on favored enemy(possibly as a boost to CoaTB)
9: Make up some cool things, like X stat to Y bonus or Combat focus based stuff.



Also, I would want to see some stuff that add tactical options. Right now it has the option to change

toapat
2012-12-31, 02:41 PM
7: Exhume psychic strike
8: Graft on favored enemy(possibly as a boost to CoaTB)
9: Make up some cool things, like X stat to Y bonus or Combat focus based stuff.



Also, I would want to see some stuff that add tactical options. Right now it has the option to change

I was talking about stealing mundane abilities.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-31, 02:52 PM
Right. Nothing (Su) or (Sp) for the default fighter.

toapat
2012-12-31, 02:57 PM
Right. Nothing (Su) or (Sp) for the default fighter.

i like the idea of a fighter who is purely extraordinary. I get that Su and Sp are basically all that matters late game, but still. the Fighter should be able to match the Wizard's magic using pure phsyical capacity

bobthe6th
2012-12-31, 02:58 PM
Well, more take the idea of a smite you need to charge as a move action and use it as a source of bonus damage.

Though I do question the forced Ex label of the fighter. They are using magical gear, and hanging out in magical places...

toapat
2012-12-31, 03:05 PM
Not so mundane like one specific fighter fix which had a capstone of Permanent Dysjunction around him (which IMO, would be worse then a bubble of deadmagic that he can disable). Just that all his class features are mundane, but add upto a greater, near mystic whole.

lesser_minion
2012-12-31, 03:32 PM
If it's not a main class feature -- i.e. you get stuff for not taking it, there's nothing wrong with giving the fighter a (Su) or (Sp) class feature, even an overtly-magical one like spewing flaming exploding eyeballs out of his eyeballs.

And unless I'm mistaken, none of what you're discussing is being proposed as a mainline class feature.

I'd rather avoid pillaging other classes if we can avoid it -- defensive stance, in particular, is brain-dead mechanically and, I'm pretty certain, even worse in fluff (even before considering the sheer stupidity of a badass martial artist who gets tired standing around and picking his nose for a minute). However, I think we can come up with ideas that don't rip off other classes and which are more useful to fixing the fighter's problems.

Building off the class features I've added, I can see:

Adding 'en passant' to ordinary movement (useful for blocking enemies).
Granting better cover, and at no personal risk, when using en passant.
Ignoring the en passant rule for rapid repositioning, letting you use it as a form of abrupt jaunt.


I think we also need to start looking at support abilities -- ways to recover from afflictions, possibly even a self-healing mechanic.

Amechra
2012-12-31, 03:44 PM
I'm dropping my Claim; my idea didn't work out when I tested it out, so... yeah.

toapat
2012-12-31, 03:45 PM
part of the problem of Fighter is that alot of what the fighter should be able to do was given as base class features to other classes. Rage and Defensive stance being obvious things to point out that you dont need a single class for an entire mechanic. There is alot more to a rogue and their sneak attack then to the illiterate barbarian or the statue dwarf. Skirmish makes sense for a fighter because real life combat isnt about standing still.

lesser_minion
2012-12-31, 03:55 PM
Real-life combat isn't about standing still because standing still is a recipe for dying horribly. I'd at least hope that we've already gone a long way towards fixing that fluff issue with cheaper movement from 4th level onwards.

In any event, I'd be all for resolving the overlap between fighter and barbarian by just dropping the barbarian (as ToB basically did), but I'm working on the premise that that's not an option. Hence why I'm trying to steer this in the direction of skilled-fighter rather than hulking-brute-fighter.

We do need an alternative source of bonus damage (as opposed to power attack) for the dex-orientated fighter, but we may as well just hand out a standard route to bonus damage as a main class feature. Customisation is nice, but letting people customise away what they need to make an effective character is a mistake.

toapat
2012-12-31, 04:11 PM
1: Add a mechanic for rebuilding a Combat style over say, a week.
2: ToB didnt fix anything. It provided simple and straightforward replacements for the monk and fighter, and a class that is supposed to be a paladin but really is useless compared to the paladin, but needs no effort to learn or play.
3: yes, alternate damage is fine. Sneak attack isnt simply because Sneak attack is pretty much entirely against the flavor of fighter.

lesser_minion
2012-12-31, 04:36 PM
3: yes, alternate damage is fine. Sneak attack isnt simply because Sneak attack is pretty much entirely against the flavor of fighter.

I know we're not supposed to debate points like that here, but really?

Anything goes if it's optional, no matter how ridiculous, silly, insane, or magical it might be. Shooting fire-breathing exploding eyeballs that shoot eyeballs out of your eyeballs? No problem. Distracting your opponent by summoning an illithid ecdysiast? Fine.

Secondly, it isn't even off-theme. There's nothing in the fighter fluff that requires them to be honourable chaps, or even the sort of person you might perceive as honourable. Many of them will be knights and samurai, but the class as written accepts all sorts, including the pragmatic.

Not that I agree with having sneak attack in the class, but I've already explained my reasons for that, and they don't have anything to do with theme.

toapat
2012-12-31, 04:46 PM
I feel the specific flavor of pragmatic that is brought with Sneak attack doesnt fit fighter though. It is both attempting to take down your opponent extremely efficiently, but also doing it stealthily, Its just that precision damage type mechanics are not out of place.

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-31, 05:01 PM
I hesitate to merge the barbarian too much with the fighter; the core barbarian isn't too distinct, but I think the class can and-- often-- has been reworked to fill its own conceptual space quite efficiently. The fighter is the skilled warrior, while the barbarian is the instinctive brute.

lesser_minion, I agree that to a certain extent anything goes for optional class features, but there is a limit-- and I think that limit is magic. How many times have you seen people protest the ToB because supernatural maneuvers exist, even if the Warblade doesn't get any? If we give any optional supernatural abilities, it'll "taint" the whole class.

Besides, it's good to stay on-theme. Sneak attack can absolutely fit a fighter-- look at the Thug variant in Unearthed Arcana. But fireballs from the eyes probably does not.

lesser_minion
2012-12-31, 05:34 PM
Is there anything stealthy about stabbing someone while they're distracted by your summoned illithid ecdysiast? Or drawing and shooting first? Both are potential sneak attack triggers.

Neither is really outside of what the fighter might do (well, I really hope the fighter isn't into illithid ecdysiasts, but you could substitute any other distraction).

As for magic and ToB, it was expressly presented as a form of spellcasting. It's actually possible to argue that there isn't a non-magical manoeuvre in the whole book, since the rule that (Ex) abilities are non-magical had actually been abolished.

But in any event, it simply isn't reasonable to complain that the fighter has access to magical class features if they aren't being forced down his throat. I don't think we should be concerning ourselves with the needs of such people (or, at least, not that particular need).

As far as fighter themes go, a common thread to many fighter concepts is that they're an elite warrior, in both skills and social status. They're the knights and the samurai. In a fantasy culture that doesn't require some hereditary basis for working magic and that doesn't attach any sort of stigma to the magic user, a lot of these people are going to dabble as much as they are able. It would actually be less fitting IMHO if the class really was entirely non-magical as opposed to merely being optionally non-magical. As for the eyeballs thing, that wasn't really meant to be taken as anything but hyperbole. I don't really think that anything goes to quite that extent.

Anyway, sorry for the derail. I believe we're supposed to be brainstorming new special abilities to take as part of combat styles, that aren't ripped wholesale from other classes?

bobthe6th
2012-12-31, 05:37 PM
So, I am busy, but is somebody going to claim and start adding some of these things? That seems to be the step we are all waiting on...

lesser_minion
2012-12-31, 05:44 PM
I think we've managed to get ourselves stuck in a massive brainstorming session. Of course, it's easy to come up with an idea, but implementing one is a different matter.

Everything I've added so far has basically struck me as something that's well worth the fighter having, but beyond that I'm not sure I have the motivation to add more (that is pretty much why I contributed them here rather than writing my own fighter fix, despite having been thinking about it for months). And even then, I've edited them twice and still ended up unhappy with the result.

toapat
2012-12-31, 06:36 PM
Im just not implementing ideas because id probably irritate everyone and derail the thread

plus, im not entirely sure how i would do so

Grod_The_Giant
2012-12-31, 07:14 PM
Wh...why's everyone looking at me?

Claim

Rogue Shadows
2012-12-31, 11:10 PM
lesser_minion, I agree that to a certain extent anything goes for optional class features, but there is a limit-- and I think that limit is magic. How many times have you seen people protest the ToB because supernatural maneuvers exist, even if the Warblade doesn't get any? If we give any optional supernatural abilities, it'll "taint" the whole class.

Interestingly, that's the one thing I've never complained about from ToB: it said right in the beginning that it was inspired by Wuxia and such and so I expected a certain degree of magic. Indeed I don't mind ToB at all in and of itself...what I mind is the way certain amongst its supporters hold it up as basically the fix to everything melee and shame on you for trying to actually fix the Fighter without adding maneuvers, they're only optional if you're a horrible person that kicks puppies.

But I probably shouldn't keep going on about that.


Besides, it's good to stay on-theme. Sneak attack can absolutely fit a fighter-- look at the Thug variant in Unearthed Arcana. But fireballs from the eyes probably does not.

I'm actually not to keen on sneak attack, not because I don't think Fighters would stoop so low, but rather for the same reason I'd be against giving it:
- Rage
- Bardic music
- Domains
- Wild shape
- ...Slow fall, I guess?
- Smite
- Favored enemy
- Familiar
- ...Familiar again

Its...kind of the Rogue's thing, you know? If the Fighter does get Sneak Attack, it shouldn't be as good as the Rogue at it.

(Also, the Thug variant from UA doesn't get Sneak Attack; it gets better skills, loses its 1st level feat, loses medium and heavy armor and shield proficiency and adds Urban Tracking to its bonus feat list. The Fighter variant from UA that gained Sneak Attack wasn't named, and it swapped out all its bonus feats for Sneak Attack, though it was suggested that it could be combined with the Thug from earlier).


I get that Su and Sp are basically all that matters late game, but still. the Fighter should be able to match the Wizard's magic using pure phsyical capacity

Agreed. Though it's worth noting that the description for (Ex) abilities in the PHB explicitly state that they can defy the laws of physics, and looking at the benefits and drawbacks of each, (Ex) abilities are much better than (Sp) or (Su), since they can't be antimagic'd, dispelled, resisted, or provoke attacks of opportunity, and they're generally free actions rather than standard.

Point being that (Su) and (Sp) abilities are all that matter late game only because of the specific examples of (Su) and (Sp) abilities, not because they're in some way mechanically superior to (Ex) as a concept (they're actually fundamentally worse).

Put another way, would you rather have at-will Fireball as an (Sp), (Su), or (Ex)?

bobthe6th
2012-12-31, 11:26 PM
Its...kind of the Rogue's thing, you know? If the Fighter does get Sneak Attack, it shouldn't be as good as the Rogue at it.


But it doesn't do it well, and the fighter needs some source of damage. More then one class can do a thing, much like there is more then one class that casts arcane spells spontaneously. Really, I could see a fighter with a few ambush feat style things and a sneak attack progression doing well.

But really, the fighter won't be as good with it. He doesn't have the skills to be stealthy, and won't have it as the one style he spends all his WBL boosting.

toapat
2012-12-31, 11:40 PM
But it doesn't do it well, and the fighter needs some source of damage. More then one class can do a thing, much like there is more then one class that casts arcane spells spontaneously. Really, I could see a fighter with a few ambush feat style things and a sneak attack progression doing well.

But really, the fighter won't be as good with it. He doesn't have the skills to be stealthy, and won't have it as the one style he spends all his WBL boosting.

I said take Skirmish in place of Sneak attack, because they needed an extra source of damage.

Basically, Sneak Attack is not a very good fit for the fighter fluff wise. mechanically its the best type of precision damage, being the only kind that has many alternative hoops instead of only one very small hoop. Sneak attack also conveys a very different tone then the rest of the fighter. but He isnt practicing better form with his weapons when he wants to sneak attack, he is focusing on trying to get an advantage through any means necessary, not looking to exploit some tiny hole in his opponent's action to force them into unfavorable situations. Again, the flavor behind Sneak attack is not fitting of fighter. Neither is rage specifically, but the fighter should have a stance to call his own. I do agree that the Barbarian saw a level of redemption in their ACFs that Ranger, Fighter, and Monk never did.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 12:14 AM
But it doesn't do it well,

That doesn't mean that you should steal the primary, most notable, most iconic class feature from the rogue. If the rogue isn't sneak attacking well, then the rogue should be fixed, not abandoned.


and the fighter needs some source of damage.

Awesomesauce Damage (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, the fighter deals an additional 1d4 damage on every successful attack. He adds an additional 1d4 damage at 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter.

There we go. Yes, it's only a d4, but given that it's added every time he deals damage, I think the trade-off is worth it, and the Fighter is no longer stepping on the rogue, who gets more dice at a trade-off of it being conditional.

(Actually that might be too good...maybe just for the fighter's first attack every turn. Turn, important, 'cause that will allow it to apply to out-of-turn attacks).

toapat
2013-01-01, 12:19 AM
That doesn't mean that you should steal the primary, most notable, most iconic class feature from the rogue. If the rogue isn't sneak attacking well, then the rogue should be fixed, not abandoned.



Awesomesauce Damage (Ex): Beginning at 1st level, the fighter deals an additional 1d4 damage on every successful attack. He adds an additional 1d4 damage at 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter.

There we go. Yes, it's only a d4, but given that it's added every time he deals damage, I think the trade-off is worth it, and the Fighter is no longer stepping on the rogue, who gets more dice at a trade-off of it being conditional.

(Actually that might be too good...maybe just for the fighter's first attack every turn. Turn, important, 'cause that will allow it to apply to out-of-turn attacks).

Or, you know, Skirmish. it fits the fighter more accurately and is only being taken from a class which at best is 5 levels long. that is a level Less then Fighter.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 12:31 AM
Or, you know, Skirmish. it fits the fighter more accurately and is only being taken from a class which at best is 5 levels long. that is a level Less then Fighter.

Eh, Skirmish depends on mobility, and not every fighter is going to want to be mobile (or at least take the time to move the 10 feet...no, it doesn't sound like much, but when you're in melee with something with a 15 foot reach, that's exposing yourself to an awful lot of AoOs just for extra damage).

Also I'm not a fan of stealing class features...can't the Fighter stand on his own?

bobthe6th
2013-01-01, 12:52 AM
Eh, Skirmish depends on mobility, and not every fighter is going to want to be mobile (or at least take the time to move the 10 feet...no, it doesn't sound like much, but when you're in melee with something with a 15 foot reach, that's exposing yourself to an awful lot of AoOs just for extra damage).

then not every fighter can have it. We could hand out a set of optional precision options.
So one fighter gets skirmish, another gets sudden strike(known as SA but worse), a third gets +2 damage to their attacks, a fourth adds elemental damage to their strikes, a fifth can take a standard action to smite for +some damage for a round. options are the name of the game here.

toapat
2013-01-01, 12:55 AM
Also I'm not a fan of stealing class features...can't the Fighter stand on his own?

And the edition was added to over 9 years of time. During that, many classes were published, some worthy of their idea, others lacking half the class features needed, and some rendered completely useless by the restrictions put on them.

Im currently stewing A rogue Brew made from Rogue, Assassin, Shadowdancer, and i need to determine if a dash of Swashbuckler or duelist would best finish the class

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 01:14 AM
And the edition was added to over 9 years of time. During that, many classes were published, some worthy of their idea, others lacking half the class features needed, and some rendered completely useless by the restrictions put on them.

I understand that, I'm just a bigger fan of coming up with new things for the class in question, rather than stealing things from other classes to finish them.

That or just adding on ACFs made for the class. Actually that's probably my favorite fix: take the base class, add on the stuff Pathfinder made, and then looking over Dungeonscape and PHBII and other sources (including this site) and start adding things on.

Oh, and making sure that every class gets Listen and Spot as class skills.

You'd be surprised what that can do.

toapat
2013-01-01, 01:32 AM
I understand that, I'm just a bigger fan of coming up with new things for the class in question, rather than stealing things from other classes to finish them.

That or just adding on ACFs made for the class. Actually that's probably my favorite fix: take the base class, add on the stuff Pathfinder made, and then looking over Dungeonscape and PHBII and other sources (including this site) and start adding things on.

Oh, and making sure that every class gets Listen and Spot as class skills.

You'd be surprised what that can do.

yes, and your results are not exceptional.

the way GW's Hybrid Classing and DnD multiclassing work is to allow you to carve a character out of a set of general concepts. Except typically in 3.5 classes were too narrow already and the few classes which are broad are vastly overpowered.

No number of ACFs can change that either.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-01, 01:33 AM
There are multiple classes that get spells and already multiple classes that get Sneak Attack. I see no problem to giving the Fighter SA, especially since SA neatly encapsulates an entire school of fighting. Skirmish I would also not object to, provided it was implemented better than Scout did it.

Class features don't need to be unique to a class. Certainly many striking and iconic ones (such as Mettle) are not.

toapat
2013-01-01, 01:41 AM
There are multiple classes that get spells and already multiple classes that get Sneak Attack. I see no problem to giving the Fighter SA, especially since SA neatly encapsulates an entire school of fighting. Skirmish I would also not object to, provided it was implemented better than Scout did it.

Class features don't need to be unique to a class. Certainly many striking and iconic ones (such as Mettle) are not.

The arguement against sneak attack is not that it is bad, or unoriginal (unless you are rogue shadows which is his possition specifically), it is primarily a "It doesnt feel right for fighter"

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 01:44 AM
yes, and your results are not stellar.

Depends on your goal. It certainly adds versatility, especially since ACFs are typically designed to allow a class to do something they couldn't do before or fill in somewhere where they were previously lacking...which is sort of the goal of "fixing" a class in the first place


There are multiple classes that get spells and already multiple classes that get Sneak Attack.

I love it when people actually read my posts, it makes my day, yes it does...

As I said, spells have never been a class-specific feature, and while Sneak Attack appears on all sorts of classes, the only classes that get a full Sneak Attack progression are typically* trying to ape the Rogue anyway.

---------------------------
*Actually I can't think of one that isn't, now that I think about it.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-01, 01:47 AM
The arguement against sneak attack is not that it is bad, or unoriginal (unless you are rogue shadows which is his possition specifically), it is primarily a "It doesnt feel right for fighter"

I've got two novels by Jeff Grubb that want words with you. It feels just fine for a Fighter (and also for a Ranger, but this isn't the Ranger thread), especially for a pragmatic fighter. Maybe you're getting hung up on the idea of using Hide/Move Silently? But an SA-enabled fighter doesn't have to have those things, and can instead focus on combat tricks that cause flat-footed enemies and other nifty goodies of that nature.

toapat
2013-01-01, 01:48 AM
As I said, spells have never been a class-specific feature, and while Sneak Attack appears on all sorts of classes, the only classes that get a full Sneak Attack progression are typically trying to ape the Rogue anyway.

The rogue is an extremely good example of a class that, even moreso then fighter, was split apart into many.

Spellthief, Shadowdancer, Assassin, Duelist, and swashbuckler are obvious ones to name of classes that are simply parts of the rogue.


I've got two novels by Jeff Grubb that want words with you. It feels just fine for a Fighter (and also for a Ranger, but this isn't the Ranger thread), especially for a pragmatic fighter. Maybe you're getting hung up on the idea of using Hide/Move Silently? But an SA-enabled fighter doesn't have to have those things, and can instead focus on combat tricks that cause flat-footed enemies and other nifty goodies of that nature.

Precision damage: Fine, very much a fighter
Sneak Attack: No. Because sneak attacking doesnt flow with the fighter's concept. The fighter is to Outfight his opponents, through subtly, superior skill, and miss direction. Sneak attacking is more along the lines of trading any opening for advantage, not the right opening.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 01:53 AM
The rogue is an extremely good example of a class that, even moreso then fighter, was split apart into many.

Spellthief, Shadowdancer, Assassin, Duelist, and swashbuckler are obvious ones to name of classes that are simply parts of the rogue.

Well, Assassin, Shadowdancer, and Duelist are prestige classes trying to represent specific archetypes, so I wouldn't count them.

Swashbuckler and Spellthief both were in optional splatbooks.


Sneak Attack: No. Because sneak attacking doesnt flow with the fighter's concept.

"Fight me and you die." That's the Fighter's concept. Having said that, he should be able to do additional damage, but I rather like my idea of him just adding d4s of damage to his first attack each turn.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-01, 02:09 AM
Precision damage: Fine, very much a fighter
Sneak Attack: No. Because sneak attacking doesnt flow with the fighter's concept. The fighter is to Outfight his opponents, through subtly, superior skill, and miss direction. Sneak attacking is more along the lines of trading any opening for advantage, not the right opening.

The hell are you talkin' about, Willis?

Sneak Attack triggers on flanking and flat-footed enemies. Flanking is perfectly in-line with a fighter's concept (as it's creating advantage for the fighter and his allies). Flat-footing an enemy is also in line with a fighter's concept(s), through such tactics as feints (very skillful), ripostes, sucker blows (ever seen a sword fight in a movie where one of the combatants punches his enemy in the face after they cross blades), superior physical skill and just plain distraction. How is this "trading any opening"? Hell, how is it TRADING anything?

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 02:14 AM
The hell are you talkin' about, Willis?

And just to cement the fact that there are centrists to every argument, I actually agree with you here, that a Sneak Attack does not necessarily represent a backstab.

I just don't like crampin' the Rogue's style.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-01, 02:21 AM
I just don't like crampin' the Rogue's style.

Factotum already did that. I feel no guilt for dividing the corpse of Rogue's style up amongst those classes more worthy of it.

toapat
2013-01-01, 03:10 AM
The hell are you talkin' about, Willis?

Sneak Attack triggers on flanking and flat-footed enemies. Flanking is perfectly in-line with a fighter's concept (as it's creating advantage for the fighter and his allies). Flat-footing an enemy is also in line with a fighter's concept(s), through such tactics as feints (very skillful), ripostes, sucker blows (ever seen a sword fight in a movie where one of the combatants punches his enemy in the face after they cross blades), superior physical skill and just plain distraction. How is this "trading any opening"? Hell, how is it TRADING anything?

The most reliable trigger of Sneak attack after 2 rounds is going to be flanking unless the party wizard enjoys grease and color spray.

Getting into flanking is not particularly conducive to the fighter's excellent form. Nor do they have the Distracting attack class feature so that they can punch people in the face in the right way to get those sneak attacks.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 09:46 AM
The most reliable trigger of Sneak attack after 2 rounds is going to be flanking unless the party wizard enjoys grease and color spray.

Aren't those two of the best 1st-level spells in the SRD? Just sayin'...


Factotum already did that. I feel no guilt for dividing the corpse of Rogue's style up amongst those classes more worthy of it.

Again, optional splatbook verses core rules (SRD, even). It's okay for a non-core class to invalidate a core class, but all 11 of the core classes should be able to play evenly alongside each other.

Say at the end of this thread when we have ourselves a nice high Tier-4/somewhere in Tier-3 Fighter, the Fighter has stolen Sneak Attack from the Rogue. So when we start up a community-fix-the-Rogue thread with the intention of creating a Rogue that can play alongside this Fighter, with the Rogue no longer "worthy" of Sneak Attack, what the Hell is its primary class feature going to be? It's niche is gone, so now we have to create an entirely new niche? Or will it get a better sneak attack then the Fighter? It's cool if it gets a better sneak attack then the Fighter, but then again it already gets that, so why not give the Fighter a slightly worse one then the current one? Because otherwise the Rogue fix will probably have to start at +2d6 at 1st level and advance like a good save to stay competative

Or, more succinctly, might I suggest that it's bad design to fix one core class by invalidating another core class? Yes, there are core classes that already invalidate other core classes, but then again this is generally regarded as a flaw, not something to emulate.

And this should be especially true with the four classic archetypes of Warrior, Rogue, Priest, and Mage.

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 10:34 AM
Claim.

I'm pretty sure the outstanding claim is Grod_the_Giant's, but since he's been inactive for fifteen hours since his turn came up, I think that means I'm up.

Change Log:

Added Devastating Strike and Deadly Strike.
Removed Sneak Attack as redundant with Devastating Strike and Deadly Strike.


Those class features were both meant for a rogue fix, but since they're both intentionally tanky abilities and many people regard the fighter as a tank, I think they fit well enough to serve as the fighter's standard damage source.



The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Devastating Strike|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5||
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style, Deadly Strike|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Victor of Endless Wars, Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5)|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter special abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest effective bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses and abilities to any weapon he wields.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but she is still at her most dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

From 3rd level onwards, as long as she has a swift action available, the first time in a given round that a fighter hits with an attack, she deals an additional 1d6 damage per class level. This damage does not stack with damage from sneak attack or other precision-based damage, and is not multiplied on a critical hit.

Devastating Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within not more than three range increments, and weaponlike spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Unlike sneak attack, is not prevented by concealment, immunity to critical hits, or lack of discernible anatomy.

The fighter may not make devastating strikes while she is using power attack, rage, or any other feat or special ability that imposes a penalty to her AC or attack rolls.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Deadly Strike (Ex): At 7th level, a fighter becomes adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses.

Whenever she performs a devastating strike, she deals an additional +2 damage per class level for each of the following criteria that applies to the target:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target lacks armour or natural armour.
The fighter is carrying, wearing, or wielding an object that is inimical to the target, as indicated by a property of that object or a quality of that creature.
The attack used deals damage to which the target is explicitly susceptible.


Whirlwind Defence (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defence.

A whirlwind defence grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-01, 11:12 AM
Aren't those two of the best 1st-level spells in the SRD? Just sayin'...



Again, optional splatbook verses core rules (SRD, even). It's okay for a non-core class to invalidate a core class, but all 11 of the core classes should be able to play evenly alongside each other.

Say at the end of this thread when we have ourselves a nice high Tier-4/somewhere in Tier-3 Fighter, the Fighter has stolen Sneak Attack from the Rogue. So when we start up a community-fix-the-Rogue thread with the intention of creating a Rogue that can play alongside this Fighter, with the Rogue no longer "worthy" of Sneak Attack, what the Hell is its primary class feature going to be? It's niche is gone, so now we have to create an entirely new niche? Or will it get a better sneak attack then the Fighter? It's cool if it gets a better sneak attack then the Fighter, but then again it already gets that, so why not give the Fighter a slightly worse one then the current one? Because otherwise the Rogue fix will probably have to start at +2d6 at 1st level and advance like a good save to stay competative

Or, more succinctly, might I suggest that it's bad design to fix one core class by invalidating another core class? Yes, there are core classes that already invalidate other core classes, but then again this is generally regarded as a flaw, not something to emulate.

And this should be especially true with the four classic archetypes of Warrior, Rogue, Priest, and Mage.

I'd say it's bad design to call the splatbook classes 'optional' as though they're somehow less worthy than the core classes, myself. There's plenty of core classes that are so narrow in concept they should've been PrCs; there's no need to hold them up as some kind of sacred cow, not to be touched.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-01, 11:15 AM
Sorry, I thought I had time, but I got called to do some errands, and then I went to a new year's party. I'm awake now, though, and working on finishing up my tweaks. Should be up soon.

On the subject of sneak attack invalidating the rogue: that might be true if we were granting a full progression. We're not. Each time you take the ability, you get 2d6 sneak attack die, up to a maximum of 1/2 your level. toapat, explain to me how exactly flanking is an inappropriate option for our skilled, tactical warrior? An option, mind, something you can pursue if you want or ignore if you don't like it?

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 11:49 AM
Sorry, I jumped in ahead. I've posted my changes, I guess we'll just renew your claim starting now.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-01, 11:55 AM
Changelog:

Added Uncanny Dodge/Imp. Uncanny Dodge as core class features
Added a bunch of fighter special abilities
EDIT: added compatibility with lesser_minion's changes what occurred while I was typing.
EDIT: switched Deadly and Devastating strike




The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Deadly Strike,|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Man over magic (adamantine)|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style, Devastating Strike|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Victor of Endless Wars, Man over magic (exotic)|
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, ,,,The Harder they Fall|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5)|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style, Man over magic (force)|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. A fighter may also change weapons and strap on or stow a shield as part of this action.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest effective bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses and abilitiesto any weapon he wields.

Deadly Strike (Ex): By 3th level, a fighter becomes adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses. He deals an additional +2 damage per class level for each of the following criteria that applies to the target:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target lacks armor or natural armor, and doesn't have levels in a class like Monk that gains AC bonus only when unarmored.
The fighter is carrying, wearing, or wielding an object that is inimical to the target, as indicated by a property of that object or a quality of that creature.
The attack used deals damage to which the target is explicitly susceptible.


The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Man Over Magic (Ex): At 5th level, a Fighter starts to become in tune with his weapons. Any weapon he wields is considered adamantine for hardness, HP, and overcoming Damage reduction. It also overcomes other objects harness as adamantine would.

At 9th level, his mastery becomes greater. His weapon is considered to be any exotic material(such as alchemical silver or byshek) for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

At 17th level, He masters his focus. His weapon overcomes all damage reduction, and can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that he is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, he doesn't make an actual attack).

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still at her most dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 7th level, as long as he has a swift action available, the first time in a given round that a fighter hits with an attack, he deals an additional 1d6 damage per class level. This damage does not stack with damage from sneak attack or other precision-based damage, and is not multiplied on a critical hit.

Devastating Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Unlike sneak attack, is not prevented by concealment, immunity to critical hits, or lack of discernible anatomy.

The fighter may not make devastating strikes while she is using power attack, rage, or any other feat or special ability that imposes a penalty to her AC or attack rolls.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC25 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 12:05 PM
Erm... Deadly Strike triggers when you perform a Devastating Strike. They aren't independent of each other.

And you missed the emergency edit to Devastating Strike. I'm not sure that there's really a balance issue to using Devastating Strike and Power Attack together, but I meant to forbid it because otherwise you'd be unduly favouring brute-fighters over skilled-fighters.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-01, 12:10 PM
Oh, whoops. I kind of like Deadly Strike as an independent ability, though, giving bonus damage whenever you have advantage over a foe. I feel like it fits better as a continual source of bonus damage than an all-or-nothing first round attack-- the fighter's in it for the long haul. Leave hit and run tactics to those sissy rogues and scouts!

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 12:21 PM
Well, it's never an all-or-nothing first-round attack, but it's meant to be flexible enough to fit with a lot of different themes.

The damage from deadly strike works out to +4 per class level against an opponent who could have been sneak attacked. That's vastly better than what the rogue gets (roughly +1.75). It's meant to be balanced on the basis that you only get to do it once per round, and the fact that it's a tanky ability and hard to use alongside defensive class features.

If it's just a flat bonus, then there's a pretty high risk that the rogue's now going to be crying himself to sleep every night.

Also, while I went the lazy route and said "explicitly susceptible", somebody probably needs to write an explanation of what that means.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-01, 01:46 PM
I'm not certain the wording 'strap on or stow' is appropriate w/r/t shields. Might I suggest 'equip' for the first part? Stow might be able to stay, but I dunno. RAW gets all funky sometimes.

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 02:03 PM
The existing wording is "ready or loose" -- readying a shield takes it from held to in use, and loosing it takes it from in use to held. So it should probably be "retrieve and ready" or "loose and stow".

Or we could simply have the wording be "you may take any action you can normally perform for free as part of a move".

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-01, 02:11 PM
+1d6/level/round seems a bit excessive, especially if you add the deadly strike bonuses...

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 02:36 PM
+1d6/level/round seems a bit excessive, especially if you add the deadly strike bonuses...

On its own, it's roughly equivalent to the sneak attack damage from two hits. Or a single delayed blast fireball. It gets better with the deadly strike bonuses, but I don't think it really qualifies as unbalancing.

It's also significantly weaker than you can get out of a disintegrate spell, although disintegrate does offer a save to mitigate against the damage.

And since devastating strike requires you to either not need or not use your IADs, there's a fairly high chance that you've either paid heavily for the opportunity to use it or your opponent was so weak that much of the damage is wasted anyway.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-01, 02:41 PM
On its own, it's roughly equivalent to the sneak attack damage from two hits. Or a single delayed blast fireball. It gets better with the deadly strike bonuses, but I don't think it really qualifies as unbalancing.

I'd be very concerned, actually. Deadly Strike can easily pull +40 damage per attack at level 20, and it's not that hard to up that to +80 damage per attack with flanking.

Adding a reliable +20d6 damage per round makes the Rogue feel ashamed (he has to set up Sneak Attacks, and has a worse attack bonus, so 2+ hits a round is actually somewhat unlikely), and brings this up to an absurd amount of damage potential.

Which is alarming, as dealing damage was never particularly a weak point of the Fighter. The issue was that he could ONLY deal damage.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-01, 02:55 PM
On its own, it's roughly equivalent to the sneak attack damage from two hits. Or a single delayed blast fireball. It gets better with the deadly strike bonuses, but I don't think it really qualifies as unbalancing.

It's also significantly weaker than you can get out of a disintegrate spell, although disintegrate does offer a save to mitigate against the damage.

And since devastating strike requires you to either not need or not use your IADs, there's a fairly high chance that you've either paid heavily for the opportunity to use it or your opponent was so weak that much of the damage is wasted anyway.

Sneak Attack is more situational. Spells are usable a limited number of times per day, and often (though, admittedly, not always) offer saving throws and/or SR. Not sure what you mean by IADs, but the ban on combining it with things like Power Attack struck me as pretty arbitrary.

How 'bout if it's just 1d6/2 levels, but we don't worry about adding Power Attack and suchlike? It's a pretty good bonus, since we're still adding normal weapon damage, but not quite so extreme.

EDIT: Or, we could just do Deadly Strike adding 1/level if any of the conditions are met.

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 02:59 PM
I'd be very concerned, actually. Deadly Strike can easily pull +40 damage per attack at level 20, and it's not that hard to up that to +80 damage per attack with flanking.

It can at the moment, but that's not how it was originally written. Originally, it was once a round. I think we've already covered the need to reduce the damage now that it isn't.


Adding a reliable +20d6 damage per round makes the Rogue feel ashamed (he has to set up Sneak Attacks, and has a worse attack bonus, so 2+ hits a round is actually somewhat unlikely), and brings this up to an absurd amount of damage potential.

If the fighter uses any of her defensive class features, she doesn't get to perform a devastating strike (and originally, she didn't get deadly strike either).

So either the fighter has to have accepted some amount of damage or a debuff in order to do this, or she has to have been ignored (in which case I think she's well within her rights to explain pretty clearly with graphic examples why that wasn't a good move).

And there are no fixes in a vacuum (I originally thought this up as a replacement for sneak attack, to give to the rogue). When it's the rogue's turn or the monk's turn to be fixed, they can have something equally good. You shouldn't be able to simply ignore a member of any character class in a fight, at least not without good reason.


Which is alarming, as dealing damage was never particularly a weak point of the Fighter. The issue was that he could ONLY deal damage.

The point here was to avoid forcing the fighter to build for damage, and make power attack a harder choice, since damage is something the fighter would be expected to do no matter what. This was not meant to be a straight damage increase on before, and this wasn't supposed to stack with the existing ways to increase damage.

As for spells being limited to a certain number per day, many can currently be used with impunity from an essentially safe location. The longest-ranged spells outrange nearly everything else in the game, and defensive spells don't usually stop you from casting offensive spells. And of course, disintegrate in the direct damage role is not usually considered the pinnacle of what a caster can do.

At the moment, it's quite a bit harder to pull a devastating strike off with impunity, especially since it's shut down by doing anything significant to defend yourself or another character.

But if people think this really is too powerful, I'm open to nerfing it. How about +1 damage/2 class levels per criterion for a deadly strike, with devastating strike coming in at 9th level and adding +2 damage/class level?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-01, 03:44 PM
But if people think this really is too powerful, I'm open to nerfing it. How about +2 damage/class level for a devastating strike and +1 damage/2 class levels per criterion for a deadly strike, with deadly strike remaining possible on every attack?

I'd go with only one of the two. Either:

Deadly Strike deals +1/level on all attacks that fit the criteria
Deadly Strike deals +1d6/2 levels on any attack that fits the criteria
Devastating Strike takes a swift action to deal +1d6/2 levels on one attack/round.

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 04:04 PM
We'd have to rewrite the criteria for deadly strike to do that -- the point at the moment is that you usually get at least some damage, and you can deal more the more vulnerable your target is. I think this is well worth having -- it means that constructs and the like enjoy the protections that the fluff suggests they should, but at the same time, you're never completely hosed against them.

The reason it's not actually a swift action to use a devastating strike is so that it doesn't compete with other cool stuff you can do as a swift action, like moving, although I guess it does complicate things a bit.

And, in case you're wondering, it needs to be 9th level because you get your first (and, at present, only) IAD at 8th level and the thing about using IADs switching off your devastating strike is supposed to actually be true.

Since I can, claim.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-01, 04:24 PM
What is an IAD?

lesser_minion
2013-01-01, 05:22 PM
Immediate Action Defence. Sorry to be unclear.

In any event, since I claimed:

Changelog:

Added Piercing Strike at 5th level, which I feel is a more elegant way of making the fighter good at dealing with DR.
Removed parts of Man over Magic that were redundant with Piercing Strike. Renamed the remaining part, and moved it to 15th level.
Applied my suggested changes to Deadly strike, changing of combat styles, and Devastating Strike, and made Devastating Strike a swift action.
Made Faster than Thought much easier to sustain.
Added an explanation of the damage done by Deadly Strike.
Made the bonus damage when using weapons inimical to a creature part of devastating strike, and set it at +1 per class level.



The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Deadly Strike,|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Piercing Strike|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing, Devastating Strike|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Victor of Endless Wars|
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought, The Harder they Fall|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8||
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5), Shatter Barrier|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. The fighter may also take this opportunity to draw or sheathe a weapon, and either retrieve and ready a shield or loose and stow it.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest effective bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses and abilitiesto any weapon he wields.

Deadly Strike (Ex): A fighter is adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses.
Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the fighter hits a target, she deals bonus damage equal to half her class level for each of the following that apply:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target has no armour or natural armour bonus to AC, and has no substitute for armour (any special ability that confers a bonus to AC while the creature remains unarmoured is considered a substitute for armour).


Deadly Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Damage from Deadly Strike is assumed to be a mix of force- and precision-based damage, and as such, stacks with neither power attack nor with other sources of precision-based damage such as sneak attack.

Deadly Strike used with a weapon deals the same type of damage as the weapon used would deal, ignoring bonus damage. When used with a spell or other effect that deals hit point damage, it deals damage of the same type. Otherwise, damage from Deadly Strike is negative energy damage.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Piercing Strike (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, if the fighter rolls enough damage for an attack that it is not completely negated by its target's hardness or damage reduction, neither hardness nor damage reduction may be applied to that attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended, at no risk to the fighter. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still incredibly dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 9th level, as a swift action, she may deal +2 damage per class level to an opponent she has just hit with an attack. This damage is treated as if it came from Deadly Strike, and is subject to the same restrictions.

Additionally, a fighter of this level knows how to make better use of a creature's particular banes. She deals bonus damage equal to her class level each time she deals damage to an opponent from a source that is inimical to that opponent.

Any weapon or other item that inflicts damage or harm to a creature that it would not otherwise inflict, on the basis of that creature's identity, race, alignment, type, or subtype, is inimical to that creature.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 11th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 12th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC20 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Shatter Barrier (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter's experience of dealing with magic allows her to defeat some magical protections. Her weapon can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that she is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, she doesn't make an actual attack).

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-01, 11:15 PM
Before I begin, I have a question: About what level would you say it'd be balanced, or something like it, for a class to gain a special ability that changes their standard turn to consist of two standard actions and a swift action, rather than a standard, a move, and a swift?

It's just, I'm looking over Spycraft d20. In Spycraft, they changed a few things about turn order around. There were no standard or move or full-round actions, there were just "full actions" and "half actions." Every character received two half-actions per turn, meaning that every character could move twice in a turn, or attack twice in a turn, or move-attack (there were no iterative attacks in Spycraft, it's worth noting). A half-action was basically a Standard action, in other words, and everyone recieved two Standard actions, which they could turn either or both into Move actions.

I'm...kind of liking the idea of the Fighter eventually getting two Standard actions per turn, rather than a Standard and a Move action.


On the subject of sneak attack invalidating the rogue: that might be true if we were granting a full progression. We're not. Each time you take the ability, you get 2d6 sneak attack die, up to a maximum of 1/2 your level.

I can support this.


I'd say it's bad design to call the splatbook classes 'optional' as though they're somehow less worthy than the core classes, myself. There's plenty of core classes that are so narrow in concept they should've been PrCs; there's no need to hold them up as some kind of sacred cow, not to be touched.

Neither the Fighter nor the Rogue are examples of such, however. Indeed along with the Cleric and the Wizard they are the broadest in concept.

Further, as a general rule I think that given splatbook X should balance against itself, and balance against Core, but it does not necessarily have to balance against any other splatbooks. Core should balance against everything because it's, well, Core, and that has to mean something, if for no other reason then absolutely every game of D&D can be assumed to have access to it.

So the Fighter should be able to balance against the, say, Hexblade, and vice-versa. A game played with the two of them should be able to have the Fighter have his niche, the Hexblade have his niche, and though there can be some overlap, the Fighter should always be able to do something better than the Hexblade, and the Hexblade should always be able to do something better than the Fighter.

But the same should not hold true for, example, the Hexblade and the Duskblade, since they're from two different splats, and not everyone can be assumed to have access to even one, let alone both, and while some effort should be made to keep the two distinct and balanced against each other, if one class is clearly better than the other, it's not a tremendous loss.

Every hear the phrase "charity begins at home?" Think of this as similar: Balance begins at Core.

(or it should, anyway)

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-02, 12:01 AM
Hmm. I do like that idea. No idea where the balance falls. It probably all depends on the power of the class in question. Might be OK on our boy the fighter; would be horrible on any sort of caster.

Off-topic argument:
I understand where you're coming from on the relative balance issue, and in an ideal world you'd be right. But the PHB is probably the single most imbalanced book in the edition-- it gives us the Cleric, Druid (with Natural Spell, mind you), and Wizard right alongside the Monk and the Fighter, and a lot of the worst spells-- Gate? Polymorph? Charm Person?

toapat
2013-01-02, 12:16 AM
But the PHB is probably the single most imbalanced book in the edition

Im not sure specifically the order, but im pretty certain these are the 5 worst books:

PHB
BoVD
Complete Mage
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine

while the most balanced are probably:
Complete Adventurer
PHB2
Dungeonscape
Dragon Compendium (with errata)

bobthe6th
2013-01-02, 12:25 AM
Before I begin, I have a question: About what level would you say it'd be balanced, or something like it, for a class to gain a special ability that changes their standard turn to consist of two standard actions and a swift action, rather than a standard, a move, and a swift?


well, problems start appearing as you start breaking the action economy. I would rather just start letting them have a full round action as a standard action at high levels. two standards could come earlier I guess... but it does have the potential for abuse by any casting class ever.

toapat
2013-01-02, 12:30 AM
well, problems start appearing as you start breaking the action economy. I would rather just start letting them have a full round action as a standard action at high levels. two standards could come earlier I guess... but it does have the potential for abuse by any casting class ever.

technically Full action+Move is obtainable by lvl 3, although full action + standard is more relyable.

if the fighter got the ability at lvl 11 i dont think it would really be game shattering.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 01:02 AM
Hmm. Claim. Is the line open? I think it is...


well, problems start appearing as you start breaking the action economy.

As long as achieving it requires a commitment to Fighter (I was thinking level 10, but 7 is probably reasonable) rather than a quick dip in the fighter pool, I don't think it'd damage anything too badly.


Hmm. I do like that idea. No idea where the balance falls. It probably all depends on the power of the class in question. Might be OK on our boy the fighter; would be horrible on any sort of caster.

Oh, no, this thing shouldn't be allowed near any kind of full caster; maybe something like the paladin or ranger, but certainly not a bard, let alone a wizard or cleric. At least, not without a sizable commitment to the Fighter class first; you shouldn't dip for this.

I've actually been thinking of plundering Spycraft for a lot of mundane tricks...the Soldier class gets a lot of neat stuff like armor use, portable cover, and a neat thing at 14th level called One in a Million (once per session, any one STR, DEX, or CON-based roll, including attack rolls, Fort and Ref saves, and physical skill checks, is automatically a natural 20, which can be confirmed as a crit as normal).

There's other neat stuff, too...point being that the entire system was designed to be a d20 system that never had any magic but was still full of neat stuff for high-level characters. Most of it is centered on spy-type stuff and ranged combat with guns, of course, but it's definitely worth pilfering.

Favorite thing about the Spycraft core rulebook: the equipment table includes Martini (shaken).

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 01:36 AM
Changelog:

Added Versatile Actions, which is that two standard action thing I threatened earlier.
I pushed Victor of Endless Wars and Faster than Thought up level each (to 12th and 13th, respectively), to make room for Versatile Actions at 11th level and to spread the class abilities out a bit. I'm not married to this change, though.
Some general grammar/syntax edits that I didn't bother to highlight


The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Deadly Strike|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Piercing Strike|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing, Devastating Strike|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Versatile Actions |
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|The Harder They Fall, Victor of Endless Wars|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought|
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5), Shatter Barrier|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. The fighter may also take this opportunity to draw or sheathe a weapon, and either retrieve and ready a shield or loose and stow it.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned something about magical weapons. He may chose to have the highest effective bonus granting weapon in his possession(carried somewhere on his person) apply all relevant magical bonuses and abilitiesto any weapon he wields.

Deadly Strike (Ex): A fighter is adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the fighter hits a target, she deals bonus damage equal to half her class level for each of the following that apply:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target has no armour or natural armour bonus to AC, and has no substitute for armour (any special ability that confers a bonus to AC while the creature remains unarmoured is considered a substitute for armor).

Deadly Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Damage from Deadly Strike is assumed to be a mix of force- and precision-based damage, and as such, stacks with neither power attack nor with other sources of precision-based damage such as sneak attack.

Deadly Strike used with a weapon deals the same type of damage as the weapon used would deal, ignoring bonus damage. When used with a spell or other effect that deals hit point damage, it deals damage of the same type. Otherwise, damage from Deadly Strike is negative energy damage.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Piercing Strike (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, if the fighter rolls enough damage for an attack that it is not completely negated by its target's hardness or damage reduction, neither hardness nor damage reduction may be applied to that attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended, at no risk to the fighter. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so, they can make a number of attacks equal to the number they chose not to make as free actions at any time until their next turn.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still incredibly dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 9th level, as a swift action, she may deal +2 damage per class level to an opponent she has just hit with an attack. This damage is treated as if it came from Deadly Strike, and is subject to the same restrictions.

Additionally, a fighter of this level knows how to make better use of a creature's particular banes. She deals bonus damage equal to her class level each time she deals damage to an opponent from a source that is inimical to that opponent.

Any weapon or other item that inflicts damage or harm to a creature that it would not otherwise inflict, on the basis of that creature's identity, race, alignment, type, or subtype, is inimical to that creature.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Versatile Actions (Ex): The fighter is an adept combatant, able to maximize the effectiveness of his every step and swing in combat. Beginning at 11th level, a fighter receives two standard actions on each of his turns, rather than a standard action and a move action. Each of the fighter's standard actions may be turned into move actions, as normal. This allows a fighter to make two attacks at his full base attack bonus each turn (provided he doesn't otherwise move except to make a 5-foot step), drink two potions, activate two spell completion items, and so on.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 13th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC 20 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Shatter Barrier (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter's experience of dealing with magic allows her to defeat some magical protections. Her weapon can end any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that she is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, she doesn't make an actual attack).

Done

lesser_minion
2013-01-02, 04:52 AM
On second thoughts, I think I probably want to drop Devastating Strike and leave it to rogues, buff Deadly Strike to make up for it, and make the bonus for using bane weapons and the like into a whole new class feature that ties into Champion of a Thousand Battles. Any thoughts?

Also, since we have explicit changelogs in the posts now, can we please stop highlighting things in red? Since the post editor isn't Wysiwyg, it's a pain in the ass to track down all of the highlights from the last edit.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-02, 11:31 AM
I actually really like the red... it's usually not that big a deal (unless you're me and changing a lot of things), and it really helps when you're scanning through the post to find the new stuff. You can always cut-and-paste to Word or something to get rid of it all quickly with find-and-replace.

3WhiteFox3
2013-01-02, 04:00 PM
I'm not a prior-contributor, but seeing this thread, and liking the concept that is being played out; I thought that it might be helpful for those who are currently contributing to the fix to have an outside opinion on the class.

WARNING: Extremely Long Post incoming.

What I like: I like the ideas here that contribute to make the fighter stronger conceptually. One of the big problems with the fighter has always been that the fluff built up the fighter as someone who could fill many different concepts, but the execution did not hold up. Looking at the fix, it seems that the different concepts of the fighter can actually hold up mechanically.

I like the versatility that the combat styles give, I like that the fix gets to do things with feats that other classes can't do (by ignoring certain prerequisites) it gives the class a much needed unique mechanic. The core concept of the fighter gaining the bulk of it's power from feats still exists in the fix, but the feats alone aren't having to carry the entirety of the weight. The class also has multiple options that come from it's various class features, something the core fighter needed badly.

What I am wary about: My main concern is that this class is jam-packed with nifty stuff. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it feels a bit over-whelming; one of the few strengths of the fighter (though one that was done better by other classes) was that it was simple, and if you wanted to just smack something, you were fine if for the low/mid-op player. The fix is elegant for the most part, but the sheer number of abilities and options may make for daunting work for both DM and player. The DM has to know just what the class can do at any moment and the player needs to understand what options he has available. My only advice is to maybe examine which abilities are absolutely necessary for the fix to play as intended, or to make it easier to keep track of the many abilities.

Another concern is when is the fix going to be considered done. Is there a goal Tier that you want it to be, or things that it needs to be able to do? As an artist, one of the most difficult things to do is know when something is finished and doesn't need any more tweaking, something that I imagine might prove an issue here. For example, if you keep adding features without thinking about what the final product should look like, you won't ever have a good place where you can say 'I feel that the fix is complete, let's stop here'.


Specific Concerns:

Artifice: I feel that this ability is poorly thought out, or at least, isn't written very well. As it is, it is open to abuse because of it's open-ended nature. The most glaring issue is the fact that if you take a +5 effective bonus dart it only costs 1000 gp 5 sp, and you get to make all of your weapons much more effective than they should be for the level. The other issue is that it isn't clear on what happens if you have more than 1 weapon with the highest effective bonus (ex: a +1 Holy Dart and a +1 Collision Dart). It allows the fighter to have practically any magical bonus that he might want, but at the cost of having to really min-max your equipment to get the most out of it. It also seems tacked on and unnecessary, and the class would be fine without it.

Perfect War Skill: How does this interact with Epic Feats? Will it allow you to take them despite not being 21st level, is that considered a prerequisite? What if you are a dragon-wrought kobold (For the sake of argument, assume that DWKs are True Dragons) could you gain feats whose prerequisites are ignored by Perfect War Skill?

Rapid Repositioning: Does the movement trigger attacks of opportunity, I assume it does, but it might be good to clarify it.

Whirlwind Defense: This ability is extremely strong for an at-will immediate action defense gained at level 8. The improved cover is nice, but it's the 50/50 chance to ignore pretty much anything that comes his way that's over the top. It's also not 100% clear what is affected by it and what isn't, for example if the fighter is hit by a grease spell, would he get his to apply his Whirlwind Defense for the 50% failure? What about Time Stop? Or Force Cage?

My problem isn't necessarily the power of it either, it's that you can do it every round as a no-brainer. It doesn't add options or increase tactical depth, it's an ability that is only limited 1/round. I would suggest either making it a swift action (so that foes know in advance who has the defense) or limiting it's uses to per day or even per encounter. Another idea would be to have it only work against 1 effect that it would apply to. In fact, the limiter that is placed on Faster Than Thought (having to make a fighter level check or lose the ability for a number of rounds) might help mitigate the power of Whirlwind Defense. You should have to decide when and how you want to use it, it makes the ability more interesting.

I realize that it costs you your Swift Action, but really, it's so much of a no-brainer defensively (especially because it works on your allies too) that no other usage of your Swift Action seems to be able to compete; ex: Devastating Strike only gives out a +2 damage/class level for your swift, and a 50% chance of avoiding practically anything far outweighs that.

Timing: When the fighter chooses to not make his +4 BaB attack from his Full Attack Pattern, would the gained attack also be at +4 BaB? According to the RAW, it seems like you would simply make another attack at full BaB, since you just gain an extra attack, not the one you sacrificed. The same question could be asked of it's combination with flurry of blows, or any other method of gaining extra attacks but with attack penalties.

Faster Than Thought: How does the fighter being so fast allow her allies to hide? IFAIK, all you need to hide is concealment, which FTT explicitly gives out. I just don't see why such a thing is needed, or how it helps the broad concept of a fighter, it's ok for certain archetypes, but to me it feels out of place. I realize that the fighter at this point is level 13 and should have strong , possibly unrealistic effects to back him/her up, I just don't see why I as a player could really justify the ability.

Shatter Barrier: At least give it some chance at failure, maybe make it a dispel check with a caster level = to fighter level. I don't like things that arbitrarily say yes or no to something, that's what caster's do that breaks the game. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I apologize for the length of this post, and I don't want to be argumentative or cause any issues. But I do want to elaborate on what I feel about how the class is currently operating. I may even work on it myself at some point.

bobthe6th
2013-01-02, 05:26 PM
Extensive response.

also, claim


What I am wary about: My main concern is that this class is jam-packed with nifty stuff. While that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it feels a bit over-whelming; one of the few strengths of the fighter (though one that was done better by other classes) was that it was simple, and if you wanted to just smack something, you were fine if for the low/mid-op player. The fix is elegant for the most part, but the sheer number of abilities and options may make for daunting work for both DM and player. The DM has to know just what the class can do at any moment and the player needs to understand what options he has available. My only advice is to maybe examine which abilities are absolutely necessary for the fix to play as intended, or to make it easier to keep track of the many abilities.


The problem is that if we don't offer options, their is less power out of the box. Though a lot of the stuff should probably just be feat options rather then actual class features.



Another concern is when is the fix going to be considered done. Is there a goal Tier that you want it to be, or things that it needs to be able to do? As an artist, one of the most difficult things to do is know when something is finished and doesn't need any more tweaking, something that I imagine might prove an issue here. For example, if you keep adding features without thinking about what the final product should look like, you won't ever have a good place where you can say 'I feel that the fix is complete, let's stop here'.


Well, see that would lead to further argument. I see this as going for T3, but others don't like to use the system ect. something should be devised though.



Artifice: I feel that this ability is poorly thought out, or at least, isn't written very well. As it is, it is open to abuse because of it's open-ended nature. The most glaring issue is the fact that if you take a +5 effective bonus dart it only costs 1000 gp 5 sp, and you get to make all of your weapons much more effective than they should be for the level. The other issue is that it isn't clear on what happens if you have more than 1 weapon with the highest effective bonus (ex: a +1 Holy Dart and a +1 Collision Dart). It allows the fighter to have practically any magical bonus that he might want, but at the cost of having to really min-max your equipment to get the most out of it. It also seems tacked on and unnecessary, and the class would be fine without it.


Now, see that is a loop hole that could be filled by just stating ammunition doesn't count as a weapon for artifice.
Also, it fixes the very real problem that you don't have the WBL to have more then one level appropriate weapon... so if we want to see fighters with more then one, there needs to be a way to have other options for free.

This was meant for a fighter in a game were the DM wants to hand out the loot. If the DM is willing to give the fighter the option to just get a free GMW on any weapon they carry... then that would be a better version.



Whirlwind Defense: This ability is extremely strong for an at-will immediate action defense gained at level 8. The improved cover is nice, but it's the 50/50 chance to ignore pretty much anything that comes his way that's over the top. It's also not 100% clear what is affected by it and what isn't, for example if the fighter is hit by a grease spell, would he get his to apply his Whirlwind Defense for the 50% failure? What about Time Stop? Or Force Cage?


yeah... I feel this should be a fighter bonus option, with some different wording.



Timing: When the fighter chooses to not make his +4 BaB attack from his Full Attack Pattern, would the gained attack also be at +4 BaB? According to the RAW, it seems like you would simply make another attack at full BaB, since you just gain an extra attack, not the one you sacrificed. The same question could be asked of it's combination with flurry of blows, or any other method of gaining extra attacks but with attack penalties.


I will add the one line to make it clear the attacks are at the original bonus.

also flury penalty applies through the entire round.




Faster Than Thought: How does the fighter being so fast allow her allies to hide? IFAIK, all you need to hide is concealment, which FTT explicitly gives out. I just don't see why such a thing is needed, or how it helps the broad concept of a fighter, it's ok for certain archetypes, but to me it feels out of place. I realize that the fighter at this point is level 13 and should have strong , possibly unrealistic effects to back him/her up, I just don't see why I as a player could really justify the ability.


again, should be a fighter bonus option.




Shatter Barrier: At least give it some chance at failure, maybe make it a dispel check with a caster level = to fighter level. I don't like things that arbitrarily say yes or no to something, that's what caster's do that breaks the game. Two wrongs don't make a right.


Well, dispel checks are a pain. also, this is what disintegrate does... sort of what was being emulated.

I could see making it a dispel check though.

bobthe6th
2013-01-02, 05:43 PM
Changelog:

fixed timings wording.
added dispelling to shatter barrier
fixed artifice, made it HD based so it never stops working.


The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Deadly Strike|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Piercing Strike|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing, Devastating Strike|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Versatile Actions |
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|The Harder They Fall, Victor of Endless Wars|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought|
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5), Shatter Barrier|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. The fighter may also take this opportunity to draw or sheathe a weapon, and either retrieve and ready a shield or loose and stow it.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned to empower his weapons with his fighting spirit. Any weapon he wields is gains a +1 enhancement bonus, +1 at eight HD and every four HD their after. This bonus is lost after the weapon leaves the hands of the fighter for an entire round. The bonus is superseded by any greater enhancement bonus on any weapon he wields, and the weapons abilities apply normally.

Deadly Strike (Ex): A fighter is adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the fighter hits a target, she deals bonus damage equal to half her class level for each of the following that apply:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target has no armour or natural armour bonus to AC, and has no substitute for armour (any special ability that confers a bonus to AC while the creature remains unarmoured is considered a substitute for armor).

Deadly Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Damage from Deadly Strike is assumed to be a mix of force- and precision-based damage, and as such, stacks with neither power attack nor with other sources of precision-based damage such as sneak attack.

Deadly Strike used with a weapon deals the same type of damage as the weapon used would deal, ignoring bonus damage. When used with a spell or other effect that deals hit point damage, it deals damage of the same type. Otherwise, damage from Deadly Strike is negative energy damage.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Piercing Strike (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, if the fighter rolls enough damage for an attack that it is not completely negated by its target's hardness or damage reduction, neither hardness nor damage reduction may be applied to that attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended, at no risk to the fighter. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so they can make the attack as a free action at any point until their next turn, at the same bonus as when they first tried to make the attack.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still incredibly dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 9th level, as a swift action, she may deal +2 damage per class level to an opponent she has just hit with an attack. This damage is treated as if it came from Deadly Strike, and is subject to the same restrictions.

Additionally, a fighter of this level knows how to make better use of a creature's particular banes. She deals bonus damage equal to her class level each time she deals damage to an opponent from a source that is inimical to that opponent.

Any weapon or other item that inflicts damage or harm to a creature that it would not otherwise inflict, on the basis of that creature's identity, race, alignment, type, or subtype, is inimical to that creature.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Versatile Actions (Ex): The fighter is an adept combatant, able to maximize the effectiveness of his every step and swing in combat. Beginning at 11th level, a fighter receives two standard actions on each of his turns, rather than a standard action and a move action. Each of the fighter's standard actions may be turned into move actions, as normal. This allows a fighter to make two attacks at his full base attack bonus each turn (provided he doesn't otherwise move except to make a 5-foot step), drink two potions, activate two spell completion items, and so on.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 13th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC 20 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Shatter Barrier (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter's experience of dealing with magic allows her to defeat some magical protections. Her weapon can make a dispel check against any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that she is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, she doesn't make an actual attack). This dispels as greater dispel magic, with no caster level limit, and uses the fighters HD as her caster level.




Done

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 08:23 PM
I would change Artifice to say "class level" instead. Not a single class in all of D&D mentions HD when referring to how its own abilities scale, they refer to either class level or character level - and there's a good reason for this.

Among other things, as worded right now a creature with 17 HD as, I dunno, an Outsider, and 3 levels of Fighter, would gain Artifice and get to wield +5 weapons as long as it had at least one +5 weapon. Similarly a Bard 17/Fighter 3 gets +5 weapons from Artifice as it is currently worded.

Also, I don't think mentioning that the bonus doesn't stack with other weapon bonuses is necessary. It's specifically typed as an enhancement bonus, which already means that that it would overlap rather than stack, and anyone who plays D&D should know this already since the only typed bonus that stacks with itself is a dodge bonus.

bobthe6th
2013-01-02, 08:51 PM
I would change Artifice to say "class level" instead. Not a single class in all of D&D mentions HD when referring to how its own abilities scale, they refer to either class level or character level - and there's a good reason for this.


no, there's really not. HD scaling actually makes sense as racial HD=levels, so making them not count for scaling is an issue. Their is no real good way I know of (besides bards giving 2 HD with a 9th level song) to add HD cheap.



Among other things, as worded right now a creature with 17 HD as, I dunno, an Outsider, and 3 levels of Fighter, would gain Artifice and get to wield +5 weapons as long as it had at least one +5 weapon. Similarly a Bard 17/Fighter 3 gets +5 weapons from Artifice as it is currently worded.


and he is a 20th ECL character... he would normally get a +5 weapon way earlier. Also, the 17HD outsider is going to be a ECL 20 creature... so it needs a +5 weapon.

I could see moving it to 7, were this stops being dip and starts being a third of your final level.



Also, I don't think mentioning that the bonus doesn't stack with other weapon bonuses is necessary. It's specifically typed as an enhancement bonus, which already means that that it would overlap rather than stack, and anyone who plays D&D should know this already since the only typed bonus that stacks with itself is a dodge bonus.

I think nat ac stacks?...
but it is more of a reminder that the bonus won't override a higher bonus weapon.

Amechra
2013-01-02, 09:04 PM
To answer about your concerns on Perfect War-Skill, it only let's you pick Fighter feats for your Combat Styles, ignoring ability score and feat prerequisites.

Epic feats require you to be at least 21st level to take unless otherwise stated, and Perfect War-Skill boosts your BAB, not your level.

I thought about these things when I made it.

And, if your DM holds that Dragonwrought Kobolds are True Dragons (they aren't by RAW; I can't recall the thread where this thing was finally put to rest.), yes, it would work like that.

Alright, I have a concern of my own...

Namely, what are plans for PrCing with this version of the Fighter? As it stands, most classes that have PrCs for them have maybe 1 or two things that can be easily scaled.

In the current fix, you have the following:

1. Perfect War-Skill (shut up, it's my BABY, I want it on top. :smallwink:)
2. Number of Combat Styles
3. Number of Feats in said Combat Styles
4. A buncha things that independently scale by Fighter level.

Now, what of these would you want to scale with entering a PrC? I would say 1, 2, and 3, with maybe some of 4 getting some scaling.

Just something to consider.

One thing that I think is kinda sad-making, in my mind, is that you crazy kids, in designing this class, didn't build off of each-other.

One of the main things that I personally look for in homebrew base classes is how everything in the class fit together, both thematically and mechanically.

As it is, we could consolidate some things (I'm thinking that, if the queue is free, I'll Claim to do some consolidation); one example of what I'm thinking of is just having Artifice based of the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, which would give you +6 weapons by the time you hit 18th level (yes, this does let you pierce DR/Epic... at the time when it starts appearing. As is appropriate.)

Another thing is that, for Damaging Strike, I have an odd idea: what if it, instead of adding half of your Fighter level each time one of the conditions is met, you instead added any static damage bonus that your feats give you an additional time for each condition they meet, not counting any condition that they already met? Though this might be a tad excessive...

Consider that, if a Fighter takes Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization in a weapon, they add +12 to the damage by 18th level. If they took, say, Melee/Ranged Weapon Mastery, that increases to +18 damage on all attacks.

Considering that you need Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus to take those feats, you can essentially always fall back on a fighting style that will give you +18 to attack and damage with a specific weapon.

Remember, feat bonuses stack with each-other; Fighters, due to Perfect War-Skill, don't really need a class feature that adds damage.

If they want to focus on dealing damage, it takes 5 feats for them to get (minimum at level 20, using the current form of Artifice, and assuming that physical stats are all dumped) an attack load-out of +50/+45/+40/+35.

The highest AC in the Monster Manual is AC 40.

If the Fighter really wants to, he could take Luck of Heroes (plus 1 to all saves) and any of the +2 to saves feats, and get a +6 to all saves, and a +12 to the one save he cares about.

Finally, you want something nice for a skill? Maybe Diplomacy? An 18th level Fighter with Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Negotiator has a +12 to all Diplomacy checks, before skill checks and the like. I daresay that there are other feats that give some piddly bonus to Diplomacy somewhere.

Sorry for rambling, but... yeah.
***

tl;dr: The Fighter doesn't need any class features that give it higher numbers; Perfect War-Skill gives them them caster-level numbers if they invest.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 09:12 PM
Claim
This is actually the first - and last - time I'm going to claim something just to change wording.


no, there's really not. HD scaling actually makes sense as racial HD=levels, so making them not count for scaling is an issue. Their is no real good way I know of (besides bards giving 2 HD with a 9th level song) to add HD cheap.

It's still dissonant again...also, though they work nearly identically, HD =/= class or character level. Or would you call a young adult Red dragon the equivalent of a 19th level character? Because I sure as Hell wouldn't, and neither would WotC, given that they only put its CR at 13, when a 19th-level character should be CR 19. This is something that WotC undoubtedly actually got right.

(beware, a young adult red gets access to third level spells second level spells because they get casting like a sorcerer! WOOOoooOOOooo...!)


and he is a 20th ECL character... he would normally get a +5 weapon way earlier.

Except that Artifice as currently worded allows you to transform the +1 on an enchanted weapon into a +5. So that selfsame Bard 17/Fighter 3 can now have a +5 vorpal longsword (a +10 weapon) for the cost of a +1 vorpal longsword (a +6 weapon), for example, by simply also possessing a +5 dagger (I'm using vorpal because it's the only high-bonus ability I know off the top of my head it's cost equivalent for, but you can apply that to any weapon special ability), all for a measly 3-level dip into Fighter.

We should be trying to reward commitment to the Fighter as a class, not rewarding having only taken three levels in it.

Amechra
2013-01-02, 09:18 PM
Just make it scale off of Perfect War-Skill; bam, if you stay in the Fighter class (or related PrCs), you get an Epic weapon at 18th level.

bobthe6th
2013-01-02, 09:20 PM
It's still dissonant again...also, though they work nearly identically, HD =/= class or character level. Or would you call a young adult Red dragon the equivalent of a 19th level character? Because I sure as Hell wouldn't, and neither would WotC, given that they only put its CR at 13, when a 19th-level character should be CR 19. This is something that WotC undoubtedly actually got right.

(beware, a young adult red gets access to third level spells! WOOOoooOOOooo...!)


ok, dragons are the corner example. They get weird HD, and really have no place being PCs or having character levels. And beside that, it is physicaly imposible for a dragon to wield weapons unless it changes to a huminoid form... which makes it really weak as a monster.



Except that Artifice as currently worded allows you to transform the +1 on an enchanted weapon into a +5. So that selfsame Bard 17/Fighter 3 can now have a +5 vorpal longsword (a +10 weapon) for the cost of a +1 vorpal longsword (a +6 weapon), for example, by simply also possessing a +5 dagger (I'm using vorpal because it's the only high-bonus ability I know off the top of my head it's cost equivalent for, but you can apply that to any weapon special ability), all for a measly 3-level dip into Fighter.


as I said, level 7 is probably a better slot. but I really doubt having a +10 equivalent for +6 is going to wow anyone at level 20.

Amechra
2013-01-02, 09:23 PM
Dragons aren't weak monsters. At all. They are severely under-CRed.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 09:26 PM
ok, dragons are the corner example. They get weird HD, and really have no place being PCs or having character levels. And beside that, it is physicaly imposible for a dragon to wield weapons unless it changes to a huminoid form... which makes it really weak as a monster.

The dragon was a fine example, but very well: would you call an elder earth elemental the equivalent of a 24th level character? A medusa the equivalent of a 6th level character? A fire giant the equivalent of a 15th level character?


as I said, level 7 is probably a better slot. but I really doubt having a +10 equivalent for +6 is going to wow anyone at level 20.

It might do so, however, at lower levels when +6 weapons become available - level 14 or so, according to the progression of the OA Samurai's Ancestral Daisho, which seems like a good base.


Dragons aren't weak monsters. At all. They are severely under-CRed.

I don't doubt that, but I would not call a young adult red dragon the equivalent of a 19th level character or anything like it despite it having 19 HD, and don't lie, you wouldn't either.

(A huge chunk of the dragon's power is in their spellcasting, as well, and remember that a young adult red only get 2nd level spells)

bobthe6th
2013-01-02, 10:18 PM
Dragons aren't weak monsters. At all. They are severely under-CRed.

I meant If the polymorph into anything with hands... short of some kind of giant. They lose everything besides spell casting and their mental stats. No natural weapons, no breath attack, not insane reach, no massive Nat AC...


Really though, high HD monsters are a corner case, and dragons especially are not advanced with character levels.

also, making it scale with fighter levels makes it suck so much. Really, just no. Kinda? no. Just no. Now any multi classing makes it suck, as does any prcs. Like a lot of class abilities, it should scale with character level.

TuggyNE
2013-01-02, 10:18 PM
Side note: DWK, despite not being true dragons, still qualify for [epic] feats if they're at least Venerable (since the exception is tied to the Dragon type, not being a true dragon).

Amechra
2013-01-02, 10:28 PM
If you're worrying about it scaling with class because it becomes weak if you PrC, then set aside some time to write some PrCs.

Most of the power of a class comes not just from itself, but from where you can go from it.

bobthe6th
2013-01-02, 10:53 PM
um, rogue... you totally hopped the que. So yeah, invalidated and all that. Amechra had and continues to have claim... so, be patient, as you said yourself.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 11:19 PM
Claim
(See below as to why I'm doing this)


um, rogue... you totally hopped the que. So yeah, invalidated and all that. Amechra had and continues to have claim... so, be patient, as you said yourself.


Further, if someone makes a claim, but then does not do anything, they're skipped after 1 hour.

I can't even find Amercha's claim, but the point is that it was well over the 1-hour limit, and so the que was open.

EDIT
Okay, never mind, I just found it, buried deep in a wall of text.

Well, it has now been well over the 1-hour limit, so please refer to the top of this post.

This is why, in the original thread, I suggested that everyone stake their claim in one post and post their change in a separate post.

(This is also why, in the original thread, I had a 4-hour limit, not a 1-hour limit)

Also, moving forward, I move that claims are only valid if the claim is the very first thing in the post.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 11:24 PM
(This is simply me moving the post what contained my previous change and does not in fact contain any new information concerning the Fighter)

Changelog:

I changed Artifice to be based on class level rather than HD. No class in D&D has an ability that scales based on HD, and it makes the Fighter a too attractive 3-level dip. A Bard 17/Fighter 3 should not be able to get the full benefit of Artifice.


The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Artifice, Deadly Strike|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Piercing Strike|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing, Devastating Strike|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Versatile Actions |
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|The Harder They Fall, Victor of Endless Wars|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought|
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5), Shatter Barrier|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. The fighter may also take this opportunity to draw or sheathe a weapon, and either retrieve and ready a shield or loose and stow it.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): A Fighter ignores any prerequisites for feats that don't involve BAB, skill ranks, or class features, but only when selecting feats for their Combat Styles.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Artifice(Su): At third level, a fighter has learned to empower his weapons with his fighting spirit. Any weapon he wields is gains a +1 enhancement bonus. This bonus increases by +1 at eighth level and every four fighter levels thereafter. This bonus is lost after the weapon leaves the hands of the fighter for an entire round. The bonus is superseded by any greater enhancement bonus on any weapon he wields, and the weapons abilities apply normally.

Deadly Strike (Ex): A fighter is adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the fighter hits a target, she deals bonus damage equal to half her class level for each of the following that apply:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target has no armour or natural armour bonus to AC, and has no substitute for armour (any special ability that confers a bonus to AC while the creature remains unarmoured is considered a substitute for armor).

Deadly Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Damage from Deadly Strike is assumed to be a mix of force- and precision-based damage, and as such, stacks with neither power attack nor with other sources of precision-based damage such as sneak attack.

Deadly Strike used with a weapon deals the same type of damage as the weapon used would deal, ignoring bonus damage. When used with a spell or other effect that deals hit point damage, it deals damage of the same type. Otherwise, damage from Deadly Strike is negative energy damage.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Piercing Strike (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, if the fighter rolls enough damage for an attack that it is not completely negated by its target's hardness or damage reduction, neither hardness nor damage reduction may be applied to that attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended, at no risk to the fighter. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so they can make the attack as a free action at any point until their next turn, at the same bonus as when they first tried to make the attack.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still incredibly dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 9th level, as a swift action, she may deal +2 damage per class level to an opponent she has just hit with an attack. This damage is treated as if it came from Deadly Strike, and is subject to the same restrictions.

Additionally, a fighter of this level knows how to make better use of a creature's particular banes. She deals bonus damage equal to her class level each time she deals damage to an opponent from a source that is inimical to that opponent.

Any weapon or other item that inflicts damage or harm to a creature that it would not otherwise inflict, on the basis of that creature's identity, race, alignment, type, or subtype, is inimical to that creature.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Versatile Actions (Ex): The fighter is an adept combatant, able to maximize the effectiveness of his every step and swing in combat. Beginning at 11th level, a fighter receives two standard actions on each of his turns, rather than a standard action and a move action. Each of the fighter's standard actions may be turned into move actions, as normal. This allows a fighter to make two attacks at his full base attack bonus each turn (provided he doesn't otherwise move except to make a 5-foot step), drink two potions, activate two spell completion items, and so on.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 13th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC 20 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Shatter Barrier (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter's experience of dealing with magic allows her to defeat some magical protections. Her weapon can make a dispel check against any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that she is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, she doesn't make an actual attack). This dispels as greater dispel magic, with no caster level limit, and uses the fighters HD as her caster level.

Done

Amechra
2013-01-02, 11:29 PM
My claim was tentative anyway (probably shouldn't have bolded it...)

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-02, 11:31 PM
My claim was tentative anyway (probably shouldn't have bolded it...)

Fair enough; no hard feelings, then?

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-03, 12:05 AM
Claim-- I'd like to take Amechra's suggestion and merge Artifice with Perfect War Skill. Also make it (Ex), because it really bothers me that the fighter has actual magical abilities. (There is precedent-- the monk's speed boost is (Ex) but an enhancement. It's silly, but there you go).

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-03, 12:12 AM
Changelog:

Artifice is now based on Perfect War Skill numbers
Artifice is now (Ex) and has a new name.
Simplified the wording on Perfect War Skill a bit-- it should work out the same, but has a short list of options instead of a long list of exceptions. Probably less likely to be abused with a format like that.



The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Weapon Mastery, Deadly Strike|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Piercing Strike|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing, Devastating Strike|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Versatile Actions |
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|The Harder They Fall, Victor of Endless Wars|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought|
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5), Shatter Barrier|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6)|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. The fighter may also take this opportunity to draw or sheathe a weapon, and either retrieve and ready a shield or loose and stow it.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): When selecting feats for their combat styles, a Fighter may ignore prerequisites involving other feats.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): By third level, a fighter knows how to get the most out of his weapons. Any weapon he wields is treated as having an enhancement bonus equal to the bonus from his Perfect War Skill ability. Weapons lose this effective enhancement bonus at the end of the round after they leave his hands.

Deadly Strike (Ex): A fighter is adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the fighter hits a target, she deals bonus damage equal to half her class level for each of the following that apply:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target has no armour or natural armour bonus to AC, and has no substitute for armour (any special ability that confers a bonus to AC while the creature remains unarmoured is considered a substitute for armor).

Deadly Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Damage from Deadly Strike is assumed to be a mix of force- and precision-based damage, and as such, stacks with neither power attack nor with other sources of precision-based damage such as sneak attack.

Deadly Strike used with a weapon deals the same type of damage as the weapon used would deal, ignoring bonus damage. When used with a spell or other effect that deals hit point damage, it deals damage of the same type. Otherwise, damage from Deadly Strike is negative energy damage.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Piercing Strike (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, if the fighter rolls enough damage for an attack that it is not completely negated by its target's hardness or damage reduction, neither hardness nor damage reduction may be applied to that attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended, at no risk to the fighter. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so they can make the attack as a free action at any point until their next turn, at the same bonus as when they first tried to make the attack.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still incredibly dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 9th level, as a swift action, she may deal +2 damage per class level to an opponent she has just hit with an attack. This damage is treated as if it came from Deadly Strike, and is subject to the same restrictions.

Additionally, a fighter of this level knows how to make better use of a creature's particular banes. She deals bonus damage equal to her class level each time she deals damage to an opponent from a source that is inimical to that opponent.

Any weapon or other item that inflicts damage or harm to a creature that it would not otherwise inflict, on the basis of that creature's identity, race, alignment, type, or subtype, is inimical to that creature.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Versatile Actions (Ex): The fighter is an adept combatant, able to maximize the effectiveness of his every step and swing in combat. Beginning at 11th level, a fighter receives two standard actions on each of his turns, rather than a standard action and a move action. Each of the fighter's standard actions may be turned into move actions, as normal. This allows a fighter to make two attacks at his full base attack bonus each turn (provided he doesn't otherwise move except to make a 5-foot step), drink two potions, activate two spell completion items, and so on.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 13th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC 20 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Shatter Barrier (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter's experience of dealing with magic allows her to defeat some magical protections. Her weapon can make a dispel check against any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that she is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, she doesn't make an actual attack). This dispels as greater dispel magic, with no caster level limit, and uses the fighters HD as her caster level.

toapat
2013-01-03, 12:18 AM
Claim-- I'd like to take Amechra's suggestion and merge Artifice with Perfect War Skill. Also make it (Ex), because it really bothers me that the fighter has actual magical abilities. (There is precedent-- the monk's speed boost is (Ex) but an enhancement. It's silly, but there you go).

You dont have to defend PHB Monk, they are after all the one of the worst designed classes in the game.

about the only classes i can think of that are worse designed are CW samurai (Aka I want to be an even more shallow and weak ranger, the class) and CA Ninja. I can at least honestly tell people they would get some mileage out of X levels of fighter. Monk, Ninja, or Samurai? nope

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-03, 12:26 AM
Oh, the monk is terrible on several levels. I'm just defending (ex) enhancement bonuses.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-03, 10:48 AM
Claim
Still seems very empty in the later levels...hmm...

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-03, 11:19 AM
Changelog:

Added a 20th-level capstone ability. It's probably not very good.



The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Weapon Mastery, Deadly Strike|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Piercing Strike|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing, Devastating Strike|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4)|
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Versatile Actions |
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|The Harder They Fall, Victor of Endless Wars|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought|
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9||
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5), Shatter Barrier|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6), Death Blow|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. The fighter may also take this opportunity to draw or sheathe a weapon, and either retrieve and ready a shield or loose and stow it.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): When selecting feats for their combat styles, a Fighter may ignore prerequisites involving other feats.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): By third level, a fighter knows how to get the most out of his weapons. Any weapon he wields is treated as having an enhancement bonus equal to the bonus from his Perfect War Skill ability. Weapons lose this effective enhancement bonus at the end of the round after they leave his hands.

Deadly Strike (Ex): A fighter is adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the fighter hits a target, she deals bonus damage equal to half her class level for each of the following that apply:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target has no armour or natural armour bonus to AC, and has no substitute for armour (any special ability that confers a bonus to AC while the creature remains unarmoured is considered a substitute for armor).

Deadly Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Damage from Deadly Strike is assumed to be a mix of force- and precision-based damage, and as such, stacks with neither power attack nor with other sources of precision-based damage such as sneak attack.

Deadly Strike used with a weapon deals the same type of damage as the weapon used would deal, ignoring bonus damage. When used with a spell or other effect that deals hit point damage, it deals damage of the same type. Otherwise, damage from Deadly Strike is negative energy damage.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Piercing Strike (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, if the fighter rolls enough damage for an attack that it is not completely negated by its target's hardness or damage reduction, neither hardness nor damage reduction may be applied to that attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended, at no risk to the fighter. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so they can make the attack as a free action at any point until their next turn, at the same bonus as when they first tried to make the attack.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still incredibly dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 9th level, as a swift action, she may deal +2 damage per class level to an opponent she has just hit with an attack. This damage is treated as if it came from Deadly Strike, and is subject to the same restrictions.

Additionally, a fighter of this level knows how to make better use of a creature's particular banes. She deals bonus damage equal to her class level each time she deals damage to an opponent from a source that is inimical to that opponent.

Any weapon or other item that inflicts damage or harm to a creature that it would not otherwise inflict, on the basis of that creature's identity, race, alignment, type, or subtype, is inimical to that creature.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Versatile Actions (Ex): The fighter is an adept combatant, able to maximize the effectiveness of his every step and swing in combat. Beginning at 11th level, a fighter receives two standard actions on each of his turns, rather than a standard action and a move action. Each of the fighter's standard actions may be turned into move actions, as normal. This allows a fighter to make two attacks at his full base attack bonus each turn (provided he doesn't otherwise move except to make a 5-foot step), drink two potions, activate two spell completion items, and so on.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 13th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC 20 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Shatter Barrier (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter's experience of dealing with magic allows her to defeat some magical protections. Her weapon can make a dispel check against any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that she is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, she doesn't make an actual attack). This dispels as greater dispel magic, with no caster level limit, and uses the fighters HD as her caster level.

Death Blow (Ex): By 20th level, the fighter has become a master of combat - and of killing. Every successful attack made by the Fighter deals 1 point of Constitution damage.

In addition, a fighter that spends three consecutive rounds engaged in combat with a the same enemy has learned that enemy's weaknesses and can land a death blow. As a full-round action, he can make a single melee attack. If the attack hits, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC = damage dealt) or be immediately reduced to -1 hit points, or else immediately die if the target of the attack is a creature that can't be reduced to negative hit points (such as undead). If the target succeeds on the save, it still takes damage as normal. Regardless of whether the attack succeeds or fails, the fighter can't use his Death Blow on the same creature more than once in a 24 hour period.

Done
Note that Death Blow is not, in fact, a death effect.

Amechra
2013-01-03, 12:09 PM
Grod the Giant... you actually removed the ability for Fighters to ignore ability score prereqs for feats.

I know, that one wasn't immediately obvious, but it was there.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-03, 12:17 PM
I noticed that, but I figured that... whoops, no, the ability modifier replacement won't cover that. Fail.:smallredface:

Amechra
2013-01-03, 12:51 PM
I'm Claiming this right now. I has stuff that'll make the Fighter smile.

Amechra
2013-01-03, 01:17 PM
Changelog:

Added a 6th level feature that allows for a massive increase in the amount of versatility a Fighter has (they could Power Attack with a bow, or use Rapid Shot with a sword.)
Added a 14th level feature that basically lets a Fighter show anyone that they are fighting that they are better than them. By removing their proficiencies in all of their weapons, armor, and shields temporarily.
Added the ability to ignore ability score prerequisites with Perfect War-Skill back to the ability.
Fixed a few discrepancies.



The Fighter
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Any, Listen, Profession, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim and Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Int modifier)x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Combat Style Feat Count|
Perfect War Skill

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|Combat Style, Perfect War Skill|
1|
+ 0

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Champion of a Thousand Battles, Uncanny Dodge|
2|
+ 0

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Weapon Mastery, Deadly Strike|
2|
+ 1

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Rapid Repositioning (5ft/2 class levels), The Bigger they Are (1)|
3|
+ 1

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Determination, Bonus combat style (3), Piercing Strike|
3|
+ 1

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Improved Uncanny Dodge, Glorious Combat Mastery|
4|
+ 2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Swift Combat Style|
4|
+ 2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Whirlwind Defense, The Bigger they Are (2)|
5|
+ 2

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Timing, Devastating Strike|
5|
+ 3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7| Bonus combat style (4), |
6|
+ 3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+7| Versatile Actions |
6|
+ 3

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+8|The Harder They Fall, Victor of Endless Wars|
7|
+ 4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+8|Faster then thought|
7|
+ 4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+9|Scatter Weaklings|
8|
+ 4

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+9|Bonus combat style (5), Shatter Barrier|
8|
+ 5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+10||
9|
+ 5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Immediate Combat Style|
9|
+ 5

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11||
10|
+ 6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Bonus combat style (6), Death Blow|
11|
+ 6[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (not including tower shields).

Combat Styles: At level one, a Fighter creates two Combat Styles. To create a Combat Style, choose a one feat you qualify for.

At the beginning of each day, the Fighter chooses a Combat Style to be his active Combat Style. A Fighter has access to feats in a given Combat Style only when he has that Combat Style as his active Combat Style.

As a move action, a Fighter may shift his Combat Style to any other Combat Style he knows, changing his Combat Style feats to fit the feats granted by the new Combat Style. The fighter may also take this opportunity to draw or sheathe a weapon, and either retrieve and ready a shield or loose and stow it.

At every even level afterwards the Fighter adds an additional feat to each of his Combat Styles. He must meet all prerequisites for these additional feats, although he may use feats within a given Combat Style to qualify for these prerequisites (a Fighter with Power Attack as a normal feat and Cleave in his first Combat Style could take Great Cleave, but only in his first Combat Style. He would have to select a different feat for his other Combat Styles). Additionally, the Fighter can chose a Fighter Alternate Class Feature or an ability from the "fighter special abilities" list(see below) he meets the requirements for instead of a feat.

Fighter Special Abilities


Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Strength 15
Effect: You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. You gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.

In addition, you gain a special benefit when making bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).

Flurry of Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: When taking a standard or full-round action to attack, you may make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus; however, all attacks you make that round take a -2 penalty.

Insightful Blows
Requirements: None
Effect: You may add your Intelligence modifier to ranged and melee damage rolls.

Two-Weapon Flurry (Ex)
Requirements: Two-Weapon Fighting
Effect: Any time you may make a single melee attack, such as when attacking as a standard action or making an attack of opportunity, you may also make a single attack with your off-hand.

Extended Intimidate (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: A target you successfully
intimidate suffers lasting effects. Instead of ending when you leaves, as is normal for the Intimidate skill, the intimidation effect lasts for 24 hours after
your departure. Thereafter, the target’s attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly, but a lingering fear remains. Whenever you return to someone you have previously intimidated, you gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check to re-establish the effect.

Fast Grab
Requirements: Fighter level 4, Improved Grapple
Effect: After striking a foe up to one size category larger than you with an unarmed strike, flail, spiked chain, or similar weapon, you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: At 8th level, you may use this ability on foes up to two size categories larger than you, and at 12th level, you may use it on any foe, regardless of size.

Master Archer
Requirements: Fighter level 4
Effect: You ignore wind effects when using ranged weapons, including spells like wind wall.

Elusive Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to one-third your fighter level, rounded up.

Improved Dungeoncrasher (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6, Dungeoncrasher
Effect: The bonuses from your Dungeoncrasher ability when dealing with traps increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break
objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.

Controlling the Field (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: The area you threaten doubles. In addition, all movement-- including five-foot steps and Tumble checks-- within your threatened area provokes attacks of opportunity. Spells and class features can't overcome this effect unless their caster level or class level is higher than your fighter level.

Pounce (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 6
Effect: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Heroic Charge (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effect: When charging, you may move up to five times your speed.

Swift Demoralization
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You may use the demoralize opponent aspect of the Intimidate skill as a swift action rather than as a standard action.

Unstoppable (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 8
Effects: You permanently gain the benefits of a freedom of movement spell, except for the clauses that enable you to automatically resist and escape grapples.

Halting Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 10
Effects: Any foe you strike with an attack of opportunity stops moving immediately, and cannot move for the remainder of their turn. If the attack of opportunity was provoked by an action, they must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or have the action fail.

Counterattack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest
base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.

Crippling Strike
Requirements: Fighter level 12
Effect: As a standard action, you may make a crippling strike. Make a single attack. If it hits, you deal damage as normal, and the target must make a Fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 plus one-half your Fighter level plus your Strength modifier or take Strength or Dexterity damage (your choice) equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, depending on if your attack is melee or ranged.

Greater Flurry
Requirements: Fighter level 12, Flurry of Blows
Effect: When using Flurry of Blows, you may make a second attack at your highest base attack bonus.

Overpowering Attack (Ex)
Requirements: Fighter level 16
Effect: As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn.


At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Fighter gains an additional Combat Style, with a number of feats equal to the number in his other Combat Styles, as though he had always had an additional combat style.

At level 7 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as a Swift action. At level 17 the Fighter may shift his Combat Style as an Immediate action.

A Fighter may use the feats granted by his Combat Style to qualify for Prestige Classes and/or other feats, but he loses the benefits of these Prestige Classes and/or feats when in a Combat Style that does not grant him the needed prerequisites.

Perfect War-Skill (Ex): When selecting feats for their combat styles, a Fighter may ignore prerequisites involving other feats and ability scores.

For all purposes, a Fighter may use either their Perfect War-Skill bonus or their physical ability score modifiers, whichever would be higher. For example, a 12th level Fighter with a Dexterity of 8 would have a +4 bonus to their AC from Dexterity, would get +4 to their Reflex saves, and would get 4 additional attacks of opportunity if they took Combat Reflexes.

In addition, a Fighter of at least 3rd level adds the bonus listed in the Perfect War-Skill column to their BAB for the purpose of prerequisites; finally, if a feat gives a static numerical bonus, use the feat's bonus or the bonus from Perfect War-Skill, whichever is higher.

Champion of a Thousand Battles (Ex): A fighter lacks the extensive formal education of a wizard, but he knows how to kill. Beginning at second level, he may use a swift action to make a special Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his fighter level plus his Intelligence modifier to identify monsters and their special powers and vulnerabilities. In addition, he receives an insight bonus to attack and armor class against that type of creature, based on the result of his roll:

{table]Check Result|Bonus Granted
10-15|+1
16-20|+2
21–25|+3
26–30|+4
31+|+5[/table]

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a fighter already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Weapon Mastery (Ex): By third level, a fighter knows how to get the most out of his weapons. Any weapon he wields is treated as having an enhancement bonus equal to the bonus from his Perfect War Skill ability. Weapons lose this effective enhancement bonus at the end of the round after they leave his hands.

Deadly Strike (Ex): A fighter is adept at targeting her opponents' weak points and taking advantage of their weaknesses. Beginning at 3rd level, whenever the fighter hits a target, she deals bonus damage equal to half her class level for each of the following that apply:

The target is unconcealed, not fortified, susceptible to critical hits, and has a discernible anatomy.
The target is flat-footed, denied her dexterity bonus to AC, or is flanked by the fighter.
The target has no armour or natural armour bonus to AC, and has no substitute for armour (any special ability that confers a bonus to AC while the creature remains unarmoured is considered a substitute for armor).

Deadly Strike may be used with melee attacks, ranged attacks made within one range increment, and weapon-like spells used on targets within a range of 30 feet. Damage from Deadly Strike is assumed to be a mix of force- and precision-based damage, and as such, stacks with neither power attack nor with other sources of precision-based damage such as sneak attack.

Deadly Strike used with a weapon deals the same type of damage as the weapon used would deal, ignoring bonus damage. When used with a spell or other effect that deals hit point damage, it deals damage of the same type. Otherwise, damage from Deadly Strike is negative energy damage.

The Bigger They Are... (Ex): A true warrior knows that size is not the same thing as strength. Beginning at 4th level, when attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, a fighter gains a +4 bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and the like, effectively cancelling out one size category's worth of difference.

At 8th level, this bonus improves to +8 against foes who are two size categories or more larger than him, effectively cancelling out two size categories worth of difference. Against foes one size larger than him, this bonus is still only +4. For example, a human fighter would have a +4 bonus to grapple checks against and ogre (large size), but a +8 bonus against a cloud giant (huge size).

Rapid Repositioning (Ex): The fighter is adept at reading the flow of battle and quickly repositioning herself to be in the right place at the right time. From 4th level onwards, she may move up to 5ft per two class levels as an immediate action. This movement may use any medium for which she has a corresponding speed.

If this class feature is used to interrupt another character's action, the movement granted becomes subject to an 'en passant' rule: the fighter is treated as occupying her original space, her destination space, and every space she passes through during her move. If she interrupted an attack that passed through one of these spaces, she grants cover to the target of that attack.

Note that a creature may be hit by attacks against which it conferred cover on another creature, even if it was not the original target.

Determination (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, a fighter gains a bonus equal to half his class level to all Fortitude and Will saves to resist effects that would restrict his actions, including (but not limited to) death effects, petrification and polymorph effects, compulsion effects, and anything that would be blocked by the Freedom of Movement spell.

Piercing Strike (Ex) : Beginning at 5th level, if the fighter rolls enough damage for an attack that it is not completely negated by its target's hardness or damage reduction, neither hardness nor damage reduction may be applied to that attack.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 6th level and higher, a fighter can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the fighter by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has fighter levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Glorious Combat Mastery (Ex): A Fighter of at least 6th level treats every attack made by or against them as if it was using both a melee and a ranged weapon, and is both a melee and a ranged attack, selecting whichever is better for the Fighter in a given situation.

For example, if a 6th level Fighter has the Deflect Arrows feat, they can, once per round, make any attack against them, regardless of whether or not it is a ranged attack, automatically miss.

Whirlwind Defense (Ex): The fighter is adept at anticipating threats and reacting to defend herself from them.

As an immediate action, a fighter of 8th level or higher may protect herself against a single attack using a whirlwind defense.

A whirlwind defense grants omnidirectional improved cover to the character being defended, at no risk to the fighter. Additionally, each attack, spell, or other effect directed against a character protected by a whirlwind defense has a 50% chance of being denied line of effect altogether. Note that even though this is effectively a percentage chance for an attack to miss, it is not a miss chance.

If a fighter uses whirlwind defense against an attack of opportunity, the attack of opportunity automatically fails and is wasted unless the attacker can normally make attacks of opportunity against opponents with cover.

Whirlwind Defense is effective against incorporeal creatures, but unless the fighter has force attacks or a weapon that can strike incorporeal beings equally effectively, only grants ordinary cover against them, with no chance of interrupting line of effect.

Timing(Ex):At 9th level, a fighter knows just when to strike with his weapon. At any point during their turn, they can chose not to make an attack they would normally make. So in a full attack action, they can chose to not take one of the attacks. If they do so they can make the attack as a free action at any point until their next turn, at the same bonus as when they first tried to make the attack.

Devastating Strike (Ex): The fighter is adept at rising to the challenge when threatened by an enemy, but he is still incredibly dangerous when nobody pays attention to her.

Beginning at 9th level, as a swift action, she may deal +2 damage per class level to an opponent she has just hit with an attack. This damage is treated as if it came from Deadly Strike, and is subject to the same restrictions.

Additionally, a fighter of this level knows how to make better use of a creature's particular banes. She deals bonus damage equal to her class level each time she deals damage to an opponent from a source that is inimical to that opponent.

Any weapon or other item that inflicts damage or harm to a creature that it would not otherwise inflict, on the basis of that creature's identity, race, alignment, type, or subtype, is inimical to that creature.

...The Harder They Fall (Ex): By 12th level, a fighter is a master at redirecting a foe's force. When attempting a combat maneuver against a larger foe, he gains a bonus to opposed Strength checks, grapple checks, and so on equal to his opponent's size bonus.

This ability effectively replaces The Bigger They Are...

Versatile Actions (Ex): The fighter is an adept combatant, able to maximize the effectiveness of his every step and swing in combat. Beginning at 11th level, a fighter receives two standard actions on each of his turns, rather than a standard action and a move action. Each of the fighter's standard actions may be turned into move actions, as normal. This allows a fighter to make two attacks at his full base attack bonus each turn (provided he doesn't otherwise move except to make a 5-foot step), drink two potions, activate two spell completion items, and so on.

Victor of Endless Wars (Ex): Beginning at 12th level, the insight bonus from Champion of a Thousand Battles also applies to damage rolls and any check made as part of a combat maneuver attempt, such as opposed strength checks. In addition, if a fighter gets a result of at least 25 on his knowledge check, his attacks bypass that foe's regeneration, always doing lethal damage.

Faster than Thought (Ex): From 13th level onwards, a fighter may, as a swift action, enter a state of heightened awareness, during which she thinks so far ahead of her enemies that they are almost incapable of doing something that she cannot counter. The benefits of this class feature last until the start of the fighter's next turn.

While in this state of heightened awareness, the fighter protects the entire area within a radius of 5ft per two class levels of her.

Allies within this area, including the fighter herself, receive the benefits of whirlwind defense against all attacks, spells, and other hostile acts. Allies other than the fighter may forgo the whirlwind defense and claim total concealment instead. The fighter also threatens the entirety of her protected area.

Each time the fighter uses this class feature, she must make a DC 20 fighter level check or lose access to it for five rounds.

Scatter Weaklings (Ex): A Fighter of at least 14th level may choose to have any creature that they strike with a weapon of any sort, including their unarmed strike, lose any proficiencies that they have with weapons, armor, and shields.

This loss remains for as long as that creature remains within the Fighter's threatened area, or one round otherwise.

Shatter Barrier (Ex): At 15th level, the fighter's experience of dealing with magic allows her to defeat some magical protections. Her weapon can make a dispel check against any force effect(such as a wall of force or force cage) that she is adjacent to by making an attack(the attack just counts as used, she doesn't make an actual attack). This dispels as greater dispel magic, with no caster level limit, and uses the fighters HD as her caster level.

Death Blow (Ex): By 20th level, the fighter has become a master of combat - and of killing. Every successful attack made by the Fighter deals 1 point of Constitution damage.

In addition, a fighter that spends three consecutive rounds engaged in combat with a the same enemy has learned that enemy's weaknesses and can land a death blow. As a full-round action, he can make a single melee attack. If the attack hits, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC = damage dealt) or be immediately reduced to -1 hit points, or else immediately die if the target of the attack is a creature that can't be reduced to negative hit points (such as undead). If the target succeeds on the save, it still takes damage as normal. Regardless of whether the attack succeeds or fails, the fighter can't use his Death Blow on the same creature more than once in a 24 hour period.

Done

TuggyNE
2013-01-03, 07:28 PM
Death Blow (Ex): By 20th level, the fighter has become a master of combat - and of killing. Every successful attack made by the Fighter deals 1 point of Constitution damage.

In addition, a fighter that spends three consecutive rounds engaged in combat with a the same enemy has learned that enemy's weaknesses and can land a death blow. As a full-round action, he can make a single melee attack. If the attack hits, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC = damage dealt) or be immediately reduced to -1 hit points, or else immediately die if the target of the attack is a creature that can't be reduced to negative hit points (such as undead). If the target succeeds on the save, it still takes damage as normal. Regardless of whether the attack succeeds or fails, the fighter can't use his Death Blow on the same creature more than once in a 24 hour period.
[...]
Note that Death Blow is not, in fact, a death effect.

Unfortunately, undead and constructs are technically immune to it anyway: it's a Fort save effect that does not work on objects.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-03, 09:11 PM
Unfortunately, undead and constructs are technically immune to it anyway: it's a Fort save effect that does not work on objects.

Mmn...good point, but the point is that a, say, wizard's usual tricks to avoid death effects, will not protect him from this.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-04, 12:05 PM
So, here's a question.

Assuming we stopped right here, what tier would this class be in? Would it be considered "fairly balanced" alongside the likes of a bard or warblade? How about a sorcerer? A wizard?

toapat
2013-01-04, 12:27 PM
By definitions of the Tier system? T4. Simply because you cant just keep piling on "can be relevant in combat" no matter what and exceed T4. you are good at 1 thing.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 12:27 PM
Assuming we stopped right here, what tier would this class be in? Would it be considered "fairly balanced" alongside the likes of a bard or warblade? How about a sorcerer? A wizard?

My guess is a Tier 4. Here's why:

Firstly, this Fighter is FAR superior in combat ability when compared to the old Fighter. He's also less dependent upon his given set of tricks, although not as much as I think this fix THINKS it is (Combat Styles, Dungeon Crasher, Intimidate tricks, Crippling Strike, Glorious Combat Master, effective size-changing and Scatter Weaklings are all he really has that do anything other than raw damage).

The problem is that it's not enough to escalate him up anything but a single Tier. He's now capable of doing one thing (combat) EXTREMELY well (under many, but not all, conditions), but still can't really contribute aside from a few skills in a variety of more varied encounters. He still has very obvious weaknesses, and challenging him still doesn't take much thought.

In short, I think he's been buffed in a counter-intuitive way with what I think the goals of the Fighter should be. He has gained a lot of power in his niche of "if its willing to fight me on my ground, I'll kill it dead," but he hasn't really expanded his capabilities in other situations that much. As such, he doesn't really compare to the Warblade (in terms of anything but raw numbers, where I think this Fighter wins), let alone the Sorcerer or Wizard.

My conclusion is that it is numerically overpowered in straight combat, and still not useful enough outside of a knock-down, drag-out fight. If you want a more in-depth analysis of why I feel this way, let me know.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-04, 12:36 PM
I don't think the Warblade is really that much more versatile than our boy here-- both get 4 skill points/level with a decent list, and both can contribute in a wide variety of combat situations. Although, to be fair, I'm not positive that the Warblade really deserves T3.

But in any case... what do you suggest we do to add out-of-combat stuff? Personally, I like either a secondary Int or Cha focus-- the first moving into tactics and know-it-all terrain, and the second starting to eat the Marshal, and improving talky bits.

(Oh, and I would be interested in seeing a bit more in-depth look at why you think his numbers are too big, and what abilities are at fault for that)

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-04, 12:49 PM
Actually as I've mentioned in the past, I'm okay with Fighters being T4 as defined as "does one thing (combat) extremely well."

So, having achieved that, I, at least, have nothing more to contribute. Though I'm not opposed to further beefing if'n y'all like, but the point is I'm satisfied.


"if its willing to fight me on my ground, I'll kill it dead,"

Well, that's what magic items that allow flying are for. And ranged weapons. I understand that magic items aren't usually included as part of Tier calculations, but I think it's balanced enough, unless anyone can think of a meaningful way for Fighters to pull things from the sky and/or other planes through their own sheer skill.

Hmm...a fighter so good with his sword that he can actually tear open a portal to the Astral, Etheral, or Shadow...that's actually kinda' neat, but probably well outside of the fighter's flavor.


Although, to be fair, I'm not positive that the Warblade really deserves T3.

I'm actually with you on this one...when, exactly, is a Warblade useful outside of combat in ways that a fighter with the same skill points is not?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 01:09 PM
I don't think the Warblade is really that much more versatile than our boy here-- both get 4 skill points/level with a decent list, and both can contribute in a wide variety of combat situations. Although, to be fair, I'm not positive that the Warblade really deserves T3.

The Warblade has a number of maneuvers with out-of-combat utility though: he can improve his saves, gain scent, jump farther, bolster his allies, overcome hardness, remove status effects, grant extra turns, among others. Additionally, he has more IN-COMBAT utility, which allows him to contribute in a wider range of situations, thus bumping him up the extra Tier. Maneuvers grant a lot more potential options than what is presented here.

Warblade does deserve to be Tier 3, although I'll agree that it's a fairly low Tier 3. Swordsage is more deserving of the Tier 3 status.


But in any case... what do you suggest we do to add out-of-combat stuff? Personally, I like either a secondary Int or Cha focus-- the first moving into tactics and know-it-all terrain, and the second starting to eat the Marshal, and improving talky bits.

Aside from culling the Fighter entirely and having different, more flavorful classes eat its aspects? The intelligence component would be a reasonable one: a tactical Fighter would potentially have strategic out-of-combat utility. Otherwise, I'd resolve the issue by making the Fighter abilities less combat-focused, and more "grants additional options" focused, as well as maybe making them a more crucial part of the class.


(Oh, and I would be interested in seeing a bit more in-depth look at why you think his numbers are too big, and what abilities are at fault for that)

Later today, yes. :smallbiggrin:

Amechra
2013-01-04, 01:15 PM
I did make that big wall o' text post about how the Fighter generates really big numbers thanks to Perfect War-Skill.

I kinda was getting at dropping the damage-boosting class features, since the fighter can pretty much do the damage thing (and the hitting thing, and the not-dying-from-things-that-allow-a-save thing... seriously, scaling every feat's bonus to at least +6 is pretty darn hefty.)

As it is, we've got, in terms of out of combat:

1. The ability to get +12 on certain skills, and +6 on others. (Thank you, Perfect War-Skill)

2. I was going to put something here, but I can't really see anything else... well, that's disappointing.

One thing I would suggest is extending Weapon Mastery to Equipment Mastery, and letting it just apply to the bonuses granted by mundane equipment (he suffers no ACP in armor, and gets a big ol' boost to skill checks and attack rolls). It would at least give him the numbers to be competitive with skills he cares about (and would give him tidy bonuses to saves in certain situations.)

toapat
2013-01-04, 01:32 PM
The Warblade has a number of maneuvers with out-of-combat utility though: he can improve his saves, gain scent, jump farther, bolster his allies, overcome hardness, remove status effects, grant extra turns, among others. Additionally, he has more IN-COMBAT utility, which allows him to contribute in a wider range of situations, thus bumping him up the extra Tier. Maneuvers grant a lot more potential options than what is presented here.

Warblade does deserve to be Tier 3, although I'll agree that it's a fairly low Tier 3. Swordsage is more deserving of the Tier 3 status.

Mountain Hammer doesnt count as out of combat utility, as its effective range is lvls 1+2 (IE, when the Innitiators are the most powerful classes by far in the game in combat.) After that, WBL exceeds what is needed for an Adamantine Pick/Axe.

Saves: In combat thing
Scent: You still need survival as a class skill
Extra Turns: Not reliably enough to count.
Iron Heart Surge: Cant Fighter just learn that? he has a pile of feats here.
Party Buffing: Only chargers and trippers, last i knew

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 01:39 PM
Mountain Hammer doesnt count as out of combat utility, as its effective range is lvls 1+2 (IE, when the Innitiators are the most powerful classes by far in the game in combat.) After that, WBL exceeds what is needed for an Adamantine Pick/Axe.

Saves: In combat thing
Scent: You still need survival as a class skill
Extra Turns: Not reliably enough to count.
Iron Heart Surge: Cant Fighter just learn that? he has a pile of feats here.
Party Buffing: Only chargers and trippers, last i knew

Largely correct, yes. However, it's still slightly more than the Fighter gets.

As I said...the Warblade is barely Tier 3, and most of that comes from his greater in-combat utility, which is simply greater than the Fighter's (even this Fighter).

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-04, 01:40 PM
Mountain Hammer doesnt count as out of combat utility, as its effective range is lvls 1+2 (IE, when the Innitiators are the most powerful classes by far in the game in combat.) After that, WBL exceeds what is needed for an Adamantine Pick/Axe.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat this, it does not stop being wrong. There are plenty of ways to make material that resists Adamantine in 3.x. There is nothing that resist Mountain Hammer - oh, and getting better, Mountain Hammer costs no money and always has in-combat utility as well.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-04, 01:48 PM
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat this, it does not stop being wrong. There are plenty of ways to make material that resists Adamantine in 3.x. There is nothing that resist Mountain Hammer - oh, and getting better, Mountain Hammer costs no money and always has in-combat utility as well.

To be fair, Mountain Hammer cannot be presumed to be in every game, as it's from an optional splat that not everyone has or allows, whereas adamantine can be assumed to be in every game, because it's in Core, which presumably everyone has.

Having said that, you're otherwise correct.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-04, 01:51 PM
To be fair, Mountain Hammer cannot be presumed to be in every game, as it's from an optional splat that not everyone has or allows, whereas adamantine can be assumed to be in every game, because it's in Core, which presumably everyone has.

Having said that, you're otherwise correct.

Core material isn't any harder to ban than splat material, and it's not any more correct than splat material either.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 01:59 PM
(Oh, and I would be interested in seeing a bit more in-depth look at why you think his numbers are too big, and what abilities are at fault for that)

Let's take Perfect War Skill. With that, Weapon Focus gives +6. So we take it. Dodge gives +6 AC against an opponent. We take that as well. We'll also take Greater Weapon Focus, because that's another +6, and bonuses to hit have synergy with Power Attack, which we'll take.

That's 5 feats, yes. But it's 5 feats for...

+12 to attack rolls, +6 to damage, and +6 to AC. Worth it? Definitely. I can also effectively dump Dex and Con, since I get a +6 to both by nature of my class alone.

With Power Attack, I can get a +24 damage return from that extra +12, and more with Leap Attack shenanigans. I still have my Combat Style feats to shift my in-combat techniques if I need certain capabilities in the fight itself.

We could also take Crushing Strike with bludgeoning weapons, which grants a +6 to attack rolls per previous hit with a bludgeoning weapon: my ability to hit with iterative attacks now actually goes UP. This costs me 2 more feats, which I have to spare.

Then we have the +5 to attack rolls and damage from Champion of a Thousand Battles, a likely +10 damage from Deadly Strike. Once per level I can add an extra +40 damage to an attack.

I deal Constitution damage with each hit, and I can make people lose their weapon and armor proficiencies, even with natural weapons, meaning that no one can effectively stand against me in combat EVER.

With this extra damage, Death Blow is almost a certainty: I add +21 damage from the listed abilities alone (to approximately every attack, and without power attack), and can add +40 damage to the attack likely to trigger it. That's base damage +61 damage, which basically nothing will ever save against.

My average attack routine, with nothing but the numbers above, a Strength of 26, a +5 weapon, and a Heavy Mace (for the Crushing Blow bonus), looks something like this (assuming the +50 is high enough to hit regularly...if the first hits, the others are likely to):

+50/+51/+52/+53 (1d8 + 38)

So we're averaging over 160 damage per round assuming just basic damage boosters (no power attack involved, among other things), not counting the extra +40 damage I can toss in there. On the third round I can force a save at a DC of over 80, where a failure means death.

Damage Reduction is a joke to this guy (he'll always ignore it), Rapid Repositioning, Whirlwind Defense, and Deflect Arrows basically mean that, with my already boosted AC (+11 from what is listed above), I'll basically be almost impossible to hit: I'm trading >160 damage per round, and likely negating at least half of what my opponents are doing to me. While I can only use Rapid Repositioning OR Whirlwind Defense, this outcome is still likely.

It's a bit absurd.

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-04, 02:11 PM
Core material isn't any harder to ban than splat material, and it's not any more correct than splat material either.

You literally can't play D&D without the PHB, DMG, and MM (or at least their equivalent in the form of the SRD) - by which I mean, that's where all the rules for how things work are. Tome of Battle isn't much use without pages 133-160 of the Player's Handbook (or, again, the equivalent sections of the SRD)

Conversely, you can do just fine without Heroes of Horror or Tome of Battle, or indeed any splatbook. In fact, I defy you to find a game that is splatbook material only. Don't actually bother doing that: you can't, because without the Core rulebooks (or SRD) you don't know how combat works, how treasure and XP are awarded, what the majority of the skills in the game do or how to use them, how spellcasting functions, what ability scores do and how the scale; you don't even know what the phrase "1d6" means.

Like I said, the default assumption should be that every game is going to make use of everything in Core, unless stated otherwise, and that given splatbook X won't be available, again, unless stated otherwise. It's not about whether it's harder or easier to ban, it's whether it's likely to be available to the majority of gaming groups.


With this extra damage, Death Blow is almost a certainty: I add +39 damage from the listed abilities alone (to approximately every attack), and can add +40 damage to the attack likely to trigger it. That's base damage +79 damage, which basically nothing will ever save against.

Hmm, that is a problem.

toapat
2013-01-04, 03:28 PM
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat this, it does not stop being wrong. There are plenty of ways to make material that resists Adamantine in 3.x. There is nothing that resist Mountain Hammer - oh, and getting better, Mountain Hammer costs no money and always has in-combat utility as well.

Except that the rules that govern Material Hardness allow for interpretation of what would realistically effect something. Adamantine Picks are only necessary if the DM decides to throw things like Mantle Shelf or adamantine/obdurium Walls at you, otherwise a standard 8gp Iron heavy pick and 20GP greataxe are needed to bypass every wall in the game, because those are the manual labor tools for breaking apart rock and tree respectively

Which renders the Bypass any Hardness of Mountain Hammer irrelevant so long as the DM is using the Material rules properly. Not RAW as Table or REW.

Flickerdart
2013-01-04, 03:32 PM
Except that the rules that govern Material Hardness allow for interpretation of what would realistically effect something. Adamantine Picks are only necessary if the DM decides to throw things like Mantle Shelf or adamantine/obdurium Walls at you, otherwise a standard 8gp Iron heavy pick and 20GP greataxe are needed to bypass every wall in the game, because those are the manual labor tools for breaking apart rock and tree respectively

Which renders the Bypass any Hardness of Mountain Hammer irrelevant so long as the DM is using the Material rules properly. Not RAW as Table or RAW as paragraph.
We already had an entire thread on this. No matter how many times you repeat this, it doesn't stop being wrong.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-04, 03:32 PM
Except that the rules that govern Material Hardness allow for interpretation of what would realistically effect something. Adamantine Picks are only necessary if the DM decides to throw things like Mantle Shelf or adamantine/obdurium Walls at you, otherwise a standard 8gp Iron heavy pick and 20GP greataxe are needed to bypass every wall in the game, because those are the manual labor tools for breaking apart rock and tree respectively

Which renders the Bypass any Hardness of Mountain Hammer irrelevant so long as the DM is using the Material rules properly. Not RAW as Table or RAW as paragraph.

Quote me the rules text.

Go on.

I'm waiting.

Metool
2013-01-04, 03:37 PM
You literally can't play D&D without the PHB, DMG, and MM (or at least their equivalent in the form of the SRD) - by which I mean, that's where all the rules for how things work are. Tome of Battle isn't much use without pages 133-160 of the Player's Handbook (or, again, the equivalent sections of the SRD)

I'm fairly certain he meant that you can snip bits away for your own game.

Say bards don't exist in your setting. No bards. Simple as that. Sure, there's rangers, wizards, clerics, barbarians, all that. Just no bards.

OR say that a particular spell would break the premise of your game. It's not there for the players to use now.

toapat
2013-01-04, 03:58 PM
Quote me the rules text.

Go on.

I'm waiting.

Rules Compendium, P106, Dealing damage to Objects: Special Considerations:
When Damaging objects, a few special considerations Might apply.

Flickerdart
2013-01-04, 04:03 PM
Rules Compendium, P106, Dealing damage to Objects: Special Considerations:
When Damaging objects, a few special considerations Might apply.
If your entire argument rests on "a few special considerations might apply" then it's not much of an argument. I mean, that's not even a guideline. It's not even a suggestion. It's just "yeah, the DM can make something up if he really wants to" which, guess what, is already rule 0.

toapat
2013-01-04, 04:04 PM
PHB: Page 165: Vulnerability to certain attacks: The DM may rule that certain attacks deal full damage to an object, ignoring hardness.

Examples: Fabric is vulnerable to fire and wood is vulnerable to an Ax


If your entire argument rests on "a few special considerations might apply" then it's not much of an argument. I mean, that's not even a guideline. It's not even a suggestion. It's just "yeah, the DM can make something up if he really wants to" which, guess what, is already rule 0.

the section, paraphrased above, actually is that the double damage is not by fiat, but the ignoring hardness is.

And, the DM has to allow for it, otherwise the PCs can themselves use Rocks Fall, everyone dies because the only way to tunnel is through sledgehammer magic, and Invoke Will E Coyote to kill the king by pointing out his castle should not have been able to be built without specifically requiring that rule be used is fair game otherwise

MagnusExultatio
2013-01-04, 04:07 PM
PHB: Page 165: Vulnerability to certain attacks: The DM may rule that certain attacks deal full damage to an object, ignoring hardness.

While it is relevant, you are not the DM in this example.

toapat
2013-01-04, 04:18 PM
While it is relevant, you are not the DM in this example.

1: Its not a varient
2: Fire vs plant products and Axe vs Lumber is defined as standardly doing that in that.
3: It is permanently part of Sunder, which also includes immunities.
4: The DM fiat is removed entirely as of rules compendium, it has to apply, as according to logic

Flickerdart
2013-01-04, 04:19 PM
And, the DM has to allow for it, otherwise the PCs can themselves use Rocks Fall, everyone dies because the only way to tunnel is through sledgehammer magic, and Invoke Will E Coyote to kill the king by pointing out his castle should not have been able to be built without specifically requiring that rule be used is fair game otherwise
King can just afford to hire wizards to build his castles. He's the king. He can do whatever the hell he wants.

toapat
2013-01-04, 04:31 PM
King can just afford to hire wizards to build his castles. He's the king. He can do whatever the hell he wants.

0: Landlord is given
1: Walls of Stone require, by RAW, to be 3' thick before being allowed to be structural, that is 6 castings per 20 feet of wall. (the last 4 inches are wasted, because of the wording of Wall of Stone, as are 2 feet of wall vertically). This makes 1 Stronghold Unit take 18 castings to build
2: A castle is 20+ Stronghold Units
4: 1 Casting of Wall of Stone costs 1000gp
5: This makes the total cost of a Castle, for a king who does not have the ability to do it himself, have to pay 360,000GP for the walls alone in his castle

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 04:33 PM
And, the DM has to allow for it, otherwise the PCs can themselves use Rocks Fall, everyone dies because the only way to tunnel is through sledgehammer magic, and Invoke Will E Coyote to kill the king by pointing out his castle should not have been able to be built without specifically requiring that rule be used is fair game otherwise

Actually no. Anyone with a strength modifier of +1 or greater and a Heavy Pick can mine through rock, admittedly at a slow (realistic) pace. A 1/8th chance of dealing 1 damage means that it will take (hit points x 8, or 900 x 8) rounds to breach a 10x10 foot section of solid unworked stone: that comes down to 7,200 rounds, or 12 hours exactly.

Go and get yourself a pickaxe. Think you could demolish a 10x10 foot section of solid stone in 12 hours? I think the time frame the game gives us here is roughly accurate, or perhaps even to fast.

Also, someone attempting to go through actual stone in a medieval time would have used picks, wedges, hammers, and a variety of other tools, as neither was individually suited to the task. It's probably better suited to a Profession (Miner) check than to raw damage: trying to smack stone around doesn't work well.

MagnusExultatio
2013-01-04, 04:36 PM
1: Its not a varient
2: Fire vs plant products and Axe vs Lumber is defined as standardly doing that in that.
3: It is permanently part of Sunder, which also includes immunities.
4: The DM fiat is removed entirely as of rules compendium, it has to apply, as according to logic

1) I have never said otherwise.
2) So?
3) So?
4) And Mountain Hammer blows through all Hardness, not "ignores all Hardness except as the DM specifies on whimsy." And you are still not the DM in this situation, thus Mountain Hammer is a big middle finger to Hardness.

toapat
2013-01-04, 04:40 PM
Actually no. Anyone with a strength modifier of +1 or greater and a Heavy Pick can mine through rock, admittedly at a slow (realistic) pace. A 1/8th chance of dealing 1 damage means that it will take (hit points x 8, or 900 x 8) rounds to breach a 10x10 foot section of solid unworked stone: that comes down to 7,200 rounds, or 12 hours exactly.

Go and get yourself a pickaxe. Think you could demolish a 10x10 foot section of solid stone in 12 hours? I think the time frame is roughly accurate.

Cutting out a 10*10*10 cube would be 12 hours, about.

but for a wall of 3 feet? assuming the pick didnt break i could get through in a matter of an hour or two if i had the motivation to do so. You dont work to thoroughly obliterate the wall, you work to make an opening and breaking smaller rocks out of it

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 04:46 PM
Cutting out a 10*10*10 cube would be 12 hours, about.

but for a wall of 3 feet? assuming the pick didnt break i could get through in a matter of an hour or two if i had the motivation to do so. You dont work to thoroughly obliterate the wall, you work to make an opening and breaking smaller rocks out of it

Firstly, the DMG cites such walls as being generally 5ft thick, so you're actually attacking a 10x10x5ft section. But yes...you're destroying that much of it. If you wanted a hole you could travel through (say 2x4 foot opening through the 5ft thick wall) you're trying to damage 8% of the wall, and will thus a reasonable ruling would be that it would only take 8% of the time: slightly under an hour (.96 hours, to be exact). Math works out.

And that's for your average Strength 12 guy. Not your average adventurer, who could probably manage it in a matter of minutes (For the record, a Strength 18 adventurer with a Heavy Pick would destroy the same 2x4x5ft section in 14.4 minutes, if my math works out).

bobthe6th
2013-01-04, 04:52 PM
and this is utterly irrelevant to the fighter fix, ie the purpose of this thread.

could we please take this argument to another thread?

on topic, I can see perfect war skill making for craziness... and have admittedly been ignoring it to a degree. It seems like a good core to build around... how about we change things to build off of feats?

Though I feel the assumption of looking at 20 is bad, as the minority of games play up to it.
How does the class perform in the same game test? how do the numbers look at 5, 10, 15?

Flickerdart
2013-01-04, 04:53 PM
0: Landlord is given
1: Walls of Stone require, by RAW, to be 3' thick before being allowed to be structural, that is 6 castings per 20 feet of wall. (the last 4 inches are wasted, because of the wording of Wall of Stone, as are 2 feet of wall vertically). This makes 1 Stronghold Unit take 18 castings to build
2: A castle is 20+ Stronghold Units
Fabricate hits 200 cubic feet; if the height of the room is 8 feet, say, then it can create 8.3 feet of wall per casting. If one Stronghold Unit is 60 feet long, that gives us 8 castings per unit, total 160 castings, 320 minutes, or just under 6 hours. A medieval castle took from 7 to 20 years to complete.
Or you can just make a Lyre of Building - get a Bard that doesn't have to sleep to play it and you get 2.4 million man-hours in a week's worth of strumming.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 05:02 PM
and this is utterly irrelevant to the fighter fix, ie the purpose of this thread.

could we please take this argument to another thread?

Apologies. I'll let it drop. :smallsmile:


on topic, I can see perfect war skill making for craziness... and have admittedly been ignoring it to a degree. It seems like a good core to build around... how about we change things to build off of feats?

I honestly think the part where it increases the feat's numerical bonus needs to go. There are to many little feats out there that give circumstantial bonuses that stack for such an ability to really be a good idea in practice. I want to like it, but it's really throwing off the balance, and letting it also function as a Dex/Con mod is really just turning this Fighter into a SAD class based on Strength: I think that's actually making the Fighter less interesting as a result, and shoring up a weakness via a slap-dash patch rather than an actual attempt to remedy the problem. You're in effect saying "you don't NEED any other ability scores because we GIVE them to you!," which strikes me as a good example of poor design.


Though I feel the assumption of looking at 20 is bad, as the minority of games play up to it.

But the class should be able to keep a good flow of power up to that point, in theory.


How does the class perform in the same game test? how do the numbers look at 5, 10, 15?

I haven't done all the math yet. I think we're looking good in the lower levels, but the old Fighter was doing fine there as well: our numbers are higher, but they really don't NEED to be. More importantly we achieve relative invincibility in combat the moment I get Deflect Arrows on melee attacks (a level where most opponents will get only a single attack per round, or two at most), and we get all my meaningful abilities before level 15.

So we have a very front-loaded class with odd scaling feat-wise and an effective single-ability dependence. I like many of the parts individually, but I think they add up to trouble.

In short, I don't think the class functions well as presented: it has a bunch of fairly unrelated abilities, no real central theme, and a number of fiddly mechanics (intelligence checks for damage, situations to check for extra damage, rounds to keep track of, percentile chances to avoid attacks, the ability to meet prerequisites without meeting them, strange interaction with the melee/ranged split, free ability scores...). It just feels and look awkward.

Seerow
2013-01-04, 05:18 PM
I actually like Perfect War Skill replacing Dex/Con (or str/con for a dex based fighter). But I agree it modifying the bonuses feats grant is too much. I understand the desire to make the little bs feats worth more, but honestly even jumping them up a few points each makes them too much. Especially ones that apply to d20 rolls like to-hit or saves.

As for the SAD put into place with Perfect War skill, someone else mentioned upthread that an Int based fighter would be better suited to solve a wider variety of challenges. I think maybe some features being regeared towards that would be ideal to fix the problem.

Amechra
2013-01-04, 05:19 PM
Well, this Fighter could dump Strength, and get the +6 anyway.

The idea behind that part was to "soft remove" the weak point of ability damage.

I say we leave it in (I would, I wrote it in the first place), but tone the bonus down to, say, +4 at 20th level (so the +12 to stuff you got 2 feats to boost goes away; +12 for 3 feats sounds a lot better, really.)

I did think of having an ability, probably replacing Scatter Weaklings, that lets you limit when a feat applies (so you could make it so that Weapon Focus only applies to flat-footed creatures), but which boosts the amount that Perfect War-Skill applies to it to be a bit higher (so, for example, at 20th level, Weapon Focus would give you +4 to hit normally, or your could limit it to working on creatures you're flanking to have it give you a +6 to hit.)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-04, 05:31 PM
As for the SAD put into place with Perfect War skill, someone else mentioned upthread that an Int based fighter would be better suited to solve a wider variety of challenges. I think maybe some features being regeared towards that would be ideal to fix the problem.

That doesn't resolve the problem of creating effective dump stats though. My only issue with the ability (or, rather, the ability score related part of it) is that it cares NOTHING for the actual score in question, so the ability score itself doesn't make even a tiny difference.



The idea behind that part was to "soft remove" the weak point of ability damage.

See, this could be easily accomplished by a flat bonus to ability scores: you'd mitigate the issue by buffing the scores, while still being somewhat dependent upon the original ability scores. Alternatively, a sort of "Adrenaline Rush" ability that lets even damaged scores function at an increased capacity: a Fighter's version of Rage, perhaps.

I just object to cutting the base ability requirements entirely: scores should matter somewhere, but, currently, two of your scores don't (at higher levels, anyway). It creates a painful situation as well: spend points in them early, and feel bad about it later when you'd be better off with those points elsewhere, or live through a painful first few levels before benefiting hugely?

Amechra
2013-01-04, 05:42 PM
Maybe have it set up so that your Ability Score Modifiers have a minimum of +0? So that even if your Str/Con/Dex gets down to 1 each, you aren't being too penalized by it?

Rogue Shadows
2013-01-05, 10:41 AM
I'm fairly certain he meant that you can snip bits away for your own game.

Say bards don't exist in your setting. No bards. Simple as that. Sure, there's rangers, wizards, clerics, barbarians, all that. Just no bards.

OR say that a particular spell would break the premise of your game. It's not there for the players to use now.

Yes, but we cannot know, without being told, what is and is not banned in any given game X. So, the default assumption should be that everything in Core is allowed unless we're given a reason to believe otherwise, because you literally can't play D&D unless you have access to Core (that is, even if the bard is banned in a given game, you can at least still be assumed to have looked it over and know what it is), and without being told otherwise there's no reason to assume that any of it is banned.

But, we cannot know, without being told, what splatbooks are and are not available in any given game X, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the majority of games do not have access to the majority of splatbooks (there were, what, something like 70 hardcover books released for D&D 3e? Assuming an average price of about $30-$40 (call it $35), that's something like $2,450 worth of books. I'd never make the assumption that someone seriously spent that much money on D&D. I don't doubt that some people do, I just won't assume that the majority have). So, the default assumption should generally be that none of them are available, unless designing something specifically to interact with something from a splatbook (new maneuvers, new vestiges, etc), because there is no way of knowing which splatbooks in game X are and are not available without being informed on a case-by-case basis.

For example: I've never seen the incanitrix or whatever it's called, because I do not own whatever book it's in, and nor does anyone I know. As a result I'll probably never play one and it'll probably never be relevant in a game I'm running as DM, so something designed to interact with the incanitrix is useless to me and my players unless it can also interact with the things we do have access to - which certainly includes the wizard, the sorcerer, and the bard, because we know we have access to Core because we literally couldn't play D&D otherwise.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-05, 11:15 AM
Maybe have it set up so that your Ability Score Modifiers have a minimum of +0? So that even if your Str/Con/Dex gets down to 1 each, you aren't being too penalized by it?

That would be a more graceful way to accomplish it, yes. It also avoids the horrible decision point of "do I dump Dex and Con to 7-8 and suck for the first dozen levels to eventually net an effective bonus of +14-15 to each score, or do I build competently now and regret it later when those abilities effectively go to waste." :smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2013-01-05, 11:28 AM
Whirlwind Defence is meant to be balanced against carrying around a wand of Wings of Cover (which, remember, this fighter can actually do). It's less effective, but Wings of Cover has a clause that prevents it from being used to spoil an opponent's actions.

But yes, it does become a problem if you can stack a whole pile of other once per round defences alongside it.

As for Deadly Strike, you still can't claim power attack damage if you use it. The entire point of Deadly and Devastating Strike was to make Power Attack a less attractive option.

Amechra
2013-01-05, 06:21 PM
That would be a more graceful way to accomplish it, yes. It also avoids the horrible decision point of "do I dump Dex and Con to 7-8 and suck for the first dozen levels to eventually net an effective bonus of +14-15 to each score, or do I build competently now and regret it later when those abilities effectively go to waste." :smallbiggrin:

Well, you could be dumping Strength and Con. Or Strength and Dex.

After all, once damage is covered, a high strength doesn't do much, whereas Dexterity and Constitution both add to more important things (saves, initiative, HP, and all that fun stuff.)

And I personally don't see problems with a class not needing to work on their ability scores too hard; it saves on WBL, and if you actually care about a given ability score, you're going to be getting a +10 mod by 20th, at least.

I would just have a problem with everyone having the same dump stat.

Because as it is, without that, the Fighter would have to spend half again as much as, for example, a spellcaster, just because he has to care about more ability scores.

And the problem with giving bonuses to ability scores is that the game's math works best when ability score modifiers are between -5 and +5; ability score increases tend to devalue past that point.