The Undertoad (3.5, PEACH)

[Frathe]

Undertoad
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 9d10+27 (76 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, -1 size, +6 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Attack: Tongue +14 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: Tongue +14 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tongue)
Special Attacks: Tongue
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., expert jumper, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +5
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +4 (+10 in stony areas), Jump +20 (+25 running jump)*, Listen +7, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Leap of Heavens (PH2), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (tongue), Weapon Specialization (Tongue)B
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 10-13 HD (Large); 14-27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The undertoad is a deadly subterranean predator that blends into its stony environment and ambushes prey, usually small animals, grabbing them with its long prehensile tongue and consuming them. It is not hostile, but will attack adventurers who disturb it.

A typical undertoad is about 8 ft tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds. It has bumpy, rough-textured skin the ashen gray of pale limestone. It lives in deep subterranean caverns, usually near underground lakes and rivers, and uses its long tongue to capture prey.

Combat

Undertoads are not naturally aggressive and prefer to flee. If cornered or to protect its territory, an undertoad will use its tongue to attack and grapple opponents.

An undertoad will often attempt to Jump over a target. The DC is 4 times the height of the target. If the undertoad succeeds, the target may make an attack of opportunity on the undertoad. If it fails, the undertoad crashes into the target causing 5d6 points of damage to the target and causing 1d6 points of falling damage to the undertoad. Undertoads do not deliberately attempt to crash into targets.

Expert Jumper (Ex): While the undertoad is a quadruped, it uses its powerful hind legs for Jump checks and is not treated a size smaller on Jump checks.

Tongue (Ex): After hitting with a successful attack, an undertoad's tongue can be used to grapple an opponent up to 20 feet away. This grapple incurs an attack of opportunity. A grappled opponent must make a successful DC 18 Fortitude save or take 2d6+4 points of damage from the undertoad's tongue every round that it is grappled. A successful save negates the damage. The save is Strength-based. Withdrawing the tongue is an immediate action.

Skills: Undertoads have a +6 racial bonus on Hide checks in stony areas and a +12 racial bonus to Jump check. An undertoad can always take 10 on Jump checks even when rushed or threatened.

[Vaynor]

You say Hop is instead of regular movement, but is similar to a 5-foot step. Is it a move action or does it literally replace the 5-foot step? If so, you might want to simplify it and just say that when taking a 5-foot step, the toad hops and may move 10 feet (and still does not provoke attacks of opportunity as normal).

[Frathe]

You say Hop is instead of regular movement, but is similar to a 5-foot step. Is it a move action or does it literally replace the 5-foot step? If so, you might want to simplify it and just say that when taking a 5-foot step, the toad hops and may move 10 feet (and still does not provoke attacks of opportunity as normal).

It was a move action, but I like your idea more. I think I'll do that.

[Vaynor]

That will also make it a bit more menacing especially with its reach.

[Debihuman]

Cute. I like it. The stat block needs a little work though. I think you have greatly over estimated the CR for this creature. I'd peg it a no more than 4. If you incorporate the changes I suggest, the CR would be around 5.

Movement: Jump does not belong here since it is a skill. How it moves belongs in the creature's description. You can say it hops slowly and methodically.

Movement: 20 ft. (4 squares)

Since it moves like a standard toad (let's say it hops rather than walks), its base movement would be 20 feet.

Jump is a skill. I think these should have a racial bonus to their Jump checks. Because it is slow for its size this is even more important because Jump checks are modified by speed. It takes a -6 penalty to Jump checks just because it has a speed of 20 feet. More on this later though.

Attack line doesn't need to say weapon finesse since that is understood.

It's melee attack is BAB + size + Str Dex and +1 for Weapon Focus. Your text indicates that the creature only possesses one tongue but your stat block lists two. Which is correct? A creature cannot make 2 attacks with its natural weapon normally so I think you need to correct the stat block. I would recommend giving it only one tongue . However, since that would make it the creature's only attack the damage bonus would increase to 1 and 1/2 Str modifier.

You remembered Weapon Finesse but forgot Weapon Focus. You do not state feat names in the state blocks in the Attacks but apply them (except for things like Power Attack). Since you are a feat short, I recommend you add Weapon Specialization (Tongue) and add +2 to damage as well.

Attack: Tongue + 13 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: Tongue +13 melee (2d6+8)

OR if you actually meant to give it 2 tongues, it doesn't gain the bonus to damage from having a single attack.

Attack: Tongue + 13 melee (2d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 5ongue +13 melee (2d6+6)

I'm not sure which way you wanted to go with this.

The above attack lines now incorporate Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Tongue) and Weapon Specialization (Tongue)

Your creature is missing a feat. It should have 4 feats (It gets a feat for 1, 3, 6 and 9 HD). As I mentioned earlier, it is missing a feat and Weapon Specialization (Tongue) works beautifully for this creature.

Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Tongue), Weapon Specialization (Tongue)

Next we'll tackle the undertoad's Special Abilities.

I'm leaving Hop alone since I'm not sure if you want 2 tongue attacks or not. In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.

With only 1 attack, the Undertoad would never have to take a 5-foot step since it could move 20 feet and attack. If you give it 2 tongues, then the Hop ability makes more sense since that replaces the 5-foot step with a 10-foot step.

You might want to give it something to help with its Jump skill, I recommend that it can cast jump on itself 3 times a day. Caster Level same as HD. This would give the undertoad a +30 enhancement (see jump spell) to Jump checks. You'll also note this under skills in Combat section.

Spell-like Ability (Sp): Three times a day as Standard Action, an undertoad may cast jump as the spell on itself, giving it a +30 enhancement to its Jump checks. CL 9.

Special abilities really need to have some game mechanics or they aren't really special abilities but description. Since you list Tongue as a Special Attack, I recommend you allow it cause damage when it grapples an opponent. It would use 1/2 Str modifier in the attack with +2 bonus from weapon specialization.

Tongue (Ex): An undertoad's tongue can be used to grapple an opponent up to 20 feet away. This attack incurs an attack of opportunity A grappled opponent must make a DC 18 Fortitude save or take 2d6+4 points of damage from the undertoad's tongue every round that it is grappled. A successful save negates the damage. The save is Strength-based.

Because it has Int 1, the undertoad has 12 skill points to use. That gives it 3 ranks in 4 skills. Alertness gives it +2 to Spot and Listen. It should have Hide, Jump, Listen and Spot as its skills. You have forgotten modifiers such as Large creatures have a -4 penalty to Hide which offsets its Dex modifier. Jump is Str based but has a -6 speed penalty. I highly recommend that you give the undertoad a +4 racial bonus to Jump so that instead of +1, it has a +5 to Jump.

Here is how its skills should look in stat block and in combat section. Note that I've taken into account how Jump works if you give it the Spell-like ability.

Skills: Hide +4 (+10 in stony areas), Jump +5* Listen +7 Spot+7

Skills: Undertoads have a +6 racial bonus on Hide checks in stony areas and a +4 racial bonus to Jump check. The Jump check increases to +35 when it uses its spell-like jump ability.

I hope this helps.

Debby

[Frathe]

I hope this helps.

Debby

It does help, greatly! Thank you very much for looking this over. I made pretty much all of the changes you suggested. I apologize for the many errors; this was actually one of my first homebrews, made many months (years?) ago, and I really didn't know what I was doing. I probably should've looked the stat block over better before posting, but I foolishly trusted my past self. :smallfrown:

Besides, I still don't know much: for example, I had two tongues because I thought that meant two attacks in a single turn with its one tongue. :smallredface:

[Debihuman]

No need to apologize at all. You just made the usual rookie errors :-). I made them too. We've all been there. There are so many rules that it is hard to keep them straight. And trust me, the more complex the critter, the more likely it is to have errors.

It's just time consuming to go through line-by-line.

This is the main reason I HATE the new stat blocks (like in MM3 and Pathfinder), it makes it just too hard to critique.

Debby

[Frathe]

Spell-like Ability (Sp): Three times a day as Standard Action, an undertoad may cast jump as the spell on itself, giving it a +30 enhancement to its Jump checks. CL 9. [/spoiler]


A quick question: I'm not sure if jump should be a spell-like ability. Does it make sense if it can only jump three times a day, and it can't jump in (for example) anti-magic fields? Maybe it should recharge like dragon breath weapons, and be an extraordinary ability (so the toad is jumping with the sheer power of its leg muscles; no magic is involved, so it can't be dispelled).

I also didn't quite understand why a Strength check negate the tongue's grappling damage.

[Debihuman]

A quick question: I'm not sure if jump should be a spell-like ability. Does it make sense if it can only jump three times a day, and it can't jump in (for example) anti-magic fields? Maybe it should recharge like dragon breath weapons, and be an extraordinary ability (so the toad is jumping with the sheer power of its leg muscles; no magic is involved, so it can't be dispelled).

I also didn't quite understand why a Strength check negate the tongue's grappling damage.

There is a spell called jump which is why it is a spell-like ability. That's why I specifically said to see the spell. It is in the SRD and in PHB. Jump the skill is always Capitalized and spells are always italicized (because otherwise they could refer to any other use of the word).

Debby

[Frathe]

There is a spell called jump which is why it is a spell-like ability. That's why I specifically said to see the spell. It is in the SRD and in PHB. Jump the skill is always Capitalized and spells are always italicized (because otherwise they could refer to any other use of the word).

Debby

Oops. I know the difference between the skill and the spell, and I knew you were using it as a spell; I just associated times that the undertoad would actually jump very closely with the period right after it had used the spell jump, so much so that I spoke of using the skill Jump three times a day because there'd be three times in a day when, after casting jump, it would be worth it for them to make a Jump check.

There is a basis for citing spells to describe extraordinary abilities. For example:



Spider Climb (Ex)
A copper dragon can climb on stone surfaces as though using the spider climb spell.

[Debihuman]

A quick question: I'm not sure if jump should be a spell-like ability. Does it make sense if it can only jump three times a day, and it can't jump in (for example) anti-magic fields? Maybe it should recharge like dragon breath weapons, and be an extraordinary ability (so the toad is jumping with the sheer power of its leg muscles; no magic is involved, so it can't be dispelled).

I also didn't quite understand why a Strength check negate the tongue's grappling damage.


A special ability that works like a spell is Spell-like rather than Extraordinary or Supernatural. Since you have to work within the framework of appropriate CR, antimagic field can't be cast by any of the PCs so it wouldn't be an issue. This is why CR matters. The undertoad may be caster level 9, but its CR is much lower.

Furthermore, jump is a first level spell. Odds of it being used more than once are slim but giving it as an At Will ability is too much. Please read the jump spell before you do anything else because it strikes me that you are misunderstanding what it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/jump.htm)

The toad casts jumps spell and gets a +30 enhancement to its Jump skill. It can then use the skill as often as it wants but it only gets the additional bonus 3 times a day. The spell lasts for 9 minutes at CL 9 it's not just a one time thing. 3 times a day for 9 minutes at a time, it can use its Jump skill at +35 instead of +5. Does it really ever need more than that?

Tongue is an Extraordinary ability (it doesn't have a magical or supernatural source). It isn't a Strength check that negates the damage. What happens when you succeed on the Fortitude save? You either negate the damage or halve it. Since we are dealing with CR 4-6 depending on which abilities you give it, negating the damage is far more reasonable than halving it.

Saves are always based on an ability. DC is 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + ability modifier. To get DC 18, it is strength-based. 10 +4 +4. If it were a Supernatural ability it would be based on the undertoad's charisma.

You should always mention those things explicitly.

Debby

[Frathe]

A special ability that works like a spell is Spell-like rather than Extraordinary or Supernatural. Since you have to work within the framework of appropriate CR, antimagic field can't be cast by any of the PCs so it wouldn't be an issue. This is why CR matters. The undertoad may be caster level 9, but its CR is much lower.


You're right; an anti-magic field would never be a problem. I was just using it to illustrate that I thought a magic-based ability didn't make sense (although I was probably wrong about that).



Furthermore, jump is a first level spell. Odds of it being used more than once are slim but giving it as an At Will ability is too much. Please read the jump spell before you do anything else because it strikes me that you are misunderstanding what it does (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/jump.htm)

The toad casts jumps spell and gets a +30 enhancement to its Jump skill. It can then use the skill as often as it wants but it only gets the additional bonus 3 times a day. The spell lasts for 9 minutes at CL 9 it's not just a one time thing. 3 times a day for 9 minutes at a time, it can use its Jump skill at +35 instead of +5. Does it really ever need more than that?


No, I had already read the spell. I knew it gave a +30 to Jump at that high caster level. What I didn't read is the duration. You're right; nine minutes three times a day is plenty. However, what I really wanted was an ability where the ability itself was a special improved jump, so that it could jump over PCs. However, if a high enough Jump check lets you jump over enemies in combat (I didn't find anything on that), I'd be fine with using the spell jump, as long as that amazing +30 bonus would let you do that.



Tongue is an Extraordinary ability (it doesn't have a magical or supernatural source). It isn't a Strength check that negates the damage. What happens when you succeed on the Fortitude save? You either negate the damage or halve it. Since we are dealing with CR 4-6 depending on which abilities you give it, negating the damage is far more reasonable than halving it.

Saves are always based on an ability. DC is 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + ability modifier. To get DC 18, it is strength-based. 10 +4 +4. If it were a Supernatural ability it would be based on the undertoad's charisma.

You should always mention those things explicitly.

Debby

Got it; as I said, I'm still learning how these things work.

I apologize for my repeated misunderstandings of your words. I'm pretty clueless about monster rules in general (I've never Dm'd), so me getting the correct interpretation is pretty hit-and-miss.

[Debihuman]

Okay, now I get what's missing. Under skills section you should add this:
Undertoads do not need a running start to make vertical jumps.

The DC of a high jump is 4 times the height (doubled if you don't have a 20-foot running start so stating that the undertoad doesn't need a running start to make high jumps makes good sense).

Let's say the undertoad wants to jump 7 feet. The DC is 28. Obviously with Jump +5 (unless there are mitigating factors), it isn't normally going to succeed unless it rolls a natural 20.

However, with its nifty spell-like ability, it has Jump +35. Unless it rolls a 1 on its Jump check, it will succeed in jumping over a PC's head (with clearance even). However, it exposes the creature's underbelly so it should provoke an attack of opportunity.

Does this clarify things?

Debby

P.S. Apparently I cannot add either. The undertoad's melee attack is BAB +9, Dex +5, Size -1, Weapon Focus +1 for a total of melee + 14 not +13.

[Frathe]

Okay, now I get what's missing. Under skills section you should add this:
Undertoads do not need a running start to make vertical jumps.

The DC of a high jump is 4 times the height (doubled if you don't have a 20-foot running start so stating that the undertoad doesn't need a running start to make high jumps makes good sense).

Let's say the undertoad wants to jump 7 feet. The DC is 28. Obviously with Jump +5 (unless there are mitigating factors), it isn't normally going to succeed unless it rolls a natural 20.

However, with its nifty spell-like ability, it has Jump +35. Unless it rolls a 1 on its Jump check, it will succeed in jumping over a PC's head (with clearance even). However, it exposes the creature's underbelly so it should provoke an attack of opportunity.

Does this clarify things?

Debby

Yes, yes it does. That's what I wanted. Thank you for explaining it to me.

Because they'd often have to jump horizontally too, I think I might just eliminate running starts for all jumps. It seems appropriately toadlike to me. For example, I think if they jumped 30 ft forward and over an enemy, that would be a long jump of DC 30, and they would clear 7.5 vertical feet, about the same as in your high jump example.

[Debihuman]

Yes, yes it does. That's what I wanted. Thank you for explaining it to me.

Because they'd often have to jump horizontally too, I think I might just eliminate running starts for all jumps. It seems appropriately toadlike to me. For example, I think if they jumped 30 ft forward and over an enemy, that would be a long jump of DC 30, and they would clear 7.5 vertical feet, about the same as in your high jump example.

I agree. The undertoad has to be at least 15 feet from the PC in order to properly clear the PC's head. Of course, launching itself too close might mean it crashes into the PC instead of clearing it. Because the undertoad weighs so much, the PC takes 5d6 points of damage if that happens. Being hit by a 1,000 lbs. of undertoad is going to hurt!
For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Since the undertoad's jump is stopped by crashing into someone, it should probably take a little damage too, but it only takes normal falling damage or 1d6 points of damage since it doesn't reach 10 feet of height. Note: this is not a tactic that undertoads would use because of their low intelligence. If you had smarter undertoads, then it might be a viable tactic.

Also I messed up the attack lines. Melee should be +14 not +13 because I cannot add. 9+5-1+1=14.

Debby

[kinem]

Why not just give it a large racial bonus to Jump?

[Debihuman]

Jump +5 already includes a +4 racial bonus. The undertoad is a phonemically lousy jumper because of its slow speed.

In order to offset that (because undertoads should be great jumpers at least some of time), it gets the jump spell as a spell-like ability.

This is part of designing a creature that works within the rules and sets the right CR. Giving it a racial bonus of +30 isn't fair to the PCs. It's going to get pretty far if can jump 30 feet for 27 minutes but not as far as if it could jump that way all day long.

It's suppose to challenge the PCs not bound away from them. In this case, time is the limiting duration for the undertoad. This prevents a long, drawn out, and potentially boring chase from occurring. A half hour chase can be fun and exciting. An all day chase stops being fun for everyone. It has no treasure so what incentive do you have to entice the party to chase it until they catch it?

When you are designing a monster (or any adversary) you should always think in terms of: Is this going to make a fun encounter and what is the pay off. For example, the most dangerous adversaries usually have money and magic items as rewards.

This undertoad has nothing. All the PCs are going to get is experience. So making them jump through hoops (pun intentional) to defeat it, won't be nearly as satisfying.

A typical encounter is no more than half a dozen rounds and uses about a quarter of the party's resources. Since the undertoad has no treasure, the party doesn't stand to gain from spending resources to track it down.

What it can do is pique their interest. There aren't many expert jumpers as adversaries and this nicely fills a niche that is often overlooked. Plus it has the bonus in that it doesn't swallow PCs. There plenty of creatures that do that.

Here is the last thing that needs to be added to the Jump skill section:
While the undertoad is a quadruped, it uses its powerful hind legs for Jump checks and is not treated a size smaller on Jump checks.

I'd forgotten how many factors go into a Jump check.

I think the undertoad need one more special ability for its HD. We've already discussed in the skills section but that's not really where that information belongs.

Expert Jumper (Ex): An undertoad does not need a running start to make any jumps. While the undertoad is a quadruped, it uses its powerful hind legs for Jump checks and is not treated a size smaller on Jump checks.

Skills: Undertoads have a +6 racial bonus on Hide checks in stony areas and a +4 racial bonus to Jump check. The Jump check bonus increases to +35 when it uses its spell-like jump ability.

The Special Quality line would be revised thus:
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft, expert jumper, low-light vision

I think that's as much spit and polish as I can put on it.

[Frathe]

This is part of designing a creature that works within the rules and sets the right CR. Giving it a racial bonus of +30 isn't fair to the PCs. It's going to get pretty far if can jump 30 feet for 27 minutes but not as far as if it could jump that way all day long.

It's suppose to challenge the PCs not bound away from them. In this case, time is the limiting duration for the undertoad. This prevents a long, drawn out, and potentially boring chase from occurring. A half hour chase can be fun and exciting. An all day chase stops being fun for everyone. It has no treasure so what incentive do you have to entice the party to chase it until they catch it?



Ah. That explains the time limit to me. I didn't think about it running (well, jumping) away.




What it can do is pique their interest. There aren't many expert jumpers as adversaries and this nicely fills a niche that is often overlooked. Plus it has the bonus in that it doesn't swallow PCs. There plenty of creatures that do that.


Yes, I hoped the jumping would make it an interesting adversary. An earlier version actually did swallow people after grappling them with its tongue, but I took it out as ill-advised for a mid-CR vertebrate of only Large size. I mean, if you cut your way out of its stomach, that's going to do a lot of damage.




I think that's as much spit and polish as I can put on it.

And thank you very much for it!

UPDATE: Mild confusion; I used Vorpal Tribble's method for calculating CR given in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313), and I got about 8 again (either 8.4 or 7.7); I'm not sure what "bonus feats" means for monsters.

[Debihuman]

Bonus feat are extra feats that monsters sometimes have that they don't qualify for.

Here it is:

Vorpal Tribble’s CR estimator

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

This has 9 HD and 76 hp. 76 divided by 5 = 15.5 and round down so 15

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

AC 20 = 2

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

It has 1 special attack

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

It has 4 special qualities

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

It has 0 bonus feats.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.

15 +2 +1 +4 = 22/3 = 7.3 and you round down so It's CR is roughly 7.

Technically a really weak 7 since 2 of its special abilities are darkvision and low-light vision.


Debby

[kinem]

It's suppose to challenge the PCs not bound away from them. In this case, time is the limiting duration for the undertoad. This prevents a long, drawn out, and potentially boring chase from occurring. A half hour chase can be fun and exciting. An all day chase stops being fun for everyone. It has no treasure so what incentive do you have to entice the party to chase it until they catch it?

No party is going to chase it for half an hour. There's no difference between that and all day. The party doesn't need to be enticed to chase it, nor will they have any way of knowing how long it can keep the jumps up for. They will let it go if it gets far ahead. It's not aggressive or evil; 99% of the time they will not attack it and it will not attack them in the first place.

The only payoff from this monster is that it's dungeon dressing. It's part of the ecosystem, and lets people say "Look, there are giant toads here."

I don't see it as a monster that should rely on magic. It should be able to jump well because it's a giant toad with powerful legs, not because of magic.

[Frathe]

No party is going to chase it for half an hour. There's no difference between that and all day. The party doesn't need to be enticed to chase it, nor will they have any way of knowing how long it can keep the jumps up for. They will let it go if it gets far ahead. It's not aggressive or evil; 99% of the time they will not attack it and it will not attack them in the first place.


You're right, that'd be a 300 round encounter. Everyone would give up long before that.



The only payoff from this monster is that it's dungeon dressing. It's part of the ecosystem, and lets people say "Look, there are giant toads here."

I don't see it as a monster that should rely on magic. It should be able to jump well because it's a giant toad with powerful legs, not because of magic.

No, that makes sense. That's what I was trying to say earlier with bringing up antimagic fields. It should be an extraordinary ability; you shouldn't be able to dispel its jumping ability anymore than you can a spider's climbing ability. I don't care if you'd actually have access to dispel magic at the level you'd encounter it at; you just shouldn't be able to at all.

[Debihuman]

No party is going to chase it for half an hour. There's no difference between that and all day.

Well, it wouldn't be chase that I'd have to make everyone roll every round. That would be excruciating. There are much better ways to handle chases (and the environment could play a key part).


The party doesn't need to be enticed to chase it, nor will they have any way of knowing how long it can keep the jumps up for

They don't have to be enticed to chase, but they could be. How you want to design an encounter with one of these is entirely up to you. You mean to tell me you can't think of even one reason why a party might want to chase an undertoad through dungeon or caves?

A Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Knowledge (Arcana) DC 19 check can fix that. At CR 7, that's not as difficult to achieve as you might think.


They will let it go if it gets far ahead. It's not aggressive or evil; 99% of the time they will not attack it and it will not attack them in the first place. The only payoff from this monster is that it's dungeon dressing. It's part of the ecosystem, and lets people say "Look, there are giant toads here." Never underestimate a good MacGuffin. Or just have it abscond with an important widget stuck to one of its warts. There are a ton of ways to keep from becoming just a dull giant toad.


I don't see it as a monster that should rely on magic. It should be able to jump well because it's a giant toad with powerful legs, not because of magic. Then make your vision of it. If it were smaller, more dextrous, and faster, then it wouldn't need the magical boost in the first place.

If all you are complaining about is whether the ability to jump as the spell should be Spell-like or Extraordinary, then that's hardly worth debating. Change it to suit your needs. If your only concern because of an anti-magic field (which can't even be cast until 11th level) then that says more about your abilities as DM than it does about the design of the undertoad.

OMG, there's anti-magic field and now the undertoad can't jump more than 4 feet in the air! Never mind that it's just as surprised at that fact when it launches itself into your chest by mistake instead of going over your head as expected. Because that is exactly how that encounter would play out if I were running this undertoad in an antimagic field, which would happen exactly ONCE. Sheesh. What kind of D&D games are you people running?


Debby

[Frathe]

I'm going to try something in between the two prior suggestions: an eternal jump-like extraordinary ability. That way, the racial bonus isn't too absurdly, physics-breakingly high; instead, the main physics-breaking part is accomplished by an extraordinary ability. Extraordinary abilities routinely break physics, so the toad doesn't need to be more dextrous or smaller to make amazing jumps, but the ability isn't actually technically magical and can't be dispelled or negated the same way spells can. A comparable example is the constant spider climb that copper dragons receive.

Honestly, +30 is so much that I should maybe just remove the +2 racial Jump bonus.

[Debihuman]

Now you see the quandary you are in with this creature. Giving it a natural racial bonus of +30 is excessive. However, giving it a +12 racial is still a bit on the high side.

I recommend a +8 racial bonus to Jump (injunction with other changes)

In order to Jump 7 feet,(DC 28) with nearly guaranteed success (failing only on a natural one), the racial bonus would have be +27.

If you are serious that you just want a good jumper, then here's what needs to be done. First, increase its speed to 30 feet. This removes the -6 speed penalty to Jump check. If you really want to to improve its Jump skill, a speed of 40 feet gives it +4 bonus to Jump.

Second change and rearrange its skills. Put 6 ranks into Jump and 3 into Hide and 3 into Tumble

6 skill ranks into Jump, +5 Dex, +4 speed bonus, +8 racial, +2 from Acrobatic feat for a grand total of: 25.
Hide 3 ranks + 5 Dex, -4 size penalty for a total +4 (+10 in stony places)
Tumble 3 ranks, +5 Dex +2 Acrobatic feat for at +10 total.

I'm also adding a Combat section.

Here is how it would look:

Undertoad, Jumping
Hit Dice: 9d10+27 (76 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 40 ft. (20 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, -1 size, +6 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Attack: Tongue +14 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: Tongue +14 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tongue)
Special Attacks: Tongue
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., expert jumper, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +2
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +4 (+10 in stony places), Jump +25, Tumble +10
Feats: Acrobatic, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (tongue), Weapon Specialization (Tongue)
Environment: Underground
Organization:Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 10-13 HD (Large); 14-27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The undertoad is a deadly subterranean predator that blends into its stony environment and ambushes prey, usually small animals, grabbing them with its long prehensile tongue and consuming them. It is not hostile, but will attack adventurers who disturb it.

A typical undertoad is about 8 ft tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds. It has bumpy, rough-textured skin the ashen gray of pale limestone. It lives in deep subterranean caverns, usually near underground lakes and rivers, and uses its long tongue to capture prey.

Combat

Undertoads are not naturally aggressive and prefer to flee. If cornered or to protect its territory, an undertoad will use its tongue to attack and grapple opponents.

An undertoad will often attempt to Jump over a target.The DC is 4 times the height of the target. If the undertoad succeeds, the target may make an attack of opportunity on the undertoad. If it fails, the undertoad crashes into the target causing 5d6 points of damage to the target. If the undertoad succeeds on a DC 15 Tumble check, the undertoad takes no damage from the crash. If it fails, the undertoad takes 1d6 points of falling damage in the process. Undertoads do not deliberately attempt to crash into targets.

Expert Jumper (Ex): An undertoad does not need a running start to make any jumps. While the undertoad is a quadruped, it uses its powerful hind legs for Jump checks and is not treated a size smaller on Jump checks.

Tongue (Ex): After hitting with a successful attack, an undertoad's tongue can be used to grapple an opponent up to 20 feet away. This grapple incurs an attack of opportunity. A grappled opponent must make a successful DC 18 Fortitude save or take 2d6+4 points of damage from the undertoad's tongue every round that it is grappled. A successful save negates the damage. The save is Strength-based.

Skills: Undertoads have a +6 racial bonus on Hide checks in stony areas and a +8 racial bonus to Jump check.

[kinem]

I don't think it should have such a fast normal speed. Under Expert Jumper, just let its 20' speed count as 40' for Jump modifiers.

Happy new year!

[Debihuman]

Speed affects Jump checks. A 20 foot speed is a -6 penalty to Jump while a 40 foot speed is a +4 bonus.

I could make it a 20 foot speed but then the Jump bonus would be +15 instead of +25.

Since the DC of a 7 foot jump is 28, the undertoad would miss more than 50% of its jumps. It has to roll 13 or better on a DC 28 Jump check with Jump +15 rather than rolling a 3 or better with Jump +25.

With a speed of 30 feet it takes no penalty and no bonus to speed. It's Jump would be +21. That makes better sense actually. It would succeed at more than 50% of its Jump checks since it would have to roll 7 or better. It's still going to fail about 28% of the time.

Pick your poison with this one.


Debby

[kinem]

I could make it a 20 foot speed but then the Jump bonus would be +15 instead of +25.

Not if you let its 20' speed count as 40' for Jump modifiers like I suggested.

[Frathe]

I would prefer to keep a slow speed in the 20-ft range, for in-game physical reasons (toads aren't known for their running ability); however, kinem's method of a rules exception seems a tad messy. Maybe a 30-ft speed would be acceptable though; considering that it's moving at that same speed as a human, but is a size category larger, that's not especially fast. Working with that, here's an idea: analogous to creatures that move by swimming and climbing, the undertoad is so naturally skilled at jumping that it can always choose to take 10 on a Jump check, even if rushed or threatened. Shifting the skill points around, with a racial bonus of +12, we get:

4 skill points + 4 Str + 12 racial bonus = +20

With the ability to always take a 10, and a +20 bonus, it could reliably make DC 30 jump checks.

The new skills would be:
Hide +4 (+10 in stony areas), Jump +20*, Listen +7

How does that seem?

[Debihuman]

I would prefer to keep a slow speed in the 20-ft range, for in-game physical reasons (toads aren't known for their running ability); however, kinem's method of a rules exception seems a tad messy. Maybe a 30-ft speed would be acceptable though; considering that it's moving at that same speed as a human, but is a size category larger, that's not especially fast. Working with that, here's an idea: analogous to creatures that move by swimming and climbing, the undertoad is so naturally skilled at jumping that it can always choose to take 10 on a Jump check, even if rushed or threatened. Shifting the skill points around, with a racial bonus of +12, we get:

4 skill points + 4 Str + 12 racial bonus = +20

With the ability to always take a 10, and a +20 bonus, it could reliably make DC 30 jump checks.

The new skills would be:
Hide +4 (+10 in stony areas), Jump +20*, Listen +7

How does that seem?

It's a cleaner mechanic. There's never just one way to do things to get what you want but some ways are better than others. I like the idea that the undertoad can Take 10 on Jump checks even when threatened or rushed.

Debby

[rweird]

It can't have weapon specialization, it doesn't have four fighter levels, maybe the feat Leap of the Heavens (PHB II), so it can jump without penalty without a running start, and a further +5 bonus with.

[Frathe]

It can't have weapon specialization, it doesn't have four fighter levels, maybe the feat Leap of the Heavens (PHB II), so it can jump without penalty without a running start, and a further +5 bonus with.

Oh, I think you're right; I guess Debihuman missed that when she suggested it.

I didn't know about that feat, but it sounds like a good idea. I'll swap it out. Anyone have any objections to that, or any suggestion for alternate feats that would help with the jumping?

[Debihuman]

It can't have weapon specialization, it doesn't have four fighter levels, maybe the feat Leap of the Heavens (PHB II), so it can jump without penalty without a running start, and a further +5 bonus with.

You're absolutely right. However, monsters can have feats that they don't qualify for as bonus feats. I think giving the undertoad Weapon Specialization (Tongue) as a bonus feat makes perfect sense as it only has one attack. It can then take Leap of Heavens as its normal feat since it does qualify for that. Note that the +5 bonus to jump is only for running jumps. Monsters can have more feats than normal as long as those feats are bonus feats.

There is no limit in the rules on how many bonus feats a monster can have. Nevertheless, I've said that for good design, a monster should have no more than 2 bonus feats that don't come from a class or template, or it needs another hit die. It's all an issue of balance. I don't think the extra feat puts in CR 8 yet.

This is the corrected stat block now. The extra feat still doesn't put it in CR 8 category.

Undertoad
Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 9d10+27 (76 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+5 Dex, -1 size, +6 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Attack: Tongue +14 melee (2d6+8)
Full Attack: Tongue +14 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tongue)
Special Attacks: Tongue
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., expert jumper, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +5
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +4 (+10 in stony areas), Jump +20 (+25 running jump)*, Listen +7, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Leap of Heavens (PH2), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (tongue), Weapon Specialization (Tongue)B
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 10-13 HD (Large); 14-27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The undertoad is a deadly subterranean predator that blends into its stony environment and ambushes prey, usually small animals, grabbing them with its long prehensile tongue and consuming them. It is not hostile, but will attack adventurers who disturb it.

A typical undertoad is about 8 ft tall and weighs about 1,000 pounds. It has bumpy, rough-textured skin the ashen gray of pale limestone. It lives in deep subterranean caverns, usually near underground lakes and rivers, and uses its long tongue to capture prey.

Combat

Undertoads are not naturally aggressive and prefer to flee. If cornered or to protect its territory, an undertoad will use its tongue to attack and grapple opponents.

An undertoad will often attempt to Jump over a target.The DC is 4 times the height of the target. If the undertoad succeeds, the target may make an attack of opportunity on the undertoad. If it fails, the undertoad crashes into the target causing 5d6 points of damage to the target and causing 1d6 points of falling damage to the undertoad. Undertoads do not deliberately attempt to crash into targets.

Expert Jumper (Ex): While the undertoad is a quadruped, it uses its powerful hind legs for Jump checks and is not treated a size smaller on Jump checks.

Tongue (Ex): After hitting with a successful attack, an undertoad's tongue can be used to grapple an opponent up to 20 feet away. This grapple incurs an attack of opportunity. A grappled opponent must make a successful DC 18 Fortitude save or take 2d6+4 points of damage from the undertoad's tongue every round that it is grappled. A successful save negates the damage. The save is Strength-based.

Skills: Undertoads have a +6 racial bonus on Hide checks in stony areas and a +12 racial bonus to Jump check. An undertoad can always Take 10 on Jump checks even when rushed or threatened.

Debby

[Frathe]

Looks good! One minor thing--doesn't it only have 12 skill points? I think you have 3 in Hide, 4 in Jump, 3 in Listen and 3 in Spot. That's 13. If I'm right and that is a mistake, it's not a big deal; I'll just take a point out of Spot.

[Debihuman]

Looks good! One minor thing--doesn't it only have 12 skill points? I think you have 3 in Hide, 4 in Jump, 3 in Listen and 3 in Spot. That's 13. If I'm right and that is a mistake, it's not a big deal; I'll just take a point out of Spot.

Yep, I think I did it to the Hide skill, but it makes more sense to take from Spot.
[Edit] Fixed the stat block above to account for too many skill points. Spot has one less now.

Debby

[rweird]

Your right about bonus feats, looks good now.

[Frathe]

Cool! I've updated the original post to reflect all changes (in other words, I copied Debihuman's post after the skill points for Spot were corrected). It should be good now.

[kinem]

Will should be +5.

Also, it would probably be better to use grapple checks rather than a Fort save for the tongue.

Also, I have a hard time seeing players not try to make called shots on the grappling tongue, mechanics or no. It might be better for the tongue to trip instead of grapple.

[Frathe]

Will should be +5.

Also, it would probably be better to use grapple checks rather than a Fort save for the tongue.

Also, I have a hard time seeing players not try to make called shots on the grappling tongue, mechanics or no. It might be better for the tongue to trip instead of grapple.

Wisdom is 14. Why should Will be +5; am I missing something?

Yeah, I had that worry about grappling with the tongue before. That's why I changed it to just a regular attack until Debihuman suggested the current form. I'm not sure about tripping, though. It doesn't seem like a giant toad would be smart enough to use that kind of strategy.

The tongue, although long, could be so thin that it would be extremely difficult to hit (around finger width, making it a challenging called shot, -10 penalty); this is low enough CR that it probably wouldn't be worth it.

I would use the grapple mechanic damage negation, but the Fort save is to avoid damage from squeezing and such. That seems pretty reasonable. You could ALSO make an opposed grapple check to escape if you wanted to.

[kinem]

Wisdom is 14. Why should Will be +5; am I missing something?

9 HD.

A long, thin object is very easy to hit. Just turn your sword crosswise, not parallel to the long direction.

[Debihuman]

Will should be +5, mea culpa. Also Fort saves are for damage which is different from breaking away from a grapple. It's not a check at all.

Debby
[edit]I've corrected the above stat block to reflect this.

[Frathe]

I would like to point out that this monster is for 3.5, which called shots are not a part of. If people want to use a 3.5 monster in Pathfinder that the Pathfinder rules mess up, they should figure out a fix themselves.

[Frathe]

If the tongue seems like it would be easy to hit and vulnerable, remember that it would have to be pretty thick and tough to be able to grapple creatures. In addition, there's no reason to think it's staying still; imagine a gyrating ropelike object that's trying to grapple a PC; even if one end is fixed to its source and the other is wrapped around the target, as long as it isn't pulled tight it could still manage a fair amount of movement in the middle to dodge attacks.

[kinem]

That doesn't sound very plausible to me. You should still be able to target it in that situation.

I know the 3.5 rules don't cover that. But if this monster were in a combat scenario in a module at a convention at 10 gaming tables, I expect that at 8 of those tables you would have players insisting on trying to target it.

[Frathe]

I see your point. Even though it's not even in the rules, players are going to try to attack something that seems vulnerable and spans that many squares.

Worry over that problem was actually why I didn't have any sort of grappling ability for the tongue when I first posted this monster. Maybe I should just take the grappling out and have the tongue deal damage by quickly darting out and then back into the toad's mouth. The grappling ability is nice, but I don't know how to resolve this problem.

Maybe a successful grapple following a tongue attack (and on the same turn) could be accompanied by the tongue dragging the victim to the square adjacent to and in front of the toad's mouth, so the tongue isn't left exposed for any time beyond the time it takes to initially attack. That better mimics the actual movement of frog and toad tongues when catching flies: they dart out and then in quickly.

[Debihuman]

That doesn't sound very plausible to me. You should still be able to target it in that situation.

I know the 3.5 rules don't cover that. But if this monster were in a combat scenario in a module at a convention at 10 gaming tables, I expect that at 8 of those tables you would have players insisting on trying to target it.

Then you're not familiar with the original Giant Frog from AD&D from whence creatures like this originated. The tongue attack is fairly standard.

I suppose you are thinking it can be Sundered like a tentacle (there are no called shots in 3.5). An undertoad can withdraw its tongue as a free action making Sunder attacks impossible. Unlike a tentacle, a tongue can withdraw.

Debby

[Frathe]

Then you're not familiar with the original Giant Frog from AD&D from whence creatures like this originated. The tongue attack is fairly standard.

I suppose you are thinking it can be Sundered like a tentacle (there are no called shots in 3.5). An undertoad can withdraw its tongue as a free action making Sunder attacks impossible. Unlike a tentacle, a tongue can withdraw.

Debby

If that's how Giant Frogs worked canonically in past editions, I'll leave the tongue attack as is. I'll add a note to the effect that withdrawing is a free action.

[Frathe]

Links to compare!

AD&D Giant Frog (http://www.dotd.com/mm/MM00102.htm): if it hits with its tongue attack (which deals no damage) and the target fails several attempts to do damage, they are Swallowed Whole. They only have three rounds to roll 18 or better to escape, otherwise they suffocate.

Pathfinder Giant Frog (http://paizo.com/PRD/monsters/frog.html): it has a tongue attack with reach x3; its main weapon is a bite; the tongue can be used to grab but does not deal damage or count as grappling. They have the Swallow Whole special property.