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lunar2
2013-01-02, 05:40 PM
morph's recent post about fighter fixes got me thinking, and now i'm working on yet another fighter fix. for this, i wanted to keep the modularity of the original fighter, the original design goal of being able to create almost any martial combatant from a single base class.

so, the new fighter will have a variable good save, keep most of the original's bonus feats, and the actual class features will be selected along several "tracks", including a track that combines features from other tracks.

The Fighter
HD: D10
Class Skills: Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Swim
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Good Save|Poor Saves|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|Tradition (saves)

2nd|+2|+3|+0|Bonus Feat

3rd|+3|+3|+1|

4th|+4|+4|+1|Bonus Feat

5th|+5|+4|+1|Tradition (1st)

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|Bonus Feat

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|Tradition (2nd)

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|Bonus Feat

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|Bonus Feat

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|Bonus Feat

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|Tradition (3rd)

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|Bonus Feat

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|Bonus Feat

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|Tradition (4th)

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|Bonus Feat

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|Tradition (5th)

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|Bonus Feat

[/table]

Tradition: Fighters come from many backgrounds, and receive many different kinds of training. A fighter from one country may have a completely different style than one from a neighboring country, and even two fighters trained in the same unit may have different approaches to combat. At 1st level, a fighter chooses 1 save to be her good save, and the other two saves become her poor saves. She also gains a bonus feat depending on her choice. she does not need to meet the prerequisites for this bonus feat. Fortitude: toughness*. Reflex: Dodge*. Will: Die Hard*

At 5th level, a fighter must choose a track reflecting her training and fighting style. she gains the benefits associated with her track choice at 5th, 7th, 13th, 17th, and 19th level. Alternatively, a fighter can choose to be "self trained". a self trained fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 5th level, and can choose from the 5th level benefits of any track or a bonus feat at 7th level. at each further tradition level, the self trained fighter can choose any lower tradition ability or a bonus feat (5th or 7th at 13th, 13th or lower at 17th, and 17th or lower at 19th)

Bonus Feats: at each even numbered level, a fighter gains a bonus feat. this feat must be chosen from the fighter bonus feat list. a fighter does not need to meet ability score or skill rank prerequisites to take these feats, although she must meet other prerequisites as normal. by spending a full round reflecting on her training, a fighter can retrain one bonus feat granted by this class. if the feat she gives up is the prerequisite for another feat she possesses, then she loses the benefits of that feat until she meets the prerequisites again.

*these are homebrew versions of these feats. if you don't want to use these versions, then either pick appropriate feats, or allow a normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level.

Dodge (General, Fighter)
You are adept at being anywhere except where your opponent's sword is aimed.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, base reflex save +2
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This bonus improves to +2 when you reach BAB +6, and +3 when you reach BAB +12.
You gain a +2 bonus to reflex saves.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of her fighter bonus feats.

Toughness (General, Fighter)
Prerequisites: Base fortitude save +2, Constitution 13
Benefit: You gain 3 bonus hit points, plus 1 additional hit point per HD per point of constitution bonus (minimum +1).
You gain a +2 bonus to fortitude saves.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of her fighter bonus feats.

Die Hard (General, Fighter)
You are too stubborn to die.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, base will save +2
Benefit: You are not considered disabled when you reach 0 hit points or less. You are not considered dying when your hit points are negative. You are not dead until your hit points are equal to or more than your HD x your Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) below 0 or at -10, whichever is less. you become staggered at the hit point value you would die at, and are knocked unconscious if you take any further damage.
You gain a +2 bonus to will saves
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of her fighter bonus feats.

lunar2
2013-01-02, 05:41 PM
The Forgemaster is a fighter who has learned the secrets of crafting extraordinary weapons and armor for herself and her allies.

at 5th level, the forgemaster fighter gains craft magic arms and armor as a bonus feat. her caster level for item crafting is equal to her fighter level. she must meet all the prerequisites for crafting an item, such as having access to certain spells either through multiclassing or by hiring a caster to assist in the creation process.

At 7th level, the forgemaster fighter no longer needs to meet the spell prerequisites for crafting an item, as long as her item creation caster level is high enough to cast the lowest level version of those spells.

at 13th level, the forgemaster fighter spends only 1/3 the base price of the magic item in GP to enhance it, as if she were crafting a masterwork item. she must still pay other GP costs, such as for spellcasting services, as normal.

at 17th level, the forgemaster fighter no longer spends the base XP cost to create a magic item. she must still pay other XP costs, such as the XP component of certain spells if she casts them herself, as normal.

at 19th level, items crafted by a forgemaster fighter are no longer considered magic when it would be detrimental to be so. a magic sword, for example, still bypasses damage reduction as a magic weapon, but it is immune to attacks such as dispel magic or disjunction, and functions normally in an antimagic field.

While the ability descriptions all reference item creation, the default forgemaster is limited to crafting weapons, armor, shields, and ammunition. Individual DMs should make the decision whether to allow a forgemaster to take other item creation feats.

The Lucky Bastard

5th level: What Happened? (Ex): Whenever you succeed on a save with a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead take no effect.

7th level: Unnatural Luck (Su): you gain a number of luck points equal to Ĺ your fighter level, rounded down. You can apply these luck points to your attack rolls, any one save, 1 skill, all ability checks, and/or AC, or to the attack rolls and/or AC of any creature(s) within 60 feet. These luck points grant a luck bonus or penalty (your choice when you assign them) equal to the number of points applied. It is an immediate action to assign luck points, and they stay assigned until you reassign them. If another creature that you have assigned luck points to moves farther than 60 feet from you, the bonus or penalty still applies until you next reassign the points, but once you do, you canít assign the points to them again unless they are within 60 feet.

13th level: Improved What Happened? (Ex): whenever you fail a save against an effect that normally has a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead take the lesser effect

17th level: Instant Recovery (Ex): reroll all results of 1 on any D20 roll. You must accept the results of the reroll, even if it is another 1.

19th level: I Just Canít Miss (Ex): you do not automatically fail an attack roll or save on a roll of natural 1. Your opponents do not automatically succeed on attacks against you on a roll of natural 20. You are immune to special effects triggered by an opponentís natural 20 roll, such as the Vorpal weapon quality, but not normal critical threats.

Knight

5th level: Mount (Ex): you gain a loyal mount. Use the statistics of an animal companion, except your effective druid level is 4 less than your fighter level, your mount gains the Share Skills* ability instead of share spells, and you are limited to animals suitable for mounts. Generally, domesticated quadrupeds 1 or more size categories larger than yourself are suitable for mounts, but other choices may be available at DMís discretion. You can have only 1 mount at a time. Mount counts as the animal companion class feature for the purposes of qualifying for feats and prestige classes, or for using magic items. Mount stacks with the animal companion class feature, as long as the animal companion is a suitable mount.

7th level: Living Fortress (Ex): when wearing heavy armor, you gain DR X/-, wear X is the total armor bonus provided by the armor you are wearing. This damage reduction stacks with permanent damage reduction of the same type, such as that granted by the barbarian class, as well as damage reduction of the same type granted by the armor you are wearing, such as adamantine armor.

13th level: Agile Charge (Ex): When riding your mount, you can charge 2 times per round, but you are limited to the movement distance provided by a normal charge. You can make a single turn of up to 90 degrees between the charges. You also ignore difficult terrain that costs 2 or less squares of movement when charging.

17th level: Shield Block (Ex): When you are wearing a shield on one arm, and have nothing in that hand, you gain a miss chance equal to 5% times the total shield bonus granted by that shield. For example, a tower shield would give you a 20% miss chance, while a +5 heavy shield would grant a 35% miss chance.

19th level: Jousting (Ex): When you hit an opponent with a melee attack during a mounted charge, they must make a reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or fall prone, and be knocked directly away from you along the line of your charge 5 ft. per 10 points of damage dealt by the attack, taking an additional 1D6 points of damage per 10 feet traveled. If they hit a wall or other object that would stop their momentum, they take double the damage they would have for being knocked back. The movement caused by jousting does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Only creatures 1 size category large than you or smaller can be affected by jousting.

*Share Skills (Ex): when you are riding your mount, you both make skill checks as one creature. Use the higher of your ranks or the mountís ranks + the higher of your ability modifier or the mountís ability modifier + the higher of your other modifiers or the mountís other modifiers on all skill checks. You can only use shared skills if it is something both you and your mount could feasibly do. For example, you canít share the disable device skill unless your mount had hands to use tools with, nor can you share the spot skill if you are blind.

lunar2
2013-01-07, 06:52 PM
alright. feel free to give feedback.

Zman
2013-01-07, 09:19 PM
morph's recent post about fighter fixes got me thinking, and now i'm working on yet another fighter fix. for this, i wanted to keep the modularity of the original fighter, the original design goal of being able to create almost any martial combatant from a single base class.

so, the new fighter will have a variable good save, keep most of the original's bonus feats, and the actual class features will be selected along several "tracks", including a track that combines features from other tracks.

The Fighter
HD: D10
Class Skills: Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Listen, Profession, Ride, Spot, SwimNo Dungeoneering? Odd Knowledge Choices,molesse give 4+Int
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Good Save|Poor Saves|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|Tradition (saves)

2nd|+2|+3|+0|Bonus Feat

3rd|+3|+3|+1|

4th|+4|+4|+1|Tradition (1st)

5th|+5|+4|+1|

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|Bonus Feat

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|Tradition (2nd)

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|Bonus Feat

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|Tradition (3rd)

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|Bonus Feat

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|Tradition (4th)

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|Bonus Feat

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|Tradition (5th)

[/table]

Tradition: Fighters come from many backgrounds, and receive many different kinds of training. A fighter from one country may have a completely different style than one from a neighboring country, and even two fighters trained in the same unit may have different approaches to combat. At 1st level, a fighter chooses 1 save to be her good save, and the other two saves become her poor saves. She also gains a bonus feat depending on her choice. she does not need to meet the prerequisites for this bonus feat. Fortitude: toughness*. Reflex: Dodge*. Will: Die Hard*

At 4th level, a fighter must choose a track reflecting her training and fighting style. she gains the benefits associated with her track choice at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.

Bonus Feats: at 2nd level, and every 4th level afterwards, a fighter gains a bonus feat. this feat must be chosen from the fighter bonus feat list. a fighter does not need to meet ability score or skill rank prerequisites to take these feats, although she must meet other prerequisites as normal. by spending one hour in training, a fighter can retrain her bonus feats granted by this class. if the feat she gives up is the prerequisite for another feat she possesses, then she loses the benefits of that feat until she meets the prerequisites again.

Ouch, loss of feats hurts.

*these are homebrew versions of these feats. if you don't want to use these versions, then either pick appropriate feats, or allow a normal fighter bonus feat at 1st level.

Dodge (General, Fighter)
You are adept at being anywhere except where your opponent's sword is aimed.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, base reflex save +2
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This bonus improves to +2 when you reach BAB +6, and +3 when you reach BAB +12.
You gain a +2 bonus to reflex saves.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of her fighter bonus feats.

Solid.

Toughness (General, Fighter)
Prerequisites: Base fortitude save +2, Constitution 13
Benefit: You gain 3 bonus hit points, plus 1 additional hit point per HD per point of constitution bonus (minimum +1).
You gain a +2 bonus to fortitude saves.
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of her fighter bonus feats.

Umm, wow. Double Con to HP could get excessive.

Die Hard (General, Fighter)
You are too stubborn to die.
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13, base will save +2
Benefit: You are not considered disabled when you reach 0 hit points or less. You are not considered dying when your hit points are negative. You are not dead until your hit points are equal to or more than your HD x your Wisdom bonus (minimum 1) below 0 or at -10, whichever is less. you become staggered at the hit point value you would die at, and are knocked unconscious if you take any further damage.
You gain a +2 bonus to will saves
Special: A fighter can take this feat as one of her fighter bonus feats.

Complicated but potentially useful.


The Forgemaster is a fighter who has learned the secrets of crafting extraordinary weapons and armor for herself and her allies.

at 4th level, the forgemaster fighter gains craft magic arms and armor as a bonus feat. her caster level for item crafting is equal to her fighter level. she must meet all the prerequisites for crafting an item, such as having access to certain spells either through multiclassing or by hiring a caster to assist in the creation process.
Marginal savings having to hire the Spellcaster and craft. How about extra bonuses for using your crafted items?

at 8th level, the forgemaster fighter spends only 1/3 the base price of the magic item in GP to enhance it, as if she were crafting a masterwork item. she must still pay other GP costs, such as for spellcasting services, as normal.

Better, too bad the lack of feats cripple combat options.

at 12th level, the forgemaster fighter no longer spends the base XP cost to create a magic item. she must still pay other XP costs, such as the XP component of certain spells if she casts them herself, as normal.

Interesting, but not worth a feat.

at 16th level, items crafted by a forgemaster fighter are no longer considered magic when it would be detrimental to be so. a magic sword, for example, still bypasses damage reduction as a magic weapon, but it is immune to attacks such as dispel magic or disjunction, and functions normally in an antimagic field.

Unique, but not worth a feat.

at 20th level, a forgemaster fighter gains craft epic arms and armor, even though she does not meet the prerequisites for it.

Ok, makes 20th level interesting.

my original plan was to have the items become "not magic" at 20th level, and have the 16th level ability be ignoring spell prerequisites. however, that would plant the forgemaster fighter firmly into T2, since it would have all the power of an artificer (crafting items for cheap), without the versatility. i'm certainly not aiming for that, so instead the forgemaster gets early access to an epic feat as its capstone. note: whiel the ability descriptions all reference item creation, the default forgemaster is limited to crafting weapons, armor, shields, and ammunition. Individual DMs should make the decision whether to allow a forgemaster to take other item creation feats.

The Lucky Bastard


4th level: What Happened? (Ex): Whenever you succeed on a save with a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead take no effect.

Well worth the feat.

8th level: Unnatural Luck (Ex): 1/round force any character within 60 ft. to reroll any attack roll, save, skill or ability check, and take the result of the reroll as an immediate action. The decision to use this ability can be made after the success or failure of the original roll is determined, but must be used before the effects of that success or failure are determined. Example, if your opponent scoreís a critical threat against your ally, you can force them to reroll the original attack roll, but you must do so before they roll the critical confirmation roll.

Well worth a feat.

12th level: Improved What Happened? (Ex): whenever you fail a save against an effect that normally has a lesser effect on a successful save, you instead take the lesser effect

Still worth a feat, too bad he doesn't have good saves,

16th level: Instant Recovery (Ex): reroll all results of 1 on any D20 roll. You must accept the results of the reroll, even if it is another 1.

A significant improvement over the life of a campaign.

20th level: I Just Canít Miss (Ex): you do not automatically fail an attack roll or save on a roll of natural 1. Your opponents do not automatically succeed on attacks against you on a roll of natural 20. You are immune to special effects triggered by an opponentís natural 20 roll, such as the Vorpal weapon quality, but not normal critical threats.

1's already don't matter, ignoring 20s by enemies rarely comes into play because let's face it, you are worse than a base fighter in combat and won't have that high of an AC.



Ok, here is my take.

You've severely crippled the Fighters already weak combat capabilities by removing half of their feats. You've given them two set paths to follow, one is very specific and not of much use unless you are crafting the items for others since you effectively arent good at using your own weapons. The feat loss is crippling for the Forgemaster. The Lucky bastard has good abilities but lacks just as much Versitility as the Core Fighter.

The retrain feat ability is good, too bad you've removed most of his feats leaving the a fighter feat starved.

I think giving the Fighter the choice of both optional paths in addition to their standard feat allotment. If you gave them 4 or 6 + Int skill points and a better skill list you'd have a solid start to a class. As it stands your fighter is weaker than the core fighter, still greatly lacking in versatility, and only gains a preset path and the ability to retrain their half feat allotment.

As compared to the Artificer, the Forgemaster is only making Magical Arms and Armor, that won't make him Tier 2.

Hope you find my comments useful.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-07, 09:23 PM
Indeed. I'd keep the standard chassis, and add path abilities at all odd-numbered levels.

lunar2
2013-01-07, 10:01 PM
so, add in the lost feats? that's fine.

@Zman. these won't be the only 2 paths, these are just the only 2 i have done so far. for example, i want to turn the other T5 martial classes into paths, as well. in fact, i'm about 1/2 way done with the zealot (paladin), and have ideas for both the swashbuckler and monk based paths.

@bad saves. you get your pick of 1 good save, and one or two multiclass or prestige class choices can really boost your saves.

Zman
2013-01-07, 10:13 PM
Yes, keeping the feats would be great.

Multiclassing or Prestige classes negate your Paths purpose. I'd like to see the possibility of paths adding another good save progress ion for appropriate classes.

The Fighter is still greatly lacking in out of combat abilities, extra skills and skill points would be greatly appreciated. Maybe Path Slection at lvl 1 which grants either additional Skill Points, Class Skills, and possibly saves is an option.

Also, for a fighter to be a competent combatant giving them the ability to make at least one a iterative attack as a standard action or charge is very beneficial. I made some of these tweaks on my Fighter fix if you are interested.

Using the Fighter as a base chassis is ok, but the Fighter is a poor Tier 5 class and needs some love. Paths help, but what the Fighter desperately needs is some out of combat capabilities.

lunar2
2013-01-07, 10:31 PM
well i did add in a couple of new class skills. and forgemaster is all out of combat stuff, while most of lucky bastard is just as usable out of combat as in combat (such as forcing a reroll every round on just about any D20 roll, or rerolling all natural 1's on a D20, even those that aren't auto-fail on a 1)

@bad saves. that was specifically addressing the point of having sucky saves. the reason "what happened?" affects all saves, though, is because the fighter gets to choose their good save.

@I just can't miss. actually, a lucky bastard would have the exact same AC as the baseline fighter. he's proficient with the same heavy armor, and has access to the same items. very few feats really do much for AC, so that's not an issue. and you can still fail on a nat 1 on roughly 1 out of every 400 attack rolls with instant recovery, since you can always roll a 2nd 1. i just can't miss eliminates even that small chance.

lunar2
2013-01-08, 03:04 PM
i was thinking about forgemaster last night, and Zman, i think you underestimate it.

craft magic arms and armor and craft epic arms and armor are both feats, and therefore worth a feat.

the GP cost reduction is roughly equivalent with the extraordinary artisan feat (ECS), and stacks with that feat, so definitely worth a feat.

the XP cost negation is strictly better than the legendary artisan feat (ECS), so definitely worth a feat.

and items counting as magic only when beneficial may not sound like much, until you get dropped into an AMF, and you are the only one that can still hit anything.

forgemaster may not be superpowered (like it would have been if it could ignore spell prerequisites), but it is definitely not gimped, since each of its abilities is at least situationally as good as a feat. btw, isn't there a feat to ignore AMFs?

now, that said, a forgemaster runs into the same problems as all other item crafters, and is nigh useless in a fast paced campaign. but that's not a problem with the forgemaster itself, just an incompatibility with a certain campaign type (like a wizard in a no magic world).

i'll still add in the lost feats, but i don't think they are strictly necessary for the 2 traditions posted thus far. the fighter was at the top of T5 to begin with, so this fix is easily T4 with just what has been given so far.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-08, 03:25 PM
forgemaster may not be superpowered (like it would have been if it could ignore spell prerequisites)
Wait, it needs spells? (checks) Huh. Yeah, that's... bad. Almost Truenamer bad-- no class should have to jump through hoops to make its class features functional, much less its main schtick. You're only making a very limited subset of items to begin with, probably the worst set in terms of pure power. Let them ignore spell prerequisites.

Also, even if you have all the original feats and the path abilities, you're not going to break T4, at least not by much.

To respond more directly:

craft magic arms and armor and craft epic arms and armor are both feats, and therefore worth a feat.
But you can't use that feat, because you still need to hire someone else. Not worth it.


and items counting as magic only when beneficial may not sound like much, until you get dropped into an AMF, and you are the only one that can still hit anything.
Oh, it's useful and beneficial. But it's a very, very situational thing-- how often do you see AMFs in play? Compare that to the consistent use of something like Power Attack.

nonsi
2013-01-08, 03:56 PM
1. Levels 5, 7, 13, 17, 19 . . . DEAD x.x
2. This Fighter's still crying as far as class skills and skill points are involved.

lunar2
2013-01-08, 04:56 PM
Wait, it needs spells? (checks) Huh. Yeah, that's... bad. Almost Truenamer bad-- no class should have to jump through hoops to make its class features functional, much less its main schtick. You're only making a very limited subset of items to begin with, probably the worst set in terms of pure power. Let them ignore spell prerequisites.

Also, even if you have all the original feats and the path abilities, you're not going to break T4, at least not by much.

To respond more directly:

But you can't use that feat, because you still need to hire someone else. Not worth it.


Oh, it's useful and beneficial. But it's a very, very situational thing-- how often do you see AMFs in play? Compare that to the consistent use of something like Power Attack.

you don't need any spells for direct enhancement. nor do you need spells for some special abilities (admittedly not many). but, i didn't like having craft epic arms and armor anyway, so i'll drop ignore spell prereq's in at 8th, and bump the gp and Xp cost reductions up to 12 and 16, respectively. that will push the "not magic" magic items up to 20, which was where i originally wanted it.

@AMF it depends on the group. not to mention the feature also protects against detect magic, dispel magic (and greater), disjunction, and a handful of other effects that locate, disrupt, or destroy magic items. and in a C. War. style gladiator match (no magic weapons or armor), it can also be very useful for sneaking in your good stuff. i'm not saying it's a game breaker, just that it is definitely better than, say, weapon focus (seriously, how often does that +1 make a difference? less than 5% of the time, as it turns out).

now, i have ideas for a knight (medieval jousting style knight in shining armor type). he'd get a mount at 4th, some heavy armor and shield bonuses at 8th (miss chance if using both an armor and a shield, maybe), maybe some charging bonus at 12th like ignoring difficult terrain, or maybe getting to charge twice a round within the movement range of a charge (with the ability to make a single turn of up to 90 degrees between charges.) kind of stumped for 16th and 20th, though.

@ dead levels. you know, i never noticed that. i'll think of something.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-08, 05:24 PM
This fix doesn't really address any of the Fighter's issues.

You've actually decreased his combat ability by denying him feats that would normally increase his combat ability, and you haven't really increased his versatility in exchange: he may be a bit luckier or able to save a bit of his wealth for non-weapon purposes, but neither of these makes up for his loss of options and strength in-combat, let alone coming close to increasing his general effectiveness in non-combat or unorthodox-combat situations.

Zman
2013-01-08, 05:45 PM
This fix doesn't really address any of the Fighter's issues.

You've actually decreased his combat ability by denying him feats that would normally increase his combat ability, and you haven't really increased his versatility in exchange: he may be a bit luckier or able to save a bit of his wealth for non-weapon purposes, but neither of these makes up for his loss of options and strength in-combat, let alone coming close to increasing his general effectiveness in non-combat or unorthodox-combat situations.

This. It reiterates the points I was trying to make, but was done more effectively.

lunar2
2013-01-08, 06:54 PM
This fix doesn't really address any of the Fighter's issues.

You've actually decreased his combat ability by denying him feats that would normally increase his combat ability, and you haven't really increased his versatility in exchange: he may be a bit luckier or able to save a bit of his wealth for non-weapon purposes, but neither of these makes up for his loss of options and strength in-combat, let alone coming close to increasing his general effectiveness in non-combat or unorthodox-combat situations.

yeah, sorry. i need to update the OP. the fighter keeps all his bonus feats, with the tradition applied on top of that. and getting a weapon and armor for 1/3 market value is more than "a bit" of his wealth, since weapon and armor end up being something like 1/2 a fighter's wealth. besides, being able to ignore spell prerequisites means that he can do some things like intelligent weapons/armor with out of combat spells. and creating items for 1/3 or less of market value allows some WBL abuse (not necessarily a good thing, but meh.)

also, make any one creature within 60 ft. reroll 1 D20 as an immediate action at will, after determining whether or not that roll would have been a success or failure, is more than a bit luckier. that's a lot luckier, especially because it can be applied efficiently, unlike most luck based rerolls.

with these two traditions, at least, the fighter gains significant out of combat ability, and at least marginal (and probably more than marginal) in combat ability.

and the ability to retrain feats each day allows for a lot of versatility, if the wizard bothers to tell you what you are fighting (or if you are hunting something specific).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-08, 07:35 PM
yeah, sorry. i need to update the OP. the fighter keeps all his bonus feats, with the tradition applied on top of that. and getting a weapon and armor for 1/3 market value is more than "a bit" of his wealth, since weapon and armor end up being something like 1/2 a fighter's wealth. besides, being able to ignore spell prerequisites means that he can do some things like intelligent weapons/armor with out of combat spells. and creating items for 1/3 or less of market value allows some WBL abuse (not necessarily a good thing, but meh.)

True. He saves 200,000gp. 200,000gp is not enough to make taking levels in Fighter worth it. Neither does it make much sense to have him creating weapons and armor capable of casting spells: that's fixing the Fighter by tacking bits of Wizard onto him. Not really fixing the Fighter itself there.


also, make any one creature within 60 ft. reroll 1 D20 as an immediate action at will, after determining whether or not that roll would have been a success or failure, is more than a bit luckier. that's a lot luckier, especially because it can be applied efficiently, unlike most luck based rerolls.

Correct. While I'd argue that it doesn't really feel much like a Fighter, it is a very good ability.


with these two traditions, at least, the fighter gains significant out of combat ability, and at least marginal (and probably more than marginal) in combat ability.

Magic weapons and armor isn't a lot of out-of-combat ability, and although a re-roll is usually considered equivalent, on average, to +5, the Fighter's skills aren't good enough for that extra +5 to really let him contribute against level-appropriate challenges.


and the ability to retrain feats each day allows for a lot of versatility, if the wizard bothers to tell you what you are fighting (or if you are hunting something specific).

But since feats are not equivalent to actual class features, this still leaves the Fighter lacking, especially because you have no way of knowing what you'll be facing...except for a Wizard finding out for you. Again, using the Wizard to fix the Fighter isn't a good idea, design-wise.

lunar2
2013-01-08, 08:17 PM
making intelligent items is not "using wizard to fix the fighter". it's "using your class abilities to their fullest". why is it that when artificers craft something to duplicate another class, that gets them T1, but when any other class does the same thing, it's "using the wizard", etc.?

and any item creation feat gives significant out of combat ability, in the form of crafting items and selling them for a profit. item crafting is generally done "out of combat"

@feats not equaling class features. you are correct. a feat does not equal a class feature. 2 feats, however, do (shape theft gloves + open hand chakra = trapfinding. shape sphinx claws + open hand chakra = pounce). sorry, i just had to throw that one in there.

@depending on the wizard for divinations. nearly everyone is dependent on the resident divination caster to know what they will face. that's a fact of the system, not a flaw of any specific class.

@lucky bastard. well, can you figure out a more "fighter" way to represent extraordinarily good luck? not being sarcastic, i'd like to see a better way to do that.

@skills. he can also grant that reroll to the party face, or force the reroll on the party's target. +5 on him is kind of bad, yeah. +5 on the guy that's supposed to do the talking? much more effective.

anyway. lets get something clear. the fighter does not need to be able to do everything on his own. he does not need the ability to do any more than support the face in social situations. he does not need the ability to fight every type of creature simultaneously.

he needs:

a reliable method of dealing damage to the enemy. check (forgemaster can make whatever weapon works best. lucky bastard dances right over low rolls and keeps on going, knight will most likely be able to ignore difficult terrain during a mounted charge).

some way of adapting to different situations. check. retraining feats allows you to adapt some elements of your fighting style to the situation at hand. let's maybe change it to changing a feat as a full round action, instead of an hour to change all 10.

a method of staying alive. check. lucky bastards can turn hits into misses, forgemasters have the best armor available. knights will likely have miss chances.

the ability to contribute in a support role outside of combat. forgemasters make money, and equip their party. lucky bastards manipulate fate just by being there. knights can aid another on social skills (meh, i'll think of something for them).

i'm sure i'm missing something, but that is most of the fighter's job, right there.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-08, 08:53 PM
making intelligent items is not "using wizard to fix the fighter". it's "using your class abilities to their fullest". why is it that when artificers craft something to duplicate another class, that gets them T1, but when any other class does the same thing, it's "using the wizard", etc.?

Because the Artificer's entire concept is that he creates magical items. He's NOT a Fighter: he specifically crafts magical items. The Fighter has no reason to suddenly be a magical craftsman: it fits nowhere in his concept.


and any item creation feat gives significant out of combat ability, in the form of crafting items and selling them for a profit. item crafting is generally done "out of combat"

Making money is not what I'm referring to as out-of-combat utility. I'm referring to the ability to contribute in non-combat encounters, or unusual combat circumstances.


@feats not equaling class features. you are correct. a feat does not equal a class feature. 2 feats, however, do (shape theft gloves + open hand chakra = trapfinding. shape sphinx claws + open hand chakra = pounce). sorry, i just had to throw that one in there.

So the standard Fighter gains 5 class features. Huzzah. And you replicated Trapfinding, which is a poor class feature. Pounce I'll give you. That said, class features are still better, and usually more synergistic.

The point is that feats alone, or even in conjunction, cannot make a class viable at later levels.


@depending on the wizard for divinations. nearly everyone is dependent on the resident divination caster to know what they will face. that's a fact of the system, not a flaw of any specific class.

Correct. But a class shouldn't need it to contribute. This is why the Tier system is


@lucky bastard. well, can you figure out a more "fighter" way to represent extraordinarily good luck? not being sarcastic, i'd like to see a better way to do that.

Limit it to himself or attack rolls against him only. That makes it more Fighter centric, and it can be either luck or his martial skill.


@skills. he can also grant that reroll to the party face, or force the reroll on the party's target. +5 on him is kind of bad, yeah. +5 on the guy that's supposed to do the talking? much more effective.

Correct. Again, odd that his luck makes others better, but meh.


i'm sure i'm missing something, but that is most of the fighter's job, right there.

Which is a large part of the problem. Combat is the Fighter's role...and that role needs to be expanded, or the Fighter will never really be "fixed." :smallbiggrin:

lunar2
2013-01-08, 09:09 PM
Because the Artificer's entire concept is that he creates magical items. He's NOT a Fighter: he specifically crafts magical items. The Fighter has no reason to suddenly be a magical craftsman: it fits nowhere in his concept. the forgemaster was originally intended for dwarves. dwarf = 'nuff said there.




Making money is not what I'm referring to as out-of-combat utility. I'm referring to the ability to contribute in non-combat encounters, or unusual combat circumstances.

yeah, i use the term more generally.


So the standard Fighter gains 5 class features. Huzzah. And you replicated Trapfinding, which is a poor class feature. Pounce I'll give you. That said, class features are still better, and usually more synergistic.

i really should have used blue here.





Correct. But a class shouldn't need it to contribute. This is why the Tier system is you got cut off there. that said, what about decreasing the time needed to retrain, making it possible in combat, like i said before.



[/quote]Limit it to himself or attack rolls against him only. That makes it more Fighter centric, and it can be either luck or his martial skill.



Correct. Again, odd that his luck makes others better, but meh.[/quote]

@helping party members. it still benefits him, so it's still his luck. if my friend wins the lottery, i'll see a little bit of that, too. i'll have to think about this one.

ooh! what about: have (fighter level/2) "luck points" that can be distributed as an immediate action among your own attack rolls, AC, saves, skill checks, and ability checks, or the attack rolls or AC of anyone around you within 60 ft? these luck points manifest as a luck bonus or penalty, your choice. so, if you are fighting a bunch of opponents, you could boost your own attack rolls or AC, but if you are fighting a single tough opponent, you would penalize your opponent's attack rolls or AC. and if you aren't in range or don't have an appropriate attack form, you can boost your allies' attack rolls or AC? so your luck benefits yourself all the time, but it only affects others in combat.


Which is a large part of the problem. Combat is the Fighter's role...and that role needs to be expanded, or the Fighter will never really be "fixed." :smallbiggrin:

i don't plan on going that deep into it. just making the fighter a better fighter here, with support for different styles.

lunar2
2013-01-12, 02:18 PM
updated the OP. moved the tradition abilities onto dead levels, since the fighter gets all his bonus feats back. added ignoring spell prereq's as the 7th level forgemaster ability, and bumped everything else back one. no more craft epic arms and armor bonus feat. updated unnatural luck to add bonuses or penalties instead of granting rerolls. added in the knight track. i'm concerned that mount may be too weak, because of the level penalty. i know animal companions are generally considered equivalent to T5 martial characters, but is that with or without spell support? if it is with spell support, then the level penalty needs to be eliminated, if it's on their own, then the penalty should be fine.

Zman
2013-01-12, 03:08 PM
A Druids animal companion can best Tier 5s only with Spell support, as is eliminate the level penalty, limit it to rideable animals, and possibly consider boosting it slightly. I'd also add a clause about how they get their mount, materializing out of thin air makes little sense.

Gotta like the idea of Riding a Dinosaur as a Knight.

Edit: May also want to clarify agile charge.

Also, DR equal to your Armor Bonus needs to be clarified, stacking DR13/- from +5 Plate is a bit crazy, unless that was your intent, then I'd say it'd probably still work balance wise.

I think with more possible Traditions the class is starting to shape up nicely.

lunar2
2013-01-12, 03:37 PM
alright, will update mount. the mount is (Ex). it is a normal animal that has been specially bred and trained, not some magical attraction. where you actually get this mount is just fluff, and therefore up to the individual player/DM.

DR13/- for +5 full plate is exactly what i meant. DR 16/- if it's adamantine full plate.

what exactly needs to be clarified? when you charge, you pick 1 target that you can get to with less than a double move. you attack it. you turn anywhere from 0 to 90 degrees from your original charge, and use any remaining movement (at least 10 feet, obviously) to get to your second target, who you attack as per a normal charge. you also get to ignore some, but not all, difficult terrain while charging.

Zman
2013-01-12, 04:11 PM
How about AoO on your charge? 90 degree turn, but facing probably has to be clarified. Also stating this is an exception to normal charge rules as well as action economy. Can it be taken if only allowed a single action charge, ie surprise round!

I'm just having difficulty envisioning it. What about allowing them to charge through an enemy without provoking AoOs and continuing on to another opponent withing a cone following he same direction as the charge or even charge attack vs all enemies in a straight line?

lunar2
2013-01-25, 02:56 PM
adding knowledge local, bluff, and sense motive to the class skill list.

working on a "silent assassin" tradition:

5th level: hide and move silently become class skills. gain ranks in hide and move silently equal to fighter level + 3. if any skill points were already invested in hide or move silently, and the new ranks would put you over the maximum rank for your level, refund enough skill points to bring you down to max. additionally, gain bonus skill points equal to fighter level +3, to be spent immediately.

so a silent assassin fighter has skill points equal to 5+ intelligence modifier.

7th level: a silent assassin fighter can, as a full round action, attempt a coup de grace against a creature that is unaware of the fighter, even if that creature isn't helpless.

13th level: hide in plain sight (Ex): a silent assassin of 13th level or higher can hide without cover or concealment, or while being observed (but not both at once).

stumped about what to do for 17th or 19th.