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Cipher Stars
2013-01-05, 05:36 PM
Timeless Ring
The wearer of a timeless ring does not age. Their body revitalizes, regenerating back to that of a young adult and remaining there for as long as the ring be worn. As their body is reverted to a youthful state, they do not gain penalties for aging. Neither, however, do they gain benefits. Of course this means they do not die of old age, a young adult dying of old age would be preposterous.
To benefit from the timeless ring it must be worn for one week, after which they degenerate their age by one year per week until the first month, when they degenerate ten years per week until young adult or first year has passed, when they degenerate one hundred years per week until young adult.
If they are separated from the ring, they start aging again from young adult as normal.
If a creature that is not yet young adult wears the ring, they will be aged until they are young adult before ceasing and preventing age as normal.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 20th; Forge Ring, wish or miracle; Price 97,950 gp; Cost 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-01-05, 05:43 PM
Does it reverse the physical ability score penalties of aging? If not, then it's probably greatly overpriced, given that it's mostly cosmetic.

DaedalusMkV
2013-01-05, 05:48 PM
Some things you'll need to clarify:

Does this still produce the benefits and penalties of aging? Does it negate the penalties while keeping the benefits intact (like the Monk Class Feature, for example)? Or does it negate both the benefits and penalties?

Does it prevent death by old age, or is it more like the Monk Class Feature where you still die when it's 'your time'?

How long does it take for the ring to take effect? Is it instantaneous, or does it require a period of 'attunement' before it begins to provide its effect?

What happens when the ring is taken off? Does the character's age immediately reassert itself, is it a slow process or do they begin aging from Young Adult as normal?

What happens when the ring is worn by someone who is younger than a Young Adult? Would a 6-year-old given the ring age rapidly to Young Adult, or would they just be unaffected?

The answers to the above will seriously impact how valuable this item is.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-05, 05:53 PM
Does this still produce the benefits and penalties of aging? Does it negate the penalties while keeping the benefits intact (like the Monk Class Feature, for example)? Or does it negate both the benefits and penalties?

No penalties or benefits.



Does it prevent death by old age, or is it more like the Monk Class Feature where you still die when it's 'your time'?

Of course it does. The Monk's ability is pathetic. *Is annoyed with those abilities that you get at such high levels yet don't really do anything*



How long does it take for the ring to take effect? Is it instantaneous, or does it require a period of 'attunement' before it begins to provide its effect?

Attunement.



What happens when the ring is taken off? Does the character's age immediately reassert itself, is it a slow process or do they begin aging from Young Adult as normal?

Begin aging from Young Adult.



What happens when the ring is worn by someone who is younger than a Young Adult? Would a 6-year-old given the ring age rapidly to Young Adult, or would they just be unaffected?

No effect, though perhaps rapid aging to Young Adult would make for interesting story/backgrounds for a character/NPC.



The answers to the above will seriously impact how valuable this item is.



So what would the value be then? It shouldn't be too much I hope, it has little actual use... though perhaps if it didn't effect your magic ring total. (It's way silly you can only have two anyway...) (Will be adding the above once a better price is suggested to edit all at once)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-05, 06:40 PM
If it extends your life forever? Very, VERY expensive, probably artifact level magic. Otherwise why doesn't EVERYONE with any money have one of these? In terms of game mechanics it isn't worth much, but it's campaign-works effects should dictate an outrageous price, or a non-mortal origin.

TechnOkami
2013-01-05, 06:43 PM
If it extends your life forever? Very, VERY expensive, probably artifact level magic. Otherwise why doesn't EVERYONE with any money have one of these? In terms of game mechanics it isn't worth much, but it's campaign-works effects should dictate an outrageous price, or a non-mortal origin.

Because the Liches are destroying them wherever they might be. It's hurting their whole Lichdome & undeath with magical prowess. Bad for business. :smalltongue:

DaedalusMkV
2013-01-05, 06:56 PM
So what would the value be then? It shouldn't be too much I hope, it has little actual use... though perhaps if it didn't effect your magic ring total. (It's way silly you can only have two anyway...) (Will be adding the above once a better price is suggested to edit all at once)

Roughly as much as a large kingdom. Maybe a bit more valuable than that. Ten million GP? 20 maybe?

Let me put it this way. Someone wears the ring for a week, they immediately reverse age to about 20 or so and get another 80 years of natural lifespan, plus lose all the bad things that come with old age. As a one-time effect, people would pay their entire life savings for that on it's own. Just to have the ring for a week, a noble would pay tens of thousands of GP. And that's all you need, the ring for a week once every twenty or thirty years, to achieve immortality. One ring as you've described it would be considered an artefact of gravest significance, the kind of thing that Empires fight wars over and are worth far more than any king's ransom. A campaign setting where they're as common as +3 swords? Is one where aging is just not a thing. Nobody in such a world has any excuse for looking a day over 40, ever. Every great hero will live until someone manages to kill him. Every sufficiently paranoid tyrant will reign for centuries. If that's what you want, cool. If not, well...

Debihuman
2013-01-05, 06:57 PM
Magic items that duplicate spells can't do more than that. Restoration doesn't prevent aging so I don't think that is the correct spell to use. Restoration removes negative levels. You should probably base it off true resurrection.

The cost is Spell level 9 caster level 17 which is the lowest level you can be to cast spell 2,000 gp for a continuous item x 1.5 since the spell takes 10 minutes for total of 459,000 gp but you get a 30% reduction if you must be a cleric to make this ring so 459,000 - 137,700 plus the 25,000 gp diamond needed to cast the spell in the first place. Total cost 345,300 gp.

Debby

Andion Isurand
2013-01-05, 07:25 PM
I'd just go with Kissed by the Ages (Dragon 354) to create a ring that confers the Endless quality.

absolmorph
2013-01-05, 07:45 PM
If a Venerable creature put this on, would they lose the age bonus to mental scores?
What would happen if a dragon wore one of these?

Debihuman
2013-01-05, 08:46 PM
I'd just go with Kissed by the Ages (Dragon 354) to create a ring that confers the Endless quality.

That spell would far more costly because it has a 5,000 xp cost to cast the spell. That adds 5,000 xp X 50 X5 gp to the cost or 1,250,000 gp. Ouch!

It is a 9th level spell so the minimum caster level is 17 (Sor/Wiz) x 2,000 gp for continuous effect x 1/2 because it take an hour to cast = 153,000 gp plus 1,250,000 gp for a whopping total cost 1,556,000 gp.

You'd be better off with using true resurrection as the basis of the spell since that would only cost 345,300 gp. It's almost 1/5th the cost.

A ring that confers endless youth is going to be expensive.

Debby

Yitzi
2013-01-05, 08:55 PM
Within a game, anything above a trivial cost is overpriced, as Grod_The_Giant said.
Within a world, anything below an artifact (preferably a major artifact) is underpriced, because it removes the one truly irreversible/unavoidable-without-extreme-measures means of a character's career ending.

As a practical-use item, it's horribly designed. It has a lot of potential as the Macguffin that people are fighting over, though.

Saidoro
2013-01-05, 09:00 PM
I'm confused. In what way is the almost 7000 pounds of gold dictated by Debi's 345,000 GP price not insanely expensive? (That's $166,631,191 in today's market.) High or even upper mid level D&D isn't fantasy as it appears anywhere except superhero comics and certain animes, agelessness really isn't that huge a deal in that environment, no need to charge through the nose for it.(Especially when the ring is of greater mechanical benefit to fighter types and others who really have more need of nice things.)

DaedalusMkV
2013-01-05, 09:05 PM
I'm confused. In what way is the almost 7000 pounds of gold dictated by Debi's 345,000 GP price not insanely expensive? (That's $166,631,191 in today's market.) High or even upper mid level D&D isn't fantasy as it appears anywhere except superhero comics and certain animes, agelessness really isn't that huge a deal in that environment, no need to charge through the nose for it.(Especially when the ring is of greater mechanical benefit to fighter types and others who really have more need of nice things.)

Let me ask you a question: Do you think that there is a single person on this entire planet that could afford it that wouldn't pay ten billion dollars for the right to make himself and everyone he really cares to eternally youthful with no drawbacks whatsoever? We're talking about the sort of value that would bring nations crashing to their knees and completely redefine the meaning of the word "desirable".

Mechanically, the item is no big deal. The stat benefits are tiny, and any campaign where immortality would be useful would of necessity provide it. In terms of what it does to a setting, though, it needs to be near-unique or unfathomably difficult to create. Because, like I said, a world where such rings are no more difficult to obtain than a +3 sword is a world where everyone of importance is immortal.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-05, 09:13 PM
As a practical-use item, it's horribly designed. It has a lot of potential as the Macguffin that people are fighting over, though.

What does being ageless have to do with horribly designed as a practical use item? It's agelessness. It's not supposed to be for practical use.


Note; Agelessness. Agelessness is not Immortality. I dislike it when Immortality is used to describe Agelessness.

No benefits or penalties from aging, This adds nothing to your mechanics. You have no benefit other than roleplaying a more interesting character/saying you're older than you look, or playing a character you loved in a new campaign after the old, when that character normally would have died out.

*shrug* or playing a clueless six year old who looks twenty just trying to survive with a sword in hand.


I think it's cost as is is alright. Perhaps. I totally just copied it from Ring of three Wishes, I'm sure it's fine.
The cost isn't important anyway, the point is for it to exist. If a DM wants to give it to a person, they'll give it to a person. If a DM lets a character have one for character creation, they'll have it.

Saidoro
2013-01-05, 09:20 PM
Look at it this way: this is an item which can only be made by a 20th level character, basically a demigod in their own right. Add to that that what actually goes into making a magic item is entirely unspecified, you could be talking about 97,950 gold worth of innocent sacrifices as easily as you could about magic gems or whatever. Furthermore it takes this Nigh-almighty Wizard over 3 months of constant work to make the thing.

The thing is exactly as obtainable as it needs to be. If it's just randomly showing up in magic-marts with no explanation then clearly the DM is making a world wherein immortality is really no big deal. If it's actually as hard to get your hands on as you'd expect something hand made by one of the most powerful beings to have ever lived would be then it'll be valuable regardless of its game-mechanical market price.

Yitzi
2013-01-05, 09:26 PM
agelessness really isn't that huge a deal in that environment

Of course it is; that's why powerful evil mages (and clerics) turn themselves into liches.


What does being ageless have to do with horribly designed as a practical use item?

If it's not meant for practical adventuring use but rather than for use in the wider world, then anything easily attainable before mid-epic levels at the earliest is overpowered, and I suspect anything easily attainable period would be overpowered.

With this item available for mere cash, the most powerful character alive today is probably the most powerful character to ever exist since the item was developed, since he won't die of old age and you can be brought back from nearly anything else.


The cost isn't important anyway, the point is for it to exist. If a DM wants to give it to a person, they'll give it to a person. If a DM lets a character have one for character creation, they'll have it.

That sounds like you might want to make it a minor artifact, so that it's exclusively under DM control rather than just being bought or made.

Debihuman
2013-01-05, 10:09 PM
I totally just copied it from Ring of three Wishes, I'm sure it's fine.

A ring of three wishes was updated: it's market price in MIC is 97,950. Its cost to create should be half that. Also, a ring that can be used 3 times is far cheaper than a ring with a continuous effect.

Debby

Saidoro
2013-01-05, 10:35 PM
Of course it is; that's why powerful evil mages (and clerics) turn themselves into liches.
Becoming a necropolitan is cheap and easy. Buying scrolls of contingency and reincarnate is cheap and slightly less easy. Becoming an elan is free and undefined in difficulty. Dying and having a friend plane shift over to your afterlife of choice to pick you up is free and easy. It's really not the big deal you're making it out to be.

EDIT: An automatically resetting reincarnate trap only has a market price of 228,000 GP, and it could provide infinite youth to billions upon billions of people.

Debihuman
2013-01-05, 10:52 PM
An automatically resetting reincarnate trap only has a market price of 228,000 GP, and it could provide infinite youth to billions upon billions of people.

How do you figure that. It would just reincarnate them and then they have to take a different form. Who wants to come back as a bugbear? To get your original form back requires a wish spell. Casting the spell is different from using a spell to power a magic item. The ring doesn't actually cast reincarnation but the trap would.

Debby

TuggyNE
2013-01-05, 11:17 PM
Dying and having a friend plane shift over to your afterlife of choice to pick you up is free and easy.

A dead but resurrectable creature changes form entirely, becoming a petitioner with lousy HD, hardly any skills, next to no memory of their past life, and no ability to use any of their previous class features. Plane shifting that away? You're welcome to the useless dead weight. It's only raise dead and the like that can reconstruct a useful PC.

Saidoro
2013-01-05, 11:20 PM
How do you figure that. It would just reincarnate them and then they have to take a different form. Who wants to come back as a bugbear? To get your original form back requires a wish spell. Casting the spell is different from using a spell to power a magic item. The ring doesn't actually cast reincarnation but the trap would.

Reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) creates "an entirely new young adult body" for the target, once someone is nearing their maximum age they can quite easily kill themselves and have their body dumped on the reincarnation assembly line to become young again.
EDIT:

A dead but resurrectable creature changes form entirely, becoming a petitioner with lousy HD, hardly any skills, next to no memory of their past life, and no ability to use any of their previous class features. Plane shifting that away? You're welcome to the useless dead weight. It's only raise dead and the like that can reconstruct a useful PC.
The rules on when and how you become a petitioner are ambiguous, as is what happens to the soul after death. Still, I'll concede the point and make the assumption that all dead PCs immediately become petitioners, I don't really need that specific example for my overall argument to be valid anyway and I'd rather not be bogged down by tangential arguments.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-05, 11:58 PM
Note; Agelessness. Agelessness is not Immortality. I dislike it when Immortality is used to describe Agelessness.

I don't think anyone is saying it IS immortality. But, by your own admission earlier, it does prevent you from dying from old age.


I think it's cost as is is alright. Perhaps. I totally just copied it from Ring of three Wishes, I'm sure it's fine.
The cost isn't important anyway, the point is for it to exist. If a DM wants to give it to a person, they'll give it to a person. If a DM lets a character have one for character creation, they'll have it.

DM edict is not really an excuse for poor design: the ability you have here is fine mechanically, but it's not good for an RPG, because it has huge non-mechanical impact. It would make an incredibly good artifact, but it does not make a good normal item, especially at low cost.

Rainbownaga
2013-01-06, 06:46 AM
http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

Thought Xycon's speech was relevant

This would make quite an interesting artifact (lesser artifact maybe). On one hand it grants eternal youth, on the other it attracts attention from those who want the powers for itself, and will likely actually shorten the wearer's life.

On one hand it can grant its benefits to hundreds of individuals, but if its perceived value is so great, the risk of someone absconding with it (and the need for it to be worn for a whole week to be effective) would create quite a (moral/financial) dilemma.

Combined with a ring of sustenance and a healing trap, it would make for a nasty torture device.

Debihuman
2013-01-06, 07:10 AM
The drawback to using reincarnate is that you might become a different creature altogether and the expense is immense.

If you don't mind 3rd party material, Tide of Years by Penumbra Press has the Time Domain. The Time Domain has been put out as a full PDF here: http://www.atlas-games.com/pdf_storage/pen_time_domain.pdf

I think the wellspring of youth spell would work for the reversal of aging process in the ring.

Since the earliest you could cast this spell is if you had the Time Domain let's factor that in. 7th level spell X CL 13 x 2000 for continuous use - 30% caster must be a Cleric with the Time Domain plus 100 gp of diamond dust (100 x 50)

7x13x2000 = 182,0000 - 54,600 = 127,400 + 5,000 = grand total: 132,400 gp.





Debby

Saidoro
2013-01-06, 08:58 AM
I wasn't suggesting using reincarnate to price the ring, I was offering it as a standard of comparison to prove that this thing really doesn't need to have a crazy high price. The pricing tables in the DMG are only guidelines anyway, not hard and fast rules by any means and I have no problem with the price presented in the first post.

The reason I don't think it should be an artifact is because that takes it out of the player's hands and puts it into the DM's. If a player's concept involves immortality they should have ways of accomplishing that without resorting to DM fiat.

Debihuman
2013-01-06, 09:46 AM
I wasn't suggesting using reincarnate to price the ring, I was offering it as a standard of comparison to prove that this thing really doesn't need to have a crazy high price. The pricing tables in the DMG are only guidelines anyway, not hard and fast rules by any means and I have no problem with the price presented in the first post.

The reason I don't think it should be an artifact is because that takes it out of the player's hands and puts it into the DM's. If a player's concept involves immortality they should have ways of accomplishing that without resorting to DM fiat.

Guidelines yes, but if you figure out the price you can get a good idea if you're doing it right. A ring that effectively lets you live forever is certainly worth a lot more than a ring of three wishes. It might not feel that way as a player but put it in a campaign and see which baddie wants it the most. Evil necromancers who don't want to become liches for example.

Most people just ignore aging the way they ignore encumbrance. You can handwave all you like but in a standard game, it matters. I see a lot of homebrews that just gloss over things that should otherwise be important: balance is a big one. Everyone wants bigger, faster, better more and at the cheapest price. It's the same in real life. I don't blame anyone for this. I just think that sometimes, it absolutely has to stated that breaking the rule shouldn't be done as lightly as most homebrewers think. It leads to Monty Haul at best and Munchkinism at worst. That doesn't mean it isn't creative. It just means you're excessive and likely to overestimate how good you are.

Hey, I believe in giving people what they want as long as the request is reasonable. Giving someone the vigor of youth is fine, giving them immortality is not.

IMNSHO, this is a fairer version of the ring, which would appeal to the vain more than to the power hungry. What the power hungry really want is a magic item that lets them look young, lets them keep all the benefits of aging, lets them lose all the penalties of aging, and lets them live forever. An item that can do all that should be a Major Artifact not a ring.

Timeless Ring
The wearer of a timeless ring must be no less than Middle Age for the ring to function. The wearer's body reverts to its Young Adult stage. The wearer loses whatever bonuses or penalties he or she gained from the natural aging process but also gains no further benefits and penalties for aging. The ring must be worn at all times or the aging process immediately catches up to the wearer, though it can be started anew by placing the ring back on the wearer's finger.

Aura Strong Conjuration (Healing)[Time], CL 17; Forge Ring, wellspring of youth, Caster must be a Cleric with the Time Domain, Cost 132,400 gp Price to Create 66,200 gp and 5,296 XP

Debby

Cipher Stars
2013-01-06, 09:51 PM
The ring does not grant immortality and a wearer who exceeds his or her maximum age limit still dies of old age





That mindset is the most retarded thing in the whole of creation, at least in D&D and Pathfinder's creation.
^- I don't direct that at you, I direct that at the method of thinking that dying of old age when you don't age is worth two pints of guano.
I wouldn't buy [I]that ring for more than 1,000 gold. Far from worth it's cost.

And again, I kindly ask anyone who posts at least in this topic to never refer to agelessness as immortality. They are not one in the same.

Jyton
2013-01-06, 11:05 PM
That mindset is the most retarded thing in the whole of creation,
*snip*

At least we're all still being friendly here.

The point, I think, is that most of us are talking at cross purposes.

Most of the people who have posted here feel that such an item, obtainable at the cost of a mere 8% of the WBL of a 20th level character, is overpowered, and ought to be granted at the discretion of the DM. I agree. The OP does not. The distinction comes when we compare the (admittedly minor) mechanical effects on a Player Character versus the effects the existence of such items would have on the gaming world at large. This is an important distinction to keep in mind.

While the lack of physical bonuses and mental penalties the ring removes are minor, the more significant issue is the fact that, a thousand years from first acquiring the ring, the PC will have had a thousand years to grow his or her power.

Agelessness is, in general, a Big Deal. The OP doesn't (seem to) run his games that way, so in that context (only,) I feel the ring as first suggested is fine, but I would not ever allow such a ring into one of my games.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-06, 11:54 PM
At least we're all still being friendly here.

Snipping the part that states I wasn't directing that at anyone here makes it sound mean >,..,>


While the lack of physical bonuses and mental penalties the ring removes are minor, the more significant issue is the fact that, a thousand years from first acquiring the ring, the PC will have had a thousand years to grow his or her power.

Except that a level one or six or sixteen character is always a level one or six or sixteen character no matter how old they are.

DaedalusMkV
2013-01-07, 12:14 AM
Snipping the part that states I wasn't directing that at anyone here makes it sound mean >,..,>

Except that a level one or six or sixteen character is always a level one or six or sixteen character no matter how old they are.

And that's the difference in attitude we're talking about. The way you look at it, age is just fluff. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 1500, if you're level 15 you're level 15.

The way we look at it, a 500-year-old Wizard has had 500 years to master all the secrets of magic and a Fighter with 500 years of combat experience and a body in peak physical condition should be a demigod on the battlefield. Having that much time to master one's chosen career should just make you really damned good at it, especially in a system where doing things equals XP equals power. Moreover, it would have a huge effect in the structure and presentation of a world where life expectancies measured in centuries are common. It's mostly an expectations thing, and it's showing up as the result of a difference in point of view and focus. Much like Jyton, I would never allow such an item in my campaign except as a one-off artifact that drives the plot in a major way but that doesn't mean that you can have it in yours.

Yitzi
2013-01-07, 01:39 AM
And that's the difference in attitude we're talking about. The way you look at it, age is just fluff. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 1500, if you're level 15 you're level 15.

The way we look at it, a 500-year-old Wizard has had 500 years to master all the secrets of magic and a Fighter with 500 years of combat experience and a body in peak physical condition should be a demigod on the battlefield. Having that much time to master one's chosen career should just make you really damned good at it

This.


especially in a system where doing things equals XP equals power.

Er...you know that if you replace "XP" with "experience" in its non-game-mechanical sense, real life is such a system?

DaedalusMkV
2013-01-07, 02:32 AM
Er...you know that if you replace "XP" with "experience" in its non-game-mechanical sense, real life is such a system?

Only to a much, much more limited degree than in Dungeons and Dragons. In real life, spending six months beating people up won't give me the ability to shrug off a sword to the chest, master four different languages and actually just better at everything, period.

In real life, doing things equals getting better at that thing due to experience, until you are no longer challenged, and only as long as you actively practice the skill. In D&D, doing things equals getting better at just about everything, until you are no longer challenged, forever.

It's a big difference, practically speaking. Someone 500 years old in real life will have lost any skills he didn't practice in the last 5 years or so. In D&D, all that stuff he's mastered is there for life. Of course, arguing what a 500-year-old would be like in real life is kind of difficult...

Yitzi
2013-01-07, 10:51 AM
Only to a much, much more limited degree than in Dungeons and Dragons. In real life, spending six months beating people up won't give me the ability to shrug off a sword to the chest, master four different languages and actually just better at everything, period.

In real life, doing things equals getting better at that thing due to experience, until you are no longer challenged, and only as long as you actively practice the skill. In D&D, doing things equals getting better at just about everything, until you are no longer challenged, forever.

That's due to abstraction; it's assumed that while achieving challenges you're practicing all your stuff.


Someone 500 years old in real life will have lost any skills he didn't practice in the last 5 years or so.

As stuff becomes more ingrained, though, I think he'll have to practice less and less often to maintain his level.

Zale
2013-01-07, 07:39 PM
And again, I kindly ask anyone who posts at least in this topic to never refer to agelessness as immortality. They are not one in the same.

That's one of my pet peeves too.

I can see, however, why they object. It can stretch belief when a 500 year old person somehow manages to only be as competent as someone who is 30.

This seems like an excellent plot device.

Sacrieur
2013-01-07, 07:53 PM
You do get the benefits for aging without any of the penalties.

Learning new skills (IRL) develops neural pathways that help you perform that particular skill better. A martial artist can block a punch without thinking: because his neural circuitry is hooked up in such a way that he does so on reflex. Once the threat is identified, it bypasses our decision making processes and heads straight for our motor cortex. This can shave off hundreds of milliseconds.

Other skills, like drawing or surgery, rely on tuning of fine motor control.

Should these pathways degrade from lack of use (why keep around stuff you don't use?), it's easier to rebuild them.

D&D doesn't play by these same rules, though. And the normal limits imposed on RL humans don't apply to D&D characters. So *shrug*

Agelessness vs. immortality is an interesting dilemma. For instance, the monk's ability seems to smack science in the face for what we know about aging. The only conclusion is that aging in D&D doesn't work like aging in RL. And that characters have a time limit on how long they can live, but can remain somewhat youthful until the end.

Vaz
2013-01-07, 08:33 PM
You're really saying you wouldn't buy a ring that gives any none DWK/True Dragon character the ability to buy themselves an untyped +3 to all Mental Stats without any penalties provided they are able to buy it as WBL on character creation for 1000gp?

However, with essentially the whole ability resolving into a lesser "alter self" to make you younger, I would put it as wealth for in game purchase as a near nonentity; I only know of two aging effects; Time Dragon Breath (1 yr per age category), and another epic monster whose name has just run from my mind.

Zale
2013-01-07, 08:42 PM
You're really saying you wouldn't buy a ring that gives any none DWK/True Dragon character the ability to buy themselves an untyped +3 to all Mental Stats without any penalties provided they are able to buy it as WBL on character creation for 1000gp?

However, with essentially the whole ability resolving into a lesser "alter self" to make you younger, I would put it as wealth for in game purchase as a near nonentity; I only know of two aging effects; Time Dragon Breath (1 yr per age category), and another epic monster whose name has just run from my mind.

Actually, the Ring as written would freeze them at young adult, which is disadvantageous for dragons..

No penalties, yet not benefits.

Sacrieur
2013-01-07, 08:46 PM
Actually, the Ring as written would freeze them at young adult, which is disadvantageous for dragons..

No penalties, yet not benefits.

The ring ages you backwards. You could use it to maintain any age you'd like.

DaedalusMkV
2013-01-07, 08:54 PM
The ring ages you backwards. You could use it to maintain any age you'd like.

Naw, it instantaneously reverts you to Young Adullt as soon as the attunement period is through, as written. Even if you were younger than that to begin with. You can reset your aging, but you can't age yourself backwards to a desired point.

Zale
2013-01-07, 08:56 PM
The ring ages you backwards. You could use it to maintain any age you'd like.

Ah, yes.

That still doesn't change the fact that it doesn't give you a +3 bonus on mental stats without any penalties.

Or that Dragons would want to be as old as possible..

Sacrieur
2013-01-07, 09:14 PM
To benefit from the timeless ring it must be worn for one week, after which they degenerate their age by one year per week until the first month, when they degenerate ten years per week until young adult or first year has passed, when they degenerate one hundred years per week until young adult.

Attuning is one week, then you can age backwards.

Debihuman
2013-01-07, 11:02 PM
Snipping the part that states I wasn't directing that at anyone here makes it sound mean >,..,>

Except that a level one or six or sixteen character is always a level one or six or sixteen character no matter how old they are.

Age does not equate to level, that's true. However, age does have a place in game. For short lived races such as quicklings who would only live 16 years before they die, that could be an issue. However, we're not like to see many quickling PCs.

The ring also becomes obsolete once characters are high enough level to take prestige classes or template that grant agelessness.

Not all magic items are equal. The ring isn't all that valuable if the PCs are relatively young. It wastes a slot to wear it if it isn't necessary. Odds of it being sold rather than used are fairly high.

A ring of timelessness is a niche item. In the right hands, it's incredibly valuable. Those hands are more likely to belong to an NPC than a PC. PCs are more likely to die from fighting than from old age any way.

If you allow a ring to grant immortality insofar as a PC cannot die from old age but still allows them to die from other effects (injury, poison, drowning, starvation, suffocation, etc.), then it likely won't have much of an impact on the game. There's glory to be had dying in battle, not so much from dying in old age.


And again, I kindly ask anyone who posts at least in this topic to never refer to agelessness as immortality. They are not one in the same.

In what world do you live in that agelessness is not a form of immortality. If you have agelessness, even if you can die from other means, you are effectively immortal. That doesn't mean you are immune to death effects in any way. We're not talking divine immortality (which means you no longer need to breathe or eat or sleep and cannot die from natural causes) . For mortals, living forever without aging is effectively being immortal in the dictionary sense.

Debby

Deepbluediver
2013-01-07, 11:43 PM
I agree with the earlier poster that I like the idea of this as a single item in campaign. I don't know if that alone makes it worthy of "artifact" status, or its a requirement that there be a whole pile of other conditions attached to it.
As a commonly produced item all it does is cheapen death still further, and to anyone with more than a few levels of commoner death is already pretty cheap in D&D world.

Also, personally I don't like the way ability scores work with age (I had a whole thread on this topic a little while back) and I think that as soon as you take off the ring you age to whatever your real age is (or at most within a few moments). If this exceeds your maximum age then you automatically drop dead. That would make it a lot harder to share one ring amongst a bunch of people.


In what world do you live in that agelessness is not a form of immortality? If you have agelessness, even if you can die from other means, you are effectively immortal.

I've always thought of ageless-style effects as "limited immortality" in that you can't die, but you can be killed.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-08, 12:16 AM
In what world do you live in that agelessness is not a form of immortality. If you have agelessness, even if you can die from other means, you are effectively immortal. That doesn't mean you are immune to death effects in any way. We're not talking divine immortality (which means you no longer need to breathe or eat or sleep and cannot die from natural causes) . For mortals, living forever without aging is effectively being immortal in the dictionary sense.

Debby


No, you are not. Immunity to aging is the same as being immune to fire, you don't die from aging just as you don't die from getting burned. Burned? You aren't burned, and your skin isn't charcoal-ized- because you aren't burned. Aged? You aren't aged, and your skin isn't wrinkling- because you aren't aged.

Immortality is an unending existence. You do not die. Ever. Synonymous with eternity, which is endlessness.
Immortality is that you do not die. You are not mortal.

Being ageless is far from being immortal- far from not being mortal. Being ageless is simply when your body does not try to kill itself the older it gets due to the shortening of the cell's capacity to store information and replicate efficiently.
It does not in any way stop you from dying via arrow-to-knee or sword-to-chest, or dumb luck catching a nasty disease, random stray arrows, or getting a knife in the back. It does nothing to release you from the bonds of mortality, it just gives you more time to die in nasty ways.

The very name immortality means you are not mortal, or have ascended from mortality. The "dictionary sense" is unending and not mortal.

I could potentially consider the divine ability immortality as given for the divine characteristics of deities to be closer to immortality, it's not that close but it's far closer to the mark.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#immortality

Immortality
All deities (even those of rank 0) are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to death from massive damage.

Notice even in that "immortality" it is far more than simple agelessness, granting complete sustainability- an immortal with that could survive in a dark pit for centuries while an "ageless" person would die in three days without water.


A sorcerer/wizard with contingent resurrections is more immortal than someone who never dies of natural causes/age.



In turn, as I seem to understand of have a much stricter definition of immortality, I find myself greatly displeased despite myself when someone refers to agelessness as immortality. Particularly when they continue to do so when I ask kindly not to within my own thread.

Stating that agelessness is immortality is like saying immunity to fire is a form of immortality.

*Goes to tend to the poor broken nail sacrificed in the making of this post T~T*




Also, personally I don't like the way ability scores work with age (I had a whole thread on this topic a little while back) and I think that as soon as you take off the ring you age to whatever your real age is (or at most within a few moments). If this exceeds your maximum age then you automatically drop dead. That would make it a lot harder to share one ring amongst a bunch of people.

That's against the nature of the ring, which is already complete and as-is.

Debihuman
2013-01-08, 01:38 AM
In turn, as I seem to understand of have a much stricter definition of immortality, I find myself greatly displeased despite myself when someone refers to agelessness as immortality. Particularly when they continue to do so when I ask kindly not to within my own thread.

Not a "they," just me apparently. I'll refrain in the future. However, I'd like to point out that once you post a thread, it effectively stops being strictly yours. It is a public forum after all. In deference to your bias, I'll go back and edit my earlier post. Pax? I'd extend an olive branch but I don't see an emoticon for that. :smallsmile:

A ring that allows one agelessness is nonetheless a niche market, appealing only to those whose time is running out.There is a certain amount of drawback to this as loved ones, children, grandchildren, etc. shrug off their own mortal coil. It can grant much misery. Plus it is a grand tool for torturers and the like. They can spend much longer since over time you'll heal again, and again and again. That saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is not necessarily the truth. I did note that the ring did not grant immortality. What you seemed to dislike was that being ageless also meant that you could contradict the rules on death from exceeding your time limit while appearing youthful. I took those words directly from the spell. However, it's now edited out.

Zale
2013-01-08, 08:43 AM
I once made a post on the Minecraft forum about if Steve? the main character was immortal..

Someone was confusing several definitions.



I think the words you are looking for aren't the ones you are using.

Immortal means something can not die. At all. Any.

The phrase you are looking for is Indefinite Lifespan, or Biological Immortality. That means something is immune to the rigors of old age, and only dies when something actually kills it.

Invincible means something is to powerful to be conquered or overcome.

The word you are looking for is Invulnerable, or perhaps Indestructible. This means something is impossible to destroy or injure.

Steve is indeed possessed of an Indefinite Lifespan, simply because he never dies of old age. Very few, if any, things do in Minecraft.

He is neither Immortal, Invincible, Invulnerable or Indestructible because it's always possible to kill, defeat, injure or destroy him.


While this is not entirely relevant to the conversation, it still bothers me when people use immortal incorrectly.

Cheesegear
2013-01-08, 09:20 AM
If they are separated from the ring, they start aging again from young adult as normal.

Seemed like a good idea until this sentence. There are no downsides to losing the ring. If you're using the Ring to get back your youth, fine. Wear the Ring for a week, then throw it in a hole. Or give it to your friend to wear for a week and suddenly you can have an army of Young Adults who each have 40 years experience - with no physical penalties. It doesn't matter.

The point is, once you wear the ring for a week, you don't need it anymore. I can think of several ways to abuse trading 60 years of age for a week of sitting in a tower doing absolutely nothing dangerous until the week is up.

The ring appears to be nothing more than a ritual that takes a week to complete. Then you throw it in a drawer for later and put on your Ring of Ultimate Plane Annihilation instead and go back to doing whatever you were doing before you put on the ring.

Just a flaw I see. The idea is a staple of the genre. Nothing against it. But...If you intend for it to be abused, then everything is fine.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-08, 10:22 AM
There are no downsides to losing the ring.
*snip*
Just a flaw I see. The idea is a staple of the genre. Nothing against it. But...If you intend for it to be abused, then everything is fine.

Hence the reason for my suggestion that removing the ring restored your "real" age, meaning you had to wear it constantly. I'm picturing the ending of the Indiana Jones movie where the bad guy drinks from the wrong chalice, and ages into dust in about 10 seconds. :smallsmile:

Alternatively, stretch out the aging over the course of a few days or a week, which means you still can't share one ring, but it gives a nice plot hook and time-limit for stealing/retrieving rings.


I guess what I'm saying is, I like the idea of a ring that confers agelessness, but I wouldn't use THIS item in a game, as is.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-08, 11:57 AM
Hence the reason for my suggestion that removing the ring restored your "real" age, meaning you had to wear it constantly. I'm picturing the ending of the Indiana Jones movie where the bad guy drinks from the wrong chalice, and ages into dust in about 10 seconds. :smallsmile:

Alternatively, stretch out the aging over the course of a few days or a week, which means you still can't share one ring, but it gives a nice plot hook and time-limit for stealing/retrieving rings.


I guess what I'm saying is, I like the idea of a ring that confers agelessness, but I wouldn't use THIS item in a game, as is.

The point of the ring is that it changes your "real" age. That IS the real age you see.
Stupid druids/monks... *Glares at their class features*

Although it would be perfectly valid for the rings to have a bonding phase. Meaning, for lack of the better word, the rings are virgins at first. Once worn, that virginity is lost. That first wearer's genetic code has been stored in the right and is now it's building block, useless to others who do not share similar genetics.
Which could have interesting side effects, such as perhaps the ring can be inherited or used to find the "True queen/king", or maybe the rings could be used for other purposes like a source for spells that require some of the subject remaining like a raise dead spell, or a focus to speak with the original bearer... Or used as a very unique key to something.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-08, 12:09 PM
The point of the ring is that it changes your "real" age. That IS the real age you see.
Stupid druids/monks... *Glares at their class features*

But then this isn't really a Ring of Agelessness, it's more like a Ring of Youth. Mechanically, what it does is make you young again, and you just appear to be ageless because it can apparently do this an infinite number of times.


I'm not sure what exactly you have against Monks/Druids. Timeless body is a sucky class feature because it's benefit wont show up in most campaigns, unless you want to start out by building a high-level "ancient hermit" type of character.
As I said, I don't like the existing rules for aging, and I'd support changing them, but magic item really raises all kinds of issues. Fixing one problem with more problems is bad, IMO.

Debihuman
2013-01-08, 12:20 PM
True seeing spells still reveal a creature's true age no matter how you want to spin agelessness.

Druid How do I look?
Wizard: Not bad for 3,336. Not a day over 25. :amused:

Debby

Cipher Stars
2013-01-08, 12:32 PM
But then this isn't really a Ring of Agelessness, it's more like a Ring of Youth. Mechanically, what it does is make you young again, and you just appear to be ageless because it can apparently do this an infinite number of times.

What it does is it makes you age in reverse until it's effect causes you to remain young adult, as before that it would age you rapidly age, after that you would reverse, so it keeps you at young adult.
Agelessness is a side effect.



True seeing spells still reveal a creature's true age no matter how you want to spin agelessness.

Druid How do I look?
Wizard: Not bad for 3,336. Not a day over 25. :amused:

Debby

It makes no sense for true seeing to see anything different. Any logical method of detection would be a divination effect that simply tells you, not the visual information of true seeing...

"Magic Mirror, How old am I?" "Congratulations madam, you've hit your nine thousandth birthday"

"Creepy old guy, how old am I?" "Not a day over twenty lass*drools in his long white beard and covers a stick-up with his pointy hat*"

Deepbluediver
2013-01-08, 12:37 PM
What it does is it makes you age in reverse until it's effect causes you to remain young adult, as before that it would age you rapidly age, after that you would reverse, so it keeps you at young adult.
Agelessness is a side effect.

Sorry, my bad; I guess I should have termed it "Ring of Middle-age" or perhaps "Ring of Adulthood" then.
As other have pointed out, what's the point of making a magic item that does this instead of just a ritual, when the magic item is far more easily abusable. This isn't a continuous magic effect, it's a magic item with an infinite number of charges.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-08, 12:42 PM
I notice it seems everyone seems to think it's instantaneous after one week, when I clearly said:

To benefit from the timeless ring it must be worn for one week, after which they degenerate their age by one year per week until the first month, when they degenerate ten years per week until young adult or first year has passed, when they degenerate one hundred years per week until young adult.

I never ever had the one-week attunement clause without it stating how long it takes to become young adult. A 60 year old would become young adult after about two/three months.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-08, 12:44 PM
More Arguments to make this a Minor Artifact

The effect is useless to PCs. 99.9% of campaigns don't last long enough for this to be at all valuable.
If it IS useful for PCs, it's only useful to try to eek extra mental statistics out of a build without paying the penalty.**
It's incredibly potent as a RP device, especially if you're trying to have a world make any sense. It's a fantastically powerful plot device, and wars could easily be fought over an item this power.


Things I Would Definitely Recommend

Making it a Minor Artifact.
Making the wearer have to keep the ring on at all times, or rapidly begin to age back to their proper age (perhaps 1d4% of your normal maximum lifespan years per day, making getting the ring back incredibly important).


The above would make an awesome, incredibly important artifact that could drive a number of really interesting plots, and wouldn't be TOO powerful if you wanted to just hand it to a PC. :smallbiggrin:

**This is what I might calculate the minimum cost based on. As per ability bonus increases, that's 9,000gp per +3 bonus, and there are three scores in question (Int, Wis, Cha). I'd probably increase that another 50-100%% for the bonus being stackable: that puts us at about 40,000gp minimum. Perhaps an extra 20,000 for the eternal life effect, meaning that we're looking at a lowest cost of 60,000gp.

Now there's not really a space limitation, as you don't have to always wear the ring...so we double it again: 120,000gp is my low estimate.

Debihuman
2013-01-08, 12:58 PM
It makes no sense for true seeing to see anything different. Any logical method of detection would be a divination effect that simply tells you, not the visual information of true seeing...

"Magic Mirror, How old am I?" "Congratulations madam, you've hit your nine thousandth birthday"

"Creepy old guy, how old am I?" "Not a day over twenty lass*drools in his long white beard and covers a stick-up with his pointy hat*"

True seeing is a divination spell.

Debby

Cipher Stars
2013-01-08, 12:59 PM
More Arguments to make this a Minor Artifact

*The effect is useless to PCs. 99.9% of campaigns don't last long enough for this to be at all valuable.
*If it IS useful for PCs, it's only useful to try to eek extra mental statistics out of a build without paying the penalty.**

You don't gain any benefits or penalties with this ring.



*It's incredibly potent as a RP device, especially if you're trying to have a world make any sense. It's a fantastically powerful plot device, and wars could easily be fought over an item this power.


It depends on the setting.
The setting and reason I made this for myself is because in the setting, agelessness is very common with a variety of methods to attain it. At minimum, most people have their life spans increased. Many people are into their double centuries, with a few survivors from certain events 500 years ago who managed to live long enough or were trapped in time through various means that they were present in this new victory against age.
It is represented with high populations despite a hostile world, a very important boon for humanity.




*Making the wearer have to keep the ring on at all times, or rapidly begin to age back to their proper age (perhaps 1d4% of your normal maximum lifespan years per day, making getting the ring back incredibly important).

... no. The ring works with your age, not hiding your age. You age as normal from young adult...




The above would make an awesome, incredibly important artifact that could drive a number of really interesting plots, and wouldn't be TOO powerful if you wanted to just hand it to a PC. :smallbiggrin:

**This is what I might calculate the minimum cost based on. As per ability bonus increases, that's 9,000gp per +3 bonus, and there are three scores in question (Int, Wis, Cha). I'd probably increase that another 50-100%% for the bonus being stackable: that puts us at about 40,000gp minimum. Perhaps an extra 20,000 for the eternal life span effect, meaning that we're looking at a lowest cost of 60,000gp.

Now there's not really a space limitation, as you don't have to always wear the ring...so we double it again: 120,000gp is my low estimate.

http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_096_K.gif


.
.
.


http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/053.gif



If anyone wants, post how you would have your minor-artifact version for an alternative.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-08, 01:12 PM
... no. The ring works with your age, not hiding your age. You age as normal from young adult...

Then there's not really any point in ever buying this ring; you really just go down to the local dealership and rent it for a few months.


Also, it helps in evaluating the potential for an item if we know what setting it's going to be used in, especially if there are drastic changes compared to the standard D&D world.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-08, 01:19 PM
You don't gain any benefits or penalties with this ring.

So if I'm of Venerable age, I'd lose my intelligence bonuses? How does that work?


It depends on the setting.
The setting and reason I made this for myself is because in the setting, agelessness is very common with a variety of methods to attain it. At minimum, most people have their life spans increased.

That changes things, and should have been mentioned in the opening post. The default assumption is, I feel, a more generic setting, and this sort of item would be incredibly detrimental to plausibility in such a world.


... no. The ring works with your age, not hiding your age. You age as normal from young adult...

Then I would avoid making it a normally wearable item. I'd maybe make it a Chalice of Youth, that requires drinking from it every year or every X period of time to maintain the magical effect and/or refresh it.

I think it's a more INTERESTING item if you have to persist the effect or lose it though...it makes for a more interesting story, and a more interesting item. There's some danger in losing the item.


If anyone wants, post how you would have your minor-artifact version for an alternative.

Ring of Timelessness
Minor Artifact

A creature wearing the Ring of Timelessness slowly regresses to the age of Young Adult, at the rate of 1 year per day. They retain any mental ability bonuses they may have accrued, but their physical scores return to where they would have been at the Young Adult age.

Removing the ring restores the creature to its normal age at a rate of 1d4% of their maximum lifespan per day.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-08, 01:30 PM
Also, it helps in evaluating the potential for an item if we know what setting it's going to be used in, especially if there are drastic changes compared to the standard D&D world.

Mm. No comment.



So if I'm of Venerable age, I'd lose my intelligence bonuses? How does that work?
When you age back you regain a sense of youthful vigor and... hormones. As you age you become less clouded with them, since you're regaining them you lose your edge as you now find yourself prone to thinking the same thoughts any other young adult would. You could be thinking about your grand children one moment and inexplicably captivated with your great-grand daughter/son's excellent body, which happens to be about the same age as your own body now...

As people age in general the various chemicals that make up your body and influence your thoughts change, in addition to a closer relation with death and loss that seems to ground an old person's thoughts and actions.

It seems no to little stretch for me that your behavior and indeed your wisdom and intelligence, would be injected full of hot hormones ready to bother your now youthful mind. It helps that knowledge is more covered by your Knowledge skills rather than your intelligence score. Though some loss is likely to occur if you don't compensate.


That changes things, and should have been mentioned in the opening post. The default assumption is, I feel, a more generic setting, and this sort of item would be incredibly detrimental to plausibility in such a world.
Mhm.


Then I would avoid making it a normally wearable item. I'd maybe make it a Chalice of Youth, that requires drinking from it every year or every X period of time to maintain the magical effect and/or refresh it.

I think it's a more INTERESTING item if you have to persist the effect or lose it though...it makes for a more interesting story, and a more interesting item. There's some danger in losing the item.
Mm.


Ring of Timelessness
Minor Artifact

A creature wearing the Ring of Timelessness slowly regresses to the age of Young Adult, at the rate of 1 year per day. They retain any mental ability bonuses they may have accrued, but their physical scores return to where they would have been at the Young Adult age.

Removing the ring restores the creature to its normal age at a rate of 1d4% of their maximum lifespan per day.
Nifty. You should (hopefully) state that you don't die of old age when some crap about your "time runs out", because it seems such is assumed with everything.

Debihuman
2013-01-08, 02:26 PM
Then there's not really any point in ever buying this ring; you really just go down to the local dealership and rent it for a few months.

Now, why didn't I think of that? LOL.

Wearing the ring is no guarantee that it won't be stolen or that you won't lose a finger in the process.

I could see two versions of the ring. The minor artifact kind where it grants you agelessness but stops working the instant it is removed. Your actual age catches up to you. If you have exceeded your normal life span, you die. Corpses decay but you wouldn't turn to dust unless you were at least a couple of centuries old. [The very thing Cipher wants to avoid at all costs so this probably isn't a good idea. And after some consideration I see her point. This is more like a cursed timeless ring since it carries a potential death sentence]. Instead of dying, you just immediately start aging normally until you put the ring back on. If you do not put the ring back on, you could die if you again reach your maximum age. Putting the ring back on simply resets the date.

On the other hand, having this ring as a major artifact to be shared among multiple people at different times could be a headache.The ring itself is not exactly something that most PCs would want or need other than they'd want to be in on its money-making potential. They be sure to have proper contingency spells cast in case one of the renters decided to abscond with the ring. Of course, there's always the squick factor as someone's great-great-grand-dad goes a-courting again. This sort of artifact not only resets your aging clock so you have your allotted time all over again but if you take the ring off, you have a 50% chance of never aging again. You could be 30 until you die, leaving behind a pretty corpse for all eternity. You could be raised or reincarnated and still be the same effective age appropriate to your race. It would take a deity of divine rank 5 or more to overcome the ring's effect. [Alternative versions would come with a limited number of charges] Of course, it could be banished to a faerie realm where nobody ages anyway and wouldn't even be noticed.

Debby

Saidoro
2013-01-08, 10:36 PM
I can see, however, why they object. It can stretch belief when a 500 year old person somehow manages to only be as competent as someone who is 30.


And that's the difference in attitude we're talking about. The way you look at it, age is just fluff. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 1500, if you're level 15 you're level 15.

The way we look at it, a 500-year-old Wizard has had 500 years to master all the secrets of magic and a Fighter with 500 years of combat experience and a body in peak physical condition should be a demigod on the battlefield. Having that much time to master one's chosen career should just make you really damned good at it, especially in a system where doing things equals XP equals power. Moreover, it would have a huge effect in the structure and presentation of a world where life expectancies measured in centuries are common. It's mostly an expectations thing, and it's showing up as the result of a difference in point of view and focus. Much like Jyton, I would never allow such an item in my campaign except as a one-off artifact that drives the plot in a major way but that doesn't mean that you can have it in yours.
*cough* (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm) *cough* (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/elan.htm)

In what world do you live in that agelessness is not a form of immortality. If you have agelessness, even if you can die from other means, you are effectively immortal. That doesn't mean you are immune to death effects in any way. We're not talking divine immortality (which means you no longer need to breathe or eat or sleep and cannot die from natural causes) . For mortals, living forever without aging is effectively being immortal in the dictionary sense.
The first rule of immortality agelessness is 'You will die'. Sheer iterated probability means that any mortal being's chance of surviving infinitely is mathematically equal to zero.

The above would make an awesome, incredibly important artifact that could drive a number of really interesting plots, and wouldn't be TOO powerful if you wanted to just hand it to a PC. :smallbiggrin:

I could probably do worse with a decanter of endless water. I'm going to restate my point from a while back: by giving the thing a listed price you take it out of the DM's hands and put it into the player's. This is a good thing because it helps to facilitate concepts which may rely upon it and some players are afraid to ask for things if they don't have some listed means of acquiring them. The DM, on the other hand, has deciding what material is and is not available as an inherent part of their job so banning the thing if it doesn't fit really isn't more work for them.

Cheesegear
2013-01-09, 02:38 AM
When you age back you regain a sense of youthful vigor and... hormones. As you age you become less clouded with them, since you're regaining them you lose your edge as you now find yourself prone to thinking the same thoughts any other young adult would.

As people age in general the various chemicals that make up your body and influence your thoughts change, in addition to a closer relation with death and loss that seems to ground an old person's thoughts and actions.

HORMONES DON'T WORK THAT WAY! /Morbo

Second, define 'old person's thoughts and actions'. Do it. Right now.

Otherwise, figure out any other explanation you want for why you lose your Mental Scores, just not that one. Because it isn't correct...Unless you're also losing experience levels by putting on the ring.


Or, Hell. Leave the explanation as-is. But make it clear that the ring changes your personality as well while it's doing its thing. That way there really is a significant drawback to wielding a minor artefact (which there should be). Maybe it even changes your personality to the 'first person to wear it', to tie it into that story you made up.

Vaz
2013-01-09, 06:56 AM
Old People Thoughts; Radio 4/The Archers, Question Time, Hot Chocolate, Hot Water Bottles and Werther's Originals.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-09, 09:21 AM
Do it. Right now.



No.


Gracious that was fun, do it again :3


Old People Thoughts; Radio 4/The Archers, Question Time, Hot Chocolate, Hot Water Bottles and Werther's Originals.
Lols~
When I'm old, Hot Chocolate is definitely on my list. Assuming it wouldn't kill me for some reason.

Yitzi
2013-01-09, 11:17 AM
The first rule of immortality agelessness is 'You will die'. Sheer iterated probability means that any mortal being's chance of surviving infinitely is mathematically equal to zero.

You will die eventually, but if you can be resurrected afterward then that's not such a big deal. The point about death through old age is that it prevents resurrection.

Grelna the Blue
2013-01-09, 12:04 PM
I've read through the thread. I don't buy the effect of mental stats changing back to Young Adult baseline, but then I also don't buy the official rules that mental stats increase with age either, so that's kind of a wash.

My take is that such a ring is fine, if a GM wants to go to the trouble of extrapolating the societal effects.

If rich people never died of old age, fortunes would seldom change hands or be split up. Upward mobility would be severely retarded--there simply wouldn't be room at the top. The children of the wealthy would be resentful hangers-on. The grandchildren would be nonentities.

The poor and middle class would labor mightily to earn the privilege of using such a ring once, a privilege that would be doled out charily.

As a class, the rich would become decadent. With all the time in the world and few worries about the afterlife, it could hardly be otherwise. Certainly their emotional connection to the shorter lived underclass would become even more tenuous and remote.

Some races are already longlived and the effects on them would be lesser. For instance, elves, whose attitudes are strongly shaped by their longevity. They are, however, in a sense born to it. Humans are not. Their society would not merely be shaped. It would be warped.

However, none of this is meant to say such items should not be allowed in a game. Warped societies make for entertaining roleplay and stories. But if it is allowed, it would break verisimilitude if it did not have profound effects upon the gameworld.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-09, 12:29 PM
I've read through the thread. I don't buy the effect of mental stats changing back to Young Adult baseline, but then I also don't buy the official rules that that mental stats increase with age either, so that's kind of a wash.

I don't really like the games dictated aging effects either. A while back I had a thread where I proposed that all stats suffer equally from aging, and in exchange each age bracket gets an additional level or HD. Essentially, more experience ballances out lesser baseline abilities.


If rich people never died of old age, fortunes would seldom change hands or be split up. Upward mobility would be severely retarded--there simply wouldn't be room at the top. The children of the wealthy would be resentful hangers-on. The grandchildren would be nonentities.

*snip*

Or you'd end up with a dire political situation where everyone who isn't head of the family is deperately trying to force a change in power via "accidental" death, or something like that. Which actually makes for a fairly interesting premise, since nearly EVERY death would imply murder or the like.


However, none of this is meant to say such items should not be allowed in a game. Warped societies make for entertaining roleplay and stories. But if it is allowed, it would breaks verisimilitude if it did not have profound effects upon the gameworld.

I recall reading one article on why having certain superpowers sucks, and their conclusion with immortality is that it eventually drives people insane. Again, this could be a great premise for a campaign in which the PC's are either part of this circle of madness or fighting against it.

Sacrieur
2013-01-09, 12:32 PM
For a few to be immortal many must die.

DracoDei
2013-01-18, 01:23 AM
I was intrigued by this thread a while back.I meant to respond to it at the time, but it slipped through my poor organizational skills.

I have to rush off to bed, so I can't catch up before i say this, but:
Stopping aging in RAW D&D is as easy as finding 20 or so other people you REALLY like and going in together on a Rod of Security (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#security).

Every week the paradise collapses, and you appear at the secure location in the real world where you open the gateway. Someone re-activates the rod, while someone else drops the crate of outgoing mail on the floor, and a third person grabs the crate of incoming mail. Everyone files back into the extradimensional paradise.

One item, no tricky readings of rules, only a little creative problem solving.

Now, granted, these are some pretty limited social contacts, but...

Yitzi
2013-01-18, 11:39 AM
I was intrigued by this thread a while back.I meant to respond to it at the time, but it slipped through my poor organizational skills.

I have to rush off to bed, so I can't catch up before i say this, but:
Stopping aging in RAW D&D is as easy as finding 20 or so other people you REALLY like and going in together on a Rod of Security (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#security).

Every week the paradise collapses, and you appear at the secure location in the real world where you open the gateway. Someone re-activates the rod, while someone else drops the crate of outgoing mail on the floor, and a third person grabs the crate of incoming mail. Everyone files back into the extradimensional paradise.

One item, no tricky readings of rules, only a little creative problem solving.

Now, granted, these are some pretty limited social contacts, but...

And it doesn't let you participate in the wider world while not-aging.

DracoDei
2013-01-18, 09:12 PM
And it doesn't let you participate in the wider world while not-aging.
Only by mail, yes. I tried to cover that under "limited social contacts".

Still, it is a "competing product" which would at least slightly drive down the price people would be willing to pay for the ring.

I was just throwing it out there for whatever it was worth.