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View Full Version : Rod of Wizadry [3.5 magic item] (need help pricing)



qwertyu63
2013-01-12, 05:28 PM
Title says it all.

The Rod of Wizardry is a powerful magical rod. It has a wide array of powers it can cause, allowing the holder to act as a caster without using their spell slots, or even needing them. If used as a weapon, the rod is equivalent to a +1 club.

In addition to its use as a weapon, the rod has a large number of magic powers to use. To use these powers, you must have the ability to cast spells (arcane or divine both work) or at least 3 ranks in Use Magic Device (no check is required). Each power is a standard action, unless noted.

All of these powers can be used at will.
-Can throw an orb of acid as a ranged touch attack. The attack has a range of 15 feet and deals 3d6 damage.
-Can summon a Medium Elemental (air, earth, fire, or water; your choice) within a range of 30 feet. The duration of the summoning is 4 rounds, and you can only have one at a time.
-Can detect magic auras out to 15 feet, as detect magic (starting this power is a free action, and it lasts for 5 minutes).
-Can heal 6 points of damage from target, but only up to half maximum.
-Can teleport self and up to a heavy load 20 feet (must be able to see target).
-Can teleport unattended objects (6 pounds or less) from up to 15 feet away to your hand.
-Can grant target +3 armor bonus until the start of your next turn.
-Can disrupt another spell being cast (this power is an immediate action), reducing caster level and save DC by 4 (DC 20 Concentration check avoids).
-Can alter apperance as disguise self, with a duration of 3 minutes.
-Can fly up to 30 feet (perfect maneuverability). You must start and end solidly supported, or you fall. (this power is a move action)
-Can cast Unseen Servant, with a duration of 5 minutes.
-Can detect which way is north, along with the time to the minute.
-Can create one gallon of pure water.
-Can grant target +1 competence bonus on a single attack roll, saving throw, or skill check made in the next round.
-Can skim up to 150 pages of text. You will have a summary of the the text, in the form of a short paragraph, in your head.
-Can slow target, reducing their initiative by 3.
-Can create tiny and immobile image (1 square foot, duration 1 minute). The only sense effected is sight.
-Can grant target a 5 foot increase to its base land speed for 2 rounds.
-Can detect targets remaining hit points.
-Can cast Prestidigitation, with a duration of 5 minutes.
-Can cause the tip of the staff to glow, clearly lighting out to 30 feet, and providing shadowy light out to 60 feet (Lasts 5 minutes).
-Can produce any sound that could be made by 2 humans, lasting for 1 minute.
-Can alter target handful of food (grain, berries, nuts, etc.), causing it to be a day's food for a medium or smaller creature.
-Can allow the holder to speak the basics of another language, allowing you to to ask and understand simple questions, explanations, and instructions (starting this power is a free action, and it lasts for 5 minutes).
-Can send a 10 word message to any creature on the same plane, who can give a 5 word response.

bobthe6th
2013-01-12, 05:41 PM
well... I got nothing. It is a very out of combat item, but it has a silly amount of things it can do with no charges. Also it is easy to use...

I would have to guess more then anyone has when it would be useful(like level 4 or 5)...

Cipher Stars
2013-01-12, 08:09 PM
Kinda sounds like some sort of minor artifact.


I like it.

SamBurke
2013-01-12, 08:17 PM
That, sir, is not a "staff of Wizardry." That staff IS a Wizard.





In all seriousness, though... it has a flipping lot of abilities. Granted, most of them are cantrip-power, but still. Since it's an at-will ability... Dawg. Dawg. For comparison, the average cantrip is worth 3k to be permanently at-will enchanted onto an object. If I remember correctly, all additional abilities cost 1.5x what they normally would.

At LEAST 50k GP?

What's the use, though? Is it a MacGuffin? Will it be in the marketplace? Is it the villain's? You may not need a cost.

Zale
2013-01-12, 08:23 PM
How many Wizards would give their right arms for this?

Hell, I'd happily sacrifice a right arm for this.

bobthe6th
2013-01-12, 08:37 PM
I mean... it is like getting 25 reserve feats at once...

qwertyu63
2013-01-12, 10:03 PM
That, sir, is not a "staff of Wizardry." That staff IS a Wizard.

Thank you for making me laugh with that line.


In all seriousness, though... it has a flipping lot of abilities. Granted, most of them are cantrip-power, but still. Since it's an at-will ability... Dawg. Dawg. For comparison, the average cantrip is worth 3k to be permanently at-will enchanted onto an object. If I remember correctly, all additional abilities cost 1.5x what they normally would.

At LEAST 50k GP?

I was thinking northward of 50k myself, but quick question. Where did you the figure for "the average cantrip is worth 3k to be..."? The only source I can find for pricing items (the Creating Magic Items guidelines in the SRD) would put that a bit lower (around 1,000 if I did the math right.) I could be horribly wrong on that though.



What's the use, though? Is it a MacGuffin? Will it be in the marketplace? Is it the villain's? You may not need a cost.

I intend to put it in the hands of a villain, but I want to know a price for 2 reasons.
1: I try to stick my players near WBL, and I need to know how much of that this would be.
2: If it goes well, it might wind up in a market in another game, with a thick "how to use" manual in a language none of the players took, and I would need a price then.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-12, 10:16 PM
1: I try to stick my players near WBL, and I need to know how much of that this would be.

Never saw the point in that myself.


2: If it goes well, it might wind up in a market in another game, with a thick "how to use" manual in a language none of the players took, and I would need a price then.

I'd probably say 75,000 if I had to. People kept complaining my Timeless Ring should be around 90,000 to 300,000-400,000 when all it does is make you ageless.
Sooooooo
To oblivion with mechanics.
You've got 25 effects of an effective spell level of 0-3ish. So just go 25,000x4 for 100,000. Surely that sounds reasonable.

Eurus
2013-01-12, 10:25 PM
To be honest, I'd say 50k at the most, and pricing it lower (30-40k) wouldn't exactly break things. But I'm in the minority here, so I might be totally wrong, heh.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-12, 10:33 PM
To be honest, I'd say 50k at the most, and pricing it lower (30-40k) wouldn't exactly break things. But I'm in the minority here, so I might be totally wrong, heh.

I'm entirely in favor of nice things for less cost.

Eurus
2013-01-12, 10:37 PM
Yeah. It's nice, it's fun, and I'd probably even use it (on a rogue/factotum more likely than an actual wizard, heh) -- but if it's too expensive, then it's just too painful to "waste" the money on.

qwertyu63
2013-01-12, 10:51 PM
Never saw the point in that myself.


I'd probably say 75,000 if I had to. People kept complaining my Timeless Ring should be around 90,000 to 300,000-400,000 when all it does is make you ageless.
Sooooooo
To oblivion with mechanics.
You've got 25 effects of an effective spell level of 0-3ish. So just go 25,000x4 for 100,000. Surely that sounds reasonable.

Ah, yes that ring. I remember reading that thread. Nice idea with the ring, BTW. My characters would buy it.

BTW, where did "25,000x4" come from?


To be honest, I'd say 50k at the most, and pricing it lower (30-40k) wouldn't exactly break things. But I'm in the minority here, so I might be totally wrong, heh.

I kinda see what you are saying in this and your next post (which I won't quote to save space). So around 40k then.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-12, 11:14 PM
BTW, where did "25,000x4" come from?

To cover differences in spell level and potential prices (Since they seem to be around 0-3 as I said), and the rest to bribe the guards.

Debihuman
2013-01-13, 06:16 AM
This is an ungodly mess. First, a magic staff has to be a quarterstaff, it shouldn't be a +1 club in the first place.

The cost of a +1 quarterstaff is 2,600 gp,

Each spell is at will costs 2,000 gp x caster level x spell level with 0 level spells costing 1/2 the price of a 1st level spell. Honestly the SRD and DMG tell you exactly how to price magic item. It's not rocket science. Even with my math dyslexia I can figure it out. I just can't do it quickly.

This item has other problems. For example, the orb of acid should be based on acid splash (which would do 1d3 points of damage not 1d6).

If you really want our help, then you should be so kind as to edit your item so that you know every spell you use to create it and the caster level. That's pretty basic.

I'd say this is a MAJOR ARTIFACT as it does more than a Staff of the Magi.

Debby

qwertyu63
2013-01-13, 08:49 AM
This is an ungodly mess. First, a magic staff has to be a quarterstaff, it shouldn't be a +1 club in the first place.

If this were the size of a staff, you would be right. But it's not. I'm using the word staff because it looks like kind of like a staff. It's too big to be a wand, but not big enough to be a quarterstaff, so I though a club fit nicely as something to base its battle stats on.


The cost of a +1 quarterstaff is 2,600 gp,

Due to above, unneeded.


Each spell is at will costs 2,000 gp x caster level x spell level with 0 level spells costing 1/2 the price of a 1st level spell. Honestly the SRD and DMG tell you exactly how to price magic item. It's not rocket science. Even with my math dyslexia I can figure it out. I just can't do it quickly.

I knew that. The issue is that a large chunk of these abilities aren't based on any spell already in the game, as I skimmed other sources (Pathfinder spells, my brain, Reserve feats).


This item has other problems. For example, the orb of acid should be based on acid splash (which would do 1d3 points of damage not 1d6).

Good thing it is is based on the reserve feat Acidic Splatter instead.


If you really want our help, then you should be so kind as to edit your item so that you know every spell you use to create it and the caster level. That's pretty basic.

:smalleek: With my arrangement of sources, not so basic. Not to mention some of these are higher level spells scaled back so they are useful with out being too crazy.


I'd say this is a MAJOR ARTIFACT as it does more than a Staff of the Magi.

Debby

Uh... I'm not sure how to take that one. Comparing the Staff of the Magi (Minor Artifact, 19 spells ranging from cantrips to 9th level and grants SR and spell absorption) to the Staff of Wizadry (25 powers floating around the power level of spell levels 0-3 [personally I'd say 0-2, but I'll go with it]). Are you saying the latter is stronger.

JoshuaZ
2013-01-13, 09:49 AM
I knew that. The issue is that a large chunk of these abilities aren't based on any spell already in the game, as I skimmed other sources (Pathfinder spells, my brain, Reserve feats).

Well, one nice thing about using standard versions of things is that they have specific cost rules and are much easier to price. In general, most of these abilities either loo functionally identical to a low level spell, or look slightly weaker than one. One can probably go through each ability and estimate it as being close to a specific spell and just use that. This will likely lead to some overestimates and some underestimates and they'll probably balance out. For example, while the acid ability is a little stronger than acid splash the message ability is a little weaker than sending.

However, one thing that is needed is a specific caster level, which is important for how abilities interact with things like spell resistance and the like.


. I'm not sure how to take that one. Comparing the Staff of the Magi (Minor Artifact, 19 spells ranging from cantrips to 9th level and grants SR and spell absorption) to the Staff of Wizadry (25 powers floating around the power level of spell levels 0-3 [personally I'd say 0-2, but I'll go with it]). Are you saying the latter is stronger.


Strength isn't the only issue- usefulness is. This thing does a lot of different stuff, and flexibility is extremely useful in a single object. That said, I agree this is strictly weaker than the Staff. But the sheer number of abilities does possibly push it into artifact territory. If you think it shouldn't be there, then making a list of prereqs to make it may be helpful for estimating its relative power level and hence cost.

Yuki Akuma
2013-01-13, 09:54 AM
If this were the size of a staff, you would be right. But it's not. I'm using the word staff because it looks like kind of like a staff. It's too big to be a wand, but not big enough to be a quarterstaff, so I though a club fit nicely as something to base its battle stats on.

Then call it a rod.

qwertyu63
2013-01-13, 10:12 AM
Well, one nice thing about using standard versions of things is that they have specific cost rules and are much easier to price. In general, most of these abilities either loo functionally identical to a low level spell, or look slightly weaker than one. One can probably go through each ability and estimate it as being close to a specific spell and just use that. This will likely lead to some overestimates and some underestimates and they'll probably balance out. For example, while the acid ability is a little stronger than acid splash the message ability is a little weaker than sending.

However, one thing that is needed is a specific caster level, which is important for how abilities interact with things like spell resistance and the like.

Well the caster level will be the lowest this thing can get away with, so the lowest level that can get the spells.


Strength isn't the only issue- usefulness is. This thing does a lot of different stuff, and flexibility is extremely useful in a single object. That said, I agree this is strictly weaker than the Staff. But the sheer number of abilities does possibly push it into artifact territory. If you think it shouldn't be there, then making a list of prereqs to make it may be helpful for estimating its relative power level and hence cost.

Ah, flexibility is an issue.

I'll get started making that list. I may have to look hard, as some are based on Pathfinder spells.

EDIT: This is the list as I have it now. Spells marked with "**" are Pathfinder spells that don't exist in 3.5. Levels are noted after the spell name.

Acid Splash 0
Summon Monster V 5
Detect Magic 0
Cure Light Wounds 1
Dimension Door 4
Dimension Door 4
Mage Armor 1
Dispel Magic 3
Disguise Self 1
Fly 3
Unseen Servant 1
Know Direction 0
Create Water 0
Guidance 0
**Summarize 0
**Pause 0
**Trifling Image 0
Expeditious Retreat 1
**Discern Health 0
Prestidigitation 0
Light 0
Ghost Sound 0
**Abstemiousness 1
Comprehend Languages 1
Sending 5

The highest spell level here is 5. The lowest is 0. The average level is 1.24 (counting level 0 as level 0.5 produces an average of 1.48). Dimension Door is the spell behind 2 different effects, and is therefore counted twice in these numbers. This makes the minimum caster level 9 (as that is the level wizards get 5th level spells).


Then call it a rod.

*facepalm* How did I not think of that? Thank you.

Debihuman
2013-01-13, 11:00 AM
Pathfinder spells are mostly compatible with 3.5 so just use the spell as is. We can look up all the Pathfinder spells online here:http://www.d20pfsrd.com for reference.

FYI a wand can only cast 1 spell not several so there is no way this item would be a wand. I think Rod works better as a club but that only saves 300 gp.

+1 club is still 2,300 gp and then you have to factor in all the other costs.

Cost for each spell is 2000x Caster Level X spell level. The earliest that you can cast 5th level spells is 9th level so your caster level is 9 for those spells. Conversely your caster level is 1 for you 0 level spells A level 1 spell costs 2000x1x1 and a 0 level spell costs 1/2 of 1st level spell.

You'll have to look at the Pricing chart to get other prices. The price of an AC bonus is Bonus squared 2,500 gp for example. 3 x 3 x 2,500 = 22,500 gp for that.

Debby

qwertyu63
2013-01-13, 11:08 AM
Pathfinder spells are mostly compatible with 3.5 so just use the spell as is. We can look up all the Pathfinder spells online here:http://www.d20pfsrd.com for reference.

FYI a wand can only cast 1 spell not several so there is no way this item would be a wand. I think Rod works better as a club but that only saves 300 gp.

+1 club is still 2,300 gp and then you have to factor in all the other costs.

Debby

I've been using that site for those spells anyway, and will be using the spells as is.

I was just using the word wand as an indicator of size, not as the magic item type. Rod is just a name too, and the character using it is likely still going to call it a staff as that sounds better, but that is a matter of fluff.

Debihuman
2013-01-13, 11:21 AM
Well your "fluff" shouldn't violate the RAW. A magic staff is always a quarterstaff. A magic wand can only cast one spell. Once you start messing with that stuff, nobody can help you. Your price will always be wrong.

Since this is a specific item for your specific campaign, why does cost even matter? In a world where economics don't matter, feel free to go hog wild. Just don't let the rules get in your way. However, if you want an item that other gamers can use, then you have to make it work under the standard rules. That's the difference be between a houseruled item and homebrewed item. I can't help with houseruled items.

Debby

qwertyu63
2013-01-13, 11:27 AM
Well your "fluff" shouldn't violate the RAW. A magic staff is always a quarterstaff. A magic wand can only cast one spell. Once you start messing with that stuff, nobody can help you. Your price will always be wrong.

Debby

I was saying that while in game terms it might be a rod, the characters will be calling it a staff. Crunch-wise, it is still a rod. A rose by any other name...

Debihuman
2013-01-13, 11:35 AM
If you work in a flower shop and call a rose by another name, your co-workers and customers will think you are the dumbest florist on the planet. The hazard of unforeseen consequences.

Now, Let's be clear: I do not think either you or your item are in any way "dumb." In fact I rather like your item or I wouldn't have bothered responding in the first place.

However, you wanted help pricing your item. I am merely showing what the pratfalls in doing so are. The choice is yours. I'm willing to help but I'm not going to rewrite rules for you.

Get the pricing as the spell for the appropriate level then you can subtract 30% to 50% off that cost for the weakened versions. That should be fairly reasonable but without a final tally, there's no way to estimate the final cost.


Debby

qwertyu63
2013-01-13, 11:45 AM
If you work in a flower shop and call a rose by another name, your co-workers and customers will think you are the dumbest florist on the planet. The hazard of unforeseen consequences.

Now, Let's be clear: I do not think either you or your item are in any way "dumb." In fact I rather like your item or I wouldn't have bothered responding in the first place.

However, you wanted help pricing your item. I am merely showing what the pratfalls in doing so are. The choice is yours. I'm willing to help but I'm not going to rewrite rules for you.

Debby

Ah, first off, that is one of the funniest responses to my phrase I've ever heard.

Second, nowhere did I ask for any rules to be changed. For all intents and purposes, this is a wooden rod that just happens to have an odd name.

Third, I really do appreciate the help. Sorry if I am coming off a bit rude.

EDIT: Doing some math now.

EDIT 2: Alright, doing the math about the powers has produced a cost of 569,300 gp, treating all of the abilities as the spell I am using as their base (I intend to do more later, but posting what I have). As all of the spells are on what is a weapon, I applied the *1.5 to all of them. I then added the price of the weapon, getting to the 569,300 gp mentioned before.

Debihuman
2013-01-13, 12:21 PM
The most expensive spell you have will cost 9x5x2000 = 90,000 gp and the least expensive spell will cost 1,000 gp; as a +1 club you add 2,300 gp and for the AC bonus you add 22,500 gp

Let's say on average you have 9 spells worth 45,000 gp apiece (an average between high and low costs here so I'm just guestimating the cost; actual cost might be less)

45,000x9 = 405,000 gp + 2,300 + 22,500 for a item that starts at 429,800 gp then you subtract 30%. 429,800 - 128,940 = 300,860 and to make it easy let's round it off to a clean 300,000 gp. It's expensive but with this rod you can cast one of those 9 spells at will each round so yeah, I think it's reasonable.

[Edit] 539,300 gp is not an unreasonable cost for sheer number of spells can throw around, for +3 AC and for an +1 magic weapon. It's expensive but it has a LOT on it.

Debby

genericwit
2013-01-13, 05:56 PM
Not sure how to price it, but this item seems ludicrously powerful. In fact, it has a few no-save debuffs [albeit minor], and offers a broad array of abilities. In terms of out of combat options alone, possessing this could easily turn tier 4/5 classes up a tier alone.

Maybe limiting some spells to three or less; for example, the compass ability could stay unlimited, but the food/water abilities should be once per day, and the debuffs/combat abilities could be 3/day. Just a thought.

But think of some of the abuse. For example: Stand outside bank vault, teleport coins/bars/expensive six pound items into your hand immediately [as there's no sight requirement, and they're typically unattended]. Repeat until bank vault is empty of items weighing less than 6 lbs. Replace bank vault with noble's mansion/local magic mart.

However, most of the options aren't game-breaking, but the item itself would be too expensive for any character to have at the level they could acquire it. By the time you could afford it, it wouldn't be game breaking, just give you access to a bunch of low-level spell effects. At around levels 5 to 8, it would be ridiculously powerful, and begin using power [though not necessarily utility] as levels progressed.