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Deepbluediver
2013-01-13, 08:47 PM
I don't like untyped damage. I like having some idea of what exactly is happening to a target, and if some one has managed to make themselves immortal because energy resistance and damage reduction get handed out like candy then going "oh yeah we'll just ignore all that" is NOT a good method to un-bork things.
The closest thing to an untyped damage source I like to see is force damage, which I tend to picture as raw, unshaped arcane energy.

[/end rant]


So moving on to the point of my post, I'm trying to tweek how some of the energy types function, and come up with a few replacements or alternate options for some of the more common sources of "untyped damage.

Since it was reading this nice Warlock handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265455), we'll start there.

The Warlock gets his power from his demonic/devilish heritage (or fey I guess), and the primary source of untyped damage is obviously Eldritch Blast. So I decided to try and figure out what sort of energy types would be the most cliched best represent the legions of hell, and I quickly decided on Acid/Fire/Negative energy.

Basically the way this works is the Warlock's eldritch blast is a combination of all these energy types, and if the target is vulnerable to any of them, he takes full damage. If you have resistance to an or all of the types of energy, damage is only reduced by the type of reistance you have the least of.
This sort of does away with the need for the Brimstone Blast invocation, but it gives more use to things like Hellrime Blast (which can now replace the fire part of the damage with cold for those "when hell freezes over!" witty one liners).

If there is an official published version of a class with a good-outsider based equivalent to eldritch blast, I'm unaware of it. But in the interest of fairness I wanted to come up with a "celestial" energy as well, and since we're thinking about the opposite of the underworld here, the obvious choice is Cold/Electric/Positive energy.

"But wait!" I can hear you saying, "positive energy heals things!". To which I will reply, "let's get back to this in a second".

For people who want to play a fey-themed warlock, I think we need some sort of "nature" type of damage as well. For my first idea, I put forth "nature" damage as Acid/Electric/Force, which to me seems pretty nuetral.
♫knee deep in electric slime doop a doop a doop♫

Anywho, back to positive energy as damage. I've never been entirely satisfied with the description of positive and negative energy. It's just energy afterall, it needs a sentient mind to guide it. In fact, the plane of positive energy can kill you pretty quick via basically overloading you with healing. So I would like to give them more opportunities to deal damage.
Positive energy can now deal damage to living creatures, at the caster's discretion, although it only does half as much damage as normal, meaning in most cases it's strictly worse than anything else.
By the same token, negative energy can speed up the decay and entropy of the undead, dealing half as much damage as it would normally heal for them.


To conclude, I realize that strictly speaking any combination of energy types is worse than untyped, but it was not my goal to make the Warlock (or any class) more or less powerful. My overall goal is just to do away with untyped damage as much as possible. If you have any other sources of untyped damage you want to bring up for discussion, please do so. I'll post any other ideas I have here as well.

ngilop
2013-01-13, 09:12 PM
call me underly complex on this

but wouldn;t just maing it do unholy for demon/devil types and holy for celestial types be easier than trying to come up with half a dozen combination energy types type just be worlds simpler?

Deepbluediver
2013-01-13, 09:24 PM
call me underly complex on this
Don't worry about it; as ideas go, I admit this one is pretty far out of left field


but wouldn't just making it do unholy for demon/devil types and holy for celestial types be easier than trying to come up with a half a dozen combination energy types and just be worlds simpler?

Let me reply with another question: what exactly IS holy/unholy damage? And how is it different from just positive/negative energy damage?

If the only change is in the name, I might as well call them "squeedlyspoosh" and "nickertop" for all the difference it makes. It would just be one more type of very same-y, very bland energy floating around. The driving idea behind composing combinations for fel and celestial energy is that you can picture and understand what it is.
I think it's actually less complicated than it sounds, because all the damage is determined by whatever the type you resist the least of.


So to answer you: Simpler? Yes. But less fun, I think.

ngilop
2013-01-13, 09:42 PM
well holy energy is celestial energy

whilst unholy energy is 'fel' or feindish energy.

really all you are doign is going about renaming holy/unholy into celestial/fel and then saying that instead of it being an energy that is in one case GOOD energy and EVIl energy in another

your mummblimg together several energy types and saying ' yeah negative, acid and fire sound evil and demonic' for instance.

its just what you are looking for already exists in D&D. I am just trying tog etr at the reason you feel that is nowhere near adequate enough for your tastes?

Deepbluediver
2013-01-13, 10:21 PM
well holy energy is celestial energy

whilst unholy energy is 'fel' or feindish energy.

really all you are doign is going about renaming holy/unholy into celestial/fel and then saying that instead of it being an energy that is in one case GOOD energy and EVIl energy in another

your mummblimg together several energy types and saying ' yeah negative, acid and fire sound evil and demonic' for instance.

its just what you are looking for already exists in D&D. I am just trying tog etr at the reason you feel that is nowhere near adequate enough for your tastes?

My problem is that I can't picture just what it is the "evil" energy looks like, or what it does. The best I can get is something that looks like a funny-colored flashlight beam, and the target going "AAARGH! The Evil! It burns!"
It's all very corny, sort of like Batman circa Adam West.

How and why, exactly, does "evil" or "good" energy deal damage? It could see it making a good person, like a paladin, physically sick; or it might alter a weak willed person's alignment. But how does it actually KILL you? Particularly if you are already evil or good?

Basically what I'm trying to do is put a face on the existing types of damage, so that I can say "oh, I see what you did there". Anything that is "untyped" damage sounds to me like WotC is saying "this deals X damage and DON'T QUESTION IT", which of course makes me do the exact opposite.
If I say that fel energy is a combination of acid, fire, and death-magic then you can tell it's nasty right off the bat (not that getting hit with a blast of frozen lighting is a lot of fun either).


On another note: does D&D already have energy types listed for "holy" or "unholy"? And in what sourcebooks do they show up?
I wasn't certain and I couldn't find anything with a quick search. (if anyone can provide a link or a list of all the energy and/or damage types in D&D I'd be grateful)

bobthe6th
2013-01-13, 10:30 PM
they have divine sourced energy.

ngilop
2013-01-13, 10:35 PM
Holy and unholy are in the DMG.

and supporting bobthe6ths divine energy ist broken up into 2 seperate sources

good divine = sacred

evil divine = profane

holy damage doesn't hurt good and vice versa for unholy damage.

I have alwasy imagined it as a beam or whatever of PURE unadultered good smashes into something and if its evil puts the smack down yo!

like GHostrider and his penance stare.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-13, 10:51 PM
Holy and unholy are in the DMG.

and supporting bobthe6ths divine energy ist broken up into 2 seperate sources

good divine = sacred

evil divine = profane

holy damage doesn't hurt good and vice versa for unholy damage.

I have alwasy imagined it as a beam or whatever of PURE unadultered good smashes into something and if its evil puts the smack down yo!

like GHostrider and his penance stare.

Time to dig out my DMG then.

I know about sacred and profane bonuses, but are they actually DAMAGE types?
And I'm not convinced that some sort of care-bear-stare/justice-beam is a better path to take. Like I said, there are listed mechanical effects for positive and negative energy, and I can understand how really powerful emotions might effect some one mentally or make them feel ill, but I can't really wrap my brain around good/evil have the physical effect of KILLING you.


Also, Nicholas Cage is not helping the situation :smalltongue:

Also also, people have started responding to my other damage-type thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267700).
Apparently there are things like Desication, Scalding, Radiant, and *sigh* City damage.

Most of these I have fewer problems with because they are more descriptive of what is happening, and also fairly rare.

ngilop
2013-01-13, 11:06 PM
I think you issue here is your trying to understand D&D physics from a real world point of view.

remmebr here in the real world there isn;t actual good or evil as D&D defines it.

in D&D it is a real and tangible thing. while in the real world what one person says is evil the next person says is good and vice versa.



in D&D evil is what makes an evil eing and the opposite for good.

to me in D&D an evil person is getting hit with something that is the anathema of their entirety and basically unmakig who they are.

Everythign in D&D is really an abrstract and you have to be able to think WAAY outside the box in wied obtruse directions to get at some things, some poeple have their own hook ups ( for me it was that orb of force was SR: no, becuase its a non-magicla orb of MAGICAL force..) I just shrug and deal with it, becuase rather than make my brain explode I just let this one slide.

maybe you might think about doing such a thing for how pure good can hurt evil and pure evil hurting good


also I forget teh name of it but there is a medical conditn thaty you cna remember old wouds/treatment and BAM!!!! your midn forces your body to relive those.. the only specific example i cna think of right now was the lady who was tied to a chai and whipped repadtedly as a child untill being rescuded and even as an adult in a hopsital whip lashes would open up on her body and markings of being tied would form on her wrists and ankles.

Kane0
2013-01-13, 11:27 PM
The damage types I use for 3.U are:
Positive
Negative
Magic (replaces most untyped)
Divine (in most cases split into Good, Evil, Law and Chaos, but this one rarely comes up)
Force
Electricity
Fire
Cold
Acid
Slashing
Piercing
Bludgeoning

I think i'm missing one or two, but yeah.
[Damage] resistance X reduces damage of the damage type by X
Damage reduction Y/z reduces all damage taken by Y except for Z, where - is nothing.
So its more or less the same, but you can pick up some Damage Resistance Magic or SR to reduce incoming Warlock Blasts and such.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-13, 11:40 PM
I think you issue here is your trying to understand D&D physics from a real world point of view.

remmebr here in the real world there isn;t actual good or evil as D&D defines it.

in D&D it is a real and tangible thing. while in the real world what one person says is evil the next person says is good and vice versa.



in D&D evil is what makes an evil eing and the opposite for good.

to me in D&D an evil person is getting hit with something that is the anathema of their entirety and basically unmakig who they are.

Everythign in D&D is really an abrstract and you have to be able to think WAAY outside the box in wied obtruse directions to get at some things, some poeple have their own hook ups ( for me it was that orb of force was SR: no, becuase its a non-magicla orb of MAGICAL force..) I just shrug and deal with it, becuase rather than make my brain explode I just let this one slide.

maybe you might think about doing such a thing for how pure good can hurt evil and pure evil hurting good

This is all true, but as some one once pointed out to me, since the players are set in the real world, the game works best when things do not entirely break our suspension of disbelief.

I can imagine how an attack based on good or evil might harm a diety or powerful outsider, since they embody concepts rather than being composed of matter, but alignment for humanoids and other living creatures is a complicated thing. And like I said, what initially prompted this was my distaste for untyped damage, particularly from a class with a lot of flavor built in. Frankly, I'd favor a good/evil energy attack over an "untyped" one.

I will consider ways to keep the Holy/Unholy modifiers attached to my new damage types, but in the meantime, if I made the switch, what sorts of problems do you think might come up?

ngilop
2013-01-13, 11:56 PM
I am not sure I cna offer you any advice at all in this aspect

I have already shown you that D&D has good damage and evil damage

and becuase you want real world physics you are chosing to pretend it don't exist

the only issues I am seeign that is going to happen with you rtrying to use real world physics is well. honestly ther list is going to be so long and detailed that id rather not even start.

anyways I hope you the best in your game.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-14, 12:28 AM
I have already shown you that D&D has good damage and evil damage

and becuase you want real world physics you are chosing to pretend it don't exist

the only issues I am seeign that is going to happen with you rtrying to use real world physics is well. honestly ther list is going to be so long and detailed that id rather not even start.

I think that's a little bit of an exageration. :smallconfused:

All I said was that it seemed odd to me that concentrated beams of good or evil would have a physically harmful effect on your average humanoid, and that flavoring damage like that seemed bland and boring (and confusing).
I already admitted good/evil damage would make more sense if you where talking about deities or outsiders, who embody certain alignments, but most humanoids don't even show up to a Detect Evil spell, so how the heck could a blast of "good" energy hurt them? At most I just said I didn't like the idea.

Also, going back to my original example, Warlock damage is neither good nor evil, it is in fact untyped. And so I was suggesting we replace that "untyped" damage and other similar untyped sources with Acid/Fire/Negative Energy, or Acid/Fire/Unholy, I guess.

ngilop
2013-01-14, 12:41 AM
Its more of a vast under exaggeration

saying that holy and unholy damage don't work means that now you have to undo prot: X alignment

smite X alignment stops workings

detect X alignment stops working

ALignment Word stops working

Aignment AUra stops working

and reallty teh very foundation of D&D , becuase as I said previosuly Unilke our actual real world ALignment is a a tangible and extremely intregral part of the D&D universe existance.

while somebody that is evil not being hurt by good might not make any sense from your point fo a rel world view. in D&D its honestly the base function of the entire multiverse.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-14, 12:44 AM
Its more of a vast under exaggeration

saying that holy and unholy damage don't work means that now you have to undo prot: X alignment

smite X alignment stops workings

detect X alignment stops working

ALignment Word stops working

Aignment AUra stops working

and reallty teh very foundation of D&D , becuase as I said previosuly Unilke our actual real world ALignment is a a tangible and extremely intregral part of the D&D universe existance.

while somebody that is evil not being hurt by good might not make any sense from your point fo a rel world view. in D&D its honestly the base function of the entire multiverse.

Ok, WHOA. Slow down there.

I NEVER said that alignment doesn't or shouldn't exist, or that creatures can't have an alignment. I really want to know where you came up with that from.

The only thing I actually objected to was saying that a specific attack was good or evil energy AND that it could cause enough physical harm to kill a non-outsider.

nonsi
2013-01-14, 01:46 AM
This is all true, but as some one once pointed out to me, since the players are set in the real world, the game works best when things do not entirely break our suspension of disbelief.


Been trying to tell that to Grod_The_Giant - he didn't bite (oh well, to each his own).


Anyway, to sum things up . . .
- Evil (demonic heritage): Acid/Fire/Negative energy
- Good (celestial heritage): Cold/Electric/Positive energy
- Chaotic (fey heritage): Acid/Electric/Force

I like it a lot.
What combination would you use for Infernal (lawful) heritage ?
maybe Cold/Electricity/Sonic ?


Anyway, instead of requiring immunity to overcome and getting knee deep in calculations, make it so that a warlock can apply one or two types of his choice, but not all three.
This will:
1. Not entirely break the suspension of disbelief even for those of us with an even lower threshold.
2. Simplify calculations.
3. Put in the element of combat tactics.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-14, 09:27 AM
On a side note, if what I'm reading the DMG and other sources correctly, Holy and Unholy aren't actually damage types; it's mostly just applied to untyped damage that then won't injure good/evil creatures. So while it's an attractive idea, I think I might stick with the Negative/Positive energy for the moment, because this is complicated enough already.



Anyway, to sum things up . . .
- Evil (demonic heritage): Acid/Fire/Negative energy
- Good (celestial heritage): Cold/Electric/Positive energy
- Chaotic (fey heritage): Acid/Electric/Force

I like it a lot.
What combination would you use for Infernal (lawful) heritage ?
maybe Cold/Electricity/Sonic ?

I was originally thinking that demons and devils would have the first combination, but if I had to differentiate I'd probably make the other Fel-energy combination Cold/Acid/Negative energy.

That way the two are similar, but you still have:
Hot Hell= Chaos/Fire
Cold Hell= Order/Ice



Anyway, instead of requiring immunity to overcome and getting knee deep in calculations, make it so that a warlock can apply one or two types of his choice, but not all three.
This will:
1. Not entirely break the suspension of disbelief even for those of us with an even lower threshold.
2. Simplify calculations.
3. Put in the element of combat tactics.

Hmm....I'll have to think some more about how this can be applied, but overall I think it actually just sounds more complex than it really is. It shouldn't require any more calculation than a normal energy-based attack would. The rule I had put was basically "the energy type is whatever type you are least-resistant too".
So if you had Resistance 10 against all energy types, it would help you more than immunity against any 1 type.


Also, just in case any one was worried, I certainly wouldn't make all the untyped damage sources this complicated. The Warlock was just a good example of something that had lots of OTHER options.

nonsi
2013-01-14, 12:01 PM
I was originally thinking that demons and devils would have the first combination, but if I had to differentiate I'd probably make the other Fel-energy combination Cold/Acid/Negative energy.

That way the two are similar, but you still have:
Hot Hell= Chaos/Fire
Cold Hell= Order/Ice

If any, Infernal should definitely get the fire side - and since raging fire roars, sonic definitely seems appropriate.
Also, Flaming lightning seems more appropriate to me to describe the chaotic nature of fey.
So this leads me to the following result:
- Evil (demonic heritage): Acid/Cold/Negative energy
- Good (celestial heritage): Cold/Electric/Positive energy
- Chaotic (fey heritage): Fire/Electric/Force
- Lawful (infernal heritage): Acid/Fire/Sonic




The rule I had put was basically "the energy type is whatever type you are least-resistant too".
So if you had Resistance 10 against all energy types, it would help you more than immunity against any 1 type.

As in, the warlock senses his opponents' resistances against his EB.
Me like a lot.
This would also make a warlock particularly useful in the company of another blaster.

Deepbluediver
2013-01-14, 12:22 PM
If any, Infernal should definitely get the fire side - and since raging fire roars, sonic definitely seems appropriate.
Also, Flaming lightning seems more appropriate to me to describe the chaotic nature of fey.
So this leads me to the following result:
- Evil (demonic heritage): Acid/Cold/Negative energy
- Good (celestial heritage): Cold/Electric/Positive energy
- Chaotic (fey heritage): Fire/Electric/Force
- Lawful (infernal heritage): Acid/Fire/Sonic

I'm curious as to why you think Devils and the infernal types of damage are better suited to using fire, rather than ice? I'm sure we can argue back and forth about which and what elements are chaotic or orderly, but to me ice seems like it's more about limiting and controlling things, and fire is just pure destruction. You even said that you prefer fire to represent the chaotic fey.

Also, while I really like the differences and set-up between devils and demons from 4th edition (described here (https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drdd/20070924) starting a few paragraphs down) they are both still evil outsiders, and I figured it would be good to keep some sort of connection or similarity between them.

As to the fey, I was taking my inspiration from World of Warcraft. In WoW, the major magic damage types are Fire, Ice, Arcane, Holy, Shadow, and Nature.
The "nature" damage heading includes spells like "Chain Lightning, Earth Shock, and Nature's Wrath", and when the game needing something poisonous or gooey, nature was usually the type that got assigned.

In D&D the difference between the druid-style brand of "nature" association and the plain "elemental" attachments can be indistinct, but I liked the idea of fey being more earthy forest-related and less fire and ice. Just my opinion I guess, feel free to assign what brands of energy you think best for your game.

nonsi
2013-01-14, 05:10 PM
I'm curious as to why you think Devils and the infernal types of damage are better suited to using fire, rather than ice?

"Infernal", as in "inferno" ?




I'm sure we can argue back and forth about which and what elements are chaotic or orderly, but to me ice seems like it's more about limiting and controlling things, and fire is just pure destruction. You even said that you prefer fire to represent the chaotic fey.

1. Forge fire is used for creating stuff in a manner that requires patience and dedication, so it's all in the details.
2. I said "Flaming lightning", not fire.
Q: When can we see the combination of lightning and fire in nature?
A: When a lightning hits a tree, making it burst into flame - probably the most violent natural phenomenon that doesn't involve the Earth element.




Also, while I really like the differences and set-up between devils and demons from 4th edition (described here (https://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drdd/20070924) starting a few paragraphs down) they are both still evil outsiders, and I figured it would be good to keep some sort of connection or similarity between them.

I was trying to equalize the appearances of the basic four elements (twice each).




As to the fey, I was taking my inspiration from World of Warcraft. In WoW, the major magic damage types are Fire, Ice, Arcane, Holy, Shadow, and Nature.
The "nature" damage heading includes spells like "Chain Lightning, Earth Shock, and Nature's Wrath", and when the game needing something poisonous or gooey, nature was usually the type that got assigned.

My WoW-fu is practically nonexistent, and I can't see how "Nature" is a type of damage.




In D&D the difference between the druid-style brand of "nature" association and the plain "elemental" attachments can be indistinct, but I liked the idea of fey being more earthy forest-related and less fire and ice. Just my opinion I guess, feel free to assign what brands of energy you think best for your game.

Can't argue with personal taste, other than say that fire is also an inseparable part of nature.