Class Rebalance [based on TOB ideas][PEACH]

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What if we rebalanced the base classes based off TOB ideas? I.e. the following ideas applied to all classes;

1) Classes are made interesting by having many different abilities. Classes are made balanced by those abilities working out to the same combat effectiveness.
2) All classes should have active abilities (powers) used in actively working in challenges. On average, such abilities would be as strong as swordsage maneuvers. The more towards "tank" a class is, the less powers it has. The more towards "glass cannon" a class is, the more/stronger powers it has.
3) All classes should have passive abilities, permanent bonuses that are always on. On average, such abilities would be as strong as a swordsage's passive/permanent bonuses. The more towards "tank" a class is, the more/stronger passives it has. The more towards "glass cannon" it is, the less passives it has.

For example, I give you a reworked wizard;

http://www.quantumgambitz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/WIZARD.jpg
HD: d4 saves: good will, bad reflex, bad fortitude BAB: 1/2

{table=head]Level|Spells Known|Spells Prepared|Spell Level|Cantrips|Special Abilities

1st|
6|
4|
1|
1|Spellbook, Scribe Scroll

2nd|
7|
4|
1|
1|

3rd|
8|
5|
2|
1|

4th|
9|
5|
2|
1|Item Creation or Ritual feat

5th|
10|
6|
3|
2|

6th|
11|
6|
3|
2|

7th|
12|
6|
4|
2|

8th|
13|
7|
4|
2|Item Creation or Ritual feat

9th|
14|
7|
5|
3|

10th|
15|
8|
5|
3|

11th|
16|
8|
6|
3|

12th|
17|
8|
6|
3|Item Creation or Ritual feat

13th|
18|
9|
7|
4|

14th|
19|
9|
7|
4|

15th|
20|
10|
8|
4|

16th|
21|
10|
8|
4|Item Creation or Ritual feat

17th|
22|
10|
9|
5|

18th|
23|
11|
9|
5|Archmage Ability

19th|
24|
11|
9|
5|Archmage Ability

20th|
25|
12|
10|
5|Archmage Ability[/table]


Spells:
A wizard casts arcane spells from the sorceror/wizard list. He has a number of spells known (as shown on the table above). By concentrating for 15 minutes, he can prepare a number of these spells for casting. He can prepare a spell more than once, taking up additional slots. He can then cast those spells normally at any later time, expending the spells prepared. Such spells have their normal duration, casting time, targets and other effects as normal.
Wizards can regain their allotment of spells via concentration, effectively memorizing again the same or different spells. 15 minutes of restful calm are required. In any situation where restful calm is impossible, a wizard may attempt to recover spells anyway, as long as they are conscious. Every minute a wizard must attempt a concentration check against any distractions (see spell failure). Success means they recover a single spell from their list at random.
Spell Duration: If a spell has a duration of any sort other than instantaneous or permanent, its duration expires as soon as the wizard recovers the spell slot expended for casting it. If a wizard is killed, spells cast by him continue to function unless otherwise noted - dead people can't recover spells after all.
Metamagic: Wizards can apply metamagic to their spells normally. A wizard's spell slots are at the level shown at the table thus a 20th level wizard could potentially apply metamagic even to 9th level spells.
Wizards (as well as any other non-broken spellcasting class) may not benefit from ANY reduction to the spell level cost of metamagic feats. NO exceptions. Automatically applying metamagic (such as by sudden metamagic or metamagic rods) still functions, as long as equally effective metapower options are available to other classes in the campaign.
Spell Failure: as per normal rules
Spellbook: A wizard may gather vast amounts of magical knowledge during his life. This knowledge includes knowledge of spells the wizard may find in scrolls or otherwise discover during his travels. Wizards typically record such spells in their own private spellbooks.
A wizard may write down any arcane spell from a scroll or other source for later access. This requires a successful spellcraft check to recognize the spell plus a successful knowledge: arcana check to copy it. Making a copy requires arcane inks and other materials costing 100 gp per level of the spell and a number of hours equal to the level of the spell. This assumes the wizard makes the copy upon common scrolls - if more exotic materials are used, add the cost of the materials and 1 additional hour per point of hardness of those materials.
Once the spell is written down, a wizard may use that archive to memorize that spell instead of memorizing one of the spells he knows personally. Doing this requires an extra minute of preparation per spell as the wizard studies his spellbook. Alternatively, a wizard may learn a spell to the point of mastery rather than relying on his spellbook - this requires a number of hours of magical practice equal to twice the spell's level. While it has no material cost, it requires the wizard to give up a known spell of equal level; mortal memory can do only so much where arcane formulae are involved.
Spellbooks can be accessed and used by other wizards - this requires twice the memorization or learning time as normal if you are using another's spellbook just to access the spell. Once you have cast a spell memorized in this manner at least once, you can write down your own copy with the normal time and resource requirements.
Spellbooks, unless magically or physically protected, don't have any innate resistance to damage beyond ordinary objects of their kind; they can be torn, burned or otherwise destroyed far more easily than they are made. Because replacing a spellbook requires a wizard both undergo the expenditure all over again as well as access to the spells themselves in some way, wizards should always take steps to protect their spellbooks.

Cantrips:
A wizard knows a very small number of cantrips - relatively minor spells he always has available or that he can cast at will. For example, a wizard may be able to cast Magic Missile or Shield at-will. Or, he may use his staff to shatter objects. Other wizards always seem to appear where something important is going on, or never late or early and some can hear their name when it is spoken (and specifically refers to them).
For a list of available cantrips, wait for the custom list.

Item Creation/Ritual Magic:
At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter except for 20th, a wizard may choose an item creation or ritual magic feat. Item Creation for wizards (and any other class if you want it to be balanced) costs no XP. It costs three quarters the item's total GP cost in materials and requires 1 hour of work per 1000 gp of difference from the full price, to a minimum of 2 hours.
Ritual magic is the ability to create magical effects that cover large areas or stationary targets, or perform effects of great power. For every "ritual magic" feat a character has, they have access to ritual magic of a single school.
Ritual magic allows a character to perform plot-level effects such as a necromancer raising an army of undead or a summoner calling forth a Great Old One or an elementalist plunging a country in winter. No mechanics are given for ritual magic; a Great Ritual cannot be resolved through simple combat-level abilities. Instead, the GM sets a series of specific challenges or a quest the character must perform; the completed ritual is the reward of that quest or challenges. The bigger the ritual the player intends, the greater the challenges required by the GM. NPCs and villains use the same system of challenges and quests to complete their own apocalyptic rituals - the PCs can naturally attempt to stop them from preventing that ritual from taking place.

[Nightgaun7]

2) All classes should have active abilities (powers) used in actively working in challenges. On average, such abilities would be as strong as swordsage maneuvers. The more towards "tank" a class is, the less powers it has. The more towards "glass cannon" a class is, the more/stronger powers it has.
3) All classes should have passive abilities, permanent bonuses that are always on. On average, such abilities would be as strong as a swordsage's passive/permanent bonuses. The more towards "tank" a class is, the more/stronger passives it has. The more towards "glass cannon" it is, the less passives it has.


I don't know about all the rest of it, but as someone who dearly loves tanking, I have to say - no way! Passives are (usually) boring, activated powers are much more fun to have. Give both powers, just make them different kinds.

[The-Mage-King]

Personally, I think the non-magicals should be the only ones with truly unlimited daily resources, unless the magic in question is akin to invocations or binding. Note, though, that "non-magic" does not equal "mundane".

Let the magicians keep their big, flashy spells that solve problems in the snap of their fingers. In trade for their relevance at almost any point, they get limited resources.

Tanky classes should get a host of passives, but also a number of relevant active abilities, enabling them to actively divert aggro/hp damage/effects. Glass cannons, the opposite.

And, of course, the middle ground (Warblade-like) should get some of each.


Now, the strength of this Wizard you're suggesting really depends on what the spells are.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

For clarification, the few powers/lots of passives for tankish characters would use the Warblade as an example. In addition to d12 HD and full BAB, a Warblade gets over the course of its 20 levels the following passives;


1) 4 fbonus feats
2) Can adjust any weapon-related feats to another weapon 1/day.
3) Intelligence bonus to reflex saves
4) Uncanny Dodge
5) Intelligence bonus to critical hit confirmation
6) Intelligence bonus to damage vs flat-footed or flanked
7) Intelligence bonus to resisting bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip
8.) Intelligence bonus to attack/damage of AoOs.
9) 4 stances, which are essentially passive abilities you can choose from
10) Ability to activate 2 stances at once

As a result, the Warblade gets only 13 maneuvers known, 7 maneuvers readied and a more limited maneuver selection - essentially half the maneuvering ability of the swordsage. (and also half that of my proposed wizard)



Now, the strength of this Wizard you're suggesting really depends on what the spells are.
So what spells would a wizard memorize by level 20 to make him broken? Let's use Pathfinder for spell selection since they've fixed the polymorphing issues WotC never got around to fixing - but feel free to use other things from 3.5 edition proper.

[The-Mage-King]

So what spells would a wizard memorize by level 20 to make him broken? Let's use Pathfinder for spell selection since they've fixed the polymorphing issues WotC never got around to fixing - but feel free to use other things from 3.5 edition proper.

It isn't "Which" it's "When". A 20th level wizard can have entirely different loadouts each day.


The issue of Tier 1 casters isn't just their sheer power. It's the fact that they can be at exactly the same power level, just with a different focus, all by taking a third of a day to rest/recover.

A Warblade or Fighter? Sure, they can change their gear out, but that costs resources. They can't reshuffle their feats, or their maneuvers known, aside from limited exceptions.

But a Wizard, or Cleric? One day they have a bad loadout. But the next, they know what they're facing. They prepare the spells to deal with it, and crush it with little effort.





If you're looking to reinterpret casters into ToB mechanics, I'd suggest you take a look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224508), first. Note that the board it links to is offline at the moment, so you'll need to grab the pdfs in the first post (just scroll down to where it says pdfs, and you'll find 'em).

[Spiryt]

Seems interesting. Wizard like that can indeed be 'just' powerful...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The issue of Tier 1 casters isn't just their sheer power. It's the fact that they can be at exactly the same power level, just with a different focus, all by taking a third of a day to rest/recover.
Sure they can. But "a third of the day" is considerably more than "whoa, all I got is fire spells and the red dragon will attack next round!"
Casters can, indeed, adapt - but that adaptation takes (or should take) much longer than the time between encounters during the day. The game assumes the party will face an average of 4 encounters between rest periods.


A Warblade or Fighter? Sure, they can change their gear out, but that costs resources. They can't reshuffle their feats, or their maneuvers known, aside from limited exceptions.
But a Wizard, or Cleric? One day they have a bad loadout. But the next, they know what they're facing. They prepare the spells to deal with it, and crush it with little effort.
How do they know what they are facing? Unless they have met their enemies before, they can't specifically use divinations against them. And the usual indirect divination of asking "will I be facing X today" has a chance of failure in it AND is dependent on future player actions; if the player changes their mind and goes left instead of right for example, they might end up going against an entirely different encounter.

[The-Mage-King]

Sure they can. But "a third of the day" is considerably more than "whoa, all I got is fire spells and the red dragon will attack next round!"
Casters can, indeed, adapt - but that adaptation takes (or should take) much longer than the time between encounters during the day. The game assumes the party will face an average of 4 encounters between rest periods.

It shouldn't. But there are ways to adapt far quicker. Casters can leave slots empty, to fill with an hour's work. Or one of the "Oh, I really need this spell right now" tricks. Or some other form of trickery.



How do they know what they are facing? Unless they have met their enemies before, they can't specifically use divinations against them. And the usual indirect divination of asking "will I be facing X today" has a chance of failure in it AND is dependent on future player actions; if the player changes their mind and goes left instead of right for example, they might end up going against an entirely different encounter.

Okay, here's an example. You go into a cave complex. You find a few bats hiding in it, near the entrance, a couple of snakes, and some [cave dwelling carnivore]. You manage to find a secured place to sleep for the night while spelunking.


What do you expect to find the next day?

More bats, snakes, and carnivores.


That's how the Wizard knows what to prepare. Generally useful spells that are superb against certain enemies, knowledge checks for the area, and extrapolating.


And, of course, you can expect that a Wizard who's going, say, dragonslaying, would research the dragon's type, and what spells to pack for it.

Same as a wizard expecting to be involved in politics. Spy-spells, some subtle mind magics, ect.

Basically, knowledge of the environment you're operating in. If an area is known for creatures that are resistant to fire, are you filling all your slots with fireball? No. You're filling them with things effective against the creatures you're likely dealing with, and improvise if it doesn't work.

If the variables are too unknown? Prep the basics that work on almost anything, and adapt after a day if it doesn't work out/you get more information.


See: Logic Ninja's Guide to Being Batman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002), Dictum Mortis' handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/p/handbooks.html), et all.





Anyway, have you taken a look at the homebrew I linked? I think it fits the criteria you were aiming for fairly well, at least for spellcasters. Skillmonkies are still out of luck, but a number of folks are considering ideas to fix that.

[nonsi]

Regarding your Wizard:
1. Notice that level 2 provides almost nothing. Same goes for levels 6 & 14. When designing classes, you should make sure that each level progression gives something worth while.
2. Why only a single cantrip at 1st level?
3. What are 10th level spells?
4. What constitutes an Archmage Ability?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) I guess I can add familiar at 2nd level. Not sure what I should add at levels 6 and 14 that doesn't make the class more powerful; IMHO it is balanced as is.

2) Cantrips will be "small magic usable at-will". They aren't supposed to be useful in combat except as a last resort, sort of like the Reserve Feat abilities.

3) There aren't any 10th-level spells; a 20th level wizard gets 10th level spell slots just so he can silent/still/heighten 9th level spells instead. This is intended as a capstone for 20 levels of spellcasting.

4) Archmage abilities are the standard ones from the Archmage class, except they don't cost spell slots. They're put there so that getting 20 levels of wizard will be just as useful as wizard 10/PrC 10, which is usually significantly better than plain wizard.

[Zireael]

I love the basic premise and the wizard looks ok to me in terms of power. Dead levels should be avoided, though.

[nonsi]

2) Cantrips will be "small magic usable at-will". They aren't supposed to be useful in combat except as a last resort, sort of like the Reserve Feat abilities.


I don't see how this answers my question.
Let me rephrase: is it not reasonable for a 1st level wizard to have Detect Magic + Read Magic + Prestidigitation, plus one extra utility spell such as Mage Hand, Mending or Message ?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

They can use spells known on them or write them in their spellbook for 50 gp. Then memorize and use them. They won't start with all of them as beginning characters but then again, a beginning wizard could never cast all those cantrips to begin with; they only got 3 cantrip slots per day so at most 3 cantrips usable 1/day each was the norm for 1st level characters.

This wizard could start with an at-will cantrip, two in his spellbook from starting funds, one more as a spell known for a total of four. And then he could memorize and cast even those not at-will many times over the course of a day.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I give you a reworked fighter;

http://www.perverseosmosis.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/fighter-20071202-031522.jpg
HD: d10 saves: bad will, good reflex, good fortitude BAB: full

{table=head]Level|Maneuvers Known|Stances Known|Maneuver Level|Stances Ready|Special Abilities

1st|
3|
2|
1|
1|Bonus feat, armor/weapon proficiency

2nd|
4|
2|
1|
1|Weapon or Armor Specialization

3rd|
5|
3|
2|
1|Bonus feat

4th|
6|
3|
2|
1|Weapon or Armor Specialization

5th|
7|
4|
3|
1|Bonus feat

6th|
8|
4|
3|
2|Weapon or Armor Specialization

7th|
9|
5|
4|
2|Bonus feat

8th|
10|
5|
4|
2|Weapon or Armor Specialization

9th|
11|
6|
5|
2|Bonus feat

10th|
12|
6|
5|
2|Weapon or Armor Specialization

11th|
13|
7|
6|
2|Bonus feat

12th|
14|
7|
6|
3|Weapon or Armor Specialization

13th|
15|
8|
7|
3|Bonus feat

14th|
16|
8|
7|
3|Weapon or Armor Specialization

15th|
17|
9|
8|
3|Bonus feat

16th|
18|
9|
8|
4|Weapon or Armor Specialization

17th|
19|
10|
9|
4|Bonus feat

18th|
20|
10|
9|
4|Weapon or Armor Mastery

19th|
21|
11|
9|
4|Weapon or Armor Mastery

20th|
22|
11|
9|
5|Weapon or Armor Mastery[/table]

Armor/weapon proficiency:
The fighter is proficient with all weapons, all armors and all shields.

Bonus feats:
The fighter gets a number of bonus feats from the usual fighter feat list every other level as shown on the table above.

Armor/weapon specialization:
The fighter gets one weapon, armor or shield specialization every other level as shown on the table. A weapon specialization applies to one close weapon group such as "bows", "two handed swords" or "one-handed blunt weapons". If a weapon can be used both one-handed and two handed, the specialization applies when it is used in that specific form. It gives either a +1 attack, or +2 damage, or +2 CMD when using that weapon group.
A shield specialization applies to one type of shield (light or heavy) and gives +2 AC or +2 CMD when having that shield equipped.
An armor specialization applies to one type of armor (light, medium or heavy) and gives +2 AC or +2 max dexterity bonus or -3 armor check penalty.
A fighter can select a single weapon group or a single armor or shield type more than one. The bonuses don't stack; he must choose another bonus from those available instead.
A fighter can select a specialization instead of a fighter bonus feat.

Armor/Weapon Mastery:
At 18th, 19th and 20th level, a fighter may choose a Mastery for any weapon, shield or armor type in which he has at least 2 specialization bonuses.
Those bonuses all increase by 1. In the case of armor, the fighter gains DR x/- equal to half the armor's AC bonus, rounded up. In the case of a shield or weapon, the fighter gets a +10 CMD bonus to resist combat maneuvers that affect his weapon or shield and may still employ that weapon or shield in a grapple.


Maneuvers:
Fighters are masters of combat; weapon tricks for any weapon types, combat formation tricks, mastery of shield use, making the best of their armor and similar abilities. Thus they have access to a number of combat maneuvers and stances as shown in the table from the following maneuver groups: Blademaster, Blunt Weapons Master, Combat Mobility, Dual Weapon Wielder, Exotic Weaponmaster, Polearm Master, Way of the Bow, Shieldbearer, Armored Champion, Formation Expert, Mounted Knight.
A fighter doesn't have a set number of maneuvers readied - all of his maneuvers are readied. However, he can only employ a given maneuver if he has the appropriate equipment or situation. I.e. a Blademaster needs a blade of some sort to employ those maneuvers, Formation Experts must be in a formation of some sort to work their abilities and so on and so forth.
A fighter recovers expended maneuvers in three ways; a five-minute rest allows him to recover all of his maneuvers. Performing a single attack as a standard action allows him to guide the flow of combat and set up for (recover) two expended maneuvers. And last but not least, each maneuver group allows the fighter to recover two maneuvers of that group by performing a non-maneuver combat action specific to that group (i.e. Mounted Knight maneuvers can be recovered by performing a full charge).

Stances:
A fighter knows more than just a few tricks and quick attacks with the weapons he has mastered; he has also learned entire ways of fighting specific to each weapon type. Thus, a fighter learns stances from the same eleven fighting styles he learns maneuvers from, as shown on the table above. As with maneuvers, most stances only apply when using that specific style.
Starting at 6th level, a fighter also learns to combine methods and fighting styles in the battlefield. He can "ready" -that is, employ- more than one stance at once provided he fulfills the prerequisites for all stances he readies. I.e. a 6th level fighter could employ both Formation Defense and Formation Offense simultaneously if he was fighting in a formation or both Shield Block and Blade Parry if he had a sword and shield equipped. As a fighter's experience and mastery of fighting styles progresses, he can combine more and more stances. A 20th level fighter could well have the Shield Block, Blade Parry, Lightning Assault, Overwhelming Blows and Juggernaught stances simultaneously.


NOTES:

1) The fighter is intended to be a master of weapons, as always. The maneuvers are very martial and weapon-oriented and make the class both interesting and combat-effective without detracting from the primarily western martial style.
2) The fighter is supposed to be a better pure combatant than ToB classes. As such, his maneuvers and passive abilities combined make him slightly better in pure combat - but he lacks the supernatural abilities of ToB classes (i.e. no maneuver/stance would ever give invisibility or energy damage to the fighter or heal him outright)
3) Instead of giving a static set of interesting passive/always on abilities to the fighter, I gave him multiple stances. The stances replace those passive abilities that don't give a flat numerical bonus and the player is allowed to choose both which to take and which to have active at a time.
4) I haven't actually built the maneuvers and stances for the fighter yet. That would take significantly more time than revising the base class itself. They should be on par with ToB maneuvers and stances, only weapon-oriented and entirely nonsupernatural. Since the base class is modular in that it could be loaded up with any maneuvers/stances available, feel free to design your own if you want to. I'll eventually get around to posting the full set... but that will take a long time.

[Alias]

I've been working on my own system outright after gradually moving further and further away from d20 until I stumbled into a new mechanic and want to use it. That said, I've hit some of these issues and I'm currently in the process of building the system progression. I am aiming for a level based system upon which classes exist as easy mode templates for the players who don't want to fidget with character points.

Along the way one of the things I was working with was spells. The long standing issue with spell casters is the issue of their spells getting stronger as they level up individually, and the number of spells they could cast increased.

Two developments occurred at about the same time. First, I introduced the idea of wizards actually losing spell slots as they go up in level, such that at any given time they only have 6 spells. The reason for this is mainly play speed - the game is easier if you only have 6 options to worry about rather than 26-30 even at mid game.

I knew immediately players would want to prepare lower spells up a level if they were especially good. This already happens via meta-magic feats. What I hit upon was the idea that the spell's effect was contained in the level it was cast on - usually damage. If the spells are written correctly a magic missile cast as a 9th level spell should be as fearsome as spells only received at 1st.

Level X spells for Pathfinder came out of this idea and I've added some to my spells thread as a result.

But I also noted one night that if a player is picking up higher level spells as the same rate as they loose lower level slots the total spell levels of the caster only goes up by 3 points a level. So I had stumbled into a slot system that can be represented by points.

Anyway, all babbling aside, I worry about any system that has option flood. Combat typically runs less than 10 rounds - if a player's turn is 1 minute and there are 4 players that's a 40 minute battle - allow half again that much for the GM to handle the monsters - or 60 minutes in full. The more options the player has, the longer their turns will take as they consider them. Also, the more options, the more difficult encounter generation becomes for the GM.

And also, the more slots, the more abilities must exist for each slot. To keep it interesting you need a minimum of 4 per slot to choose from - 4e very strictly started with this. Hence, 22 maneuvers works out to 88 in the book, and 44 stances to choose from for those 11 slots. It will be very hard to balance them and make them equally viable against each other within the class - let alone balance them against the other classes.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The more options the player has, the longer their turns will take as they consider them.
Nope. A player that has leveled-up their character from level 1, or at least played a similar amount of time in intermediate levels in different campaigns will know his/her maneuvers and abilities pretty much by heart. The only "research" time comes in when a player has to pick a new maneuver or stance and that comes up only at level up or character creation.
For people that want to start at higher levels from the beginning, they better sit down and study character options during character creation.

A new player isn't going to make a 70th level character in World of Warcraft or Old Republic the first time they play. They also expect to need to learn stuff and have options in later levels, not the game to be simplistic and boring.
So why on earth should a tabletop RPG be simplistic at high levels when fairly easy online games where players must decide in split seconds are not?
(4th edition, I'm looking at you. :smallfurious: )


It will be very hard to balance them and make them equally viable against each other within the class - let alone balance them against the other classes.
Why? Clerics, Druids and Wizards have hundreds upon hundreds of options. And they are all significantly different options with tactics that play out differently. And yet, those classes are pretty much on the same tier - more or less balanced against each other.

If all the classes are based on the same overall system, they are far more easy to balance than classes that work entirely differently. That's the one thing 4th Edition did well. Too bad it is impossibly outnumbered by all the things it did wrong.

[Straybow]

I am unfamiliar with ToB. How do maneuvers and stances mesh with BAB cascading multiple attacks?

[Pyromancer999]

For the wizard, I'd use spellshaping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224508) instead of spells, if you're going for a ToB feel.

[Alias]

Nope. A player that has leveled-up their character from level 1, or at least played a similar amount of time in intermediate levels in different campaigns will know his/her maneuvers and abilities pretty much by heart.

The reason for this is that of the 22 odd options they have, only 2 or 3 are relevant. So, why have them stay around?

The players aren't that affected. The DM does have to make 10th or at high levels 20th level foes up on the spot - and having trees of abilities that large make it a bear to do. I don't want to spend two hours balancing out a character I intend the party to kill in under 2 minutes.

[The-Mage-King]

I am unfamiliar with ToB. How do maneuvers and stances mesh with BAB cascading multiple attacks?

Strikes (a subtype of maneuvers, which are the primary damage dealing ones) are typically a standard action, so you don't usually get multiple attacks. Stances are passive effects, and apply to all attacks if they affect them in the first place. Boosts, the same, unless they specify "the next attack" or aren't attack boosting.

If you want, shoot me a PM and I can give you a rough rundown of everything.


For the wizard, I'd use spellshaping (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224508) instead of spells, if you're going for a ToB feel.

Already suggested that a while back.

[Zireael]

I like the revised fighter as such, but the lack of manevuers makes it hard to ascertain the power level.