PDA

View Full Version : Lightsaber, because there's really no point in naming it anything else.



Cipher Stars
2013-01-18, 09:38 PM
Because I felt like it, I decided to make some lightsabers.


Lightsabers:
{table=head]Size|Damage|Critical|Weight|Cost

Fine|1d4|18-20 x2|.025|250gp

Diminutive|1d6|18-20 x2|.05|500gp

Tiny|1d8|18-20 x2|.5|1000gp

Small|1d10|18-20 x2|1.5|2000gp

Medium|2d6|18-20 x2|2.5|4000gp

Large|3d6|18-20 x2|5|8,000gp

Huge|4d6|18-20 x2|10|16,000gp

Gargantuan|6d6|18-20 x2|20|32,000gp

Colossal|8d6|18-20 x2|40|64,000gp[/table]



Lightsabers are small easily concealed cylinders of varying design. Within is a complex network or circuits or runes which both channel and focus energy through a colored crystal to generate a blade of pure energy in a choice color determined by the color of the crystal used. The color of the blades are always vibrant and bright, dark colors do not function unless the change in color is due to some other effect or otherwise specified.

The color can be changed at any time in the future by replacing it's crystal core with a new crystal of the new color. Working the crystal into a required shape is a Craft: Jeweler check with a DC dependent on the gem which require's a special feat to perform.
Lightsaber Gemcraft:
Requirements: Craft: Jewelry 8 ranks, apprenticeship by someone who already has Lightsaber Gemcraft. OR: Craft: Jewelry 15 ranks and studied a lightsaber for one week.
Benefit: You can use Craft: Jewelry to work with the special color crystals required for Lightsabers.

All lightsabers are melee touch attacks, ignoring things such as armor or shields. Against objects a lightsaber ignores the first hardness equal 5+ the crystal's purity, and they ignore the first HP/inch equal to 1/2 the crystal's purity round down. A lightsaber can never deal bleeding damage, as the blade cauterizes it's wounds. When a lightsaber scores a critical hit, the target makes a fortitude save (DC dependent on gem) or loses a limb. This only functions against creatures one size category larger than the weapon is made for or less.

Lightsabers are exotic weapons, that require a feat to function properly even if the class or racial HD would permit Exotic weapons. The feat is as follows:
Lightsaber Trained:
Requirements: BaB +5, Exotic weapon Proficiency: Lightsaber.
Benefit: When wielding a lightsaber, you do not have any penalties or risk injuring yourself with your blade. This does not negate adjustment for wielding a larger lightsaber then is made for your size, thus a medium creature wielding a lightsaber made for a large creature would still have their roll adjusted by 2.
Normal: A creature that wields a lightsaber without this feat has their attack rolls be considered as though it were four less, to a minimum of acting as a natural one. This adjustment increases by 2 every size category larger the weapon is than the wielder. Thus a medium creature wielding a large lightsaber has their rolls adjusted to -six. On a natural one on an attack roll, the wielder damages themselves as though they rolled a natural 18 on their attack roll.

Certain classes may grant Lightsaber Training for free even if they do not meet the prerequisites.


For severed limbs, Roll a d8 to determine if it is a hand, foot, arm, or leg. 1-2 are feet, 3 is a leg, 4 is an arm, 5-6 are hands, 7 seven results in no limb loss, 8 results in a head strike- which kills the target.
If it does not make sense for the target to lose a foot, the DM may opt for a 50% chance that no severing occurs or that it was instead a leg.
If a creature does not have a listed limb, such as a snake, no severing occurs when rolled. Wings and tentacles or other additional appendages may replace limbs as appropriate for the roll, or may be extended on a larger die size.
When a limb is severed, the creature must make a fortitude save as though vs massive damage.
When a lightsaber would deliver a coup de grace, it can instead directly aim to sever the head without rolling, though the helpless victim still gets a fortitude save. If it succeeds, well, it still takes critical damage as normal. A lightsaber to the neck isn't pretty one way or another.



Hand

Since a personís manual dexterity comes primarily from the opposable thumbs interacting with the fingers and palms, the loss of a hand limits how complex items are used and how items are carried.

A character who has lost a hand incurs the following penalties:

-5 penalty on Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, and Use Magic Device skill checks;
-4 penalty on grapple checks;
Must make a caster level check to cast spells with somatic components;
Unable to wield two-handed weapons or make two-weapon attacks, but may still wear a shield on the affected arm;
Carrying capacity is not reduced. However, the maximum weight a character can lift over head or off the ground is reduced by one third, as shown on Table: Modified Lifting Capacity: Hand (for medium creatures). These penalties do not stack with other penalties for losing limbs.
A character who has lost both hands, or one hand and one arm, cannot use any of the listed skills, make attacks, cast spells with somatic components, or handle objects, without the aid of prosthetics or magic.


Arm

Losing an arm at the elbow (or higher) severely limits what that side of the body can do. With a markedly shorter reach and range, the arm is practically unusable.

A character who has lost an arm incurs the following penalties:

-10 penalty on Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, and Use Magic Device skill checks;
-8 penalty on grapple checks;
Must make a caster level check at a -5 penalty to cast spells with somatic components;
Unable to wield weapons two-handed or make two-weapon attacks, and may not wear a shield on the affected arm.
Carrying capacity is not reduced. However, the maximum weight a character can lift over head or off the ground is halved, as shown on Table: Modified Lifting Capacity: Arm (for medium creatures). These penalties do not stack with other penalties for losing limbs.
A character who has lost both arms cannot use any of the listed skills, make attacks, or use objects, without the aid of prosthetics or magic.


Foot

Keeping upright becomes a chore with the loss of the foot. Uneven legs, no pivot point, and a smaller base affect land movement.

A character who has lost a foot incurs the following penalties:

-5 penalty on Acrobatics, Climb, Ride, Stealth, and certain Perform skill checks (GMís discretion).
Cannot run.
Cannot bull rush or overrun and takes a -4 penalty to resist these combat maneuvers.
Land movement rate is reduced by half, and characters can no longer benefit from the fast movement class feature.
Carrying capacity is reduced by one third and the maximum weight a character can lift over head or off the ground is halved, as shown on Table: Modified Lifting Capacity: Foot (for medium creatures). These penalties do not stack with other penalties for losing limbs.
A character who has lost both feet, or one foot and one leg, is always considered flat-footed, cannot use any of the listed skills, and can only move 5 feet as a full round action, without the aid of prosthetics or magic.


Leg

Losing a leg at the knee (or higher) strips it of its fundamental purposes. Walking is replaced by hopping, standing is replaced by balancing, kicking becomes impossible. Very little can be done in an upright position without aid from a prosthetic, magic, or fellow adventurer.

A character who has lost a leg incurs the following penalties:

-10 penalty on Acrobatics, Climb, Ride, Stealth, and certain Perform skill checks (GMís discretion).
Cannot run or charge.
Cannot bull rush or overrun and takes a -12 penalty to resist these combat maneuvers.
Speed is reduced to 5 feet, and can no longer make a 5-foot step.
Carrying capacity is reduced by two thirds and the maximum weight a character can lift over head or off the ground is halved when sitting, impossible when standing, as shown on Table: Modified Lifting Capacity: Leg (for medium creatures). These penalties do not stack with other penalties for losing limbs.
A character who has lost both legs is always considered flat-footed and prone, and can only move 5 feet as a full round action, without the aid of prosthetics or magic.







Color Crystals:
Various crystals have different attributes, value, and rarity. They are mildly self-aware and may disagree with a user.

All costs are for a gem aimed at a tiny sized lightsaber, double each time per size category larger.
All costs assume the gem is already shaped. Gems cost 15% less if you buy the same general sized crystal unshaped for reshaping into the same sized focused crystal ready for use. A crystal one size higher can provide two focused crystals the size smaller. A focused crystal looks like a cylinder 1/5th the lightsaber itself's size (not including when the blade is extended, just the hilt which is referred to as "The lightsaber").
Crystals can be sabotaged in 1 minute with a crafting (Craft: Jeweler) check of the listed DC, meanwhile an appraise check vs the check to sabotage can determine if a crystal is sabotaged. Repairing a sabotaged crystal is a craft: Jeweler check of ten higher than the listed craft DC taking one hour.
The effects of a sabotaged crystal vary. A successful check render's the crystal's special properties (+1 to damage rolls for a red lightsaber for example) inert. For every two points you beat the DC you lessen that lightsaber's damage by 1 for as long as it uses that crystal. For every five points you beat the DC you lessen the Fort DC by 2. If you do not attempt to hide your sabotaging of the crystal (The crystal is visibly impaired requiring no appraise check) you gain a +5 to your sabotaging roll.
You could also simply try to shatter the crystal, in which case the lightsaber does not function at all. It takes a full round action to remove a crystal from it's lightsaber and a standard action to place one in if it is empty.
A lightsaber which had it's crystal simply destroyed does not work, and may not be as beneficial to the sabotaging individual.
For an extra 100gp, a lightsaber can be made which is harder to remove the crystal. This makes it require a disable device check DC= 10+5 every 100gp spent on the option to a maximum of 25. A 75gp cost can be applied to simply render the crystal sealed, with no method of removal without dismantling the lightsaber entirely (Disable Device 30).

And finally, crystals have more beneficial effects based on Purity.
Purity is measured through 1-5. All the below crystals assume 1, the least pure.
Yellow Crystals are always pure at 5, and Orange crystals are always mostly pure at 4, with no 5.
For each increase numerical benefits granted by it's base ability, such as the red lightsaber's +1 to damage but not it's Fort DC, by +1 per purity rank. A purity of 5 would translate to a red lightsaber having a +5 to damage rolls, meanwhile crystals of higher purity have something of an ego. A crystal invoke it's purity level as a penalty to all rolls made by a character who's total HD adds up to less than three times the crystal's Purity rating, thus a level one-2 character couldn't wield a Purity 1 Lightsaber without incurring a -1 penalty to all rolls. This includes rolls such as diplomacy checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, or will saves.
Purer crystals are harder to work with, and add it's purity level to the craft DCs, HP/inch, and Hardness.
Each purity increase add's x1.5 to the crystal's listed price, until it would become Purity 5 in which case the cost is x3 from it's Purity 4 counterpart.

The capability of a lightsaber's crystal has no effect on the cost from adding enchantments to the weapon itself. As the crystal and lightsaber itself are separate.

Unless a specific gem states otherwise, Lightsabers are susceptible to Dispel Magic attempts as though it had a spell level equal to twice the gem's purity, and a caster level equal to 10+Purity.
Lightsabers susceptible to dispel magic do not function in antimagic.
A lightsaber that is dispelled or just left an antimagic field is inert for 6 rounds, minus it's purity.

Various enchantments on the lightsaber itself may effect the color produced by the lightsaber, tinting it with various hues and shades based on the enchantments itself.

Basic Crystals:
Green:
The most common crystal. No change from base statistics. Cost: 250gp
Fort DCs: 15.
Craft DCs: 15.
HP/inch: 3
Hardness: 10

Blue:
The second most common crystal, Blue crystals have a +1 to attack rolls. Cost: 300gp
Fort DCs: 15
Craft DCs: 15
HP/inch: 4
Hardness: 10

Red:
Less common than blue, but still fairly common. Red crystals have a +1 to damage rolls. Cost 325gp.
Fort DCs: 18
Craft DCs: 20
HP/inch: 4
Hardness: 12

Purple:
One of the rarer color crystals, Purple isn't commonly found. Purple crystals have a +1 insight bonus to AC. Cost: 450gp.
Fort DCs: 20
Craft DCs: 25
HP/inch: 6
Hardness: 15

Orange:
Much rarer than Purple. Orange crystals are often sought after. Orange crystals ignore hardness and deal twice the damage to objects. Cost: 1,000gp
Fort DCs: 24
Craft DCs: 30
HP/inch: 6
Hardness: 18

Yellow:
The rarest of the crystals presented here (Save for the Unique Example). Yellow crystals are capable of making sunder attempts on other lightsabers, and can break force effects as though they cast dispel magic with a caster level of 15. Cost: 1,500
Fort DCs: 30
Craft DCs: 40
HP/inch: 10
Hardness: 20



Unique gems are unique because none other's are publicly known to exist, but multiple gems may potentially be found if it is not truly unique.

Example Unique gem:
Unique- White, The Soulwalker
The Soulwalker is a clear cylinder made from an unknown gem. It's translucent as glass, and only fits in medium sized lightsabers or modified small lightsabers. Soulwalker deals five negative levels whenever it hits and always deals four times it's normal damage against undead. Cost: Unique. Value places at around 200,000gp.
Fort DCs:
Craft DCs: None (already shaped)
HP/inch: 10
Hardness: 18

Cipher Stars
2013-01-18, 09:49 PM
I'm entirely open to pricing adjustments on this.

bobthe6th
2013-01-18, 09:59 PM
well... um.... this makes size increasing choices really good. Also the crit rates get stupid. What system was this made for? D&D 3.5?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-18, 10:09 PM
2d6, 18-20x3 makes this the best weapon, always. Add that there's a 15% chance to sever limbs (up to 30% with Improved Critical, which anyone wielding this WILL take), and no one will use anything BUT this as long as this is an option. Making all attacks touch attacks is just icing on the cake.

Also, I just noticed the critical range scales with size. That shouldn't be a thing, ever. WAY to easy to break and/or auto-crit.

I think this weapon is fairly poorly designed because it's insanely powerful with no tradeoff at all. It's just the bet at damaging things, period, an also the best at hitting thugs, period. Still, were I to attempt to price this:

Touch attacks on hit is basically permanent Wraithstrike, which is RAW available for 2,000gp, and no DM I've EVER met would allow that, because it's insanely broken. Minimum price I'd drop on that effect is 20,000, and I'd consider myself generous (brilliant energy is strictly worse, because it doesn't hurt some things, and that carries a +3 enhancement cost which, if applied to a +1 weapon, is +30,000, so this should really be 30,000+ in cost for that alone). The weapon itself can snag one increase from being made Exotic, but the extra damage and crit range I'd price as extra "feats," for about 2-5,000 a pop. I'm not sure how I'd price the limb-cutting effect, honestly, but the instant-kill potential does increase the price.

Still, we're looking at 25,000-30,000 for this weapon even WITHOUT the limb-cutting effect. A very generous DM might allow it for around 12,000, but I think tha/ a bit early for a weapon which rapidly can become a 15-20x3 crit weapon that attacks with touch attacks.

Corwin Icewolf
2013-01-18, 10:24 PM
In star wars, a non-jedi wielding a lightsaber risks cutting themself up due to the lack of perceptible weight. Maybe adding something like that would help to balance this? Also Cortosis and metal made with Sith Alchemy resists lightsaber damage, so there should be materials that resist it. Some form of energy resistance should also apply.

LordErebus12
2013-01-18, 10:27 PM
Lightsaber
Exotic Future Light Weapon

2d4 + half strength for small
3d4 + half strength for medium
4d4 + half strength for large

19-20x3
Ignores all hardness, except by cortosis weave objects.

this has always been my lightsaber standard power in all my star wars themed games.

Id add or remove a 1d4, depending on what size adjustment is given.

this keeps the overall power down, gives it that finesse, less clumsy than that doomstick your waving around.

Gnorman
2013-01-18, 10:53 PM
Agreed. Ridiculously overpowered for the price. Needs to be toned down significantly, should require a feat to use, and certainly shouldn't be available for purchase.

LordErebus12
2013-01-18, 11:16 PM
Agreed. Ridiculously overpowered for the price. Needs to be toned down significantly, should require a feat to use, and certainly shouldn't be available for purchase.

overpowered, yes. toned down, yes. feat, yes (or class feature for jedi/dark jedi). available for purchase, debatable... in fact the parts are fairly common.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/5/57/Baodurconcept.PNG

Erik Vale
2013-01-19, 03:30 AM
It has a free [almost] vorpal enchantment [18-20, limb loss with 1/8 being a headshot], also, you forgot the part about ignoring hardness [assuming your going full starwars lightsaber]

Lets raise the price tag a few thousand.

Also, you need something as to whether it works in antimagic, being that it's blade is pure energy created by magic.

LordErebus12
2013-01-19, 03:41 AM
Also, you need something as to whether it works in antimagic, being that it's blade is pure energy created by magic.

I dislike the idea that its magical...

Cipher Stars
2013-01-19, 04:28 AM
Third comment has been taken and expanded upon, thanks. I haven't included any special materials yet but I think I will now.

Fourth comment I dislike the idea... that seems to do the lightsaber little justice. It's a lightsaber, it's not supposed to be powered down.

Prices raised. Weapons are magic in nature now, for a sembelance of balance.



Perhaps just Adamantine metal resists the lightsaber's effects. I didn't forget that lightsabers ignore hardness, I wasn't going to add it save for on the Orange crystal. However, I did forget to say that when attacking objects Lightsabers ignore the first 5+Purity hardness, and the first amount of HP/level of the object equal to 1/2 it's Purity round down.

Zireael
2013-01-19, 05:59 AM
Does the cost for a weapon include the cost of a crystal? What about unique crystals?

lunaramblings
2013-01-19, 02:57 PM
Why not just port over the stats from Star Wars d20?

Cipher Stars
2013-01-19, 03:07 PM
Does the cost for a weapon include the cost of a crystal? What about unique crystals?

I said they were separate. A medium lightsaber's listed price is only the base parts which doesn't include the crystal.
A medium lightsaber with a green crystal would cost 2,000(crystal)+4,000(saber)gp.

J-H
2013-01-19, 03:11 PM
It's basically simulating Brilliant Energy (+4) and Vorpal (+5) - definitely needs to be an exotic and magic weapon for game balance purposes.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy

Cipher Stars
2013-01-19, 04:03 PM
It's basically simulating Brilliant Energy (+4) and Vorpal (+5) - definitely needs to be an exotic and magic weapon for game balance purposes.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy


I definitely disagree with the whole vorpal thing. It's ridiculous how severing limbs is handled... It's not that hard to lose a limb, particularly in a world where everyone is throwing around large masses of sharpened metal. Heavens forbid you lose an arm or a head when you just got murderized by a +1 Greatsword.

Sypher667
2013-01-19, 06:01 PM
You know how you can tell this is Cipher 'brew? Cause everyone is screaming "OP! NERF NOW!"

And I mean that in the nicest possible way. :smallsmile:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-19, 06:07 PM
Firstly, keep a consistent critical threat range and multiplier. Scaling damage is already taken into account with standard weapon scaling rules, and NO other weapon has anything else about it change aside from reach for reach weapons.

A colossal lightsaber used by a colossal Jedi against another colossal Jedi should be exactly the same as a medium lightsaber used by a medium Jedi against another medium Jedi. No reason the one should have an easier time critting, have a higher multiplier, or deal more damage.

Finally, the way you have it currently encourages min-maxing size shenanigans, which is VERY poor design.


I definitely disagree with the whole vorpal thing. It's ridiculous how severing limbs is handled... It's not that hard to lose a limb, particularly in a world where everyone is throwing around large masses of sharpened metal. Heavens forbid you lose an arm or a head when you just got murderized by a +1 Greatsword.

Perhaps. But still...I was reminded that Brilliant Energy is a +4 enhancement, not a +3. It's a somewhat weak +4, so we'll say your improvements (not ignoring dead and non-living matter) doesn't raise it to +5.

+4 costs a minimum of 5*5*2,000, or 50,000gp, minus the 2,000 for the base +1 weapon.

So 48,000 is our base cost for a standard weapon with your effect on it. Not 6,000: 48,000. You're giving over an 80% discount.

Now, for 6,500 gold, I can get a weapon that crits on an 18-20x3, forces a DC 30 Fortitude save, or causes limb loss and possible death. Disregarding everything else, this is ALSO tremendously overpowered. It forces the effect on a 15-20 with a single feat added.

Now, let's say the dispelling effect will cost 1/10th the normal price because it's limited to force effects. That's 3x15x1500 for a normal price, or 3x15x150 for our discount version. So 6,750 for that effect, or a minimum of 3,375 (I wouldn't price it at anything below 1/20th normal cost).

So we're now at a minimum of 51,375gp for the Brilliant Energy like effect and the dispelling alone (this is a Yellow lightsaber). That's being conservative with both costs.

Now, our limb-cutting effect can up a DC repeatedly, starting with a base of 15. The Assassin's Dagger increases save DCs by +1, and costs 18,000 for a +2 dagger, meaning the save increase is about 18,000-(2x2x2,000)gp, or 10,000gp per DC increase for a death effect. We'll be generous again and halve that, since our effect, while horrible (a bunch of almost save-or-lose), isn't ALWAYS death. So 5,000gp per save increase beyond 15. 1,000 would be the BARE minimum, and that would be WAY to powerful.

That's still not counting the huge cost increase for being the SINGLE BEST MELEE WEAPON AT ALL THINGS DAMAGE RELATED IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Which, previously, I suggested a +10,000 cost for to account for the effective 2 bonus feats. I think that's fair.

So you're currently undervaluing the BASE weapon by a factor of at least 10, and the crystals by a likewise huge amount.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-19, 06:22 PM
You know how you can tell this is Cipher 'brew? Cause everyone is screaming "OP! NERF NOW!"

And I mean that in the nicest possible way. :smallsmile:

That tends to be a sign that...well...the creation is overpowered. Many people on these forums have a very good sense of balance...myself included (tries to be both truthful and humble, and fails at the latter).

toapat
2013-01-19, 06:28 PM
Use this table please

Lightsaber
{table=head]Size|Damage|Critical|Weight|Cost

Fine|1|x2|.025|250gp

Diminutive|1d2|x2|.05|500gp

Tiny|1d4|x2|.5|1000gp

Small|1d6|x3|1.5|2000gp

Medium|2d6|18-20 x3|2.5|4000gp

Large|2d10|18-20 x4|5|8,000gp

Huge|4d8|16-20 x4|10|16,000gp

Gargantuan|8d8|14-20 x4|20|32,000gp

Colossal|10d10|14-20 x4|40|64,000gp[/table]

You made a mistake with sizing order, and you missed a size entirely.

as has been said, its a bit insane for damage scaling.

Considering that this weapon technically qualifies for Disciple of Dispater, i could threaten critical hits when i miss.

Gnorman
2013-01-19, 06:33 PM
Or this one, which scales appropriately:


Lightsaber
{table=head]Size|Damage|Critical|Weight|Cost

Fine|1d4|18-20 x2|.025|250gp

Diminutive|1d6|18-20 x2|.05|500gp

Tiny|1d8|18-20 x2|.5|1000gp

Small|1d10|18-20 x2|1.5|2000gp

Medium|2d6|18-20 x2|2.5|4000gp

Large|3d6|18-20 x2|5|8,000gp

Huge|4d6|18-20 x2|10|16,000gp

Gargantuan|6d6|18-20 x2|20|32,000gp

Colossal|8d6|18-20 x2|40|64,000gp[/table]

toapat
2013-01-19, 06:37 PM
Or this one, which scales appropriately:

I agree that the weapon shouldnt have a scaling critical from a balance perspective, however, its a beam of Plasma, when the weapon is large enough to engulf the target within the blade, i can see the logic of the critical scaling.

Gnorman
2013-01-19, 06:41 PM
I agree that the weapon shouldnt have a scaling critical from a balance perspective, however, its a beam of Plasma, when the weapon is large enough to engulf the target within the blade, i can see the logic of the critical scaling.

Why don't larger swords have larger critical modifiers, then? They have larger blades. The increase in damage potential because of the increased size is reflect by higher damage dice, not higher critical rate.

As Djinn mentioned, all other things being equal, this leads to battles between tiny jedi being plinkfests and those between colossal jedi being the jedi equivalent of rocket tag.

toapat
2013-01-19, 06:46 PM
As Djinn mentioned, all other things being equal, this leads to battles between tiny jedi being plinkfests and those between colossal jedi being rocket tag.

Fixed that for you.

but ya, from a conceptual standpoint i was talking, from a balance you should never have scaling critical multipliers.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-19, 08:18 PM
You know how you can tell this is Cipher 'brew? Cause everyone is screaming "OP! NERF NOW!"

And I mean that in the nicest possible way. :smallsmile:
I seem to attract those types, don't I?


Finally, the way you have it currently encourages min-maxing size shenanigans, which is VERY poor design.

And there you lost me.



You made a mistake with sizing order, and you missed a size entirely.

as has been said, its a bit insane for damage scaling.

Considering that this weapon technically qualifies for Disciple of Dispater, i could threaten critical hits when i miss.
No, I didn't include Fine. Not missed.
I did misplace Diminutive and Tiny though, it seems.


Or this one, which scales appropriately:


Lightsaber
{table=head]Size|Damage|Critical|Weight|Cost

Fine|1d4|18-20 x2|.025|250gp

Diminutive|1d6|18-20 x2|.05|500gp

Tiny|1d8|18-20 x2|.5|1000gp

Small|1d10|18-20 x2|1.5|2000gp

Medium|2d6|18-20 x2|2.5|4000gp

Large|3d6|18-20 x2|5|8,000gp

Huge|4d6|18-20 x2|10|16,000gp

Gargantuan|6d6|18-20 x2|20|32,000gp

Colossal|8d6|18-20 x2|40|64,000gp[/table]

I rather like my table. But I can fix the damage scaling I suppose... It's a massive beam of energy however, likely larger than houses at Colossal...



I agree that the weapon shouldnt have a scaling critical from a balance perspective, however, its a beam of Plasma, when the weapon is large enough to engulf the target within the blade, i can see the logic of the critical scaling.

Mm. A beam the size of buildings would most definitely easily score critical hits.

But not thinking about the little guys who should be outright disintegrated by a large blade, and just thinking size vs equal size, I can remove crit scale.

bobthe6th
2013-01-19, 09:05 PM
I mean... think a giants sword.... it is wider then a medium fighter is tall. Realistically, a sword would do exactly jack to stop it(a strong swing from something like that? snap like a twig), and his armor does the same. It should crit every time, as every blow should be taking off limbs/bisecting the target.

Then you realize giants don't even work(no, you can't be multiple stories tall and humanoid... not everything scales right).

The problems is that this is a game... and so we make the sacrifice of being perfectly realistic for being balanced and badass! If you couldn't throw a giant at the party without it shredding the party... it would be a sad sad day.

lunaramblings
2013-01-19, 09:28 PM
Again I ask since it seems to have been missed:

There is a D20 version of Star Wars. It has Lightsabers. Why not import the mechanics from that?

Cipher Stars
2013-01-19, 10:53 PM
Again I ask since it seems to have been missed:

There is a D20 version of Star Wars. It has Lightsabers. Why not import the mechanics from that?


I did not reply to the first because it seemed demeaning at the time. But with this second post it seems more sincere.

I've just looked at it before replying, The lightsaber there. Cheaper at 3,000, 2d8 damage, 19-20 crit, ignores damage reduction- which from there translates to using a touch attack here it seems. Essentially just as I have it here, I just said fk you balance and made a usage with which to sever limbs, and a separate crystal mechanic with which to further individualize lightsabers.


All in all I say the only real difference is my lightsabers deal less damage (unless using a Red crystal potentially) but have nastier and more satisfying critical hits. Meanwhile you can also customize my lightsabers.
Though I don't have a double lightsaber yet.

lunaramblings
2013-01-19, 11:01 PM
I did not reply to the first because it seemed demeaning at the time. But with this second post it seems more sincere.

I've just looked at it before replying, The lightsaber there. Cheaper at 3,000, 2d8 damage, 19-20 crit, ignores damage reduction- which from there translates to using a touch attack here it seems. Essentially just as I have it here, I just said fk you balance and made a usage with which to sever limbs, and a separate crystal mechanic with which to further individualize lightsabers.


All in all I say the only real difference is my lightsabers deal less damage (unless using a Red crystal potentially) but have nastier and more satisfying critical hits. Meanwhile you can also customize my lightsabers.
Though I don't have a double lightsaber yet.

They use the Armor as DR Rules, which if you weren't using, I would simply ignore. There is a side bar in one of the Star Wars books about using Armor as AC and how to convert stuff, or maybe it was in one of the old articles on Wizards... Hrm. Either way, I would ignore it if not using the same optional rule, which I believe can be found in Unearthed Arcana.

I was not trying to be demeaning at all. It just seems like a lot of work to reinvent the wheel when there is one that works just fine.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-20, 12:52 PM
I seem to attract those types, don't I?

Due to the imbalance either directly inherent (as in this thread) or inherited by the impact on the game world (in your Timeless Ring thread), yes, you will attract these types.

Mainly because you haven't yet grasped the balance of 3.5, as evidenced by the number of quite knowledgeable homebrewers who I've seen tell you things aren't balanced. We aren't talking out our behinds here. Many of us have a very good sense of 3.5 balance. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:


And there you lost me.

If larger weapons scale in damage AND crit AND crit multiplier, you've put a higher premium than usual on gaining access to those larger sizes, so PCs will be more inclined to use Giant Size, Enlarge Person, and other means of reaching those size categories. When they do, their gains will be exponential rather than linear, which is problematic.

Also, you haven't yet addressed my point that 6,500 GP can gain you a super-powerful weapon which, with a single feat, can threaten a DC 30 Fortitude save prior to level 10 on 30% of possible attacks. Nor the math I've shown that this weapon is undervalued by a factor of at least 10, and probably more.

Why on earth do you consider this balanced as presented? What is your reasoning behind it? I'm honestly curious.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-20, 05:35 PM
If larger weapons scale in damage AND crit AND crit multiplier, you've


Sorry, you lost me because I found the tone of your post distasteful. Not because I didn't understand anything you said until that point, after which I made the conscious choice to ignore the rest of your post and move on to posts that didn't smite my interest with a silver ruler.

I lack the patients to deal with such posts lately, but I apologize none the less if this is insulting at all.

PEACH
2013-01-20, 07:21 PM
While I recognize there is not a PEACH tag calling me or others into this thread specifically to critique the lightsaber, there is very little reason to post homebrew on these forums if you are unwilling to hear negative criticism. Djinn was being as respectful as he could be while also pointing out that your weapon is entirely unbalanced. If you ignore all posts that criticize your homebrew because their "tone" is, well, critical, then you will be ignoring most of the worthwhile responses to homebrew threads on these forums.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-20, 07:48 PM
Sorry, you lost me because I found the tone of your post distasteful. Not because I didn't understand anything you said until that point, after which I made the conscious choice to ignore the rest of your post and move on to posts that didn't smite my interest with a silver ruler.

Ah. My apologies. That was not the intent. Please note that there is a big difference between utilizing poor design and being a poor designer, and further between either of those and being a poor person. Exponentially rewarding min-maxing (through size tricks, in this case) is an example of poor design that I was pointing out so you could correct it and avoid such issues in the future: my goal is not to offend, but rather to be honest in my appraisal and to help people either improve their creations, or to help them learn from their mistakes and become better designers overall.

My apologies if I sometimes seem abrasive, but please be aware that such abrasiveness is directed at the homebrew, NOT the homebrewer. Do I feel your design is misguided in this particular case? Yes. Do I feel you're worthy of disdain or insults as a result? Not at all. If I DID feel that way, I would never have taken the pains that I did to look up cost approximations of similar abilities, nor attempted to show what I feel are the problems with the design and WHY I feel that way. My only goal here is to offer insight into potential design flaws, balance issues, and so forth. I like seeing designers improve their creations.

I would recommend reading through my posts with this in mind: I come on these forums to help others with their projects and to help them grow as designers, not to shoot down ideas without offering insight into why I feel they don't work as presented. I may harshly critique the implementation of an idea, but all that means is that I feel you've struck out in your mechanics. It doesn't mean I disrespect you as a person or as a designer: after all, we've all made mistakes, and we can all improve. I guess I critique as I'd hope others critique me: I feel pointing out issues is superior to saying "nice work." It shows others like my work or me enough to be willing to help me improve.

Now, if you only posted to get praise or support of the current implementation, then my apologies, and I will happily leave the thread and level my comments out of it. I tend, however, to assume (correctly, I think, in this case) that homebrew posted here is looking for constructive criticism, and, yes, that include pointing out design decisions which are poorly made so that people can rethink, revise, and polish their creations to be well-balance and well-implemented within the system. It's what I'd want pointed out to me: my sincere apologies if you feel differently. That said, how would you rather have had me broach the subject? I'll admit my critiquing style tends towards the brutally honest and forthright, which doesn't work for everyone.

Sincerely,
The Djinn

Cipher Stars
2013-01-20, 09:16 PM
While I recognize there is not a PEACH tag calling me or others into this thread specifically to critique the lightsaber, there is very little reason to post homebrew on these forums if you are unwilling to hear negative criticism. Djinn was being as respectful as he could be while also pointing out that your weapon is entirely unbalanced. If you ignore all posts that criticize your homebrew because their "tone" is, well, critical, then you will be ignoring most of the worthwhile responses to homebrew threads on these forums.
There is useful, helpful, and informative criticism. "Criticism" does not have to be presented rudely or even too bluntly, simple word substitutions can change the way information is conveyed in a helpful manner which does not offend.
If it is so worthwhile, maybe it should be presented kindly. I remember getting at least one or two huge text walls that I'm sure probably had a good point in them somewhere, but it was riddled with complaints and insults. Those were definitely not worthwhile.

Meanwhile, I post what I make because I want to make it. I do not post anything so people can say I do a **** job or that everything of mine is ****, which people, more often than should be human, have outright said.

I'm perfectly open to "negative" criticism so long as it is presented in a neat manner. I don't mean "sugar coating", I mean avoiding being an ass- not to say anyone was being an ass in this thread. I've long since learned to avoid putting Peach in titles, because too often do I get sour apples instead.




I don't particularly mind any of the comments that have been said in this thread, simply said I avoided responding to a few posts because of my unstable and moody nature as of late. So I skipped them.






Now, if you only posted to get praise or support of the current implementation, then my apologies, and I will happily leave the thread and level my comments out of it.

I post things because I want to make them, nothing more, nothing less. Of course I like having a more finished creation that has seem some polish, but when I'm just trying to do something I like, I really find it when people post seemingly only to insult you- as has happened to me around five memorable times.




That said, how would you rather have had me broach the subject? I'll admit my critiquing style tends towards the brutally honest and forthright, which doesn't work for everyone.


Well, you could skip being "blunt" and go straight to why something is incorrect or poorly done" "The critical scaling you have is easily abused through size tricks". If that was said from the beginning without so much... bluntness, I would have gotten the conclusion that I did poorly myself and correct it if it was something that wasn't something too intended.

I'm sure no one else cares if you're blunt though. I'm just touchy recently and I'm not sure why.


I compare this site to another similar site, called The Nexus. Like how GITP is home of people who create things for tabletop games and what not, The Nexus is home to people who create things for PC games such as Skyrim.
There people comment and suggest fixes all the time, but it's always done in a neat way. You actually get banned for posting nothing but rude or posting too harshly towards an author of a mod. I guess I'm just use to that.

All this said, I don't feel offended at all with anything in this thread. I just feel... drained in general.

bobthe6th
2013-01-20, 09:28 PM
Well, you could skip being "blunt" and go straight to why something is incorrect or poorly done" "The critical scaling you have is easily abused through size tricks". If that was said from the beginning without so much... bluntness, I would have gotten the conclusion that I did poorly myself and correct it if it was something that wasn't something too intended.


first post after your's


well... um.... this makes size increasing choices really good. Also the crit rates get stupid.


just saying...

SyntaxError
2013-01-20, 10:01 PM
You might want to look at some of the lightsaber crystals in SW Saga Edition, especially in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide and the Jedi Academy Training Manual. While a lot of them don't translate over too well because of their impact on force abilities, you could change those to affect spellcasting or psionics, or even grant special abilities to the wielder. There are also quite a few alternate kinds of lightsabers in there, lightwips and lightsaber pikes would be especially fun.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-01-20, 11:52 PM
Alright. As politely and concise as possible:


The entire item (crystal included) costs less than the lowest price possible for the touch-attack effect alone (around 12,000gp for permanent Wraith Strike). This is a price widely regarded as as overpowered as letting an at-will True Strike effect cost a mere 2,000gp. Using more balanced prices in my earlier analysis, you've underpriced it by a factor of at least 10, and more likely 20+.
The item's scaling breaks all the pre-established rules for weapon size scaling.
The crystals scale to high for gold alone, allowing impossibly high save DCs at very low levels.
With improved critical, 30% of all attacks force a save-or-suck condition that few spells can recover, at potentially astronomical DCs, and little to no other recourse.
The weapon has no downsides, and thus, as soon as it can be purchased, invalidates all other melee weapon options. It's that good.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-21, 12:37 AM
The entire item (crystal included) costs less than a tenth of the lowest price possible for the touch-attack effect alone.

I don't really like the confines of things such as price.

As both a player and a DM at times, I find the idea intolerable that a game or plot would be held back because an item isn't within WBL. From a DM standpoint, if I want to give something to a player it's cost means nothing compared to how it may drive the game or the character's development.

Price is merely at best a suggestion.
The prices listed here would be geared more towards games in which lightsabers are well known and potentially commonplace, every character of a certain type of character class or classes having one of some variation.


It's not like any of this is Core, anyone who uses it would have to ask their DM anyway.




The item's scaling breaks all the pre-established rules for weapon size scaling.

I don't think this is any issue anymore. :smallconfused:


The crystals scale to high for gold alone, allowing impossibly high save DCs at very low levels.

Extended the section on crystal purity.



With improved critical, 30% of all attacks force a save-or-suck condition that few spells can recover, at potentially astronomical DCs, and little to no other recourse.

Sounds lethal. In a setting where Lightsabers would be in effect, various forms of firearms be them energy based as well or simple projectile such as basic guns are likely to be found. All of which use touch attacks as well, and are ranged weapons.
This would balance it I think, for melee to be very dangerous meanwhile ranged is dangerous as well- and has advantages due to being at range.



The weapon has no downsides, and thus, as soon as it can be purchased, invalidates all other melee weapon options. It's that good.

I would imagine that's the point of being allowed a lightsaber.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-21, 12:54 AM
I don't really like the confines of things such as price.

As both a player and a DM at times, I find the idea intolerable that a game or plot would be held back because an item isn't within WBL. From a DM standpoint, if I want to give something to a player it's cost means nothing compared to how it may drive the game or the character's development.

Price is merely at best a suggestion.
The prices listed here would be geared more towards games in which lightsabers are well known and potentially commonplace, every character of a certain type of character class or classes having one of some variation.


It's not like any of this is Core, anyone who uses it would have to ask their DM anyway.



I don't think this is any issue anymore. :smallconfused:

Extended the section on crystal purity.


Sounds lethal. In a setting where Lightsabers would be in effect, various forms of firearms be them energy based as well or simple projectile such as basic guns are likely to be found. All of which use touch attacks as well, and are ranged weapons.
This would balance it I think, for melee to be very dangerous meanwhile ranged is dangerous as well- and has advantages due to being at range.


I would imagine that's the point of being allowed a lightsaber.

It would have been shorter just to tell Djinn that you're not interested in critique, since you don't appear to be accepting any.

PEACH
2013-01-21, 12:56 AM
There is little point to creating an item for a specific system if you are going to ignore all design considerations inherent to that system.

You want lightsabers to be lethal melee weapons that are not particularly hard to access if you are trained in them. That's fine. However, not particularly hard to access and better than all common weapons are not well suited to D&D 3.5, and so it makes little sense to make homebrew for 3.5 in that situation.

EDIT: Also, the idea of WBL holding back a campaign exists... but not for this item. There can be plenty of plot artifacts or world considerations (everybody has wings!) that break wealth by level in some fashion in order to tell an interesting story. This breaks WBL only in order to give everybody a really powerful sword that happens to be called a lightsaber. I can think of very few situations, all of them extremely contrived, where "not having a weapon that is strictly superior to all common weapons" is ever relevant, let alone relevant enough that making them ubiquitous enough they're really cheap is an effective solution.

Cipher Stars
2013-01-21, 12:37 PM
If I don't want to change something, I don't want to change something. I don't want to change the price any higher, and I'm not "nerfing" anything here. That did not mean I'm not open to suggestions or ideas for expanding on them, but to hell with it. Fine. I wont accept anything resembling critique anymore.
Case closed, moving on.

Lord_Gareth
2013-01-21, 01:07 PM
If I don't want to change something, I don't want to change something. I don't want to change the price any higher, and I'm not "nerfing" anything here. That did not mean I'm not open to suggestions or ideas for expanding on them, but to hell with it. Fine. I wont accept anything resembling critique anymore.
Case closed, moving on.

Now next time, put this kind of thing in the opening post. Time and again experienced homebrewers reach out to offer you help, only to receive your scorn and derision in return. If you don't want critique, either A. don't post the content or B. if you do post it, say you don't want critique. This forum assumes that all content is up for discussion and improvement unless otherwise specified.