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4th number
2013-01-24, 03:02 PM
For those not in the know: In D&D Next (5e playtest) there's a very elegant concept that can represent a character being in a good or bad place that particular round-- they might have just pulled off a cool stunt, or they might be fatigued, or trying to hit a target that's prone, or whatever. If they have Advantage, they roll 2d20 and take the higher result. If they have Disadvantage, they roll 2d20 and take the lower result.

This is a real numerical advantage, but not overpowering. Here's a chart: http://i.imgur.com/8d8AT6c.png

So, Pathfinder. Aside from the "cool stunt" scenario to gain Advantage, the mechanic could be used in other ways. Flanking might grant Advantage instead of a +2. A failed combat maneuver could grant an opponent Advantage, and a successful one might give them Disadvantage.

It's such a cool rule that I wanna use it. What other ways could it be used in Pathfinder or 3.5? (or, why shouldn't it be used?)

AttilaTheGeek
2013-01-24, 06:15 PM
Off topic- how did you generate that table? (I'm in a stat class, but not very good at it)

4th number
2013-01-24, 08:08 PM
Off topic- how did you generate that table? (I'm in a stat class, but not very good at it)

I swiped it from somewhere else. :smallcool:

Amechra
2013-01-24, 08:14 PM
I remember making similar tables by hand.

Ah, good times...

Tanuki Tales
2013-01-24, 08:54 PM
I'm actually using these as part of my House Rules from now on. :smallbiggrin:

These are examples I gave for when to apply either:


Examples for Advantage

Attempting to bullrush a creature that is currently standing on a smooth or slick downward slope.
Attempting to hold shut a door while under the effects of a Bull’s Strength spell.
Attempting to influence an ogre to let you pass by while offering a large sack of meat in return.

Examples for Disadvantage

Attempting to climb up a rope that is wet.
Attempting any physical check while below one quarter health.
Attempting any kind of roll while under the effects of the Bestow Curse spell.

4th number
2013-01-24, 09:04 PM
Attempting any physical check while below one quarter health.

YES! This is it-- the simple solution for representing injury mechanically in d20. I love it.

Tanuki Tales
2013-01-24, 09:07 PM
YES! This is it-- the simple solution for representing injury mechanically in d20. I love it.

Feel free to also have it apply with attack rolls as well. I'm going to be field testing these for the first time with my game that I'm putting together currently, so I'm not having it go that far yet.

ErrantX
2013-01-24, 09:30 PM
Feel free to also have it apply with attack rolls as well. I'm going to be field testing these for the first time with my game that I'm putting together currently, so I'm not having it go that far yet.

Yes, I will be doing the same tomorrow night myself. This is a neat idea!

-X

4th number
2013-01-24, 11:24 PM
Tell us how it went at the table. If it's not a complete disaster, I think I'll start inflicting it on my players, at least the in-person ones.

Debihuman
2013-01-25, 05:12 AM
In 3.5 the ease or difficulty of a situation is assigned by the DM. If I want to reflect an easy situation, I can assign DC 5 or 10 and PCs can Take 10 or Take 20 depending on the situation. If I want to make it more difficult, I simply raise the DC. Adding more rolls slows things down.

I want to be the one who decides whether the roll is good enough not a random roll. This takes the fun out of it. Of course, if you are unable to figure out how to assign DCs appropriately, this makes it a little easier.

Debby

iTookUrNick
2013-01-25, 10:27 AM
Regarding the stat table:

Disadvantage:
Just by looking at the table, it is possible to see how in order to hit a target n you must achieve said result on both dices. Therefore, the probability of this happening is n/20 * n/20 = n^2/400, or n^2/4 in %.

Advantage:
It's easier to calculate the possibility of missing a target n. Again, we can immediately see how the probability of missing a target n is ((n-1)^2 )/400. Therefore, the % probability of hitting must be 100-((n-1)^2)/4).

Tanuki Tales
2013-01-25, 07:53 PM
I want to be the one who decides whether the roll is good enough not a random roll. This takes the fun out of it. Of course, if you are unable to figure out how to assign DCs appropriately, this makes it a little easier.

Debby

That's not how Advantage/Disadvantage works. The concept of DCs is still there; they just flatly cap out at ~25-30 in most cases at their most difficult. Mind you, this is coupled with the removal of skill ranks and tying everything into just ability modifiers.

TuggyNE
2013-01-25, 08:57 PM
Off topic- how did you generate that table? (I'm in a stat class, but not very good at it)

Well, AnyDice (http://anydice.com/program/1cab/at_least/graph/) could do this sort of thing nicely too. :smallwink:

4th number
2013-01-26, 12:43 AM
Well, AnyDice (http://anydice.com/program/1cab/at_least/graph/) could do this sort of thing nicely too. :smallwink:

You're my hero.

ErrantX
2013-01-26, 01:11 PM
Tell us how it went at the table. If it's not a complete disaster, I think I'll start inflicting it on my players, at least the in-person ones.

My players rather liked it. They used in an encounter where they were sneaking into an orc camp filled with worgs and a few giants that the camp had befriended. The party used their spells, skills and smarts to their best advantage and kept Advantage most of the night, but both NPC and PC endured both Advantage and Disadvantage. Overall, I think everyone liked it a lot and I think we're going to keep using it. I found that it easier than assigning negative mods to rolls, it kept the math simple and clean.

I think my party for the foreseeable future will be using this.

-X

Kasbark
2013-01-26, 05:27 PM
I use it extensively in my homebrew. I changed a bunch of conditions because i wanted fewer 'save or you can't participate in (the next 2 hours worth of) combat' rolls.

Here are some examples:

Fascinated:

A fascinated creature is continuously distracted, loosing focus every few seconds. It is denied his Dex bonus to AC, is at a disadvantage when attacking and grants Advantage to anyone attacking it. As soon as a Fascinated creature has been hit by an attack, it is no longer Fascinated and cannot become Fascinated again for 1 hour.

Nauseated:

Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress and grant Advantage to anyone attacking it.

Panicked:

A panicked creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. In addition, a Frightened creature is at a Disadvantage when attacking anyone, and grants Advantage to anyone attacking it. Lastly, a Panicked creature that attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check DC 15+spell level or loose the spell.

Yitzi
2013-01-26, 08:46 PM
It's an interesting idea; it does mean that the properties in question have a substantially stronger effect on more up-in-the-air cases as compared to a +2 bonus (for a 50% chance, they're worth a +5 or -5 bonus, but when your chance is already near-certain one way or the other, there's more like +1 or -1). The result is that advantages are better for improving your odds, but not so good for making the unfeasible have a chance or eliminating that last small chance of failure.

Whether that's a good or bad thing is more of a question of taste.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-01-27, 10:40 AM
You could even include "improved advantage" and "weakened disadvantage", where you roll 3d20 and take the best/worst. That would be like a binomial distribution; the chance of rolling above X with improved advantage would be 1-((X/20)^3), and the chance of rolling above X with weakened disadvantage would be (1-X/20)^3 if I've done my math right. You could apply it to attacking a panicked creature, or other things like that where a regular Advantage or Disadvantage isn't big enough.

Kane0
2013-01-27, 05:05 PM
The Advantage rule is such a cool little tool, i use it in my games a lot too.

-Charging grants advantage to the attack
-The save feats allow you to make that save at advantage 1/day
-Flanking is the normal +2, but going for an unaware opponent (flatfooted or helpless) grants advantage instead of targetting a different kind of ac
-Instead of targettig touch ac, you get advantage
-Certain classes get to roll certain skills at advantage a number of times per day (mostly martial classes using athletics or acrobatics, but rogues get to pick a class skill to use at advantage and warlocks/artificers get umd at advantage)
-some ToB maneuvers grant advantage on rolls instead of flat bonuses
-conditions bestow advantage or disadvantage instead of or in addition to some of te original effects, to allow you to keepfighting in most cases instead of being totally useless for the duration
-whenever the DMs situational +/-2 just wont cut it

TuggyNE
2013-01-27, 10:06 PM
You could even include "improved advantage" and "weakened disadvantage", where you roll 3d20 and take the best/worst. That would be like a binomial distribution; the chance of rolling above X with improved advantage would be 1-((X/20)^3), and the chance of rolling above X with weakened disadvantage would be (1-X/20)^3 if I've done my math right. You could apply it to attacking a panicked creature, or other things like that where a regular Advantage or Disadvantage isn't big enough.

Hmm, yeah. Graph (http://anydice.com/program/1cd1/at_least/graph).