Alignment Shift

[asdflove]

Book 1: How low can you go


I must be insane. Doing 2 fancomics, but the idea hit me, and I can't forget it, so this happened. Hopefully I can keep up with them both.

Current Comic- 14. Meet Evie!http://i.imgur.com/QZQwE1q.png

Site (http://fletcherrpggames.com/comic2/)

Banners-
http://i917.photobucket.com/albums/ad13/asdfcute/ASBanner1_zpsa9a8599d.png (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271312)

[asdflove]

Updated before I even got a view in the thread, that's just sad.

... To be fair, I made the 2nd comic while waiting for the thread to be approved...

[TaiLiu]

I admit it: I'm speechless about this comic. Speechless as in 'I don't know what to say; why don't I know; why?!' sort of speechless. It's not a bad speechless, nor a good one.

I just don't know what to think of your comic, I guess.

[Andre]

Red eyes, how can he not notice those red eyes? Eh, right... he ain't looking at her eyes. :smallamused:

[Prince Zahn]

2 comics at the same time? Bold move Asdflove.
But sure, I could use a change of scenery, Let's see what comes of it:smallwink:

Oh, and most importantly - never forget the shameless advertising! It's the best part of running multiple online things at once! :smallbiggrin:

[asdflove]

Red eyes, how can he not notice those red eyes? Eh, right... he ain't looking at her eyes. :smallamused:
Are you referring to the cover?


I admit it: I'm speechless about this comic. Speechless as in 'I don't know what to say; why don't I know; why?!' sort of speechless. It's not a bad speechless, nor a good one.

I just don't know what to think of your comic, I guess.

We're only 2 comics in. Nothing has even happened yet. I can understand why you don't have any thing to say.



2 comics at the same time? Bold move Asdflove.
But sure, I could use a change of scenery, Let's see what comes of it:smallwink:

Oh, and most importantly - never forget the shameless advertising! It's the best part of running multiple online things at once! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I must be crazy, but since I was able to update them both within a day of each other, I think I can handle it.

[Andre]

Are you referring to the cover?

Nay, to the smoked mackerels with orange recipe!
*cough* Anyway, yeah, the cover. Just an harmless joke. :smallwink:

[asdflove]

Nay, to the smoked mackerels with orange recipe!
*cough* Anyway, yeah, the cover. Just an harmless joke. :smallwink:

I figured it was a joke, I just had to be sure that was what you were referring to.

If you're curious, he's really more of "why is she taking off my cloak!" then actually paying attention to what she looks like, whether it be her eyes or her other *cough* assets.

[Andre]

I see. Still, not looking into a woman's eyes again proves to be an extremely dangerous (hilarious tho) thing to do.

At any rate, you got me following, let's see where this leads. It looks interesting.

[Razanir]

My honest critique? I think it's a neat idea, but red TNR on black is really hard to read. I caught next to nothing from the first page, and want to know what her suggestion was on the second

[asdflove]

My honest critique? I think it's a neat idea, but red TNR on black is really hard to read. I caught next to nothing from the first page, and want to know what her suggestion was on the second
I based the red-on black off of Quarr.

And what is TNR? It bugs me when people use acronyms I don't know.

The suggestion was, "Turn back around and pretend you never saw me."


I see. Still, not looking into a woman's eyes again proves to be an extremely dangerous (hilarious tho) thing to do.

At any rate, you got me following, let's see where this leads. It looks interesting.

Yes, yes it does.

Yay! A follower!

[asdflove]

Updated.


If anyone was curious, she had a vaguely New York-esk accent before she started acting.

And if I didn't make it obvious with "Blimey" They have a English Accent.

[Razanir]

And what is TNR? It bugs me when people use acronyms I don't know.

Times New Roman. I don't know for a fact it's the font you used, most serif fonts just look the same to me. Point is, I'd advise switching to a different font without to many narrow strokes. Try Ariel or *gasp* Comic Sans

[asdflove]

Times New Roman. I don't know for a fact it's the font you used, most serif fonts just look the same to me. Point is, I'd advise switching to a different font without to many narrow strokes. Try Ariel or *gasp* Comic Sans

Inkscape just calls it... Serif. No seriously, it's just serif.
I'll consider switching.

[AcerbicOrb]

This is pretty good. I look forward to seeing more. I like the way the paladin woman was clearly getting jealous.

[asdflove]

Updated :smallbiggrin:

[AcerbicOrb]

Oooh, she's having doubts... Can't wait for the next update! Oh, and you forgot to change the number of the current strip spoiler.

[leakingpen]

Its feels a bit jumpy! but interesting looking story.

[asdflove]

Its feels a bit jumpy! but interesting looking story.

SQUEEEEEE! THE WRITER FOR ANTI-HEROS COMMENTED ON MY FANCOMIC!
*cough* Sorry, I just love anti-HEROs.

Anyways, thanks. Jumpy how?

[Seer_of_Heart]

:smallconfused: Is it just me or is the first page of the comic down?

[asdflove]

:smallconfused: Is it just me or is the first page of the comic down?

It loads for me, but I can move to Imgur,and hopefully that will work for you.

[asdflove]

Updated :smallbiggrin:

[AcerbicOrb]

Awesome! Keep it up!

[Prince Zahn]

Awwwww... :smallsmile:
Why am I getting the feeling that this little girl is just one of the many factors that will complicate Tiffany's seemingly simple task?:smallconfused::smallamused:

[asdflove]

Awesome! Keep it up!
Thanks

Awwwww... :smallsmile:
Why am I getting the feeling that this little girl is just one of the many factors that will complicate Tiffany's seemingly simple task?:smallconfused::smallamused:
Because you know how to recognize a plot.
You must have some sort of bonus on your spot check if it is relating to plots. :smalltongue:

[Prince Zahn]

Because you know how to recognize a plot.
You must have some sort of bonus on your spot check if it is relating to plots. :smalltongue:

I have the biggest modifier of them all!
It's called a nat 20.:smallbiggrin:

[AcerbicOrb]

It's a shame this was abandoned.

[Andre]

Funny that she doesn't have Skill Focus on her third *cough* perform skill.

[asdflove]

Funny that she doesn't have Skill Focus on her third *cough* perform skill.

She doesn't need it. :smalltongue:
Also, it's a thing. I'm pretty sure it's in the BoEF. (I refuse to spell that title out. It's too weird.)

[asdflove]

Updated.
Sorry about the JPEG-ness of it. Imgur is being stupid and turned it into a JPEG. Several times.

[AcerbicOrb]

Phew, thought this was abandoned. Great as usual!

[asdflove]

Phew, thought this was abandoned. Great as usual!

A few days without updating= Abandoned?

Huh? No. Not at all. In fact since my other fancomic got a double update, I'm doing one here too. Expect another comic tomorrow-ish.

[Seer_of_Heart]

It still says comic 5 in the thread. Shouldn't that be changed to 6?

[leakingpen]

SQUEEEEEE! THE WRITER FOR ANTI-HEROS COMMENTED ON MY FANCOMIC!
*cough* Sorry, I just love anti-HEROs.

Anyways, thanks. Jumpy how?

Aww, yer gonna make me blush. Glad you enjoy it! It was a quality comic before I came on board, I'm just trying to keep it flowing.


Part of the problem was I missed the first comic, my fault, so I started with go away little girl. But, jumpy in that it is moving from scene to scene, kinda fast. Some people go for that, and a big issue is that you've got a lot of text, because you're setting up a lot of story. What you have currently could have been done in a few more pages, ease into the transitions. It makes it feel kinda frantic. But now that I reread it, I guess our leading lady is a bit of the fast paced frantic type, so maybe that feeling is a good thing? :)


Also, is she upset the bartender ignored her?

[asdflove]

Aww, yer gonna make me blush. Glad you enjoy it! It was a quality comic before I came on board, I'm just trying to keep it flowing.


Part of the problem was I missed the first comic, my fault, so I started with go away little girl. But, jumpy in that it is moving from scene to scene, kinda fast. Some people go for that, and a big issue is that you've got a lot of text, because you're setting up a lot of story. What you have currently could have been done in a few more pages, ease into the transitions. It makes it feel kinda frantic. But now that I reread it, I guess our leading lady is a bit of the fast paced frantic type, so maybe that feeling is a good thing? :)


Also, is she upset the bartender ignored her?

Sure, Zarah was great, but you've done excellent carrying it on.

I see what you mean. Yeah, these first few strips are all exposition and set up for the main plot, so I guess it's moving kinda fast right this moment. It'll be slowing down soon.

No, that's not why she's upset at all, though she did expect a reaction from him. I say nothing more, or I'll risk spoiling the plot.


It still says comic 5 in the thread. Shouldn't that be changed to 6?

Yeah, fixed now.

[Incom]

The bartender is the demon dude from the first strip. Calling it now.

[asdflove]

The bartender is the demon dude from the first strip. Calling it now.

I-Well- I shall say nothing. Other wise I'd accidentally spoil things.

[asdflove]

Updated. :smallbiggrin:

[leakingpen]

silly mook, exposition to an empty room is for villains!


May I suggest linking to an update in the post where you tell us there is an update? Saves having to go back to page one ;)

[asdflove]

silly mook, exposition to an empty room is for villains!


May I suggest linking to an update in the post where you tell us there is an update? Saves having to go back to page one ;)

Well, she is Chaotic Evil.

I'll keep that in mind next time I update.

[asdflove]

Updated. :smallbiggrin:

[Incom]

You didn't link to the update, heehee.

For the record, I think this is the better of your two comics :P

Looked through the archive. Seems like Nedan has a lot of stuff named after him. Gonna go with the whole "barkeeps are retired adventurers" thing here (which would explain why he thought our protagonist was a succubus--he's probably run into them before and recognized the behavior patterns--and Tiff got a lucky bluff check with that reaction).

(Actually, would you rather me put speculation in spoilers? I know that was a thing for OOTS for a while though it got retired eventually...)

[asdflove]

You didn't link to the update, heehee.

For the record, I think this is the better of your two comics :P

Looked through the archive. Seems like Nedan has a lot of stuff named after him. Gonna go with the whole "barkeeps are retired adventurers" thing here (which would explain why he thought our protagonist was a succubus--he's probably run into them before and recognized the behavior patterns--and Tiff got a lucky bluff check with that reaction).

(Actually, would you rather me put speculation in spoilers? I know that was a thing for OOTS for a while though it got retired eventually...)

You don't need to put speculation in spoliers. I would read it either way.

Nedan is to this city as the 12 gods are to Azure City. If that tells you anything.:smalltongue:
And what gives you the idea she passed a bluff check?

And hush on the linking to the update thing. People forget things.

[Prince Zahn]

You don't need to put speculation in spoliers. I would read it either way.

Nedan is to this city as the 12 gods are to Azure City. If that tells you anything.:smalltongue:
And what gives you the idea she passed a bluff check?

And hush on the linking to the update thing. People forget things.

*overheard and recalled*:smallamused:
A Grammar Police Department moment:
Panel 5: "–but I know what you fiend!" is incorrect, try adding a word or two in there, maybe punctuation.
–but I know what you are, fiend!
–but I know what you're up to, fiend!"
...
*Sigh* could be capitalized, IIRC.
INGLESH EEZ HÆRD!:smalltongue:
I'd like to see more of this barkeep.
I'm gonna take a bolder move with 2 guesses:
1.maybe not an adventurer, per se, but perhaps a character who lost alot to a devil/demon or some other evil outsider being with a sterling silver tongue, and became most certainly a powerful spellcaster so he could keep things safe.
2.Dude sold his soul to a devil once(or had his soul sold before his time), got his wishes, but now tries to spend his life redeeming himself before it's too late, which in the process got him to epic(if not high-leveled) divine magic, maybe over the years he would sprout a sharp tongue or maybe it was part of his infernal gift?

Any, none, or all of this may be true, but regardless I've got an interesting concept going:smalltongue:

[asdflove]

*overheard and recalled*:smallamused:
A Grammar Police Department moment:
Panel 5: "–but I know what you fiend!" is incorrect, try adding a word or two in there, maybe punctuation.
–but I know what you are, fiend!
–but I know what you're up to, fiend!"
...
*Sigh* could be capitalized, IIRC.
INGLESH EEZ HÆRD!:smalltongue:
I'd like to see more of this barkeep.
I'm gonna take a bolder move with 2 guesses:
1.maybe not an adventurer, per se, but perhaps a character who lost alot to a devil/demon or some other evil outsider being with a sterling silver tongue, and became most certainly a powerful spellcaster so he could keep things safe.
2.Dude sold his soul to a devil once(or had his soul sold before his time), got his wishes, but now tries to spend his life redeeming himself before it's too late, which in the process got him to epic(if not high-leveled) divine magic, maybe over the years he would sprout a sharp tongue or maybe it was part of his infernal gift?

Any, none, or all of this may be true, but regardless I've got an interesting concept going:smalltongue:

I left out the word are on accident, and I was too lazy to fix it. To throw the grammar police back at you, a lot is two words.

Interesting theory. I will tell you one thing though. His ECL is epic, but his actual character level, isn't.
Though it's damn close.

[Incom]

re: passed a bluff check
Third-to-last panel.

Careful not to give too much away now. :P

Barkeep has two casting aura colors, fwiw.

[asdflove]

re: passed a bluff check
Third-to-last panel.

Careful not to give too much away now. :P

Barkeep has two casting aura colors, fwiw.

And that gives you that idea, how?

Congrats, you know how to pay attention!

[Incom]

And that gives you that idea, how?

Congrats, you know how to pay attention!

Well, what kind of person
1. Sees his buddy the paladin (I'm assuming they're at least acquainted since Barkeep knows Lucas' name) hanging out with a succubus
2. Confronts the succubus in a restroom and flips out at her
3. Lets her off with a warning

Then again, I suppose he'd look pretty bad if there were the sounds of a scuffle coming out of the womens' room and he just kinda walks out... ehhhh. You win this one.

(I get the impression I'm annoying you.)

[asdflove]

Well, what kind of person
1. Sees his buddy the paladin (I'm assuming they're at least acquainted since Barkeep knows Lucas' name) hanging out with a succubus
2. Confronts the succubus in a restroom and flips out at her
3. Lets her off with a warning

Then again, I suppose he'd look pretty bad if there were the sounds of a scuffle coming out of the womens' room and he just kinda walks out... ehhhh. You win this one.

(I get the impression I'm annoying you.)

Not at all, I just didn't understand how you thought she succeeded at a bluff check, when he cut her off everytime she tried to bluff.
He planned on just warning her the entire time, and almost let his temper get the best of him.

[Prince Zahn]

I left out the word "are" on accident, and I was too lazy to fix it. To throw the grammar police back at you, a lot is two words. AAAUURGH! How could I miss that?
Fine, I'll accept my ticket.
But - I should point out they are right on your case again for not placing the "are" in quotation marks.:smallamused:
There are no winners in "grammar wars"; Shall we call it a ceasefire?:smallwink:


Interesting theory. I will tell you one thing though. His ECL is epic, but his actual characterclass level, isn't.
Though it's damn close.
FTFY.
Alright, so "close" could mean either:

Near level 21 between what looks like multiple spellcasting classes(could be multiple schools of magic too!), with a level adjustment race to push it just over the edge.
Near level 21 between two or more spellcasting classes(quite possibly both benefiting from Charisma) with a high level adjustment race or template(such as celestial, to name one)[probably around ECL 25+].
Power being [LA +8 or 9(?) or higher] with mid/high class levels in two or more spellcasting classes, together equipping him with the right spells to beat every trick in poor Tiff's arsenal to a pulp.[probably around ECL 30+, I'd say.]

correct me if I missed anything?

[asdflove]

Alright, so "close" could mean either:

Near level 21 between what looks like multiple spellcasting classes(could be multiple schools of magic too!), with a level adjustment race to push it just over the edge.
Near level 21 between two or more spellcasting classes(quite possibly both benefiting from Charisma) with a high level adjustment race or template(such as celestial, to name one)[probably around ECL 25+].
Power being [LA +8 or 9(?) or higher] with mid/high class levels in two or more spellcasting classes, together equipping him with the right spells to beat every trick in poor Tiff's arsenal to a pulp.[probably around ECL 30+, I'd say.]

correct me if I missed anything?
I don't do different schools of magic in different colors. Think of that what you will.

[Prince Zahn]

I don't do different schools of magic in different colors. Think of that what you will.

The only thing Wrong with this comment is how this is the only point adressed from the WHOLE, bloody, thing.:smalltongue:

Carry on, Love!

[asdflove]

The only thing Wrong with this comment is how this is the only point adressed from the WHOLE, bloody, thing.:smalltongue:

Carry on, Love!

Well, I knew if I addressed any other point I would inevitably give out spoilers.

[Andre]

Not in my bar!

[darklink_shadow]

Not very much E in her CE is there?

[asdflove]

Not very much E in her CE is there?

She's very evil. What gives you the idea other wise?

[Cuthalion]

She isn't acting like it. Remorse isn't always there in Evil people.

[asdflove]

She isn't acting like it. Remorse isn't always there in Evil people.

Ah. Just because it isn't always, doesn't mean it can't be.
Hi cuthalion. Nice to see you here. :P

[Cuthalion]

Ah. Just because it isn't always, doesn't mean it can't be.

Perhaps.

A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him.
Chaotic evil is sometimes called “demonic” because demons are the epitome of chaotic evil.
Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend.-D&DWiki
They can be nicer, but that up there's the standard. Evil is basically acting self-centered, but most Cha. Evils are sociopaths.
Hello. I like this comic better than your other one. It is very good.

[asdflove]

Perhaps.

They can be nicer, but that up there's the standard. Evil is basically acting self-centered, but most Cha. Evils are sociopaths.

She's purposefully not the standard. But also keep in mind, most of what you've seen of her, she's acting. You've only seen 1 strip of her acting like herself completely. In truth she vindictive, minipulative, hateful, and cruel. Sure, she can regret things, and not like to do them. Even evil has standards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards) you know.
Aww thanks. *blushes*

[darklink_shadow]

It sure seems she is upset that her target has a sister. Maybe I misread, nut she seems to be upset because it won't be nice for the little girl. And I guess the guy's friends? Why she thought a paladin wouldn't have friends... I donno.

She almost seems LN. Her plan isn't very C. And taking orders lime she is without even being threatened is kinda N or L.

[asdflove]

It sure seems she is upset that her target has a sister. Maybe I misread, but she seems to be upset because it won't be nice for the little girl. And I guess the guy's friends? Why she thought a paladin wouldn't have friends... I dunno.

She almost seems LN. Her plan isn't very C. And taking orders lime she is without even being threatened is kinda N or L.

Plan? She doesn't have an actual plan. She's playing it by ear. No she's upset because a sister, and what are 2 obviously good friends would make her job much more difficult. Also, it's not that she didn't expect him to have friends, it's that usually, if her target has good friends like that, Nathan (Incubus guy from the first strip) usually tells her that, same with the sister.
You don't know why she takes orders so easily, because I haven't told you, and I can't lest I spoil a major plot point.

[darklink_shadow]

I see, that's fine, but until I know more, it appears she isn't very evil.

But appears and isn't are different. I'm just saying she doesn't give me the evil feel.

[asdflove]

I see, that's fine, but until I know more, it appears she isn't very evil.

But appears and isn't are different. I'm just saying she doesn't give me the evil feel.

Being that almost everything you've seen of her, has been her pretending to be CG, I understand why it doesn't seem like she's CE.

[darklink_shadow]

I guess so, but her mental monologue isn't very sinister.

I guess she is just a good actress, and I roll poorly at sense motive.

[asdflove]

Updated. :smallbiggrin:

[Seer_of_Heart]

Updated. :smallbiggrin:

Woo within 10 minutes. :smallbiggrin:

[asdflove]

Woo within 10 minutes. :smallbiggrin:
... Do you actually have anything to say about the comic?

[darklink_shadow]

I still see her as too nice. Her inner monologue... well, the inner monologue of my most recent CE character in that situation would have been more like this:

"Who does this Alistar think he is? Does he take me for a fool? With that petty show of force? I will rend his flesh from his bones! But first... I have a mission to complete. No petty barkeeper will stand in my way. And when I have done... I'll take that fool and rip his still beating heart from him, as I suck out his soul!"

Or something.

[asdflove]

I still see her as too nice. Her inner monologue... well, the inner monologue of my most recent CE character in that situation would have been more like this:

"Who does this Alistar think he is? Does he take me for a fool? With that petty show of force? I will rend his flesh from his bones! But first... I have a mission to complete. No petty barkeeper will stand in my way. And when I have done... I'll take that fool and rip his still beating heart from him, as I suck out his soul!"

Or something.
...
1.She didn't know his name
2.She was panicked
3.Her anger right now is directed towards Nathan, which you'll be seeing in a few strips.
4.She's choosing to ignore him and is also a bit frightened by him
5. Evil≠Crazy

[darklink_shadow]

...
1.She didn't know his name
2.She was panicked
3.Her anger right now is directed towards Nathan, which you'll be seeing in a few strips.
4.She's choosing to ignore him and is also a bit frightened by him
5. Evil≠Crazy

1. Replace him name with a profanity then.
2. Panicking doesn't make me forget to be evil.
3. CE. Anger is everywhere.
4. Someone crossed a CE person and that CE person is going to ignore it? Turning the other cheek was a Jesus thing, you know. Not a role model for a CE person.
5. CE is more or less crazy. But regardless of that thought, my guy isn't crazy, he is bloodthirsty. Vengeful. Vindictive. A little cruel. Things a CE person typically would be,

[asdflove]

1. Replace him name with a profanity then.
2. Panicking doesn't make me forget to be evil.
3. CE. Anger is everywhere.
4. Someone crossed a CE person and that CE person is going to ignore it? Turning the other cheek was a Jesus thing, you know. Not a role model for a CE person.
5. CE is more or less crazy. But regardless of that thought, my guy isn't crazy, he is bloodthirsty. Vengeful. Vindictive. A little cruel. Things a CE person typically would be,

Me and you clearly have a different interpretation of CE.
I see CE as someone who is hot-tempered, vicious, and unpredictable, while having no respect or consideration for the life and dignity of others.
A Evil person, whether it be LE, NE, or CE, can be friendly, can be funny, and can be likable. Evil does not have to be mean, or crazy. Even CE.

1. Yeah, I'm trying not to swear in these, so no.
2. ... Yeah, sorry I have no idea what you're trying to say here. She's not forgetting anything. She's worried this random guy might kill her
3. That's not how I interpret CE, as I've stated above.
4. She's not turning the other cheek, she's disregarding it as unimportant in what she's trying to do here.
5. It seems crazy to me. Vengeful? Yes, that is Tiff, most of the time. Vindictive? Definitively Tiff. A little cruel? She's more than a little cruel. Bloodthirsty? Not in the slightest. Tiff is the type of evil who likes to crush people mentally, not physically. She likes to tear their good outlook apart and drag them down to her level. It's kinda her job, but she doesn't strive to kill others. She will if she has too, and will do it without regret or a second thought, but it's not something she goes out of her way to do.

[darklink_shadow]

I see.

CE to me is Chaotic, and Evil plus a synergy bonus.

I see chaotic as having to regard for the rules, or social structures.

Evil as desiring bad things upon others. Evil enjoys suffering. Evil hates it when other people are happy.

The synergy bonus of being both chaotic and evil granting: I don't care at all how other's feel unless I can use it to manipulate them into being miserable or causing misery for others.

I think your basic feeling of evil is a lot nicer than mine. Maybe I am cynical.

[asdflove]

Updated. :smalltongue:

[darklink_shadow]

Ooo... something against bards?

[asdflove]

Ooo... something against bards?
Not at all. :smalltongue:

[darklink_shadow]

Aw. That would have been fun.

I wonder how nerve racking it would be to be living surrounded by paladins. I guess she has an undetectable alignment though.

[asdflove]

Aw. That would have been fun.

I wonder how nerve racking it would be to be living surrounded by paladins. I guess she has an undetectable alignment though.

Yup, she has some random magic item of undetectable alignment. A ring perhaps. Sure let's go with a ring.

[darklink_shadow]

An EARring?

[asdflove]

An EARring?

No, just a ring. If it was an earring it would be drawn.

[darklink_shadow]

But her hair would cover any earrings. But that's fine to. I don't see a ring on her finger though.

Also, although I suppose you wont tell me, if Mr. Paladin doesn't dislike bards, why did he react to Tiff's admission to being a bard with a sigh and a rhetorical question?

[asdflove]

But her hair would cover any earrings. But that's fine to. I don't see a ring on her finger though.

Also, although I suppose you wont tell me, if Mr. Paladin doesn't dislike bards, why did he react to Tiff's admission to being a bard with a sigh and a rhetorical question?

... Elf ears? Also, rings just aren't drawn in OotS style.

Thaaaats a surprise for later.

[Prince Arjuna]

Okay, this is my first post here. This story certainly looks interesting. I will look forward to see more from you. :smallsmile:

And how does he know she's a fiend?

[asdflove]

Okay, this is my first post here. This story certainly looks interesting. I will look forward to see more from you. :smallsmile:

And how does he know she's a fiend?
:smallsmile: Yay!
He actually has a ring of true seeing.

[Prince Arjuna]

:smallsmile: Yay!
He actually has a ring of true seeing.

Oh, is that so? :smallconfused:
I think I can see that.

[asdflove]

Oh, is that so? :smallconfused:
I think I can see that.

... I don't follow. What are you trying to say?

[Prince Arjuna]

... I don't follow. What are you trying to say?

It means 'I understand'.

Ring of true seeing. I think I can see that.
Geddit?

[asdflove]

It means 'I understand'.

Ring of true seeing. I think I can see that.
Geddit?

Okay, I thought you may be making a joke, but I wasn't sure, especially since someone before on this page thought rings should be visible in this style. ^^;

[darklink_shadow]

No, my reasoning was actually that just because you can't see her earring doesn't mean she doesn't have them, and I intended to cite the lack of visibility on rings as am example of that truth.

Sorry if that was unclear. I am not a wordsmith.

[asdflove]

Updated (http://i.imgur.com/ub8FXLV.png)

[Cuthalion]

Not especially. Slightly chaotic, but, taking a guess, I'd say TN.

[asdflove]

Not especially. Slightly chaotic, but, taking a guess, I'd say TN.

Arrrrrrrrrrrg! Swear words!!!!! She's CE! What does she have to spontaneously kill a puppy to prove it?!?!

[Cuthalion]

Arrrrrrrrrrrg! Swear words!!!!! She's CE! What does she have to spontaneously kill a puppy to prove it?!?!

Character seems a decent bit like V.

No, but I still haven't really seen much evil in there at all. However, it would be a good way to end the discussion.

[asdflove]

Character seems a decent bit like V.

No, but I still haven't really seen much evil in there at all. However, it would be a good way to end the discussion.

*Le Sigh* I'll find a more reasonable way show that she's evil. I should have seen this coming when I aimed for affably evil.

[darklink_shadow]

It's not just me! :D

[asdflove]

It's not just me! :D

BUT other than you two, everyone I asked said they see her as evil, including several random people I hardly know from my school! :smallannoyed:

[darklink_shadow]

She hasn't taken a single evil action. You have hinted at an evil past, and she is on a mission to do evil, but she, herself, has done no evil I can see.

[Cuthalion]

She was sad when she saw the little girl. Not annoyed. Or worried. Sad. Regretful, am I right, about the girl losing her brother?

[asdflove]

She hasn't taken a single evil action. You have hinted at an evil past, and she is on a mission to do evil, but she, herself, has done no evil I can see.

How is being on the evil mission not doing something evil? She's trying to bring one the the most good people in that world to the side of evil. How is attempting that not evil?!? Cause honestly, this discussion is starting to piss me off. :smallmad:



She was sad when she saw the little girl. Not annoyed. Or worried. Sad. Regretful, am I right, about the girl losing her brother?
No, no you are not right, see my previous response to darklink_shadow.

It sure seems she is upset that her target has a sister. Maybe I misread, but she seems to be upset because it won't be nice for the little girl. And I guess the guy's friends? Why she thought a paladin wouldn't have friends... I dunno.

She almost seems LN. Her plan isn't very C. And taking orders lime she is without even being threatened is kinda N or L.

Plan? She doesn't have an actual plan. She's playing it by ear. No she's upset because a sister, and what are 2 obviously good friends would make her job much more difficult. Also, it's not that she didn't expect him to have friends, it's that usually, if her target has good friends like that, Nathan (Incubus guy from the first strip) usually tells her that, same with the sister.
You don't know why she takes orders so easily, because I haven't told you, and I can't lest I spoil a major plot point.

She actually was annoyed, and worried. Annoyed that the girl would make her job harder. Worried that the girl might make her job impossible.

[darklink_shadow]

Being on an evil mission doesn't prove guilt. Maybe she is being blackmailed, maybe this is all she hs ever known, and feels she has no choice.

[Prince Zahn]

Arrrrrrrrrrrg! Swear words!!!!! She's CE! What does she have to spontaneously kill a puppy to prove it?!?!

Funny, I recall the Giant asked the very same thing about Belkar.
If Asdflove says she is CE, then she is CE. There's nothing more to say about it. We haven't yet seen the evil within her, and that's okay - why? Because we're still early on, and there will likely be plenty of opportunities for Tiffany to manipulate people to enter dark situations and present it to them as "a gray area". :smallamused:

So if Love says Tiff is CE, give her the time and patience to prove it creatively :smallbiggrin:
----------------------------
That being said, Love - I WOULD suggest you get a 2nd opinion on whatever evil acts you have in store for us (from RL, preferably), mainly on how to present it in the most dramatic way imaginable, and on proving her malevolence the way Tiffany would knows best - might I suggest you meet up with an appropriately malevolent friend, or I can loan you one of mine(I have like, half a dozen of them) :smallwink:
-----------------------------
Sounds good to everyone?

[darklink_shadow]

If you can't sell it, I'm not buying it. Your logic is dumb, Zahn.

I can't just say someone is something and just have it be true. That's a cop out and poor authoring. Love isn't a poor author, so I doubt she will go for your argument.

She just hasn't had Tiff do anything that mkes me thing she is evil. That doesn't make Tiff not evil, it makes her not convincingly evil. If she doesn't want any feedback, I won't give it to her anymore, but I'm not a poor enough reader to just nod and say yup to whatever I am spoon fed.

[D.KnightSpider]

And this is why I will never play DnD. Alignment Arguments are an interest killer. <_<

Anywho... after this last strip, I felt like I needed to comment. I think the big problem here is that Tiff never really had a defining character moment before she went undercover, which didn't let us see how she thought or reacted to things before she started making nice with the goody-goodies. We're left without a framework to determine what's her play acting and what's her true feelings. It makes her come across as very ambiguous.

The bigger personal reaction that I wanted to voice was that this last strip felt less like an installment of the story and more like you as an author throwing up your hands and saying: "THERE! She's murderous and impulsive. She's CE now! SEE? CHAOTIC! EVIL!?" (Good gravy, that's an overly long sentence. :smalleek:) Which took me right out of the story. I could be entirely wrong about that, but that's what it felt like to me.

My advice would be to take the offered criticism and use it to improve, but not to let it impact the storytelling medium proper. When you feel the need to use the story medium to settle an argument, it really detracts from the storytelling experience as a whole.

I've been reading this strip from Day 1 and I have been enjoying it. I'd really like it not to get derailed by an alignment argument.

[asdflove]

Funny, I recall the Giant asked the very same thing about Belkar.
If Asdflove says she is CE, then she is CE. There's nothing more to say about it. We haven't yet seen the evil within her, and that's okay - why? Because we're still early on, and there will likely be plenty of opportunities for Tiffany to manipulate people to enter dark situations and present it to them as "a gray area". :smallamused:

So if Love says Tiff is CE, give her the time and patience to prove it creatively :smallbiggrin:
----------------------------
That being said, Love - I WOULD suggest you get a 2nd opinion on whatever evil acts you have in store for us (from RL, preferably), mainly on how to present it in the most dramatic way imaginable, and on proving her malevolence the way Tiffany would knows best - might I suggest you meet up with an appropriately malevolent friend, or I can loan you one of mine(I have like, half a dozen of them) :smallwink:
-----------------------------
Sounds good to everyone?

THANK YOU!!!!!!! It hasn't even been a in-comic day yet and alignment discussions are happening. That bugs me. I encourage alignment discussions for this comic, but can it perhaps wait till character personallities are properly established?
-------
Yeah, though I thought her threatening to rip off Nathan's head sounded pretty evil, I had a very devious friend. I can't help but wonder if anyone is going to question Nathan's alignment.
I have a particular thing planned to prove she's evil.




And this is why I will never play DnD. Alignment Arguments are an interest killer. <_<

Anywho... after this last strip, I felt like I needed to comment. I think the big problem here is that Tiff never really had a defining character moment before she went undercover, which didn't let us see how she thought or reacted to things before she started making nice with the goody-goodies. We're left without a framework to determine what's her play acting and what's her true feelings. It makes her come across as very ambiguous.

The bigger personal reaction that I wanted to voice was that this last strip felt less like an installment of the story and more like you as an author throwing up your hands and saying: "THERE! She's murderous and impulsive. She's CE now! SEE? CHAOTIC! EVIL!?" (Good gravy, that's an overly long sentence. :smalleek:) Which took me right out of the story. I could be entirely wrong about that, but that's what it felt like to me.

My advice would be to take the offered criticism and use it to improve, but not to let it impact the storytelling medium proper. When you feel the need to use the story medium to settle an argument, it really detracts from the storytelling experience as a whole.

I've been reading this strip from Day 1 and I have been enjoying it. I'd really like it not to get derailed by an alignment argument.
Actually I've had that scene planned since comic 1... My issue with taking the criticism to improve the story is that they just seem to be saying that she's not evil and offering no advice on how to make her seem evil.
I didn't think more scenes in hell would be worth it, since they had nothing from a storytelling perspective, but at this point I'm kinda wishing I had so there wouldn't be people questioning that she's evil.



Being on an evil mission doesn't prove guilt. Maybe she is being blackmailed, maybe this is all she hs ever known, and feels she has no choice.
It seems like that how? What did she say in the first strip... "What mortal sap am I going after today" and she said it with a smile on her face. How does that even remotely seem like she's being blackmailed or that she feels like she has no choice?

[Reddish Mage]

THANK YOU!!!!!!! It hasn't even been a in-comic day yet and alignment discussions are happening. That bugs me. I encourage alignment discussions for this comic, but can it perhaps wait till character personallities are properly established?

Please everyone. The official 3rd edition attempt to define "evil" is a single vague sentence.
"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others.

It doesn't say how often a character does this to be classified as evil or how serious the evil or to whom. It is perfectly possible for a character to act like a normal everyday person, and only occasionally commit evil acts and then only with the right victim. There's nothing that says that "evil" characters have to be puppy-murdering comic-book villains dedicated to spreading terror and misery with their every breath. They don't even have to "seem evil."

Also "neutral" doesn't mean "she does evil sometimes and she does good sometimes."


People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others.

There's nothing that suggests that being knowingly and willingly dedicated to an evil cause is not enough for the EVIL label. I'd prefer to see what our author has envisioned come out naturally than to see the plot shaped at this point by others' expectation of "good" and "evil" built up by authors whose main interest is in creating contrasts to encourage identification with the good guys. Authors that by and large are not at all interested in normalizing the bad guys.

[Prince Zahn]

May I suggest putting the alignment debate on hold before it looses all relevancy to this thread? @darklink: if you wish to disagree with me, by all means do so. but at least do so respectably - calling me a "poor reader", for disagreeing on your opinion is only offensive and narrow-minded on your part. There are many, MANY different and legitimate interpretations of evil out there, and many DM's who deviate from 3e's definition of alignments as well. So humor me: why should your interpretation disprove that of the author in her world - ESPECIALLY as Love herself confirmed we hardly* seen anything yet?

*=edit.

Anyway - "if you look to your left you will see Nedan's Tower in the distance: according to folklore, this pogo-stick like structure was built in honor of epic figure Lorre McLegendary, who did the epic plot moment way back in the pre-mainstory era that without it our little urban adventure would never have stood today. Rumors say that inside this tower is a plot-twist of epic proportion just waiting to happen, but of course this rumors, hero characters. Don't let it stray you from your already busy protagonistic lives. .:smallwink:"

[asdflove]

May I suggest putting the alignment debate on hold before it looses all relevancy to this thread?
Please.


Anyway - "if you look to your left you will see Nedan's Tower in the distance: according to folklore, this pogo-stick like structure was built in honor of epic figure Lorre McLegendary, who did the epic plot moment way back in the pre-mainstory era that without it our little urban adventure would never have stood today. Rumors say that inside this tower is a plot-twist of epic proportion just waiting to happen, but of course this rumors, hero characters. Don't let it stray you from your already busy protagonistic lives. .:smallwink:"
This. This is why you're awesome Zahn.
There actually is going to be a big scene there later. Law of conservation of detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) and whatnot.

[D.KnightSpider]

Actually I've had that scene planned since comic 1... My issue with taking the criticism to improve the story is that they just seem to be saying that she's not evil and offering no advice on how to make her seem evil.
I didn't think more scenes in hell would be worth it, since they had nothing from a storytelling perspective, but at this point I'm kinda wishing I had so there wouldn't be people questioning that she's evil.

Ah. You have my apologies for misunderstanding the situation. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was just afraid that the comic would lose its luster.

[asdflove]

Ah. You have my apologies for misunderstanding the situation. I wasn't trying to be a jerk. I was just afraid that the comic would lose its luster.
It's fine, really. :smallsmile:

[Vizzerdrix]

Nice comic so far.

And don't worry about seeming evil. Proper evil is like a good stew. It has to simmer for a while before it is ready to be served.

[The Walrus]

Interesting comic so far.

However, the shifting font size for speech bubbles was somewhat distracting for me. Usually, font size is an indicator of how loud a character is speaking, so I kept wondering why Nathan was yelling "It's on the itinerary." and "That's fine. Come over here." Look at Rich Burlew's comic if you need an example.

As for why some readers answered no to "Does she seem evil yet? Or at least chaotic?", Tiff's threat is clearly hyperbolic and comes off as nothing more than a petulant complaint. If she herself had provided a reason why she might kill him ("If your interference causes me to screw this mission up, I swear to Tiaka* I'll kill you") rather than having Nathan provide three reasons why she wouldn't it might have seemed more evil. Or maybe if she had delivered the threat with a hand on Nathan's back as he was looking out the window?

Of course, I'm not trying to tell you how to write your comic. I agree that what happened in #11 seemed more in line with Tiff's personality than anything else she might have done. Although she doesn't seem like the type to do things like rip someone's head off, there are plenty more ways to be evil. I'm guessing hers comes in the form of a complete disregard for how her actions will affect others, combined with a tendency to throw salt in their wounds afterwards by bragging about her conquests.

*You're using the pantheon you displayed in the Oots Fanart Showcase 5 for this, right?

[asdflove]

Interesting comic so far.

However, the shifting font size for speech bubbles was somewhat distracting for me. Usually, font size is an indicator of how loud a character is speaking, so I kept wondering why Nathan was yelling "It's on the itinerary." and "That's fine. Come over here." Look at Rich Burlew's comic if you need an example.

As for why some readers answered no to "Does she seem evil yet? Or at least chaotic?", Tiff's threat is clearly hyperbolic and comes off as nothing more than a petulant complaint. If she herself had provided a reason why she might kill him ("If your interference causes me to screw this mission up, I swear to Tiaka* I'll kill you") rather than having Nathan provide three reasons why she wouldn't it might have seemed more evil. Or maybe if she had delivered the threat with a hand on Nathan's back as he was looking out the window?

Of course, I'm not trying to tell you how to write your comic. I agree that what happened in #11 seemed more in line with Tiff's personality than anything else she might have done. Although she doesn't seem like the type to do things like rip someone's head off, there are plenty more ways to be evil. I'm guessing hers comes in the form of a complete disregard for how her actions will affect others, combined with a tendency to throw salt in their wounds afterwards by bragging about her conquests.

*You're using the pantheon you displayed in the Oots Fanart Showcase 5 for this, right?

Sorry about the font size thing. I always make the Speech bubbles first and then just fit the text to it.

She did seriously mean that threat. She would have attempted to do it if he hadn't said the reasons why she shouldn't. But she would have failed. I am using that pantheon, but the main deities in play are Nedan, Stalla and Adena. Tiff's not one to provide reasons for anything she does. Her reason for being mad at him with that her told her absolutely NOTHING about the mission before sending her out on it.

Now, that would just be hurting her allies. If she succeeds at something, it usually means she pulled someone to the side of evil and if they're evil now, they're no longer an enemy, so no rubbing of salt into wounds would happen... Okay, it would rarely happen. Sometimes when she corrupts a paladin into to a blackguard, she likes to rub it in their faces what a goody-two shoes they used to be. :smalltongue:

[The Walrus]

Ah, I think I see what happened. I didn't read comic 10 again before reading 11, and assumed that Tiff's glowing red eyes were due to being startled, and that when she asked Nathan "Why didn't you warn me!" she was referring to him suddenly teleporting next to her without warning. This made Tiff's threat seem slightly less credible than if I had read it knowing the real reason why she was angry at Nathan. However, the comic still has not convinced some readers that Tiff actually did an evil act in making her threat.

Now, you may have the right to determine facts about your character's motivations in your webcomic, but this does you no good if these facts are not made apparent to the reader. Given that Tiff's eyes had stopped glowing red by the time she delivered the threat, it made it seem like she had calmed down somewhat. Also, Nathan noted that the actual threat she made was unrealistic, and therefore didn't sound that credible. Had Tiff actually popped her claws out and said she would cut him open, for example, it would have been a different matter. Furthermore, you stated that Tiff wouldn't kill someone unless it was necessary:


Tiff is the type of evil who likes to crush people mentally, not physically. She likes to tear their good outlook apart and drag them down to her level. It's kinda her job, but she doesn't strive to kill others. She will if she has too, and will do it without regret or a second thought, but it's not something she goes out of her way to do.

None of this would have mattered much if it weren't for two facts:

1. The title suggested that something would happen in that specific comic showing that Tiff was evil. Therefore, it was important for Tiff to do something unambiguously evil in that comic.

2. You're writing in a serialized format. Spielberg's movies have lots of plot holes, but no one notices them while they're actually watching the movie, and thus they do not distract from the work. But webcomics like this have each installment analyzed critically. If darklink_shadow had been reading through this strip in an archive, I doubt any comment would have been made. This effect is especially prevalent in the earlier installments, where there hasn't been enough time to set things up yet.

So, if you want to avoid discussions about alignment at this point, it may be a good idea to not reference it in your comic's title. Of course, the likely reason you made the title that way was to address concerns readers had earlier. There are two reasons why people may not yet consider Tiff to be evil:

1. As the protagonist, she's a sympathetic character and thus readers will be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt.

2. People are more convinced that someone is evil by actions than by states of being. Thus merely being a demon doesn't convince much. Going on a mission to make someone evil might be an action, but this really just shifts the problem further down the line, as "being a blackguard" is also a state of being and not an action. If Tiff's mission was to convince Lucas to kill someone, that'd be different. It looks like the next comic may fix this problem by spelling out what exactly she's supposed to induce Lucas to do, but up until then it's rather vague what exactly being converted to evil entails.

What I meant by the "others" whom Tiff would aggravate wasn't the people she converted but rather those hurt or disadvantaged by this, such as Lila for instance. Also, it would seem that if Tiff really might actually have tried to kill Nathan, that just because two people are both working for "evil" doesn't mean they can't be enemies.

All of the points I've made could be argued. But what separates a good webcomic from a mediocre one is often not any single huge flaw, but a number of arguable issues. It may be arguable whether a plot is unoriginal or not, or whether a given character is convincingly portrayed, or whether the pacing is too slow. Yet the combination of many such issues leads to mediocrity. Not being able to point out any unambiguous problems makes such works hard to criticize, especially if you don't want to get into an argument with the author. The reason I'm posting is that I believe that comics can be improved by an honest consideration of their arguable problems, by asking why people are arguing certain points in the first place rather than arguing those points with them.

[darklink_shadow]

Eloquent. But I think the attempt is wasted. Regardless, eventually something truly sinister will happen or it won't. For now we must either accept that the demon is evil because the author says so and wait for the evidence or we must abnegate our faith in the telling.

Put this argument to rest. She resists a discussion about it unless it echoes her opinion. Not everyone can levelly discuss their creations.

[asdflove]

Ah, I think I see what happened. I didn't read comic 10 again before reading 11, and assumed that Tiff's glowing red eyes were due to being startled, and that when she asked Nathan "Why didn't you warn me!" she was referring to him suddenly teleporting next to her without warning. This made Tiff's threat seem slightly less credible than if I had read it knowing the real reason why she was angry at Nathan. However, the comic still has not convinced some readers that Tiff actually did an evil act in making her threat.

Now, you may have the right to determine facts about your character's motivations in your webcomic, but this does you no good if these facts are not made apparent to the reader. Given that Tiff's eyes had stopped glowing red by the time she delivered the threat, it made it seem like she had calmed down somewhat. Also, Nathan noted that the actual threat she made was unrealistic, and therefore didn't sound that credible. Had Tiff actually popped her claws out and said she would cut him open, for example, it would have been a different matter. Furthermore, you stated that Tiff wouldn't kill someone unless it was necessary:



None of this would have mattered much if it weren't for two facts:

1. The title suggested that something would happen in that specific comic showing that Tiff was evil. Therefore, it was important for Tiff to do something unambiguously evil in that comic.

2. You're writing in a serialized format. Spielberg's movies have lots of plot holes, but no one notices them while they're actually watching the movie, and thus they do not distract from the work. But webcomics like this have each installment analyzed critically. If darklink_shadow had been reading through this strip in an archive, I doubt any comment would have been made. This effect is especially prevalent in the earlier installments, where there hasn't been enough time to set things up yet.

So, if you want to avoid discussions about alignment at this point, it may be a good idea to not reference it in your comic's title. Of course, the likely reason you made the title that way was to address concerns readers had earlier. There are two reasons why people may not yet consider Tiff to be evil:

1. As the protagonist, she's a sympathetic character and thus readers will be inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt.

2. People are more convinced that someone is evil by actions than by states of being. Thus merely being a demon doesn't convince much. Going on a mission to make someone evil might be an action, but this really just shifts the problem further down the line, as "being a blackguard" is also a state of being and not an action. If Tiff's mission was to convince Lucas to kill someone, that'd be different. It looks like the next comic may fix this problem by spelling out what exactly she's supposed to induce Lucas to do, but up until then it's rather vague what exactly being converted to evil entails.

What I meant by the "others" whom Tiff would aggravate wasn't the people she converted but rather those hurt or disadvantaged by this, such as Lila for instance. Also, it would seem that if Tiff really might actually have tried to kill Nathan, that just because two people are both working for "evil" doesn't mean they can't be enemies.

All of the points I've made could be argued. But what separates a good webcomic from a mediocre one is often not any single huge flaw, but a number of arguable issues. It may be arguable whether a plot is unoriginal or not, or whether a given character is convincingly portrayed, or whether the pacing is too slow. Yet the combination of many such issues leads to mediocrity. Not being able to point out any unambiguous problems makes such works hard to criticize, especially if you don't want to get into an argument with the author. The reason I'm posting is that I believe that comics can be improved by an honest consideration of their arguable problems, by asking why people are arguing certain points in the first place rather than arguing those points with them.
Oh, looks someone can give good advice on how to fix it. Now to address your points.

1. No! Don't be sympathetic for her! Yes she's a protagonist, but Lucas fills that role just as well throughout the whole story line! Infact the next strip won't have Tiff in it at all, since it will be following Lucas. (Which I guess will give you guys a chance to criticize my attempt to write lawful good. I hope I'm not pulling a Miko...)

2. It's not the fact that she's a fiend that I'm expecting you guys to think she's evil, but the fact that her entire mission is to make someone else evil. I will be further exploring what she's supposed to do with Lucas when it cuts back to her, several comics from now.

Ah. You see, she doesn't ever stick around long enough to that. Also, Tiff doesn't usually try and kill her team mates. I really am trying to make it more noticeable, but in a way that make sense within the story.

[asdflove]

updated (http://i.imgur.com/2qvDZCr.png)

[Chameon]

Hello. Fan of the story. Seeing lots of discussion and notes that people don't think the main character is evil....yeah, I could see why you'd argue she's true neutral, but, at the same time, chaotic evil isn't (or at least to my mind isn't) about randomly wandering and bringing about damage through murdering every person you possibly can. Plus, as the comic goes out of its' way to say, she's not...well she's not good at violence. It'd be like trying to have a fighter play Chopin's Raindrops. Yeah, he could do it, with enough practice, and taking a twenty, but fact is, he wouldn't be good at it. Now, the ways this can be applied...well, chaotic evil charismatic tends to like having more of a portfolio, minions, etc etc to my knowledge, but hey, author-person mentioned they like ideas on ways to show chaotic evil, so, ways will be shown!

1: Butterfly Effect: Yes, yes, I know, people are going to tell me that setting down tendrils and prepping routes is a lawful thing...with charisma, it doesn't have to be. Hold up, before I get burned to cinders! If she doesn't obsess on her target TOO much, and instead tries to slowly make the baseline average for 'good' a little bit lower, encourages people to be a little bit greedier (and if it happens to hit her target and make his day a little bit less pleasant, so be it) then she adds a few more seconds of damnation to everyone, as everyone shows a little more fury. Convince somebody that somebody else is less then useful, or that taking that bribe won't hurt that many people (likewise, that taking that bribe doesn't NECESSARILY mean they have to actually follow through with their end of the deal).
2: Bad Instruments: She's a bard, there's plenty of enchanted instruments she could 'accidentally' get a hold of. In Pathfinder (yes, yes, I know, it's probably not in 3.5) there's this lovely little cursed item called the "Riot Pipes" she could pretend to be enchanted by and start causing some lovely little accidental riots, play it off as being the victim and needing Lucas that LITTLE bit more, and, if nobody catches on it's her doing it, even convince Lucas that humans / sapients / whatever you want to call the all-varied species are that little bit less kind/good.
3: Dark Pacts/Devils Deals: Yes, yes, I know, Demon, not devil....or was it the other way around? Regardless, she can't obsessively follow her target, being the devil on Lucas' shoulder works, yes, but you follow somebody 24/7, you're just going to freak them out or enrage them eventually, an example of something she could do to demonstrate her evilness is to start offering out dark pacts to some 'innocents'. Get a bit of extra oomph from free-soul gathering, badda bing badda boom, money get, evil get, possible awkward explanation that goes completely against her mission, get. Bonus points if she manages to twist it into a faustian pact that gets her a new contact for equipment. Although, in all honesty, this one probably requires the most intelligence not to make some over the top nonsense.
4: General light mayhem and chaos: She's a bard. Bards are known for their music/speeches/dances/whatever their spec is inspiring emotions, sanity, insanity, whatever is appropriate to the given bard. Alignment supposedly influences what music is available (from what I have heard and what little I have seen in NWN2), so, one simple thing she COULD do to prove she's evil? Play a few songs that simply inspire self-loathing, inspire an intense hatred in a race, or whatever, and let the results fall where they will. I'd suggest a different disguise if she's going to do THAT though. She also should have a few spells she can mess around with to appropriately influence the environment.
5: Revelation as to why she's from one of the circles of bad place: Well...yeah. Easiest solution would be a flashback as to what precisely she did/has done to earn a chaotic evil alignment, if anything at all. That said, as I recall, planar beings are actually a species unto themselves, and not spirits, so that doesn't work so well.

That said, all that advise given, I actually DO like her seeming ambiguous at the start, her alignment looking/appearing TN / etc, because the alignment wheel is NOT a perfect description of how the characters act all the time. For example, I had a cleric, touched by the gods, could hear them talking all the time, and as such was more then the slightest amount insane (on more then one occasion he jumped of a building for funsies), liked to play god with earthshaping spells, you get the idea...thing is, he was Neutral Good. GM argued with me constantly about it, but fact of the matter was, if he said he was going to do something, by goodness he was going to do it, and he'd presume others would follow their words as well despite any prior knowledge, amusingly enough. What this rambling is getting at is, just because a character acts like a good individual, or a morally ambiguous individual, does not necessarily imply how they will act when push comes to shove. If she and Lucas gets attacked, and she's chaotic evil, she could easily run and hide, or try and trick Lucas into negotiating ("They might KILL us if we don't fight") etc. As I recall, Paladins had a penalty for even DEALING with non-lawful good individuals as part of their vows.

...I steadily get less lucid the further in I go, apologies everybody who attempts to draw some degree of sanity from this pallete. :smallredface:

[asdflove]

Hello. Fan of the story. Seeing lots of discussion and notes that people don't think the main character is evil....yeah, I could see why you'd argue she's true neutral, but, at the same time, chaotic evil isn't (or at least to my mind isn't) about randomly wandering and bringing about damage through murdering every person you possibly can. Plus, as the comic goes out of its' way to say, she's not...well she's not good at violence. It'd be like trying to have a fighter play Chopin's Raindrops. Yeah, he could do it, with enough practice, and taking a twenty, but fact is, he wouldn't be good at it. Now, the ways this can be applied...well, chaotic evil charismatic tends to like having more of a portfolio, minions, etc etc to my knowledge, but hey, author-person mentioned they like ideas on ways to show chaotic evil, so, ways will be shown!
You just had to bring this back up didn't you.




1: Butterfly Effect: Yes, yes, I know, people are going to tell me that setting down tendrils and prepping routes is a lawful thing...with charisma, it doesn't have to be. Hold up, before I get burned to cinders! If she doesn't obsess on her target TOO much, and instead tries to slowly make the baseline average for 'good' a little bit lower, encourages people to be a little bit greedier (and if it happens to hit her target and make his day a little bit less pleasant, so be it) then she adds a few more seconds of damnation to everyone, as everyone shows a little more fury. Convince somebody that somebody else is less then useful, or that taking that bribe won't hurt that many people (likewise, that taking that bribe doesn't NECESSARILY mean they have to actually follow through with their end of the deal).

I don't actually think I know what you're trying to say here...




2: Bad Instruments: She's a bard, there's plenty of enchanted instruments she could 'accidentally' get a hold of. In Pathfinder (yes, yes, I know, it's probably not in 3.5) there's this lovely little cursed item called the "Riot Pipes" she could pretend to be enchanted by and start causing some lovely little accidental riots, play it off as being the victim and needing Lucas that LITTLE bit more, and, if nobody catches on it's her doing it, even convince Lucas that humans / sapients / whatever you want to call the all-varied species are that little bit less kind/good.

She sings, acts, and sleeps with people. A bard she may be, but she doesn't play instruments.



3: Dark Pacts/Devils Deals: Yes, yes, I know, Demon, not devil....or was it the other way around? Regardless, she can't obsessively follow her target, being the devil on Lucas' shoulder works, yes, but you follow somebody 24/7, you're just going to freak them out or enrage them eventually, an example of something she could do to demonstrate her evilness is to start offering out dark pacts to some 'innocents'. Get a bit of extra oomph from free-soul gathering, badda bing badda boom, money get, evil get, possible awkward explanation that goes completely against her mission, get. Bonus points if she manages to twist it into a faustian pact that gets her a new contact for equipment. Although, in all honesty, this one probably requires the most intelligence not to make some over the top nonsense.

Succubi are demons. She doesn't have the authority to make pacts like that, unfortunately. She will be the 'demon on his shoulder' though.



4: General light mayhem and chaos: She's a bard. Bards are known for their music/speeches/dances/whatever their spec is inspiring emotions, sanity, insanity, whatever is appropriate to the given bard. Alignment supposedly influences what music is available (from what I have heard and what little I have seen in NWN2), so, one simple thing she COULD do to prove she's evil? Play a few songs that simply inspire self-loathing, inspire an intense hatred in a race, or whatever, and let the results fall where they will. I'd suggest a different disguise if she's going to do THAT though. She also should have a few spells she can mess around with to appropriately influence the environment.

Alignment influences bardic music, how?


5: Revelation as to why she's from one of the circles of bad place: Well...yeah. Easiest solution would be a flashback as to what precisely she did/has done to earn a chaotic evil alignment, if anything at all. That said, as I recall, planar beings are actually a species unto themselves, and not spirits, so that doesn't work so well.

Sure, some flashbacks will happen... Far later when this won't even matter anymore...


That said, all that advise given, I actually DO like her seeming ambiguous at the start, her alignment looking/appearing TN / etc, because the alignment wheel is NOT a perfect description of how the characters act all the time. For example, I had a cleric, touched by the gods, could hear them talking all the time, and as such was more then the slightest amount insane (on more then one occasion he jumped of a building for funsies), liked to play god with earthshaping spells, you get the idea...thing is, he was Neutral Good. GM argued with me constantly about it, but fact of the matter was, if he said he was going to do something, by goodness he was going to do it, and he'd presume others would follow their words as well despite any prior knowledge, amusingly enough. What this rambling is getting at is, just because a character acts like a good individual, or a morally ambiguous individual, does not necessarily imply how they will act when push comes to shove. If she and Lucas gets attacked, and she's chaotic evil, she could easily run and hide, or try and trick Lucas into negotiating ("They might KILL us if we don't fight") etc. As I recall, Paladins had a penalty for even DEALING with non-lawful good individuals as part of their vows.

...I steadily get less lucid the further in I go, apologies everybody who attempts to draw some degree of sanity from this pallete. :smallredface:

You like her being ambiguous? The fact that people think she could be TN is driving me nuts. It completely lessens the impact of later stuff...

[Chameon]

You just had to bring this back up didn't you.



I don't actually think I know what you're trying to say here...



She sings, acts, and sleeps with people. A bard she may be, but she doesn't play instruments.


Succubi are demons. She doesn't have the authority to make pacts like that, unfortunately. She will be the 'demon on his shoulder' though.


Alignment influences bardic music, how?

Sure, some flashbacks will happen... Far later when this won't even matter anymore...



You like her being ambiguous? The fact that people think she could be TN is driving me nuts. It completely lessens the impact of later stuff...

I apologize, I didn't know I was bringing this back up. I thought it was still going on, and you asked for advise.

You asked for advise on how she could identify herself as chaotic evil. The first, and simplest aspect of doing such would be to cause minor incidents, convince people that hey, maybe stealing that wallet would be a good idea, etc etc.

Yeah, sorry. Just going with what I know. I didn't know if she could use instruments or not. I just follow what paths I see available, one of the simplest is to simply come across 'conveniently' cursed items, so I brought up the riot pipes.

The pacts bit is unfortunate, you're right. I was pretty sure she couldn't anyway.

Alignment influences bardic music because it influences where inspiration comes from. In NWN2, there's a couple of feats that allow you to show this off (Cursed song and blessed song, as I recall) that each have individual influences such as debuffs for enemies or buffs for allies based on alignment on the good-evil scale. I do not know if this is the case in 3.5 or PF, just what I know from NWN2, I never actually got to play 3.5

Yes, flashbacks will happen, later. I'm just trying to use what resources are available and give what advise is available.

Yes, I like her being ambiguous at the start, especially given that the statements you make hint that she's going to go good, not that he's going to necessarily go evil. It gives growing room, prior to the end-game, for the character to 'incidentally' branch out into giving minor demonstrations, like any of those five examples I provided. Three of them have been rebuffed, one of them was not understood, and one of them is not likely until far later. Still, I felt I would provide advise, since one of your MAIN complaints was that nobody was providing suggestions on how the character could show herself as evil. I apologize, as I thought the discussion was still -on-, and I was trying to be helpful. As I have done nothing but stress the author of this piece, clearly I have failed at being helpful, so I'll get out of your hair.

[asdflove]

I apologize, I didn't know I was bringing this back up. I thought it was still going on, and you asked for advise.

You asked for advise on how she could identify herself as chaotic evil. The first, and simplest aspect of doing such would be to cause minor incidents, convince people that hey, maybe stealing that wallet would be a good idea, etc etc.

It had been like week or more since it had been discussed...
I appreciate that you're trying to help. I really do.



Yeah, sorry. Just going with what I know. I didn't know if she could use instruments or not. I just follow what paths I see available, one of the simplest is to simply come across 'conveniently' cursed items, so I brought up the riot pipes.


I had a character sheet made for her and up here for a while, but I took it down 'cause I messed up on it... I'm remaking it now. It wasn't a bad idea, it just doesn't work here.



Alignment influences bardic music because it influences where inspiration comes from. In NWN2, there's a couple of feats that allow you to show this off (Cursed song and blessed song, as I recall) that each have individual influences such as debuffs for enemies or buffs for allies based on alignment on the good-evil scale. I do not know if this is the case in 3.5 or PF, just what I know from NWN2, I never actually got to play 3.5

No such thing in 3.5.



Yes, flashbacks will happen, later. I'm just trying to use what resources are available and give what advise is available.


That was just me noting why that wouldn't work. By the time I will be able to logically do flashbacks, it won't matter anymore.



Yes, I like her being ambiguous at the start, especially given that the statements you make hint that she's going to go good, not that he's going to necessarily go evil. It gives growing room, prior to the end-game, for the character to 'incidentally' branch out into giving minor demonstrations, like any of those five examples I provided. Three of them have been rebuffed, one of them was not understood, and one of them is not likely until far later. Still, I felt I would provide advise, since one of your MAIN complaints was that nobody was providing suggestions on how the character could show herself as evil. I apologize, as I thought the discussion was still -on-, and I was trying to be helpful. As I have done nothing but stress the author of this piece, clearly I have failed at being helpful, so I'll get out of your hair.

Now, don't assume anything. You can't be sure Lucas won't turn evil. For all you know I already have the fall scene drawn already... :smallamused:
You already were more helpful, because you tried. My main issue was that they were complaining while offering no advice on how to fix it. You didn't stress me at all. The people before, who were offering no advice annoyed me, but not you. I really was just hoping the conversation would drop, because I was just frustrated with the previous people.

[asdflove]

Update~ (http://i.imgur.com/eO0yrhe.png):smallbiggrin:

Big news, Alignment Shift is now hosted at Fletcher games (http://fletcherrpggames.com/comic2/). Each and every update will be posted there first. I will still keep it here, since it's a OotS style comic, but it's there now.

[darklink_shadow]

Ah! Hypothesis:
That's not what's her face! That's the other what's her face! Tiff!

:smallbiggrin: OR maybe I am overly suspicious of everything.

[asdflove]

Ah! Hypothesis:
That's not what's her face! That's the other what's her face! Tiff!

:smallbiggrin: OR maybe I am overly suspicious of everything.

Interesting hypothesis.

[asdflove]

Updated. :smallsmile:

[darklink_shadow]

Oh good! I thought you'd stopped writing!

[Cuthalion]

She has a computer? :smallconfused:

[asdflove]

Oh good! I thought you'd stopped writing!
No, I've just been busy.

She has a computer? :smallconfused:
Yes, yes she does.

[Cuthalion]

Yes, yes she does.

...

A computer? Pretty good magic there.

[asdflove]

...

A computer? Pretty good magic there.

No. It's electricity.

[Cuthalion]

No. It's electricity.

At that point, if they have computer-level technology, how on earth are swords still the weapon of choice?

[asdflove]

At that point, if they have computer-level technology, how on earth are swords still the weapon of choice?

The tech level is varied. Guns aren't a thing here.

[Andre]

Well, they're paladins. Epic is important for that sort of people, and hacking at something slowly with a sword is definitely more epic than sniping them from half a mile away. (add snicker here)

[Cuthalion]

Is this dead? :smallfrown: I understand if you don't have enough time.

[asdflove]

Is this dead? :smallfrown: I understand if you don't have enough time.

Not dead, just temporarily stalled.

[Cuthalion]

Not dead, just temporarily stalled.

Okay. Looking forward to when it wakes up once more.