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Palanan
2013-02-12, 05:18 PM
First, this is a DM-only thread, so my players should buzz off. :smalltongue:



So, I really need input on a new type of swarm I've just put together, which I'm hoping to use in our next session this weekend.

I've never done much with swarms, and I only have the shakiest notion of homebrewing creature stats. Everything that follows has been very roughly eyeballed, following the basic outline of the swarms in the Monster Manual. (I've also borrowed slightly from the shimmerling swarm in MM3.)

This is my very first swarm, and my first homebrewed creature in quite a while, so please tell me how it looks, where I've gone wrong and what it needs to make it right. So, without further ado:



Butterfly Swarm

Fine Vermin (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 50 (good)
Armor Class: 22 (+8 size, +4 Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/ -
Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Distraction, kaleidoscopic dazzle, dust
Special Qualities: Blindsense 10 ft., immune to weapon damage, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +0
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 19, Con 5, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 12
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: warm tropical forests (continuous), warm temperate forests (warm months), cold temperate forests (summer)
Organization:
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: none
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: -

A butterfly swarm is a whirling cloud of thousands of butterflies, usually congregating around rich resources such as dense flowers or mineral-rich puddles. A butterfly swarm rarely if ever attacks.

Blindsense (Ex): A butterfly swarm notices and locates creatures within 10 feet; the swarm's typical reaction is to flee. Opponents still have total concealment against the butterfly swarm, but swarm attacks ignore concealment.

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its square must succeed on a DC 8 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save is Constitution-based.

Kaleidoscopic Dazzle (Ex): Each butterfly in a swarm contributes to a mesmerizing swirl of brilliant colors and iridescent hues. Any creature within 100 ft. must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or be fascinated for as long as the swarm is in sight. Any potential threat allows another save against the effect, and vigorous intervention or an imminent threat automatically frees the fascinated creature from the effect. The save is Charisma-based.

A butterfly swarm cannot deactivate this effect while flying, and a flying butterfly swarm automatically fails Hide checks. By contrast, a roosting swarm in a natural forest environment is difficult to detect.

Dust (Ex): The fluttering agitation of a butterfly swarm raises a glittering haze of near-microscopic wing scales, which has two effects. Any creature spending 2 or more rounds within a butterfly swarm must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or take 1d3 points of nonlethal damage for each subsequent round spent within the swarm. (Failing this save also provokes a fit of coughing which compromises any attempts to move silently.) The save is Dexterity-based.

In addition, any creature spending 3 or more rounds within a butterfly swarm is coated with fine glittering scales, conferring a -10 penalty on Hide checks until the creature is thoroughly brushed down. A thorough brushing is a full-round action.


changelog:

2-13-13
- changed HD from d4 to d8, adjusted hp from 7 to 13
- adjusted initiative bonus from +3 to +4
- clarified Dust is an Ex ability
- pondered removing Kaleidoscopic Dazzle (despite really liking the name)

2-16-13
- changed Int to -, Cha to 12, and CR to 2
- upgraded swarm damage to 1d6
- specified Blindsense as Ex
- changed Distraction DC to 8, K-Dazzle DC to 12, Dust DC to 15; added clarifying text per Debi
- defined a "thorough brushing" as a full-round action
- filled out text in a couple of places
- generally did what Debi said I should :smalltongue:

2-17-13
- removed skills

.

Debihuman
2013-02-12, 10:41 PM
Congrats on your first homebrew. You have some neat concepts but your execution needs a little work. Keep in mind, you set the CR as 1 so I'm going to try to scale it to fit that CR.

If these were non-magical creatures then they wouldn't have the special abilities that you added. I recommend changing these to Magical Beasts. [Although there is no reason you couldn't make these Animals, butterflies would more likely be classed as vermin as they are bugs. ]

Animal and Vermin swarm use d8 not d4. Magical Beast would be d10. Whichever you decide, don't forget to update your creature's hit points.

Initiative is Dex based; modifier for 19 is +4.

Swarm damage is based on creature's HD. Did you read the Swarm Type? It's laid out here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#swarmSubtype. It would be 1d6.

You have a few too many special abilities for the number of Hit Dice. You have to balance this against CR 1. Once you start throwing Special Abilities out there, you shouldn't be stacking the deck against the PCs. This has to be fair.

These can see so they don't need Blindsense. I recommend losing this. However, if you make them Magical Beasts, they would then get Darkvision 60 ft.

Kaleidoscope Dazzle is really a Supernatural ability since real butterflies cannot do this. If you don't like the Charisma-based DC, raise the creature's charisma score to 12. Although it confers Fascination, it seems unnecessary since the creature already has Distraction. It doesn't need both. Also, is it fair to make the PCs make 2 saves at CR 1? I don't think so.

DC of Saves is 10 + 1/2 Creature's HD and ability modifier. You have to state which ability this is based on.

Dust should be an Extraordinary ability. I like this more than I like Kaleidoscope Dazzle. Again, check the DC of your saves. I'm not sure which ability is the source for this.

Good luck with this.

Debby

Sho
2013-02-12, 10:56 PM
Dust seems like an ability that would key on Constitution, but the creature's Constitution is very low.

Charisma could still work.

Magical Beast seems fitting as a type.

Palanan
2013-02-13, 11:03 PM
Okay, thanks for the input so far, and especially thanks to Debi for the detailed (and very gentle) critique.

A couple of general points up front: I do know that butterflies would be considered "vermin" in game terms, but...but...I just couldn't. I've never liked that term in the game, and I just can't bring myself to apply it to butterflies. :smalltongue:

And I did notice that the standard swarm damage is 1d6. The SRD doesn't describe exactly how this damage is dealt, but I'm assuming it's mainly biting, since bats and rats have sharp teeth, centipedes and spiders have chelicerae, and even locusts have some pretty tough grinding mouthparts. Butterflies, on the other hand, don't have anything to bite with (just a pair of coiling tubes for nectar) so I'm assuming the damage would be lessened as a result.

Kaleidoscopic Dazzle: good points on this, especially about forcing two saves at CR 1. I wasn't specifically aiming for CR 1, so I'm willing to raise it if necessary...but, well, butterflies.

I essentially lifted this ability from the shimmerling fey in MM3. For butterflies, I'm thinking of the otherworldly effect of a blue morpho in sunlight: an unreal blaze of electric blue, --suddenly vanishing as the wings close, then blazing out anew. It's as if the butterfly is flashing in and out of some brighter reality--and the effect is deliberate, intended to confuse predators.

So I wanted something that would suggest hundreds of brilliantly flashing wings, dazzling and unpredictable. The fascination effect might not be appropriate...but maybe the distraction effect could be strengthened instead? A more disorienting form of vertigo?

As for the blindsense, most butterflies don't have very good vision, and when it comes to fine detail they're nearsighted at best. But they're very sensitive to air currents (as well as having chemoreceptors across most of their body surface) and blindsense seemed to model this best.

This is what I'm thinking, but feel free to point out what works and what doesn't. I'd like to keep it CR 1 if possible, but I could go to CR 2 if necessary.

Debihuman
2013-02-16, 09:58 AM
Damage is "Swarm" damage and doesn't really match anything. 10,000 butterflies of magical nature beating against you still does 1d6 damage. Try not to overthink this. :-)

I understand why you don't like vermin to describe butterflies. The word "vermin" has such negative connotations but it's a category not a pejorative. Also most vermin are mindless and wouldn't get feats or skills which is probably what this should have. See locust swarm as an example. I recommend losing the Int 1 and changing it to Int -.

Regardless of how butterflies see or don't see in the real world should not affect how you stat up your creature. Once it becomes a "creature" for 3.5 you have to make it your own and that means you have to give it poor vision in order to make blindsense make sense. It probably uses blindsense only to flee from predators it wouldn't otherwise see.

AC line is missing Touch and Flat-footed ACs. Touch is 22 and Flat-footed is 18.


Kaleidoscopic Dazzle (Ex): Each butterfly in a swarm contributes to a mesmerizing swirl of brilliant colors and iridescent hues. Any creature within 100 ft. must succeed on a DC 19 Will save or be fascinated for as long as the swarm is in sight. Any potential threat allows another save against the effect, and vigorous intervention or an imminent threat automatically frees the fascinated creature from the effect.

A butterfly swarm cannot deactivate this effect while flying, and a flying butterfly swarm automatically fails Hide checks. By contrast, a roosting swarm in a natural forest environment is almost impossible to detect.

First how do you get a DC 19 Will save? You must state which ability this save is based on. See other Special Abilities. They say: "The save is X=based." With "X" being the aforementioned skill.

Second, DC 19 is ridiculously high for CR 1. Saves should be around the DC 11 mark. See how this compares to Giant Bee for example which is a CR 1 creature. If your creature is more powerful then it needs more HD and a higher CR.

Here is what I suggest. CR 1 is too low. I recommend changing to CR 2. This should be mindless. Groups of butterflies are called a lek or rabble so I used those terms for Organization. Swarm damage is standard regardless of the creatures that make up the swarm. Distraction is always Constitution based. Charisma is too low, increased from 2 to 12.

Here is how it should probably look.


Butterfly Swarm
Fine Vermin (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 50 (good)
Armor Class: 22 (+8 size, +4 Dex), touch 22, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/ -
Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Distraction, kaleidoscopic dazzle, dust
Special Qualities: Blindsense 10 ft., immune to weapon damage, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +0
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 19, Con 5, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 12
Skills: Listen +2, Hide +4 (+22 while roosting, +0 while flying)
Feats: --
Environment: Any warm land
Organization: Solitary, lek (2-4 swarms), rabble (5-6 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: -

Butterfly swarms do not attack unless threatened.

Blindsense (Ex): A butterfly swarm uses its blindsense 10 feet to locate predators so that it can flee.

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with a swarm in its square must succeed on a DC 8 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save is Constitution-based.

Kaleidoscopic Dazzle (Su): Each butterfly in a swarm contributes to a mesmerizing swirl of brilliant colors and iridescent hues. Any creature within 100 feet that sees the swarm must succeed on a DC 12 Will save or be fascinated for as long as the swarm is in sight. Any potential threat allows another save against the effect, and vigorous intervention or an imminent threat automatically frees the fascinated creature from the effect. The save is Charisma-based.

A butterfly swarm cannot deactivate this effect while flying, and a flying butterfly swarm automatically fails Hide checks. By contrast, a roosting swarm in a natural forest environment is difficult to detect.

Dust (Ex): The fluttering agitation of a butterfly swarm raises a glittering haze of near-microscopic wing scales, which has two effects. Any creature spending 2 or more rounds within a butterfly swarm must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or take 1d3 points of nonlethal damage for each subsequent round spent within the swarm. (Failing this save also provokes a fit of coughing which compromises any attempts to move silently.). The save is Dexterity-based.

In addition, any creature spending 3 or more rounds within a butterfly swarm is coated with fine glittering scales, conferring a -10 penalty on Hide checks until the creature is thoroughly brushed down, a Standard action.

Skills: A butterfly swarm has +2 skill bonus to Listen and a +4 bonus to Hide which increases to +22 while roosting and decreases to +0 while flying.


Debby

Palanan
2013-02-16, 02:20 PM
Okay, thanks very much for the second round of review; I appreciate your attention to detail, and especially the help recalibrating the CR. That's not something I have the slightest instinct for. : /

And, as much as I enjoy butterflies, I have to agree with you on the Int issue. Lovely creatures, yes, but generally not much for the little grey cells.

I've adjusted the save DCs, ability scores and other details as you've suggested, and added some text on Blindsense which is copied more or less verbatim from the bat swarm in MM1. Also, I'm defining a "thorough brushing" as a full-round action, although open to returning it to standard.

I think that should pretty much do it for this stage, and thanks again to Debi for setting me straight on just about everything.

:smalltongue:

Debihuman
2013-02-17, 11:10 AM
Mindless creatures do not get feats OR skills. You need to have a skills section that explains that the skills are racial skills only.

Since these have such poor vision they should get no bonus to Spot at all. See how I did the skills section in the previous post. I think you just forgot to change the skills when you removed Alertness feat. Hide +22 is too high and I'm unsure how you arrived at that number. A swarm doesn't get a bonus to Hide from its size because while each individual butterfly is Fine, the swarm itself would actually take up 10 feet as a Large creature.

Debby

Palanan
2013-02-17, 02:32 PM
Thanks for catching that, it does make sense. I was thinking the individual butterflies would get a hefty bonus to Hide when they were roosting...but then they'd be individual butterflies, not a swarm.

So, removed the skills line entirely. I think that's pretty much got it.

Debihuman
2013-02-17, 04:37 PM
A butterfly swarm cannot deactivate this effect while flying, and a flying butterfly swarm automatically fails Hide checks. By contrast, a roosting swarm in a natural forest environment is difficult to detect.

I see that you've now deleted the creature's skills. Perhaps this needs to be changed as a result since you have no mechanic to determine how difficult a roosting swarm of butterflies is to detect.

Debby