Detective (3.5 base class, PEACH) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Grindle

2013-02-13, 01:41 AM

Detective

Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d8.

Class Skills
The detective's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Survival (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.

{table=head] Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special

1st | +0 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Study opponent +1d6, Urban Tracking, Track, Elementary, Deduction

2nd | +1 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Find Clues, Forensics

3rd | +2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | Study opponent +2d6, Observation

4th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Kinesics, Hard-Boiled

5th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Study opponent +3d6, Identify substance

6th | +4 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Contacts

7th | +5 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Study opponent +4d6, Improved Observation

8th | +6/+1 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Pierce disguise

9th | +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +6 | Study opponent +5d6, Foresight

10th | +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Master of Disguise

11th | +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Study opponent +6d6, Evasion

12th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Mislead

13th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Study opponent +7d6, Reflection

14th | +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 | Improved Find Clues

15th | +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +9 | Study opponent +8d6, Adopt Persona

16th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Improved Foresight

17th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Study opponent +9d6, Pierce Illusion

18th | +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Hide in Plain Sight

19th | +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Study opponent +10d6, Omniscience

20th | +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 | Prediction [/table]

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the detective.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Detectives are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Detectives are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Study Opponent
Starting at 1st level, a detective can take a swift action to study an opponent, and from that point forward receives a precision bonus on weapon damage rolls against that opponent. This bonus can only apply to one opponent at a time; studying a new opponent shifts the bonus to attacks against that opponent. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two detective levels thereafter.

Urban Tracking
A detective gains Urban Tracking as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Track
A detective gains Track as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Elementary (Ex)
A detective can use Intelligence in place of Wisdom when making Survival checks made to track another creature, and for all Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.

Deduction (Ex)
A detective can draw on their knowledge of other fields to make untrained Knowledge checks, as though they were trained.

Find Clues (Ex)
A detective who merely passes within 5 feet of a clue is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if they were actively looking for it. A detective also gains a bonus equal to ½ their detective level to Search and Spot checks.

Forensics (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a detective can draw on their deductive ability to determine the state of an area, object, or creature at a prior moment in time. An Intelligence check, with special Forensics bonus added, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This bonus includes their detective level, a +4 for each Observation check that exceeds 30 if the subject is a creature, and a +4 for each clue found by a relevant successful Search check; clues include hair, footprints, fingerprints, scales, blood, teeth, and discarded equipment. You cannot retry Forensics checks, unless you find further clues.

Another individual can disrupt this process by disturbing evidence; this is done by making a similar Search check to remove clues from the area prior to the detective's arrival.

Forensics DCs
{table=head] Task | Forensics DC

Determine the general type of events that took place and their sequencing | 10

Determine the outlines of what happened, but without details like specific identities | 20

Determine exactly what happened at the desired time | 30 [/table]

{table=head] Condition | Forensics DC Modifier

Misleading clues planted | +5

Powerful supernatural abilities or beings involved | +10

Every 24 hours since desired moment in time | +1

Scene disturbed | +5

Scene heavily disturbed | +10 [/table]

Observation (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a detective can gain insight into the habits and lives of other creatures through detailed observation and deduction. A Spot check, with the detective level added as a bonus, will determine the extent of their knowledge. If the creature is in Disguise, subtract the result of the creature's Disguise check from the Spot check.

Observation DCs
{table=head]
Task (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)|
Observation DC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)

Determine the age and sex of the creature (if of a known species).|10

Determine the creature's occupation or manner of living.|20

Determine the creature's region of origin and approximate place of habitance.|25

Determine the creature's specific powers and weaknesses.|30[/table]

Kinesics (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a detective can use their knowledge of body language and psychology to determine the true state of a creature's mind. A Sense Motive check, with the detective level added as a bonus, will determine the extent of their knowledge; if the creature is bluffing, subtract the creature's Bluff check from the Sense Motive check. Consult the table below to determine how much information the detective obtains.

Kinesics DCs
{table=head] Task | Kinesics DC

Determine the creature's true emotional state. | 10

Determine the creature's alignment. | 15

Determine the creature's surface thoughts. | 25 [/table]
Hard-Boiled
Beginning at 4th level, a detective is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Identify Substance (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a detective can draw on their deductive ability to identify an unknown substance. An Intelligence check, with special Identify Substance bonus added, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This bonus includes their detective level and a +2 for each obvious distinguishing attribute of the substance (such as a distinctive color or smell). You cannot identify substances that you have no knowledge of, but you may be able to deduce their properties; knowledge of a substance is determined by an appropriate Knowledge check, with a DC based on the substance's rarity. You cannot retry Identify Substance checks, unless you find further information about the substance.

Identify Substance DCs
{table=head]
Task (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)|
Identify Substance DC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)

Identify a common, widely known substance (such as blood or dyed water)|10

Identify a rarer substance and its properties (such as a poison)|20

Identify the properties of a singular or unknown substance|30[/table]

Contacts (Ex)
A detective of 6th level or higher cultivates contacts. In each city or town they are familiar with, they gain a number of contacts, based on a Contacts Score of their detective level plus their Charisma modifier. These contacts may be fleshed out to various degrees; a table is provided below for the basic needed information. Contacts are considered Friendly to the detective in terms of the Diplomacy skill.
The number of contacts could be used, for example, as a bonus to skills like Gather Information, or a DM could develop NPCs to represent different contacts.

{table=head]
Contacts Score |{colsp=10}
Number and Level of Contacts

|
1st |
2nd |
3rd |
4th |
5th |
6th |
7th |
8th |
9th |
10th

1 or lower |
1 |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
—

2 |
1 |
1 |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
—

3 |
2 |
1 |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
—

4 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
—

5 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
— |
— |
— |
— |
— |
—

6 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
— |
— |
— |
— |
—

7 |
4 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
— |
— |
— |
—

8 |
4 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
— |
— |
—

9 |
5 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
— |
—

10 |
5 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
—

11 |
6 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1

12 |
6 |
4 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1

13 |
7 |
4 |
3 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1

14 |
7 |
5 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1

15 |
7 |
5 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1

16 |
8 |
5 |
4 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1 |
1

17 |
8 |
6 |
4 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1

18 |
9 |
6 |
4 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1 |
1

19 |
9 |
6 |
4 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1

20 |
10 |
7 |
5 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1 |
1

21 |
10 |
7 |
5 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1

22 |
11 |
7 |
5 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
1

23 |
11 |
8 |
5 |
4 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2

24 |
12 |
8 |
6 |
4 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2

25 or higher |
12 |
8 |
6 |
4 |
3 |
3 |
2 |
2 |
2 |
2 [/table]

Improved Observation (Ex)
Starting at 7th level, a detective can gain further insight into the habits and experiences of other creatures through more advanced observation and deduction. A detective can now make Observation checks to learn specific facts about a given creature; for every four points the check result exceeds 30, the detective learns another fact about the creature.
Examples of facts:
The creature's previous occupation.
Information about the creature's family.
The creature's prior location.

Improved Observation also allows a detective to determine information about an item's owner by inspecting only the item. This functions like ordinary Improved Observation, but with a -10 penalty.

Pierce Disguise (Ex)
Starting at 8th level, a detective can use their powers of observation to see through disguises particularly effectively. Before making Spot check in order to detect a disguise, a detective can also make a DC 20 Sense Motive check; if this Sense Motive check is successful, the detective adds half their detective level to the Spot check.

Foresight (Ex)
Starting at 12th level, a detective can use their knowledge of other creatures’ behavior and psychology to predict the creatures’ upcoming actions. They are never flat-footed and cannot be flanked, and gain a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever the detective would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

Master of Disguise (Ex)
Starting at 10th level, a detective can use their knowledge of behavior and psychology to perfect the art of disguise. A detective who is a master of disguise receives a bonus equal to ½ their detective level to all Disguise checks, and viewers making Spot checks against them do not receive familiarity bonuses.

Evasion (Ex)
At 11th level and higher, a detective can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the detective is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless detective does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Mislead (Ex)
Beginning at 12th level, a detective can use their knowledge of psychology and acting to mislead other creatures into taking particular actions. The result of an attempt to mislead is decided by a DC 20 Bluff check, with a +4 bonus added for each Observation or Kinesics check made on the creature that exceeds 30. This functions like the spell suggestion, with a Will saving throw (DC 10 + ½ detective's level + detective's Int modifier) negating the effect.

Reflection (Ex)
Starting at 13th level, a detective can use their powers of deduction to realize new information related to past events or subjects. A detective can spend one day pondering known information, with an Intelligence check with a special Reflection bonus added determining the outcome. This bonus consists of half their detective level, as well as a +2 bonus for every relevant piece of known information. Upon success, a detective comes to a realization based on the table below.

Reflection DCs
{table=head] Task | Reflection DC

A vague and not necessarily useful realization. | 10

A helpful, but undetailed realization. | 20

A relevant and useful realization. | 30 [/table]
Example: Why did the suspects leave a trail of bread crumbs?

DC 10 – Birds ate most of the breadcrumbs. The trail is similar to a trail of pebbles nearby.

DC 20 – Both the trail of breadcrumbs and a trail of pebbles lead away from their house into the woods.

DC 30 – The suspects were abandoned by their stepmother, and placed the trail to avoid becoming lost.

Improved Find Clues (Ex)
Starting at 14th level, the range of a detective's Find Clues skill increases to 15 ft.

Adopt Persona (Ex)
Beginning at 15th level, a detective can combine their knowledge of human psychology, their powers of observation, and their acting ability in order to adopt a persona. A detective using this skill can assume a disguise, usable with the Disguise skill, with no preparation time necessary, as long as the intended disguise is of the same race and gender.

Improved Foresight (Ex)
At 16th level, a detective gains such the use of the spell Foresight as an extraordinary ability, for a duration of 10 min./level per day; it is limited to use on the detective themself.

Pierce Illusion (Ex)
Starting at 17th level, detectives are automatically suspicious of all illusions, and gain a bonus equal to half their detective level to Will saves made against illusion effects.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
While in any sort of urban terrain, a detective of 18th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Omniscience (Ex)
At 19th level, detectives gain the ability to take 20 on all Knowledge checks.

Prediction (Ex)
At 20th level and higher, a detective can use their intellect and experience to predict the course of future events. An Intelligence check, plus a special Prediction bonus, will determine the quality of the prediction made. This bonus consists of half their detective level, and a +2 bonus for every currently-known piece of information related to the subject at hand. Prediction checks cannot be remade unless more information about the subject is gained.

Prediction DCs

{table=head] Task (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#) | Prediction DC

A vague prediction | 10

A helpful prediction, but with details missing. | 20

A relevant and useful prediction. | 30 [/table]

Example:
Who will be the next king of Moralia?

DC 10 – a member of the royal family.

DC 20 – the prince who is now in line for the throne.

DC 30 – Prince Hubert von Dinkel, upon the assassination of his father by the king of Borane, Pintuvius XI.

Sho

2013-02-13, 01:44 AM

NPC class?

Grindle

2013-02-13, 01:53 AM

NPC class?

No, it was intended as a base class for players. I guess you could use it for NPCs, though.

Sypher667

2013-02-13, 02:10 AM

No, it was intended as a base class for players. I guess you could use it for NPCs, though.

If this is for players, I would suggest buffing it a touch (a lot). This class is in most cases not better than a rogue, aside from some specific bonuses. Something for damage/other in combat utility would not go amiss, nor would something other than "+X to skill Y" for class features.

Grindle

2013-02-13, 02:40 AM

I would suggest buffing it a touch (a lot).

Are you suggesting buffing it a lot, or a little? :smallconfused:

Something for damage/other in combat utility would not go amiss, nor would something other than "+X to skill Y" for class features.

Do you not consider Improved Feint, Improved Disarm, or Weapon Finesse to count as "combat utility"?

Do you count any of the bonus feats other than Investigator, or the Elementary or Hard-Boiled skills, as "+X to skill Y" class features? I wouldn't, and if you don't, only three out of ten of the class features match that description.

Realms of Chaos

2013-02-13, 09:22 AM

This class is just a bit too narrow and weak by comparison with the other available classes. To be fair, it is probably the best class at tracking down clues and interrogating likely criminals in a non-combat setting with skills.

The versatility you trade for that, however, just isn't worth it. If you had chosen the rogue, you'd have around twice as many skill points to further diversify yourself, a means of combat that is relevant against high CR creatures (while your class does get some combat feats, it never really seems capable of fighting anything other than normal humanoid criminals), and some defensive abilities like uncanny dodge and evasion.

If you chose a spellcaster, you could get divinations that would be so much better than those skills (detect evil, zone of truth, discern lies, locate creature/object, detect thoughts, true seeing).

Even speaking in relative terms, just look at hardboiled. The paladin gains immunity to all fear effects by level 3 while this guy gets a measly +4 bonus all of the way at level 10.

In a very specialized campaign, this class is probably capable of functioning. If the campaign ever moves on from mystery tones, however, things aren't looking too good for this class at all.

Things that this class might benefit from:

Some scaling way to participate in combat beyond feats (perhaps gaining a bonus to attack/damage rolls from watching an opponent in combat and deducing their weak points)
Maybe more skill points (this class doesn't give enough to get all of the skills it gets bonuses to without a huge intelligence modifier). Also, it needs forgery (the skill that opposes other forgery checks) as a class skill if you want this guy to detect forgeries.
If you look up the urban tracking feat (it exists within the SRD), it makes far more sense for the detective to get that than to get normal tracking.
Some mundane way to imitate more common and vital divinations (such as true seeing to pierce illusions and polymorphing).
Perhaps some way to help the rest of your party with your deductions (maybe something like bardic music/Archivist's lore).

Grindle

2013-02-13, 05:36 PM

Things that this class might benefit from:

Some scaling way to participate in combat beyond feats (perhaps gaining a bonus to attack/damage rolls from watching an opponent in combat and deducing their weak points)
Maybe more skill points (this class doesn't give enough to get all of the skills it gets bonuses to without a huge intelligence modifier). Also, it needs forgery (the skill that opposes other forgery checks) as a class skill if you want this guy to detect forgeries.
If you look up the urban tracking feat (it exists within the SRD), it makes far more sense for the detective to get that than to get normal tracking.
Some mundane way to imitate more common and vital divinations (such as true seeing to pierce illusions and polymorphing).
Perhaps some way to help the rest of your party with your deductions (maybe something like bardic music/Archivist's lore).

Thanks for the suggestions. I've changed the class around a bit based on them, but I'm not going to add anything equivalent to true seeing/bardic music, because I don't feel it would fit with the theming of the class.

genericwit

2013-02-14, 10:59 AM

Grindle

2013-02-14, 01:02 PM

Here's what I'd do to buff it:

Give it a bard's spell progression with a more divination/illusion/enchantment/conjuration spell list (after all, it helps to be able to restrain a fleeing criminal!) and maybe a few abjuration's thrown in for good measure and a half sneak attack progression (perhaps full sneak attack progression but only when dealing nonlethal damage to a creature with discernable anatomy and half progression for other purposes). That would round it out, giving it more combat and out of combat utility.

They're not bad ideas, but neither of them fits with my conception of what detectives should be like as a class. I don't want detectives to use magic, I want them to rely on logic and skill, and I don't want them to be too rogue-like and use methods that could be seen as sneaky.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-02-14, 01:53 PM

Love the idea of making a good detective class, but we're looking at "slightly better than an NPC class" abilities here. I can't really analyze it well on an iPhone (terrible for quoting and formatting posts), so I'm leaving this as a note to myself to give you a point-by-point analysis and some higher-level ability suggestions within a day or two. :smallbiggrin:

For reference? Most standard mythological heroes can be built before level 10 in D&D, so I'd base this around the idea that Sherlock Holmes might be about a level 6-7 Detective. From there you should start to reach super-human levels of detection and awareness.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-02-14, 02:02 PM

Alignment: Any good or neutral.
No evil detectives? Bad guys need to be able to track down the heroes, you know... :smallwink:

<skills>
Not a bad list.

<table>
Good chassis.

Elementary (Ex)
A detective can use Intelligence in place of Wisdom when making Survival checks made to track another creature, and for all Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Nice and flavorful. I will note here that, unless our character spends one of his own feats on Track, he can't actually make use of the first part of this ability.

Urban Tracking
A detective gains Urban Tracking as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Useful.

Improved Feint
A detective gains Improved Feint as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Didn't you just say that you didn't want detectives to use underhand strategies?

Weapon Finesse
A detective gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at 2rd level.
Useful, I suppose.

Study Opponent
A detective can take a standard action to study an opponent, and from that point forward receives a bonus equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1) on weapon damage rolls against that opponent. This bonus can only apply to one opponent at a time; studying a new opponent shifts the bonus to attacks against that opponent.
This is, ah... well, it's flavorful. Int to damage is nice. But Int damage against one foe is hardly worth the one round spent studying them. If it was a swift action to study them, maybe. If the standard action added sneak attack-esq damage, it'd be worth it. But as of now, this is too weak, especially at higher levels.

Improved Disarm
A detective gains Improved Disarm as a bonus feat at 5th level.]
Useful, I suppose.

Interrogation (Ex)
At 3rd level, a detective receives a +2 bonus to Bluff, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks made against nonlawful creatures with 5 or less Hit Dice. These bonuses rise to +3 when the detective reaches 6th level, to +4 when they reaches 9th level, to +5 when they reaches 12th level, to +6 at 15th, and to +7 at 18th level.
Fitting, but rather weak. I'd take off the HD restriction.

Hard-Boiled
Beginning at 3rd level, a detective is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).
I appreciate this.

Investigator
A detective gains Investigator as a bonus feat at 4rd level.
In the words of Fezzek, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." This is one of those feats that grants +2 to two skills. I'd rather see a scaling bonus to the skills in question.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a detective can react to danger before their senses would normally allow them to do so. They retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if they are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, they still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
Not much to say here.

Eagle-Eyed (Ex)
At 5th level, a detective gains a +2 bonus to Decipher Script and Spot checks, and to checks made to recognize forgeries and disguises. These bonuses rise to +3 when the detective reaches 8th level, to +4 when they reaches 11th level, to +5 when they reaches 14th level, to +6 at 17th, and to +7 at 20th level.
More minor scaling skill bonuses, hooray!

Deduction (Ex)
A detective can draw on their knowledge of other fields to make untrained Knowledge checks.
Decent, I suppose.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
A detective of 10th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
Ayup.

So, on the whole: this class doesn't really offer much beyond a lot of minor skill bumps. Worse, it's not even that good a detective, in the D&D world, given how completely and utterly it's outclassed by certain spells.

A high-level D&D detective shouldn't be "a rogue with a few skill bonuses in place of skill checks." He should be able to look at a body and say "he was killed by a CL 8 lightning bolt." He should be able to walk through a crowd going "doppleganger. Polymorphed elf. Humanform silver dragon. Orc with a hat of disguise." He should be able to tell the difference between illusion and reality with the blink of an eye. He should be able to take one glimpse at a crime scene and reconstruct exactly what happened as if he was there at the time. He should be able to tell when anyone is lying to him.

Remember: you're choosing to play a detective base class. If that's going to be such a huge part of your character's identity, you'd better be dang good of it.

Grindle

2013-02-14, 05:10 PM

So, on the whole: this class doesn't really offer much beyond a lot of minor skill bumps. Worse, it's not even that good a detective, in the D&D world, given how completely and utterly it's outclassed by certain spells.

A high-level D&D detective shouldn't be "a rogue with a few skill bonuses in place of skill checks." He should be able to look at a body and say "he was killed by a CL 8 lightning bolt." He should be able to walk through a crowd going "doppleganger. Polymorphed elf. Humanform silver dragon. Orc with a hat of disguise." He should be able to tell the difference between illusion and reality with the blink of an eye. He should be able to take one glimpse at a crime scene and reconstruct exactly what happened as if he was there at the time. He should be able to tell when anyone is lying to him.

Remember: you're choosing to play a detective base class. If that's going to be such a huge part of your character's identity, you'd better be dang good of it.

I've taken a lot of your advice and overhauled the class a bit. The major points of interest are the new special abilities and the modification of Study Opponent to have Sneak Attack damage.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-02-14, 05:30 PM

I've taken a lot of your advice and overhauled the class a bit. The major points of interest are the new special abilities and the modification of Study Opponent to have Sneak Attack damage.
That's more along the lines of what you want, yeah. A few issues with the ones you've posted so far:

Forensics is pretty cool.
What's the DC on the sense motive check for the "Pierce Disguise" ability? Also, how does it interact with things like illusions and polymorph spells?
Detect Lies... isn't that already a thing you can do with Sense Motive? Also, not that strong.

Xaotiq1

2013-02-14, 05:35 PM

What if I want to play Shaft? There is NO WAY Shaft is Lawful Good! He's chaotic good personified! Man, guess a brotha has to go Rogue to go rogue. :smallannoyed:

Grindle

2013-02-14, 05:42 PM

What if I want to play Shaft? There is NO WAY Shaft is Lawful Good! He's chaotic good personified! Man, guess a brotha has to go Rogue to go rogue. :smallannoyed:

Wait, why couldn't you play Shaft with this class? :smallconfused: There was never any Lawful requirement, and I recently removed the nonevil alignment restriction. Am I missing something?

Xaotiq1

2013-02-14, 10:00 PM

Wait, why couldn't you play Shaft with this class? :smallconfused: There was never any Lawful requirement, and I recently removed the nonevil alignment restriction. Am I missing something?

Well, damn. I officially can no longer read. Sorry. Also, can't pass a thread about detective characters and not mention Shaft!

Milo v3

2013-02-15, 02:25 AM

You could give it some flavour-fitting low-level spells, but make them mechanically non-magical. They would have to be spontaneous though.

Grindle

2013-02-15, 06:28 PM

What's the DC on the sense motive check for the "Pierce Disguise" ability? Also, how does it interact with things like illusions and polymorph spells?

Looking at Sense Motive, the SRD says this:

Hunch 20
You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor.

So I'll go with DC 20.
Also, it adds a bonus to Spot, which can normally be used to see through polymorph/illusion spells. (Spells just add a +10 bonus to Disguise.)

Detect Lies... isn't that already a thing you can do with Sense Motive? Also, not that strong.

As far as I can tell, you can't use Sense Motive to check the truth value of specific statements. Detect Lies allows you to do that.

You could give it some flavour-fitting low-level spells, but make them mechanically non-magical. They would have to be spontaneous though.

Any suggestions? I'd rather not tread into Bard or Rogue territory.

Milo v3

2013-02-15, 06:38 PM

Except, whenever someone lies, they make a bluff check opposed to your sense motive check. Meaning Sense Motive, detects if people are lying.

EDIT:

Any suggestions? I'd rather not tread into Bard or Rogue territory.
Some minor divinations, Detect Poison is a must, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, Detect Thoughts, Detect Scrying, etc.

Grindle

2013-02-15, 06:47 PM

Except, whenever someone lies, they make a bluff check opposed to your sense motive check. Meaning Sense Motive, detects if people are lying.

I've realized that I've been reading the SRD wrong, and that Detect Lies is pretty much useless. Anyone have any suggestions for other special abilities? :smallwink:

sirpercival

2013-02-15, 08:31 PM

Maybe use this (http://dndtools.eu/classes/master-inquisitive/) for inspiration?

Grindle

2013-02-15, 10:59 PM

Some minor divinations, Detect Poison is a must, Detect Secret Doors, Identify, Detect Thoughts, Detect Scrying, etc.

I've added Detect Poison, Detect Secret Doors, and Identify as special abilities I'm not quite willing to add in anything that's basically impossible to explain by mundane means, like Detect Thoughts or Detect Scrying.

So, people, do you think the current (rogue-like) ability system works, or should I go with a magic-user-like ability list?

Demidos

2013-02-15, 11:24 PM

Reading their expressions with uncanny correctness could cover for Detect thoughts, with perhaps a +4 to the save for nonhumanoids.

Another thought: Diguise self at will would be rather nice.

Also, perhaps some sort of predictive combat ability (I knew you would do that) that allows them to gain bonuses against attacks that they know the opponent posesses and now know they can use (That is to say, a +4 to AC or to saves if theyve seen the character's fighting style before (requires the analysis of at least two corpses or watching the character in combat for three rounds, using a swift action each round) or if theyve seen the character cast the spell before.

Another possibility, "Brilliant deduction", allowing you to deduce something about a creature as per contact other plane, once per given creature.

Also, something that protects you from scrying. You are the hunter, not the hunted.

Perhaps some way to use vetriloquism? (Ive always thought that it should be possible as part of some skill check, perhaps bluff). A nice nonmagical way to trip opponents up that doesnt decrease too much in usefulness over time.

Lastly, of course, they should of course have Perform (Badly played Violin). Sherlock Holmes, for those poor lost souls which did not catch this the first time around.

Edit: I would also move up the rogue/detective abilities up to once every two levels. The SPELLCASTERS get cool new stuff every level, and reallly cool stuff every other level. Matching that keeps playing the character exciting.

Double edit: I would also lessen the action to get the bonus damage to a move. A rogue can attack anyone, and its relatively easy to get SA consistently. Throw the detective a bone.

Also, NO CAPSTONE? Give me one reason why I shouldnt dip out for that level of Warblade to double my combat capabilities. How about something that allows you to go into a cataconic haze, where everything just sort of...falls into place. Perhaps it can be done once per week, leaves you helpless for one day, and allows you to act as though under the effects of metafaculty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm) for an hour (I would say Hypercognition, but that power is so ridiculously vague/broken that it sorta ruins the whole point). It takes a minute per HD of your opponent to deduce their abilities. Or perhaps allow them to now identify creature's weak points subconsciously, without even requiring an action. Seriously, at 20th level that isnt going to break them, or even really change anything.

Grindle

2013-02-15, 11:58 PM

Reading their expressions with uncanny correctness could cover for Detect thoughts, with perhaps a +4 to the save for nonhumanoids.

Hm. I'm not sure anyone is so good at reading expressions that they could plausibly get specific thoughts out of other people's heads.

Another thought: Diguise self at will would be rather nice.

Also, perhaps some sort of predictive combat ability (I knew you would do that) that allows them to gain bonuses against attacks that they know the opponent posesses and now know they can use (That is to say, a +4 to AC or to saves if theyve seen the character's fighting style before (requires the analysis of at least two corpses or watching the character in combat for three rounds, using a swift action each round) or if theyve seen the character cast the spell before.

Another possibility, "Brilliant deduction", allowing you to deduce something about a creature as per contact other plane, once per given creature.

Also, something that protects you from scrying. You are the hunter, not the hunted.

I will probably add these (though I need an explanation for the scrying.)

Perhaps some way to use vetriloquism? (Ive always thought that it should be possible as part of some skill check, perhaps bluff). A nice nonmagical way to trip opponents up that doesnt decrease too much in usefulness over time.

I like the idea of ventriloquism, but I don't really associate it with detectives or see why this class specifically should have it.

Lastly, of course, they should of course have Perform (Badly played Violin).

Heh.

I would also move up the rogue/detective abilities up to once every two levels. The SPELLCASTERS get cool new stuff every level, and reallly cool stuff every other level. Matching that keeps playing the character exciting.
I did change that in the table, but forget to change the text description.

Also, NO CAPSTONE? Give me one reason why I shouldnt dip out for that level of Warblade to double my combat capabilities. How about something that allows you to go into a cataconic haze, where everything just sort of...falls into place. [...] Or perhaps allow them to now identify creature's weak points subconsciously, without even requiring an action. Seriously, at 20th level that isnt going to break them, or even really change anything.

I'll consider some high-level deductive ability like this, though I have to say I don't understand the obsession with capstones on these forums.

Milo v3

2013-02-16, 12:03 AM

Hm. I'm not sure anyone is so good at reading expressions that they could plausibly get specific thoughts out of other people's heads.
Sherlock.

I'll consider some high-level deductive ability like this, though I have to say I don't understand the obsession with capstones on these forums.
People don't want to gain nothing at a level. This is even worse at level 20, as without a feature their is no reason why you shouldn't take a level in something else.

Grod_The_Giant

2013-02-16, 12:06 AM

Hm. I'm not sure anyone is so good at reading expressions that they could plausibly get specific thoughts out of other people's heads.

So? You have to remember, D&D passes the point of plausibility somewhere around 6th level. Sherlock Holmes is level 5 or 6. Batman might be 10th level. 12th level? 15th level? 20th level? You're not looking at a guy and figuring out what his job is from the scruff marks on his shoes*, you're looking at him and reading his entire life history in the lines on his left cheek-- and by "his entire life history," I mean "he had eggs for breakfast 2 years, 3 months, and 11 days ago."

*Hey, there's an idea-- use Search like a Knowledge check to identify the special powers and vulnerabilities of people with class levels.

Grindle

2013-02-16, 01:17 AM

Another possibility, "Brilliant deduction", allowing you to deduce something about a creature as per contact other plane, once per given creature.

Sherlock.

So? You have to remember, D&D passes the point of plausibility somewhere around 6th level.
*Hey, there's an idea-- use Search like a Knowledge check to identify the special powers and vulnerabilities of people with class levels.

Due to these arguments/suggestions, I have decided to add a new ability: Observation. It allows detectives to determine somewhat specific information about creatures using Spot checks.

I've also added Disguise Self as an ability, and changed Study Opponent to a swift action. Does it seem too good now, or about right? (Is the one person at a time thing enough of a limit?)

Frathe

2013-02-16, 05:16 PM

Here's an idea for an ability (that would probably replace Detect Poison): something that has fixed DCs to let you identify any substance, like you're a traveling forensics lab. Higher DCs for rarer substances.

Plato Play-Doh

2013-02-16, 09:18 PM

Grindle

2013-02-16, 09:35 PM

Why not kill two birds with one stone? You think that reading thoughts is too much for a normal, nonmagical person, and you need a capstone. Make it a sense motive check, opposed by the opponent's bluff check, as a free action to be able to tell exactly what one person is thinking, maybe once per day. We're talking something like the greatest detective imaginable, who makes Sherlock Holmes look slow and stupid, so it should be fine. Also, why does the detective get track as a bonus feat? That makes no sense, they don't have any particular affinity for the outdoors. Also, Elementary should probably apply to gather information (for urban tracking) rather than survival (for normal tracking).

Detectives get Track so they can follow footprints/other tracks, which is the only use of that feat. They don't need a particular affinity for the outdoors to be able to follow footprints. Elementary was meant to change all class-important Wisdom checks to intelligence checks, so Gather Information wouldn't quite fit in.

I'll probably add something like your suggestion as a capstone.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-02-16, 09:38 PM

This class is definitely suffering from a case of "mundane can't have nice things," as well as from a lack of unique, defining features. Forensics and Observation are good starts, but feel like they should be standard, core, low-level features you can build on. The rest of the class is a mishmash of other classes, spell-like abilities that aren't especially impressive, and skill boosters.

Let's see some really unique features in there. I'd like to be able to pick up information about objects and creatures easily, including unnecessary information that a creative player could leverage: Holmes, for example, can tell that Watson had an older brother who had squandered his success, taken to drink, and died a miserable man. He deduces this from Watson's watch alone. While knowing this may not offer mechanical advantages, a clever player could use it to help in a number of situations. And remember: Holmes is MAYBE 8th level at the MOST. Watson and others call him a mind reader and/or accuse him of using other methods to get information and faking his deductions. He's already making people suspect supernatural abilities or deception at sub-10 levels.

Moving on, a similar ability could be used to, say, identify illusions. While still perhaps unable to see what they're hiding, a detective could deduce they are illusions by sight, smell, or whatever inaccuracies may exist.

I' really recommend looking through the Holmes canon. He can deduce a TON of stuff that I'd love to see this class capable of replicating. As it is it's a skill/spell chassis with one or two unique abilities. I'd love so see that ratio reversed.

Grindle

2013-02-16, 10:10 PM

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-02-16, 10:24 PM

You know what, I give up. Someone please delete this thread.

Seems like an overreaction: you have some cool stuff here. You just need to figure out how to push the unique bits to the forefront of the class. The toughest part of class design is always this: you have to figure out what makes the class unique, and then showcase that in the mechanics and abilities. Don't worry if it takes a while: homebrew is NEVER an easy process, and is all about revision, revision, reimagining, and more revision.

So let's take a big step back: what do you want this class to provide to a group? Why should I want to play a Detective over a Rogue? What should he be able to so that the Rogue or Expert can't? I don't mean to discourage: I'd much rather offer my help in trying to make this an awesome, unique class that has something incredible and distinct to add to a game.

Frathe

2013-02-16, 11:41 PM

How's this for a reshuffling of abilities, only inventing one new one and keeping the distinctive abilities? It's rather empty at higher levels right now.

Detective

Alignment
Any.

Hit Die
d8.

Class Skills
The detective's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Survival (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.

{table=head]
Level |
Base Attack Bonus |
Fort Save |
Ref Save |
Will Save |
Special

1st | +0 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Study opponent +1d6, Urban Tracking, Track, elementary, deduction

2nd | +1 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Forensics

3rd | +2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | Study opponent +2d6, observation

4th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Identify substance

5th | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Study opponent +3d6, hard-boiled

6th | +4 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Contacts

7th | +5 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Study opponent +4d6

8th | +6/+1 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Pierce disguise

9th | +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +6 | Study opponent +5d6

10th | +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +7 |

11th | +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Study opponent +6d6

12th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 |

13th | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Study opponent +7d6

14th | +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 |

15th | +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +9 | Study opponent +8d6

16th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 |

17th | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Study opponent +9d6

18th | +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +11 |

19th | +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Study opponent +10d6

20th | +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 | [/table]
Class Features

All of the following are class features of the detective.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Detectives are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Detectives are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Study Opponent
Starting at 1st level, a detective can take a swift action to study an opponent, and from that point forward receives a bonus on weapon damage rolls against that opponent. This bonus can only apply to one opponent at a time; studying a new opponent shifts the bonus to attacks against that opponent. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two detective levels thereafter.

Urban Tracking
A detective gains Urban Tracking as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Track
A detective gains Track as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Elementary (Ex)
A detective can use Intelligence in place of Wisdom when making Survival checks made to track another creature, and for all Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.

Deduction (Ex)
A detective can draw on their knowledge of other fields to make untrained Knowledge checks.

Forensics (Ex)
At second level, a detective can draw on their deductive ability to determine what the state of a crime scene was at the moment of the crime. An Intelligence check, with special Forensics bonus added, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This bonus includes their detective level and a +2 for each clue found by a successful Search check at the crime scene; clues include hair, footprints, fingerprints, scales, blood, teeth, and discarded equipment. You cannot retry Forensics checks, unless you find further clues.

Forensics DCs

{table=head]
Task |
Forensics DC

Determine the type of crime that took place and the time at which it took place | 10

Determine the number of parties involved and their movements around the time of the crime | 20

Determine the approximate height, weight, race, and age of the parties involved | 25

Determine the identities of the parties involved | 30 [/table]

Observation (Ex)
At third level, a detective can gain insight into the habits and lives of other creatures through detailed observation and deduction. A Spot check, with the detective level added as a bonus, will determine the extent of their knowledge.

Observation DCs

{table=head]
Task |
Observation DC

Determine the age and sex of the creature (if of a known species). | 10

Determine the creature's occupation or manner of living. | 20

Determine the creature's region of origin and approximate place of habitance. | 25

Determine the creature's specific powers and weaknesses. | 30 [/table]

Identify Substance (Ex)
At fourth level, a detective can draw on their deductive ability to identify an unknown substance. An Intelligence check, with special Identify Substance bonus added, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This bonus includes their detective level and a +2 for each obvious distinguishing attribute of the substance (such as a distinctive color or smell). You cannot identify substances that you have no knowledge of, but you may be able to deduce their properties. You cannot retry Identify Substance checks, unless you find further information about the substance.

Identify Substance DCs

{table=head]
Task |
Identify Substance DC

Identify a common, widely known substance (such as blood or dyed water) | 10

Identify a rarer substance and its properties (such as a poison) | 20

Identify the properties of a singular or unknown substance | 30[/table]

Hard-Boiled
Beginning at fifth level, a detective is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Contacts (Ex)
At sixth level, a detective gains contacts. By spending a day acquainting themselves with a city, detectives can gain a number of contacts equal to their Charisma modifier plus one-half their detective level. In a city where they have contacts, detectives gain a +1 bonus to Gather Information checks for each contact.

Pierce Disguise (Ex)
Starting at eighth level, a detective can use their powers of observation to see through disguises particularly effectively. Before making Spot check in order to detect a disguise, a detective can also make a DC 20 Sense Motive check; if this Sense Motive check is successful, the detective adds a +10 bonus to the Spot check.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2013-02-16, 11:51 PM

That's a much better framework to build from, in my eyes. Much more class identity given much earlier.

Grindle

2013-02-17, 12:07 AM

Seems like an overreaction.

Probably. The constant cavalcade of criticism was wearing me down.

homebrew is NEVER an easy process, and is all about revision, revision, reimagining, and more revision.

When I'm in a bad mood, it seems to be entirely about revision.

I don't mean to discourage: I'd much rather offer my help in trying to make this an awesome, unique class that has something incredible and distinct to add to a game.

I know this when I'm not upset.

Edit: Thanks, Frathe. I've replaced the OP with your modification.

Grindle

2013-02-17, 02:04 PM

Added Improved Observation and Kinesics as class skills. Do these seem appropriate/useful for the class?

Grod_The_Giant

2013-02-17, 02:35 PM

Added Improved Observation and Kinesics as class skills. Do these seem appropriate/useful for the class?

Yeah! That's the kind of thing a class like this can use. Keep coming up with stuff like that, and you'll be golden.

sirpercival

2013-02-17, 03:37 PM

One thing here is that the theme of "detective" is broad enough that you can absolutely build modularity in (one of my favorite things to do for homebrewed classes). Feel free to ignore this idea, but you could organize abilities into thematically homogeneous packages of some sort, and allow the character to either (a) pick one or more when they enter the class, like domains; (b) select multiple packages as they level, like mantles; (c) choose a package daily, like binders; or (d) some combination of the three.

The packages could be something like...
The Observer: a master of deduction, picking up on the smallest details and using impeccable reasoning to solve crimes. This package would grant a bunch of (Ex) divination and awareness abilities.
The Meathead: a force of determination and grit who tracks down perps through sheer dumb luck and tenacity, then pulverizes them into submission before throwing them behind bars. This package would grant offensive abilities and ridiculous staying power.
The Flatfoot: a guy who hits the pavement and knows the streets (and its denizens) like the back of his hand. This package would grant some crowdworking abilities (gather info/urban tracking) and contacts stuff.
The Gentleman: a debonair, well-bred sir who solves murders at garden parties and on large estates. This package would give some Diplomacy-related abilities and contacts of a different sort.

This is by no means an exhaustive list; the number of packages you would need depends on the mechanics of them. If it's like domains, where you pick one at chargen and stick with it, you only need a few.

Grindle

2013-02-17, 03:52 PM

Grindle

2013-02-20, 01:49 AM

How does the new stuff (Master of Disguise, Influence, Foresight, and Reflection) look? It's up to 12th level!

Anyone have any ideas for more (preferably high-level) class features?

Grindle

2013-02-25, 02:10 PM

No responses.

Apparently, people are willing to complain about a class, but they're not willing to actually help build something.

Plato Play-Doh

2013-02-25, 02:30 PM

No responses.

Apparently, people are willing to complain about a class, but they're not willing to actually help build something.

That's possible, but it's also possible that nobody could think of anything to add to the conversation when they saw it, and then it got pushed off the first page. Out of sight, out of mind. That said, I like those updates you made (from your last post). I can't really think of any new features to add at this point, but I'll get back to you once I do.

SamBurke

2013-02-26, 11:00 AM

Why not kill two birds with one stone? You think that reading thoughts is too much for a normal, nonmagical person, and you need a capstone. Make it a sense motive check, opposed by the opponent's bluff check, as a free action to be able to tell exactly what one person is thinking, maybe once per day. We're talking something like the greatest detective imaginable, who makes Sherlock Holmes look slow and stupid, so it should be fine. Also, why does the detective get track as a bonus feat? That makes no sense, they don't have any particular affinity for the outdoors. Also, Elementary should probably apply to gather information (for urban tracking) rather than survival (for normal tracking).

As a note, Sherlock Holmes and several other detectives do this at supposedly low levels. They predict, exactly, what their target is thinking.

I'd also look at Detective TV shows. Look for stuff that'll be badass to do, even if it won't be "USEFUL" per se. Knowing with specificity some small detail about the BBEG. Perhaps they can figure out who's evil by their facial expressions towards others?

Frathe

2013-02-26, 12:27 PM

Knowing with specificity some small detail about the BBEG. Perhaps they can figure out who's evil by their facial expressions towards others?

Already a thing.

Kinesics (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a detective can use their knowledge of body language and psychology to determine the true state of a creature's mind. A Sense Motive check, with the detective level added as a bonus, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This Sense Motive check is opposed to the creature's Bluff check; if the Sense Motive check succeeds, the detective determines information about the creature based on the table below.

Kinesics DCs
{table=head] Task | Kinesics DC

Determine the creature's true emotional state. | 10

Determine the creature's alignment. | 20

Determine the creature's surface thoughts. | 30 [/table]

Grindle

2013-03-07, 03:11 AM

It's (re)done! :smallsmile:

How do the new abilities (basically levels 14-20) look?

(Anyone want to try using it? Probably not.)

Grindle

2013-03-08, 12:40 AM

When I first posted this class, I got plenty of responses. When I asked for PEACHing recently, there were none by the time it reached the second page. Any theories as to why that is?

Did people get tired of the class? Did not enough change for people to bother with it? Did I take so long that people lost interest? Is it so perfect now that people have nothing to say? (I don't think it's that one.)

(I'd still appreciate PEACHing.)

chdrake188

2013-03-08, 05:20 AM

Hi, this is my first post on the forums, and I hate to seem inexperienced or something, but I just wanted to let you know one of my players is using your class in my game. He's currently been using the crime scenes to build a profile of specific criminals, and he and his party mates have been hunting down said criminals and either killing them in poetic fashions or bringing the high priority ones in for bounties. While not the most powerful member of their party, I do have to say, he's become the MVP of the group, just from the sheer amount of information he can dig up whilst in an urban setting. He does lose some steam outside of their "home town/base", but that hasn't detracted from his enjoyment.

As a DM, it's made for a very unique and challenging experience, as I've never had to deal with a group assassinating my assassin's using the npc's personal habits to get them alone to be dealt with.

Please keep up the good work!

Grindle

2013-03-08, 06:22 PM

Seharvepernfan

2013-03-09, 05:18 PM

I would add Open Lock and Use Magic Device to their class skills.

I would lower the class bonus to observation and kinesics to 1/2 their class level.

Instead of straight-up immunity to fear, I would do incremental steps. Maybe a +1 bonus every two levels, added to will saves vs. fear effects and anti-intimidation rolls (and they get to use their Int vs. intimidation instead of wis)? They should be hard to scare, I agree, but total immunity? To me, that's the paladins' domain only.

This class is cool, but it's not going to really compare to other classes. When I try to determine what sherlock holmes' stats are, I always think factotum. Thing is, factotum is usually underwhelming itself - the abilities are cool but often unsubstantial, and you tend to run out of them quickly.

Personally, if I were to allow either the detective or the factotum in one of my games, I would probably allow a gestalt of the two (minus the study opponent ability). Now, inevitably, a lot of people are going to consider this heavyhanded, but I'm willing to bet that it works just fine in-game.

EDIT: I forgot to say; even if you don't like the gestalt idea, I'd strongly consider perusing the factotum class and stealing some (or most) of it's abilities and just adding them right on top of what you already have.

Grindle

2013-03-09, 11:08 PM

I'd rather not just combine this with the factotum class. I'll think about adding some factotum-influenced abilities, and some of the other changes you suggested.

General Patton

2013-03-10, 01:14 AM

Looks good. Maybe it should get Int to initiative.

I feel like detectives knowing someone is on their trail and setting up a trap/ambush for them might be a thing. Perhaps give the ability to make Gather Information checks and survival checks following your own tracks to determine if someone's been asking around or tracking you? Higher check results would give information on the person's habits for the purpose of predicting the next time(s) they will be tracking or directly observing you. With a little more psychology, body language, and acting, you could indirectly implant a Suggestion as an (Ex) ability, just by knowing what false conclusions/implications they will draw from your behavior.

They think you're going to the inn to ask a barkeep contact some questions and stay in your room, because you want them to think that, when really, you're going there to tell the barkeep to send burly men into your room following the intruder while you slip out the back to camp at your window with a crossbow while Studying Opponent. Exactly according to plan.

Grindle

2013-03-10, 04:00 PM

Looks good. Maybe it should get Int to initiative.

Detectives are meant to have decent Dex, so I'll probably leave initiative alone.

I feel like detectives knowing someone is on their trail and setting up a trap/ambush for them might be a thing. Perhaps give the ability to make Gather Information checks and survival checks following your own tracks to determine if someone's been asking around or tracking you? Higher check results would give information on the person's habits for the purpose of predicting the next time(s) they will be tracking or directly observing you.

As things stand, if you found tracks from someone that was following you, you could determine information about them. DMs could let players use abilities like Track/Gather Information to retrace their own trails if they needed to, so I'm probably not going to add a dedicated ability for that.

With a little more psychology, body language, and acting, you could indirectly implant a Suggestion as an (Ex) ability, just by knowing what false conclusions/implications they will draw from your behavior.

They think you're going to the inn to ask a barkeep contact some questions and stay in your room, because you want them to think that, when really, you're going there to tell the barkeep to send burly men into your room following the intruder while you slip out the back to camp at your window with a crossbow while Studying Opponent.

I've added this ability (at 12th level), under the name "Mislead".

chdrake188

2013-03-10, 04:41 PM

Glad to hear it worked for you. Out of curiosity, what version of the detective are you using?

My player is using your second version I think, it has the Study Opponent ability for extra damage, the deductive abilities (Kinesics, Foresight, Contacts, etc).

He's currently a Detective 10/ Master of Masks 1.

Grindle

2013-03-10, 04:48 PM

My player is using your second version I think, it has the Study Opponent ability for extra damage, the deductive abilities (Kinesics, Foresight, Contacts, etc).

He's currently a Detective 10/ Master of Masks 1.

You might want to switch to the newest version or use some higher level abilities from the newest version (because the the version I think you're using doesn't have a lot of higher level abilities. My fault. :smallredface:)

chdrake188

2013-03-10, 04:53 PM

I'll ask him to double check, also, we added a couple of knowledge skills to his class list, as my players made an argument that a detective should have Knowledge (Geography, Nobility/Royalty, and Nature) as class skills.

Jeff the Green

2013-03-10, 06:58 PM

First, I'll give you my overall impression, then a fisking of the features.

I didn't see the original version, but I think it still suffers a little from what Djinn in Tonic mentioned. Probably not anywhere near as much, but a little, still.

The abilities are pretty vague in places and the DCs can be wonky. I'd go over some basic idea of how often you want someone to succeed with a certain thing and then what their bonus is likely to be (remember it's usually going to be more than level + 3 + ability; there are a bunch of miscellaneous bonuses you can add to skills). In the information gathering skills, be more specific about what you can accomplish.

Honestly I'd give them some (Ex) versions of spells. Like Djinn in Tonic said, Holmes was maybe level 8 and could effectively read minds; there's no reason this class couldn't have the ability to literally read them. You did this with mislead, but I'd suggest turning some of the other high-level abilities into (Ex) divinations like true seeing (maybe with a Spot check for rounds based on the check, usable once per 10 minutes), contact other plane (maybe d20 + Int + 1/2 level, the number of questions you can ask and the probability of success depends on the result), and I'm sure there are others. Improved Foresight could be easily be foresight for a handful of minutes per day.

Short commentary on most of the individual features:
Chassis: Standard rogue. HD seems a bit high for the job, but not excessively.

Study Opponent: Strictly better than sneak attack, but then sneak attack isn't all that powerful. Is this precision damage?

(Urban) Tracking, Elementary, Deduction: Nifty, but a little boring for 1st level. Deduction should specify you make untrained Knowledge checks as though you were trained, since you can make untrained Knowledge checks normally, you're just limited in their effect.

Find Clues: Where is it?

Forensics: There's a problem here: the DCs don't scale. I don't doubt that you should be able to solve even exceptionally difficult crimes with ease at, oh, 15th level (which is the point where you could easily take 10 and instantly succeed with no shenanigans and no clues). But what if the crime was committed by a literal ghost? A spellcaster using an epic spell? Hell, 5% of the time you could succeed without

I think this should be a more complicated system, honestly. Make clues, Sense Motive, etc. more important, make the DCs scale with something like the CR, the Int, the Wis, or something like that, of the perpetrator. And give a chance of critical failure: not just not knowing, but drawing the wrong conclusion. (Make the die roll secret for the same reason.)

Observation: You need to account for disguise here.

Kinesics: Make these if you beat the Bluff check by X. (And someone not bluffing counts as 0)

Identify Subtance: Clarify what "having knowledge of" a substance means. I suggest a Knowledge check.

Contacts: Way, way too low of a bonus.

Improved Observation: Decent.

Piece Disguise: This seems excessive. Maybe something like half class level to spot?

Foresight: A late Uncanny Dodge. Eh.

Evasion: Also late, but better than never I suppose.

Mislead: So a DC 30 Bluff to use suggestion, and then they also get a Will save? It's okay, but I'd just be sure to have a wand of glibness around. Personally I'd just make it suggestion 1/day, DC 10 + Int + (4 x clues).

Reflection: Way, way too vague.

Adopt Persona: Coolish. Some advantages over a wand of disguise self, but not a lot.

Improved Foresight: Easily obtained earlier via magic items.

Pierce Illusion: Decent, but late in the game. At this point you probably have access to true seeing.

Omniscience: Vague and weak.

Prediction: I like the idea of this ability. But it's weak as written and the DCs are a bit off. You will basically never roll less than 15 on this, and at least as rarely hit 40.

I hope this helps. I really like the basic idea and basing all or most of your abilities on skill checks (I do so wish the Truenamer hadn't been dysfunctional). Get things a little cleaner and this will be what the Rogue should have been!

ThirdEmperor

2013-03-10, 07:10 PM

Looking outside the mechanics of the class for a moment, I've got to ask, in what kind of campaign do you envision a character of this class being played?

Outside of a mystery game, it's more or less useless due to a great deal of it's abilities being focused on, well, detective-work, and the rest being not so great.

Inside of a mystery game, I personally wouldn't allow it if I was the DM, because it reduces solving the mystery to making a series of skill checks.

I mean, Forensics alone basically gives away the whole scenario if the check is successful enough. Given 4 ranks, a decent ability modifier and Skill Focus, a first level Detective can and will instantly ruin a mystery plot one time out of twenty. And that's before clues are factored in, five clues and it's fifty fifty.

So, my problem with this class is, there's no point in using it outside a very specific and none-too-common type of campaign, and so good inside that type of campaign as to render all other classes largely pointless, save for maybe a Tier 1 spellcaster.

Empedocles

2013-03-12, 06:31 PM

I'm peaching this since you posted in the PEACH Exchange thread, so if you could return the favor on my proteus class that would be hugely appreciated! :smallsmile: I'll be PEACHING in bold.

Class Skills
The detective's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Survival (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ×4.

I feel like this could be an 8 skill point class, actually. Skills are the D&D equivalent of what defined a Sherlock Holmes type character.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

[/size]Detectives are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Detectives are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Study Opponent
Starting at 1st level, a detective can take a swift action to study an opponent, and from that point forward receives a bonus on weapon damage rolls against that opponent. This bonus can only apply to one opponent at a time; studying a new opponent shifts the bonus to attacks against that opponent. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two detective levels thereafter.

I think that when the detective studies an opponent, he should also gain a bonus on things like Bluff or Diplomacy checks. This is the detective completely analyzing his enemy, not just searching for a "hole in his armor."

Urban Tracking
A detective gains Urban Tracking as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Track
A detective gains Track as a bonus feat at 1st level.

Elementary (Ex)
A detective can use Intelligence in place of Wisdom when making Survival checks made to track another creature, and for all Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.

Deduction (Ex)
A detective can draw on their knowledge of other fields to make untrained Knowledge checks.

Forensics (Ex)
Starting at 2nd level, a detective can draw on their deductive ability to determine what the state of a crime scene was at the moment of the crime. An Intelligence check, with special Forensics bonus added, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This bonus includes their detective level and a +2 for each clue found by a successful Search check at the crime scene; clues include hair, footprints, fingerprints, scales, blood, teeth, and discarded equipment. You cannot retry Forensics checks, unless you find further clues.

Forensics DCs
{table=head]
Task (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)|
Forensics DC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)

Determine the type of crime that took place and the time at which it took place|10

Determine the number of parties involved and their movements around the time of the crime|20

Determine the approximate height, weight, race, and age of the parties involved|25

Determine the identities of the parties involved|30[/table]

This is a pretty cool ability. Does it basically apply whenever he finds a corpse though? What about people who've died from seemingly unnatural causes or even just disease? I think this should cover a more broad range of things.

Observation (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a detective can gain insight into the habits and lives of other creatures through detailed observation and deduction. A Spot check, with the detective level added as a bonus, will determine the extent of their knowledge.

Observation DCs
{table=head]
Task (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)|
Observation DC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)

Determine the age and sex of the creature (if of a known species).|10

Determine the creature's occupation or manner of living.|20

Determine the creature's region of origin and approximate place of habitance.|25

Determine the creature's specific powers and weaknesses.|30[/table]

Kinesics (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a detective can use their knowledge of body language and psychology to determine the true state of a creature's mind. A Sense Motive check, with the detective level added as a bonus, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This Sense Motive check is opposed to the creature's Bluff check; if the Sense Motive check succeeds, the detective determines information about the creature based on the table below.

Kinesics DCs
{table=head] Task | Kinesics DC

Determine the creature's true emotional state. | 10

Determine the creature's alignment. | 20

Determine the creature's surface thoughts. | 30 [/table]
Hard-Boiled
Beginning at 4th level, a detective is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Easily my favorite ability on here by far. Maybe lowering the DCs a little would help it see more use (I think 10-15-20-25 would be a better progression, personally)

Identify Substance (Ex)
Starting at 5th level, a detective can draw on their deductive ability to identify an unknown substance. An Intelligence check, with special Identify Substance bonus added, will determine the extent of their knowledge. This bonus includes their detective level and a +2 for each obvious distinguishing attribute of the substance (such as a distinctive color or smell). You cannot identify substances that you have no knowledge of, but you may be able to deduce their properties. You cannot retry Identify Substance checks, unless you find further information about the substance.

Identify Substance DCs
{table=head]
Task (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)|
Identify Substance DC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271469&page=2#)

Identify a common, widely known substance (such as blood or dyed water)|10

Identify a rarer substance and its properties (such as a poison)|20

Identify the properties of a singular or unknown substance|30[/table]

Also pretty neat, if somewhat limited in its applications.

Contacts (Ex)
At 6th level, a detective gains contacts. By spending a day acquainting themselves with a city, detectives can gain a number of contacts equal to their Charisma modifier plus one-half their detective level. In a city where they have contacts, detectives gain a +1 bonus to Gather Information checks for each contact.

I got so happy when I read the first half of this ability, and so sad when I read the second half. So much potential, but, uh...just a bonus to Gather Information?! No, no, no you could load this ability up with so much more interesting things! At the very least, throw in a little blurb about what the DM can allow the detective to do, but I'd really like to see this expanded.

Improved Observation (Ex)Starting at 7th level, a detective can gain further insight into the habits and experiences of other creatures through more advanced observation and deduction. A detective can now make Observation checks to learn specific facts about a given creature; for every four points the check result exceeds 30, the detective learns another fact about the creature.
Examples of facts:
The creature's previous occupation.
Information about the creature's family.
The creature's prior location.

Improved Observation also allows a detective to determine information about an item's owner by inspecting only the item. This functions like ordinary Improved Observation, but with a -10 penalty. [/size]

Pierce Disguise (Ex)
Starting at 8th level, a detective can use their powers of observation to see through disguises particularly effectively. Before making Spot check in order to detect a disguise, a detective can also make a DC 20 Sense Motive check; if this Sense Motive check is successful, the detective adds a +10 bonus to the Spot check.

Foresight (Ex)
Starting at 9th level, a detective can use their knowledge of other creatures’ behavior and psychology to predict the creatures’ upcoming actions. They are never surprised or flat-footed, and gain a +1 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever the detective would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

Master of Disguise (Ex)
Starting at 10th level, a detective can use their knowledge of behavior and psychology to perfect the art of disguise. A detective who is a master of disguise receives a bonus equal to ½ their detective level to all Disguise checks, and viewers making Spot checks against them do not receive familiarity bonuses.

I think this comes a little late...and I think you could even go as far as an alter self type ability.

Evasion (Ex)
At 11th level and higher, a detective can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if the detective is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless detective does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Mislead (Ex)
Beginning at 12th level, a detective can use their knowledge of psychology and acting to mislead other creatures into taking particular actions. The result of an attempt to mislead is decided by a DC 30 Bluff check, with a +4 bonus added for each Observation or Kinesics check made on the creature that exceeds 30. This functions like the spell suggestion, with a Will saving throw (DC 10 + ½ detective's level + detective's Int modifier) negating the effect.

Reflection (Ex)
Starting at 13th level, a detective can use their powers of deduction to make new connections between pieces of known information. A detective can spend one day pondering known information, with an Intelligence check, with half their detective level added, determining the outcome. Upon success, a detective realizes one or more connections between relevant subjects.

Reflection DCs
{table=head] Task | Reflection DC

A wide body of relevant information is available | 10

A reasonable amount of information is available. | 15

Some facts are known, but many are uncertain. | 20

Little is known about the subjects at hand. | 30 [/table]

Examples of connections:
Realize that a prominent person has ties to a criminal organization.

Realize the true nature of a relationship between two people.

Realize a possible motivation for a crime.

Pretty good!

Improved Find Clues (Ex)
Starting at 14th level, the range of a detective's Find Clues skill increases to 15 ft.

Adopt Persona (Ex)
Beginning at 15th level, a detective can combine their knowledge of human psychology, their powers of observation, and their acting ability in order to adopt a persona. A detective using this skill can assume a disguise, usable with the Disguise skill, with no preparation time necessary, as long as the intended disguise is of the same race and gender.

Improved Foresight (Ex)
At 16th level and higher, a detective's predictive abilities become so powerful that the detective can no longer be flanked.

Why not also expand the AC bonus? Or make it something like equal to his intelligence/wisdom bonus to begin with.

Pierce Illusion (Ex)
Starting at 17th level, detectives are automatically suspicious of all illusions, and gain a bonus equal to half their detective level to Will saves made against illusion effects.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex)
While in any sort of urban terrain, a detective of 18th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Omniscience (Ex)
Beginning at 19th level, a detective can draw on their extensive experience and superior knowledge to find information relevant to a given situation. An Intelligence check, plus half their detective level, will determine the outcome.

Omniscience DCs
{table=head] Task | Omniscience DC

Vague, loosely relevant information is gained. | 10

General, but somewhat relevant information is gained. | 20

Relevant, useful information is gained. | 30 [/table]

Prediction (Ex)
At 20th level and higher, a detective can use their intellect and experience to predict the outcomes of particular actions. An Intelligence check, plus half their detective level, will determine the prediction made.

Prediction DCs
{table=head] Task | Prediction DC

A vague prediction. | 10

A helpful prediction, but with details missing. | 20

A relevant and useful prediction. | 30

A very detailed and specific prediction. | 40 [/table]

Here's the deal: for what you were trying to accomplish, this is an incredible class. But no matter what you do, it won't really be very playable outside of a high mystery type game. My personal suggestion would be to make it a PrC with almost all the same class features, but condensed into half as many levels. I think that'd be a lot better. On the other hand, you could continue giving him abilities in the vein of Robert Downey Jr.'s Sherlock Holmes interpretation (able to kick ass also) which might make this a lot more playable outside of mystery type games.

Also, give him full a full base attack progression...it just seems silly not to.

EDIT: I haven't read over what other people said about the class, so if people have already mentioned some of these ideas, feel free to ignore me :smalltongue:

Grindle

2013-03-13, 12:10 AM

The abilities are pretty vague in places and the DCs can be wonky. I'd go over some basic idea of how often you want someone to succeed with a certain thing and then what their bonus is likely to be (remember it's usually going to be more than level + 3 + ability; there are a bunch of miscellaneous bonuses you can add to skills). In the information gathering skills, be more specific about what you can accomplish.

I'll probably take another look at the ability DCs. I just made up descriptions for different DCs when I created the abilities based on loose ideas of difficulty; they weren't meant to be specific, but maybe they're unhelpfully vague.

Honestly I'd give them some (Ex) versions of spells. Like Djinn in Tonic said, Holmes was maybe level 8 and could effectively read minds; there's no reason this class couldn't have the ability to literally read them. You did this with mislead, but I'd suggest turning some of the other high-level abilities into (Ex) divinations like true seeing (maybe with a Spot check for rounds based on the check, usable once per 10 minutes), contact other plane (maybe d20 + Int + 1/2 level, the number of questions you can ask and the probability of success depends on the result), and I'm sure there are others. Improved Foresight could be easily be foresight for a handful of minutes per day.

I'm going to explain why I've mostly avoided giving detectives spells. I have nothing against giving mundane classes spells as extraordinary abilities; it's just that most of the spells people suggest are inappropriate for actual use.
For example, Contact Other Plane has a chance of Int/Cha loss, and True Seeing allows the user to see into the ethereal plane, neither of which make sense for a detective.
Foresight seems like a good suggestion, though.

I'll probably overhaul Forensics and some of the other abilities a bit (mostly Reflection, Omniscience, and Prediction).

So, my problem with this class is, there's no point in using it outside a very specific and none-too-common type of campaign, and so good inside that type of campaign as to render all other classes largely pointless, save for maybe a Tier 1 spellcaster.

This class doesn't instantly solve all mysteries, like you seem to think (knowing who was at a crime scene and how they moved around doesn't tell you their motivation or current whereabouts, or discount some sort of set-up). And from the feedback I've gotten (from someone who's used it), it does serve a purpose in a non-mystery focused campaign.

Here's the deal: for what you were trying to accomplish, this is an incredible class. But no matter what you do, it won't really be very playable outside of a high mystery type game. My personal suggestion would be to make it a PrC with almost all the same class features, but condensed into half as many levels. I think that'd be a lot better. On the other hand, you could continue giving him abilities in the vein of Robert Downey Jr.'s Sherlock Holmes interpretation (able to kick ass also) which might make this a lot more playable outside of mystery type games.

Also, give him full a full base attack progression...it just seems silly not to.

This class wasn't meant to be combat oriented, so I'm not sure about the full base attack progression. x8 skill points seems a little high to me. Study Opponent was just meant to be a combat ability (like sneak attack), so I don't plan to extend it. I'll probably overhaul Forensics, Kinesics, Identify Substance, Contacts, Improved Foresight, and Master of Disguise (but not with Alter Self, because that just gives a +10 to Disguise checks).

Ziegander

2013-03-13, 12:43 AM

I love this class! At first I expected it to be a quick, shoddy attempt at class design (no offense, I've just been at the game for a decade or so, and I've seen lots of poor Detective classes), but you blew me away with surprising combat power and original class features! However, there are still some issues; you have to address the following (my own additions to Jeff's comments in red):

Find Clues: Where is it?

Kinesics: Make these [DCs] if you beat the Bluff check by X. (And someone not bluffing counts as 0)

Identify Subtance: Clarify what "having knowledge of" a substance means. I suggest a Knowledge check.

Reflection: Way, way too vague. I'm finding it very difficult to determine what exactly this ability allows you to do that your other, earlier gained detection abilities do not. There should be guidelines on what sort of information can be expected to be gathered by this ability, and this information desperately needs to be exclusive to the Reflection ability so that using it offers a new tool to the Detective's arsenal, rather than a mish-mash of stuff he could already do. You could simply have the ability grant the Detective a number of yes/no questions, based on the DC passed by the check, posed to the DM about a topic which the DM must answer truthfully.

Adopt Persona: Coolish. Some advantages over a wand of disguise self, but not a lot. I would add that such a disguise only works against people that do not already know the Detective.

Improved Foresight: Easily obtained earlier via magic items. Since immunity to flanking is much easier to obtain than immunity to surprise, I would switch those benefits. Move the flanking immunity to Foresight and stick immunity to surprise here with Improved.

Omniscience: Vague and weak. This is your 19th level ability. What does it do?

Prediction: I like the idea of this ability. But it's weak as written and the DCs are a bit off. You will basically never roll less than 15 on this, and at least as rarely hit 40. As your 20th level ability, I would expect this to do much more than it does.

What I love about this class is how easy it is to play in and out of combat, and how much stuff it is able to do that no other class can. It seems like it would be a blast to try in game, and though it could stand to be tweaked just a bit, it's very well-balanced. Kudos to you, sir!

Grindle

2013-03-15, 01:48 PM

I've seen lots of poor Detective classes

I hadn't known anyone else had done this, but I guess it's not surprising.

What I love about this class is how easy it is to play in and out of combat, and how much stuff it is able to do that no other class can. It seems like it would be a blast to try in game, and though it could stand to be tweaked just a bit, it's very well-balanced. Kudos to you, sir!

Thank you! :smallbiggrin:

I've overhauled most of the higher level abilities (all of the ones people were complaining about). How's it look?

(Specifically, Contacts, Forensics, Reflection, Omniscience, Prediction, and Mislead. I may have left some out.)

Ziegander

2013-03-15, 04:18 PM

I've overhauled most of the higher level abilities (all of the ones people were complaining about). How's it look?

(Specifically, Contacts, Forensics, Reflection, Omniscience, Prediction, and Mislead. I may have left some out.)

Well, contacts is now confusing and has some potential issues. The text doesn't really explain or reference that table, and would seem to contradict it.

I'm still not at all sure what exactly Reflection or Prediction are supposed to be doing. You need to explain what the mechanical effects are in much more detail than, "a general connection is established," and/or "a relevant and useful prediction." What do those phrases mean in game terms? I understand numbers and rules don't easily apply to these abilities, so my suggestion would be to write up an example of each ability's usage in-game. Then show, for that example, what sort of information a successful check at each DC for each ability would offer. Otherwise, things are looking pretty great.

Also, instead of Improved Foresight granting the traditional Foresight spell (which is also incredibly vague and potentially weak for a 9th level spell), might I suggest that you use the Cosmic Awareness spell I wrote found HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12482585&postcount=2) in the 10th level spells section? You could offer the use of it once per day at a 10 minutes/level duration, or you could simply say that the Detective may benefit from the effect for a total number of minutes per day equal to his class level. On a related note, perhaps the "cannot be surprised" portion of your 12th level Foresight class feature is a little much at that point?

Grindle

2013-03-27, 12:40 AM

Well, I've been busy, but I've gotten around to adding examples for Prediction and Reflection. When doing this, I also revised Reflection a bit, because I realized I wasn't sure how it would actually be useful. I also fixed contacts (that was just a mistake) and changed the Foresight feature like you suggested.

Reflection Example: Why did the suspects leave a trail of bread crumbs?

DC 10 – Birds ate most of the breadcrumbs. The trail is similar to a trail of pebbles nearby.

DC 20 – Both the trail of breadcrumbs and a trail of pebbles lead away from their house into the woods.

DC 30 – The suspects were abandoned by their stepmother, and placed the trail to avoid becoming lost.

Prediction Example:
Who will be the next king of Moralia?

DC 10 – a member of the royal family.

DC 20 – the prince who is now in line for the throne.

DC 30 – Prince Hubert von Dinkel, upon the assassination of his father by the king of Borane, Pintuvius XI.

Fedrik

2013-03-27, 01:17 AM

Seeing this for the first time, and loving it. I read the entire thread to get a good feel for its development, even!

I'm running an urban campaign at home. I have a minor NPC investigator type that I've stated as a rogue. He's gonna become more prominent to the point of almost becoming another PC, so I think I'll restat him using your class and see how that goes... I'll let you know how it works!