OOTS #372 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Yesterday, I had some personal things that prevented me from getting a comic up; since it was a bonus Tuesday comic anyway, I figured it was OK. But with luck we'll be back to bonus comics tomorrow.

[Erloas]

nothing painfully funny, and nothing greatly quotable, but a very solid and funny strip non-the-less

I almost thought they were just going to wander off and forget to kill her in the end. But it looks like she lives on. Not quite sure what is left to do with the Miko/Xykon thing. I assume he'll probably just leave her there and head back to his army and she will have little choice but to sit around waiting for that forcecage to expire then heading back to Azure city to warn them.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Aww, c'mon, you gotta have a little demon cockroach standing at a pulpet somewhere in there!

Edit: By the way, does bring up an interesting point. Do any paladins fear becoming evil?

[Dawnstrider_Moogle]

"As indignant speeches go I've heard better" - brilliant!
I also liked the argument...very interesting.

[krossbow]

See; even that speech doesn't make Miko blink. She's heard it all before, she's not going to fall over some little thing like this.

[Faramir]

Hmm, not where I expected this to be going...

[Spiky]

Very strange. But unpredictability is good, shut's up the "Giant stole my idea from the forum" people.

[Holy_Knight]

That was cute. :smallsmile: And I must say, Miko has been doing unexpectedly well in the comebacks department the last couple of strips.

[Solara]

Wooo! Great speech! Go Redcloak! You're #1!

I knew they weren't actually going to kill her, but I was trying to figure out what would make Xykon realistically pass on that. Trust my favorite 100% all natural goblin to step in and say just the right thing. (Well, favorite except for Complains of Names, that is, but that's a whole nother comic...)

Heh. Though I almost snorted Sprite out of my nose at some of Xykon's lines ('You dare compare me to a paladin!?') so I guess they're about even.

Also, nice way to slip a reference to #251 into that last panel there...

Edit: Damn, never gotten a post even close to...that place I can't mention before, and now I can't even mention it.

[Swashbuckler]

Meh. As comics go, I've seen better.

:biggrin:

[Alchemistmerlin]

Hell yes.

Miko fails hard, oh how it overjoys me. Now all we need is that killing blow and the world will be a far better place.

Come on Xykon, make us proud.

[Tmabbbb]

Not as good as some others, but considering it was a bonus OOTS, I enjoyed it. Especially that "as far as indignant speeches go, I've heard better".

[Tiako]

Aww, c'mon, you gotta have a little demon cockroach standing at a pulpet somewhere in there!

Edit: By the way, does bring up an interesting point. Do any paladins fear becoming evil?
In real world terms: Nobody thinks they are evil, because from their perspective they are doing good. In RPG terms: Paladins strike me more as beings of action rather than of thought.

And what roach? I didn't see one in today's. (EDIT: Nevermind, i misread your post).

[fwiffo]

Nice. A psychoanalysis by Redcloak, and a pretty darn effective one too. He is quickly rising to a major character.

OTOH, I found the last panel to be out of character for both Xykon and Miko. Xykon doesn't give that much thought to killing. And Miko doesn't make jokes like that.

[Spiky]

I find it curious that Miko is nicer to the actual villains than to Roy, even in conversation/fighting with the villains she goes after Roy with more anger.

I think someone's in love.

[Cyclone231]

Ugh, I wanted to like Miko. I really did. But this whole thing with Xykon has made her out to be such a visceral, single-minded, self-righteous morale crusader, far more than any encounter with the Order of the Stick has ever done.

[theKOT]

I'm glad Miko has the sense left in her half-insane mind to ignore the biased prattlings of an evil cleric. Note though: he is partially correct. Miko's problems come from repressed emotions and a lack of honest self-inspection.

Now as to a rating

This comic has nothing strong in it. The dialogue is tedious(however necessary), the plot moves an inch and the jokes are yawnfests. I gotta say, I've come to expect more. 3/10

[DougWykstra]

I don't know much about D&D, but that's not really a class feature of paladins, is it?

I like this comic alright, but I have this sneaking suspicion that Rich is throwing away a chance to make Miko more complex a character, and is instead getting up on his soapbox about how horrible judgemental people are. But since he hasn't even finished this arc, I'm willing to watch where it goes, and not assume that one of Rich's D&D characters was touched in an inappropriate manner by a paladin when he (the character) was a child.

[Renegade Paladin]

I don't know much about D&D, but that's not really a class feature of paladins, is it?
No, not as such. Paladins are immune to the mechanical effects of terror (effectively, they don't piss their pants and run away), but that doesn't mean that they are completely lacking an entire facet of emotion.

[Hyrael]

wow, I never thought of "immune to fear" that way. you make a good point rich.

[5tephen]

Represent, Redcloak!

[Miraqariftsky]

And so is born a maelstrom of chaotic currents
Of suffering sinful self and faltering faith
Lo! The god-wrought walls crumble,
And a tide of darkness floods
The now-hark'nin' heart...

[Axl_Rose]

lol - wow. I wonder how long it'll be befor they regret letting her live.

[Tiako]

Ugh, I wanted to like Miko. I really did. But this whole thing with Xykon has made her out to be such a visceral, single-minded, self-righteous morale crusader, far more than any encounter with the Order of the Stick has ever done.

Just for the fun of it, let me give Miko's perspective: She has been crusading against evil forces for quite some time. In that time, she has seen villages massacred, innocents slaughtered, and all manner of unspeakable brutality. Now, after that, you are encountering Xycon, and lich, a being who is by its very nature incredibly evil, and is trying to destroy the world. I bet you would be a bit moralistic too, wouldn't you?

Besides, you are taking moral advice for a...thing that regularly kills his subordinate and turns them into zombies (Yes, Redcloak does that too). I could understand Roy, but Xycon?

[Finwe]

Hehe, I love Xykon. He's so evil


"You dare compare me to a paladin?"



But where did Miko's weapons go?

[krossbow]

lol - wow. I wonder how long it'll be befor they regret letting her live.

about 5 panels, giver or take.

[Atheist_Cleric]

Well it's official, no one in the OOTS world likes Miko. And frankly, i'm inclined to agree. It's not just what Redcloak has been saying, but what happened in the previous strip...Miko's one saving grace used to be that she was at least fair on a bare low level. But the second she heard an UNDEAD LICH, quite possibly one of the hardest creatures to get rid of for keeps, was alive, one that the OOTS clamied to have beaten, she went nuts. It couldnt have been that he had a phylactery. It couldnt have been that he revived some other way. It couldnt have been that he faked his defeat, no it had to be that the OOTS used some kind of never-before-seen magic to fool a celstial of pure justice and a court of paladins into believing that they had beaten Xykon. Give me a break. She was desperate for something to give her an excuse to kill the whole damn team on sight next time she encounters them. Yet she doesnt even believe that, she thinks all she's doing is following the path that is right, because a paladin can never be wrong, as well as not having fear.

I swear, I doubt Miko will die in this comic, I think she'll break. She's close already, and another push will do it. Nothing more satisfying than seeing a self-righteous bully break. Hah, I hope that somehow she finds out her master Lord Shojo actually faked the whole trial, and secrelt was responsible for freeing Belkar. That would crack her like an egg, she'd either go nuts and lose all her paladin powers through wrongful violent actions....or she'd kill Shojo and try to claim control of the Sapphire Guard. God help the whole world if she did.

[Renegade Paladin]

Even if she did kill Shojo, Hinjo is next in line to command the Sapphire Guard. Shojo aside, Hinjo is in fact a paladin, so she'd have a hard time justifying stripping him of his inheritance even if she could.

[Kamakazee_Gnome]

"Courage is not the absence of fear, but the conquest of it."

I think that Miko's reaction is perfectly suitable -- nothing annoys a villian like a response of "bite me."

[reorith]

"fight or fight some more"
i'll be bringing that up in psychology later today

[garylian]

While the speech may not have been brilliant, getting lectured on being essentially a construct by a goblin is nothing short of cutting.

Unfortunately, Miko is too wooden to recognize the irony.

Great work, Giant! This has been a fun interlude so far!

[ref]

Miko is just the best

[fwiffo]

Even if she did kill Shojo, Hinjo is next in line to command the Sapphire Guard. Shojo aside, Hinjo is in fact a paladin, so she'd have a hard time justifying stripping him of his inheritance even if she could.

I think you are underestimating her ability to justify to herself that she is absolutely right regardless of the actions she takes. Give the girl some credit. If anyone can convince herself that she is right and everyone else is wrong, it is Miko.

[Skyserpent]

While the speech may not have been brilliant, getting lectured on being essentially a construct by a goblin is nothing short of cutting.

Unfortunately, Miko is too wooden to recognize the irony.

Great work, Giant! This has been a fun interlude so far!

Do you expect the wooden to understand the iron? You can't make a Longsword out of Darkwood. (Not a GOOD one anyway...)

[McBish]

This makes me like Redcloak a lot more than ever before. He is at the moment my favorite villian.

[TinSoldier]

I think you are underestimating her ability to justify to herself that she is absolutely right regardless of the actions she takes. Give the girl some credit. If anyone can convince herself that she is right and everyone else is wrong, it is Miko.Hmm. I don't really see that myself.

As for the comic, it was okay. Can't wait for the next one!

[Skyserpent]

I think you are underestimating her ability to justify to herself that she is absolutely right regardless of the actions she takes. Give the girl some credit. If anyone can convince herself that she is right and everyone else is wrong, it is Miko.

Except Miko is infinitely loyal to the Azure Guard as she is to her own sense of righteous justice. If not more so, she would much more likely think that her leader was easily swayed. which she seems fine with since Shojo has been doing that crap for a few years now...

[Solara]

I think you are underestimating her ability to justify to herself that she is absolutely right regardless of the actions she takes. Give the girl some credit. If anyone can convince herself that she is right and everyone else is wrong, it is Miko.

If she finds out the truth about Shojo and flips out, all Hinjo would do by trying to stop her is prove that he's willingly siding with evil and needs to be killed himself for standing in the way of good. You know, like Durkon.

For what it's worth I'm sure she would say something to the effect that she's regretful that he's forced her into it before attacking him though.

[DougWykstra]

Besides, you are taking moral advice for a...thing that regularly kills his subordinate and turns them into zombies (Yes, Redcloak does that too).

Does Redcloak do this? I know he sacrifices hobgoblins regularly, but I can't remember him turning anything into a zombie.

Also, I'm still wondering about that "no fear" thing. If it's an actual magical procedure, sort of the D&D equivalent of taking drugs that negate the chemicals in the brain that cause the "flight" response, then, yeah, abomination. Or at least unnatural. But if it's just something like faith in one's god(s) or cause, well, those things seem quite natural, and still capable of producing similar effect.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

"Meh. As indignant speeches go, I've heard better."

That would be V saying how he likes Belkar better than Miko, right?

Wow, Miko's shaping up to be a better paladin than I thought. Though Xylon's Darth Vader speech was fairly poor...

[Thexare Blademoon]

I think that Miko's reaction is perfectly suitable -- nothing annoys a villian like a response of "bite me."

Unless that villain is a dragon. Then it's just a lunch invitation. :smallbiggrin:

I actually liked Redcloak's speech. But then, he's one of my favorite characters, so it might just be bias speaking.

[Sergeantbrother]

For the love of all things unholy, Xykon just kill her and get it over with.

[Hallavast]

I have to say, Redcloak's speech was pretty dull. I still see Miko as having moral confidence and superiority over him. Is it even that insulting to call someone "unnatural"? I mean, where is Redcloak going with this? I don't see it having any effect at all. Neither was it humorous on any decent level. They could have gained so much more by simply killing the wench and bringing her head on a pike to shojo's doorstep.

[Renegade Paladin]

Does Redcloak do this? I know he sacrifices hobgoblins regularly, but I can't remember him turning anything into a zombie.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html

[yuccadude]

I take offense to that(myself being myopic). Shortsightedness is something you can't help, unless it's like this case, in which it's a philosophical lack...

[Finwe]

But if it's just something like faith in one's god(s) or cause, well, those things seem quite natural, and still capable of producing similar effect.


Its not how someone looses all fear that matters, but that fact that they have removed the potential to feel an essential emotion that makes them an abomination. Not having fear for one's personal safety in the face of an enemy is one thing. Not having any fear at all would imply that you don't even fear for the safety of others.

[J_Muller]

I thought Redcloak's speech was both sensible and chuckleworthy. Most of the chuckles were from the "cajones" line, though.

[the_tick_rules]

i'd have to say miko still seems rational. her blackguard stock has gone down in my book. i think the blackgaurd folk may have jumped the gun a bit.

well as a paladin miko is immune to fear effects hehe. but she meant she has faith that the gods will reward her service so death is not something to be afraid of for her.

[TinSoldier]

Its not how someone looses all fear that matters, but that fact that they have removed the potential to feel an essential emotion that makes them an abomination. Not having fear for one's personal safety in the face of an enemy is one thing. Not having any fear at all would imply that you don't even fear for the safety of others.Right. And his quote is the kind of immunity to fear that Miko has as a paladin. Not immunity to fear for the safety of others.

[Querzis]

I didnt thought it was possible but I hate paladin even more now. Redcloak, you are my hero! Go 100% natural goblins!

[CockroachTeaParty]

Come on Xykon... KILL HER!! END HER PITIFUL LIFE!! KILL! KILL!

:belkar:

[Renegade Paladin]

Its not how someone looses all fear that matters, but that fact that they have removed the potential to feel an essential emotion that makes them an abomination. Not having fear for one's personal safety in the face of an enemy is one thing. Not having any fear at all would imply that you don't even fear for the safety of others.
Which is why paladins don't lack fear. They are unaffected by it. There is a very real difference. See the ability description. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#auraofCourage) Being immune to it strongly implies that it's there; otherwise it would just say that a paladin fears nothing or knows no fear.

Also, it's called aura of courage. See my sig.

[Lerch]

The only thing my paladin feared was an aquatic adventure in full plate and no cleric (with either water breathing/walking) Everything else was "meh". :smallannoyed:

[Screech]

That was so incredably funny i laughed the whole time go RedCloak you are with out a doubt the greatest Goblin of all time haha.

So funny why kill her when u can Laugh at her haha

[SPoD]

I have to say, Redcloak's speech was pretty dull. I still see Miko as having moral confidence and superiority over him. Is it even that insulting to call someone "unnatural"? I mean, where is Redcloak going with this?

The insult was that she was a hypocrite; she hurled the term "unnatural abomination" at Xykon in Panel 1. Redcloak probably doesn't give a crap about whether someone is "natural" or not--but Miko clearly does, or she wouldn't have called Xykon that. So he was turning it around on her, trying to show that she is just as bad as Xykon in that way.

I think it makes total sense for Redcloak, who seems to pride himself on being a "good" villain who looks out for other goblins (not hobgoblins, the original green kind). If someone delivered this kind of speech to him, pointing out his hypocrisy, he would probably burst into tears. Unfortunately, Miko really DOESN'T worry about being wrong that much, so it had no effect.

Ultimately, I think the whole strip existed to give Xykon a reason to not just execute Miko on the spot, since she clearly has a role to play in the story. As much as I respect Rich as a writer, I imagine he sort of painted himself into a corner with this one. I know he has the broad strokes planned out, but he's basically writing the details day-by-day without benefit of even a rough draft. Sometimes, I think he has to sacrifice The Funny one day to keep the plot going.

As attempts to get one's plot out of a bad situation go, I've seen worse. :wink:

[Finwe]

Right. And his quote is the kind of immunity to fear that Miko has as a paladin. Not immunity to fear for the safety of others.


But is Miko's immunity to fear as a paladin just a lack of reguard for her own safety? Even knowing that there's an army about to seige azure city, her first instinct is to kill the evil that she see's before her, instead of attempting to find a way to escape and/or warn the city. Sure, the hordes MIGHT disperse if Readcloak were to die (I don't think its very likely though. The hobgoblins know that they're seiging a city, and goblinoids like sieges) but she doesn' t know that. Fear for the safety of the city, if she does have it, isn't ranking exceptionally high on her list of emotions right now.

[TinSoldier]

But is Miko's immunity to fear as a paladin just a lack of reguard for her own safety? Even knowing that there's an army about to seige azure city, her first instinct is to kill the evil that she see's before her, instead of attempting to find a way to escape and/or warn the city. Sure, the hordes MIGHT disperse if Readcloak were to die (I don't think its very likely though. The hobgoblins know that they're seiging a city, and goblinoids like sieges) but she doesn' t know that. Fear for the safety of the city, if she does have it, isn't ranking exceptionally high on her list of emotions right now.I don't know, Finwe. Things happened pretty fast. I think she certainly wanted to warn the city as well as kill the evil beings that were threatening her and the guard tower. I saw nothing in the last few comics that said she was faced with a choice between killing Xykon and Redcloak vs. fleeing and warning Azure City.

[Hyrael]

Does Redcloak do this? I know he sacrifices hobgoblins regularly, but I can't remember him turning anything into a zombie.

Also, I'm still wondering about that "no fear" thing. If it's an actual magical procedure, sort of the D&D equivalent of taking drugs that negate the chemicals in the brain that cause the "flight" response, then, yeah, abomination. Or at least unnatural. But if it's just something like faith in one's god(s) or cause, well, those things seem quite natural, and still capable of producing similar effect.

Either way, its dangerous. that is one of the many the reasons why I dont like religious justifications, religious zeal, or religion in general. Fear is what causes us to doubt ourselves, forcing us to double-check or reasoning, and make sure we are right. Its natural, and I mean that in a biological way, not a romantic hippie way. It stops us from doing things like, oh, I dont know, strapping C4 to our torsos. Who cares what the source is, if the net effect is the same? how is one means better than the other if they have the same end? (a play on the "ends justify the means" saying). And ends only justify means if the means caused less damage than the end, and there wasnt any other option, and even then you have to answer for what you did. and just because ends dont usualy justify means doesnt mean that means justify the end.

Injecting alcohol into a mouse disables it's fear reflex, so it winds up running off the edge of a table. palladins dont do this, because they at least have some intelligence; they substitute their fear reaction with intelect (which is seldom exceptional). But that lack of fear is still there, and it stops them from double checking and doubting.

It is only through doubt and fear, not faith, that we arive at truth and make wise descisions

[Winged One]

Redcloak is now making me regret that my only goblin character was raised by good-aligned demihumans...

[TinSoldier]

I don't know, Finwe. Things happened pretty fast. I think she certainly wanted to warn the city as well as kill the evil beings that were threatening her and the guard tower. I saw nothing in the last few comics that said she was faced with a choice between killing Xykon and Redcloak vs. fleeing and warning Azure City.Specifically see #369 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) panel 8.

:miko: "If the Crimson Mantle is this close to Azure City, then the gate is in danger... I must warn--"

:redcloak: casts Destruction.

[zimri]

E
Injecting alcohol into a mouse disables it's fear reflex, so it winds up running off the edge of a table. palladins dont do this, because they at least have some intelligence;

You do realize that because of that statement every paladin I play from here on out will at some point run off the edge of a table.

[Hyrael]

You do realize that because of that statement every paladin I play from here on out will at some point run off the edge of a table.

No, the mouse does that because it has an IQ of approximately three. Paladins dont do that because they can think. (albeit not very well. most pallies have to dump dex and int heavily. being a palladin requires alot of high ability scores, like a monk.) they have to intellectyaly say to themselves "that cliff is very high, if I go near there I might fall. if I fall i will die. If I die, the forces of evil will be unopposed. therefore, i will not go near that cliff."

[Trobby]

No, not as such. Paladins are immune to the mechanical effects of terror (effectively, they don't piss their pants and run away), but that doesn't mean that they are completely lacking an entire facet of emotion.

Technically, the Paladin Class Skill Aura of Courage means they are completely immune to fear.

It's an interesting interpritation of what that means...but completely valid.

^.^ I enjoyed this strip...it's pretty good...especially as far as character development is concerned.

[Fat Daddy]

Go Redcloak!! I really liked him calling Miko an unnatural abomination. My favorite line this strip however, goes to Xykon, "Amen brother, preach it." That made me shoot coke onto the computer screen (good thing its a work computer and not mine!). Just something about a lich saying that makes me laugh.

[it17]

Miko will live on to torment azure city and the PCs. This is much better than killing her so yes Xykon made the right decision

[zapperchamp]

Yeah, chances of her going blackguard have diminished but still a possibility. This comic has me wondering where Miko will go. She keeps praying to the 12 gods, perhaps one of them will be evil and help her? Not likely but still hoping...

[Bakta]

I found it funny that Redcloak used Miko as a mean to get back at Xykon. Putting them at the same level might imply Xykon is as popular as a lich than Miko is amongst paladin.

Edit : Just noticed Miko's parting speech mirros Xykon starting one...Wouldn't a pallie be ashamed to quote a lich almost word for word :)

[Tawkis]

Once again Recloak proves that he is in fact...

The Man, move over Roy.

[Haarculaneaum]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Thank you, Giant, for pointing out clearly why :miko: is teh suxxors.

[Faintest_Inkling]

Fear is an attack-form in D&D, not an emotion. There is absolutely nothing in the PHB text describing Aura of Courage that rightfully should lead anyone to believe anything else. The reason why "Aura of Courage" states "a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise)" is to make it clear that the paladin is immune to fear effects that are the products of Extraordinary abilities (Ex) and not just fear resulting from spells or supernatural abilities (Su). For example, a dragon's Frightful Presence is (Ex).

You can give "the Giant" the benefit of the doubt here, since it was the villains giving the speech---he might not actually believe that Aura of Courage removes an "emotion" himself. It is common-sense, really; any player can make his PC "immune to fear" in the emotional sense by just having his character not be afraid of anything unless a game rule (a fear effect, magical or otherwise) says that he has to be shaken, frightened, or panicked. I've seen plenty of "fearless" Chaotic Neutral arcane spellcasters who were so courageous because their players didn't care too much about those characters and thought it was amusing to sacrifice them---frequently to the detriment of the party. Surely, anyone who has played D&D recognizes that there is a difference between being able to role-play your characters emotions (which includes "emotional fear") and the paladin's immunity to fear-based effects, which is as equally natural or unnatural as any other class-ability they have, such as Divine Health (immunity to disease).


Nevertheless, I suspect that this is just more paladin-bashing. Apparently, it's "giving the people what they want," since so many seem to enjoy it. I suppose there are a minority of us, however, who find it annoying, tiring, and un-funny. If Miko were a PC, she could be a satire of a how some players (who hate paladins or who play paladins) seem to think that a paladin is basically a member of Al Qaida. However, as Miko is an NPC, I suppose the satire is of the DM misunderstanding the rules, but that's awfully "meta."

The bottom-line is, Miko's treatment of the OoTS may be off-base, and she is not very likable in a lot of ways, but paladins do not exist in our real world. In the D&D world, in which creatures like Xykon are walking around, it is a good thing to be immune to fear effects and it is a good thing that there is a class of people dedicated to destroying evil and who have divine abilities which are well-suited to it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Technically, the Paladin Class Skill Aura of Courage means they are completely immune to fear.

It's an interesting interpritation of what that means...but completely valid.

^.^ I enjoyed this strip...it's pretty good...especially as far as character development is concerned.
And being immune to fear means that the fear is there to be immune to. The ability doesn't say that the paladin knows no fear; it says he is immune to it.

[Solara]

i'd have to say miko still seems rational. her blackguard stock has gone down in my book. i think the blackgaurd folk may have jumped the gun a bit.


Well, I never thought she was going to turn into a Blackguard right then and there. But of course... ...now she's so eager to run off and attack the OotS, which has a good chance of making her fall while at the same time being around a certain evil twin and his outsider girlfriend...so yeah, I'd say there's still a pretty good chance of this storyline going that way.

Edit: @ Faintest_Inkling: So have your gods made you immune to funny, or what?

[Zeb The Troll]

Also, I'm still wondering about that "no fear" thing. If it's an actual magical procedure, sort of the D&D equivalent of taking drugs that negate the chemicals in the brain that cause the "flight" response, then, yeah, abomination. Or at least unnatural. But if it's just something like faith in one's god(s) or cause, well, those things seem quite natural, and still capable of producing similar effect.
As someone else pointed out, it's not an absence of fear. It's an immunity to the effects of fear. Still thought the speech was hilarious though. :smallsmile:

My favorite line was :redcloak: "with the extra added bonus of being a myopic hypocrite."

[Faintest_Inkling]

Solara:
"Edit: @ Faintest_Inkling: So have your gods made you immune to funny, or what?"



No, I only have +4 save vs. funny.

[Haarculaneaum]

I find it odd that people assume that Ptschichawn (IT'S FNORDIN SPELLED X-Y-K-O-N!) won't kill Miko now. He tried to kill her in the third or so panel. He will probably still kill her. If he doesn't it is because he convinces her to go after the OOTS or something similar.

The fear point is brilliant, btw -- and Redcloak is too.

Haar

[Blackeagle]

"As indignant speeches go I've heard better"

Is she thinking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html) Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), perhaps?

[Quixoto]

Hmm... anyone else see the irony in this strip in relation to the current political climate in America?
I dunno, doesn't it seem like this rant against Miko, the dems taking the house, and Rumsfeld resigning all have a common theme to it? It's like it's "comeupance day."
Anybody else get this feeling?

[Haarculaneaum]

And poopsmith on KOT, this is a 8/10+ Comic.

100% All-Natural Goblin
+
99 3/4& Evil
=
:redcloak:

Sewiously, you guys, Rich does a fine, fine job of showing us exactly what is wrong with the way the Paladin class may be played and what's wrong with extremism. I think we have the makings of a fine and timely political observation by our dear Giant. Jolly Good Show.

Haar

Edit: Don Quixoto, how did you ninja me??

[Hallavast]

The insult was that she was a hypocrite; she hurled the term "unnatural abomination" at Xykon in Panel 1. Redcloak probably doesn't give a crap about whether someone is "natural" or not--but Miko clearly does, or she wouldn't have called Xykon that. So he was turning it around on her, trying to show that she is just as bad as Xykon in that way.

I think it makes total sense for Redcloak, who seems to pride himself on being a "good" villain who looks out for other goblins (not hobgoblins, the original green kind). If someone delivered this kind of speech to him, pointing out his hypocrisy, he would probably burst into tears. Unfortunately, Miko really DOESN'T worry about being wrong that much, so it had no effect.

Ultimately, I think the whole strip existed to give Xykon a reason to not just execute Miko on the spot, since she clearly has a role to play in the story. As much as I respect Rich as a writer, I imagine he sort of painted himself into a corner with this one. I know he has the broad strokes planned out, but he's basically writing the details day-by-day without benefit of even a rough draft. Sometimes, I think he has to sacrifice The Funny one day to keep the plot going.

As attempts to get one's plot out of a bad situation go, I've seen worse. :wink:

Yeah, I suppose, but insulting a paladin is like insulting a rock. You really can't expect to get anywhere doing it...I still say he should just kill her.

[Zeb The Troll]

Hmm... anyone else see the irony in this strip in relation to the current political climate in America?
I dunno, doesn't it seem like this rant against Miko, the dems taking the house, and Rumsfeld resigning all have a common theme to it? It's like it's "comeupance day."
Anybody else get this feeling?
Given the staff's strong opposition to the discussion of politics in this forum, no, not at all.

[Aerysil]

Add to Giant's many literary resources, the capacity for one to create an argument for how wrong (or right) it is for anything to exist as it is.

The only difference is, Redcloak failed to draw the general public in to the debate, as many forum trolls do.

Oh wait...

[theKOT]

Hmm... anyone else see the irony in this strip in relation to the current political climate in America?
I dunno, doesn't it seem like this rant against Miko, the dems taking the house, and Rumsfeld resigning all have a common theme to it? It's like it's "comeupance day."
Anybody else get this feeling?
Miko has already gotten "comeupance" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html). Twice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). However, I would kindly suggest you take a look at this section of the Rules of Posting:


Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are always off-limits on these forums, no matter what (hence, Inappropriate Topics). Any posts including these topics will be edited, and any threads started to discuss these topics will be locked.
Real-world religions (including religious reactions to Gaming)
Real-world politics
Graphic violence
Illegal drugs
Criminal activity
Explicit sexualityBolding is mine.

Edit:

And poopsmith on KOT, this is a 8/10+ Comic.

100% All-Natural Goblin
+
99 3/4& Evil
=
:redcloak:

Sewiously, you guys, Rich does a fine, fine job of showing us exactly what is wrong with the way the Paladin class may be played and what's wrong with extremism. I think we have the makings of a fine and timely political observation by our dear Giant. Jolly Good Show.All well and good, but that's your opinion. Honestly, it took the G forever to get where he was going, and I didn't find it quite so profound as you did. I didn't laugh, I didn't feel sad, and it didn't make me think much. I was disengaged, uninterested, and bored. That is why I rated it as I did.

[Haarculaneaum]

I fail to see how suggesting that a strip is timely is discussing real-world politics.
Point taken, however.

Haar

[Renegade Paladin]

Given the staff's silly opposition to the discussion of politics in this forum, no, not at all.
Fixed, but other than that, true.

[Whamme]

Heh. Awesome.

People say this was not funny and then launch into how Redcloak was factually incorrect...

It is funny /because/ it is wrong. Nobody thinks a Paladin is supposed to be like that - but Miko clearly IS, and it all makes a kind of sense.

And both Miko and Xykon just have dry wit interjections. Well done, methinks.

[theKOT]

I fail to see how suggesting that a strip is timely is discussing real-world politics.
Point taken, however. I for one will refrain from mentioning anything relevant to IRL again, as my points thus far have been generally decryed.
Haar
Actually, I wasn't really talking to you. I was talking to the more specific Q, who went more in-depth. I wasn't "decrying" anything, just pointing out a rule. Martyr complex grumble grumble....

Fixed, but other than that, true.
I dunno. Politics lead to flame wars, flame wars lead to bannings, bannings lead to smoothies, smoothies lead to delicousness, delicousness leads to happiness.... shoot, where was I going with this? Nevermind....

[xyzchyx]

Nice speech...

But paladins don't not feel fear, they are merely blessed with immunity to its adverse effects.

Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the will to do what one knows is right in spite of being afraid.

[Zeb The Troll]

I fail to see how suggesting that a strip is timely is discussing real-world politics.
Point taken, however. I for one will refrain from mentioning anything relevant to IRL again, as my points thus far have been generally decryed.
Haar
I don't think anyone is saying that anyone else has crossed the line. I certainly wasn't. Nothing controversial was said, simply statement of simple (not debatable) fact. I think people are just posting some reminders before the mention becomes a discussion.

[skinkatlarge]

Whether or not you feel that paladins can feel fear, Miko herself said "The blessing of the twelve gods has removed all traces of fear, mystical or otherwise, from their paladins." This might even be simply bravado (though I think the Giant might be telling us that that's the way the DM plays it in this world, at least) - but Redcloak is certainly justified in taking her word for it. And I thought the whole bit was pretty thought-provoking. A bit of a stretch for RC to extrapolate all that so quickly after Miko's "fearless" comment, but that's just good solid artistic license.

I hope the Giant agrees with me that Redcloak has long since become a major character. He's one of my favorites in the whole comic, and I'm looking forward to learning more about his motivations and why he puts up with Xykon (either in future strips, or in the books that I haven't bought yet).

I'm also hoping that Redcloak's little speech might be one of the seeds that leads to Miko reassessing herself a bit and growing past her annoying exasperating and dangerously close to one-dimensional major character trait. I'd bet my left nut she won't become a blackguard. Also digging her new-found ability to deliver jokes/comebacks.

I've got enormous faith in the Giant; this comic is my favorite piece of entertainment on the whole internet. Oh yeah - I read the note about why he's doing the accelerated strips, and I think that's damn thoughtful of him. Yeah, I wanna know what happens to Elan & the OotS. And the Linear Guild. And the rookie cop back in Cliffport. Heck, I wanna know what happens to the zombified upper planar chick! Everyone! I'm so hooked.

[Piedmon_Sama]

*Does the shadow-boxing dance from 'Do The Right Thing'*

FIGHT the power! *Bwaka-bwk-bwk* FIGHT the power!

[Itdano]

Miko made a funny. All other topics are pointless.

[baerdith]

Amen Brother! Preach it!

Priceless!!!

[eilandesq]

In the three-way cage match that is OOTS #372, my take on the outcome is:

--Redcloak
--Miko
--Xykon

Redcloak mocks his hated enemy and gets away with comparing his rather mercurial and completely evil boss to a paladin in one fell swoop. Miko shrugs off Xykon's feeble followup and is obviously ready to go once the forcecage spell drops. Xykon is low man on the totem pole here, but he'll shrug it off and head out ready to raze Azure City to the ground. Things are looking rather grim for a certain Lawful Good city right now. . .:eek:

[J.Gellert]

I do hope Xykon isn't about to let her live.

He has already avoided typical cliched villain mistakes. For example he attacked Roy first when he came with the disruption sword instead of flying into an evil monologue, he trapped two doors in a row, he's been killing his enemies fast and without all the trouble that Nale goes into for revenge.

Nale might let Miko live to take revenge in a meaner way but Xykon, meh...
...if he lets her live now, he'll know she'll just be trouble.

PS It was funny, but somewhat anti-climatic. The fight's over, they should stop talking, and someone kill her already *rolls eyes*.

[Zeku]

Someone mentioned bringing up "fight or fight some more" in a psychology class.

I think you should stop and consider that there is always more than two possible choices in any given situation. Fight or flight? Not necessarily, the third possibility is simple: do nothing. The absense of fear does not automatically push a person in a particular behavioural direction, since the intellect still has the potential to guide the person.

(The fourth choice would be acknowledging the presence of, and begin to investigate the "unknown," that which you are currently ignorant of. Sherlock Holmes would be lost.)

Regarding Mika, I feel she is the only character that currently has the potential to exhibit true free will. Her personal confidence level is based upon her own sacrifices and behaviour, and not on some reasoning concerning the world around her. Yes, that type of confidence produces people exactly like Mika, who will walk around the world backwards to justify themselves, but it has the potential to produce someone who can make good choices on the behalf of others, relying on noone but herself. In other words, only a person like Mika can say "I was wrong," and then fix something wrong with the world. Characters like Greenhilt and Redcloak are too busy trying to get along with everybody, too busy fitting into the mold they've chosen, to really make hard choices.

[Aiani]

I gotta say I really like Redcloak. I always thought he was funny but I am liking him even better right now. Also this seemed to provide a way for Xykon to leave Miko alive which I'm sure was kinda the point.

[X-Codes]

PS It was funny, but somewhat anti-climatic. The fight's over, they should stop talking, and someone kill her already *rolls eyes*.
Can't kill Miko yet... she's a main character, and Belkar still has to kill her horse. :smalltongue:

...and yes, leaving her in the Forcecage to stew over whether or not she's similar in so many ways to Xykon is so much more evil than just killing her now. Besides, she made her save against Redcloak's Implosion spell (most likely thanks to Divine Grace), Xykon probably won't be able to do much better without using a bunch of spells.

[Nerd_Paladin]

Sorry, but both Xykon and Redcloak are full of Owlbear pellets. If I didn't have so much evidence that Mr. Burlew was a superior writer, I'd accuse him of appeasement and blatant pandering to Miko haters.

[xyzchyx]

Whether or not you feel that paladins can feel fear, Miko herself said "The blessing of the twelve gods has removed all traces of fear, mystical or otherwise, from their paladins."She may very well believe this to be true, but it would be easily be attributable to Miko's vanity. The paladin ability that renders them immune to suffering from fear is called Aura of Courage, and courage does not in any way proclaim itself to be the absence of fear. In fact, the complete absence of fear in a truly dangerous situation more closely resembles ignorance than actual bravery (I'll not bother addressing the possible argument that Miko's remark came from ignorance of the situation rather than courage, as other actions she has done in the past have indicated no real lacking of intelligence on her part).

[The Glitter Ninja]

Wallpaper with :xykon: saying "Amen! Preach it, brother!" I see a great need.

[B9anders]

Come on, xykon. Don't go soft on us now. Kill her!

To be honest, I thought Xykon was far too indifferent to other people to even care about whether it is more evil to let her stew on Redcloak's retort for a while instead of killing her.

Just get the distraction out of the way and raise her as an undead, preferably a major and sentient one. It would be way cool to watch the faces of the Roy and his cronies when Miko stands between them and Xykon as an undead foe. With all her righteous wrath agaist the OotS preserved.

[Delgarde]

Love the reactions to Redcloak's remarks...

Miko: you dare compare me to the undead?
Xykon - you dare compare me to a paladin?

hehehe...

[xyzchyx]

It would be way cool to watch the faces of the Roy and his cronies when Miko stands between them and Xykon as an undead foe. With all her righteous wrath agaist the OotS preserved.When a person's body is raised as undead via animate dead or something similar, they are not the same as who they were before... it is just the body, animated by extraplanar energy (usually from the negative energy material plane, but there may be exceptions), it is not still the actual person. Intelligent undead are created by other means, not by a mere spell being cast on the body by someone else.

[B9anders]

When a person's body is raised as undead via animate dead or something similar, they are not the same as who they were before... it is just the body, animated by extraplanar energy (usually from the negative energy material plane, but there may be exceptions), it is not still the actual person. Intelligent undead are created by other means, not by a mere spell being cast on the body by someone else.

Create Greater Undead, 8th lvl spell, I'm sure a lich would know it. One hour's work and he has a kick-ass undead minion at his side.

[Hototo]

sweetness, Miko may get to live after all... and she isn't going to become evil. Hopefully she doesn't just go crazy and inadvertantly help the bad guys buy messing with the OOTS. Oh, sad, misled little Paladin.

[Freelance Henchman]

Does it seem to anyone else that the word "natural" is a little ill-defined in a world where you can't take two steps without stumbling over gods, demons or magic?

Plus, Redcloak's whole little speech about it being unnatural to "have no fear" (whatever that really means) and hypocrisy etc. really ticked me off. Amassing armies of the undead, attacking peaceful cities and trying to DESTROY THE VERY FABRIC OF REALITY are IMHO a little worse than having an irritating personality.

This comic was as if the Giant himself joined the ludicrous Miko Haters Brigade.

[Lord Zentei]

I find it pretty hilarious how all the Miko haters:

1) Crow about Redcloak's indignant speech about how "Miko is teh suxxors", since of course, someone who is the grand priest of a religious cult apparently devoted to destroying the gates that keeps creation safe has the moral high ground in passing out judgements of the kind Redcloak just did.

2) A couple of days ago were wanting to see her "fall" to evil and now want to see her killed by an evil villain, yet keep insisting that she is too judgemental.

3) Are still spouting inane one liners.

L.O.L.


On another note, Redcloak's line "all natural goblin" was pretty good. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Zentei]

This comic was as if the Giant himself joined the ludicrous Miko Haters Brigade.

Not neccesarily: its Redcloak - a villain - who is making that speech.

Keep in mind that the Giant insisted that Belkar was Evil, and that people should "deal with it". In other words: stuff Belkar says or does is not neccesarily right or justifiable (in fact it specifically is NOT). By that logic, we should extend the same consideration to Redcloak and Xykon. It's just that their sense of humour tends to let them get away with stuff in the eyes of the readers a lot (same as Belkar, really).

[fractal]

Going by her statement in the last panel, and her general lack of introspection at any time, it would seem that Miko is not about to fall... because that would imply change, and Miko is certainly not about to change. It's kind of disappointing to see that her inflexibility is so, well, inflexible.

[Freelance Henchman]

It's just that their sense of humour tends to let them get away with stuff in the eyes of the readers a lot (same as Belkar, really).

That's pretty depressing really. Do whatever evil deeds you want, if you've got some nice one-liners to follow up on them people will like you anyway.

[fractal]

That's pretty depressing really. Do whatever evil deeds you want, if you've got some nice one-liners to follow up on them people will like you anyway.
What do you think Charisma is for? Anyway, we're not people who meet them, we're readers who simply observe and want to be entertained. We're liking them as characters, not liking them as people. Frankly, everyone in the comic (other than Elan, Durkon, and possibly Roy or Haley) are probably terrifying to meet in person. They're just too powerful and too violent.

[lord_khaine]

Hey i can still like belkar, even if i think he deserves a good dosis smite evil for his deeds.
i like him becasue he is funny, and i think he deserves punisment because he is evil.

And on the case of using create greater undead on Miko, yes you could make a very powerfull undead creature out of her, whose first action would be to stab you in the eyes...

[Freelance Henchman]

What do you think Charisma is for? Anyway, we're not people who meet them, we're readers who simply observe and want to be entertained. We're liking them as characters, not liking them as people. Frankly, everyone in the comic (other than Elan, Durkon, and possibly Roy or Haley) are probably terrifying to meet in person. They're just too powerful and too violent.

I don't have a problem with liking "evil but charming" fictional characters (Hannibal Lecter for example is an absolutely amazing case of this). That still makes me wonder why people like Belkar so much, whose CHA stat I would value at around 5 or 6, while Miko as a Paladin *has* to have CHA > 15 (?).

[Heloisa]

Ugh, I wanted to like Miko. I really did. But this whole thing with Xykon has made her out to be such a visceral, single-minded, self-righteous morale crusader, far more than any encounter with the Order of the Stick has ever done.


I agree 100% with you!

And now I think Redcloak is great too!
Hooray! \o/

[Zeb The Troll]

1) Crow about Redcloak's indignant speech about how "Miko is teh suxxors", since of course, someone who is the grand priest of a religious cult apparently devoted to destroying the gates that keeps creation safe has the moral high ground in passing out judgements of the kind Redcloak just did.
Actually, he's "passing judgement" on her her hypocrisy, not her morality. His point is that he and Xykon know what they are don't try to pretend they're not.


...while Miko as a Paladin *has* to have CHA > 15 (?).
Why? There's absolutely no charisma requirement for the class. We know only that hers is at least 12 only because she can Lay on Hands. Other than that we've got no idea what it is.

[battleburn]

Miko is a terrible cliche of a paladin. I believe the Giant said himself somewhere that he made Miko to show the difference between the cliche and the standard paladin. She is always send away by Shojo, because the other paladins don't like her. Rich didn't side with the Miko haters here, but showed once more, via Redcloak, that Miko really is just a cliche.

Well perhaps not just a cliche, because he has also given her major issues.
The cliche became alive!

[Freelance Henchman]

Why? There's absolutely no charisma requirement for the class. We know only that hers is at least 12 only because she can Lay on Hands. Other than that we've got no idea what it is.

Apparently PnP D&D (which I haven't played) is quite different from the computer games (which I have played). In the games Paladins had to have a really high CHA from the start.

For the hipocrisy part: Yes, Redcloak can criticize Miko for being (in his opinion) "hypocritical". Yet, one has to consider the source, i.e. this is a thoroughly evil villain('s henchman) who is about to bring total destruction on many innocents, who has the gall to be indignant about a defender of said innocent's "uncoolness" or whatever. It's just a ridiculous situation (and yes I know its a comic, and I thought the strip was funny).

[dcviana]

Wow, just... wow.

:redcloak: is my new favorite OotS NPC.

I gotta remember this speech the next time I interact with a player roleplaying a palading like Miko.

[Blaznak]

Hee hee heee.... Great analysis of Paladins! I just love Redcloak.

I wonder, Rich, what is the EASIEST character for you to write? I mean some of these guys it feels a bit like you have to struggle to find their voice, but others just seem to flow more naturally.

Just curious!

Later...

[Haarculaneaum]

So um,
To those folkies who say things like it's horrible that some readers of the strip think the baddies can "Do whatever evil deeds [they] want" as long as they're clever --

Did you watch Silence of the Lambs? Any of the Godfather movies? Heck, even Strong Bad started out as a villain. People react to personality (which Miko has little but Redcloak in spades), NOT alignment (unless, of course, they're paladins. . .), which allows for the "chaotic evil wizard who just wants to nurse his bottle of Dead Orc" scenario. It's also why people get duped into following members of Ze Cult of Personality, often irrespective of those leaders' intentions.

Haar

[Kanashimi]

wow. . just wow. . . That was the most beautiful dialogue about the weakness of paladins I've ever seen. I can feel Miko's heart being crushed by the profundity of Redcloak's words. I can't wait to see what comes next.

Oh, and favorite lines:

You dare compare me to the undead?

You dare compare me to a paladin?

Priceless

[Shatteredtower]

Amassing armies of the undead, attacking peaceful cities and trying to DESTROY THE VERY FABRIC OF REALITY are IMHO a little worse than having an irritating personality.

Well, yes, but it does make for better reading. And to be fair to both Redcloak and Xyl-- Zolo-- er, let's just call him Fred -- there's been no indication that either of them has the goal of destroying the very fabric of reality. Redcloak does not seem to be the suicidal type, nor does X--Fred seem the kind of villain with universal destruction on his list of hobbies.

Oh, and a paladin's immunity to fear only goes so far, at least by the rules (which we all know are ignored as the Giant sees fit). It's a supernatural ability. That means it won't function in an antimagic field. This usually means little, but a combination the antimagic with a charging dragon and a successful Intimidate check could still send her fleeing for her life.

One could even argue that Miko may behave as she does because she's afraid of not being in control of things. It's just that she doesn't get shaken up about it or worse. ;)

[Morty]

Holy crap... that message board is splitting into two factions of dangerous fanatics.
As for comic: that was nice, but it seems that some people(read: Miko-haters and, especially, Miko-lovers) can't take it as "just comic" and have to wage war again each others.
Redcloak speech was interesting view on what can be wrong with paladins.

[Mr_Shrubber]

Yep, it's official: :redcloak: pWns! On this evidence, he could probably even beat Leaky in a duel of words (never mind a battle of wits).

What I don't understand is why :xykon: stopped in the middle of casting his Finger of Death/Slay Living/whatever. Has he seen too many Bond movies?

:miko: : "Do you expect me to talk beg for mercy?"
:xykon: : "No, paladin - I expect you to DIE!" :smallbiggrin:

[Movoza]

whahaha, this is now one of the better commics :D
the pot and the kettle, damn right.

go giant! was worth waiting (though i didn't wait cos i also had my own stuff to do)

[Zeb The Troll]

Apparently PnP D&D (which I haven't played) is quite different from the computer games (which I have played). In the games Paladins had to have a really high CHA from the start.

It depends on how old the games are you played. In 2nd Edition AD&D (pretty much the games before Baldur's Gate, if I remember right) there was a requirement of (I think) a 17 Cha to become a paladin. 3E/3.5 (NWN) got rid of the requirement but still base a lot of the class features on the CHA stat (e.g. Lay on Hands, Smite Evil, and Divine Grace are all calculated on the CHA bonus) so a min/max'er would still have it high. Miko however, because she started out as a monk, may have put more stock in Wis and Dex than Cha at character creation.

Again I stipulate, however, that there is very little hard evidence to really narrow down any of her stats save that she must have at least a 12 Cha in order to even benefit from a LoH and she has to have at least a 15 Dex to have Two Weapon Fighting (which she may not even have, but I think it very likely she has at least that and probable that she has Improved 2WF and thus a 17 Dex, but that's purely conjecture on my part).

[Lord Zentei]

Actually, he's "passing judgement" on her her hypocrisy, not her morality. His point is that he and Xykon know what they are don't try to pretend they're not.

The alleged hypocricy was that she called Xykon "unnatural" while she is immune to fear. That was a bit of a stretch. And more than that, he accused her of not considering the possibility that she might be doing the wrong thing. That part was highly ironic, quite frankly.


So um,
To those folkies who say things like it's horrible that some readers of the strip think the baddies can "Do whatever evil deeds [they] want" as long as they're clever --

Did you watch Silence of the Lambs? Any of the Godfather movies? Heck, even Strong Bad started out as a villain. People react to personality (which Miko has little but Redcloak in spades), NOT alignment (unless, of course, they're paladins. . .), which allows for the "chaotic evil wizard who just wants to nurse his bottle of Dead Orc" scenario. It's also why people get duped into following members of Ze Cult of Personality, often irrespective of those leaders' intentions.

And that is not a bad thing?

[Strange Daze]

Okay, I'm a tad confused, probably because it's been an age since I delved that deeply into D&D. (That and it's morning as I type this, I'm just not a morning person.) If the rest of this comes off as the ramblings of a confused or just ignorant mind, then forgive me. Eventually. You can take your time, I don't mind.

Is there any difference between paladin and samurai? I recall Miko referring to herself as samurai back in 251 or so, and from what I remember Roy saying it sounds like there's a bit of a difference between samurai and paladins. So which is she, paladin or samurai? And how does it change things if people are using the wrong standard to judge her here?

[Hyrael]

Going by her statement in the last panel, and her general lack of introspection at any time, it would seem that Miko is not about to fall... because that would imply change, and Miko is certainly not about to change. It's kind of disappointing to see that her inflexibility is so, well, inflexible.
________________________spoiler___________________ _______






Im holding out hope that in the next strip or two Miko is going to get a nice sililoquie. I can see her sitting cross-legged in her cage, doing some soul-searching and introspection, and maybe crying just a little. Not over redcloaks comment, but because redcloak forced her to look inside for just a second, to make sure he was wrong. She'll still hate the order, and she might not change right away, but maybe, down the road, as a result of that little bit of intro-spection.

I dont like miko that much, but I can imagine what her life has been like to cause her to turn out that way, And I would like to see her develope into someone more sane, while still remaining herself.

[Lord Zentei]

Holy crap... that message board is splitting into two factions of dangerous fanatics.
As for comic: that was nice, but it seems that some people(read: Miko-haters and, especially, Miko-lovers) can't take it as "just comic" and have to wage war again each others.

Nonsense. I really cannot see a "war" going on here... if you think this is a war, you need to get out on the internet more. :smallwink:

And you'll observe that the "Miko-lovers" are mostly responding to posts of "Miko-haters". So what's up with the "especially" bit?

As for myself, I'm more "anti-nonsense" than pro this character or anti that character. If people were posting inane "lolz <such and such> is teh suxxors" messages, I would doubtless challenge those also.

[Lord Zentei]

Is there any difference between paladin and samurai? I recall Miko referring to herself as samurai back in 251 or so, and from what I remember Roy saying it sounds like there's a bit of a difference between samurai and paladins. So which is she, paladin or samurai? And how does it change things if people are using the wrong standard to judge her here?

No need for all the preemtive apologies.

"Samurai" in the Stickverse is a social class. It's a character background thing, not a player class & level thing.

"Paladin" is a player class. Miko is of the Samurai social class and the Paladin/Monk character class.


It's the same kind of confusion as all the "character level", "dungeon level", "spell level", etc nonsense that Rich made fun of a while back. :smallwink:

[Morty]

Nonsense. I really cannot see a "war" going on here... if you think this is a war, you need to get out on the internet more. :smallwink:

And you'll observe that the "Miko-lovers" are mostly responding to posts of "Miko-haters". So what's up with the "especially" bit?

As for myself, I'm more "anti-nonsense" than pro this character or anti that character. If people were posting inane "lolz <such and such> is teh suxxors" messages, I would doubtless challenge those also.

That's not war, but it's surely more hostility that you'd expect if the topic is one character in one webcomic. Sorry if that's unclear, english isn't my first language.
As for 'especially': from what I've noticed, Miko-haters posts are rather just "I don't like Miko", while Miko-lovers tend to take it too seriously and defend her at all costs while there's nothing to defend.

[Haarculaneaum]

Lord Zen --
I'm not passing judgement.
I am stating a tendency of human nature as an example of why we like Xykon (that's x-y-k-o-n, folks) and Redcloak and Belkar more than we like Miko.
Personality trumps Alignment any day.
(Which is why CHA should never be a dump stat)

Haar

[Sliverghost]

Does Redcloak do this? I know he sacrifices hobgoblins regularly, but I can't remember him turning anything into a zombie.


ya on this comic http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html first pannel "Animate dead"

[Moechi_Vill]

Nonsense. I really cannot see a "war" going on here... if you think this is a war, you need to get out on the internet more. :smallwink:

And you'll observe that the "Miko-lovers" are mostly responding to posts of "Miko-haters". So what's up with the "especially" bit?

As for myself, I'm more "anti-nonsense" than pro this character or anti that character. If people were posting inane "lolz <such and such> is teh suxxors" messages, I would doubtless challenge those also.

Now now Lord Zentai, you're talking about ME here aren't you? ;D
Most Miko-lovers are just plain intelligent and open-minded. As for me I am actually generally very open-minded, I just love to present things in black & white for fun and profit. I'm hardwired that way (let's not get into it, it's neurological).
*read Mort's post*, I don't know when you guys joined the board but I been here for a year and a half and in the past before this time (even the little fight I started) anyone who liked Miko had to wade through "I hate Miko" once every page when she was involved. It used to be quite different. Hmm... maybe I should be a little more different if my plots are going to change people's mind on a fangroup... or NOT!

Cyber-ninja pirates for the win! ;^_=

[chibibar]

wow.. that is some serious stick up Miko's butt...

[Lord Zentei]

That's not war, but it's surely more hostility that you'd expect if the topic is one character in one webcomic. Sorry if that's unclear, english isn't my first language.

It's not my first language either. So pfft. :smalltongue:


As for 'especially': from what I've noticed, Miko-haters posts are rather just "I don't like Miko", while Miko-lovers tend to take it too seriously and defend her at all costs while there's nothing to defend.

Nah, not really. :smallbiggrin: It's more that I find inane "lol, suxxors" posts a mite annoying, so I challenge them. As for Miko supporters in general being serious more often - well, perhaps that's because Miko gets attacked more often. Think back to the "Belkar isn't evil, just misunderstood" debates awhile ago. And how would Elan lovers react to constant "lol Elan is teh suxxorz cuz he is teh stoopid" posts? I think they would rise to the challenge. Don't you?


Lord Zen --
I'm not passing judgement.
I am stating a tendency of human nature as an example of why we like Xykon (that's x-y-k-o-n, folks) and Redcloak and Belkar more than we like Miko.
Personality trumps Alignment any day.
(Which is why CHA should never be a dump stat)

Quite so. However, I'm pointing out that this is not a good thing. Anyway I wasn't attacking you, personally - or at least didn't mean to.

[motub]

Man, oh man, wasn't Redcloak great in this strip??? I've always liked him, but now I really love him.... he proved, in just a couple of panels, that

1. He's smarter than his more powerful boss (very nice double-switch to a) get a dig in on him, and then b) convince him that it wasn't really a dig on him; that was really funny, seeing him insult a Lich and then making it OK with the Lich that he did that, without disrupting his main thrust, which was at Miko);

2. Despite being smarter, he still respects and admires Xykon enough to serve him (his speech was intended to manipulate both Xykon and Miko, but it was in service of Xykon's plans, ultimately-- I think he wants to keep Miko alive because he sees a real possibility of turning her, and a fallen paladin would be an asset that you wouldn't just want to throw away, if you had the chance at one), and that "dig" wasn't really disrespectful, it was more a friendly joke/cogent observation by someone who's worked very closely with "The Boss" for a long time (and who can get away with such observations for that reason), proving that he doesn't "hate" or "fear" Xykon, and while he serves him, he is not subservient to him (no groveling worm);

3. Got to do some real cleric stuff. Clerics are not just heal-machines, they are, like paladins, agents of their gods. As such, I bet they know quite a lot about paladins (since paladins are higher-level "special" agents of their gods-- I bet "regular" secret agents know a lot about 007 as well; despite not having his extraordinary abilities, they essentially have the same job). And clerics do have an agenda, though it's rarely seen. I really enjoyed seeing Redcloak be an independent actor, following his own agenda, competently.

It was really great, though not "funny" in the classic sense.

I also think that, practically speaking, Miko has to stay alive, so that in her quest to destroy the OotS, she can kill Nale, which would open up a whole 'nother can of worms if she did so before he was discovered by the OotS, which I don't think he will be (discovered by the OotS, that is). This would open up several vectors for loss of her paladin status or alliance with Xykon and/or Redcloak, which would of course also result in the loss of her paladin status, which I really can't see her keeping forever, since she's just danced too close to the edge for too long. Although.... a cliched paladin might be more fun to write than an anti-paladin in the long run. But maybe not-- it could go either way, given that an anti-paladin who is just cliched as the paladin was might be just as much fun to write, or even more fun. It's not like she'd get "fixed" by becoming a Blackguard, after all. She'd still have the same personal flaws (of which she has several), and it's a complete tossup as to whether those flaws would start working in her favor as a fallen paladin, or if they would remain the obstacles that they are now (and yes, it's an obstacle for a crusader against evil to be so stubborn that when they themselves-- and not the god(s) they serve-- have decided that the good are evil, and so waste time attempting to destroy/oppose the wrong agents, while the real evil continues its nefarious plans).

I think the Gods (whichever ones) may have to make an appearance to make their policies known-- at this point, we're just guessing what they want from their agents, and what precisely would constitute being "dismissed for cause".

[Lord Zentei]

wow.. that is some serious stick up Miko's butt...

Ach so! That stuck-up paladin, passing judgement on Xykon the lich sorcerer and Redcloak, an evil cleric and leader of the cult that is devoted to destroying the gates that defend existance itself! And the way she stood and refused to beg for mercy as Xykon was about to kill her. What a bitch indeed! :smallamused:

[Lord Zentei]

2. Despite being smarter, he still respects and admires Xykon enough to serve him (his speech was intended to manipulate both Xykon and Miko, but it was in service of Xykon's plans, ultimately-- I think he wants to keep Miko alive because he sees a real possibility of turning her, and a fallen paladin would be an asset that you wouldn't just want to throw away, if you had the chance at one), and that "dig" wasn't really disrespectful, it was more a friendly joke/cogent observation by someone who's worked very closely with "The Boss" for a long time (and who can get away with such observations for that reason), proving that he doesn't "hate" or "fear" Xykon, and while he serves him, he is not subservient to him (no groveling worm)

I once again have to wonder which of the two villains is really the more important. Redcloak was never to be underestimated IMHO, but this comic really drove the point home, didn't it?

[Moechi_Vill]

yeaaaapp... we had to face up to this every day in the past. Now thanks to uncle John dear fellow Miho-lovers, the forums will just hate US instead. wohoo! :)

But yes, it's true Miko-lovers do get rather bent on protecting Miko's would-be feelings, since we don't feel she should be hated. I just... hate it when people (sanitized for your protection) goes on about love and peace and hating Miko. But I'm not making our group look any better sanitized...

[DougWykstra]

The really funny thing about this conversation, going back to look at it, is that neither Miko nor Redcloak are very good representations of their alignments. Redcloak may point out why Miko is a bit of a hypocrite, but he's a bit hypocritical himself. How can you call yourself evil if you spend time trying to get a 401(k) plan for your fellow goblins? Or offer to heal a young goblin that just survived massive internal injuries? Redcloak plays the part of evil, sure, but his heart doesn't seem to be in it. I think Belkar is probably more evil than Redcloak.

[Runolfr]

...I have this sneaking suspicion that Rich is throwing away a chance to make Miko more complex a character, and is instead getting up on his soapbox about how horrible judgemental people are.

Not so much as you think, perhaps...

I believe this is what storytellers call "setting up a character arc". Her existing traits have to be well established with the audience for any later development of her character to be meaningful. If she's going to become a better paladin, we first have to get the full dose of her being a poor paladin. Rich is showing us how much room she has to improve.

[TinSoldier]

I've been thinking about this since I read the comic last night...

I don't understand why Redcloak thinks that Miko, in particular, is hypocritical. I think he would have made the same speech to any paladin. After all, unlike the OotS, Redcloak and Xykon did not spend several weeks travelling with her.

Not that I think she is hypocritical, because she's not.

[Moechi_Vill]

Holy crap... that message board is splitting into two factions of dangerous fanatics.
As for comic: that was nice, but it seems that some people(read: Miko-haters and, especially, Miko-lovers) can't take it as "just comic" and have to wage war again each others.
Redcloak speech was interesting view on what can be wrong with paladins.

I just don't understand... the whole 'dangerous' thing. I think we take our fun to a deeper level since wage war against each other, it's good stuff. ;)

[Marller]

As for 'especially': from what I've noticed, Miko-haters posts are rather just "I don't like Miko", while Miko-lovers tend to take it too seriously and defend her at all costs while there's nothing to defend.
In your opinion. :wink:
It all depends on the point of view.

Anyway,
Redcloak's speech was just blown out of proportion. Calling someone (let's say fear IS removed) "at least as unnatural as Xykon", would be the same as calling someone with a cardiac pacemaker (otherwise unmodified human), a full body cyborg (someone with only his brain left).
Just because Fear has left the room, doesn't mean that every other emotion followed suit.

On a sidenote: Was Miko's comment at the strips end a hidden compliment to Roy? He also likes to do speeches (and Miko heard two or three of his).

[Haarculaneaum]

From Doug:

"How can you call yourself evil if you spend time trying to get a 401(k) plan for your fellow goblins? Or offer to heal a young goblin that just survived massive internal injuries?"

There are differences between being self-interested & committed to power (Xykon), committed to dark gods, hurting folk, and destruction (Redcloak), and sociopathic (Belkar). Evil is multi-faceted and an evil character may certainly have favorable, even caring ties to his or her relations, friends, or associates.

By your logic, Belkar should have coup de graced Miko because it would have been the short-sightedly-evil thing to do (instead of waking her up so that he could have a chance of making her fall -- something arguably much more evil).

Evil doesn't equal "mean" any more that good equals "nice."

Haar

[Morty]

Nah, not really. It's more that I find inane "lol, suxxors" posts a mite annoying, so I challenge them. As for Miko supporters in general being serious more often - well, perhaps that's because Miko gets attacked more often. Think back to the "Belkar isn't evil, just misunderstood" debates awhile ago. And how would Elan lovers react to constant "lol Elan is teh suxxorz cuz he is teh stoopid" posts? I think they would rise to the challenge. Don't you?
I assume that posts like "Miko/Belkar/Elan suxxx, LOLZ PWN" are natural to message boards and ignore them. They're annoying, but arguing with such "arguments" is wasted effort:wink:. But when I see people arguing abut whether Miko should be paladin or not(she never did anything to make her fall), or if Belkar is hideously evil or not(no comments), I really don't understand them.

I just don't understand... the whole 'dangerous' thing. I think we take our fun to a deeper level since wage war against each other, it's good stuff. ;)
The whole 'dangerous' was a bit ironic, maybe not in good way.

[mikeejimbo]

This makes it official: Redcloak is my favorite villain and my third-favorite character. I sense he has a much deeper motive, and that he wants revenge for all his loved ones who were killed.

[motub]

The really funny thing about this conversation, going back to look at it, is that neither Miko nor Redcloak are very good representations of their alignments. Redcloak may point out why Miko is a bit of a hypocrite, but he's a bit hypocritical himself. How can you call yourself evil if you spend time trying to get a 401(k) plan for your fellow goblins? Or offer to heal a young goblin that just survived massive internal injuries? Redcloak plays the part of evil, sure, but his heart doesn't seem to be in it. I think Belkar is probably more evil than Redcloak.
You know, very few creatures are unremittingly good or evil-- that does not profit the long-term plans of either good or evil (whichever is relevant).

Certainly, unremitting evil is "stupid", in that, unless it is supremely powerful, it will be quickly destroyed by the forces of good, because it's not like the forces of good will not notice/detect/know exactly where it is, because it's very obvious, being unremitting and all. The long-term plans of Evil (or even the short-term plans, if the short term plan takes a long time to implement, as it does in this case), first and foremost requires the agents to continue to exist, which requires some measure of concealment-- and how better to disguise one's evil nature than by doing some minor good? It may make you nauseous, but it's for the cause :smallsmile:.

Plus, you think a 401(k) isn't evil :smallwink:? Maybe not, but deluding the minions into thinking that they have some security against the future, when they really don't (at any moment they might get covered in honey mustard and fed to a... whatever that was...), is. But they do have to be around to get covered in barbecue sauce, and if this minor bit of good keeps them available for that, then it's worth it. Assuming it's not a complete paper dragon-- do the minions even get paid? In what??

[Flak_Razorwill]

Hmm. Her death will be FAR more spectacular. No one that important dies like just another stormtrooper.

Cool save, BTW. Her pigheadedness actually worked out for her for once!

[Silkenfist]

Ach so! That stuck-up paladin, passing judgement on Xykon the lich sorcerer and Redcloak, an evil cleric and leader of the cult that is devoted to destroying the gates that defend existance itself! And the way she stood and refused to beg for mercy as Xykon was about to kill her. What a bitch indeed! :smallamused:

1. (not important) The villains are NOT trying to destroy the gates. They destroyed two gates, but both were destroyed by accident. They want to open them and control their power, which is evil but not nihilistic.

2. (important) Please stop this nonsense. According to every single one of your posts, we are obliged to sympathise with the good characters because of their noble deeds. However, this is not how sympathy works. You don't choose you sympathy. You are not required to feel sympathy for the hero. I'll try to keep it simple:
Sympathy is based on empathy. You find a character likeable because you are able to identify with them and/or understand their feelings. Characters with personal flaws or even villainous characters are likeable because we can see their flaws and compare them with our own struggles. However, you can't compare yourself with a near-flawless superhero like Miko. Miko has no weakness, no doubt and no internal struggle. She is defined by her deeds and her personality is kept in the background. How can you possibly relate to Miko? How can you possibly feel empathy?
Back to the fact that people like the villains better than Miko: I consider Miko to be one of the worst-created big characters (Sorry, Giant) and the villainours trio one of my favorite aspects of Stickworld. However, there is no question that in reality I would choose the company/rule of the Paladins over Xykon. My sympathy and my realistic appreciation are uncorrelated and I bet my head that this is the case for 99% of fiction readers.

3. Another psychological perspective: Humans or primates with a disability to feel or anticipate fear are actually severely disabled because they lose their skills of social interaction. All social rules are learned via fear of disapproval, anybody who loses their fear, will shortly lose their social competences.

[TinSoldier]

2. (important) Please stop this nonsense. According to every single one of your posts, we are obliged to sympathise with the good characters because of their noble deeds. However, this is not how sympathy works. You don't choose you sympathy. You are not required to feel sympathy for the hero. I'll try to keep it simple:
Sympathy is based on empathy. You find a character likeable because you are able to identify with them and/or understand their feelings. Characters with personal flaws or even villainous characters are likeable because we can see their flaws and compare them with our own struggles. However, you can't compare yourself with a near-flawless superhero like Miko. Miko has no weakness, no doubt and no internal struggle. She is defined by her deeds and her personality is kept in the background. How can you possibly relate to Miko? How can you possibly feel empathy?
Back to the fact that people like the villains better than Miko: I consider Miko to be one of the worst-created big characters (Sorry, Giant) and the villainours trio one of my favorite aspects of Stickworld. However, there is no question that in reality I would choose the company/rule of the Paladins over Xykon. My sympathy and my realistic appreciation are uncorrelated and I bet my head that this is the case for 99% of fiction readers.Please don't go on a killing spree, but...

I sympathize and empathize with Miko. I don't think she is near-flawless or a superhero. She does have weakness. I don't know whether she has self-doubt or not because I see no evidence either way, but I would be surprised if she didn't.

I won't psychoanalyze her further by saying maybe the way she treats others is a product of her own self-doubt...

Anyway, I like Miko and the Villainous trio.

[Freelance Henchman]

How can you possibly relate to Miko? How can you possibly feel empathy?

She is a person who tries to uphold order in a world/universe that is, frankly, a madhouse. People can rise from the dead and try to influence the living, there are real, actual gods which take a hand in the lives of ordinary beings (if the peasants want it or not), there are powerful monsters roaming the land, there is strife and war right and left.

With all this going on, there is Miko, who has chosen to be a force of good and battle ogres, liches and goblins (and if need be, psychopathic violent halflings). For what reward? Riches and power? Not really, as far as I can tell, she (to me) seems to feel that upholding order and protecting the weak and innocent is a worthwhile goal in itself.

I find that quite admirable. She could alternatively have used her considerable battle prowess to become a warlord- or bandit-type (like Samantha). Instead she submits to a higher power, her 12 gods and the Sapphire Guard, and helps bring some safety and order into this surreal nightmare of a world.

BTW: What is Xykon going to do once he has power over the Gates? Will he just hang around in his tower watching TV and eating chips for the rest of eternity, because, well, with absolute power there's not much more to achieve really, right? Oh, right, he's a Lich, he doesnt need food, and as far as I know, Liches dont need, ahem, *female* "company" either. What is the end goal? He wants to be the one and only, supreme GOD himself?

[The Hammer of Thor]

I don't care what Miko thinks, that was a great indignant speech.
And it made an interesting point too.....

[Lord Zentei]

1. (not important) The villains are NOT trying to destroy the gates. They destroyed two gates, but both were destroyed by accident. They want to open them and control their power, which is evil but not nihilistic.

Not as far as she is aware.


2. (important) Please stop this nonsense. According to every single one of your posts, we are obliged to sympathise with the good characters because of their noble deeds. However, this is not how sympathy works. You don't choose you sympathy. You are not required to feel sympathy for the hero.

R.O.F.L. You really have no idea what I have been saying at all, do you? Well, well.


I'll try to keep it simple:
Sympathy is based on empathy. You find a character likeable because you are able to identify with them and/or understand their feelings. Characters with personal flaws or even villainous characters are likeable because we can see their flaws and compare them with our own struggles. However, you can't compare yourself with a near-flawless superhero like Miko.

Miko = "flawless"? Are we reading the same webcomic here? Have I fallen into an alternate dimension? <re-reads webcomic> Nope, still the way I remember it.


Miko has no weakness, no doubt and no internal struggle. She is defined by her deeds and her personality is kept in the background. How can you possibly relate to Miko? How can you possibly feel empathy?

She has MASSIVE weaknesses. Her personality is precisely what makes people dislike her. This is nothing more than the cliché "perfect characters are the most imperfect" nonsense.


Back to the fact that people like the villains better than Miko: I consider Miko to be one of the worst-created big characters (Sorry, Giant) and the villainours trio one of my favorite aspects of Stickworld. However, there is no question that in reality I would choose the company/rule of the Paladins over Xykon. My sympathy and my realistic appreciation are uncorrelated and I bet my head that this is the case for 99% of fiction readers.

What exactly has Xykon done to warrant sympathy? The only human quality he has ever displayed is a morbid sense of humour.


3. Another psychological perspective: Humans or primates with a disability to feel or anticipate fear are actually severely disabled because they lose their skills of social interaction. All social rules are learned via fear of disapproval, anybody who loses their fear, will shortly lose their social competences.

Evidence for this claim? And what does this have to do with any of my posts anyhow?

[Haarculaneaum]

Evidence (such as it is) can be found here for a very small start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear

It really depends on who you ask but the argument is certainly there that fear creates personality (and it would explain a lot about Miko except for the fact that her fear got removed AFTER she had 2 levels of Monk).

Haar

[Lord Zentei]

Evidence (such as it is) can be found here for a very small start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear

It really depends on who you ask but the argument is certainly there that fear creates personality (and it would explain a lot about Miko except for the fact that her fear got removed AFTER she had 2 levels of Monk).

Ah, Wikipedia, the most untrustworthy of resources. Anyway:


Some philosophers have considered fear to be a useless emotion; other thinkers note the usefulness of fear as a warning of potentially unpleasant situations or consequences. Still others consider that fear is the fuel that feeds the ego's (as in "separating/judgmental agent") engine. Note that "fear" in the sense of "God Fearing" means "To regard with reverence and awe". Fear can also be understood to be the imagined separation from God.

It doesn't seem that your evidence neccesarily agrees with you. :smallwink:

Also, for relevence to this point see the thread on Paladin Fear that was recently started.

EDIT: How would these ideas allow for Hinjo's personality?

[Haarculaneaum]

umm

"Still others consider that fear is the fuel that feeds the ego's (as in "separating/judgmental agent") engine."

If Miko lacks fear then her ego doesn't work. All Superego and Id (which is what she seems to display).

Haar

And come on, I said START at wikipedia, not end there. It's an excellent encyclopedia and if you find its articles unreliable you are able to alter them.

[Spiky]

Sympathy is based on empathy. You find a character likeable because you are able to identify with them and/or understand their feelings.
I think you need to look those words up. Misusing them distracts from whatever it is that you are trying to say. And I don't know what that is. Like this:


3. Another psychological perspective: Humans or primates with a disability to feel or anticipate fear are actually severely disabled because they lose their skills of social interaction. All social rules are learned via fear of disapproval, anybody who loses their fear, will shortly lose their social competences.
Huh?

[Lord Zentei]

umm

"Still others consider that fear is the fuel that feeds the ego's (as in "separating/judgmental agent") engine."

If Miko lacks fear then her ego doesn't work. All Superego and Id (which is what she seems to display)

I should have said that not all your source agrees with you. And moreover, the fact that this description you have presented - all id and Superego - does not fit Hinjo would presumably undermine your argument as I have pointed out in my previous post, yes?


And come on, I said START at wikipedia, not end there. It's an excellent encyclopedia and if you find its articles unreliable you are able to alter them.

Wikipedia is NOT a good encyclopedia precisely BECAUSE I can alter it if I disagree with it. Anyway, it is not incumbent on me to find evidence to back up my opponent's claims, is it? :smalltongue:

EDIT: the seemingly contradictory nature of the article you linked to is a case in point with regards to the problem of Wikipedia: people will alter and vandalize each other until a sort of ceasefire is reached with mealy mouthed "some people say" and "other people claim", etc.

[Freelance Henchman]

umm
If Miko lacks fear then her ego doesn't work.


I doubt she is completely fear-less, that does not make sense because it would really turn her into somebody with a serious defect. I'm guessing that the anti-fear-aura protects against *succumbing* to fear, i.e. you can not fall into total blind panic but keep your ability to plan. Extreme bravery, i.e. knowing and trying to hit a dragon's weak spot, instead of deciding "Screw this, I'm getting a job in marketing instead".

[Deuce]

. . .

On a sidenote: Was Miko's comment at the strips end a hidden compliment to Roy? He also likes to do speeches (and Miko heard two or three of his).

Probably, but I'm guessing that Miko may have heard more then her fair share of indignent speaches in her time as a Paladin. :smallwink:

[Haarculaneaum]

The point is that there are

SEVERAL

different ways to interpret fear, from it being a useless emotion to the most important. A reference material's (i.e. Wikipedia) purpose is not to decide which is the right view but to present all applicable and supportable viewpoints on said subject. Its editable nature prevents mass rewriting of non-esoteric articles simply because anyone can correct any inaccurate material. A gabillion studies show that groups can consistently be smarter than individuals.

Haar

[Lord Zentei]

The point is that there are

SEVERAL

different ways to interpret fear, from it being a useless emotion to the most important. A reference material's (i.e. Wikipedia) purpose is not to decide which is the right view but to present all applicable and supportable viewpoints on said subject. Its editable nature prevents mass rewriting of non-esoteric articles simply because anyone can correct any inaccurate material. A gabillion studies show that groups can consistently be smarter than individuals.

And these gabillion studies are found - where?

Anyway, this is all irrelevant, and on more than one level. Firstly, we are discussing psychology, which is an expert field of study and therefore something I would rather trust experts than groups among the general public who can freely edit webpages. Rinse and repeat for any number of disciplines that Wiki articles are about.

More improtantly, the concept of "fear" is, as you say, pretty broad, and as far as I can see the version of the concept as is being used in the article you referenced is irrelevant to our discussion. The paladins are clearly NOT all id and Superego, case in point being Hinjo. Therefore, that is not the correct notion of "fear" as far as this matter is concerned.

Nor are broad notions such as those Redcloak came up with relevant: if the paladins could not "fear" in such a broad sense, they would not "fear" for the safety of commoners, and so not protect them, etc. "Fear" means that they cannot be broken or intimidated, nothing more, nothing less.

[Lord Zentei]

Probably, but I'm guessing that Miko may have heard more then her fair share of indignent speaches in her time as a Paladin. :smallwink:

LOL. That's pretty much a given. :smallwink:

[Silkenfist]

She has MASSIVE weaknesses. Her personality is precisely what makes people dislike her. This is nothing more than the cliché "perfect characters are the most imperfect" nonsense.

Uhm...we can keep disagreeing on the rest, I don't care. But the statement "Perfect characters are the most imperfect ones" is pretty important to me, especially when it comes to roleplaying. Playing strength is easy, playing weakness is not. Anyone who displays nothing but strength is the weakest player of all.


What exactly has Xykon done to warrant sympathy? The only human quality he has ever displayed is a morbid sense of humour.

That and arrogance and spite and contempt. You did notice that I admire flaws, right? A Xykon without flaws would not have been defeated and he wouldn't be as pleasant to watch.


Evidence for this claim? And what does this have to do with any of my posts anyhow?
Nothing, I just wanted to add my 2 cent to the theories why Miko is not loved by the PC's. For evidence, I recommend reading of "The amygdala and emotional memory" by Cahill, Barbinsky, Markowtisch & McGaugh in the 377th issue of Nature (1995) (pages 295-296)



Concerning how "flawed" Miko is: Your arguments are actually supporting my point. If you tell me that Miko is flawed and you feel sympathy, it might be that your sympathy comes from the weaknesses you see in her. To me, however, their eventual weaknesses are not displayed well, thus I am unable to feel sympathy.

[Lord Zentei]

Uhm...we can keep disagreeing on the rest, I don't care. But the statement "Perfect characters are the most imperfect ones" is pretty important to me, especially when it comes to roleplaying. Playing strength is easy, playing weakness is not. Anyone who displays nothing but strength is the weakest player of all.

No: playing strength is hard, playing weakness is easy. That is why roleplaying Paladins well is difficult.


That and arrogance and spite and contempt. You did notice that I admire flaws, right? A Xykon without flaws would not have been defeated and he wouldn't be as pleasant to watch.

Then you refer to weakness as weakness of character? If so, then Miko certainly qualifies, being arrogant and contempuous. And is that not the reason people voice dislike for her?

On the flip side, are you seriously claiming that Xykon's arrogance and contempt are endearing traits? Without "weaknesses" defined according to terms such as these, I doubt he would have been an antagonist. And again, excluding Miko with such criteria and not Xykon is a bit questionable. Do you then dislike characters such as Celia and Lirian (based on what we have seen of them, anyway)?


Nothing, I just wanted to add my 2 cent to the theories why Miko is not loved by the PC's. For evidence, I recommend reading of "The amygdala and emotional memory" by Cahill, Barbinsky, Markowtisch & McGaugh in the 377th issue of Nature (1995) (pages 295-296)

No links? Whatever. Anyhow, your theory, like Haars, fails to account for Hinjo's personality.


Concerning how "flawed" Miko is: Your arguments are actually supporting my point. If you tell me that Miko is flawed and you feel sympathy, it might be that your sympathy comes from the weaknesses you see in her. To me, however, their eventual weaknesses are not displayed well, thus I am unable to feel sympathy.

No: my point was that your argument was contradictory. As for myself: I can both respect strength of character and feel sympathy for weakness of character, and like a character for either reason.

[Freelance Henchman]

"Perfect characters are the most imperfect ones" is pretty important to me, especially when it comes to roleplaying. Playing strength is easy, playing weakness is not. Anyone who displays nothing but strength is the weakest player of all.


"Perfect characters are the most imperfect ones" sounds like nonsense to me. What is a "perfect" character? How do you even pretend to be a "perfect" character? And how do you "display nothing but strength"? By never failing? That's not likely to happen, I'd say.

[Silkenfist]

"Perfect characters are the most imperfect ones" sounds like nonsense to me. What is a "perfect" character? How do you even pretend to be a "perfect" character? And how do you "display nothing but strength"? By never failing? That's not likely to happen, I'd say.

By never displaying weakness. By trying to find the "best" solution in each situation, not the one your character is most likely to find. By choosing to act realistic even if it causes you disadvantage. Don't think in terms of dices and skill checks. Think in terms of roleplaying.

[Haarculaneaum]

Actually, Hinjo's personality is unimportant.
I was simply presenting evidence for the claim that fearlessness would create mental instability.
I even said that this ought not to apply to Miko, as her mental development (which is generally cemented in adolescence/early adulthood) happened while she was training to be a Monk, not a Paladin.
And, really, "no links?" you can't type g-o-o-g-l-e-.-c-o-m?
Haar

[Freelance Henchman]

By never displaying weakness. By trying to find the "best" solution in each situation, not the one your character is most likely to find. By choosing to act realistic even if it causes you disadvantage. Don't think in terms of dices and skill checks. Think in terms of roleplaying.

Why would you willfully use a non-optimal solution if you know of a better one? If you try to do something your character is not likely to be capable of, the DM will (in my experience) tell you very quickly. So if you play a character with 7 INT you decide yourself that some action is too clever for your char, so you better do something stupid to "keep it realistic"?

[Lord Zentei]

By never displaying weakness. By trying to find the "best" solution in each situation, not the one your character is most likely to find. By choosing to act realistic even if it causes you disadvantage. Don't think in terms of dices and skill checks. Think in terms of roleplaying.

Then Miko qualifies as displaying weakness, since she consistently steps on people's toes by playing the aloof, low-empathy warrior for Law and Good to the hilt, regardless of how others feel about it. She does maintain such weaknesses of character, even when it is disadvantageous.

On that, you seem to have switched from discussing liking for characters in a literary sense to liking of PLAYER behaviour based on how they play their characters.

[Freelance Henchman]

I was simply presenting evidence for the claim that fearlessness would create mental instability.
Haar

Why would the gods saddle their champions, i.e. paladins with a crippling personality disorder? You can't possibly understand the "aura of fearlessness" to mean that paladins are all emotionally crippled robots with no will and sense of self-preservation.

[Silkenfist]

Then you refer to weakness as weakness of character? If so, then Miko certainly qualifies, being arrogant and contempuous. And is that not the reason people voice dislike for her?

On the flip side, are you seriously claiming that Xykon's arrogance and contempt are endearing traits? Without "weaknesses" defined according to terms such as these, I doubt he would have been an antagonist. And again, excluding Miko with such criteria and not Xykon is a bit questionable. Do you then dislike characters such as Celia and Lirian (based on what we have seen of them, anyway)?

1. I don't like Celia und Lirian much for these reasons exactly.
2. If you browse the Miko FRC thread you will find that there is room for debate whether she displays arrogance and contempt.


No links? Whatever. Anyhow, your theory, like Haars, fails to account for Hinjo's personality.

You rejected the wikipedia link, so this is the most trustworthy source I could find. To Hinjo: He is the son of Shojo, which makes him different from the rest of the Samurai force. Also, I don't know what point you are going to prove by mentioning him.



No: my point was that your argument was contradictory. As for myself: I can both respect strength of character and feel sympathy for weakness of character, and like a character for either reason.

OK, I think we can agree on a few terms. We respect the strong characters and feel sympathy for the weak ones. The last subordinate clause will still be a problem, though. I would like a person(!) that displays strength but I would not like a fictional character. Maybe these are personal differences, since neither of us seems to be alone with that point of view.

[Lord Zentei]

Actually, Hinjo's personality is unimportant.

No, it is not. If you are planning to craft a theory that explains Miko's character in terms of her not feeling fear, (this lack of fear being because she is a paladin), then it is perfectly relevant to show that your theory fails to account for other paladins.


AI was simply presenting evidence for the claim that fearlessness would create mental instability.
I even said that this ought not to apply to Miko, as her mental development (which is generally cemented in adolescence/early adulthood) happened while she was training to be a Monk, not a Paladin.

You claimed that Miko's personality was the way it was because she felt no fear. You did mention that she used to be a monk, but that is entirely incidental to the main argument you presented, that "no fear => ego breaks down + this resembles Miko". Let's be honest here, mmmk?


AAnd, really, "no links?" you can't type g-o-o-g-l-e-.-c-o-m?
Haar

LOL! Are you really asking for a flamewar? I don't mind either way, personally. Just be sure that you'll get what you ask for. :smallbiggrin: And did you miss my point that it is not my job to find evidence to support my opponent's position?

[Silkenfist]

Oh, I just got what you tried to prove with Hinjo. I am not saying fearlessness causes mental instability or a corrupt ego or a bad personality. I am trying to prove that it severely hinders social interaction. Hinjo seems like a nice kid and he doesn't get egg on his face but his qualities in social interaction are not clearly revealed.

[Lord Zentei]

1. I don't like Celia und Lirian much for these reasons exactly.

So: you dislike nice, non-threatening people, but like arrogant, contemptuous ones. Amazing.


2. If you browse the Miko FRC thread you will find that there is room for debate whether she displays arrogance and contempt.

LOL! The Miko FRC is meant to adress attacks on her character. That is "I don't like Miko because she is arrogant". You seem to be saying you don't like her because she is NOT arrogant? What of the other characters that don't display arrogance - you dislike them also?


You rejected the wikipedia link, so this is the most trustworthy source I could find. To Hinjo: He is the son of Shojo, which makes him different from the rest of the Samurai force. Also, I don't know what point you are going to prove by mentioning him.

And what does his relation to Shojo have to do with anything? Or is he to be excused for his lack of arrogance because of familial connections?


OK, I think we can agree on a few terms. We respect the strong characters and feel sympathy for the weak ones. The last subordinate clause will still be a problem, though. I would like a person(!) that displays strength but I would not like a fictional character. Maybe these are personal differences, since neither of us seems to be alone with that point of view.

Whatever. Our discussion is on whether our positions make sense or not.

[xyzchyx]

Ah, Wikipedia, the most untrustworthy of resources.
On wikipedia....

Counting the number of factual errors per article present, wikipedia is at least as accurate and reliable as any commercial encyclopedia (that is, the "high" number of mistakes discovered in wikipedia can be readily attributable to the simple fact that there are orders of magnitude more articles in it than a typical encyclopedia and therefore just a statistical anomaly), but wikipedia is still found lacking simply because with an encyclopedia, you know who to blame if there is an error, but with wikipedia you rarely do, so there really is a not as high a degree of accountability for being factual with wikipedia. Without accountability for veracity, it cannot be practical for research purposes (and therefore is typically mistrusted), even though it may still be for all intents and purposes very accurate and useful for acquiring information.

As another poster mentioned, wikipedia is a place to _start_... not finish.

(sorry for drifting off topic there... but this is a common misperception about wikipedia that IMO deserves to be pointed out)

[Lord Zentei]

Oh, I just got what you tried to prove with Hinjo. I am not saying fearlessness causes mental instability or a corrupt ego or a bad personality. I am trying to prove that it severely hinders social interaction. Hinjo seems like a nice kid and he doesn't get egg on his face but his qualities in social interaction are not clearly revealed.

Do you excuse him because he seems like a nice kid or because his possible defects have not been revealed? Your position becomes ever more unclear.

[Lord Zentei]

On wikipedia....

Counting the number of factual errors per article present, wikipedia is at least as accurate and reliable as any commercial encyclopedia (that is, the "high" number of mistakes discovered in wikipedia can be readily attributable to the simple fact that there are orders of magnitude more articles in it than a typical encyclopedia and therefore just a statistical anomaly), but wikipedia is still found lacking simply because with an encyclopedia, you know who to blame if there is an error, but with wikipedia you rarely do, so there really is a not as high a degree of accountability for being factual with wikipedia. Without accountability for veracity, it cannot be practical for research purposes (and therefore is typically mistrusted), even though it may still be for all intents and purposes very accurate and useful for acquiring information.

As another poster mentioned, wikipedia is a place to _start_... not finish.

(sorry for drifting off topic there... but this is a common misperception about wikipedia that IMO deserves to be pointed out)

And as I pointed out, it is not incumbent on me to provide evidence for my opponent's position. And no, Wikipedia is not as accurate as commercial encyclopedias. The much vaunted study by Nature that compared Britannica and Wikipedia focused not on the whole articles presented in Britannica, only on their introductory abstracts. I know this because I happen to read Britannica on a regular basis.

[Haggis_McCrablice]

Some might think this is a splendid allegory for Tuesday's very contentious midterm election. I find whether you're a hero or a politician, it's a constant struggle to not become worse than what you fight against.

[Silkenfist]

So: you dislike nice, non-threatening people, but like arrogant, contemptuous ones. Amazing.

What the...? You didn't read my post, right? I told you it was about fictional characters. The people to which they would translate are a different matter entirely. Reality =|= Fiction.



LOL! The Miko FRC is meant to adress attacks on her character. That is "I don't like Miko because she is arrogant". You seem to be saying you don't like her because she is NOT arrogant? What of the other characters that don't display arrogance - you dislike them also?

See my last posts. I like ANY sign of human error: Arrogance or something else. If I say, Miko is near-flawless, I don't say she has no error at all. I say her flaws are displayed disproportionally less often than her qualities.



And what does his relation to Shojo have to do with anything? Or is he to be excused for his lack of arrogance because of familial connections?

Read my last post.

[Haarculaneaum]

I said:

It really depends on who you ask but the argument is certainly there that fear creates personality (and it would explain a lot about Miko except for the fact that her fear got removed AFTER she had 2 levels of Monk).

then I said:

If Miko lacks fear then her ego doesn't work. All Superego and Id (which is what she seems to display).

Lord Zen said:

And moreover, the fact that this description you have presented - all id and Superego - does not fit Hinjo would presumably undermine your argument as I have pointed out in my previous post, yes?

and

The paladins are clearly NOT all id and Superego, case in point being Hinjo.

and

No links? Whatever. Anyhow, your theory, like Haars, fails to account for Hinjo's personality.

and

You claimed that Miko's personality was the way it was because she felt no fear. You did mention that she used to be a monk, but that is entirely incidental to the main argument you presented, that "no fear => ego breaks down + this resembles Miko". Let's be honest here, mmmk?

and then threatened a flamewar.

Now. I presented that an argument could be made that the lack of fear = severe personality problems. I then said "if Miko lacks fear" she would have this problem. I also pointed out that developmentally this would likely by untrue, as Miko only (relatively) recently gained her "lack of fear."

I am trying to show that
a) someone's idea (including Redcloaks) about a lack of fear being unnatural has support (something Lord Zen asked for)

and

b) that idea probably can't explain Miko's behavior.

Please actually read my posts before you threaten haughtily to fly off the handle.

Haar

[Lord Zentei]

What the...? You didn't read my post, right? I told you it was about fictional characters. The people to which they would translate are a different matter entirely. Reality =|= Fiction.

I'm well aware of that. It's still amazing.


See my last posts. I like ANY sign of human error: Arrogance or something else. If I say, Miko is near-flawless, I don't say she has no error at all. I say her flaws are displayed disproportionally less often than her qualities.

Funny, most of Miko's detractors see things differently. LOL! Anyway, her character flaws do not include being aloof and lacking empathy? Tell me what you think.


Read my last post.

I have responded to your last post. I was composing my response to your post before that when you posted it.

[Lord Zentei]

I said:

It really depends on who you ask but the argument is certainly there that fear creates personality (and it would explain a lot about Miko except for the fact that her fear got removed AFTER she had 2 levels of Monk).

then I said:

If Miko lacks fear then her ego doesn't work. All Superego and Id (which is what she seems to display).

Lord Zen said:

<SNIPPA>

You claimed that Miko's personality was the way it was because she felt no fear. You did mention that she used to be a monk, but that is entirely incidental to the main argument you presented, that "no fear => ego breaks down + this resembles Miko". Let's be honest here, mmmk?

and then threatened a flamewar.

:smallbiggrin: YOU are the one who was skirting on the edges of a flamewar with your behaviour. I was merely pointing this out. And yes, you did indeed present the idea that Miko was the way she was because she had her fear removed, as anyone can see. Indeed, you included that very point in this very post.


Now. I presented that an argument could be made that the lack of fear = severe personality problems. I then said "if Miko lacks fear" she would have this problem. I also pointed out that developmentally this would likely by untrue, as Miko only (relatively) recently gained her "lack of fear."

I am trying to show that
a) someone's idea (including Redcloaks) about a lack of fear being unnatural has support (something Lord Zen asked for)

No. I was asking for REAL WORLD evidence that such a correlation made sense, not that Redcloak had this opinion. You know this perfectly well, otherwise you would not have linked to Wikipedia.


and

b) that idea probably can't explain Miko's behavior.

Please actually read my posts before you threaten haughtily to fly off the handle.

Nonsense. :smallamused: Your point was PRECISELY that Miko's personality could be explained by her fear being removed: not only that but you continued to argue in favour of that position for several exchanges. If that had not been your position all along, why did you not clarify your position long before now?

Neither am I "flying off the handle", I am merely pointing out that you are mistaken. Do try to concede with some grace, kid.

[NeuroSci]

Anyway, this is all irrelevant, and on more than one level. Firstly, we are discussing psychology, which is an expert field of study and therefore something I would rather trust experts

Since you asked so nicely...

Fear is a chemical reaction in the brain, governed by the Amygdala. It is generally beleived to provide several critical functions, although opinion varies. The most obvious of these are things like fight or flight, but there is also evidence that the Amygdala is closely involved with Facial recongition. (That's from Fellous and Arbib's "Who Needs Emotions?: The Brain Meets the Robot.")

Patients without fear are severely disabled, but can be fuctional. If you are actually interested, you can check Kendel, Jessell and Schwarts' excellent "Principlesof Neural Science" for more information. Or enter into a MD or Neuroscience program at your college of choice. (That would tend to reduce the time you've got available to discuss OotS, however.)

As a practical point, the use of Wikipedia is widespread among academics. It's an excellent resource, used often. I wouldn't use it as a reference in a journal paper or conference presentation, but it's certainly up the the reliability standards needed for an internet forum.

Regards,

[Haarculaneaum]

I didn't clarify my position because I was providing evidence and why that evidence would be valued. I don't care about Miko being this or that -- I simply wish her into non-existence.

And:
"LOL! Are you really asking for a flamewar? I don't mind either way, personally. Just be sure that you'll get what you ask for."

Seems pretty threatening to me.
Haar

[Lord Zentei]

Since you asked so nicely...

You being an expert, I take it?


Fear is a chemical reaction in the brain, governed by the Amygdala. It is generally beleived to provide several critical functions, although opinion varies. The most obvious of these are things like fight or flight, but there is also evidence that the Amygdala is closely involved with Facial recongition. (That's from Fellous and Arbib's "Who Needs Emotions?: The Brain Meets the Robot.")

Patients without fear are severely disabled, but can be fuctional. If you are actually interested, you can check Kendel, Jessell and Schwarts' excellent "Principlesof Neural Science" for more information. Or enter into a MD or Neuroscience program at your college of choice. (That would tend to reduce the time you've got available to discuss OotS, however.)

That hardly describes Miko, and thus, this concept of fear is hardly relevant.

As was pointed out, "fear" is pretty broad. In any case, "removal of fear" in the context given does not neccesarily mean a dysfunctional Amygdala.


As a practical point, the use of Wikipedia is widespread among academics. It's an excellent resource, used often. I wouldn't use it as a reference in a journal paper or conference presentation, but it's certainly up the the reliability standards needed for an internet forum.

I would certainly not use it for any research, personally, nor would I refer to it as "excellent" by any stretch of the imagination; the best one can use it for is to follow the links to whatever further resources are cited there. As for its usefulness in internet discussions, that is rather dependant on its articles not being seemingly self-contradictory, wouldn't you agree?

[Lord Zentei]

I didn't clarify my position because I was providing evidence and why that evidence would be valued. I don't care about Miko being this or that -- I simply wish her into non-existence.

Fine. But then why spend so much time on the discussion?

EDIT: What on Earth do you mean by "I didn't clarify my position because I was providing evidence and why that evidence would be valued."? Anyway, if you accept that you did not clarify your position, then you can't really complain about your posts being misunderstood, right?


And:
"LOL! Are you really asking for a flamewar? I don't mind either way, personally. Just be sure that you'll get what you ask for."

Seems pretty threatening to me.

Oh? "Are you really asking for a flamewar" is more a question and an admonition, from where I'm sitting, as is "you get what you ask for": implication, if you are not asking for a flamewar, you won't get one.

[Renegade Paladin]

Apparently PnP D&D (which I haven't played) is quite different from the computer games (which I have played). In the games Paladins had to have a really high CHA from the start.
In second edition, which Baldur's Gate is based on, classes did have ability score requirements, among them CHA 13+ for a paladin. This was removed in 3e.

[Lord Zentei]

In second edition, which Baldur's Gate is based on, classes did have ability score requirements, among them CHA 13+ for a paladin. This was removed in 3e.

It was even higher in First Edition: CHA 17+ was the requirement.

[zapperchamp]

Yay, I want to join in! Fire everywhere! Fireball, fireball! Wall of fire! Firestorm! And for good measure, maximized FIREBALL!!!!

Anyway, it may be that she took the duties of a monk a little too seriously (which is understandable considering the way she acts as a paladin). We don't know what monks she trained with and she may have felt that as a monk she was to put all personal needs and wants aside.

[MonkeyHead]

ahhahahahahh that was great!

Preach it!

[Renegade Paladin]

Evidence (such as it is) can be found here for a very small start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear

It really depends on who you ask but the argument is certainly there that fear creates personality (and it would explain a lot about Miko except for the fact that her fear got removed AFTER she had 2 levels of Monk).

Haar
And also two levels of paladin; aura of courage doesn't come into play until 3rd.

It was even higher in First Edition: CHA 17+ was the requirement.
Eh. It was 17; I screwed up. I knew it was; not sure how 13 got in there.

[NeuroSci]

You being an expert, I take it?
Of course. This topic is closely related to my doctoral dissertation.



That hardly describes Miko, and thus, this concept of fear is hardly relevant.

As was pointed out, "fear" is pretty broad. In any case, "removal of fear" in the context given does not neccesarily mean a dysfunctional Amygdala.

Now, wait-make up your mind. Do you want real world data on fear and what it's related to in the brain, or not? Surely, you don't think there's people with no fear and no physical manifestation related to why that might be? If you think that, why the call for real world data?


I would certainly not use it for any research, personally, nor would I refer to it as "excellent" by any stretch of the imagination; the best one can use it for is to follow the links to whatever further resources are cited there. As for its usefulness in internet discussions, that is rather dependant on its articles not being seemingly self-contradictory, wouldn't you agree?

No. If someone actually wants to know things, it's a great resource. The article in discussion said there are multiple points of view, one of which supported the original poster's intent. You asked for support for the idea removal of fear is crippling to personality (or some such thing) and there it was. With additional links, as you mention. How is that NOT useful?

As for whether or not you use it for research, or whether or not it's "excelelnt by any stretch", that's funny; every researcher I know uses it. Maybe you have very, very high standards. Or, maybe, you just don't realize a good research tool when you see it.

[Lord Zentei]

Now, wait-make up your mind. Do you want real world data on fear and what it's related to in the brain, or not? Surely, you don't think there's people with no fear and no physical manifestation related to why that might be? If you think that, why the call for real world data?

I did indeed ask for real world data, because the insinuation was that lack of fear can lead to serious personality disorders. You assert that this is indeed the case. Well and good, that is perfectly acceptable.

But: the reason that this position was presented vis-a-vis this thread specifically was in an effort to describe Miko's character flaws. In that sense, the hypothesis fails.


No. If someone actually wants to know things, it's a great resource. The article in discussion said there are multiple points of view, one of which supported the original poster's intent. You asked for support for the idea removal of fear is crippling to personality (or some such thing) and there it was. With additional links, as you mention. How is that NOT useful?

If the article posits that there are multiple points of view, how can that be a definitive answer? If there are better and more authoritative articles, why not link to them directly?


As for whether or not you use it for research, or whether or not it's "excelelnt by any stretch", that's funny; every researcher I know uses it. Maybe you have very, very high standards. Or, maybe, you just don't realize a good research tool when you see it.

Really? Or perhaps you have very low standards, since the general concensus from those I speak to seems to be that one has to take it with a truckload of salt.

[Haarculaneaum]

"But: the reason that this position was presented vis-a-vis this thread specifically was in an effort to describe Miko's character flaws. In that sense, the hypothesis fails."

But you didn't ask for that. You asked for evidence supporting the idea that lack of fear was a crippling debilitation.

"If the article posits that there are multiple points of view, how can that be a definitive answer? If there are better and more authoritative articles, why not link to them directly?"

Perhaps because there are very few, if any, single point of view subjects in existence.

Haar

[xyzchyx]

Wikipedia is not as accurate as commercial encyclopedias.Going on actual error count, no... there are many more errors in wikipedia than what is found in a commercial encyclopedia. However, it is worthwhile to note that there are more than an order of magnitude more articles in wikipedia than what is found in the in-print version of Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance, but there does not appear to be quite as many times the number of errors in wikipedia as what is found in that encyclopedia, so the errors per article rate is actually slightly lower.

Anyways, as I said before, wikipedia's entries generally lack real accountability, and therefore are unsuitable for research or serious debate purposes. Wikipedia is, however, still a very useful resource for acquiring general knowledge about something and can in general be relied upon to be at least as factual as an encyclopedia. It's worth noting that wikipedia is, for all intents and purposes, just another form of what is often called "anecdotal evidence", which itself is very often factual enough for day-to-day purposes, but again fails on the issue of accountability that is absolutely required for research purposes.

And in all fairness, it's worthwhile to note that the online version of Britannica _does_ have a better errors per article rate than Wikipedia (roughly 2 errors per article, compared to Wikipedia's 3), so there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that online research databases are more accurate than in-print ones (and yes, the irony here is deliberate).

[Lord Zentei]

But you didn't ask for that. You asked for evidence supporting the idea that lack of fear was a crippling debilitation.

I have already accepted NeuroSci's answer on that score. And no, again you are being misleading, for while I did ask for evidence that lack of fear is crippling, it was in the broader context of this debate. That point was merely one of many, as you know quite well.


Perhaps because there are very few, if any single point of view subjects in existence.

Ah, so. But then how does it provide an answer to the question of which point of view is correct?

[Corp]

Good speech. Redcloak knocked it out of the park with that one.

[Haarculaneaum]

It doesn't. Nor can anyone. That's the point of learning and debate. You argue to a better POV or try to refine your POV but you can never be sure which one is correct.

Which is, of course, the problem with Miko.

Completing the circle,
Haar

[Lord Zentei]

Going on actual error count, no... there are many more errors in wikipedia than what is found in a commercial encyclopedia. However, it is worthwhile to note that there are more than an order of magnitude more articles in wikipedia than what is found in the in-print version of Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance, but there does not appear to be quite as many times the number of errors in wikipedia as what is found in that encyclopedia, so the errors per article rate is actually slightly lower.

As I recall, the error count in Nature's study was roughly equal, with Wiki being slightly higher. But as I understood it, they compared articles in similar fields, thus the number of articles actually examined was similar.

And again, they did not examine the in-depth articles in Britannica, merely the abstracts (Wikis articles don't go in as great depth as Britannica ones). Crucially: they did not consider the magnitude of the errors.


Anyways, as I said before, wikipedia's entries generally lack real accountability, and therefore are unsuitable for research or serious debate purposes. Wikipedia is, however, still a very useful resource for acquiring general knowledge about something and can in general be relied upon to be at least as factual as an encyclopedia. It's worth noting that wikipedia is, for all intents and purposes, just another form of what is often called "anecdotal evidence", which itself is very often factual enough for day-to-day purposes, but again fails on the issue of accountability that is absolutely required for research purposes.

Wikipedia = anecdotal evidence lacking accountability, that I can accept. Useful resource for aquiring general knowledge - perhaps, perhaps not - but in either case, why not use Britannica online instead?


And in all fairness, it's worthwhile to note that the online version of Britannica _does_ have a better errors per article rate than Wikipedia (roughly 2 errors per article, compared to Wikipedia's 3), so there is anecdotal evidence to suggest that online research databases are more accurate than in-print ones (and yes, the irony here is deliberate).

There may be more continious feedback to the publishers, and more opportunity for the publishers to correct errors in an online database. I have no problems at all with online databases. It's the lack of accountability and quality control in Wiki that arouses my mistrust.

[Lord Zentei]

It doesn't. Nor can anyone. That's the point of learning and debate. You argue to a better POV or try to refine your POV but you can never be sure which one is correct.

Which is, of course, the problem with Miko.

Completing the circle,
Haar

Well, not quite, since the initial assertion implied a FACT, not an opinion. One is entitled to one's own opinions, not to one's own facts.

[~The Patriots~]

I think i'm starting to like miko's character a lot more

[krossbow]

I think I'm starting to get a grendel esque setup here with Miko; in the book (Grendel, NOT beowulf), Grendel spares (Crap, forgot his name, he was the head of the King's guards or something; Unsforth?) when he follows him out of spite, Horribly torturing that he alone was continually spared death each time he failed to stop grendel in one of his attacks.


That would seem to be something that Miko would fall from; going more and more all out to stop Xycon for slighting her by walking away from her and not killing her as "not worth it".

[Lord Zentei]

I think I'm starting to get a grendel esque setup here with Miko; in the book (Grendel, NOT beowulf), Grendel spares (Crap, forgot his name, he was the head of the King's guards or something; Unsforth?) when he follows him out of spite, Horribly torturing that he alone was continually spared death each time he failed to stop grendel in one of his attacks.


That would seem to be something that Miko would fall from; going more and more all out to stop Xycon for slighting her by walking away from her and not killing her as "not worth it".

It's "Unferth", if memory serves.

[Renegade Paladin]

Xykon, damn it. :tongue:

[Lord Zentei]

Xykon, damn it. :tongue:

No, no: I'm quite certain that it was Unferth. In fact, I can't remember any "Xykon" character in "Grendel" at all. :smalltongue:

[Renegade Paladin]

That would seem to be something that Miko would fall from; going more and more all out to stop Xycon for slighting her by walking away from her and not killing her as "not worth it".
Well then it's most convenient that I wasn't addressing you. :smallwink:

[Zeb The Troll]

Most Miko-lovers are just plain intelligent and open-minded.
:smallfurious: Are you actually implying that those who don't like Miko are not intelligent or open-minded? I can't stand her. Do I come across as unintelligent to you? I assure you that I'm not. I'm also not prone to emotional responses but I find this declaration particularly offensive. I think you'll find, if you look objectively, that the ratio of "intelligent" people for and against her is roughly the same on both sides of the fence. I dare say also that generically declaring that "Miko-haters" are unintelligent is distinctly closed-minded and likely to provoke further argument.


I don't understand why Redcloak thinks that Miko, in particular, is hypocritical. I think he would have made the same speech to any paladin. After all, unlike the OotS, Redcloak and Xykon did not spend several weeks travelling with her.

I'm not sure where you're going here. I would offer that he thinks she, in particular, is hypocritical because she's the one who made the statement. Yep, I think he would have said that to any paladin who made the same statement.


Calling someone (let's say fear IS removed) "at least as unnatural as Xykon", would be the same as calling someone with a cardiac pacemaker (otherwise unmodified human), a full body cyborg (someone with only his brain left).
He's not implying she's unnatural because she's emotionless. He's saying she is because she is fearless. He's saying that missing that most basic primal instinct that even a woodchuck has is at least as "unnatural" as missing organs. To use another analogy, I'd say his comparison is akin to saying "A car without it's gas tank is just as useless one that has no engine." [If we declare that car=being, fuel=fear, useless=unnatural, and engine=physical apparatus necessary for ambulation, you'll see that's just what he said.] Maybe you disagree with the scale, but don't misinterpret the statement. You can't make a factual comparison out of an opinion statement.


Wikipedia is NOT a good encyclopedia precisely BECAUSE I can alter it if I disagree with it.
I glossed over a lot of this discussion because it bored me after the 87th consecutive post but I'd just like to add my assertion that Wikipedia is accurate enough to gain a basic understanding of most topics included and for the more esoteric or challenging of topics, you can find linked resources that ARE more trustworthy. For example, if you've never heard of Giza you can look there and find out that's where the Great Pyramids are. If you're doing a research paper on Giza, you can find links to two books and a National Geographic Society publication on the topic. So it is, in my view, a good starting point.

[Lord Zentei]

Well then it's most convenient that I wasn't addressing you. :smallwink:

I was aware of that. :smallbiggrin:

Just a bit of nonsense, that's all. :smalltongue:

[Lord Zentei]

:smallfurious: Are you actually implying that those who don't like Miko are not intelligent or open-minded? I can't stand her. Do I come across as unintelligent to you? I assure you that I'm not. I'm also not prone to emotional responses but I find this declaration particularly offensive. I think you'll find, if you look objectively, that the ratio of "intelligent" people for and against her is roughly the same on both sides of the fence. I dare say also that generically declaring that "Miko-haters" are unintelligent is distinctly closed-minded and likely to provoke further argument.

Chill. I rather suspect that the statement was meant in jest.


I glossed over a lot of this discussion because it bored me after the 87th consecutive post but I'd just like to add my assertion that Wikipedia is accurate enough to gain a basic understanding of most topics included and for the more esoteric or challenging of topics, you can find linked resources that ARE more trustworthy. For example, if you've never heard of Giza you can look there and find out that's where the Great Pyramids are. If you're doing a research paper on Giza, you can find links to two books and a National Geographic Society publication on the topic. So it is, in my view, a good starting point.

I did in fact state that the only redeeming feature I could see about Wiki were the links it provided to more reliable sources. My position was, and is, that the Wiki articles themselves are another matter.

[TinSoldier]

:smallfurious: Are you actually implying that those who don't like Miko are not intelligent or open-minded? I can't stand her. Do I come across as unintelligent to you? I assure you that I'm not. I'm also not prone to emotional responses but I find this declaration particularly offensive. I think you'll find, if you look objectively, that the ratio of "intelligent" people for and against her is roughly the same on both sides of the fence. I dare say also that generically declaring that "Miko-haters" are unintelligent is distinctly closed-minded and likely to provoke further argument.I don't think he meant to cause offense; I don't believe he meant to imply because he thought that Miko supporters are intelligent and open-minded (not something I'm ready to defend) that by corollary Miko haters are not.


I'm not sure where you're going here. I would offer that he thinks she, in particular, is hypocritical because she's the one who made the statement. Yep, I think he would have said that to any paladin who made the same statement.Which statement? The one where she has no fear? What is hypocritical about it?


Hypocrisy is... well, I know what it is but I had to look up the definition to be able to discuss it better:

1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.

or

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.
From Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrisy)

I see no falseness or pretense in her statement. That is why I was confused by the charge of hypocrisy. Myopic, maybe. Hypocritical? No.

[Zeb The Troll]

Wikipedia = anecdotal evidence lacking accountability, that I can accept. Useful resource for aquiring general knowledge - perhaps, perhaps not - but in either case, why not use Britannica online instead?
Firstly, because Wikipedia is more accessible. For instance, in my Firefox browser I can directly query Wikipedia from the built-in search tool. I can't do that with Britannica. (For what it's worth, I can also directly query d20SRD.org, another reason I like Firefox over other browsers.:smallbiggrin:)

Secondly, Britannica doesn't appear to link to other sources. For example, the references available that I mentioned in my last post are not present in the Britannica entry. And the Wiki entry is, frankly, much more informative.

All that being said, where Wiki does fall apart is ANY topic that's controversial. For example the entry about "abortion" at one point was changing at a rate of several times per hour. This is something to bear in mind when using it as a research tool (since the basic definition is accurate, it's just the controversial aspects about the topic that may be unusable). Although that entry too is heavily footnoted and could be used as a launch point for research on many aspects of the topic. Compare that to the Britannica entry and you get a 75 word sanitary blurb and a promise of more if you pay for it, which is not something that a non-researcher is going to do, most often.

[Lord Zentei]

Ah, more on Wiki. This discussion seems even more heated than the Miko debates. LOL!!


Firstly, because Wikipedia is more accessible. For instance, in my Firefox browser I can directly query Wikipedia from the built-in search tool. I can't do that with Britannica. (For what it's worth, I can also directly query d20SRD.org, another reason I like Firefox over other browsers.:smallbiggrin:)

Ah, well. I guess it is pretty readily available. Not that that means it is better, mind. :smalltongue:


Secondly, Britannica doesn't appear to link to other sources. For example, the references available that I mentioned in my last post are not present in the Britannica entry. And the Wiki entry is, frankly, much more informative.

:smallconfused: That... I disagree with. But whatever.


All that being said, where Wiki does fall apart is ANY topic that's controversial. For example the entry about "abortion" at one point was changing at a rate of several times per hour. This is something to bear in mind when using it as a research tool (since the basic definition is accurate, it's just the controversial aspects about the topic that may be unusable).

:smallbiggrin: So true.


Although that entry too is heavily footnoted and could be used as a launch point for research on many aspects of the topic. Compare that to the Britannica entry and you get a 75 word sanitary blurb and a promise of more if you pay for it, which is not something that a non-researcher is going to do, most often.

Ah well, you get what you pay for. :smallwink: I was not talking about the free part of Britannica, you see. And now I think I understand why you claimed earlier why the Wiki was more informative...

[Piedmon_Sama]

Ugh. Rereading it a second time, I can't see how I ever saw the potential for character development in Miko. Or why anyone finds her relatable at all, for that matter. The only time she ever showed even a hint of internal doubt was when Durkon said he would choose the Order of the Stick over her. And more likely that was just the same indignation on her face as when Roy finally told her off. And even if it was doubt on her face, she squelched it immediately.

Miko was not created to be liked. She is a combination of two archetypes--the badly roleplayed, snobbish Paladin, and the annoying kung-fu-dual-katana acrobats--who all too regularly crop up in your D&D Campaigns. No wait, three disliked archetypes--she's also the pet DMPC who will force you to move through the storyline how the DM wants, whether you like it or not.

No one likes her. Even the other Sapphire Guard warriors think she's so up in her own butt, they can't stand to be around her for more than five minutes. At 14-16th level she's probably one of their more powerful officers, and they have her delivering messages to the furthest places possible because she's so unbearable.

Here's my theory on the matter: Miko is never going to fall. And she is never going to get better. She's going to stay exactly the way she is. Short of the Twelve Gods personally telling her to take the stick out of her butt, nothing is going to change her ways. Any internal questioning or ethical doubt her fans assign to her is the product of imagination, there is not one piece of direct evidence to suggest Miko has ever regretted anything she's done, aside from not clapping the OOTS in irons the first time she saw them.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Miko makes a 90 degree turnaround and joins our heroes for the final battle against ultimate evil. But at this moment I have to say that would be poor writing on the Giant's part, as effective revolutions of character should employ foreshadowing, and there hasn't been so much as a hint so far that Miko will change.

The only place I could see Miko being a "hero" is an Ayn Rand novel. She does good, but she does it for justice without compassion. She never tempers her zealotry with some healthy introspection. She never questions her own judgement, which every fair-minded person ought to do. Even when Durkon, one of the few people she decided to trust, told her he'd fight her if he had to, she never thought (except perhaps for a moment) "well gee, maybe the problem's with me." She never thinks that, even though her ostensible comrades obviously can't stand her.

What's her reaction when someone finally, flat-out tells her this? "Yeah well, your alignment is Evil. Up yours."

Whoever said posters that dislike Miko tend to make shorter, less thought-out posts, while her fans will usually post long, detailed rebuttals, made a solid generalization. Of course you'll get the occasional longwinded condemnation (like this) but most people who dislike Miko don't think on it beyond, "well, she's a jerk and Belkar is amusing, so." The irony is that Miko's supporters tend to come across much like Miko: humorless and stodgy. Overanalyzing what is meant to be a comic. Why on earth are you giving a stick-figure webcomic so much thought? Isn't it enough that Belkar's hijinx are amusing?

For me, it is. Belkar showed me that a Chaotic Evil character can actually work in a D&D Party atmosphere and be a valuable team member. This led me to create one of my favorite characters ever, a CE rogue/fighter/assassin who was in a party that otherwise ran the spectrum from Lawful Good to Neutral. The only value in Miko is seeing how not to play an alignment, unless you're writing up an NPC antagonist.

I read someone taking umbrage at this sort of thing. Do you really think it's so sick for us to prefer an evil character who is amusing and sometimes even insightful over a good character who is nothing but relentless self-importance and pomp? Are we all closet serial killers who quietly wish for a day we could enjoy the lethal skills and moral freedom of a Belkar or Xykon and go postal on that boss we all hate?

Of course not. The people who are sick are the ones that can't tell fantasy from reality. I would venture that in general, the posters who want Miko to die for being unamusing, want to see more Xykon and more one-liners, are the ones who are least emotionally/intellectually involved with the strip and the ones who have the least problem defining it as separate from reality.

And I'm not saying that if you like Miko you're some kind of nut who thinks Paladins are real like Santa Clause. But like I said earlier, in general Miko's fans are the ones who invest more attention to the strip and spend more time discussing it, reading deeper into it.

Me, I don't do that. Order of the Stick is a good comic. Better than a lot of professional ones I've read. But it has its problems. I would call Rich Burlew the Chris Claremont of webcomic writers, and mean it as both compliment and criticism. I don't think I'm out of line when I say Order of the Stick doesn't really merit the same level of ethical pondering as does The Brothers Karamazov, and I think The Giant would agree with me (not that I know).

Now don't think I'm saying "lol u giv teh komuk 2 much thot u nurd go get layd" to anyone. I enjoy practicing my essay writing and debate skills and I can understand the urge to do that with almost any subject. I've written six page essays comparing Franz Kafka to the X-Men, so I'm hardly going to call debating about OOTS-ethics wrong.

But I think when you talk about internet comics, you have to accept that most people just aren't going to take it as seriously as you. And that's fine, because how seriously you take a webcomic pretty much says nothing about you as a person in any other respect.

So yeah, I like Xykon and Redcloak and Belkar way better than that stodgy stick-up-the-butt tool of a Paladin. I would lay down money that when Rich Burley wrote up Miko, he created her to be disliked and didn't anticipate how much debate she was going to stir up. It's just that simple for me.

[Zeb The Troll]

I don't think he meant to cause offense; I don't believe he meant to imply because he thought that Miko supporters are intelligent and open-minded (not something I'm ready to defend) that by corollary Miko haters are not.

If no comparison was intended, why make the statement? Meh, okay I'll concede your point that I may have misinterpreted the intention of the statement.

Which statement? The one where she has no fear? What is hypocritical about it?
The hypocrisy is her pretense that she is not unnatural while declaring that Xykon is (a statement not disputed by Redcloak or Xykon).

[TinSoldier]

Wow, Piedmon_Sama. Just wow. That was some post.

Umm. I disagree with almost all of your points. But in a friendly and non-threatening manner.

:wink:

[Piedmon_Sama]

THEN PREPARE TO BATTLE





















Hold up, internet battles take a while.

[TinSoldier]

Meh. I've been battling all day. Time to call it a day.

[Lord Zentei]

Ugh. Rereading it a second time, I can't see how I ever saw the potential for character development in Miko. Or why anyone finds her relatable at all, for that matter. The only time she ever showed even a hint of internal doubt was when Durkon said he would choose the Order of the Stick over her. And more likely that was just the same indignation on her face as when Roy finally told her off. And even if it was doubt on her face, she squelched it immediately.

The arc is not over, and neither is the story.


Miko was not created to be liked. She is a combination of two archetypes--the badly roleplayed, snobbish Paladin, and the annoying kung-fu-dual-katana acrobats--who all too regularly crop up in your D&D Campaigns. No wait, three disliked archetypes--she's also the pet DMPC who will force you to move through the storyline how the DM wants, whether you like it or not.

No one likes her. Even the other Sapphire Guard warriors think she's so up in her own butt, they can't stand to be around her for more than five minutes. At 14-16th level she's probably one of their more powerful officers, and they have her delivering messages to the furthest places possible because she's so unbearable.

Oh, I'm under no illusions as to the archetypes that went into her design, nor the fact that no one likes her in the story.


Here's my theory on the matter: Miko is never going to fall. And she is never going to get better. She's going to stay exactly the way she is. Short of the Twelve Gods personally telling her to take the stick out of her butt, nothing is going to change her ways. Any internal questioning or ethical doubt her fans assign to her is the product of imagination, there is not one piece of direct evidence to suggest Miko has ever regretted anything she's done, aside from not clapping the OOTS in irons the first time she saw them.

Ugh. Well, I certainly hope you are wrong.


The only place I could see Miko being a "hero" is an Ayn Rand novel.

LOL! That's almost siggable. :smallbiggrin:


Whoever said posters that dislike Miko tend to make shorter, less thought-out posts, while her fans will usually post long, detailed rebuttals, made a solid generalization. Of course you'll get the occasional longwinded condemnation (like this) but most people who dislike Miko don't think on it beyond, "well, she's a jerk and Belkar is amusing, so." The irony is that Miko's supporters tend to come across much like Miko: humorless and stodgy. Overanalyzing what is meant to be a comic. Why on earth are you giving a stick-figure webcomic so much thought? Isn't it enough that Belkar's hijinx are amusing?

Now, that's unfair. The whole point of these forums is to discuss. How does that translate to "humourless and stodgy" if we take our pleasure in in depth analysis of a comic we enjoy reading? Pfft.


For me, it is. Belkar showed me that a Chaotic Evil character can actually work in a D&D Party atmosphere and be a valuable team member. This led me to create one of my favorite characters ever, a CE rogue/fighter/assassin who was in a party that otherwise ran the spectrum from Lawful Good to Neutral. The only value in Miko is seeing how not to play an alignment, unless you're writing up an NPC antagonist.

Which is precisely what she is, but otherwise agreed here.


I read someone taking umbrage at this sort of thing. Do you really think it's so sick for us to prefer an evil character who is amusing and sometimes even insightful over a good character who is nothing but relentless self-importance and pomp? Are we all closet serial killers who quietly wish for a day we could enjoy the lethal skills and moral freedom of a Belkar or Xykon and go postal on that boss we all hate?

Don't be silly. As far as I'm concerned, the point made was that arguments made against Miko can generally also be made against the villains, yet, they get a free pass, because they have a sense of humour. Frankly, that may be the crux of Miko's flaws - apart from her lack of empathy.


Of course not. The people who are sick are the ones that can't tell fantasy from reality. I would venture that in general, the posters who want Miko to die for being unamusing, want to see more Xykon and more one-liners, are the ones who are least emotionally/intellectually involved with the strip and the ones who have the least problem defining it as separate from reality.

Oh, give me a break. That we analyze a stick comic means that we can't distinguish reality? Where does that leave you with this long, thought out post of yours? :smallbiggrin:


And I'm not saying that if you like Miko you're some kind of nut who thinks Paladins are real like Santa Clause. But like I said earlier, in general Miko's fans are the ones who invest more attention to the strip and spend more time discussing it, reading deeper into it.

Does that mean we are more likely to know what we are talking about?:smalltongue:


Me, I don't do that. Order of the Stick is a good comic. Better than a lot of professional ones I've read. But it has its problems. I would call Rich Burlew the Chris Claremont of webcomic writers, and mean it as both compliment and criticism. I don't think I'm out of line when I say Order of the Stick doesn't really merit the same level of ethical pondering as does The Brothers Karamazov, and I think The Giant would agree with me (not that I know).

Neither do I. I doubt that any webcomic does.


Now don't think I'm saying "lol u giv teh komuk 2 much thot u nurd go get layd" to anyone. I enjoy practicing my essay writing and debate skills and I can understand the urge to do that with almost any subject. I've written six page essays comparing Franz Kafka to the X-Men, so I'm hardly going to call debating about OOTS-ethics wrong.

Really? I do beleive that's what you just did. :smalltongue:


But I think when you talk about internet comics, you have to accept that most people just aren't going to take it as seriously as you. And that's fine, because how seriously you take a webcomic pretty much says nothing about you as a person in any other respect.

Good heavens, there is no way I'm taking it seriously in any meaningful sense of the word. I do find inane posts annoying, though, that's all.


So yeah, I like Xykon and Redcloak and Belkar way better than that stodgy stick-up-the-butt tool of a Paladin. I would lay down money that when Rich Burley wrote up Miko, he created her to be disliked and didn't anticipate how much debate she was going to stir up. It's just that simple for me.

Entirely possible. And so, of course, I add "so"? Discussions are fun to participate in. As you presumably agree.

[Solara]

Does it seem to anyone else that the word "natural" is a little ill-defined in a world where you can't take two steps without stumbling over gods, demons or magic?

Plus, Redcloak's whole little speech about it being unnatural to "have no fear" (whatever that really means) and hypocrisy etc. really ticked me off. Amassing armies of the undead, attacking peaceful cities and trying to DESTROY THE VERY FABRIC OF REALITY are IMHO a little worse than having an irritating personality.

This comic was as if the Giant himself joined the ludicrous Miko Haters Brigade.



I find it pretty hilarious how all the Miko haters:

1) Crow about Redcloak's indignant speech about how "Miko is teh suxxors", since of course, someone who is the grand priest of a religious cult apparently devoted to destroying the gates that keeps creation safe has the moral high ground in passing out judgements of the kind Redcloak just did.

2) A couple of days ago were wanting to see her "fall" to evil and now want to see her killed by an evil villain, yet keep insisting that she is too judgemental.

3) Are still spouting inane one liners.

L.O.L.


God, it's posts like this that make me just want to leave the forum in disgust. Is it not good enough to simply like or dislike a character? No, of course not, you also have to attack everyone who doesn't share your opinion, even the Giant himself.

Honestly people, I'm sorry the storyline doesn't go exactly the way you want it to all the time, but it's just a webcomic, GET A GRIP!

[Lord Zentei]

God, it's posts like this that make me just want to leave the forum in disgust. Is it not good enough to simply like or dislike a character? No, of course not, you also have to attack everyone who doesn't share your opinion, even the Giant himself.

Honestly people, I'm sorry the storyline doesn't go exactly the way you want it to all the time, but it's just a webcomic, GET A GRIP!

Right back at you, kiddo. My post, at least, was made in good humour. I see no reason to fly off the handle. Nor did I attack the Giant, so please don't associate Freelance_Henchman's position with mine.

And I can't say I am seeing the storyline not going where I want it: it's damned interesting, actually.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Now, that's unfair. The whole point of these forums is to discuss. How does that translate to "humourless and stodgy" if we take our pleasure in in depth analysis of a comic we enjoy reading? Pfft.

For starters, you could try to shoot back with a zinger instead of getting huffy. :smallbiggrin:




Don't be silly. As far as I'm concerned, the point made was that arguments made against Miko can generally also be made against the villains, yet, they get a free pass, because they have a sense of humour. Frankly, that may be the crux of Miko's flaws - apart from her lack of empathy.

Depends on what arguments. I mean, I'll give you "Miko may be a jerk, but Xykon's a jerk too." But Xykon is not unamusing, which is to me Miko's cardinal sin.




Oh, give me a break. That we analyze a stick comic means that we can't distinguish reality? Where does that leave you with this long, thought out post of yours? :smallbiggrin:

Did you read the paragraph right after that one?


[/quote]Does that mean we are more likely to know what we are talking about?:smalltongue:


Your subjective and unprovable opinions are much more, uh... logical than mine, I'll give you that. =D


[quote]Good heavens, there is no way I'm taking it seriously in any meaningful sense of the word. I do find inane posts annoying, though, that's all.

And I say that it's the internet. Hating something for being inane is like living under the sea and being all, "I hate these fish. They're always pissing in the water!"


Entirely possible. And so, of course, I add "so"? Discussions are fun to participate in. As you presumably agree.

Man, I tell you what, I am so sorry I missed out on the era of trial-by-combat. With a 260 lb. E.M bench and 300 lb. squat I'd be a great lawyer. My arena-name would be "The Litigator," and my special move would be "The Emotional Duress Suplex," the only move that made Bradley "The Ballbreaker" Hayer cry.

Also, I could be wrong about Miko. Because I have been before. When she was first introduced I seriously thought she was going to become the seventh Order member, and maybe eventually even a romantic partner for Roy. I still have fanart for OOTS I drew like, a year ago with Miko standing in as one of the Order. It sure isn't getting posted now, in anycase...

[Piedmon_Sama]

Right back at you, kiddo. My post, at least, was made in good humour. I see no reason to fly off the handle. Nor did I attack the Giant, so please don't associate Freelance_Henchman's position with mine.

And I can't say I am seeing the storyline not going where I want it: it's damned interesting, actually.

Now see, that's why I always coach my brute generalizations with the caveats "in general," and "not that there's anything wrong with that," see, 'cause I'm a polite mother****er is what.

You guys are so lucky to have me and you don't even know. =D

[Lord Zentei]

For starters, you could try to shoot back with a zinger instead of getting huffy. :smallbiggrin:

I'm "huffy"? Waaah! Waaah! :smallfrown:


Depends on what arguments. I mean, I'll give you "Miko may be a jerk, but Xykon's a jerk too." But Xykon is not unamusing, which is to me Miko's cardinal sin.

As I said, a character can get away with anything as long as (s)he has a sense of humour. Bah.

Still, the very fact that she lacks a sense of humour can itself be humorous. See: avant garde!! :smallcool: Case in point: the issue with the "bumping uglies". (Guess someone failed their "sense motive" there eh, eh? LOL!)


Did you read the paragraph right after that one?

Obviously. It still does not reduce the irony. :smalltongue:


Your subjective and unprovable opinions are much more, uh... logical than mine, I'll give you that. =D

VICTOLY!!![/engrish]


And I say that it's the internet. Hating something for being inane is like living under the sea and being all, "I hate these fish. They're always pissing in the water!"

Those damn fish!! :smallfurious:

Seriously, though, deconstructing inane posts is one of the things internet forums are bloody for. So pfft. :smalltongue: I still prefer discussing things more in depth, though. It's like - you go for some entertainment, and its all - blah. That's the reason I don't like inane posts. Unless they are one liners made for humour content, or something like it. "ZOMG TEH TELETUBBIES AR TEH SUXXORS!! I HAET SPORTACUS!!" somehow doesn't seem to make spending time online worth it, if you catch my drift. :smallwink:


Man, I tell you what, I am so sorry I missed out on the era of trial-by-combat. With a 260 lb. E.M bench and 300 lb. squat I'd be a great lawyer. My arena-name would be "The Litigator," and my special move would be "The Emotional Duress Suplex," the only move that made Bradley "The Ballbreaker" Hayer cry.

I have participated in fencing. So: fear my mad Rapier skillz. I can only hope that you don't have Shatter, like Belkar does. :smallbiggrin:


Also, I could be wrong about Miko. Because I have been before. When she was first introduced I seriously thought she was going to become the seventh Order member, and maybe eventually even a romantic partner for Roy. I still have fanart for OOTS I drew like, a year ago with Miko standing in as one of the Order. It sure isn't getting posted now, in anycase...

I certainly hope you are wrong. Of course, stuck up paladins are a cliché but so are redemptions of flawed anti-heroes. As for myself, I find the only dislikable character in fiction is the one that takes center stage and yet shows no development. So, I'll concede you were right if at the very end of the series she is still the same. Unless she dies heroically, of course. :smallwink:

And no, she never struck me as a potential order member, always that antagonist's aura over her. For all that she needn't be all bad.

[Lord Zentei]

Now see, that's why I always coach my brute generalizations with the caveats "in general," and "not that there's anything wrong with that," see, 'cause I'm a polite mother****er is what.

You guys are so lucky to have me and you don't even know. =D

BAH! Where is the fun in mealy mouthed brute generalizations? What is the point of them?

ALL OR NOTHING!! SMITE EVIL!! :smalltongue:


I thought that the "LOL" I used would have shown I was kidding. Damn, we need a LOL smiley. Oh, well :smallbiggrin: will have to do for now.

[B9anders]

You know, very few creatures are unremittingly good or evil-- that does not profit the long-term plans of either good or evil (whichever is relevant).

That is why we love Xykon though. He is just so evil; right to the bone (get it?).


BTW: What is Xykon going to do once he has power over the Gates? Will he just hang around in his tower watching TV and eating chips for the rest of eternity, because, well, with absolute power there's not much more to achieve really, right? Oh, right, he's a Lich, he doesnt need food, and as far as I know, Liches dont need, ahem, *female* "company" either. What is the end goal? He wants to be the one and only, supreme GOD himself?

ENTERTAINMENT! UNLIMITED ENTERTAINMEEEEENT! ARHAHAHAHAHA!

[krossbow]

Personally, I don't think that The miko haters will be happy till she's been executed in a manner that makes most hentai seem mild.

"evard's spiked tentacles of intrusion!... METAMAGIC MAXIMIZED!"

I personally like her, and realize that for how much everyone hates her, she realizes that she serves a purpose, and someone's got to be the guy that everybody hates just for doing their job.

[Kish]

Does it seem to anyone else that the word "natural" is a little ill-defined in a world where you can't take two steps without stumbling over gods, demons or magic?

Plus, Redcloak's whole little speech about it being unnatural to "have no fear" (whatever that really means) and hypocrisy etc. really ticked me off. Amassing armies of the undead, attacking peaceful cities and trying to DESTROY THE VERY FABRIC OF REALITY are IMHO a little worse than having an irritating personality.

This comic was as if the Giant himself joined the ludicrous Miko Haters Brigade.
Except that, y'know, Miko knew Redcloak was full of it and shrugged off everything he said.

The only people to acknowledge Miko's disdain for Redcloak's opinions shouldn't be the ones who think it somehow reflects badly on her.

[Karkadinn]

The irony is that Miko's supporters tend to come across much like Miko: humorless and stodgy. Overanalyzing what is meant to be a comic. Why on earth are you giving a stick-figure webcomic so much thought?

You do realize you said this in the middle of an entirely negative and hostile 1,127-word post, don't you?
Overanalysis is a symptom of passionate fandom. It is a compliment towards the writer for creating a world that people like to inspect in minute detail, and will continue to exist as long as good stories are told and have enthusiastic fans.

[Haarculaneaum]

First of all, Go Piedmon.

Secondly, Lord Zen said:

"Ah well, you get what you pay for. :smallwink: I was not talking about the free part of Britannica, you see. And now I think I understand why you claimed earlier why the Wiki was more informative..."

Thank you for pointing out the obvious reason Wikipedia is the best encyclopedia in the multiverse -- it's absolutely free.

Haar

[Piedmon_Sama]

You do realize you said this in the middle of an entirely negative and hostile 1,127-word post, don't you?
Overanalysis is a symptom of passionate fandom. It is a compliment towards the writer for creating a world that people like to inspect in minute detail, and will continue to exist as long as good stories are told and have enthusiastic fans.

Obsession.

Passion.

Beauty for men.

(By Calvin Klein.)

[krossbow]

Which is why its vandalized and locked on a regular basis. Wiki isn't exactly authoritative.



Overall, I disliked this comic, though it is of course required. Have to keep Miko alive; she's a great antagonist.

Summon your mount on the Liche's head Miko!




You know... if she'd gone straight monk instead of jamming that stick up her arse and becoming a paladin, she could just dimension door her way out.

[Lord Zentei]

Secondly, Lord Zen said:

"Ah well, you get what you pay for. :smallwink: I was not talking about the free part of Britannica, you see. And now I think I understand why you claimed earlier why the Wiki was more informative..."

Thank you for pointing out the obvious reason Wikipedia is the best encyclopedia in the multiverse -- it's absolutely free.

That does not make it the "best" encyclopedia - any more than watching a sporting event through binoculars is a "better" experience than being in the stadium because that way you don't need to pay admission.

[caboose117]

Originally Posted by Piedmon_Sama View Post
Whoever said posters that dislike Miko tend to make shorter, less thought-out posts, while her fans will usually post long, detailed rebuttals, made a solid generalization. Of course you'll get the occasional longwinded condemnation (like this) but most people who dislike Miko don't think on it beyond, "well, she's a jerk and Belkar is amusing, so." The irony is that Miko's supporters tend to come across much like Miko: humorless and stodgy. Overanalyzing what is meant to be a comic. Why on earth are you giving a stick-figure webcomic so much thought? Isn't it enough that Belkar's hijinx are amusing?

ok, as said by that other guy, making an assumption that all miko supporters are humorless and stodgy, you're being a moron. You have just assumed something, and I think if you read this you're now going to assume I'm also a Miko fan. No. Poeople, why these long discussions? Aren't we all reading the same web comic? People like Miko for their reasons, and others don't for their reasons. Also, to those who try to prove what fear is, you're trying to prove something that is never the same. That is like trying to prove God exists. It is a BASIC lesson in science that some things that are supernatural can't be proven. Well, about fear, it isn't supernatural, but it can be perceived in many ways, and human feelings will never be fully understood. Try proving a postulate in geometry. Not so simple now that you think about it.


Main point being, this is a web comic people. Calm down. Miko has flaws like everyone else, her own diverse personality, some people like it, some don't. Can't we just poke fun at the punch lines now?

[caboose117]

O ya, another thing being, Wikipedia is sometimes accurate, sometimes not. I would never trust it for anything outside of a high school classroom, because it is an INTERNET source. the internet is basicly one of the WORST places you can go for information. Wiki is for ANYBODY to try and change and add to, making it even worse, because some people try to screw info up, but most people who do that don't make good websites so they don't really bother anyone. Then their is wiki. Easy bait for any moron. Also any debatable things can be made one sided, like religion.

[Lord Zentei]

<SNIPPA>

????

Dude. Quote tags are your friends. Don't give them the cold shoulder.:smallbiggrin:

[greenknight]

Except that, y'know, Miko knew Redcloak was full of it and shrugged off everything he said.

Of course he is. Aura of Courage only works while the Paladin is conscious, so when the Paladin sleeps (for example), he/she/it can certainly feel fear. In fact, their normal immunity might make them even more sensitive to fear while they're unconscious.

The thing is, I doubt Redcloak knows much about what motivates Paladins. From his perspective, fear might be a great motivator when it comes to doing right and wrong. But Paladins don't need fear for that, since they have a conscience. Immunity to fear doesn't block out feelings of shame or guilt, nor does it stop one from knowing right and wrong. By removing their fear response, all the Gods have done is make Paladins more able to do the right (moral/ethical) thing.

[Piedmon_Sama]

ok, as said by that other guy, making an assumption that all miko supporters are humorless and stodgy, you're being a moron.
^I AM VERY FUNNY. JUST ASK ANYONE YOU MORON. >:O

OK, I wasn't going to come back and say anything serious for the rest of the thread, but because its looking like people won't let this go I'll clarify myself. I said people who support Miko tend to come across as humorless and stodgy. I know they're not. They read OOTS, obviously they have some sense of humor. They just don't bother to preface their posts with "lol Giant ur teh funneh" and we tend to imagine their posts intoned with grim determination. It's basically the equivalent of a guy who never cracks a smile wondering why everyone thinks he's bad-tempered.

And as for my "separating fantasy from reality" comment, that wasn't targeting anyone. At all. I trust everyone who posts on this forum can tell the difference between real and make-believe--we are all roleplayers, after all, and that is a base requirement of the hobby.

Well OK, there was that one dude one time, right after Belkar lit Miko on fire, he posted something that was like, "there! She's dead now! Are you HAPPY!? SHE'S DEAD!!!" And that was high-larious. But seriously dude-guy-buddy, I'm not frontin' down on you and your posse, relax.



Main point being, this is a web comic people. Calm down. Miko has flaws like everyone else, her own diverse personality, some people like it, some don't. Can't we just poke fun at the punch lines now?

Nuh uh you called me a moron and I'm gonna sit in this tree and cry until you apolagize to me and my dolls. ;_;

[Enlong]

Yeah, chances of her going blackguard have diminished but still a possibility. This comic has me wondering where Miko will go. She keeps praying to the 12 gods, perhaps one of them will be evil and help her? Not likely but still hoping...

Not sure about that. Miko's 12 Gods are the Animals of the Chinese Zodiac. (rat, pig, cow, snake, monkey, rabbit, tiger, horse, dog, rooster, sheep, dragon) Unless it's a Chromatic Dragon, I don't think any of her 12 gods are gonna be evil.

[Lord Zentei]

Nuh uh you called me a moron and I'm gonna sit in this tree and cry until you apolagize to me and my dolls. ;_;

NEVER!! VENGEANCE SHALL BE BROUGHT UPON ALL THE ENEMIES OF THE SAPPHIRE GUARD!! THERE CAN BE NO EXCUSE!! A CLEANSING FIRE SHALL BURN YOU!![/BeingOfPureLawAndGood]

Anyway, what did your dolls do? Ach! They are the masterminds behind these vile acts! They too shall be punished!

[Lord Zentei]

Not sure about that. Miko's 12 Gods are the Animals of the Chinese Zodiac. (rat, pig, cow, snake, monkey, rabbit, tiger, horse, dog, rooster, sheep, dragon) Unless it's a Chromatic Dragon, I don't think any of her 12 gods are gonna be evil.

I doubt she would pray to the ones that were evil, if any of them were that.

[krossbow]

Innocence is no defense! Burn the Heretics!

[Nightmarenny]

The alleged hypocricy was that she called Xykon "unnatural" while she is immune to fear. That was a bit of a stretch. And more than that, he accused her of not considering the possibility that she might be doing the wrong thing. That part was highly ironic, quite frankly.



No its not. Geeze Xyk and Redcloak know they are evil. There choice is their own and they made it. Miko however is blind to herself. All the bad qualities and tendancies she holds are ignored. thats her "tragic flaw" Weather she dies or is turned that will be the reason. She wants to do good. She doesn't understand the gray areas to life, nor is she capable of even considering that she might be wrong.

I am not a Miko hater, nor Miko lover I simply seek to point out that as The Giants said Miko is in herself the worst kind of Paladin. She is the extream. Giants way of showing the fault of some who play. She is not bad, just flawed. As a good character should.

[Lord Zentei]

No its not. Geeze Xyk and Redcloak know they are evil. There choice is their own and they made it. Miko however is blind to herself. All the bad qualities and tendancies she holds are ignored. thats her "tragic flaw" Weather she dies or is turned that will be the reason. She wants to do good. She doesn't understand the gray areas to life, nor is she capable of even considering that she might be wrong.

A fair point, though he also called her a hypocrite for calling Xykon "unnatural": that much at least is highly suspect. As for her not considering that she might be wrong, that hardly makes her hypocritical - myopic, yes, hypocrite, not so much.


I am not a Miko hater, nor Miko lover I simply seek to point out that as The Giants said Miko is in herself the worst kind of Paladin. She is the extream. Giants way of showing the fault of some who play. She is not bad, just flawed. As a good character should.

I don't disagree with her being the extreme at all, and I'm aware of the Giant's dissertations. Though classifying her as a hypocrite does not neccesarily follow.

The closest one could come to making such an argument is taking Roy's point that she follows the letter and not the spirit of the code. That's more "lack of empathy" than hypocricy, IMHO.

[skinkatlarge]

For those that are talking about... ...Xykon sending Miko against the OotS, whether as blackguard, undead minion, or just unreasoningly wrathful... I don't think Xykon is within miles of even thinking about the OotS. He barely remembers they exist. And he has no reason whatsoever to think they'd be a particular threat to his plans.

[Jefepato]

Redcloak's argument was damn smooth, but hardly sound.

The real question I'd like answered is this: did Miko shrug his rant off because she understood how it was flawed, or because she's just too closed-minded to seriously consider anything he says?

[Hyrael]

Yep, it's official: :redcloak: pWns! On this evidence, he could probably even beat Leaky in a duel of words (never mind a battle of wits).

What I don't understand is why :xykon: stopped in the middle of casting his Finger of Death/Slay Living/whatever. Has he seen too many Bond movies?

:miko: : "Do you expect me to talk beg for mercy?"
:xykon: : "No, paladin - I expect you to DIE!" :smallbiggrin:

No, as Dogma has taught us, Villains take Bond Movies as cautionary examples. the problem is that Xykon HASNT seen any bond movies.