PDA

View Full Version : Vow of Wealth



FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 12:33 AM
I just had a horrible idea that amuses me so much that I must share it.

So, "Vow of Wealth" would work a little bit like "Vow of Poverty" - you get direct mechanical benefits in exchange for not using expensive gear. The difference is that, with Vow of Wealth, you are allowed to keep your gold, and spend it on other things. Cohorts. Animals. Support organizations. Engineering contractors. Excavation crews. Bribes.

The goal of "Vow of Wealth" would be the direct application of money as your single greatest superpower.

SilverLeaf167
2013-02-15, 08:11 AM
I like the idea, since it encourages roleplaying and creative problemsolving (as long as the DM doesn't make it too powerful in his setting and/or the players don't exploit this), but it would probably be REALLY hard to fluff and otherwise explain. I really can't fathom what sort of celestial being would grant you superpowers for spending all your money on minions (for example), unless it's some really weird god with a weird dogma (God of Commerce? hmm).

On second thought, that God of Commerce idea sounds fun, you should use it. :smallwink:

This would probably work best, both fluff and crunch-wise, with some sort of socially capable caster, such as a Beguiler.

Ashtagon
2013-02-15, 08:24 AM
This encourages castle building, which in certain campaigns is also a form of character power in itself.

In another thread recently, I saw a "vow of hoarding", which was basically VoP for dragons; the wealth must be used to make a hoard.

kardar233
2013-02-15, 08:30 AM
I've seen a [Vile] Vow of Poverty equivalent for which you could not spend money on anything useful. You'd have to squander it away on massive feasts, extravagant clothing and jewelry and the like.

Would make a fun character.

Ashtagon
2013-02-15, 08:44 AM
I've seen a [Vile] Vow of Poverty equivalent for which you could not spend money on anything useful. You'd have to squander it away on massive feasts, extravagant clothing and jewelry and the like.

Would make a fun character.

That's just standard play mode in Conan.

navar100
2013-02-15, 08:47 AM
I like the idea, since it encourages roleplaying and creative problemsolving (as long as the DM doesn't make it too powerful in his setting and/or the players don't exploit this), but it would probably be REALLY hard to fluff and otherwise explain. I really can't fathom what sort of celestial being would grant you superpowers for spending all your money on minions (for example), unless it's some really weird god with a weird dogma (God of Commerce? hmm).

On second thought, that God of Commerce idea sounds fun, you should use it. :smallwink:

This would probably work best, both fluff and crunch-wise, with some sort of socially capable caster, such as a Beguiler.

Being wealthy is not Evil.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-15, 08:48 AM
It should be called something like Vow of Extravagance instead.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 10:05 AM
It
should be called something like Vow of Extravagance instead.

Well, you'd be neither required nor encouraged to waste it- the idea is that wealth would be your superpower, and you'd want to use it as effectively as possible.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-15, 10:10 AM
Well, you'd be neither required nor encouraged to waste it- the idea is that wealth would be your superpower, and you'd want to use it as effectively as possible.

It's called Artificer.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 11:03 AM
It's called Artificer.

No, Artificer is specifically through magic items; Vow of Wealth wouldn't give you any bonuses with those (Though, I'm reconsidering banning them outright). The idea is that you'd buy services, not goods. Hire minions, bribe officials, pay to have specific utility spells cast.

Actually, it started as a joke, but I'm actually starting to like the idea - not for a vow, but for a base class. It'd only work in the right sort of campaign (Roleplay heavy, sandbox, players encouraged to pursue their own goals by their own methods), but I could imagine it being a fun class. Working on it in homebrew.

RdMarquis
2013-02-15, 11:13 AM
There is a god of commerce in the Eberron setting. Kol Korran. He's said to oversee banks and anything to do with finances. Perhaps this could work for someone who worships him?

Jay R
2013-02-15, 11:19 AM
Vows of poverty actually existed in the real world, and were originally included in the game for purposes of simulation.

You're inventing something new. There's nothing wrong with that, but what is its gaming purpose? And what is its in-world purpose?

It sounds like something that is intended to give all the benefits of a vow of poverty, with only some of the drawbacks. If you wanted to use it in my game, I wouldn't even start deciding about it until you came up with:

1. A gaming purpose: how does this help the game be more fun for all the players?

2. An in-world purpose. What organization wants its members to take this vow, and why?

3. Clear balance. If it gives as much benefit as a vow of poverty, it must also carry as much drawback.

I have no problem with new ideas, but it's important to make them fit into the game, and the world, as a whole.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 11:46 AM
Vows of poverty actually existed in the real world, and were originally included in the game for purposes of simulation.

You're inventing something new. There's nothing wrong with that, but what is its gaming purpose? And what is its in-world purpose?

It sounds like something that is intended to give all the benefits of a vow of poverty, with only some of the drawbacks. If you wanted to use it in my game, I wouldn't even start deciding about it until you came up with:

1. A gaming purpose: how does this help the game be more fun for all the players?

2. An in-world purpose. What organization wants its members to take this vow, and why?

3. Clear balance. If it gives as much benefit as a vow of poverty, it must also carry as much drawback.

I have no problem with new ideas, but it's important to make them fit into the game, and the world, as a whole.

So, my original intention was:

I just had a horrible idea that amuses me so much that I must share it.

This was , I freely admit, a silly idea. Since I had it, I've actually sort of started to like it, and am re-making it as a base class in Homebrew: The Rich Guy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271768)

But, to answer anyway, point by point.

1: It encourages creative and unusual solutions. Gold is a powerful and versatile force in the world of D&D, but by PCs, it is almost always reserved for spells and magic items. The Vow of Wealth takes some of the pressure off of that (by giving you some of those benefits by default), and prevents you from spending money along those lines- allowing you to spend it along others. Cohorts, bribes, investment in organizations, funding large-scale projects... obviously, for a linear or hack-and-slash game, this would be a horrible idea. But, for an open-ended, roleplay game, it could be fun to see what sort of mark players make on the world.

2: I've never liked the flat D&D setting, and am not that familiar with it. But, as one of the guys above me mentioned, there are God of wealth and mercantilism, as well. Maybe they object to adventurers - some of the richest individuals in existence - still getting their hands dirty while living like particularly disenfranchised hobos?

3: Two points to this. First, Vow of Poverty is broken to begin with, at least by pure mechanics. As it's "Broken low", Vow of Wealth can be objectively better, while still balancing with the game as a whole. If I suggested a new feat, you wouldn't insist that it had to be balanced with "Skill Focus: Speak Language." for usefulness and mechanical benefit.

Secondly, I only said that Vow of Wealth is similar to Vow of Poverty in that it gives mechanical benefits, in exchange for limiting the player's use of magic items. I didn't say it had to be *exactly* the same - so, if you insisted on balancing Vow of Wealth to Vow of Poverty, you could simply give it worse benefits.

snoopy13a
2013-02-15, 11:51 AM
I just had a horrible idea that amuses me so much that I must share it.

So, "Vow of Wealth" would work a little bit like "Vow of Poverty" - you get direct mechanical benefits in exchange for not using expensive gear. The difference is that, with Vow of Wealth, you are allowed to keep your gold, and spend it on other things. Cohorts. Animals. Support organizations. Engineering contractors. Excavation crews. Bribes.

The goal of "Vow of Wealth" would be the direct application of money as your single greatest superpower.

It's funny, but from a mechanicial standpoint it sounds like you're double-dipping. That is, you get benefits for not spending your money on gear, which allows you to spend your money on other useful things.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 11:54 AM
It's funny, but from a mechanicial standpoint it sounds like you're double-dipping. That is, you get benefits for not spending your money on gear, which allows you to spend your money on other useful things.

So, presumably, Gear is generally the most effective thing you spend your money on; the mechanical benefits would be there to make up the difference.

So, in terms of benefit,

Gear Benefit = VoW Benefits + Other Wealth Benefits

Raimun
2013-02-15, 12:34 PM
When I read the title, I thought of something... different.

Instead of gaining special abilities at the expense of wealth (Vow of Poverty), you get wealth at the expense of special abilities (Vow of Wealth).

You still retain race benefits, HD, BAB, saves, skills and the "every third level"-Feats.

You get none of the class features of your class (including spell levels) but instead you are paid an extravagant sum of money for each class feature, class feature upgrade or spell level you get when leveling, in addition to WLB and share of loot.

You are free to spend the money however you want.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 12:39 PM
When I read the title, I thought of something... different.

Instead of gaining special abilities at the expense of wealth, you get wealth at the expense of special abilities.

You still retain race benefits, HD, BAB, saves, skills and the "every third level"-Feats.

You get none of the class features of your class but instead you are paid an extravagant sum of money for each class feature or class feature upgrade you get when leveling, in addition to WLB and share of loot.

You are free to spend the money however you want.

First, "Vow of Wealth" as stated doesn't "Lose" wealth, it just limits its uses. This isn't vow of poverty (or that vile equivalent) that require you to waste your money - it's still yours to spend, just in more limited ways. But, Vow of Wealth characters are absolutely supposed to use their wealth to further their ends.

Second... yeah. As I tarted to think about this as more than a joke, I came to something very similar to what you're proposing. It would be too difficult to do as a vow, though, so I'm making it as a base class - The Rich Guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271768).

Raimun
2013-02-15, 12:47 PM
First, "Vow of Wealth" as stated doesn't "Lose" wealth, it just limits its uses. This isn't vow of poverty (or that vile equivalent) that require you to waste your money - it's still yours to spend, just in more limited ways. But, Vow of Wealth characters are absolutely supposed to use their wealth to further their ends.

Second... yeah. As I tarted to think about this as more than a joke, I came to something very similar to what you're proposing. It would be too difficult to do as a vow, though, so I'm making it as a base class - The Rich Guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271768).

First, I meant to compare it with the Vow of Poverty. They "lose" wealth but gain abilities.

Second, I am joking but the more I think about this, the more fun it sounds. Hard to implement, though. What would a Fighter bonus feat cost or the trapfinding of a Rogue? :smalltongue:

Edit: And who is buying these class features and to what end? :smallbiggrin: :smalleek:

Dr.Epic
2013-02-15, 12:56 PM
At each level, your character must carry a certain amount of gold equal to no less than 1,000 times your current level:

level 1: 1,000 gp
level 2: 2,000 gp
level 3: 3,000 gp
level 4: 4,000 gp

At level 5, this increases to 2,000 times your current level:

level 5: 10,000 gp
level 6: 12,000 gp
level 7: 14,000 gp
level 8: 16,000 gp
level 9: 18,000 gp

At level 10, this increases to 10,000 times your current level:

level 10: 100,000 gp
level 11: 110,000 gp
level 12: 120,000 gp
level 13: 130,000 gp
level 14: 140,000 gp
level 15: 150,000 gp
level 16: 160,000 gp
level 17: 170,000 gp
level 18: 180,000 gp
level 19: 190,000 gp
level 20: 200,000 gp

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 01:31 PM
At each level, your character must carry a certain amount of gold equal to no less than 1,000 times your current level:

level 1: 1,000 gp
level 2: 2,000 gp
level 3: 3,000 gp
level 4: 4,000 gp

At level 5, this increases to 2,000 times your current level:

level 5: 10,000 gp
level 6: 12,000 gp
level 7: 14,000 gp
level 8: 16,000 gp
level 9: 18,000 gp

At level 10, this increases to 10,000 times your current level:

level 10: 100,000 gp
level 11: 110,000 gp
level 12: 120,000 gp
level 13: 130,000 gp
level 14: 140,000 gp
level 15: 150,000 gp
level 16: 160,000 gp
level 17: 170,000 gp
level 18: 180,000 gp
level 19: 190,000 gp
level 20: 200,000 gp

Well, no, that just makes that gold useless to your player. That isn't the point of the Vow of Wealth. Vow of Wealth is about mechanically encouraging a player to spend wealth in different ways.

Don't buy a better sword, hire a mercenary to swing the sword for you.

Don't buy a scroll of Mirror Image, get a bunch of commoners drunk and dress them like you.

Don't invest in magic lockpicks, just hire commoners to carry around several thousand pounds of explosives.

Radar
2013-02-15, 03:27 PM
Maybe it would be better to phrase the Vow a little differently:
you cannot freeze your wealth (or at least a solid part thereof) in things, that don't generate income. In essence, it would focus on keeping the money (or other valuables) flowing instead of hoarding it.

If you pay some mercenaries, they will spend that money on various goods. If you build a manufacture, you can produce things to sell in it. If you buy a magical sword, you're freezing a large sum in an object, which doesn't produce anything of value.

In the end we would have a character very concerned with profit and economy in general.

Edit
in short: if you don't use your wealth, you shouldn't have it.

SowZ
2013-02-15, 03:27 PM
I like the idea, since it encourages roleplaying and creative problemsolving (as long as the DM doesn't make it too powerful in his setting and/or the players don't exploit this), but it would probably be REALLY hard to fluff and otherwise explain. I really can't fathom what sort of celestial being would grant you superpowers for spending all your money on minions (for example), unless it's some really weird god with a weird dogma (God of Commerce? hmm).

On second thought, that God of Commerce idea sounds fun, you should use it. :smallwink:

This would probably work best, both fluff and crunch-wise, with some sort of socially capable caster, such as a Beguiler.

He worships the True Neutral goddess Aiyan Rahnd.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 03:31 PM
Maybe it would be better to phrase the Vow a little differently:
you cannot freeze your wealth (or at least a solid part thereof) in things, that don't generate income. In essence, it would focus on keeping the money (or other valuables) flowing instead of hoarding it.

If you pay some mercenaries, they will spend that money on various goods. If you build a manufacture, you can produce things to sell in it. If you buy a magical sword, you're freezing a large sum in an object, which doesn't produce anything of value.

In the end we would have a character very concerned with profit and economy in general.

Edit
in short: if you don't use your wealth, you shouldn't have it.

Not bad, but tough to enforce mechanically. Again (Even though I came up with it), I really don't think this works as a vow - but, it could be fun as a base class.

hamishspence
2013-02-15, 04:13 PM
He worships the True Neutral goddess Aiyan Rahnd.

Heh. Nice.

SowZ
2013-02-15, 05:10 PM
Heh. Nice.

Danke. (:

One issue with this idea that I see is how DM/campaign dependent it is, though.

FreakyCheeseMan
2013-02-15, 05:28 PM
Danke. (:

One issue with this idea that I see is how DM/campaign dependent it is, though.

The way I see it, it would only begin to work in very specific types of campaigns- if you're not in one of those, it shouldn't be allowed at all. But, I see no problem with making a niche feature.

Mark Hall
2013-02-15, 07:59 PM
I really can't fathom what sort of celestial being would grant you superpowers for spending all your money on minions (for example), unless it's some really weird god with a weird dogma (God of Commerce? hmm).

On second thought, that God of Commerce idea sounds fun, you should use it. :smallwink:


Slight aside: In my last C&C game, an unexpectedly major player was Waukeen, the Goddess of Trade. Players wound up investing a fair amount of money in ventures through her temple (for a fee, She hooked up investors with caravans and business folks). They also made regular "donations" to the Shrine of Mask (God of Thieves) for protection from thieves (i.e. those who paid were usually exempt from the depredations of thieves... but sometimes not).

Waukeen would not favor frivolously burning wealth, necessarily... that's Lliira. But pointing out that you're providing work to a large number of people, and turning into an economic engine by providing short-term stimulus to a local economy (i.e. jobs that won't last long, but will push it a bit further along) can be favored... provided you're not causing inflation.

Glimbur
2013-02-15, 08:07 PM
I made a PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12308014#post12308014) based on this idea. I don't know how well balanced it is; my gut says it is a bit underpowered. But interesting.