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Stake A Vamp
2013-02-24, 01:53 PM
so, my players wanted to do a native american type campaign.so, i read up on the culture, and decided i would get a consult. (for reference, we are using pathfinder, and we just finished a long-term campaign{like we are talking 7 years} and frankly, we stopped it because we were sick of grewhawk)

so, in order of classes we have

Barbarian: see fighter

Bard: the bard becomes the storyteller, and they are largely unchanged


Cleric: removed

Druid: name changed to shaman, allow access to all healing and divination spells, limit summoning.

Fighter: name changed to warrior, given the choice of two paths, the berserk-er (barbarian, but more skill points, and nature based bonuses) or the guardian (essentially fighter with more skill points and some defense bonuses)

Monk: removed

Paladin: Removed

Ranger: now called hunter given choice between bow track and spear track (gives you bonuses to ranger, damage and attack when using a spear)

Rogue: remains unchanged

Sorcerer: now called spirit seer, otherwise unchanged (may be removed)

Wizard: now called Wise-man,

Alchemist: now called herbalist, otherwise unchanged (may be removed)

Cavalier: (I need a consult on this one.)

Gunslinger: removed

Inquisitor: Removed

Oracle: now called spirit talker, otherwise unchanged

Summoner: now called spirit caller, otherwise unchanged

Witch: now called curse-bringer, otherwise unchanged (pending further thought)

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-24, 02:22 PM
I might remove the Wizard as well.

You'll also probably want to use some sort of defense bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm) variant as well, given that (to the best of my knowledge) native Americans weren't big on armor.

Razanir
2013-02-24, 02:29 PM
Is there any meaning or pattern to all the colors?

Stake A Vamp
2013-02-24, 02:54 PM
Is there any meaning or pattern to all the colors?

kinda, but not really, it just looked nice and professional.:smallredface:

scarmiglionne4
2013-02-24, 03:02 PM
Are you going historical at all, or are you just doing a Native-American flavored world?

I think a Leatherstocking Tales sort of game would be amazing. I have wanted to do something like that myself.

Stake A Vamp
2013-02-24, 03:25 PM
Are you going historical at all, or are you just doing a Native-American flavored world?

I think a Leatherstocking Tales sort of game would be amazing. I have wanted to do something like that myself.

umm, yes, im kinda going historical-ish (there's magic and all that stuff) also whats a leatherstocking tale game? :smallconfused:

scarmiglionne4
2013-02-24, 04:22 PM
umm, yes, im kinda going historical-ish (there's magic and all that stuff) also whats a leatherstocking tale game? :smallconfused:

A game based on the Leatherstocking Tales by James Fenimore Cooper. French and Indian War era. See the film 'The Last of the Mohicans' Starring Daniel-Day Lewis, even though that is nothing like the book, the spirit is still there.

My next question is have the Europeans arrived yet, is it before all that, or will that be the campaign focus? If they have, will players be able to be colonists?

Because if no one has brought horses yet that will put an end to anything like a cavalier, unless you just want to have horses anyway, or have them ride buffalo or something (which would be awesome).

You might want to check out Sidewinder. If there is something more appropriate someone out there let me know. If you aren't familiar with that, it is a D20 Wild West game. It has some Native American stuff in there, and some gritty rules for handling muskets and gunshot wounds if you planned on having a European presence or an equivalent.

Stake A Vamp
2013-02-24, 05:00 PM
A game based on the Leatherstocking Tales by James Fenimore Cooper. French and Indian War era. See the film 'The Last of the Mohicans' Starring Daniel-Day Lewis, even though that is nothing like the book, the spirit is still there.

My next question is have the Europeans arrived yet, is it before all that, or will that be the campaign focus? If they have, will players be able to be colonists?

Because if no one has brought horses yet that will put an end to anything like a cavalier, unless you just want to have horses anyway, or have them ride buffalo or something (which would be awesome).

You might want to check out Sidewinder. If there is something more appropriate someone out there let me know. If you aren't familiar with that, it is a D20 Wild West game. It has some Native American stuff in there, and some gritty rules for handling muskets and gunshot wounds if you planned on having a European presence or an equivalent.

nope, totally pre-settlers, though buffalo riding indians (native americans is getting to long) sounds awesome. and races are another possible point that will be problematic. this is going to be a "fight tooth and nail for survival, food, shelter, and land"-type game, so it could get dark fast.

Zelkon
2013-02-24, 05:14 PM
Bard: the bard becomes the storyteller, and they are largely unchanged
Awww, storyteller deserves to have some changes. Allow for more pre-combat buffing. Maybe refluff some cleric spells and give them to him. There's so much you can do with this.

Cleric: removed
Druid: name changed to shaman, allow access to all healing and divination spells, limit summoning.
I'd say for these two, add all the cleric spells that neither a druid, wizard or other core class get to the spell list of the druid. Maybe take away something in exchange.

Fighter: name changed to warrior, given the choice of two paths, the berserk-er (barbarian, but more skill points, and nature based bonuses) or the guardian (essentially fighter with more skill points and some defense bonuses)
Seems legit.

Monk: removed
Hmmm... I hate to just kill a whole class, but I can't think of any justification for this.

Paladin: Removed
Ranger: now called hunter given choice between bow track and spear track (gives you bonuses to ranger, damage and attack when using a spear)
I'd say do sort of a gestalt with these two along with some refluffing.

Rogue: remains unchanged
I wish I could think of something here, but I guess keeping it as-is is fine.

Sorcerer: now called spirit seer, otherwise unchanged (may be removed)
This should be your default spellcaster. Roll all the wizard's stuff into this.

Wizard: now called Wise-man,
See above.

Alchemist: now called herbalist, otherwise unchanged (may be removed)
Herbalist is a good idea. How are you going to fluff bomb?

Cavalier: (I need a consult on this one.)
I could see this working, although the mount might be hard. Kind of a tribal leader.

Gunslinger: removed
Yeah. Nothing to see here.

Inquisitor: Removed
Yeah, I can't see this one either.

Oracle: now called spirit talker, otherwise unchanged
Cool. Might want to add some druid spells.

Summoner: now called spirit caller, otherwise unchanged
Cool.

Witch: now called curse-bringer, otherwise unchanged (pending further thought)
That works.

Notes in bold.

scarmiglionne4
2013-02-24, 05:38 PM
nope, totally pre-settlers, though buffalo riding indians (native americans is getting to long) sounds awesome. and races are another possible point that will be problematic. this is going to be a "fight tooth and nail for survival, food, shelter, and land"-type game, so it could get dark fast.

Sounds good. For races you could do a couple of things. You could do tribal groupings for instance. While there were hundreds of tribes, you could simplify things by looking at what part of North America (or South America if you wanted to go there) they came from. Where they lived determined how they survived and what they were skilled at.

There was an old D&D book that described some indian-like clans. They were based on their totem animals.

The Horse clan were plains indians and skilled riders and were pretty much cavalier indians.

The Bear clan lived on a plateau and lived in Adobes. They preferred war clubs and were skilled climbers and jumpers.

The Turtle clan dwelt by the sea. They are whalers, so they fight with harpoons.

The Tiger Clan is sort of like the Aztecs. They live in the forests and are very warlike. They use bolas, blowguns, and the macahuitl.

The Elk clan also live in the forest. The prefer the tomahawk and the bow. When they must fight they use hit and run tactics.

That would be five races right there.

You could just use some of the core races with a little bit of changes and just say they are different character archetypes. Some people are more adaptable (humans), some are more agile (elves) some are tougher (dwarves), and some are stronger (half-orcs).

Stake A Vamp
2013-02-24, 07:46 PM
Notes in bold.
so, i do intend to revampo the spell list and some class features

Sounds good. For races you could do a couple of things. You could do tribal groupings for instance. While there were hundreds of tribes, you could simplify things by looking at what part of North America (or South America if you wanted to go there) they came from. Where they lived determined how they survived and what they were skilled at.

There was an old D&D book that described some indian-like clans. They were based on their totem animals.

The Horse clan were plains indians and skilled riders and were pretty much cavalier indians.

The Bear clan lived on a plateau and lived in Adobes. They preferred war clubs and were skilled climbers and jumpers.

The Turtle clan dwelt by the sea. They are whalers, so they fight with harpoons.

The Tiger Clan is sort of like the Aztecs. They live in the forests and are very warlike. They use bolas, blowguns, and the macahuitl.

The Elk clan also live in the forest. The prefer the tomahawk and the bow. When they must fight they use hit and run tactics.

That would be five races right there.

You could just use some of the core races with a little bit of changes and just say they are different character archetypes. Some people are more adaptable (humans), some are more agile (elves) some are tougher (dwarves), and some are stronger (half-orcs).

the elk clan are elves who have a particular favoritism for spears and bows, and are often found in groves of fruit trees, which they cultivate

the ram clan are dwarves with a well know favoritism for tomahawks and more permanent settlements in caves and platos

the buffalo clan are renowned for their buffalo riding cavalry, they are human and use primitive lances

the wolf clan are nomadic halflings who enjoy slinging stones at enemys from afar, using hit and run tactics when they are forced to fight, though they are normally diplomatic and on good terms with both badger and elk clans

the badger clan live subteranean lives, only exiting on rare occasions, they are well known for undermining whole settlements and slaughtering the survivors when angered

the tiger clan are orcs who simply enjoy combat, their gods constantly demand blood sacrifice, and they take prisoners to meet those demands

the boar clan are goblins, who are as often diplomatic as they are aggressive, and are well known for their frequent feasts, in honor of almost any occasion

scarmiglionne4
2013-02-24, 08:36 PM
so, i do intend to revampo the spell list and some class features


the elk clan are elves who have a particular favoritism for spears and bows, and are often found in groves of fruit trees, which they cultivate

the ram clan are dwarves with a well know favoritism for tomahawks and more permanent settlements in caves and platos

the buffalo clan are renowned for their buffalo riding cavalry, they are human and use primitive lances

the wolf clan are nomadic halflings who enjoy slinging stones at enemys from afar, using hit and run tactics when they are forced to fight, though they are normally diplomatic and on good terms with both badger and elk clans

the badger clan live subteranean lives, only exiting on rare occasions, they are well known for undermining whole settlements and slaughtering the survivors when angered

the tiger clan are orcs who simply enjoy combat, their gods constantly demand blood sacrifice, and they take prisoners to meet those demands

the boar clan are goblins, who are as often diplomatic as they are aggressive, and are well known for their frequent feasts, in honor of almost any occasion

I'm liking it, but I think you may want to trim that class list some. I am not familiar with Pathfinder though. I'll try to offer some non-specific-to-those-rules advice.

I really don't think you need more than one class that can cast spells. Unless you really intend on heading into high fantasy territory, magic shouldn't be too flashy. It sounds odd, but maybe you could tweak the Shaman from the old Oriental Adventures book to fit this game? I think an expanded spell list and some less monk-like bonus feats would be ideal for this. I was near to using that in what I was calling my savage campaign, but decided to start from scratch.

I think the druid would be great without spells. It would just be a shape-shifter class, which goes right along with Amerindian mythology Maybe there is a wild-shape only variant somewhere?

The Herbalist is a great idea. I tried to do one but could not make it work though without making it more complicated than I wanted.

I don't see the need for a dark shaman as it seems the witch would be. I just think some tribes' spiritual leaders might be a little more morbid than others. In other words, I don't think there needs to be a whole other class for what essentially is a shaman with with different domains.

When I think Rogue I think Apache. I just wanted to put that out there.

I don't know what to say about the Storyteller. It just sounds like The Shaman ought to just about cover this. Maybe make some homebrew buff spells to mimic bard song. Then again, a crazy guy/gal rattling bones and stuff and screaming would be fun to play. I'm on the fence on this idea.

Tavar
2013-02-24, 08:55 PM
Keep in mind that there were multiple Native American full blown civilizations, until diseases brought by the Europeans wiped out ~90% of their populations. Might want to narrow down exactly what 'era' you want to take from.

Zireael
2013-02-28, 03:58 AM
I'd keep all clans human - i.e. only one race in the world.

The question about horses and gunpowder and bombs is a good one.

There's nothing wrong with drawing from multiple eras and civilizations.

BarroomBard
2013-02-28, 04:39 AM
I'd keep all clans human - i.e. only one race in the world.

Well, you could always just use the stats for the different races, but just consider them humans.

Frathe
2013-02-28, 05:01 PM
Well, you could always just use the stats for the different races, but just consider them humans.I'd personally keep away from this. Hard to assign racial bonuses/penalties without falling into racism (or at least weird implications of inherently smarter/stronger tribes).

Palanan
2013-02-28, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by scarmiglionne4
Because if no one has brought horses yet that will put an end to anything like a cavalier....

Keep in mind that horses originally evolved in North America, and were most likely still here when the first Native Americans arrived. Given the importance of the horse to the later Plains cultures, it's perfectly in keeping for horses to be a major aspect of your campaign setting.

As for armor, apparently treated hide armor was widely used by many groups, as well as bone and ivory plates by the Inuit and wooden variants in the East. These were adequate against arrows, but ineffective against firearms, so they dropped out of local favor whenever guns appeared. Given all the oddball varieties of armor in the 3.5 books, I'd say you have plenty of support. And don't forget shields, which were also widely used.

I'd strongly agree with Zireael to keep all the clans human; sorting them into the standard D&D races seems a little pat, and it detracts from the semi-mythical feel of the setting. As for clan or regional bonuses, I'd suggest bonuses to skills and saves rather than physical or mental stats. For instance, many Southwestern peoples were incredible runners; you could build on that in several ways.

Also, I mainly agree with scarmiglionne4 that a shapeshifting druid without spells would be perfectly in line with some of the Southwestern traditions. Rather than tinkering with the druid, though, I would suggest the wildshaping ranger variant. (I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder, but I'm assuming the wildshape ranger could be imported without too much trouble.)

This looks like it could be a great campaign--be sure to post a campaign log once you get going.

Stake A Vamp
2013-02-28, 10:16 PM
so, i intend to keep the tribes human, and am now taking suggestions (i am looking for eight at most so be advised.)

also this is one of three possibility's that i have going on, here is the world-building thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14801334#post14801334) for the other two possibilities.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-28, 10:46 PM
Also, I mainly agree with scarmiglionne4 that a shapeshifting druid without spells would be perfectly in line with some of the Southwestern traditions. Rather than tinkering with the druid, though, I would suggest the wildshaping ranger variant. (I'm not too familiar with Pathfinder, but I'm assuming the wildshape ranger could be imported without too much trouble.)

Not to toot my own horn, but I'd like to point out a few things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213031)I've made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240943) that you may be interested in... (I've had a player use the Beastman for a good portion of a campaign. It worked very well-- it pretty much always had a way to contribute, but was never too strong).

Ashtagon
2013-03-01, 01:51 AM
Keep in mind that horses originally evolved in North America, and were most likely still here when the first Native Americans arrived. Given the importance of the horse to the later Plains cultures, it's perfectly in keeping for horses to be a major aspect of your campaign setting.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse#Pleistocene_extinctions
http://en.wikipedia.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagerman_Horse/wiki/History_of_North_America#The_beginning_of_North_Am erica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara_pump_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse#Taxonomy_and_evolution

Horses existed in North America until ~12000 years ago (12 kya). Horses of that era were essentially identical to the lighter sorts of modern riding horses.

Humans arrived in North America some time between 40 kya and 17 kya. It is believed that horses migrated out from North America about this time, on the same land bridges. More distant relatives of horses (eg zebras) migrated out earlier. This follows a similar pattern to the Sahara pump theory, but using the Alaskan land bridge rather than the "wet Sahara" as a bridge. It is almost certain that humans and horses co-existed in North America.

The earliest known domestication of the horse was central Asia around 3500 BC.

There is no evidence of horse domestication in North America pre-Columbus. That said, in that time period, any saddles or associated riding gear would have been made of cloth or furs, which would not have survived that long (the oldest known cloth or leather implements come from Egyptian pyramids, which are virtually ideal conditions for preservation of these, and even then they are barely intact). We also don't have any evidence of structures that might have been used to coral horses dating from the period, which is more problematic if you want historical accuracy. Nor do we have any evidence of fossilised tracks involving horses (we do from Europe, so yes, such things do exist elsewhere).

The most likely only interaction humans had with horses in pre-Columbus North America was that humans ate horses. Some theorists suggest this was one cause of horse extinction in North America.

tldr: If you want your guys to ride horses, go wild, although its probably non-historical. But bear in mind the technology of your game world when making basic riding equipment available.

Zireael
2013-03-02, 04:49 AM
However, horse-riding Sioux of post-Columbus era are a staple of the Wild West, so you might as well go ahead and use them.

Ashtagon
2013-03-02, 05:18 AM
However, horse-riding Sioux of post-Columbus era are a staple of the Wild West, so you might as well go ahead and use them.

The OP specifically stated this is all pre-contact.

scarmiglionne4
2013-03-02, 05:45 PM
so, i intend to keep the tribes human, and am now taking suggestions (i am looking for eight at most so be advised.)

also this is one of three possibility's that i have going on, here is the world-building thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14801334#post14801334) for the other two possibilities.

I have been trying to find the book that talked about human "races" that filled roles similar to the core races Maybe someone out there knows about it.

I was thinking the differences between tribes would not be all that pronounced. I was suggesting that characters could choose from among a few very basic races that every tribe could have. I think Pathfinder pretty much ruined the concept of this with the free +2 to any ability score.

Admiral Squish
2013-03-02, 05:51 PM
I'm just gonna drop in and point out that me and a very active group of others are actually working on a complete magical world setting based in north america. With a number of new classes, and some modified versions of old classes. Anyone who's interested in a more complete take on this subject, I would point you to Vespuccia. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269334) It's really freakin' awesome.