(3.5E) Magic Fix

[Zarrgon]

A simple and obvious reason that spellcasters are so powerful is that they have unlimited, unrestricted access to every spell in the multiverse. It does not need to be this way.

Spells have two additional categories. The spells rarity and the spells complexity.

All spells start with a basic Spell Availability, then it is modified by region, societal or miscellaneous factors. Not all factors will apply to all spells. It IS possible that the wizards of the island of Lantan have the spell Water Breathing as a Rare Spell.

*Spell Availability--There are five categories of spell availability: Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very Rare and Unique. When a single spellcaster creates a spell that is known only to them, that spell is unique. Once the spellcaster shares the spell with a small number of others (less then five) the spell becomes Very Rare. Once the spell is known to over twenty spellcasters, it becomes Rare. An Uncommon spell is known to roughly half of the spellcasters in the world. And a common spell is known to almost everyone.

*Regional Rarity-Where a spellcaster is has an effect on how rare a spell will be to casters. Water Breathing is often a Common spell in any coastal port city, but will be very rare in a desert. A region is not necessarily a political boundary, all of the cities of several coastal kingdoms will often share the same spell rarities. A region must have intelligent spellcasting beings.

*Societal Rarity-The society of a region has an effect on spell rarity. Most good societies frown upon or even outlaw necromancy magic, making such magic rare. A very militaristic society full of battle mages will have combative spells very common.


*Knowing a spell-Not every spellcaster knows every spell. In order to know about a spell a character must roll a Knowledge(Arcana) check. This can only be done once per caster level, per spell, and if failed the character must wait until the next level to try again. A spellcaster must roll 10 plus the spell level to know about a common spell, 15 for a uncommon spell, 20 for a rare spell and 25 for a very rare spell. A unique spell can not be known by this method. This roll represents the continuous extermination, research, and communication with spellcasting beings and others. As such the single check represents several weeks of game time. This means that the roll must be unmodified, except for continuous effects that would have been active the whole time. A stone of good luck will modify this check, but a spell with a duration of less then thirty days will not.

Note that simply having knowledge of a spell does not give the spellcaster that spell. It must be gained in other ways.

A spellcaster can still learn about a spells existence from other ways, such as a knowledge(history) check or a tale or a story or another character. But only a successful knowledge(arcana) check gives a spellcaster the proper information to truly know the spell. Should a character hear about a spell by other means, such as from a bard's story, they must still make the knowledge(arcana) check to get the spell details.

Example:The player wishes for the wizard character of Verna to know the spell, shroud of flame. As an uncommon spell they must roll a 20 knowledge(arcana) to both know of the spells existence and know the basics of the magic needed for the spell. Should Verna join the brotherhood of the true flame, she maybe told of the existence of the spell, should of flame, but will still need to make the knowledge(arcana) roll to get the basic ideas down.

*Spell complexity--There are five categories of spell complexity: Simple, Easy, Difficult, Hard and Impossible. A simple spell is a basic fire and forget type spell, where the caster tosses a spell out there with no effort or control. A easy spell takes a slight amount of effort and control. A difficult spell takes a fair amount of effort and control. Hard is even more then that, and impossible is almost near impossible.

In order for a spellcaster to be able to use a spell, they need to understand it. This is a Spellcraft roll. A spellcaster must roll 10 plus the spell level to know about a simple spell, 15 for a easy spell, 20 for a difficult spell, 25 for a hard spell and 30 for an impossible spell. A character can only attempt to know a spell once per level. Again, single check represents several weeks of game time. This means that the roll must be unmodified, except for continuous effects that would have been active the whole time. A stone of good luck will modify this check, but a spell with a duration of less then thirty days will not.

A character can attempt to understand a spell anytime they encounter the spell in written spell formula, such as a scroll or a spellbook. They can still only attempt this once per spell and only one time at each character level.

*Gaining spells when leveling up: When a character levels up, they gain spells as per their class. But first a character must know a spell exists and have made a successful knowledge Arcana roll to know the spell. Once a character knows a spell they may add it to their spells known as per the normal rules of their class. But to cast the spell, they must first understand it by making a successful Spellcraft check. If the character fails to understand the workings of the spell, it can still be taken as one of the character's picks, they simply can't cast it. As soon as the character gains another level of experience they can attempt to understand the spell again.


Example:David's character, Elrod the Wizard, gains enough experience to become 5th level. As per the wizard class feature(PH pg.57) gains two spells of any level he can cast. The first spell David picks is Dispel Magic. This spell is well known to all users of magic, so the DM rules that Elrod already has the common knowledge of the spell. Next David must roll to see if Elrod knows the magical basics of the spell. The DM sets Dispel Magic as a common spell, giving it a To Know DC for the Knowledge Arcana of 13(10 for common spell plus 3 for the spell level). David rolls an 11 with a +12 from ranks and other modifiers that last at least a month. With a total of 23, Elrod knows the magical details of Dispel Magic. Next David must roll to see if Elrod understands the spell. The DM has ruled Dispel Magic is a difficult spell as it deals with the fundamentals of magic. This makes the Spellcraft roll to know the spell 23(20 for a difficult spell plus 3 for the spell level). David rolls a 15 with a +12 from ranks another other modifiers that last a month. With a total of 27, Elrod understands Dispel Magic and can add it to his spellbook and cast it. For his second choice, David picks the spell, False Life. The Dm has ruled this is a rare spell, putting it's To Know DC at 22. David rolls a 5 with a +12 for a total of 17. So Elrod does not know about this spell at all.

The system works exactly the same for divine spellcasters, except they roll Knowledge(Religion) to know a spell. And Divine casters have the the ultimate authority of a deity, that can make a spell whatever availability or complexity they wish.


[/B]FAQ[/B]

Woah, this system looks like a lot of work. It is, in some ways. The DM needs to assign a spell rarity and complexity for each spell in the game. And that is a lot of spells. But a single DM need not do all 1000+ spells in one day. Most groups won't have more then a couple spellcasters, so the DM only needs to decide on a couple spells to start. then as the characters gain levels, they only need to do a couple spells per level.

How should a DM decide spell rarity and complexity? Well, complexity is the easy one. Obliviously as spell that manipulates time and space, alters matter or effects fundamental forces is more complex then a spell that shines light like a torch. Rarity is more of an individual DM's call. A Dm can make a spell as rare as they wish for their campaign.

What is to stop a DM from simply making all spells a player wants very rare and impossible? Nothing. But A DM could also make rocks fall on a character can kill them.

How does spell level effect complexity? Are higher level spells automatically more complex then lower level ones? No, not necessarily. You need to go spell by spell. Polar Ray, for example, is 8th level, but it's an Easy spell. It's an instantaneous point and shoot spell. On the other hand, Alter Self is only 2nd level, but is a Hard spell.

How does spell level effect rarity? Are higher level spells automatically more rare then lower level ones? No, not necessarily. While a high level spell is more rare in the sense that there would be less spellcasters that could cast it, that is not what spell rarity measures. Spell rarity measures how rare the spell is within the spellcasting community. And it does not really take into effect the number of spellcasters.

What if a character fails their rolls to understand a spell? Is it not unfair to deny the character spells they can use as they level up? As any spellcaster can gain spells in ways other then leveling up, the system is fair. Should a character try for a Very Rare Impossible spell, they they are less likely to succeed then if they picked a Common Easy spell. A character should take this into account.

But it's not fair that a spellcaster might have a spell they want, but be unable to use it as they don't understand it? It's possible that might happen, but it's hardly unfair. The system scales with levels. So eventually a higher level character should be able to get even a Rare Hard low level spell.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I like this idea in principle ... although I'm not sure this will "fix" magic in 3.5.

What you're proposing will only normally effect wizards and bards - remember that Sorcerers gain spells by force of will, not research; similarly Clerics and Druids are granted spells by a higher power, not through research.
Of course, with re-fluffing, you could make the proposal stick for those classes: for example, you could say that divine casters need to learn the rite for their spells, and that Sorcerers need to learn and internalise their spells.

Anyway, that is not the main concern regarding this as a "fix": limiting access to spells does not deal with the balance issues between the Angel Summoner and the BMX Bandit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw).
Generally, even a limited selection of spells is likely to be far better than mundane skills. It's generally agreed that Sorcerer is not weaker than a Fighter, and the Sorcerer has one of the most limited spell selections (in terms of spells known) in the core rules.

All that aside, I really do like the idea of setting difficulties for finding and learning new spells. Could you provide some more examples of Spell Availability? It'd help to see which spells you think should be generally rare, and which should be common.

[Wargamer]

"Force of Will" is a terrible justification for a class that relies on Charisma. :smalltongue:

But seriously, Sorcerers can be balanced in this by forcing them to learn spells the way Wizards do. Here's a hypothetical:

Wizard A levels up to 5th level. He does not gain any spells from levelling up, because he has not had any opportunity to expand his spellbook. However, he does now have access to 3rd level spells, so if he were to discover such a spell he could cast it.

Sorceror A levels up to 6th level. He gains access to 3rd level spells, but because he has made no effort whatsoever to research spells he wants, the DM randomly assigns them to him based on how his vaguely understood powers seem to form themselves.

Wizard B and Sorcerer B both level up at the same time (to 5th and 6th respectively). Wizard B has in his spellbook two third level spells and can now cast them. Sorcerer B has been allowed to study Wizard B's spellbook, and so has enough knowledge of those spells to claim them as his own.


for Divine casters you can balance it as follows: you pray in the morning, and your God / Goddess gives you what magic they feel you require / deserve.

[Zman]

I like the idea, but feel implementation is a bit tricky. I don't feel it will fix any imbalances, but limiting spell selection can curb power to some degree as having the versatility and magic bullet for every situation becomes more difficult.

I would suggest using a simple spell fix as well, fixing those most often abused or overpowered spells. You can look at my Minor Magic fix in my Homebrew signature for ideas.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

There's a fairly large problem with this system; spellcraft is modified via intelligence and thus wizards have a significant bonus over all other casters.


Take an 8th level wizard vs 8th level cleric or sorceror for example. The wizard's intelligence is, say, 18 base +2 racial +2 levels +4 enhancement = 26. The cleric and sorceror's intelligence is a fairly average 12.

With maxed spellcraft, the wizard has a spellcraft of +19, +22 with a skill focus. The other classes have a +12, +15 with a skill focus. Thus the wizard may learn spells far more easily than anyone else, and practically learn his magic automatically because he'll never fail on his spellcraft roll.

[Zarrgon]

What you're proposing will only normally effect wizards and bards - remember that Sorcerers gain spells by force of will, not research; similarly Clerics and Druids are granted spells by a higher power, not through research.

Yes, the whole idea is to change the problem where every character knows about and can have every spell in the universe. A sorcerer character would still need to roll to even know about a spell. This is a change from where the sorcerer character can read the D&D rule books and look for spells. And it's the same for divine casters too.




Generally, even a limited selection of spells is likely to be far better than mundane skills. It's generally agreed that Sorcerer is not weaker than a Fighter, and the Sorcerer has one of the most limited spell selections (in terms of spells known) in the core rules.

Making the exotic, powerful spells rare has quite and impact on a spellcaster. And even more so, a character might have a spell, but not be able to use it.




All that aside, I really do like the idea of setting difficulties for finding and learning new spells. Could you provide some more examples of Spell Availability? It'd help to see which spells you think should be generally rare, and which should be common.

In general, most direct and easy spells are common: fireball, magic missile, shield, mage armor. Spells useful to everyone, like mount are common.

Uncommon gets into more specialized effects. And rare even more so. In most good places black necromancy spells would be rare, with gray ones uncommon. Water breating is common in Waterdeep, but rare in Mardibar. Shape stone or metal is common in Mardibar, but rare in Waterdeep.

Spell Availability has a lot to do with the region your in. You should never make a spell common for the whole world.

[Grod_The_Giant]

But seriously, Sorcerers can be balanced in this by forcing them to learn spells the way Wizards do. Here's a hypothetical:
Oh, no. Oh god no. :smalleek: Having the DM arbitrarily assign spells is both a massive amount of extra work for him, and likely to cause huge slowdowns (at best) or screaming rows (at worst) when players are handed the lists and start arguing. And they will argue, don't get me wrong. And they will have every right to, because this is the DM taking control of their characters.



Back to the OP, I kind of like the idea, but... I don't think this implementation is that useful. Particularly the nebulous idea of "spell complexity;" it basically comes down to the DM saying "yes, you can find that spell" or "no, you can't have it."

For something like this, you need significantly more codification. A table or two, related spell level, duration, school/subschool, and what have, so that players and DMs alike can get a good idea of what the DC will be at a glance.

But the above also works best for wizards, where it is logical and in-game consistent. It makes less sense for sorcerers, who by fluff are developing magic innately. For sorcs, I'd recommend sitting down with the player and figuring out thematic rules which would then apply across all levels. Ditto for favored souls. For Clerics, thematic limits based on the pantheon is workable. Druids... force druids to use the Shapeshift ACF from the PBH2 and their most broken tricks are gone.

Ultimately, though... magic and casters can still trample over things if the players want them to. The best solution is to have a gentleman's agreement that casters won't break the game, and that non-casters will use late-system/homebrew classes that can function at a higher level than a fighter.

[Zarrgon]

Back to the OP, I kind of like the idea, but... I don't think this implementation is that useful. Particularly the nebulous idea of "spell complexity;" it basically comes down to the DM saying "yes, you can find that spell" or "no, you can't have it."

Well, as I said this does depend on the DM. But then the whole game does. Sure the DM could say ''oh all the cool spells the players like are Ultra Rare''. But then the DM could just have rocks fall and kill all the characters too....







But the above also works best for wizards, where it is logical and in-game consistent. It makes less sense for sorcerers, who by fluff are developing magic innately. For sorcs, I'd recommend sitting down with the player and figuring out thematic rules which would then apply across all levels. Ditto for favored souls. For Clerics, thematic limits based on the pantheon is workable. Druids... force druids to use the Shapeshift ACF from the PBH2 and their most broken tricks are gone.

Why does everyone seem to think that sorcerers getting spells is all special and different? What am I missing? When a player with a sorcerer character goes up a level, they just pick a spell or two and say ''my character has this spell now. Exactly the same way a wizard character does. You can say a wizard ''does research'' and a sorcerer ''just wills spells into existence'', but that is just fluff. Having the sorcerer character not even know a spell exists works just fine: they can't ''will'' what they don't know exists.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Well, as I said this does depend on the DM. But then the whole game does. Sure the DM could say ''oh all the cool spells the players like are Ultra Rare''. But then the DM could just have rocks fall and kill all the characters too....
True. But what I meant was that a system this vague is less a system than it is DM fiat. I support the idea, but I'd like concrete guidelines to determine the rarity of a spell, not just "how I/the DM feels today."


Why does everyone seem to think that sorcerers getting spells is all special and different? What am I missing? When a player with a sorcerer character goes up a level, they just pick a spell or two and say ''my character has this spell now. Exactly the same way a wizard character does. You can say a wizard ''does research'' and a sorcerer ''just wills spells into existence'', but that is just fluff. Having the sorcerer character not even know a spell exists works just fine: they can't ''will'' what they don't know exists.
The idea, or at least an idea of a sorcerer, is that their magic is entirely inborn; it wells up within them, and they have no idea what it might be. They can absolutely wind up with spells that they didn't know existed, because they don't know where the spells came from. They didn't "will them into existence," they woke up this morning and realized they couldn't scratch their nose without turning into a bugbear. The player picks spells from a list as part of a metagame contrivance to give him control over his character, but the character does no such thing.