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View Full Version : Deceiver Prestige Class (3.5) !HELP!



Roblin Gogue
2013-03-06, 10:44 PM
So here is my first attempt at a homebrew. No flavor text as of yet. I think it's a bit broken, but so are many PrCs. Thoughts and possible fixes are much appreciated.

Deceiver(new name needed) Prestige Class

Requirements:
-Sense Motive 6 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks
- 3 Illusion/Divination Spells
- Able To Cast 2nd Level Arcane Spells
- Player must have personally complained to their DM about Sendingís 25 word cut-off. (to be replaced with better [fun] entry requirement)

Hit Die: d4

Class Skills:Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int).

2+Int skill points per level.

{table=head]Lvl|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special

1|0|0|0|2|AC Bonus
2|1|0|0|3|+1 lvl spell-casting class
3|2|1|1|3|Feel The Vibes
4|3|1|1|4|+1 lvl spell-casting class, Telepathy
5|3|1|1|4|Mind Ravage[/table]


AC Bonus: A Deceiver can look inside an opponentís mind and anticipate their next move. He gains +1 to AC against single target. This bonus changes to +2 at 3rd, and +3 at 5th. This ability functions like the Dodge feat.

Feel The Vibes: When passing within 45 feet of a creature/individual with intent to harm the Deceiver, he gets a sense motive check against DC 12+ creature/individualís Wis score. If the Deceiver succeeds on this check, he becomes aware of the presence, but not the creature/individualís location. Any effect that blocks alignment detection blocks this ability.

Telepathy: a Deceiver can send voiced messages into otherís consciousnesses. This action can be performed as often as desired. A will save with DC 10 + Caster level + Int/Cha modifier (whichever is higher) will block messages for one hour times how much the save was beaten by. If target is hostile to caster, the range is 1/4 mile. Otherwise the range is 1 mile + 1/2 mile/deceiver level.

Mind Ravage: 20 foot range, uses up one of the Deceiverís spells, which determines damage. i.e. substituting Mirror Image, a 2nd lvl spell, Mind Ravage will do 2d6 damage + 1 damage per character level.If 4th level, 4d6+ character level. If Mind Ravage deals damage that would knock the target unconscious/kill it, the caster may converse with the soul of the target instantaneously for what would be a 5-minute interrogation. The target cannot resist the interrogation except with successful will save (DC 20 + caster level + Int/Cha modifier) and must answer all questions truthfully. No time passes during the interrogation.

Frathe
2013-03-08, 12:31 AM
Changes:
-d6 to d4
-4+int to 2+int
-Telepathy: Hostile range 1/4th mile, neutral+ range 1 mile + 1/2/deceiver lvl
-Added "Any effect that blocks alignment detection blocks this ability" to FTVs.
-Looking for (fun) better entry req. than Sending complaint.You might want to edit those changes into the original post.

Agreed you could use a better requirement; I don't think the current requirement is going to cut it for people who are strict about mechanics.

I'm not sure what this class's theme is. It's called the "Deceiver", but it doesn't appear to receive any powers related to deception. Its powers instead are about sensing motives/reading minds/interrogation. The name doesn't seem to go with that--it isn't a deceiver, it sees through deceptions. The class skills reinforce this impression--they're all about reading things or spellcasting; none of them are things related to deception like Disguise or Forgery.

With how this forum is, people really care about formatting, and might even be more likely to review homebrew with nice formatting. With this in mind, I've provided you with a table (quote me to get the formatting):

{table=head]Lvl|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special

1|0|0|0|2|AC Bonus
2|1|0|0|3|+1 lvl spell-casting class
3|2|1|1|3|Feel The Vibes
4|3|1|1|4|+1 lvl spell-casting class, Telepathy
5|3|1|1|4|Mind Ravage[/table]

Roblin Gogue
2013-03-08, 10:27 AM
Ok I did. Thanks.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2013-03-08, 01:37 PM
So here is my first attempt at a homebrew. No flavor text as of yet. I think it's a bit broken, but so are many PrCs. Thoughts and possible fixes are much appreciated.

First things first: Welcome to homebrewing! Always good to see new faces creating new things. :smallbiggrin:

Secondly, your class is definitely not broken. Just getting that out of the way at the start. :smalltongue:

Thirdly, your username makes me chuckle. :smallsmile:

That said, let's take a look into it!


No flavor text as of yet.

Oddly, this is a bit of an issue. Without flavor, it's a little hard to tell what you want the class to represent. When we know what it represents and what the class abilities are supposed to accomplish/feel like, we can really bite into the class and see if it delivers on that goal. Still, we can at least judge rough balance without that information.


Requirements:
-Sense Motive 6 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks
- 3 Illusion/Divination Spells
- Able To Cast 2nd Level Arcane Spells


I'm cutting the last requirement, as it's clearly a joke (:smallbiggrin:). We're looking at a startlingly low entry level here: you can hit this class at level 4. Not a bad thing, certainly, but I figured it was worth mentioning. The only outlier is Sense Motive, which is effectively limiting the level 4 entry to the Beguiler (I believe he's the only Arcane caster who has Sense Motive, aside from the Bard).


Class Skills:Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int).

This skill list is worryingly small. Someone with a +4 Intelligence modifier is maxing out all the class skills. I'd include Sense Motive on here (it's a requirement to enter, and yet it's not on the skill list?), as well as possibly Bluff. If it's Wizard-based, I'd keep the Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) entry as well.

In fact, given the theme (whether it's deceiver or mind-reader), I might mimic the Bard or Beguiler's skill list instead of the Wizard's.



AC Bonus: A Deceiver can look inside an opponentís mind and anticipate their next move. He gains +1 to AC against single target. This bonus changes to +2 at 3rd, and +3 at 5th. This ability functions like the Dodge feat.

Alright. Not exciting, but it's slightly useful. Definitely not worth the loss of a caster level though. I'd expect to get a caster level increase with this ability if I was taking this PrC.


Feel The Vibes: When passing within 45 feet of a creature/individual with intent to harm the Deceiver, he gets a sense motive check against DC 12+ creature/individualís Wis score. If the Deceiver succeeds on this check, he becomes aware of the presence, but not the creature/individualís location. Any effect that blocks alignment detection blocks this ability.

The DC is oddly calculated, and low enough that the standard Deceiver will be unlikely to fail as he increases in level, but failure will be quite likely when he first gets the ability. This is because skill checks rapidly begin to surpass ability scores: an early check might be something like +8 or +9 Sense Motive vs a DC of 12 + 16, whereas a 20th level check could easily be something like +35 Sense Motive vs a DC of 12 + 24. See the scaling issue? The first is almost impossible to hit, the second almost impossible to fail.

Maybe have this be more static: make the creature save to avoid detection (this has the added bonus of not making the player of the Deceiver roll a die whenever there's a threat around, and/or prevents the DM from having to constantly make the Deceiver roll fake checks to throw him off). Set the save to be a Will save with a DC of (10 + 1/2 Character Level + the Deceiver's Wisdom modifier). You get a nice scaling across levels, reduce the meta-gaming possibility of the Deceiver knowing exactly when he rolls against an enemy (even if he fails the roll, the player is aware he had to roll), and the ability functions a bit smoother than before.

I might also add that this is a mind-affecting ability, since I'm not sure the Deceiver would be able to notice the intent of things like non-sentient undead or constructs.

Note: this is my favorite ability of the class, no questions asked. I also think you could increase the range to 50-75 feet. 45ft seems a bit low.



Telepathy: a Deceiver can send voiced messages into otherís consciousnesses. This action can be performed as often as desired. A will save with DC 10 + Caster level + Int/Cha modifier (whichever is higher) will block messages for one hour times how much the save was beaten by. If target is hostile to caster, the range is 1/4 mile. Otherwise the range is 1 mile + 1/2 mile/deceiver level.

The range on this is a little crazy. Typical telepathy range in D&D is 100ft, so I'd probably make this ability give no more than 150-200ft at most. I'd also cut the Will save portion, as telepathy is a standard ability in D&D, and it doesn't allow for a saving throw. No reason to reinvent the wheel here.

A note to save DCs: I'd recommend picking one ability and sticking with it whenever possible: only a few abilities in the game use "whichever is higher" for calculating save DCs. Further, the abilities this class gets (telepathy and Mind Ravage) seem very Charisma-based to me, especially with the "Deceiver" flavor.


Mind Ravage: 20 foot range, uses up one of the Deceiverís spells, which determines damage. i.e. substituting Mirror Image, a 2nd lvl spell, Mind Ravage will do 2d6 damage + 1 damage per character level.If 4th level, 4d6+ character level. If Mind Ravage deals damage that would knock the target unconscious/kill it, the caster may converse with the soul of the target instantaneously for what would be a 5-minute interrogation. The target cannot resist the interrogation except with successful will save (DC 20 + caster level + Int/Cha modifier) and must answer all questions truthfully. No time passes during the interrogation.

This is definitely the least useful ability here. This amount of damage is incredibly easy to surpass with a spell of the level you'd be expending, and the ability is thus effectively useless unless you manage to time it exactly right to kill or incapacitate the creature you're targeting. Since there's no reliable way to tell a creature's remaining hit point total, this ability is effectively reduced to guesswork.

The bit you get if you do guess right is very useful, but it's really only reliable on commoners who you'll basically always knock out (since there is no save involved with the damage). I'm also extremely concerned about that save: DC 20 + Caster Level + modifier is DC 29 + modifier at the earliest level you can get it (level 9), when your strongest saving throw is a +6 base. See the issue? (10 + 1/2 level + modifier) is the standard for a reason, and I'd recommend embracing it here. PrCs often use (10 + PrC level + modifier), but you can't really get away with that in an early-entry 5-level PrC without balancing things.


*****

Ultimately, I think this is a very weak class, power-wise. You give up three caster levels for an AC boost, telepathy, an (admittedly cool) danger-detector with a fairly short range, and a capstone that is either huge amounts of free information (against opponents you know you can one-shot) or almost impossible to make worthwhile (against opponents you can't one-shot).

The save DC issues I can easily chalk up to this being your first foray into homebrew: no big deal, and very easy to fix. The rest of it...well, simply put, this class probably needs either more caster levels, or more meat to its abilities. I'd also love to see the flavor blurb that should go with the class: knowing exactly what sort of class you're trying to make will really help anyone reviewing it to suggest fixes or new abilities that will help drive that theme home.

Conclusion: Not a bad start. You've got some stuff here you can revise and edit, and, once you have a bit more direction for the class, I think you can turn this into something fairly awesome. You've undershot the power level a bit, but that's easy to fix. The biggest issue is that you need to determine what this class is supposed to be doing, and then really sell us on that: currently Feel the Vibes is the only ability I'm really sold on, and it seems to shout "This class is a mind-reader and guy who sees through deception." Is that what you were going for?

Roblin Gogue
2013-03-08, 03:15 PM
Haha wow that's a lot to think about but I really appreciate the input. Yeah this class occurred to me as a justicar-type supplement to a bard originally, but it kind of just spiraled out of control. I only recently picked up D&D, and I've been playing for maybe 2 months. Again, thanks for the input and I will try to fix it when I have time.

Roblin Gogue
2013-03-08, 08:03 PM
Deceiver 1.3
Changes:
Added d6 HD (from d4) and skills (from Wiz copy-paste) to make worthwhile for mages
added Spontaneous Illusion
changed all DCs.
ramped up ravage damage to xd10, but made save 10+caster level+Int/Cha mod.
changed Telepathy to Violent Telepathy.



Deceiver

Flavor text...ascended bard/sorc....wizard seeking versatility....insane guy who developed powers. Something like that.


Requirements:
-Nonlawful
- 3 Illusion/Divination Spells
- Able To Cast 2nd Level Arcane Spells

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills:The Deceiverís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
4+Int skill points per level.

{table=head]Lvl|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special

1|0|0|0|2|AC Bonus, Spontaneous Illusion
2|1|0|0|3|+1 lvl spell-casting class
3|2|1|1|3|Feel The Vibes
4|3|1|1|4|+1 lvl spell-casting class, Violent Telepathy
5|3|1|1|4|Mind Ravage[/table]

AC Bonus: A Deceiver can look inside an opponentís mind and anticipate their next move. He gains +1 to AC against single target. This bonus becomes +2 at 3rd, and +3 at 5th. This ability functions like the Dodge feat.

Spontaneous Illusion: Like a Druidís Spontaneous Casting (Summon Natureís Ally), a Deceiver can deplete a spell slot to cast any illusion spell of the depleted spellís level or lower. For Example, a Deceiver can cast Major Image or Invisibility Sphere, both 3rd level illusion spells, by sacrificing any 3rd level spell or above.

Feel The Vibes: When passing within 60 feet of a creature/individual with intent to harm the Deceiver, the creature/individual makes a will save of DC (10 + 1/2 Character Level + the Deceiver's Int/Cha modifier). If the save fails, the Deceiver becomes aware of the presence, but not the creature/individualís location. Any effect that blocks alignment detection blocks this ability.

Violent Telepathy: a Deceiver can send/force voiced messages into otherís consciousnesses. This action can be performed caster level times a day. A will save with DC (10 + Caster level + Int/Cha modifier) will block messages for one hour times how much the save was beaten by. Each message is limited to 30 words and 2 images. If target is hostile to caster, the range is 1/2 mile. Otherwise the range is 1 mile + 1/2 mile/deceiver level.

Mind Ravage: 20 foot range, uses up one of the Deceiverís spells, which determines damage. i.e. substituting Mirror Image, a 2nd lvl spell, Mind Ravage will do 2d10 damage + 1 damage per character level. If a 4th level spell is used, 4d10+ character level. If Mind Ravage deals damage that would knock the target unconscious/kill it, the caster may converse with the soul of the target instantaneously for what would be a 5-minute interrogation. The target can resist the interrogation with successful will save (DC 10+ caster level + Int/Cha modifier) and must answer all questions truthfully.