Balrog, LotR [PEACH]

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Balrog, LotR CR 21
http://www.council-of-elrond.com/castdb/balrog/balrog3.jpg

Large Outsider (Maia, Extraplanar, Evil, Lawful)
Init +9; Senses lowlight vision, darkvision 240ft, true seeing, Perception +33
Aura Terror (200 ft, DC 23)
DEFENSE
AC 41, touch 18, flat-footed 32 (+9 Dex, +23 natural, –1 size)
hp 370 (20d10+260) Fort +26, Ref +17, Will +24 (+4 vs spells), DR 15/good and mithril, SR 31, Immune: Fire/Acid/Form Altering, Resist: Electricity/Cold 10, Regeneration 1/divine, Fast Healing 9
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., Size 10 ft., Reach 10 ft. (20 with reach weapons)
Melee Fiery Sword +35/+35/+31/+26/+21 (2d8+21, +1d6 fire +2d6 vs good, 19-20/3x)
Special Abilities celestial judgement, summon weapon, incapacitating strike
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 20th)
Always on—deathward, empowered fireshield (1d8+23), true seeing
At will—bestow greater curse (DC 26), greater dispel magic, polymorph any object (DC 27), greater scrying (DC 26), Unholy aura (DC 27), power word: stun, mass paralysis (DC 28), magic circle against good, thanatopic enervation, darkburst (as per sunburst except darkness spell, DC 27), wall of fire
2/day—Shapechange
1/year—wish
STATISTICS
Str 36, Dex 28, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 30, Cha 28
Base Atk +20; CMB +34 (+38 grapple); CMD 53
Feats Blind Fight, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Improved Natural Armor 3x
Skills Appraise +17, Bluff +32, Diplomacy +32, Disguise +27, Fly +30, Intimidate +32, Knowledge (arcana) +28, Knowledge (planes) +32, Knowledge (religion) +32, Perception +33, Sense Motive +33, Spellcraft +32, Stealth +28, Survival +22, Use Magic Device +29
Languages Infernal, Draconic, Common, Celestial, Abyssal
Equipment: Double.

Aura of Darkness (Su)
A Balrog radiates darkness (similar to the spell) out to a radius of 60 feet. All mundane artificial light sources (lamps, torches and the like) are immediately smothered, their illumination reduced to 1 ft. All magical light sources and light spells have their effects halved. Creatures other than the Balrog within its Aura of Darkness are affected as if by a Symbol of Vulnerability or a Symbol of Pain (Balrog's choice).
Natural, broad daylight disperses the Aura of Darkness.

Call Weapon (Su)
A Balrog can create a large weapon he's proficient with of +5 enhancement or less as a standard action. The weapon disperses if it leaves the Balrog's hand but can be recreated by the Balrog if so desired. Once created, the weapon functions as a normal magic item, including being subject to damage and destruction. If destroyed, a Balrog must wait 1 hour before recreating it. Balrogs can create up to 2 weapons at a time and usually create +2 flaming unholy weapons.

Crippling Strike (Ex)
injury; save Fort DC 32; frequency 1/round for 10 rounds; effect 1d6 Con damage; cure 3 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Destructive Counterspell (Su)
A Balrog can use its Greater Dispel Magic to counterspell as an immediate action once per round. A successful counterspell results in a 20-ft burst of destructive energy dealing 2d6 damage per spell level countered.

Maia Traits (Cs)
Balrog are Maia, lesser divinities of Arda. They are not subject to antimagic and count as unique creatures for all intents and purposes. As a standard action, they can discorporate and reappear in a location of their choice 1d4 rounds later, as if by greater teleport. This discoproration is the Balrog abandoning its assumed physical form and taking another elsewhere - but Balrog that do so lose access to their spell-like abilities for 24 hours (until they acclimate to their new forms)
Balrog are not subject to being slain by mortals; unless confronted by divine attacks (that overcome their regeneration) they discoprorate if reduced to less than 0 HP.

[hymer]

I admire your courage and industry. Before going further, what's the intention here? To make a Balrog as close as possible to the one in the book? The one in the movie? Or trying to bridge the gap between LotR and D&D? Something else entirely? For that matter, is this PF or 3.5?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Seeing as I mostly used the Pathfinder PF stats for it, it is better suited for Pathfinder - though it would translate to 3.5 too.

It is very close to the one in the books in that anyone less than demigods and epic heroes wouldn't be able to take it on, it is a Maia with its magic emphasizing shapechange, curses, mental attacks, spiritual attacks and generally the less flashy stuff, but it also is capable of working in a DnD setting.


Just wait to see your PCs' faces when they run into the goblin kingdom killing goblins, orcs and giants left and right and suddenly a thing comes out of the shadows cloaked in an aura of darkness that saps their strength, can crush their spirit despite their protective magics (thanatopic enervation, bestow greater curse), paralyzes their fighters with terror, violently unravels the magic of their spells and beats them up with a big flaming stick.

[hymer]

Generally I like it a lot, especially the 'create weapon' thing, which is an interesting interpretation. Some thoughts:

I don't know PF very well. So I'll have to ask how Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange works there. In 3.5 these are two of the more abusable spells.

Maybe some addition to the fear aura, which can causes people to cower instead of flee, as I recall Gimli and Legolas doing at first. Or is that what the stun and paralysis is for?

The 'always on' fire shield can be extinguished if he's immersed in water, and apparently it doesn't let him do the chill shield version.

I find it somewhat amusing his Diplomacy is so high, and a little strange that he's got WF: Greatsword. Maybe there should be an optional skill, and no or an open WF?

Wall of Fire, I can't help thinking he wouldn't have had the Orcs build that big fore if he could just have made on himself? And he could've placed one behind the party to keep them from escaping.

Maia Traits are elegant, but obviously he's in a different position in these stats than the Balrogs of Middle-earth. But how do you account for Ecthelion and Glorfindel not having Divine attacks?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The best thing about PF magic is their polymorphing fix; such spells are a) far less versatile, b) give fixed bonuses and only copy a fixed list of abilities and c) there are different spells better suited to assuming forms of specific types rather than a couple of spells being open-ended.
So PAO and Shapechange are no longer abusive like they used to be.

Will fix the fireshield. This is actually something I pointed out in the Balrog-discussion thread myself. :smallredface:

Yes, stun and paralysis are there specifically to replicate how Gimli and Legolas react to it.

For the Wall of Fire, the party had Gandalf; I'm assuming the Balrog tried to make a Wall of Fire during their duel but Gandalf (esp. with his Ring of Fire) countered/dispelled it thus he had to resort to the nonmagical (and not dispellable) fire its minions started.


Ecthelion and Glorfindel had a) artifact weapons and b) at least one of them actually paid attention during class in Valinor. :smalltongue:
Ditto Feanor and anyone else who ever slew a Balrog.

[Frozen_Feet]

It should be noted that within context of Middle-Earth, all elves are essentially divine beings. This is shown when Glorfindel confronts the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings. Elves of D&D are shoddy chinese plastic copies in comparison.

I'm not sure Balrogs should have shapechange. As I recall, like Sauron, Balrogs became corrupted when they pledged themselves under the Shadow and lost their ability to take whatever shape they wished.

[Razanir]

It should be noted that within context of Middle-Earth, all elves are essentially divine beings. This is shown when Glorfindel confronts the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings. Elves of D&D are shoddy chinese plastic copies in comparison.

I'm not sure Balrogs should have shapechange. As I recall, like Sauron, Balrogs became corrupted when they pledged themselves under the Shadow and lost their ability to take whatever shape they wished.

Assuming you're just referring to them pledging loyalty to Melkor Morgoth, Sauron transformed after that. He was a werewolf in the Lay of Beren and Lúthien

[Frozen_Feet]

Sauron lost his ability to "take a fair form" much later, during the fall of Numenor. Melkor lost his ability to shapechange, I don't know what the occasion was, but after that he became known as Morgoth. I recall Balrogs losing their ability to change shape much earlier.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

They didn't so much lose such abilites by corruption as they became so ensnared by their own evil that they could no longer assume beautiful forms. A being has to appreciate and understand beauty before it can make a beautiful body for itself, after all.
(sort of how wizards have to be familiar with creatures they shapechange into - except everyone always forgets about that limitation)

[dspeyer]

It should be noted that within context of Middle-Earth, all elves are essentially divine beings. This is shown when Glorfindel confronts the Nazgul in Lord of the Rings.

That's only elves who "have dwelt in the Blessed Realm" (i.e. Valinor).

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Hence my "paid attention at class in Valinor" comment

[The-Mage-King]

I have but one thing to say of this.


Why doesn't it have a fly speed? Balrogs have wings, dammit!












:smalltongue:

[Belingorm]

i think the Balrog should be faster since they describe as having fast land speed. How about making the Balrog have a land speed of 80 ft.
Where does say that the Balrog can fly?. LotR Balrog having wings is a much debated subject. I am of the opinion that the Balrog did not have wings at all. I think the wings mentioned in the following are just shadows the mimicking wings and are not actually wings at all.
"His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings."

"...suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..

Arguments Against Balrog Wings
Ted Nasmith depicts Gothmog without wings.

On the other hand, the explicit reference to "wings of shadow" leaves open the interpretation that Balrogs had no physical wings. Balrogs were never exactly described as flying in any of Tolkien's works, including the "winged speed" language quoted above. Furthermore, at least two Balrogs fell to their ruin, apparently wingless:

"Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
― Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 23, "Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin"
"I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place, and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin."
― The Two Towers, Chapter 5, "The White Rider"

Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company."

[bobthe6th]

Melkor lost his ability to shapechange, I don't know what the occasion was, but after that he became known as Morgoth.

After stabbing some trees and running off to the east in dark warlord form I think. Why he used a spear rather then, say an axe, was never really explained.

[Frathe]

I have but one thing to say of this.


Why doesn't it have a fly speed? Balrogs have wings, dammit!I would think one argument against it being able to fly is the way that one balrog fell after that bridge was taken out.

[TuggyNE]

I would think one argument against it being able to fly is the way that one balrog fell after that bridge was taken out.

Someone missed the emote of sarcasm at the bottom? :smallconfused:

[Frozen_Feet]

After stabbing some trees and running off to the east in dark warlord form I think. Why he used a spear rather then, say an axe, was never really explained.

It is. He wasn't there to fell the trees - he made a puncture through which Ungoliant could drink the sap of the trees. This choice bit him in the behind soon after when the divinely empowered and still hungry eldritch spider abomination from the void decided she wanted dessert. It took a whole lot of Balrogs to rescue Melkor.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

And think how many pages of angst would have been avoided if she'd actually eaten him. :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Some think the strongest objection is the simplest: that taking references like the second statement seriously mean that all lines must be taken literally. For example, shortly before the Balrog's appearance, "Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company."

Not to mention Gandalf's "Fly, you fools!" instruction to the Fellowship :smallamused:

[Belial_the_Leveler]

He meant the "fly" figuratively. The actual spell he cast on them was "Haste". :smalltongue:

[TuggyNE]

He meant the "fly" figuratively. The actual spell he cast on them was "Haste". :smalltongue:

Quickened haste. :smalltongue:

[Razanir]

Quickened haste. :smalltongue:

I wouldn't think so. I stand by the Alexandrian's view that LotR is an E6 campaign. Haste would have been available (3rd level, CL 5th) but quickened would have been too high (+4, +8)

[Kish]

Recursion! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14646412&postcount=41)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I wouldn't think so. I stand by the Alexandrian's view that LotR is an E6 campaign. Haste would have been available (3rd level, CL 5th) but quickened would have been too high.
Strongly disagree here. Boromir killed 20-something CR 1 enemies in one fight that had a lot more than 20 of them in it (see Orog) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/orcs/orog) all while wearing some nonmagical chainmail and wielding a bastard sword and a heavy shield. He's also an unaugmented, unbuffed human. How many times did they hit him? 8 times? 10 times? More?
I doubt he could have taken 10d8+40 damage (av 85) as a 6th lvl guy; he'd need to have constitution of 24 + toughness + good HP rolls, which is really, really unlikely. Also, a 6th lvl fighter deals 1d8+8 at +13 attack with a longsword - it is highly unlikely he could kill 20 enemies before falling. And Boromir is the weakest of the non-hobbit members of the Fellowship.


I see the Fellowship as;
Hobbits: starting at lvl 1 then gaining during the adventure
Boromir: 8th lvl human fighter, 16 str/dex, 18 con.
Gimli: 6th lvl fgtr/2nd lvl barb dwarf, 14 str/dex, 22 con.
Legolas: 6th lvl scout/2nd lvl pal elf, 14 str/con, 22 dex.
Aragorn: 9th lvl ranger/2nd lvl pal numenorian, 18 str/con, 20 dex.
Gandalf: Maia CR 21. Usually funtions as evoker 9th/fghtr 4th via divine edict but assumes full power against greater danger or when unobserved. (matched the Nine, beat the Balrog, mentally challenges Sauron more than once)

[arguskos]

Recursion! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14646412&postcount=41)
Fun science fact: The Balrog is actually called such in the 1st-3rd printings of the OD&D rulebook (also, Ents and Hobbits)! It's not even that they were in an adventure, they were in the rules! Yeah, Tolkien's estate wasn't super pleased with all that. Even better, in the Chainmail era, Balrogs were also available as Balrogs (Hobbits too, don't know about Ents).

I'm lucky enough to have acquired one of those rulebooks (also, a 4th printing, after the change to Balor, Treant, and Halfling), so I've visually confirmed it as being true.

Sorry, I've got nothing useful to say on-topic, just wanted to post that 'cause I thought it was neat. :smallredface:

[Frathe]

Someone missed the emote of sarcasm at the bottom? :smallconfused:Since when is tongue-stick-out a sarcasm emote? Sarcasm is usually blue text.

Edit: Besides, I was mostly responding to Belingorm.