[3.P] True Ferocity - A Simple Orc and Half-Orc Fix

[Larkas]

I'm preparing myself to DM in a campaign where orcs will feature rather heavily. As such, half-orcs will be somewhat common, and I wanted to at least make the race attractive to the players. Pathfinder has taken a step in the right direction regarding it, but I think it didn't go far enough to my tastes. Furthermore, I don't like the "+2 to any attribute" thing for them, even if it makes sense for humans and half-elves. I tinkered a bit with the race and this is what I came out with. I decided to edit full-blooded orcs a little bit too, since I was changing the one thing that links orcs to half-orcs crunch-wise. The changes are in green, and there are notes on how to adapt these to a pure 3.5 environment inside the spoilers. Please, tell me what you think!


Half-Orc Racial Traits

+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: Half-orcs are strong and perceptive, but somewhat crude.

Medium: Half-orcs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Normal Speed: Half-orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.

Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Intimidating: Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate skill checks due to their fearsome nature.

Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.

Orc Ferocity: Once per day, a half-orc can fly into a frenzy as if using the rage (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/rage.html#_rage) spell. This is an extraordinary ability usable as a free action, has a range of personal, a target of you and a duration in rounds equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round), but is otherwise identical to the aforementioned spell. You can end this effect at any time as a free action.

Weapon Familiarity: Half-orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.

Languages: Half-orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Half-orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following: Abyssal, Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, and Goblin.

Note: In a pure 3.5 campaign, change the ability adjustments to "+2 Strength, -2 Charisma".


Orc Racial Traits

+4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: Orcs are brutal and savage.

Medium: Orcs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.

Normal Speed: Orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.

Darkvision: Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in areas of bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Orc Ferocity: Once per day, an orc can fly into a frenzy as if using the rage (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/rage.html#_rage) spell. This is an extraordinary ability usable as a free action, has a range of personal, a target of you and a duration in rounds equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round), but is otherwise identical to the aforementioned spell. You can end this effect at any time as a free action.

Weapon Familiarity: Orcs are proficient with greataxes and falchions and treat any weapon with the word “orc” in its name as a martial weapon.

Languages: Orcs begin play speaking Common and Orc. Orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from among the following bonus languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon.

Note: In a pure 3.5 campaign, use the original ability adjustments (+4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma).

[Wolfer]

What was wrong with the original Orc Ferocity?

[Larkas]

It is a very weak version of an arguably weak feat. The orc's version was a bit stronger, but RAW, you will be dead in 10 rounds or less, even if you survive the fight.

[Sylthia]

It's a matter of personal preference, but I'd give half orcs +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int. It sets them apart from the rest of the core races and leans toward a physical class. All the other races can give a caster a plus to two good stats, but martial classes are SOL.

[Larkas]

It's a matter of personal preference, but I'd give half orcs +2 Str +2 Con -2 Int. It sets them apart from the rest of the core races and leans toward a physical class. All the other races can give a caster a plus to two good stats, but martial classes are SOL.

Hmmm, it is not a bad idea per se, but it goes against PF's race design philosophy. Wouldn't break anything, however. Myself, I don't like -2 Int, as it penalizes skills, but if you give him +2 Con it kinda makes sense. It would almost scream "caster race!", and even though I think half-orcs should have that option, I don't think they should be the best at it. Anyways, I digress! :smallredface: Thanks for the input!

[Sylthia]

Hmmm, it is not a bad idea per se, but it goes against PF's race design philosophy. Wouldn't break anything, however. Myself, I don't like -2 Int, as it penalizes skills, but if you give him +2 Con it kinda makes sense. It would almost scream "caster race!", and even though I think half-orcs should have that option, I don't think they should be the best at it. Anyways, I digress! :smallredface: Thanks for the input!

Yeah, the -2 Int could be swapped for -2 Cha, but I don't want to make Half Orcs the automatic default for martial classes.

[Larkas]

Yeah, the -2 Int could be swapped for -2 Cha, but I don't want to make Half Orcs the automatic default for martial classes.

Ehm, when I said "caster", I meant "initiator". :smallredface:

Anyways, at +2 Str, +2 Con, they would already be the default martial class, regardless of the penalty! :smallbiggrin: I think that is the rationale behind the PF philosophy: if you give two bonus to the same kind of ability, the race becomes too strong for something (as in "default choice", not "broken strong").

[Draz74]

Agreed: penalizing INT always seemed like a betrayal of the human side of a Half-Orc's heritage, since Humans effectively have a bonus to INT as far as skill points are concerned.

If Half-Orcs have a penalty to any stat, it should be CHA.

Changing the WIS bonus to CON is sensible, though, depending on how Druid-friendly you want half-orcs to be in your setting. (Or Cleric-friendly, for that matter.)

[Larkas]

Agreed: penalizing INT always seemed like a betrayal of the human side of a Half-Orc's heritage, since Humans effectively have a bonus to INT as far as skill points are concerned.

If Half-Orcs have a penalty to any stat, it should be CHA.

My thoughts exactly! Thanks for articulating them better than me :smallredface:


Changing the WIS bonus to CON is sensible, though, depending on how Druid-friendly you want half-orcs to be in your setting. (Or Cleric-friendly, for that matter.)

You see, I always thought of fullblooded Orcs as the paragon of humanoid savagery. I can understand them having a penalty in Int and Cha, but not Wis. Not only does that ability have to do to acute senses, which a savage creature ought to have, but it makes no sense for a society of those individuals not to have Rangers in addition to Barbarians, not to mention some Adepts and the odd Druid. As you can see, I lifted that penalty (Though not on the 3.5 version... I actually quite like the PF races because of that, you can represent deeper, more interesting races with two bonuses and a penalty, or a greater bonus and several penalties), even though that lies somewhat outside the ARG guidelines (+4/-2,-2 is stronger than Greater Paragon, but weaker than Advanced).

Following that line of thought, I think that half-orcs having +2 Wis is more... Organic than +2 Con. I dunno. When I think about it, half-orcs seem like orcs that actually have the wits to use the orcs' senses. Half-orc druids make a lot of sense to me. Furthermore, +2 Wis also enable Cleric builds (Gruumsh might actually look favorably at his spawns' descendants if they seem more sensible, and Pelor might seek a champion among those risen from the pits!), not to mention Serenity Paladins (Don't know about you, but I think that concept is awesome!).

Anyways, as always, YMMV. :smallwink:

[Draz74]

Of course, I could also rant about how a CHA penalty doesn't make sense either, since CHA is more about "force of personality" than about being likable or social. And I am perfectly fine with orcs being good Warlocks or Intimidate-users or what have you. But down that road lies madness, since I have plenty of other problems with the traditional six ability scores. :smallwink:

[Larkas]

Of course, I could also rant about how a CHA penalty doesn't make sense either, since CHA is more about "force of personality" than about being likable or social. And I am perfectly fine with orcs being good Warlocks or Intimidate-users or what have you. But down that road lies madness, since I have plenty of other problems with the traditional six ability scores. :smallwink:

Incidentally, I was reading the abilities' descriptions just yesterday, and Charisma stands for all that and more, including physical appearance! But I agree, it is better as "force of personality"... Regardless, as I said, YMMV. :smallsmile:

Anyways, the ability scores are just part of the change! What do you think about the new Orc Ferocity?

[Draz74]

Anyways, the ability scores are just part of the change! What do you think about the new Orc Ferocity?

Well, I'm not a big Pathfinder player, or a big fan of daily abilities in general. But it certainly looks less yawn-worthy than the standard Ferocity feature, and certainly shouldn't be overpowered either.

[Larkas]

Well, I'm not a big Pathfinder player, or a big fan of daily abilities in general. But it certainly looks less yawn-worthy than the standard Ferocity feature, and certainly shouldn't be overpowered either.

Great! It's what I was aiming for. :smallsmile: I thought about giving X uses per 4 levels, or (Con modifier) uses, but then it would be a bit strong. I wanted to give them the possibility to be Barbarian-lite even when they take other classes, and the opportunity to use Rage powers even if they don't want to/can't use proper Barbarian rage if they choose that class. I'm glad you think it's okay. :smallredface:

[Ir0npanda]

I registered because this is a really good change to races I am fond of. I don't play DnD but I always play Orcs or Half-Orcs in any RPG where that is an option. My main in Warcraft since 2006 is an Orc Warrior (though I am not playing since the newest expansion)

Anyway, I just think you should make the activated racial rage ability slightly improve barbarian rage in case the Orc or Half Orc is a barbarian (instead of the current effect -- which should stay as is for any other class)

Furthermore, there should be a temporary mechanical alignment shift to CHAOS for non-Barbarian Orcs/Half Orcs which lasts until the Orc Ferocity ends, affecting the character and his attacks. This would affect spells and abilities which depend on LAW-CHAOS alignment. For instance, a LAWFUL or NEUTRAL Orc fighter using this racial ability would register as CHAOTIC aligned for the duration, allowing him to bypass X/chaos Damage Reduction, but also becoming vulnerable to spells/abilities which affect CHAOS targets. This does not interfere with his own class mechanics, however, nor would it cause an Orc paladin to Fall from grace.

This represents the fact that the Orc/Half Orc is VOLUNTARILY allowing his chaotic blood heritage to come out (unlike the Rage spell which is only result of being a spell target).


Orc Ferocity: Once per day, a half-orc can fly into a frenzy as if using the Rage spell. This is an extraordinary ability usable as a free action, has a range of personal, a target of you and a duration in rounds equal to your Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). For the duration, the character and his attacks are treated as chaotic for the purposes of external spells or abilities which interact with alignment. This temporary alignment shift does not affect the character's own class abilities nor does it cause Paladin characters to lose their Paladin powers (or any other penalty resulting from a similar class restriction on alignment). It is otherwise identical to the aforementioned Rage spell. You can end this effect at any time as a free action.

If the Orc or Half-Orc possesses Barbarian class levels, Orc Ferocity instead increases the duration of his Barbarian rage class ability by 2 rounds. At 11th Barbarian level, the bonus to rage duration increases to 3 rounds to coincide with Greater Rage. At 20th Barbarian level, the bonus to rage duration increases to 4 rounds, to coincide with Mighty Rage.

An Orc or Half Orc Barbarian who has lost his ability to rage by becoming Lawfully aligned loses the Barbarian version of Orc Ferocity and receives the standard version above. If the Barbarian becomes Neutral or Chaotic aligned again, he regains the Barbarian version (so on and so forth)

[Larkas]

I actually considered something along the very same lines regarding Ferocity and actual Barbarian Rage! The thing is, I thought long and hard and decided that it makes sense for a Barbarian to still have Ferocity and Rage. You see, Ferocity offers smaller bonuses, but when using it, the Orc will (a) not be fatigued afterwards, ever and (b) still be able to use his/hers Rage powers! So it is actually a different, new way to use the available class's abilities! IMHO, and of course YMMV, but that is an elegant solution. :smallsmile:

About the alignment "soft change", that is a very interesting take on the subject. Hmmm... I only see two problems. It introduces a small complication to the game, and it could offer a way to bypass a type of energy reduction a little difficult to bypass at level 1. I'll sleep on it. I think that, even if this is indeed too complicated for a race per se, it might make the cut for a possible future Orc Paragon class. :smallsmile:

Lastly, I'm really happy that you liked the changes! I also quite like Orcs (though weirdly I've never seriously played one in WoW since vanilla), but didn't like any incarnation of them in D&D3/PF. These are, I hope, flavorful at the very least. :smallbiggrin:

[JusticeZero]

Well, i'm always hesitant to use -2 Charisma on anything but a "slave race". Low Charisma communicates docility and meekness, which are not traits I associate with orcish warriors.

[Ir0npanda]

Well, i'm always hesitant to use -2 Charisma on anything but a "slave race". Low Charisma communicates docility and meekness, which are not traits I associate with orcish warriors.


Orcs generally appear brutish even of they are a very refined and educated individual Orc. They are generally presented in most fantasy settings as having a lesser racial propensity for leadership traits and a lower willingness to cooperate, both of which are modelled by charisma in DnD.

In my perfect D20 world, full Orcs would have (relative to humans)

+4 STR -2 DEX +2 CON -3 INT +1 WIS -2CHA

On the physical side I see orcs as being hardy, resulting in CON boost, but tending to resort to brute force rather than finesse = huge STR and low DEX

On the mental side I see orcs as less imaginitive, intelligent, and charismatic, but at the same time slightly wiser than humans, as in less likely to sell their souls to demon for temporary power or something like that. In fact I see humans in general as more intelligent than most races but very unwise on average

A half orc would just halve all these bonuses and penalties with the exception of CHA

+2 STR -1 DEX +1 CON -1 INT +1 WIS -2 CHA

[Andion Isurand]

To help half-orcs out in 3.5... I currently give them extra skill points like a human, along with "any" favored class.

They still lack somewhat, but not as much.


+2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Medium
30 ft speed
+2 racial bonus on Survival and Intimidate checks.
4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
Darkvision 60 ft.
Favored Class: Any

[Larkas]

Well, i'm always hesitant to use -2 Charisma on anything but a "slave race". Low Charisma communicates docility and meekness, which are not traits I associate with orcish warriors.

Not necessarily. According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#charismaCha):


Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

Specifically, I equate the Orc's penalty to Charisma as a lack of both persuasiveness, personal magnetism and ability to lead. Of course, they can be very scary and "persuasive", which is modeled by the Half-Orc's +2 to Intimidate (which is something I'm considering giving to full-blooded orcs too, actually), but that's pretty much it. Orcs are pictured as very tribish in feel, and very disorganized at that. They take everything they want by force, not by diplomacy. Of course, the odd leader might rise from time to time, unifying the tribes and posing a real danger to the more civilized lands, but those are exceptional individuals - just like adventurers! A-2 to Charisma isn't a very important penalty when you want to build a persuasive leader, after all. :smallsmile:

[Zaq]

What would you say about changing the CHA penalty to a DEX penalty? I tend to think of orcs and half-orcs as big and hulking, which to me implies a certain clumsiness, or a lower DEX than someone without such bulky muscles. If you don't want them to have a penalty to CHA, DEX seems like a reasonable alternative. (Plus, if you like playing up the stereotype of the heedless berserker charging into battle with no regard for their own physical safety, a lower DEX, and thus a lower AC, makes sense to me. Not all orcs will fit that stereotype, but it could partially explain where the stereotype comes from.)

Any penalty comes with some flavor of problems (not to mention some problems of flavor), but it's worth throwing it out there.

[Empedocles]

I like this a lot! I disagree with Zaq - the charisma penalty is more appropriate then a dexterity penalty. I don't think of half-orcs as uncoordinated...

Also, because I'm selfish, I'm going to drop my orc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245362) and half-orc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238705) fixes here. Give them a look if you feel like it, let me know what you think as it compares to your own.

[Larkas]

What would you say about changing the CHA penalty to a DEX penalty? I tend to think of orcs and half-orcs as big and hulking, which to me implies a certain clumsiness, or a lower DEX than someone without such bulky muscles. If you don't want them to have a penalty to CHA, DEX seems like a reasonable alternative. (Plus, if you like playing up the stereotype of the heedless berserker charging into battle with no regard for their own physical safety, a lower DEX, and thus a lower AC, makes sense to me. Not all orcs will fit that stereotype, but it could partially explain where the stereotype comes from.)

Any penalty comes with some flavor of problems (not to mention some problems of flavor), but it's worth throwing it out there.

That could indeed work! It's not the flavour I was going for, but balance-wise, it fits just as well as the current incarnation. I wouldn't use it as a base race, but it could certainly work as a sub race. What's more, the 3.5 environment sorely needs a +2 Str, -2 Dex race! Do we have any of those in 1st party?


I like this a lot! I disagree with Zaq - the charisma penalty is more appropriate then a dexterity penalty. I don't think of half-orcs as uncoordinated...

Also, because I'm selfish, I'm going to drop my orc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245362) and half-orc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238705) fixes here. Give them a look if you feel like it, let me know what you think as it compares to your own.

Are you kidding me? I've liked your Orc and Orc-hybrids from the moment I saw them! It's true! Look at post #72 onwards on the Sangavido thread, and post #4 at the Orc thread! I had to double check them to confirm it, though, you were known as Vilpich at the time, right? Anyways, I made this simple fixes just to make otherwise very subpar race choices into something at least enjoyable. It is meant for people who want to keep the flavour mostly intact, but a more favourable crunch. Put under a different light, though, and even though I didn't imagine so at the time, these fixes might also serve as stepping stones for your complete overhauls! For those that want to try something a bit different, but who aren't yet ready to take the leap towards your remakes. Anyways, they were meant to be simple yet effective, and IMHO, I think that objective was more or less achieved. :smallsmile:

[Empedocles]

For those that want to try something a bit different, but who aren't yet ready to take the leap towards your remakes. Anyways, they were meant to be simple yet effective, and IMHO, I think that objective was more or less achieved. :smallsmile:

I'd agree! You succeeded very well here :smallbiggrin:

Don't warforged have +2 strength, -2 dexterity? Or is that constitution... :smallconfused: can't recall off the top of my head.

[Deepbluediver]

I've skimmed most of the thread, and I'm going to start off with my usual speil: Why do we need half-orcs at all? Are they vital to your setting for some reason?

I've never really liked the way ANY of the half-races in D&D where set up. Even the more supposedly monstrous or weird races are most often just funny-color humans or humans as viewed through a fun house mirror.

So sorry, but right off that bat I'm not fond of half-orcs. Why not just let players play full-orcs, what would be wrong with that?


But to try and keep on topic, your versions seem fine, mechanically. I don't know if I like the +2 to Wisdom out of nowhere, but thats a flavor issue I guess. Plus, half-orcs get a bonus to intimidate that full-orcs don't? Why?

Regarding the stats, I know there has been a lot of talk about this already, but for me boosting boosting Wisdom or Constitution just doesn't really feel very Orcish to me.
The combination that I think I like the most is one I don't believe any other race has- Strength and Dexterity. Dwarves can be tough and Elves can be agile, but to me a being both strong and nimble would really give the orcs (or half orcs) a reason to be feared in combat.

To take it one step further, would you consider bumping their base land speed up to 40 ft? I know that for everything else it's normally 30 ft for a medium sized humanoid, but thats one of those things that I don't really think needs to be so standarized. Allowing some races to be faster or slower than normal would be boost to their racial characteristics, and help them feel more significantly different from humans. Thats my 2cp anyhow.

[Empedocles]

I've skimmed most of the thread, and I'm going to start off with my usual speil: Why do we need half-orcs at all? Are they vital to your setting for some reason?

I've never really liked the way ANY of the half-races in D&D where set up. Even the more supposedly monstrous or weird races are most often just funny-color humans or humans as viewed through a fun house mirror.

So sorry, but right off that bat I'm not fond of half-orcs. Why not just let players play full-orcs, what would be wrong with that?


But to try and keep on topic, your versions seem fine, mechanically. I don't know if I like the +2 to Wisdom out of nowhere, but thats a flavor is
sue I guess. Plus, half-orcs get a bonus to intimidate that full-orcs don't? Why?


Regarding the stats, I know there has been a lot of talk about this already, but for me boosting boosting Wisdom or Constitution just doesn't really feel very Orcish to me.
The combination that I think I like the most is one I don't believe any other race has- Strength and Dexterity. Dwarves can be tough and Elves can be agile, but to me a being both strong and nimble would really give the orcs (or half orcs) a reason to be feared in combat.

To take it one step further, would you consider bumping their base land speed up to 40 ft? I know that for everything else it's normally 30 ft for a medium sized humanoid, but thats one of those things that I don't really think needs to be so standarized. Allowing some races to be faster or slower than normal would be boost to their racial characteristics, and help them feel more significantly different from humans. Thats my 2cp anyhow.

For the record there're a few 3.5 races that get 40 foot base land speed. The one I can think of off the top of my head is the nezumi, but Im pretty sure there're others.

[JusticeZero]

They're good for having a discriminated against minority in ghettoes in your city without having to befriend the full version.

[Zaq]

That could indeed work! It's not the flavour I was going for, but balance-wise, it fits just as well as the current incarnation. I wouldn't use it as a base race, but it could certainly work as a sub race. What's more, the 3.5 environment sorely needs a +2 Str, -2 Dex race! Do we have any of those in 1st party?



There's the darfellan from It's Wet Outside, but they have other problems (namely a base speed of 20', eww). A more generalized one wouldn't be amiss.

[gr8artist]

No intimidate bonus for full-blooded orcs?
Personally, I think your ferocity fix is probably a step in the wrong direction. You basically remove a racial feature from barbarians, who would want to use their own rage instead.
Why not combine the two? While under the effects of their orcish rage or a similar effect *cough-barbarian-rage-cough* they gain the benefits of the diehard feat (or whichever one it is that keeps you conscious at negative health).
And if you look at the ARG and Paizo's race builder rules, you can see that there's an option for +2+2/-2 (both bonuses to the same type of ability score) as well as the normal +2-2/+2 (bonuses split between mental and physical ability scores) and that it's only a point or two more than normal.

[Larkas]

I hope you realize this thread is more than a year old. I'm not even sure I'd still do stuff the way I did here, even if I do believe this is still better than the stock races. I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my abilities, seeing as I'm not at all invested in these fixes anymore (the campaign I made them for never really took off). Luckily, most of your points were already addressed upthread.


No intimidate bonus for full-blooded orcs?


I equate the Orc's penalty to Charisma as a lack of both persuasiveness, personal magnetism and ability to lead. Of course, they can be very scary and "persuasive", which is modeled by the Half-Orc's +2 to Intimidate (which is something I'm considering giving to full-blooded orcs too, actually), but that's pretty much it.

So yeah, I was considering giving the big guys the bonus too, but I've never got around to actually doing it.


Personally, I think your ferocity fix is probably a step in the wrong direction. You basically remove a racial feature from barbarians, who would want to use their own rage instead.

(Regarding the old ferocity)

It is a very weak version of an arguably weak feat. The orc's version was a bit stronger, but RAW, you will be dead in 10 rounds or less, even if you survive the fight.

(Regarding the new ferocity)

The thing is, I thought long and hard and decided that it makes sense for a Barbarian to still have Ferocity and Rage. You see, Ferocity offers smaller bonuses, but when using it, the Orc will (a) not be fatigued afterwards, ever and (b) still be able to use his/hers Rage powers! So it is actually a different, new way to use the available class's abilities!


Why not combine the two? While under the effects of their orcish rage or a similar effect *cough-barbarian-rage-cough* they gain the benefits of the diehard feat (or whichever one it is that keeps you conscious at negative health).

That could work. I think, however, that it pigeonholes orcs/half-orcs even harder into barbarian, which is something I tried avoiding. I wanted ferocity to be useful to any class, even if it was more useful to barbarians. It's still pretty weak, regardless.


And if you look at the ARG and Paizo's race builder rules, you can see that there's an option for +2+2/-2 (both bonuses to the same type of ability score) as well as the normal +2-2/+2 (bonuses split between mental and physical ability scores) and that it's only a point or two more than normal.

Indeed. I still prefer the standard distribution, though.

Anyways, I hope that answered everything.

[gr8artist]

I... Have no idea how I found this, then. Anyway, glad it all worked out.