Prehistoric Earth life monster thread

[Ashtagon]

No, not just "dinosaurs" or "Ice Age mammals". I talking in terms of a major project, that is also reasonably faithful to actual biology, and covers not just to two main "cool" eras, but everything else, classifying pretty much every major organism grouping (those large enough to be reasonably statable in D&D terms), and noting environment not just by temperature/terrain, but also historical location and time period (down to the nearest aeon).

Why? Because I've always wanted to run a time-travelling adventure at least part-set in the Devonian.

Is this too big a task?

[hamishspence]

Maybe- but the lists of fauna would have to be fairly short.

[zabbarot]

It sounds like a fun project. The only problem I can see you running into is how similar some of these animals might be. Especially if you try to stay true to biology. What would you say are the mechanical differences between an Andrewsarchus and a dire wolf, for example? The marine life might be the most fun, since the source is surprisingly lacking in fish.

Why the Devonian though? Are endless tropics and large arthropods just your thing?

Oh on second thought the similarity could really help as you move from era to era, so you could stat up a whole evolutionary line by making small changes between related species. Which works since they don't all exist at the same time.

[hamishspence]

You could have a generic "bipedal scaly predator" template, and customise it to represent practically anything from a proto-croc to a T-rex.

Same with many of the other animal types.

[Ashtagon]

To a certain extent, some species can just be noted as "This looks [funky description here]. Use the stats for [core monster here].

For example:

Gogonopsids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgonopsia) were a groups or mammal-like reptiles (or reptile-like mammals, or therapsids, or...). They were about the size of a large dog with a similar gait, and a head slightly reminiscent of a dragon or kobold (but without any "knobs"). They had prominent canine teeth. They thrived during the Permian period. Use the statistics for a dog.

Except probably, you'd need to add advancement by HD to allow for the larger species of that group, and probably a few points of natural armour.

[Admiral Squish]

I am intrigued by this thread, and shall continue to watch with interest.

[Ashtagon]

Notes on work in progress....

The "typical" heights and weights follow a formula (weight in lb; height in ft)!

Weight = (height ^ 3) / 1.024

or inversely:

Height = (weight x 1.024) ^ (1/3)

Further, the minimum HD value is directly proportional to height in the standard listings, such that we can say that the HD for any random critter is equal to height/4 (substitute length for quadrupeds). Since these are meant to be minimums, let's say that this represents herbivores and other creatures of that size that are relatively inoffensive; this includes tool users such as humans, as we have evolved without intrinsic personal weapons. Carnivores should typically have twice these numbers for HD.

Where real-world height/length and weight are both known, use whichever value would result in the largest HD and size class when manipulating the numbers.

For reference, this means T. Rex comes out as a 14 HD creature.

For cinematic purposes, creatures belonging to the dominant forms of life may have their HD increased by an additional 50%. This makes T. Rex a 21 HD creature. The SRD rates T. Rex as 18 HD.

From the above numbers, we can determine the size class, which gives us the typical damage values for various natural attacks. This may be varied for certain creatures that have disproportionately large or small natural attack body parts.


PeriodDominant LifeMYAO2CO2Temperature °CSpecial Air Rules[td]
[td]Ediacaran(no macroscopic life)635-54140%1600%unknownVery Low Oxygen[td]
[td]CambrianInvertebrates541-48563%1600%21 °CLow Oxygen
OrdovicianInvertebrates485-44368%1500%16°CLow Oxygen
SilurianFish443-41970%1600%17 °CLow Oxygen
DevonianFish, Amphibians419-35975%800%20 °CLow Oxygen
CarboniferousAmphibians, Insects359-299163%300%14 °COxygen-Enriched
PermianTherapsids299-252115%300%16 °C—
TriassicDinosaurs252-20180%600%17 °CLow Oxygen
JurassicDinosaurs201-145130%700%16.5 °C—
CretaceousDinosaurs145-66150%600%18 °COxygen-Enriched
PaleogeneMammals66-23130%200%18 °C—
NeogeneMammals23-2½108%100%14 °C—
QuaternaryMammals2½-0104%100%14 °C—



{table="class: grid"}
{tr}{td}Period{/td}{td}Dominant Life{/td}{td}MYA{/td}{td}O2{/td}{td}CO2{/td}{td}Temperature °C{/td}{td}Special Air Rules{tr}{td}
{tr}{td}Ediacaran{/td}{td}(no macroscopic life){/td}{td}635-541{/td}{td}40%{/td}{td}1600%{/td}{td}unknown{/td}{td}Very Low Oxygen{tr}{td}
{tr}{td}Cambrian{/td}{td}Invertebrates{/td}{td}541-485{/td}{td}63%{/td}{td}1600%{/td}{td}21 °C{/td}{td}Low Oxygen{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Ordovician{/td}{td}Invertebrates{/td}{td}485-443{/td}{td}68%{/td}{td}1500%{/td}{td}16°C{/td}{td}Low Oxygen{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Silurian{/td}{td}Fish{/td}{td}443-419{/td}{td}70%{/td}{td}1600%{/td}{td}17 °C{/td}{td}Low Oxygen{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Devonian{/td}{td}Fish, Amphibians{/td}{td}419-359{/td}{td}75%{/td}{td}800%{/td}{td}20 °C{/td}{td}Low Oxygen{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Carboniferous{/td}{td}Amphibians, Insects{/td}{td}359-299{/td}{td}163%{/td}{td}300%{/td}{td}14 °C{/td}{td}Oxygen-Enriched{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Permian{/td}{td}Therapsids{/td}{td}299-252{/td}{td}115%{/td}{td}300%{/td}{td}16 °C{/td}{td}—{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Triassic{/td}{td}Dinosaurs{/td}{td}252-201{/td}{td}80%{/td}{td}600%{/td}{td}17 °C{/td}{td}Low Oxygen{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Jurassic{/td}{td}Dinosaurs{/td}{td}201-145{/td}{td}130%{/td}{td}700%{/td}{td}16.5 °C{/td}{td}—{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Cretaceous{/td}{td}Dinosaurs{/td}{td}145-66{/td}{td}150%{/td}{td}600%{/td}{td}18 °C{/td}{td}Oxygen-Enriched{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Paleogene{/td}{td}Mammals{/td}{td}66-23{/td}{td}130%{/td}{td}200%{/td}{td}18 °C{/td}{td}—{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Neogene{/td}{td}Mammals{/td}{td}23-2½{/td}{td}108%{/td}{td}100%{/td}{td}14 °C{/td}{td}—{/td}{/tr}
{tr}{td}Quaternary{/td}{td}Mammals{/td}{td}2½-0{/td}{td}104%{/td}{td}100%{/td}{td}14 °C{/td}{td}—{/td}{/tr}
{/table}

MYA indicates millions of years ago.

Atmospheric O2 and CO2 levels are relative to present day. Early Earth atmospheres had incredibly high CO2 levels. These were gradually locked away into fossils (and eventually, coal and other fossil fuels).

The Carboniferous period had an unusually O2-rich atmosphere, which allowed for insects to reach the largest sizes they ever did historically.

Plant life first colonised land during the Silurian period. Prior, and during most of that, land terrain will generally be bare rock punctuated by desert and mud. "Soil" would not yet have formed, without meaningful quantities of dead plant matter to compost and lock the debris in place.

The Cambrian period was dominated by trilobites, the largest of which (Isotelus) reached 28 inches in length, and 3 inches in height. Nothing living in this period poses a meaningful threat to humans, although the atmospheric composition might be a danger.

[Wild Zubat]

As a newbie D&D player and an amateur paleontologist, this is relevant to my interests.

I, for one, would like to see a Teratornis or an Arthropleura statted up.

[hamishspence]

Teratornis (or maybe Argentavis) could be similar to a Dire Vulture from Sandstorm (Large avian scavenger).

Arthropleura- maybe a Large monstrous centipede, modified to represent a more herbivorous lifestyle.

[Ashtagon]

The low O2 content during some periods can best be simulated by treating the entire world as low peak mountains (see SRD: mountains (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#mountainTerrain)). D&D/d20 Modern lacks existing rules to cover high-O2 atmospheres.

Teratornis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teratornis): Large animal, 3 HD. Extant across North America, 2.5-0.01 mya. Diet included rabbit, fish, and carrion. Attack: bite.

Arthropleura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthropleura): Medium vermin, 2 HD (for largest specimens). Extant across NE North America and Scotland, 340-280 mya (Carboniferous period). Herbivore. Fossil evidence suggests it would not have had any meaningful attack forms.

[hamishspence]

Further, the minimum HD value is directly proportional to height in the standard listings, such that we can say that the HD for any random critter is equal to height/4 (substitute length for quadrupeds). Since these are meant to be minimums, let's say that this represents herbivores and other creatures of that size that are relatively inoffensive; this includes tool users such as humans, as we have evolved without intrinsic personal weapons. Carnivores should typically have twice these numbers for HD.

Where real-world height/length and weight are both known, use whichever value would result in the largest HD and size class when manipulating the numbers.

For reference, this means T. Rex comes out as a 14 HD creature.
I'm not sure how you're getting 14 HD though.

If it's being treated as a quadruped (due to its long tail and horizontal posture) - that would equate to it being 28 ft long (28/4, x2 for being a predator).
It's closer to 40 ft long (maybe smallest adults being more like 36 ft, largest being 43 ft or so).

If it's being treated like a biped- it's a lot shorter than 28 ft. 14 ft would be more like it- maybe 20, when leaning back.

[Ashtagon]

I'm not sure how you're getting 14 HD though.

If it's being treated as a quadruped (due to its long tail and horizontal posture) - that would equate to it being 28 ft long (28/4, x2 for being a predator).
It's closer to 40 ft long (maybe smallest adults being more like 36 ft, largest being 43 ft or so).

If it's being treated like a biped- it's a lot shorter than 28 ft. 14 ft would be more like it- maybe 20, when leaning back.

Good point. I was calculating based off weight, not length. Length totals 40 feet, making it 30 HD by my cinematic formula above (or 20 HD for being a carnivore).

On review, that "cinematic bonus" seems a little too large. otoh, I'm not sure to what extent tails should be included when determining D&D size classes. Ideally, I'd be looking at something like the total of "foot to hip" plus "hip to nose", but that's not usually reported. Otoh, snakes and invertebrates.

[hamishspence]

Good point. I was calculating based off weight, not length.

What's the formula for converting weight to Hit Dice?

[Ashtagon]

What's the formula for converting weight to Hit Dice?

Multistep...

1. Convert weight to effective length. Length = (weight/1.458) ^ (1/3).
2. Base HD = length/4.
3. For hunter-carnivores, double the base HD.

----

More on low O2 levels...

D&D defines two levels of altitude sickness, one at 5000 ft, and the second at 15,000 feet. These correspond to effective O2 levels of 84% and 58% respectively.

Cambrian through to Devonian, plus Triassic, should be considered "low peaks" for altitude acclimation purposes. Ediacaran should be considered "high peaks" for this purpose.

[hamishspence]

How heavy was T.rex? Even now there's a lot of debate on the subject.

The old Expert Rulebook T.Rex, and the D20 Menace Manual T.Rex, are both 20 HD- seems reasonable.

[Ashtagon]

How heavy was T.rex? Even now there's a lot of debate on the subject.

The old Expert Rulebook T.Rex, and the D20 Menace Manual T.Rex, are both 20 HD- seems reasonable.

I was working off the 7.5 US ton figure quoted in wikipedia. I believe there is a cousin of T rex that was slightly heavier.

[Wild Zubat]

At this rate of discussion, we might have a sourcebook for this in weeks!

[hamishspence]

With the blue whale being somewhat in excess of 200 short tons, you're looking at a theoretical converted length of around 84 ft (21 HD).

(The actual length was 100 ft-odd for the biggest- that produces around 25 HD.)

[Ashtagon]

Regarding atmospheric CO2 levels...

http://www.co2science.org/articles/V5/N48/EDIT.php

CO2 levels would need to be about 4000% pre-industrial levels before it would have a significant effect on human health. As the highest it has ever been in any natural Earth environment is 1600%, it's reasonable to say that CO2 has never been a factor in determining air breatheability. There may, however, have been traces of other chemicals in the early Earth atmosphere which would have been unsafe for modern life. And of course, CO2 is a greenhouse gas, which would have consequences for overall temperature down the line.

[Ashtagon]

With the blue whale being somewhat in excess of 200 short tons, you're looking at a theoretical converted length of around 84 ft (21 HD).

(The actual length was 100 ft-odd for the biggest- that produces around 25 HD.)

21 HD seems reasonable to me - the damage needed to kill a creature doesn't really scale with total body volume directly, since you don't need to get all of the creature before getting to the vitals.

Does it sound reasonable to you? Does D&D have them stated up at all?

[hamishspence]

Baleen whales advanced to Colossal size (MM) can be from 19 to 36 HD.

The smarter, magical beast, and decidedly more predatory Leviathan (MM2) has 32 HD.

[Ashtagon]

Baleen whales advanced to Colossal size (MM) can be from 19 to 36 HD.

The smarter, magical beast, and decidedly more predatory Leviathan (MM2) has 32 HD.

ok, we can probably say as a general formula that advancement allows for individuals to increase their HD by up to 1.5 times the base HD for the creature type.

[Ashtagon]

Reading around the high-O2 atmosphere issue, I'd suggest the following rule:

High Oxygen Atmosphere: Characters in high-O2 air gain a +2 bonus on checks made to sustain forced marches, long-distance swimming, running, and similar acts of exertion requiring stamina. Such atmospheres do not grant any special bonus in drowning/suffocation or high altitude situations.

In addition, fires burn more fiercely. All non-magical fire damage is increased by 50%, as if under the effect of the Empower Spell feat (except obviously, it's not magical). This does not affect damage from scalding water or radiated heat - only actual fire.

Magical fire that lasts for extended periods (such as wall of fire) is also affected as if by the Empower Spell feat, but magical fire that is instantaneous in duration (such as fireball) is not affected.

In the Early Earth, this applies to the Carboniferous and Cretaceous periods.

Low Oxygen: In some periods of Earth's history, the oxygen content was quite low, such that the oxygen content was equivalent to that on a mountain in present-day Earth.

In a low-oxygen environment, characters must succeed on a Fortitude save each hour (DC 15 +1 per previous check) or become fatigued. This fatigue lasts until the character enters an environment with a normal oxygen level. In a modern environment, this is achieved by descending to low altitude. In Early Earth environments, this will typically require magic.

Any character who spends one month in such an environment becomes acclimatised, and no longer suffers this fatigue penalty or needs to make these Fortitude saves. A character who spends two months away from such an environment is no longer acclimatised. Creatures native to the environment (historical time period) are automatically considered to be acclimatised.

In the Early Earth settings, this applies to the Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, and Triassic periods.

Very Low Oxygen Environment: This environment is hostile to normal animal (including "vermin") life. Every six hours, a character that needs oxygen must pass a Fortitude save (DC 15 +1 per previous check) or take one point of ability damage to all six ability scores. It is not possible to become acclimatised to a very low oxygen environment.

In the Early Earth settings, this applies to the Ediacaran (and earlier?) periods.

[Arcanist]

If this ever sees full completion, I'd like to use this for a Time Travel campaign :smallamused: (most likely just the environmental rules).

[Ashtagon]

If this ever sees full completion, I'd like to use this for a Time Travel campaign :smallamused: (most likely just the environmental rules).

Actually, in terms of environmental rules, it's pretty much done. High oxygen is the only new item. Low/very low oxygen is treated as high altitude (environment: mountains covers that), and the rest is standard terrain (a swamp is a swamp, whether now or in the Cretaceous).

Technically, the Ediacaran and earlier periods could benefit from more environment rules, but since there's no meaningful life back then, I'm not going to cover it in more detail.

What would be useful, however, is a meaningful description of what plant life existed in each period. For example, swamps and forests simply won't exist in the Cambrian, because plant life had not yet colonised land.

[Ashtagon]

Andrewsarchus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrewsarchus): Large animal, 6 HD. Extant across Mongolia, 45-36 mya (Paleogene). Diet was either hunter-carnivore or scavenger. The skull is 33 inches long; estimates of total body size are 11 feet snout to hip, shoulder height 6 feet, and weight between 2200-4000 lb, depending on whether it had a robust or gracile build. Attack: bite and two claws. Known only from a single skull sample.

It's likely habitat was what is now the Gobi desert; it became extinct when the formation of the Himalayas changed the climate patterns.

--------

Aside:

Looking at the atmospheric composition over time in the table I posted earlier, i notice that CO2 drops seem to be associated with plant biodiversity, while O2 drops seem to be associated with therapsid and mammal biodiversity. Therapsids are the direct ancestors of mammals (and only mammals; dinosaurs and reptiles had already diverged), and probably share similar effects on the environment.

[Ashtagon]

Is the existing capsule format I've been using for monsters sufficient, or should I switch to full statblocks?

Also, is there a particular period people would like me to focus on?

[Arcanist]

Is the existing capsule format I've been using for monsters sufficient, or should I switch to full statblocks?

Full Statblocks would be wondrous.

[Debihuman]

If you want a lot of dinosaur stats see this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9715777#post9715777


Debby

[Ashtagon]

If you want a lot of dinosaur stats see this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9715777#post9715777


Debby

As I noted earlier, I'm not just about the dinosaurs and Ice Age mammals. Those have been done so often they're almost boring. Therapsids are cool.

[hamishspence]

As I noted earlier, I'm not just about the dinosaurs and Ice Age mammals. Those have been done so often they're almost boring. Therapsids are cool.

I tried a thread like this a while back:

Statting out non-dinosaur prehistoric creatures (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127572)

it didn't get off the ground. Maybe this one will?

(My version of Dunkleosteus used the Dragon Eel as a starting point- since there is a close physical resemblance).

[Ashtagon]

My maths in some earlier posts (now edited) was wrong...

Weight = (height ^ 3) / 1.024
Height = (weight x 1.024) ^ (1/3)

Those numbers provide the best fit for converting between weight (lb) and height/length (ft).

The conversion of length/height to HD remains the same (length/4; x2 for hunter-predators).

[immiseo]

Yeah, Jurassic Park kind of fails to portray how dinosaurs really looked like. For instance, the raptors in the movie actually had feathers and weren't that large.






Australia Immigration (http://immigrationoverseas.com/Australia.aspx)

[hamishspence]

I figure that- seeing as they were using amber- some of the creatures would not have exactly corresponded to any fossil bones.

Suppose what they got was the immediate ancestor of Utahraptor? Something bigger than Deinonychus, but only a bit- and too small to be Utahraptor itself?

(Robert Bakker's Raptor Red actually comments on this in the appendix- that the people working on the movie were well aware that their dino was larger than Deinonychus- and as a result, were worried- until Utahraptor was discovered at some point during the filming- so they stopped worrying.).

The lack of feathers is a bigger issue- still- they are "genetically engineered theme park monsters" as Grant puts it in the third fim- maybe the first generation had feathers- but Henry Wu the geneticist had the feathers engineered out, so they would look more like what the tourists would expect.

[Comissar]

Interesting idea.

Just to say though, Dinosaurs weren't dominant during the Triassic, they only really started appearing towards the end of the Triassic and weren't particularly prevalent even then. Without checking, I'd say it'd be more likely that Archosaurs as a whole (the basal group to dinosaurs, crocodiles and probably turtles, among others) would be dominant, though Synapsids (mammal-like reptiles) would also be quite common.

Edit - Also, Jurassic Park is full of errors, but ultimately they're not even technically dinosaurs. They're theme park animals that are made to look like dinosaurs :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

"Genetically engineered birds" so to speak :smallamused:

[Comissar]

"Genetically engineered birds" so to speak :smallamused:

Didn't they use toads? I'm fairly sure they used toads.

"Behold, the mighty Tyrannosaurus Rex!"

*Ribbit*

[Ashtagon]

Seymouria

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Bromacker2_copy.jpg

Small Animal
Hit Die: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +3 (-1 Dex, +4 feat)
Speed: 30 ft
Armour Class: 12 (+2 natural, +1 size -1 Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: -2/-6
Attack: Bite -2 melee (1d4-2 damage)
Full Attack: Bite -2 melee (1d4-2 damage)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Scent, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +2
Abilities: Str 7 (-2), Dex 8 (-1), Con 11, Int 1 (-5), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 4 (-3)
Skills: Hide +3 (+4 size, -1 Dex)
Feats: Improved Initiative
Environment: Permian warm plains
Organisation: ?
Challenge Rating: ?
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —


"Basically, it's a giant carnivorous frog, okay?"

Seymouria was a small reptiliomorph, basal to both reptiles and therapsids (and thus birds and mammals). It reached lengths of up to two feet, placing it just within the Small size category. It had an estimated weight of 8 lb. There were other animals within its clade, but Seymouria represents the largest examples.

Fossils have been found in North America (first found in Seymour, Texas) and central Europe. Although land animals, they laid their eggs in water, so needed to live reasonably close to a water source for mating. Their larvae had gills and lived in water, similar to modern frogs. They lived on a diet of insects, small animals, and eggs.

Combat

Seymouria attacked with a single bite attack.

Scent (Ex): This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odours just as humans do familiar sights.

References

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymouria
http://tolweb.org/Seymouria/17546
http://www.scotese.com/newpage5.htm
http://www.scotese.com/lpermcli.htm

[hamishspence]

Didn't they use toads? I'm fairly sure they used toads.

Some kind of frog, anyway, was used for filling in some of the genetic "gaps".

EDIT:- Seymouria is a pretty fair example of "big land predator of the Early Permian", Inostrancevia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inostrancevia

is probably the giant of the Late Permian.

[Ashtagon]

Inostrancevia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/Inostrancevia_alexandri.JPG/640px-Inostrancevia_alexandri.JPG

Large Animal
Hit Die: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +1 (+1 Dex)
Speed: 50 ft
Armour Class: 15 (+5 natural, -1 size, +1 Dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+16
Attack: Bite +12 melee (1d8+12 damage)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (1d8+12 damage, x3 crit) and 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+6 damage)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Scent, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27 (+8), Dex 13 (+1), Con 19 (+4), Int 2 (-4), Wis 12 (+1), Cha 6 (-2)
Skills: Hide -3 (-4 size, +1 Dex)
Feats: (choose three)
Environment: Permian warm and temperate plains
Organisation: ?
Challenge Rating: ?
Alignment: Always Neutral
Advancement: 7-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —


"It looks like a cross between a kobold and a giant dog."

Inostrancevia was a therapsid (and thus birds and mammals). It was large, reaching lengths of up to 11.5 feet. It had an estimated weight of 1500 lb. There were other animals within its clade, but Inostrancevia represents the largest examples.

Fossils have been found in Siberia, although smaller related gorgonopsids existed elsewhere. They were the top predator carnivore in their environment.

Combat

Inostrancevia attacked with a bite attack and two claws.

Scent (Ex): This special quality allows a creature to detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odours just as humans do familiar sights.

References

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inostrancevia
http://www.palaeocritti.com/by-group/gorgonopsia/inostrancevia
http://www.scotese.com/newpage5.htm
http://www.scotese.com/lpermcli.htm

[hamishspence]

Change "Seymouria represents the largest examples" to "Inostrancevia represents the largest examples".

As a saber-toothed animal- do you think its bite should have some kind of bonus? Maybe x3 critical as with Frostburn's Smilodon?

[Debihuman]

As I noted earlier, I'm not just about the dinosaurs and Ice Age mammals. Those have been done so often they're almost boring. Therapsids are cool.

There was a huge thread on prehistoric animals (not just dinosaurs) on the web here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547154/Dinosaur_Menagerie?pg=1.

Warning: it's 211 pages long and contains a massive amount of material.

Debby

[Tragak]

This thread is Awesome! :smallsmile:

[Agent 451]

Now all that needs to be done is to have someone stat up the future predator and we'll be all set for a Primeval campaign... :smallsmile:

http://pnf-primeval.wikispaces.com/file/view/Future%20Predator%201.jpg/357299372/384x264/Future%20Predator%201.jpg

[hamishspence]

There was a huge thread on prehistoric animals (not just dinosaurs) on the web here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19547154/Dinosaur_Menagerie?pg=1.

Warning: it's 211 pages long and contains a massive amount of material.

Debby

There was a similar thread on EN World:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?266148-Reviewing-Revising-and-Finalizing-Prehistoric-Animals-and-Dinosaur-Ecology

and the index does list many non-dinosaurs as well.

[Yora]

I was just looking up where mammals and reptiles diverged (turns out that was even long before dinosaurs became dinosaurs) and there are some cool critters that look like straight out of Star Wars. And there are even some thatz never went anywhere evolution-wise, and don't look like any land-animal that is still around, like Cotylorhynchus (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Cotylorhynchus_scale.png).

[Ashtagon]

There's a theory that Cotylorhynchus survives today, in the form of turtles. It's a questionable theory to be sure, but the fact is that we really don't know for sure what evolved into turtles.

One issue I've noticed with many previous such projects is a tendency to be ultra-specific in what monsters to convert. For example, one thread I looked at had stats for argentinosaurus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentinosaurus). It's nice to have monster stats. But that particular monster could just as easily be written as a flavour note in an entry for Titanosaur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithostrotia). For gaming purposes, there isn't really much difference between the various members of this family, except possibly size and HD, which don't in themselves justify separate entries.

I am still working on this project, but a lot of what I'm doing for now is being done offline.

[Yora]

The evidence would be that the head looks a bit similar. But that's no basis for classification. Though I did read that nobody is really sure where turtles are in the evolutionary tree.

[hamishspence]

We can be sure they're not synapids, at least.

Most attempts to resolve the position of turtles in Reptilia place them with Diapsida- archosaurs and lepiosaurs.

[Omnicrat]

Now all that needs to be done is to have someone stat up the future predator and we'll be all set for a Primeval campaign... :smallsmile:

http://pnf-primeval.wikispaces.com/file/view/Future%20Predator%201.jpg/357299372/384x264/Future%20Predator%201.jpg

This was my first thought from seeing this thread. You would also have to stat up the one or two fictional prehistoric animals they used.

[hamishspence]

What era would you say is most in need of prehistoric animal stats?

[Ashtagon]

Update: More of a "I messed up". I went about this by trying to index every living animal more than a few inches in size. That ever lived.

In retrospect, this was very, very stupid indeed.

[hamishspence]

Might make sense to reduce it to a set of templates (sneaker, charger, climber, etc) and then have a few "sample" specimens in each.

[Baj]

During the Paleocene epoch, right after the dinosaurs went extinct but before mammals really became dominant, giant flightless birds were the apex predators in some places. Some of these birds where nearly 10 feet tall and could possibly run as fast as 30 mph. Those could definitely be fun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phorusrhacid#cite_note-7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastornis

Also, I realized it's rather isolated but Australia had some real crazy mammals after the dinosaurs were gone (sorry, I don't know the time periods on this one). Pretty much everything was a marsupial and there were some weird ones including one as big as a hippo and what's been described as a "marsupial lion." There were also ancient kangaroos that were potentially carnivorous(!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_megafauna

Check out the "Extinct" section on that article.