View Full Version : Fighter fix one trillion and one, V0.0001
Fighter Feats: Any feats which are listed as fighter only have this and their level requirements removed.
The key thing I wanted here was versatility for the fighter, fighter specific feats, and especially stuff like weapon spec really don’t fit with that imo.
Now for the new Fighter:
Class Skills
See Below
Skills Points at 1st Level: (8 + int)*4
Skills Points at Each Level: 8 + int
Hit Dice: D10
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|+1 |+2 |+2 |+2 |Body and Mind, Master of War
2nd|+2 |+3 |+3 |+3 |Bonus Feat
3rd|+3 |+3 |+3 |+3 |Positional Advantage
4th|+4 |+4 |+4 |+4 |Bonus Feat
5th|+5 |+4 |+4 |+4 |Kick
6th|+6/+3 |+5 |+5 |+5 |Bonus Feat, Improved Attacks
7th|+7/+3 |+5 |+5 |+5 |Warrior Wisdom
8th|+8/+4 |+6 |+6 |+6 |Bonus Feat
9th|+9/+4 |+6 |+6 |+6 |
10th|+10/+5 |+7 |+7 |+7 |Epic Feat Access, Bonus Feat
11th|+11/+6/+5 |+7 |+7 |+7 |Improved Kick
12th|+12/+7/+6 |+8 |+8 |+8 |Bonus Feat, Soldier On
13th|+13/+8/+6 |+8 |+8 |+8 |Free Shot
14th|+14/+9/+7 |+9 |+9 |+9 |Bonus Feat
15th|+15/+10/+7 |+9 |+9 |+9 |
16th|+16/+11/+8/+8 |+10 |+10 |+10 |Bonus Feat
17th|+17/+12/+8/+8 |+10 |+10 |+10 |
18th|+18/+13/+9/+9 |+11 |+11 |+11 |Bonus Feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+9 |+11 |+11 |+11 |
20th|+20/+15/+10/+10 |+12 |+12 |+12 |Bonus Feat
[/table]
Weapon & Armor Proficiencies: Fighters are proficient with all amour types. Shields, Tower Shields, and all Simple, Martial, and Exotic weapons.
Class Features:
Improved Abilities: A fighter gains a permanent +2 modifier to all his ability, (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) scores, in the same manner as a racial modifier.
Greater Improved Abilities: A fighter gains a permanent +2 modifier to all his ability, (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) scores, in the same manner as a racial modifier. This stacks with Improved Abilities.
Bonus Feats: Fighter gain one additional feat at 2st level, and an additional feat every 2nd level thereafter. This may be any feat he is eligible to take. When selecting feats, (Bonus or otherwise), you may ignore any ability score requirements they have and skill score requirements they have so long as the skill is one that can be used untrained.
Master of War: Whenever a fighter gains a feat, (both their starting feats and feats gained with levels, bonus feats included), they may pick 1 additional feat from each of the 4 lists below for free, provided they meet the requirements, (these are subject to the bonus feat rules as normal).
{table=head]Feat List 1|feat list 2|feat list 3 |feat list 4
Combat Expertise|Improved Shield Bash|Improved Unarmed Strike|Point Blank Shot
Improved Disarm|Power Attack|Deflect Arrows|Far Shot
Improved Feint|Cleave|Improved Grapple |Precise Shot
Improved Trip|Great Cleave|Snatch Arrows|Rapid Shot
Improved Sunder|Two Weapon Fighting|Stunning Fist|Manyshot
Combat Reflexes|Improved Two Weapon Fighting|-|Shot on the Run
Dodge|Greater Two Weapon Fighting|-|Improved Precise Shot
Mobility |Weapon Focus|-|
Spring Attack|Weapon Specialisation|-|
Improved Bull Rush|Greater Weapon Focus|-|
Quick Draw|Greater Weapon Specialisation|-|
Rapid Reload|-|-|
Two-Weapon Defence|-|-|
Weapon Finesse|-|-|
[/table]
Fighters and Skills: Fighters being the adaptable littlie things they are do not start with any class skills. Instead they choose any 8 skills of choice to be their class skills. In addition they gain ranks in non-class skills at the rate of 1 rank per skill point instead of half a rank per skill point as normal.
Fighters and Proficiencies: In addition to being proficient with all arms and armour as already noted in their profile, any weapon specific feat or effect a fighter may be subject to is now universal across all weapon types. Fighters also ignore the -4 penalty for using improvised weapons.
Improved Attacks: A fighters bonus attacks from BAB are never made at less than half his full BAB, (remember fractions are rounded down so if the result of dividing the BAB is a fractional value, the result will be rounded down).
Body and Mind: At 1st level and at every odd numbered level thereafter you increase one ability score, (Strength Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), by 2 points. However this must be the ability with the lowest ability modifier. If two eligibly ability scores have the same ability modifier, then you may choose which gains the benefit. In addition at 10th and 20th levels you gain a further +2 modifier to all scores. All bonuses are cumulative.
Positional Advantage: In any situation in which an enemy would be denied their dex bonus to armour or whenever you are considered to be flanking the enemy you gain a Bonus to all your attack Rolls and Damage rolls equal to half your fighter level. Effects which would deny a rouge their sneak attack will also affect Positional Advantage.
Warrior Wisdom: The ability affects allies within 60 feet of the fighter. The fighter does not have to use an action to activate this ability. The use of this ability occurs automatically before anyone on either side acts at the start of each round. The ability affects a number of allies equal to the Fighters Charisma Modifier, (minimum 1). If there are more targets than the fighter can affect, he must choose which to affect at the start of each round. Any affected allay may take an immediate action at any time to add a bonus to an ability modifier of choice equal to the fighters wisdom modifier, (minimum of +1). This affect then persists until the end of the round. The fighter may not affect himself with this ability.
Soldier On: A fighter halves the magnitude of all negative modifiers to all attack rolls, AC, Saves, Ability Checks, and movement speeds due to hostile abilities or spells, and completely ignores the movement penalty from wearing Heavy Armour. He also ignores all Death Affects. Finally he treats all Immobilise, Stun, or paralyse affects as staggering effects instead. Control affects (such as dominate person), are unaffected.
Epic Feat Access: From 10th level upwards a Fighter may select from the following list of epic feats as if they where normal, (i.e. non-epic), feats.
{table=head]Feat List
Additional Magic Item Space
Armour Skin
Epic Prowess
Epic Toughness
Epic Weapon Focus
Epic Weapon Specialisation
Improved Combat Reflex’s
Improved Stunning Fist
Improved Whirlwind Attack
Legendary Climber
Legendary Leaper
Legendary Rider
Legendary Wrestler
Mobile Defence
Overwhelming Critical
Penetrate Damage Reduction
Perfect Health
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Polyglot
Righteous Strike
Spellcasting Harrier
Storm of Throws
Storm of Arrows
Superior initiative
Two Weapon Rend
[/table]
Kick: Any time a fighter makes one or more attacks they may make an equivalent number of free kick attacks using the same attack BAB’s. These attacks are resolved separately from main hand and off hand attack’s, and do not suffer or inflict two weapon or multi-weapon fighting penalties on their own attack/s, on your main hand attack/s, or on your off-hand attack/s, (as appropriate). A Kick is treated as an unarmed attack from a fist, (or gauntlet if an armoured boot is worn), with the exceptions that a kick is trip attack weapon, and that it is treated as a one handed weapon, not a light weapon. Kick attacks may benefit from ay feats, abilities, spells, e.t.c. that would affect unarmed fist attacks. You may apply any feat affects you wish to these attacks, but if these attacks have a minimum action type limit, (i.e. usually Move action, standard action, or full round action), the action entitling you to the free attacks must be of at least the same or greater length.
Improved Kick: You may now make kick attacks with a second leg, treating your second leg as an off-hand weapon to your main leg. Neither leg transfers any affect of this to your actual main-hand or off-hand weapons, (as appropriate).
Free Shot: Anytime you make a melee attack as part of a Standard action or a Full Round attack action you may make an equal number of ranged attacks as a free action. This may be conducted with any weapon/s on your person. You are not considered to have to draw or sheathe the ranged weapons, and anything currently in your hands may be ignored for the duration of the attacks. These ranged attack do not incur the normal attacks of opportunity. You may apply any feat affects you wish to these attacks, but if these attacks have a minimum action type limit, (i.e. usually Move action, standard action, or full round action), the action entitling you to the free attacks must be of at least the same or greater length.
Multi-Classing Into Fighter: A character that multi-classes to fighter only gains 2 freely chosen class skills.
The aim here was versatility. An ability to get into a combat situation and always have options no matter the situation whilst trudging through the worst of situations. They’ll never be the best at any one thing, but they’ll give any specialist a run for their money while still being able to do whole ranges of things those specialists can’t.
For that reason they’ve got a full list of proficiencies and cross application of normally single target feats and the like. Not to mention an ability to pick up feat in other area’s as extra’s, (in effect a melee weapon feat gives you a utility feat, a ranged feat, and an unarmed melee feat), as well as heavy duty feat access. Solid saves across the board only reinforce his general utility no matter what his opponent uses against him. Soldier on is actually based on an old saying round where I live “When the going gets tough, the tough get going”, you might slow down and weaken the fighter, but stopping him completely is rather harder. At the same time his improved attacks ensures that his extra attacks are never truly terrible. Adding in very limited Epic feat access pre-epic level gives some real powerful options, but free choosing means much more versatility, again. I added the cross class stuff to keep cross classing imba down.
Overall I like the general direction, but on some levels it’s also a failure for me. First and foremost, most fighters are going to run short of decent feats very rapidly using just the SRD lists. Second Bonus feats at every level is a bit boring, I’d have preferred every odd level and some extra bits, but it’s honestly hard to come up with abilities that aren’t either every standard fighter fix “re roll X dice per day/encounter” or “Pass X number of dice rolls automatically per Day/Encounter”. Neither of which are something I like overmuch. And most other obvious idea’s I could come up with where either way too complicated, or suffered from not being broad base enough. ATM I view this as a starting point rather than a complete fix.
EDIT: Some of the above is out of date, see below for more info.
Okay I’ve spread the stat boosts about and reduced the multi-classing restrictions significantly. The main additions however are kick, improved kick, and free shot. What these do is let the fighter use his/her unarmed and ranged feats alongside normal melee weaponry. It lets a fighter get the full usage out of everything they have much more easily. But it does allow a fighter with sufficient attack bonus boosts and a strength modifier of even modest proportions to deal ludicrous amounts of damage. With enough of a strength modifier or other bonus damage source an average potential in excess of 200 damage exists. Now true, attack bonuses being what they are you may not be able to reliably hit with them all, and wizards can be hellishly blasty, but still, the potential is painful. I also altered the wording of soldier on as it’s meant to apply to penalties inflicted upon a fighter by outside sources, not basic stuff like negative penalties for two weapon fighting or whatever.
EDIT2: And some more out of date, again see below.
Okay, a bunch of wordings clarified. I’ve also re-jigged the way feats are handed out. This helps emphasise that I see these feats as core class elements as apposed to nice extra’s. I also expanded the idea with epic feats, but limited the choice somewhat to avoid stepping on toes or abuses with cross classing. I modified the way stat bonuses where being handled, to deal with dump stats and made some starts on introducing abilities to take advantage of the other stats. Early on Warrior Wisdom is unlikely to be especially powerful, later though it could easily add up to a powerful bonus, still a single ability, even a key one, only governs so many capabilities, it’s thus much more limited than many dedicated heavy duty buffs that can affect AC, Attack Rolls, Damage, and other stats all at once. Though I do have concerns that certain classes may be able to benefit excessively. Still considering several other idea’s for other ability modifier using skills as well.
Wait, does the fighter get a +2 to all abilities at level one? If so it becomes a required dip for tons of classes.
Yes but only if Fighter is your base class. i.e. anyone who multi-classes into fighter does not revive this. Thought i'd stated that, let me check.
EDIT: Yes i did state that, (under multi-classing into fighters).
Ashtagon
2013-03-22, 05:22 AM
Yes but only if Fighter is your base class. i.e. anyone who multi-classes into fighter does not revive this. Thought i'd stated that, let me check.
EDIT: Yes i did state that, (under multi-classing into fighters).
The multiclassing restrictions are an anomaly in the way classes are designed.
The multiclassing restrictions are an anomaly in the way classes are designed.
I'll assume your referencing to the fact that i have multiclass restrictions?
I added the ability score modifier in at 1st level instead of later levels because i'd already put the multi-class restrictions in. I put them in explicitly to deal with people dipping into fighter to get a few bonus feats and the 6 class skills chosen at will. Those two could give numerous classes huge boost. At the same time i wanted to avoid the obvious workaround of starting as a lv1 fighter and then multi-classing out to your real class.
I could have taken that and spread it all out over many levels sure. But then we'd be right back to where we started. A weak fighter that progresses slowly and doesn't get very strong. If your designing something around versatility and you have a levelling mechanic on top you can't go making it only be a good versatile after a lot of levels when there are specialist around or the specialists will outstrip it for many early levels. You have to hand out a good solid base right at day one if you want it to be on par. Unfortunately in a system like this that allows cross combining, (i.e. multi-classing), that gets rather overpowered because then every specialist will take it to get the generalist capabilities as well, (neutering the power advantage of the generalists strong start in the process).
It's a flaw in the system and some form of limitation was my only way around it.
CinuzIta
2013-03-22, 07:45 AM
i think that a +2 bonus to all the fighter's abilities at level one is way too much! In my opinion, letting the fighter choose to give that +2 to only 2 of his abilities would be better
Ashtagon
2013-03-22, 07:59 AM
I think that if a class is designed such that you have to create draconian rules on multi-classing, then the design is fundamentally flawed. There's a reason most people drop the multi-classing restriction on paladins and monks.
Cidolfas
2013-03-22, 10:59 AM
So it seems to me like this makes the fighter even more of a dip-worthy class (because of the +2 to ability scores if you start as a fighter; who wouldn't?) but only slightly less lame to continue taking to high level. It's still the classic feat/noob trap: you pick good feats, you will do OK; you don't, you are kinda screwed forever. There is a small amount of quality assurance, but not a bunch.
If you really want to keep emphasizing the feats, which I honestly think is pretty boring and similar to half the other fighter fixes around, I suggest a retraining ability that allows them to re-select fighter bonus feats (and only fighter bonus feats, probably) by resting for 8 hours. That way the fighter isn't just sitting around with his thumb up his butt while the wizard is finding new ways to butcher people. Now he goes from being awesome with a greatsword to being able to gouge out someone's eyeballs with burning chopsticks. Or whatever other thing you prefer.
invinible
2013-03-22, 11:44 AM
Guys, where does this say P.E.A.C.H. in the title rather than it basically asking for things to put on top of it for a more elegant fighter fix?
Cidolfas
2013-03-22, 04:18 PM
Guys, where does this say P.E.A.C.H. in the title rather than it basically asking for things to put on top of it for a more elegant fighter fix?
It's not like suggestions weren't made, but it shouldn't have to say P.E.A.C.H. on it in order to be critiqued. If people didn't want feedback on their stuff, they probably wouldn't post it.
Greenish
2013-03-22, 05:41 PM
Well, that's not so bad. Bonus to Charisma, UMD as a class skill, Skill Focus (UMD) and Magical Aptitude as bonus feats… yeah, that should do it. The only potential problem I can see with it is that it doesn't seem to have a guaranteed way of gaining partially charged wands.
I think that if a class is designed such that you have to create draconian rules on multi-classing, then the design is fundamentally flawed. There's a reason most people drop the multi-classing restriction on paladins and monks.
The problem is you can't have a versatile class without draconian restrictions. It's a basic flaw with versatile types in a system that allows multi-classing, (or it's equivalent). A character based on versatility needs to start out with a significant fraction of the capabilities in any one area of what the specialists in any one area possess. The problem is in a multi-class capable system such a versatile class can just be multi-classed into by the specialist classes and suddenly they have all their normal first class specialist capabilities and and significant chunk of the capabilities of all the other specialist class, (at low levels, obviously if you don't keep your generalist level up you'll lose power in the other area's compared to the specialists).
So it seems to me like this makes the fighter even more of a dip-worthy class (because of the +2 to ability scores if you start as a fighter; who wouldn't?) but only slightly less lame to continue taking to high level. It's still the classic feat/noob trap: you pick good feats, you will do OK; you don't, you are kinda screwed forever. There is a small amount of quality assurance, but not a bunch.
If you really want to keep emphasizing the feats, which I honestly think is pretty boring and similar to half the other fighter fixes around, I suggest a retraining ability that allows them to re-select fighter bonus feats (and only fighter bonus feats, probably) by resting for 8 hours. That way the fighter isn't just sitting around with his thumb up his butt while the wizard is finding new ways to butcher people. Now he goes from being awesome with a greatsword to being able to gouge out someone's eyeballs with burning chopsticks. Or whatever other thing you prefer.
First and foremost the +2 ability scores at first level is something i moved there after i put the multi-class restrictions in for skills and bonus feats reasons. Originally it was going to be either 9th, 11th, or 13th level with possibly another +2 to all at 19th level.
Second, Treat any bonus feats at odd numbered levels as placeholders. To quote myself from the OP:
Second Bonus feats at every level is a bit boring, I’d have preferred every odd level and some extra bits, but it’s honestly hard to come up with abilities that aren’t either every standard fighter fix “re roll X dice per day/encounter” or “Pass X number of dice rolls automatically per Day/Encounter”. Neither of which are something I like overmuch.
I maybe should have been a bit clearer there. This is totally WIP, (incidentally is that that P.E.A.C.H means then, wondered what that meant, assumed it was pathfinder related). The main reason for various feats granting you a bunch of bonus feats was also to combat precisely what you mentioned, (i.e. people picking bad feats because their new). In the process (for example), of picking up any 8 feats, (via spending actual normal feat allotments), from this list you will automatically acquire all core armed combat feats, all core ranged combat feats, and all core unarmed combat feats, plus all but 3 of the main core combat utility feats. It lessens the pain of bad feats on that list whilst reinforcing the versatility side of things. The problem is i was/am having issues letting them use all that together in a valid way. I've had a few idea's though now. Probably due to the fact that my cold is easing up a bit so i'm more clear headed.
Guys, where does this say P.E.A.C.H. in the title rather than it basically asking for things to put on top of it for a more elegant fighter fix?
This, i've had a few idea's now since i put this up for additions but I'm looking for idea's to substitute for bonus feats to some degree.
Anyway i'm gonna edit the OP with the new idea. will probably take a few hours though so hand on. I'll drop another post in when they're done for you :).
EDIT: Also what's everyone's thoughts on the armour changes.
Just to Browse
2013-03-23, 03:16 AM
I only see the improved ability scores at 9th level, is there supposed to be something at 1st level?
Also, it's totally possible to make a flexible class at level 1. You just can't frontload it.
And +2 to all ability scores is good, but I don't think it breaks the class. The casters aren't going to give up their caster levels, initiators honestly could go either way, and even basic brutes are going to get more benefit out of 1-level dips in barbarian than this. +1 to saves, 1 hp/lvl, +1 to hit and damage is all you really get out of a level dip in fighter. I'd honestly prefer a bonus feat. I don't think this class is so op that people will dip it left and right, and as a result I don't think you need a multiclass restriction on it.
Also dead levels are bad.
If you need a bit of inspiration for fighter abilities you should think of ones that require some kind if battlefield positioning to set up, like throws and place-swaps and or bonus damage/statuses for cornering foes, etc.
EDIT: Holy crap armor. You can wear full plate with max dex of +5, meaning level 1 players can have AC 20 to 25. That's pretty crazy--some of my monsters don't even have +6 to hit at level 1.
Also, it's totally possible to make a flexible class at level 1. You just can't frontload it.
Except you can't not front load a versatile class unless you want it to be seriously underpowered for it's first few levels if taken as the base class.
Don't front load it and the versatile class becomes something people only take after taking a few levels in a specialist first. It also heavily encourages using the versatile class in combination with a specialist purely for multi-classing to get a big chunk of generalist with that specialist capability from the main class.
With specialists, when you mix up you lose X capability in your first class's area of expertise for X capability in the second classes area of expertise. With a generalist you give up 1X of capability for Half X capability in several different area's. The result is that with two specialist there's a direct trade-off Likewise the Generalist on his own makes a trade-off because he can't use all his half X capabilities at once. But a Specialist taking some Generalist levels gets a lesser boost to their specialist capabilities, and can use the same number of capabilities plus their innately better specialist capabilities. In effect the specialist gets to keep 95% of their specialist power for the class level whilst getting huge shoring up in their weakpoints, (the Armour and weapon proficiencies of my new fighter class alone are invaluable to some). In affect the Generalist features the specialist can use are more valuable to them , (because they've got one or more major weakpoints), than the generalist, (who has no major weakpoints). Hope that makes sense.
And +2 to all ability scores is good, but I don't think it breaks the class. The casters aren't going to give up their caster levels, initiators honestly could go either way, and even basic brutes are going to get more benefit out of 1-level dips in barbarian than this. +1 to saves, 1 hp/lvl, +1 to hit and damage is all you really get out of a level dip in fighter. I'd honestly prefer a bonus feat. I don't think this class is so op that people will dip it left and right, and as a result I don't think you need a multiclass restriction on it.
Also dead levels are bad.
Well the way it was before this you'd got +2 to all stats at first level, 8 class skills of choice at first level, and 2, (3 if human), feats, each of which could entitle you to 3 extra feats, and any weapon specific feats would become cross weapon feats. on top of proficiencies with every weapon armour, and shield in existence. I've spread that around here a bit more so it's less of an issue, but i left the limit on class skills in place since letting anyone add another 8 class skills of choice on top of their existing list would get very powerful indeed, most classes could instantly fill in any major gaps at a stroke.
And yes, dead levels are bad, i'm still working on what else to come up with and where to put it. That's also why there's nothing given at 1st level ATM beyond proficiencies.
If you need a bit of inspiration for fighter abilities you should think of ones that require some kind if battlefield positioning to set up, like throws and place-swaps and or bonus damage/statuses for cornering foes, etc.
That's the thing though. This isn;t an update focused on making fighters kings of battlefield moment, or kings of positioning, (though a minor positional bonus isn't a bad idea now that you mention it), or kings of cornering, e.t.c. It's about giving them good broad range capabilities and the ability to utilise as much of that at once as possible, (to avoid issues with parts going unused most of the time, though this just reinforces the issues i mentioned with specialist picking up levels). Hence why they get all those extra feats, (giving them combat utility abilities, good armed melee capabilities, unarmed melee capabilities, and ranged capabilities). Some classes may be better ranged combatant, or pure melee range damage dealers, or unarmed combatants, or meatshields. But they each have significant weaknesses in one, (or usually more), of the other 3 area's. The fighter isn't the strongest in any one area, but he's got no glaring weakpoint's either. So whilst I'm not against movement enhancements or positional stuff, I don't want to step on Rouges or Barbarians or Monks toes in the process.
EDIT: Holy crap armor. You can wear full plate with max dex of +5, meaning level 1 players can have AC 20 to 25. That's pretty crazy--some of my monsters don't even have +6 to hit at level 1.
Well i was doing much of the designing based off feedback/comments made in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276366) thread regarding starting characters not being able to afford heavy armour. Though if you ignore that, then Full Plate, Tower Shield, Combat Expertise, and Dodge opens up the possibility of a base 40AC, albeit with an attack penalty sufficient to make almost anything a worse than 50/50 hit chance.
The whole point of the revision though was to make Heavy Armour a straight and genuine upgrade for classes that are willing to accept the AC check penalty and have the proficiency to use it. So that having access is an advantage, rather than a pointless feature.
EDIT: I've updated Shield GP costs in the OP, i realised they where whole-fully out of line after my update.
rockdeworld
2013-03-23, 09:34 AM
Change anything, just please don't have AC Bonus and AC Penalty in the headings of your tables.
Durazno
2013-03-23, 09:37 AM
I noticed that as well - "Check Penalty" would probably work for the second one.
rockdeworld
2013-03-23, 10:03 AM
EDIT: Holy crap armor. You can wear full plate with max dex of +5, meaning level 1 players can have AC 20 to 25.
First level characters generally can't afford full plate.
Other comments:
"If the characters dexterity exceeds the max dexterity allowed by their armour, (or shield if appropriate), before modifiers for feats, material types, e.t.c., they may reduce their AC check penalty by the excess."
When will this come up? Rogues will need a Dex of 22 to reduce the ACP of chainmail by 1. Why not instead just remove Dex caps on armor?
"Full Plate & Half Plate: Swap the spell failure chances for these two types around."
When will this come up? I've never seen an arcane spellcaster wearing heavy armor, and Duskblade-types can just ignore any ACP on Mithril X-plate.
"Medium and Heavy Armour Proficiency Feats: These Feat may never be taken on level up.
At it’s core what this is about is emphasising that for those with access to them, medium and heavy armour are superior."
But they're not. Wizards can cast Greater Mage Armor for pretty much the same advantage at cheaper cost, and the only thing better about these armors is a +4-+6 AC. Maybe that's ok for low-level play, but at mid-to-high levels it's not.
What is the theme of this fighter? Why does it have all good saves and plenty of skills? Why does a fighter need +2 to all stats? Right now the class feels very scattered.
Bonus feats: the feats are still bad, but being able to choose others is nice.
Fighters and Proficiencies: last sentence unfinished.
Improved Attacks: Text vs Table disagreement at level 11.
Soldier On: Neat.
Bonus Epic Feat: All feats are gained at level up. You may want to pick a different wording, such as "gained as fighter bonus feats/not gained as fighter bonus feats"
Kick: "free standard action" should probably be "free action." The rest has bad grammar too.
Improved Kick: involves cursing? (last parenthesis)
Free Shot: The wording on this is all kinds of bad. As written, it doesn't give you anything, because it says "if you make a standard action attack, you can make another standard action attack." Which you can do anyway. Even if it did work, you'd still have the problem that most ranged weapons (all of them that are worth anything) require two hands, as do most melee weapons, and any weapon you're not holding is "stored".
ATM I'm not sure why anyone would take Fighter level 1, since it's a dead level. This class still suffers from the problem succinctly posed by Frank Trollman: "How about instead of being able to travel anywhere in the multiverse, transform yourself into anything you can think of, stop time, and slay everyone you can see, we just give a nice +1 to hit with your secondary weapon? Deal?"
Ironically he and K fix that in the Feats section, not the Fighter section. But you did say to assume everything else was regular D&D.
You correctly stated that the Fighter doesn't really need frontloading, but you haven't really backloaded it comparable to other classes. Altogether, I think the end result of what you're going for here is this (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)).
I hate multi-quoting but looks like the only way.
Just to be clear if there';s a phrasing or grammer issue please feel free to elaborate more. I'm both Dyslexic and Dyspraxic, i tend to screw that up quite easily and often and am normally completely unable to spot my own error until it's explained in detail. Sorry. I'll look over your pointed out elements in detail though when i've had my nap.
First level characters generally can't afford full plate.
Other comments:
"If the characters dexterity exceeds the max dexterity allowed by their armour, (or shield if appropriate), before modifiers for feats, material types, e.t.c., they may reduce their AC check penalty by the excess."
When will this come up? Rogues will need a Dex of 22 to reduce the ACP of chainmail by 1. Why not instead just remove Dex caps on armor?
1. That rule isn't really designed for light armour wearers anyway, the Dex caps are there to cover the unlikely but possible power gaming that might otherwise ensue, as well as to emphasise, Armour is better than no Armour, class abilities aside. But the rule regarding the AC check is in case of any non-core classes i'm unaware of that still suffer AC penalties but use high Dex Builds, (i'm also working on a homebrew that falls under this, i figured i'd make it compatible into the bargain). Plus it makes Dex actually worth something to people with non-light armour.
"Full Plate & Half Plate: Swap the spell failure chances for these two types around."
When will this come up? I've never seen an arcane spellcaster wearing heavy armor, and Duskblade-types can just ignore any ACP on Mithril X-plate.
"Medium and Heavy Armour Proficiency Feats: These Feat may never be taken on level up.
At it’s core what this is about is emphasising that for those with access to them, medium and heavy armour are superior."
But they're not. Wizards can cast Greater Mage Armor for pretty much the same advantage at cheaper cost, and the only thing better about these armors is a +4-+6 AC. Maybe that's ok for low-level play, but at mid-to-high levels it's not.
You've quoted me wildly out of context there. The quoted rule is to bring their Arcane spell Failure chance into line with the AC check penalty and the stated reason it exists. With properly fitted armour the weight will be the biggest hindrance so AC check penalty ought to follow some semblance of sense there. Same with Arcane Spell failure chance, Full Plate is more metal yes.
The next quoted section was specifically meaning classes that aren't arcane spellcasters. (I.e. anyone without a reason to be wearing no armour other than an insane dex modifier). Yes it's only a +4/6 modifier, and no, maybe that isn't a huge amount at higher levels at all. But it's nothing to sneeze at, (using the highest set-ups i could find in the SRD lists a Fighter without racial AC would currently have a max no shield AC, (before mithril) of: 31(+9 Full Plate +1 Dex +5 Enhancement +1 Dodge feat +5 Combat Expertise). 26 without Combat Expertise. With the New system that's: 36(+10 Full Plate, +5 Dex +5 Enhancement +1 Dodge feat +5 Combat Expertise), or 31 without Expertise feat. It's not a huge buff, (especially if you stack mithril on top), but every little helps. Plus shields are more worthwhile now for that matter. Another couple of AC can be gained that way. I'm not seeing this as some mountain of change that turns AC of Heavy Armour into God Mode. I'm seeing this as a change that makes Heavy/Medium Armour worth it at all.
What is the theme of this fighter? Why does it have all good saves and plenty of skills? Why does a fighter need +2 to all stats? Right now the class feels very scattered.
I'll deal with the first 3 questions in reply to your link at the bottom. For the last, that's because it's WIP.
Bonus feats: the feats are still bad, but being able to choose others is nice.
Again this is something better dealt with at the bottom, but in short they don't need to match class features of other classes, they just need to provide certain capabilities whilst being noob friendly. Also in case it's unclear the table isn't a list of the only feats you can take. It's a list of those that give extra's. If it's a feat available anywhere in any supplement you own and it doesn't have a rule preventing a fighter from taking it, you can take it as a bonus feat. But only the ones on the list give extra's as well.
Fighters and Proficiencies: last sentence unfinished.
Good catch, will edit that after my nap, was going to say "Fighters also ignore the -4 penalty for using improvised weapons"
Improved Attacks: Text vs Table disagreement at level 11.
half of 11 is 5.5, that round to 5. 6 is the defualt second attack at 11th level for full BAB progression and is higher than half full BAB. So whats the disagreement?
Soldier On: Neat.
Glad you liked. I wanted to avoid full immunities as that's not really mundane. But the ability to use pure grit and determination to overcome the worst of it is a classic mundane heroes idea i can use.
Bonus Epic Feat: All feats are gained at level up. You may want to pick a different wording, such as "gained as fighter bonus feats/not gained as fighter bonus feats"
The main idea was to make an exception to the normal rule there because potentially you might want a specific epic feat, but still need a prerequisite that the bonus feats rule doesn't obliviate, (like another non-epic feat).
Kick: "free standard action" should probably be "free action." The rest has bad grammar too.
I just don't want to create any confusion vis a vis what you can do during the free action here. If you can suggest a better grammar wording that achieves the same affect feel free.
Improved Kick: involves cursing? (last parenthesis)
"as appropriate"
Dammed spellchecker didn't spot the error and my proofreading is bad due to my disabilities.
Free Shot: The wording on this is all kinds of bad. As written, it doesn't give you anything, because it says "if you make a standard action attack, you can make another standard action attack." Which you can do anyway. Even if it did work, you'd still have the problem that most ranged weapons (all of them that are worth anything) require two hands, as do most melee weapons, and any weapon you're not holding is "stored".
I must have misunderstood the Draw/Sheathe weapon rules there, i got the impression that a weapon was only stowed if it was in your backpack, if you'd stored it about your person, (say on your back over your pack as OoTS's Haley does all the time with her bow), it's accessible to be drawn. As for the two hands. For the purposes of this you can effectively ignore anything your currently carrying in them. If you want a visual example, Think Hawkeye or Legolas. Switching from their bow to other weapons and back firing arrows, kicking punching, and hacking everything in sight more or less all at the same time. Hope that helps you understand what the rule is supposed to do.
ATM I'm not sure why anyone would take Fighter level 1, since it's a dead level. This class still suffers from the problem succinctly posed by Frank Trollman: "How about instead of being able to travel anywhere in the multiverse, transform yourself into anything you can think of, stop time, and slay everyone you can see, we just give a nice +1 to hit with your secondary weapon? Deal?"
As i said, atm unfinished so fighter level 1 isn't intended to stay a dead level. It's a placeholder.
You correctly stated that the Fighter doesn't really need frontloading, but you haven't really backloaded it comparable to other classes. Altogether, I think the end result of what you're going for here is this (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Fighter,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)).
Actually for the type of fighter I'm trying to build you kind of do need to front load, (though the more simultaneous usage capability you give the less this is needed). Thanks for the link but that's not exactly what I'm going. I'm going for two real themes here.
The first of which is what the high saves and Soldier on are about. Limiting the ability of Spellcasters to just wave their hands and make the fighter go away without trying. I'm sure the overpowered T2 and T1 casters can and will still do this to a degree, but I'm hoping it will be enough vs T3 casters to mean they can only really slow them down, not stop them cold.
The second is more significant and much more WIP. Every other class out there (in the SRD anyway), does one thing really well. To pick a few very narrow examples, Paladins are excellent meat shields and buffers. Rouges excellent Flankers and armed melee damage dealers, Barbarians are also good meat Shields and excellent armed melee damage dealers. Arcane Archers are solid ranged damage dealers, Monks are excellent unarmed damage dealers, e.t.c. Now that isn't all those classes can do, (I'm simplifying for the sake of ease of demonstration), but their certainly some defining aspects. A fighter can't match any of them in their chosen area's. But thanks to things like the Extra Feats, Kick, Improved Kick, Free Shot, e.t.c. they can do a solid and significant fraction of each. Specialists are powerful because they're really good at a few things, fighters are powerful because they're mediocre at a lot of things, but unlike a traditional massive multi-class, can do all of those mediocre things at once. A fighter is the sum of his individual mediocre elements, not a single defining attribute.
That where i part company with your link, it emphasises fighters as having a lot of abilities that let them pass dice rolls, (i.e. reliability), pull interrupts and make a lot of free actions, (which again seems mostly interrupt or mobility based, with a side element of freedom of action based. There's a lot of surface similarities but, (to my eye), there's a different aim behind them. My reliability stuff is aimed at stopping Debuffs and disables, (which come heavily from spellcasters), from locking the fighter out of doing anything rather than about general reliability. I also hand out a lot of free feats and weapon usage, but that's more about providing a rock solid base for the rest of the versatility to build off. The Bonus actions are equally more about giving a fighter the ability to utilise his multiple capabilities in unison effectively rather than any freedom of action or interruption or mobility edge.
Hope that helps.
Bed time now.
Just to Browse
2013-03-23, 02:27 PM
Except you can't not front load a versatile class unless you want it to be seriously underpowered for it's first few levels if taken as the base class.The factotum.
the way it was before this you'd got +2 to all stats at first level, 8 class skills of choice at first level, and 2, (3 if human), feats, each of which could entitle you to 3 extra feats, and any weapon specific feats would become cross weapon feats. on top of proficiencies with every weapon armour, and shield in existence. I've spread that around here a bit more so it's less of an issue, but i left the limit on class skills in place since letting anyone add another 8 class skills of choice on top of their existing list would get very powerful indeed, most classes could instantly fill in any major gaps at a stroke.The factotum indeed.
the thing though. This isn;t an update focused on making fighters kings of battlefield moment, or kings of positioning, (though a minor positional bonus isn't a bad idea now that you mention it), or kings of cornering, e.t.c. It's about giving them good broad range capabilities and the ability to utilise as much of that at once as possible, (to avoid issues with parts going unused most of the time, though this just reinforces the issues i mentioned with specialist picking up levels). Hence why they get all those extra feats, (giving them combat utility abilities, good armed melee capabilities, unarmed melee capabilities, and ranged capabilities). Some classes may be better ranged combatant, or pure melee range damage dealers, or unarmed combatants, or meatshields. But they each have significant weaknesses in one, (or usually more), of the other 3 area's. The fighter isn't the strongest in any one area, but he's got no glaring weakpoint's either. So whilst I'm not against movement enhancements or positional stuff, I don't want to step on Rouges or Barbarians or Monks toes in the process.Yes he's supposed to be flexible--that's why I suggested it. Positioning will never change, while spells and effects and dr requirements and regen will.
i was doing much of the designing based off feedback/comments made in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276366) thread regarding starting characters not being able to afford heavy armour. Though if you ignore that, then Full Plate, Tower Shield, Combat Expertise, and Dodge opens up the possibility of a base 40AC, albeit with an attack penalty sufficient to make almost anything a worse than 50/50 hit chance. my bad, third level then. The problem remains that armor I'd excessively good at low levels (eve more so now) and continued to fall off at high levels. The current fix exacerbates one problem without truly fixing the other.
rockdeworld
2013-03-23, 11:42 PM
I hate multi-quoting but looks like the only way.
Nothing wrong with multiquoting - it's one advantage forums have over conversation that you can have discussions point by point. :smallsmile:
"1. That rule isn't really designed for light armour wearers anyway, the Dex caps are there to cover the unlikely but possible power gaming that might otherwise ensue,"
This is not, and to my knowledge never has been, a problem in D&D. And you can't create a widesweeping change without it affecting everyone.
"it makes Dex actually worth something to people with non-light armour."
Dex is worth something to people with non-light armor: it's a valuable source of dump stat. Characters both with point buy and rolls (which point buy simulates) have low stats, and they have to put them somewhere. Heavy Armor allows them to say "Hey, Dex won't really help my AC, so I can put a low score there and still have a decent AC at this level."
"You've quoted me wildly out of context there. The quoted rule is to bring their Arcane spell Failure chance into line with the AC check penalty and the stated reason it exists."
I admit that was a bit confusing. What I meant was that ASF for Heavy Armor doesn't matter, and may as well be 100%, because it will never apply. There's nothing wrong with your change.
"The next quoted section was specifically meaning classes that aren't arcane spellcasters. (I.e. anyone without a reason to be wearing no armour other than an insane dex modifier). Yes it's only a +4/6 modifier, and no, maybe that isn't a huge amount at higher levels at all. But it's nothing to sneeze at, (using the highest set-ups i could find in the SRD lists a Fighter without racial AC would currently have a max no shield AC, (before mithril) of: 31(+9 Full Plate +1 Dex +5 Enhancement +1 Dodge feat +5 Combat Expertise). 26 without Combat Expertise. With the New system that's: 36(+10 Full Plate, +5 Dex +5 Enhancement +1 Dodge feat +5 Combat Expertise), or 31 without Expertise feat."
The average BAB of CR 18-20 monsters is +27, meaning they hit your optimized 36 AC on a 9 before adding their Str mods. Hachoo.
"Plus shields are more worthwhile now for that matter."
That's true, your heavy shield is the same as the 1st level spell. That's a step in the right direction.
"I'm seeing this as a change that makes Heavy/Medium Armour worth it at all."
It doesn't. To even get your 36 AC you assume the fighter is MAD by pushing Dex up to 20, or suboptimally using TWF, which in core only a rogue should be doing, in addition to taking 2 bad feats. Outside core, TWF still suboptimal for a straight fighter and the feats are still bad.
"Also in case it's unclear the table isn't a list of the only feats you can take."
That was clear, and it's a fine change. That's what I meant by "able to choose other feats."
"half of 11 is 5.5, that round to 5. 6 is the defualt second attack at 11th level for full BAB progression and is higher than half full BAB. So whats the disagreement?"
5 < 5.5. Second iterative attacks are still iterative attacks. Thus some of your iterative attacks are made at less than 1/2 your full BAB.
"I just don't want to create any confusion vis a vis what you can do during the free action here. If you can suggest a better grammar wording that achieves the same affect feel free."
Whenever the fighter makes an attack, he can make an unarmed strike against the same opponent as a free action. This ability does not stack with itself.
An idea for the epic feats: At level 10, replace the regular FBF selection with Epic Feats instead. It gives somewhat better abilities (akin to the rogue special abilities) that still don't rival the power of spells.
"As for the two hands. For the purposes of this you can effectively ignore anything your currently carrying in them. If you want a visual example, Think Hawkeye or Legolas. Switching from their bow to other weapons and back firing arrows, kicking punching, and hacking everything in sight more or less all at the same time. Hope that helps you understand what the rule is supposed to do."
If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
This is the only place stored items are mentioned and none of the terms are defined. It's up to you to decide what a stored weapon is, but in general it means "it isn't in your hands, and it's not in a sheathe." Drawing a weapon is usually defined only for swords and daggers, which have sheathes carried around the waist.
Haley's bow is stored behind her back when it isn't in her hands. It requires a move action to take it out and either provokes an AoO when she retrieves it or doesn't, depending on your DM's definition of draw.
I don't know anything about Hawkeye, but everything Legolas does in the movies can already be done in D&D. "Stab Stab Pull-out-a-bow-and-shoot" is accomplished by:
Round 1: Full attack.
Round 2: Drop your swords (a free action), draw your bow (a move action), fire an arrow (standard action).
The other problem with this ability is that it's given to all fighters, whether they want it or not, at level 13. If I'm a Spirited Charger build, I do not care about making a ranged attack on top of my supercharge because I don't have the dexterity or the investment in a solid ranged weapon necessary to pull it off. And level 13? That's the same level Initiators give out 7th level maneuvers, like Avalanche of Blades, Swooping Dragon Strike, and Clarion Call.
Building a class around fluff with bad abilities results in junk like the monk, Bladesinger, and really most of the PrCs that end up in the Iron Chef Optimization Challenge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122).
A better ability at this level would be something that can't be replicated by a spell and increases martial prowess, while still fitting within your theme. For example: Versatile Skill (Ex): once per encounter as a swift action, a fighter can swap one of his feats for another for a number of rounds equal to his BAB.
"The first of which is what the high saves and Soldier on are about. Limiting the ability of Spellcasters to just wave their hands and make the fighter go away without trying. I'm sure the overpowered T2 and T1 casters can and will still do this to a degree, but I'm hoping it will be enough vs T3 casters to mean they can only really slow them down, not stop them cold."
1. You haven't limited it. Even non-overpowered full-casters can say "Forcecage" or even "Solid Fog" and render the fighter useless. High saves don't stop that. On a side note: that's one of the reasons casters are overpowered in 3.5.
2. Factotum is a T3 caster and can cast both those spells also. Beguiler and Dread Necromancer can do worse. Even a Bard has Grease. By T3 caster, did you mean the Psionic Warrior and Duskblade? They still have the mobility advantage on your fighter, namely: "I stand in your way and protect my allies!" "Dimension Hop/Dimension door/Psionic Levitate/Dimension Slide. I attack the squishies." "I give chase!" "I teleport again."
The reason I linked the Tome Fighter is because it already accomplishes this with its "Foil Action." Spellcaster casting a spell? Foiled. Someone charging in? Foiled. Flying away? Foiled.
"The second is more significant and much more WIP. Every other class out there (in the SRD anyway), does one thing really well. To pick a few very narrow examples, Paladins are excellent meat shields and buffers. Rouges excellent Flankers and armed melee damage dealers, Barbarians are also good meat Shields and excellent armed melee damage dealers. Arcane Archers are solid ranged damage dealers, Monks are excellent unarmed damage dealers, e.t.c."
No they're not.
Paladins are excellent statues that can't stop anything in their tracks without optimization, and their buffs are limited to self only.
Monks are terrible unarmed damage dealers, and their bad offense is one of the reasons there are so many monk fixes.
Arcane Archers are worse at ranged damage than a Ranger. They don't progress spellcasting, they don't give you more than 1/day special abilities, and they don't give you great abilities at that.
Rogues and Barbarians I give you. You're 2/5.
"Now that isn't all those classes can do,"
In the case of Barbarian, that pretty much is all that class can do. I'll leave the others alone for now.
"(I'm simplifying for the sake of ease of demonstration), but their certainly some defining aspects. A fighter can't match any of them in their chosen area's. But thanks to things like the Extra Feats, Kick, Improved Kick, Free Shot, e.t.c. they can do a solid and significant fraction of each."
What you're saying is "the Fighter can't be as good as a Monk or Barbarian, but it can do some of the things they do almost as well."
Then it's not a fighter. It's a dead man walking (or a challenge to optimizers).
"Specialists are powerful because they're really good at a few things, fighters are powerful because they're mediocre at a lot of things, but unlike a traditional massive multi-class, can do all of those mediocre things at once. A fighter is the sum of his individual mediocre elements, not a single defining attribute."
This is also the apparent argument for the Bard being the class it is, and it's a really terrible class when it's played like that. This line of reasoning absolutely does not work at level 10+. If a character can't make the standard, it dies, and at higher levels the standard is high.
"My reliability stuff is aimed at stopping Debuffs and disables, (which come heavily from spellcasters),"
It doesn't.
"I also hand out a lot of free feats and weapon usage, but that's more about providing a rock solid base for the rest of the versatility to build off."
You currently provide one more feat and the same weapon usage as the PHB fighter.
"The Bonus actions are equally more about giving a fighter the ability to utilise his multiple capabilities in unison effectively rather than any freedom of action or interruption or mobility edge."
What multiple capabilities? What build can you make that actually uses all these abilities reliably? A well-built PHB fighter like the Gatling Gun Chain Tripper or Jack B. Quick has one thing it does really well because it pours all its feats into that trick, not spreads them out. A fighter can't afford to be mediocre when a Wizard or Druid can become a god by accident, and a Warblade is still lethal by just picking random maneuvers and stances.
In all, what you've posted isn't a Fighter, it's an Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert) with some martial abilities. It's unfocused, and no better than the PHB fighter.
You've got a good idea, and Soldier On is a really cool ability, so build on that. You aren't at a fix yet, but you can be if you put a bit more work into it.
The factotum.
The factotum indeed.
Had to look (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factotum) that up, and yes that's sort of what I'm going for, though I'm not sure how that has anything to do with what i said beyond that.
Yes he's supposed to be flexible--that's why I suggested it. Positioning will never change, while spells and effects and dr requirements and regen will.
Oh i understood why you suggested it and agree, i just don;t wan to step on anyone toes either;).
My bad, third level then. The problem remains that armor I'd excessively good at low levels (eve more so now) and continued to fall off at high levels. The current fix exacerbates one problem without truly fixing the other.
The armour fix was aimed at fixing a specific issue brought up in that thread. Namely that by the time you could afford heavy armour you could have the magic items to make your Dex bonus high enough to make a chain shirt nearly equal in AC to Full Plate whilst having a vastly higher AC check penalty. By saving the money a superior in every respect Mithril Chain Shirt could then be acquired thereafter which would then be superior for all but heavy Dex builds all the way to epic levels, (where eventually Dex would become so high armour was meaningless).
If there's a separate issue with AC not scaling into the higher levels as well, (i suspected their might be TBH), that's an issue for quality levels and materials to sort out, (D&D3.5 is far too fond of using the non-stacking enhancement bonus on every bloody thing IMO, whilst it's a good thing all enhancement bonuses don't stack, it would benefit if equipment quality and magical bonuses where non-stacking IMO). I think given i want to do a weapons revision as well i'll some up with something in a separate thread on that though.
Nothing wrong with multiquoting - it's one advantage forums have over conversation that you can have discussions point by point. :smallsmile:
Actually on most forums i visit using lots of quote tags like that is a suspendable offence because it's considered, (and in most cases, just not that one), i tend to agree. People on most forums use it to chop argument up and attack them ad hoim, e.t.c. Your expected to use bullet points instead.
Fortunately this last post of yours gives me a ton of easy bullet point-able pieces:
1. I'm not sure what your trying to say here, maybe i was a bit unclear. The idea is no matter how good someone's dex if they want better AC than Medium or Heavy armour their only option should be to to take off all their armour. Which monk like classes aside is simply not going to be viable. That said the original point i was responding to now makes more sense now i'm awake. I can see what you mean about dropping Dex modifier limits altogether. As long as base armour AC is higher it doesn't make a huge difference either way.
2. I'm going off the thread i linked earlier. there they treated a +4 Dex modifier by the upper single digits as normal and a 6 by 20 as quite feasible for a non-dex focusing character. Bassiclly it was their contention that no one is going to have a low enough Dex modifier by the time they can afford Mithril Chain to make the Standard Full plate superior, and by the time you can afford Mithril plate you'll have a dex high enough to fully utilise Mithril Chain making the minor +1AC very weak for the extra cost and huge AC check penalty. My aim was thus to make sure that non-mithril Heavy Armours where equivalent to Mithril Light much as possible. I buffed Mediums to keep the relevant vs Lights as well. Hope that makes sense
3.Oh i Know the AFC doesn't really matter, i can be a bit anal retentive about little things like that actually. Sorry.
4. That's a fair point/s, but i think i kind of answered this further up this post when replying to Just To Browse. The whole Equipment quality system needs an overhaul imo as it stacks poorly with all kinds of other things and helps low A armour more than high AC armour, (same with weapon damage too).
5.thanks :).
6. I think i covered most of the point bar bad feats above. So i'm gonna skip over.
7. Wanted to be sure :).
8. D&D always rounds fractions down though, i'm already playing with enough rules without messing with another.
9. Ah i think you've misunderstood the rule hugely to a degree. Let me explain what kick and Improved Kick are supposed to do:
If you make a standard attack, (let’s assume for sake of argument your TWF’ing and have PTWF as a free epic feat plus BAB 16+). You may make a single attack at full BAB, (minus TWF penalties), with your main hand, a single attack at full BAB (minus TWF penalties), with your off hand. An unarmed main Hand “kick” Attack at full BAB, (minus TWF penalties), and an off-hand unarmed “kick” attack at full BAB, (minus TWF penalties). On a full attack you could make 4 main hand, 4 off hand, 4 main hand kick, and 4 off hand kick attacks. If you throw Free Shot in there that’s a ranged attack, (or 2 if using a one handed range weapon), on every standard action attack and 4, (or more), ranged attacks on a full action. Obviously this is the top of the scale. If you’re not TWF’ing then your non-kick attacks will be fewer, that’s fine. I wanted the most extreme example.
Still thanks for the example, I think I can build off that.
10. Not a bad idea TBH, i just want to be sue that a fighter has enough bonus feats to pick up a good selection of whatever they want from Core and, (if you have access, non-core), feats on-top of most of the stuff on the lists from earlier, but i can see ways round that and any other worries i have so i'll work on that.
11. Hawkeye from the new Avengers movie is probably a better example than Legolas as Legolas only does it a couple of times. Specifically I'm talking about mixing melee and ranged attacks, within what would, (in D&D terms), be a single round, and without necessarily dropping your weapons, (legolas is very quick at sheathing his daggers and unsheathing them as necessary for example). Both however are examples. The key point here is i'm giving you a whole slew of mixed unarmed, melee, and ranged feats as freebies. I expect A) you to use them, B) to make that actually work out on a power level basis, be able to use them together at the same time, not pick one or the other.
The other problem with this ability is that it's given to all fighters, whether they want it or not, at level 13. If I'm a Spirited Charger build, I do not care about making a ranged attack on top of my supercharge because I don't have the dexterity or the investment in a solid ranged weapon necessary to pull it off. And level 13? That's the same level Initiators give out 7th level maneuvers, like Avalanche of Blades, Swooping Dragon Strike, and Clarion Call.
Had to quote that to separate it out from point 11.
Two things here. One if your trying to play a fighter like that, (i.e. a build designed to do one thing well), then your playing against the strengths I'm trying to build into the class, unsurprisingly that's going to end with you being rather weak. Two the point about dump stats is why I'm giving the stat boosts, (amongst other reasons), but maybe something specific to dump stats at Lv1 is a good idea all the same.
12. Let me be clear since i don't think you read the thread i linked to earlier. As i explained there i came across the SRD via my OoTS reading, and promptly saw a great many problems. Game Design and balance are something of amateur hobbies for me so when i found this section of the forums i felt like getting stuck in. The problem with that is i'm not a experienced D&D players and with how difficult some parts of the SRD are i don't have a full list of every possible abusive combination a mage can use to shut down a melee class, (besides the totally broken fly), or every monster out there and the averages that produces for each CR level. These are intuitive to you, but i'm still getting a grasp on those and this is why i need feedback like this. Now you've pointed out and reminded me that there are containment spells that neither allow a save nor apply an immobilise yet can stop a fighter from doing anything, i can attempt to address this.
13. You misunderstood. I meant internally they do these things well. Obviously in the overall picture they're not that powerful. But internally this is what they focus on. The point is when i'm done i don't want my fighter to be a better At anything it does than any tier equivalent specialist in that area. I used the SRD base classes as examples. Don't take that as me saying i consider them T3. A paladin fix is next on my agenda after my custom base class and Weapon/Armour revision is up for example.
Then it's not a fighter. It's a dead man walking (or a challenge to optimizers).
"Specialists are powerful because they're really good at a few things, fighters are powerful because they're mediocre at a lot of things, but unlike a traditional massive multi-class, can do all of those mediocre things at once. A fighter is the sum of his individual mediocre elements, not a single defining attribute."
This is also the apparent argument for the Bard being the class it is, and it's a really terrible class when it's played like that. This line of reasoning absolutely does not work at level 10+. If a character can't make the standard, it dies, and at higher levels the standard is high.
The Bard is not a generalist and if you think so you've never seen a real generalist before. I can see why you'd think it is but it's not remotely one.
When designing a Generalist there are several "rules" that must never forget:
1. possessing 50% of a specialist capability in one area in real terms is worth much less to your overall power than 50% when no other 100% capability is present. Specialising has something of an exponential power growth curve, (upto a point anyway), and thus an inverse of that cure when giving out partial capabilities. This goes away if your a specialist taking partial capabilities in non-specialist area's that synergises with your specialist capability because the synergy's are more powerful.
2. A generalist who is restricted to using only one of their capabilities at once is no more powerful than their best capability, (which per the generalist idea and rule 1 will be significantly less powerful that a specialist). As such a generalist must be allowed to use as many capabilities as it is possible, (within balance), to allow at once.
3. Careful attention must be paid to synargies, and other interactions, these are important to overall power level and balance. But Also making sure the whole thing gell's.
Right now i've got the bare bones of 1 and 2 in, but i'm wrestling something fierce with 3. Your point about dump stat's has made me decide to totally change the way i'm going to hand out fighter stat boosts for example. Your point about Forcecage and Solid Fog is going to force me to re-examine the synergies inherent in high saves and Soldier on and re-evaluate that, e.t.c.
The Bard (just to cover that base in case you ask), falls down hard on rules 1 and 2. Rule 1 because neither it's bard music or it's spell casting abilities are full power ones, nor are the two sufficient powerful to add up to enough overall capability. Rule 2 because it either casts spells or it using bardic music. it can't even do 2 mediocre things at once.
What multiple capabilities? What build can you make that actually uses all these abilities reliably? A well-built PHB fighter like the Gatling Gun Chain Tripper or Jack B. Quick has one thing it does really well because it pours all its feats into that trick, not spreads them out. A fighter can't afford to be mediocre when a Wizard or Druid can become a god by accident, and a Warblade is still lethal by just picking random maneuvers and stances.
Lets see. a full set of armed attack with your hands. A full set of unarmed, (both main hand and off hand), attacks with your kicks, and a full set of ranged attacks with any ranged weapon of choice every round. You aren't the best ranged or armed melee, or unarmed melee out there, (because your relying on feats over class abilities), but the fact that you have some many boosting feats means your better than anyone without significant class abilities in each area. And unlike classes with class abilities in each area. You don't gain capabilities in one area at the expense of the other.
Nor am i done. This is the first round covering the basic concepts of letting you combined armed melee, ranged, and unarmed capabilities in a single package. Now i'm going to start expanding capabilities as i come up with new idea's to cover additional area's I feel the fighter should have capabilities in.
Anyway got some serious writing and modifications to do.
rockdeworld
2013-03-24, 08:01 AM
Good luck with all that. Since you mentioned stats and CRs, I think this link (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?138024-Average-AC-and-Hp-of-Core-monsters-by-CR) and this link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=mqg1bdtli1fa5772tt1v9v4i62&topic=11336.msg388252#msg388252) might be helpful to you. They're not intuitive to me, I just use these resources.
Ohhh, cheers for the links, that helps a fair bit for future use :). The SRD is rather hard to follow due to every spell and every monster being on separate pages so your flicking back and forth all the time. With no CR listed in the index for each creature either it's an extra pain. The comment on the first link about later published monsters being much nastier than core stuff is also fairly explanatory of a few things.
Just to Browse
2013-03-25, 03:34 AM
1. You said it was impossible to make a flexible class without frontloading it. I pointed you to a flexible class that was not frontloaded.
2. Literally one base class uses positioning, and that's the rogue who only uses it ~50% of the time. 0 toes will be stepped on. But as you wish.
3. So in sort-of solving the problem (it's still better to west mithril around level 5 with a dex booster because your touch and flat-footed are closer) you have generated another in which characters have excessively high ac levels they shouldn't.
you should try another fix--higher static armor bonuses is not the way to go.
1. You said it was impossible to make a flexible class without frontloading it. I pointed you to a flexible class that was not frontloaded.
2. Literally one base class uses positioning, and that's the rogue who only uses it ~50% of the time. 0 toes will be stepped on. But as you wish.
3. So in sort-of solving the problem (it's still better to west mithril around level 5 with a dex booster because your touch and flat-footed are closer) you have generated another in which characters have excessively high ac levels they shouldn't.
you should try another fix--higher static armor bonuses is not the way to go.
1. Ok now i know it's a class i can go looking . Found this (http://dndtools.eu/classes/factotum/). Hope it's accurate. Hate to break it to you, but name and frivolous descriptions aside that is neither un-front loaded, nor a generalist. It has a number of exceptionally powerful capabilities in it's first few level, (albeit their limited, which reduces their real power level). And it does not fit a generalist because it fails on a most basic level. It functions as an adaptist. It's capable, (for a limited time), of performing one, (or more at higher levels), roles of choice at a level matching or closely approaching a specialist, (especially early on). A generalist is about performing multiple roles at a modest level at the same time. A Factorum is about performing one or more chosen roles very well, but for a very limited time period. Their related, but noticeably different concepts.
That said since they are related I've picked up a few idea's.
2.Yes. The point is if i grant too big a bonus to positional advantage i start pulling up close behind a rouge in that area and that's something i don't want.
3. :smallmad: Look the basic problem is that Medium armour is not sufficiently good compared to light to justify. A similar issues exists with Heavy vs medium. And for the upgrade to be worth it it has to be worth the AC check increases in each case and the speed decrease for Heavy Armour, (though an argument for the latter's removal can be made). That dictates more than minor boosts in AC value. Now maybe the magnitude of my initial fix is screwed up, as I've already said. But there is no way of fixing the issue that doesn't involve Heavy Armour providing a very large amount of AC, (who would have thought, Heavy Armour is protective). What you can do is make quality and magical bonuses much more innate. Design/Redesign the system right and you can make it so that you don't need as large an initial advantage. But there is no way within the existing attack roll system to fix things without someone able to afford and wear Heavy Armour getting unusually high AC values, (Especially if combined with a shield).
Updated OP with another revision.
I've also dropped the armour changes out since i'm planning a separate thread for that now.
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