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Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2006-11-17, 10:54 AM
I've been listening in to a lot of debates about alignment over in d20, but I haven't seen many people actually posting here in homebrew about what they'd like to do instead; I'm going to try to fill that gap.

I'll be really, really surprised if my ideas haven't been tried before, though I'll be even more surprised if they're completely unoriginal. :smalleek:

Anyways...the goal of a variant alignment system would be to address extant concerns (mine and those of others), as follows:

Overuse/misuse of Detect X as a substitute for investigation.
Unrealistic reductionism of complex ethical systems.There's probably more, but those are the main ones to my mind.
Someday I will make a thread without a bulletted list, but it is not this day.
Anyways:

Natures and Codes:
The Nature & Code system is a way for dungeons masters to incorporate a more complex system of ethics and 'good and evil' into their game, and a way for players to define their characters in ways that are not expressible in the simple terms of normal D&D 'Alignment'. It consists of two equally important parts: a creature or player's nature, and that creature or player's code.
The Nature and Code system replaces and supplants the standard alignment system. If you wish to simplify matters, it is fairly easy to simply use the Nature system on its own, without the Code system; this may prevent many 'abuses of alignment' that might otherwise occur, although it does not provide the role-playing guidelines the Code system is intended to.

Nature: A creature's nature is their natural tendency, the way they react under stress, the most fundamental basis of their ethos. Nature is innate and in most senses, immutable; only the most powerful magic or the most prolonged and profound commitment can change a character's nature.
A creature's nature follows the pattern of Alignment; that is, a creature may be chaotic, evil, good, neutral or lawful in nature, or any pairing of these traits.
In the case of classes or other character options that carry an Alignment requirement, a Nature requirement may be used instead; thus, a person with a chaotic nature that allows them to summon the rage of a Barbarian could maintain that ability (thanks to their fundamentally chaotic Nature) even while behaving lawfully- for instance, acting as a methodically implacable, dedicated stalker of wrongdoers.
The Nature of most creature cannot be percieved by mortal magic; detect spells and similar abilities register a creature's nature only in the case of extraplanar creatures from planes with alignment traits, beings with divine rank, and lifelong servitors or allies of such creatures. Aligned planes are held to be possessed of rudimentary sentience, allowing them to possess a "nature" of their own.
Most of the time, a creature is unaware of their own nature, or at least, unaware that it is of any cosmic significance; they may recognize that they are contemptuous of law or of the 'weakness' of charity, but likely they have their own reasons for doing so.
As a general rule, assume that any creature whose nature cannot be ascertained by detect spells is also immune to other effects dependent on Nature; the mixture of self-image, fundamental characteristics, and perception is so complex in ordinary mortal beings that such magics generally find few and slippery footholds.
With the exceptions of outsiders and deities, a creature's Nature is not a product of their birth. To some extent, upbringing may change a creature's nature (i.e. a "prolonged and profound commitment" to a certain way of life), but for the majority of intents and purposes, a creature's Nature is a product of chance- good individuals arise in evil societies, bad individuals in good.
Only sentient beings (of above-animal intelligence) have Natures.
Most mortal beings are unclear on the precise meaning of any given Nature; while they may have a fuzzy idea that certain principles (i.e. Life) are 'good', and others (i.e. Destruction) are 'evil', etc., the precise application of these principles, and their manifestation in a creature's actions, is a product of Code, not Nature.
While a character may have an evil nature, there is every likelihood they percieve their actions as justified by their Code (and thus 'good'). Good and Evil natures are abstractions based on the viewpoint of the mages who first noted and recorded the variations in essence observable among outsiders; good and evil, in character terms, are relative concepts dependent on culture and perspective, as a matter of course.



Augh. I'm at work, folks....so I have to leave this unfinished for the moment. Be back to present the Code System soonest. In the meantime, tell me what you think of Natures?

Mauril Everleaf
2006-11-17, 01:50 PM
i had a similar (but different) idea concerning alignment. it doesnt usurp the current dnd mainstay of alignment, but just kinda tweaks how it is handled. you may want to check it out here
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27826

Squatting_Monk
2006-11-17, 02:10 PM
Okay, Im assuming that if detect spells can't detect Nature except for in Outsiders, then they will detect Codes instead. However, if the Code can be a justification of an evil nature and thus make it good, will that make detect spells useless by making evil people register as good? I realize I'm getting ahead of you since you haven't finished posting the system, so I apologize if I'm mis-interpreting your intent.

One way of stopping the misuse of detect spells is by putting in restrictions that define use and misuse. I mean, detect evil is there to see if you're evil, no? Why make it so you can't see if someone's evil in order to keep them from abusing the power? All you gotta do is make it so that using a detect evil spell is not a justification for killing someone.

A cultural reason could get in the way. For example, maybe the common people have a fear of magicians, and so magical "evidence" is not accepted as a reason for execution, at the hands of the law or otherwise. Ultimately, you as the DM need to ensure that the player is not simply radar gaming out of laziness. There's no need for complicated rewrites of the alignment system (it's complicated enough as is).

Fax Celestis
2006-11-17, 02:20 PM
A cultural reason could get in the way. For example, maybe the common people have a fear of magicians, and so magical "evidence" is not accepted as a reason for execution, at the hands of the law or otherwise. Ultimately, you as the DM need to ensure that the player is not simply radar gaming out of laziness. There's no need for complicated rewrites of the alignment system (it's complicated enough as is).

Except that there's a distinct possibility of paladin-vigilanteism, in that case.

Squatting_Monk
2006-11-17, 03:02 PM
Except that there's a distinct possibility of paladin-vigilanteism, in that case.

And people tend to not like vigilantes in a well-ordered, which should help to correct that problem. If the society is not well-ordered, then the paladin should have a desire to make it so (due to his lawful alignment), meaning he should curb his own vigilanteism, no? :smallwink:

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2006-11-17, 11:45 PM
Okay, Im assuming that if detect spells can't detect Nature except for in Outsiders, then they will detect Codes instead. However, if the Code can be a justification of an evil nature and thus make it good, will that make detect spells useless by making evil people register as good? I realize I'm getting ahead of you since you haven't finished posting the system, so I apologize if I'm mis-interpreting your intent.

One way of stopping the misuse of detect spells is by putting in restrictions that define use and misuse. I mean, detect evil is there to see if you're evil, no? Why make it so you can't see if someone's evil in order to keep them from abusing the power? All you gotta do is make it so that using a detect evil spell is not a justification for killing someone.

A cultural reason could get in the way. For example, maybe the common people have a fear of magicians, and so magical "evidence" is not accepted as a reason for execution, at the hands of the law or otherwise. Ultimately, you as the DM need to ensure that the player is not simply radar gaming out of laziness. There's no need for complicated rewrites of the alignment system (it's complicated enough as is).
This is a bit premature (still working!) but the idea is as follows: all detect spells, when used against a mortal being, are replaced by a single spell, detect transgressor, which detects an individual who fulfills certain requirements set forth in your Code.

For instance; a Cleric whose primary Code is the Code of Nature and secondary Code is the Code of Faith utilizes Detect Transgressor on an orcish bravo to determine if he has anything to do with the recent dissapearences of village children. The Orc has been closely associating with Abberations (in this case, the Aboleth that's been surviving in the lake) and therefore registers as a transgressor against the Code of Nature- unnatural creatures violate said code, as does cutting short the natural cycle of life by killing children- at least, in the opinion of our Cleric

However, to illustrate the differences in my system- if the Orc has the same Code of Nature, and a secondary Code of Vigor, and used the same spell on our Cleric, the Cleric shows up as a transgressor as well, because the Orc believes that creatures too weak to survive should be sacrificed, naturally, to the strong, and that competition is the only way to maintain the health of a species or a race.

A second example to illustrate another difference; if a PC with the Code of Vigor primary and Code of Self secondary scans the Orc, he gets nothing- no transgressions. The orc believes in strength and is acting for himself, therefore, not a transgressor, even though the PC may strongly disagree with his actions.

Squatting_Monk
2006-11-18, 12:28 AM
Ooo... so it scans to see if they broke your Code. I like it, and the results are vague enough (assuming the spell only shows that they are a transgressor and not how they are a transgressor) to not allow vigilanteism. Sounds good, although it could be a little complex to implement. You need to figure out a good number of Codes, along with the types of things that could set them off.

Post a coupla sample Codes? I'd love to see your thoughts, as I'm liking this so far. :smallsmile:

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2006-11-18, 10:07 AM
Ooo... so it scans to see if they broke your Code. I like it, and the results are vague enough (assuming the spell only shows that they are a transgressor and not how they are a transgressor) to not allow vigilanteism. Sounds good, although it could be a little complex to implement. You need to figure out a good number of Codes, along with the types of things that could set them off.

Post a coupla sample Codes? I'd love to see your thoughts, as I'm liking this so far. :smallsmile:
Yes, that's how it works; it only operates to state they either are transgressors by their very nature (like Abberations and Nature) or have trangressed against your code sometime in the recent past. If you want to know how you're going to need Read Thoughts or some cleverness.

My current draft has twenty-four Codes; each Code entry includes the basic principles that guide the Code's adherants, some samples of things that constitute transgressions against the Code, and multiple play examples to demonstrate various possible interpretations of the Code. The Codes are intended to be ambiguous- that is, the player can have the same Code as another player, but different conditions for transgression based on their individual beliefs, set forth at character creation.

A sample, one I can remember off the top of my head:

Code of Anathema:
Adherants of the Code of Anathema harbor a deep and abiding thirst the destruction of a single individual, or those like him or her; they simply cannot countenance the continued existence of this one object of their black and wrathful despite.
Fundamentally, this Code means your character defines his or her moral self in terms of opposition to something else. This might mean they're rebelling against their parents, their society, or even their own previous self, striving to be as unlike the object of their anathema as possible.

A transgressor against a player's Code of Anathema is any creature that either is actually the specific object of their hate (i.e. the Dread King Jargleflax) or shares certain defined characteristics with that individual (i.e. any creature who engages in large-scale opression of the commonfolk for nefarious ends).

Play Example One:Karwin, a skilled Dwarven tracker, sought to save a village from some unknown menace several years previous, but failed; he arrived too late, and discovered that a tribe of Kobolds lairing in the nearby mountains had sacked the village, leaving few alive, not sparing even children and old men. From that day forward, he has sworn that no 'son of the serpent' shall escape the fury of his axe.
Any scalykin humanoid creature, including, obviously, Kobolds, Yuan-ti, and other scaled humanoids, is a transgressor against Karwin's Code of Anathema. In addition, any creature (scalykin or not) who seeks to directs force against chlidren or others who cannot defend themselves in their homes is a transgressor.

Play Example Two:Magpie Marios, a happy-go-lucky thief and charlatan who plies his trade on the busy streets of a major metropolis, witnessed the ravishment and murder of a young, pretty tavern-wench by soldiers in the employ of the local ruler Duke Felrir when he himself was a mere starveling lad. Following the gaurdsmen with some ill-considered idea of vengeance, he managed to glean from their conversation that the girl had already suffered similar treatment at the hands of the duke himself. Realizing (belatedly) that this was too big for him to right himself, he nonetheless dedicated his whole being to avenging the ever-growing number of victims of the villainous ruler's lusts and whims.
Duke Felrir himself is the most obvious transgressor of Marios' Code of Anathema. In addition, anyone willingly employed with the duke in a position of moderate power (for instance, gaurdsmen, gaolers, and tax collectors, but not stable-hands or scullery maids) is a Transgressor. Marios also holds that anyone who seeks to possess a woman by force, or anyone who abuses their position for selfish ends, violates his Code.

The Code of Anathema is among the most flexible and perhaps most powerful Codes for a player, as it is open to interpretation even more than is usual. A player with the Code of Anathema can function almost like a ranger in some respects, with Transgressors functioning like favored enemies.
To offset the potential for abuse, it is reccomended that DMs and Players agree on some single event or trend in the character's past that caused them to take on the Code of Anathema. Based on this event, they should then select a target for the Code's effects.
The most suitable sorts of targets include single individuals and their compatriots, members of a specific species or easily-identified group of species, or anyone who has commited a specific crime or type of crime.
The Code of Anathema should not be directed against creatures of a specific Nature, as it's unlikely the character can discern Nature by other means.
Care should be exercised that the definition of the character's Anathema is not too broad; 'Trolls and Ogres' or 'Minions of the King of Tora-hral' are acceptable targets, but 'Monsters' and 'Citizens of Tora-hral' are not.

Maglor_Grubb
2006-11-25, 02:54 PM
This is Good! Please post the codes you have typed out, it's realy awesome.

Don Beegles
2006-11-25, 03:24 PM
I'm not going to lie. I like it quite a bit. I, like just about everyone on the boards, agree that Alignment itself is a bit limiting, and I like that you've chosen the route I like to correct it. Rather than trying to change fundamentally objective Alignments so they work, you're making it based on subjective internal judgments, which I like a lot. Someone else, I want to say Zherog, is working on a similar think with Passions and Temptations on the other Gaming board. I suggest you give it a look and swap some notes.