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Ziegander
2013-03-30, 03:04 PM
One of the priorities for my Warblade Reloaded: the Unofficial Official Fighter Fix™ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14954126#post14954126) is the Utility concept where I add or re-purpose powers with skill rank prerequisites that are not just variations on "I hit it!" or "I block its hit!" I've got some cool defensive, detection, mobility, and even swiss army knife utilities so far using stuff like Balance, Concentration, Intimidate, and Jump, but I'm struggling to put the Fighter's full skill list to use.

So, what I'm posting this thread for is some suggestions and advice on directions I could go with for utilities using some more difficult skills. What do you say? Does anyone have any ideas for utilities using Craft or Gather Information? How about Handle Animal? Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering)? Martial Lore? Profession (Soldier)?

eftexar
2013-03-30, 03:47 PM
You could use Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) to disrupt nearby structures and terrain. For example, in a cave you could orchestrate a timed and controlled cave-in.

I would say, for Handle Animal, to add some advanced animal tricks and some minor abilities to augment animals. I wouldn't focus on combat, but things like having a hawk scout for you, convincing mice to eat enemy supplies, or repelling animal attacks.

Martial Lore seems like it could be used to identify if a weapon will be effective, or not, against a particular creature.

I imagine craft could enable an alchemist archetype. Imagine making temporary alchemical items on the fly with a round or two of work.

Gather Information could be used to trick an opponent into giving up information through use of tongue twisters and double meanings.

zegram 33
2013-03-30, 05:42 PM
might be a bit far-fetched, but you could possibly allow gather information simultaneously with "bluff" to feed false information to anyone watching you?

so its like, your asking around about something you arnt interested in, whilst also subtly learning about things you are?
as i say, might be too specific

nonsi
2013-03-30, 05:51 PM
Well, Profession was always an oddball skill. Maybe you could apply it to mass combat & siege weapons in some manner.

Martial Lore: you kind'a buried that one when you nixed the ability to self-train for extra feats, so I don't see a lot you can use that one for.

Craft: allow a fighter with enough ranks to create weapons with pluses, Keen/Vorpal, Mithral/Adamantine/Silver and other features that don't imitate spell effects.

Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering): might synergize with Balance/Climb/Listen/Search/Spot in a dungeon.

Gather Information: can't see how this one would be specifically beneficial to martial characters... unless you apply numerical bonuses vs. foes that are studied in advance.

Morty
2013-03-30, 06:18 PM
Handle Animal could be possibly used to confuse beasts - as in, creatures with animal-level intelligence - you fight by behaving in an unpredictable manner they find off-putting. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's there.

Profession (Soldier) seems to me like a good basis for utilities which enchance teamwork. Even out of combat, when the party is working to solve some sort of problem or obstacle, a trained soldier can make them work together as a team more effectively.

Ziegander
2013-03-30, 06:35 PM
You could use Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) to disrupt nearby structures and terrain. For example, in a cave you could orchestrate a timed and controlled cave-in.

A little far-fetched, especially for a one-shot effect like a utility, but a decent possibility I can look into.


I would say, for Handle Animal, to add some advanced animal tricks and some minor abilities to augment animals. I wouldn't focus on combat, but things like having a hawk scout for you, convincing mice to eat enemy supplies, or repelling animal attacks.

Wow, all good ideas.


Martial Lore seems like it could be used to identify if a weapon will be effective, or not, against a particular creature.

While that sounds pretty niche I just finally came up with at least one good use of Martial Lore for a utility. Identify (as spell) for weapons and armor only. I think I can come up with another one that gives the fighter knowledge of any weapon/material-based vulnerabilities of an enemy. Any other thoughts?


I imagine craft could enable an alchemist archetype. Imagine making temporary alchemical items on the fly with a round or two of work.

It can help, sure. The only utility I can think of at the moment allows a Craft check at extreme speed making a week's worth of progress in a single standard action. Something like that should be able to process simple alchemical items in a turn or two.


Gather Information could be used to trick an opponent into giving up information through use of tongue twisters and double meanings.

Possible. Doesn't seem like an overtly fighter-y thing to do though does it? Hmm...


Well, Profession was always an oddball skill. Maybe you could apply it to mass combat & siege weapons in some manner.

Yeah, maybe.


Martial Lore: you kind'a buried that one when you nixed the ability to self-train for extra feats, so I don't see a lot you can use that one for.

I didn't nix it. It's still there, it's just not the default expression of the bonus feats rules. Still, I know.


Craft: allow a fighter with enough ranks to create weapons with pluses, Keen/Vorpal, Mithral/Adamantine/Silver and other features that don't imitate spell effects.

I'll definitely be allowing this sort of thing. Even explicitly magical effects. You spend money to buy material components of any item you craft anyway, so the fighter simply buys magical components and mundanely crafts magical items without ever casting any spells.


Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering): might synergize with Balance/Climb/Listen/Search/Spot in a dungeon.

Hmm, not a bad idea but aside from +Xs to such skills I can't think of a way for it work...


Gather Information: can't see how this one would be specifically beneficial to martial characters... unless you apply numerical bonuses vs. foes that are studied in advance.

See, that's the sort of thing I had in mind, but now I don't know. That's kind of what the various Knowledge skills are for... maybe I can make one utility that allows a Gather Information check against a monster in place of a Knowledge check to learn specific weaknesses/vulnerabilities as well as give you bonuses? Might work.


Handle Animal could be possibly used to confuse beasts - as in, creatures with animal-level intelligence - you fight by behaving in an unpredictable manner they find off-putting. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's there.

Not too bad, I can work with that I think.


Profession (Soldier) seems to me like a good basis for utilities which enchance teamwork. Even out of combat, when the party is working to solve some sort of problem or obstacle, a trained soldier can make them work together as a team more effectively.

Ah. Perfect. What about Profession (Tinker) or even Profession (Tailor)? :smallamused:

So, guys, what about Knowledge (Geography) and Knowledge (History)? What about Ride? What about Swim?

eftexar
2013-03-30, 06:49 PM
I don't know how far fetched orchestrating a collapse would be for example. It would be a matter of identifying a weak spot in a wall and then striking it.

I do suppose my Gather Information idea was rather unfitting.

Knowledge (Geography) could be used to gain the upper hand in terrain. Like you get 'Specific Advantage A' if fighting an airborn opponent from land, or from water to land, etc.

Knowledge (History) could identify oddly-specific events about an obscure battlefield that might reveal something useful. Like finding an old rusted sword buried somewhere if he's disarmed.

Ride should let you hang onto opponents two or more sizes larger than yourself and use them for cover against themselves. Then they have to shake you off before they can attack you.

Swim could let you do special maneuvers underwater, like jumping out of it like a dolphin, creating a small whirlpool to bullrush adjacent enemies by spinning in a circle, or jetting like a squid.

edit: profession tailor could be used to entangle opponents with their own clothes, embarrass people really badly in bad ways (you know, like dye their shirt pink :smalltongue:), add sequins to their clothes so they can't make hide checks or turn invisible, or slip caltrops in their shoes.

Just to Browse
2013-03-30, 07:18 PM
The Knowledge skills and Profession skills look like things you can plan traps and such with. Perhaps Know(Architecture) lets you make falling debris and Know(Arcana) lets you make powdered circles that turn into walls of force.

zegram 33
2013-03-30, 07:48 PM
history could be all about...tactics and formations.
so say, bolstering fighting within X ft of an ally, and bolstering flank attacks with extra damage or some such

geography could be about terrain effects: negating difficult terrain, possibly making nearby terrain MORE difficult for your enemies or gaining bonuses if they were on it (to simulate driving them into a region of poor footing etc)

Ziegander
2013-03-30, 08:56 PM
Knowledge (Geography) could be used to gain the upper hand in terrain. Like you get 'Specific Advantage A' if fighting an airborn opponent from land, or from water to land, etc.

I'll take a cue from the Horizon Walker PrC, then.


Knowledge (History) could identify oddly-specific events about an obscure battlefield that might reveal something useful. Like finding an old rusted sword buried somewhere if he's disarmed.

Well... that again seems far-fetched. I'll think about it.


Ride should let you hang onto opponents two or more sizes larger than yourself and use them for cover against themselves. Then they have to shake you off before they can attack you.

I already have Wolf Climbs the Mountain. I suppose it couldn't hurt to have an upgraded version.


Swim could let you do special maneuvers underwater, like jumping out of it like a dolphin, creating a small whirlpool to bullrush adjacent enemies by spinning in a circle, or jetting like a squid.

I like the sounds of these. :smallsmile:


edit: profession tailor could be used to entangle opponents with their own clothes, embarrass people really badly in bad ways (you know, like dye their shirt pink :smalltongue:), add sequins to their clothes so they can't make hide checks or turn invisible, or slip caltrops in their shoes.

Maybe I should take a cue from Pathfinder's Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Dirty-Trick) combat maneuver?


Know(Architecture) lets you make falling debris and Know(Arcana) lets you make powdered circles that turn into walls of force.

I think I'll work on the "structural integrity" angle of Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) at some point in the future. Right now I don't know what to do with it, but it's a good idea. The fighter doesn't get Knowledge (Arcane) though.


history could be all about...tactics and formations.
so say, bolstering fighting within X ft of an ally, and bolstering flank attacks with extra damage or some such

Good thought, but should I use Knowledge (History) or Profession (Soldier) for this?


geography could be about terrain effects: negating difficult terrain, possibly making nearby terrain MORE difficult for your enemies or gaining bonuses if they were on it (to simulate driving them into a region of poor footing etc)

Already have this sort of thing with the Leaf on the Wind stance, but maybe it couldn't hurt to add in another couple utilities based on the same principles.

Thanks guys, keep 'em coming! I've already added 1 stance, edited another, and 4 utilities and 1 taxing utility based on the feedback of this thread.

eftexar
2013-03-31, 01:39 AM
Yeah Pathfinder's dirty trick actually seems like it would work fairly well for profession tailer. Any other skills you have in mind in particular?

Andion Isurand
2013-03-31, 03:45 AM
You should bring in the use of the Perform (weapon drill) skill.