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ngilop
2013-04-01, 02:39 PM
Hey everybody, here I am again trying to work on the more eastern themed classes. this time im taking a crack at the Smaurai. I will not let my own bias of loathing twoards samuria ( well to be more accurate what we have turned Samuraa into today) get in the way of creating a good and useable class, my only wish is I get more actual advice, hepful hints and critique than I did with my Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277587)


Samurai
\n\n\t
[tr]
Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
Invocations


[td]1st
+1
+2
+0
+0
Ancestral Armnaments
-


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+0
Staredown
1 Least


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+1
Kiai Strike 1/day
1


4th
+4
+4
+1
+1
Improved Initiative, Voice of Authority
2


5th
+5
+4
+1
+1
Bonus Feat
2


6th
+6
+5
+2
+2
Improved Staredown, Kiai Strike 2/day
3


7th
+7
+5
+2
+2
Resolve
3 Lesser


8th
+8
+6
+2
+2
Iajutsu Master
3


9th
+9
+6
+3
+3
Kiai Strike 3/day, Protective Impetus
4


10th
+10
+7
+3
+3
Mass Staredown
4


11th
+11
+7
+3
+3
Bonus Feat
5


12th
+12
+8
+4
+4
Kiai Strike 4/day
5


13th
+13
+8
+4
+4
Roaring Iajustu
6 Greater


14th
+14
+9
+4
+4
Frightful Presence
6


15th
+15
+9
+5
+5
Kiai Strike 5/day
6


16th
+16
+10
+5
+5
1 Strike 2 Cuts
7


17th
+17
+10
+5
+5
Bonus Feat, Unconquerable
7


18th
+18
+11
+6
+6
Kiai Strike 6/day
8 True


19th
+19
+11
+6
+6
Overwhelming Renown
8


20th
+20
+12
+6
+6
Living Steel
9


Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10
Class Skills
The samurai class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex)
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A Samurai is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light). But not with any shields.

Class Abilities

Ancestral Armnaments {Ex}: All samurai begin play with a masterwork weapon or set of armor. These are weapons or armors that belonged to the samurai’s ancestors, and protecting the item is an important point of honor for the samurai. As a samurai acquires experience adventuring, he has the option of awakening the supernatural abilities latent in the weapon or armor. The values shown on the following table are the total value of sacrifice required to bring a single weapon to the listed weapon bonus. If a samurai already has a +3 weapon, he can raise it to a +4 weapon by sacrificing 13,000 gp and spending 2 hours in meditation. If the same samurai wanted to bring his masterwork armor to a +1 armor, he would have to sacrifice 2,000 gp.

{table=head] Weapon or Armor Bonus |Total Sacrifice Required1 |Required Character Level
+1 |2,000 gp |4th
+2 |6,000 gp |7th
+3 |14,000 gp |9th
+4 |25,000 gp |11th
+5 |38,000 gp |13th
+6* |54,000 gp |14th
+7* |74,000 gp |15th
+8* |96,000 gp|16th
+9* |122,000 gp |17th
+10* |150,000 gp |18th
[/table]
*An item can’t actually have a bonus higher than +5. Use
these lines to determine price when special abilities are added
in. Example: A samurai who has a +4 weapon can transform it
into a +4 thundering weapon with a sacrifice of 29,000 gp, since
thundering is a special ability equivalent to a +2 bonus.
1 Half this amount if the Ancestral Armnament is Armor.

Staredown {Ex}: At 2nd level, a samurai becomes able to strike fear into his foes by his mere presence. He gains a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks and can demoralize an opponent as a move action (as described in the Intimidate skill description, page 76 of the Player's Handbook).

Invocation {Sp}:
Due to the supernatural power of spirits that flows through his body, the samurai possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the energies that suffuses his being. The samurai can use any invocations he knows at-will, with the following qualifications:

The samurai's invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity unless otherwise indicated in it’s description. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. The samurai is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use an invocation if he is hit by an attack while invoking, just as a spellcaster would be. The samurai can choose to use an invocation defensively, by making a successful Concentration check, to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity. The samurai's invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation’s description specifically states otherwise. The samurai's caster level with his invocations is equal to his samurai level. The samurai may dismiss an invocation as a standard action, just as a wizard can dismiss a spell.

The save DC for an invocation (if it allows a save) is equal to 10 + the equivalent spell level of the invocation + the samurai ’s Charisma modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, the samurai cannot benefit from any metamagic feat or the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat and any other feat that affects spell-like abilities. Unlike other spell-like abilities, invocations are subject to arcane spell failure.

The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater and true. The samurai gain knowledge of one least-grade invocation at 2nd level. As the samurai gains levels, he learns new invocations, as shown on the table above. At any level when the samurai learns a new invocation, he may also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same grade or lower. At 7th level, the Primal gains access to lesser invocations; at 12th level, the Primal gains access to greater invocations and at 18th level the Primal gains access to true invocations.

Kiai Strike {Ex}: Once per day, per every 3rd level a samuria can give a great cry during combat that invigorates him. When a samurai shouts (a free action), he gains a bonus on the attack roll and the damage roll equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum +1). In addition the samurai gains this bonus as a dodge bonus to his AC. this ability lasts for 4 rounds.

Improved Initiative: The Samurai gains Improved initiative as a bonus feat.

Voice of Authority {Ex}: At 4th level, the samurai can choose to use Diplomacy as a standard action to alter attitudes and persuade others to act. He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 plus his Charisma modifier (minimum 1).

Bonus Feat: At 5th level and every 6th level afterwards the Samurai gains a bonus feat which can be any feat for which he qualifies.

Improved Stardown {Ex}: The Samurai can now use Staredown as a Swift action.

Resolve {Ex}: At 7th level a samurai gains a bonus to his saves versus fear, charm, and compulsion effects equal to his charisma modifier.

Iajutsu Master {Ex}: At 8th level the samurai deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on his first successful attack after rolling initiative. This extra damage counts as weapon damage for determining damage reduction and is not multiplied on a critical hit. Damage from Iajutsu Master increases by 1d6 at every fourth level thereafter.

Protective Impetus {Ex}: At 9th level allies adjacent to the samurai gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to the samurai's charisma modifer. The samuria does not benefit from his own ability.

Mass Stardown {Ex}: At 10th level, a samurai has sufficient presence that he can cow multiple foes. Using an Intimidate check, the samurai can demoralize all opponents within 30 feet with a single move action.

Roaring Iajustu {Ex}: At 13th level, a samurai’s iaijutsu attack deafens foes upon impact. When a samurai successfully hits with an iaijutsu attack, all foes within 30 feet must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the samurai’s class level + the samurai’s Cha modifier) or be deafened for 1d4 minutes.

Frightful Presence {EX}: A 14th-level samurai's bravery, honor, and fighting prowess have become legendary. When the samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC 20 + samurai's Cha modifier). On a failed save, opponents with Hit Dice lower than the Samurai's class level by four become panicked for 4d6 rounds. Those with Hit Dice within four of the Samurai's class level are shaken for 4d6 rounds. Creatures with more Hit Dice than the samurai has class levels gain a +4 bonus. Those with Hit Dice equal to or greater than the Samurai's class level +5 are not affected. Any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same samurai's frightful presence for 24 hours. This counts as a Terror Effect, in addtion Staredown also counts as a terror effect.

1 Strike 2 Cuts {Ex}: If the attack a samurai makes with his Iajitsu Master bonus damage kills a creature, he retain the bonus damage on the next attack roll he make during this encounter. A samurai can only benefit from this ability once an encounter.

Unconquerable {Ex}: A samurai of 17th level or higher who is reduced to less than zero hit points (but is still alive) no longer takes a point of damage for performing a standard action, as he usually would according to the Diehard feat. Furthermore, he does not die until he is reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to his class level and may continue to perform either a move action or a standard action each round until that point

Overwhelming Renown {Ex}: When a samurai uses his Kiai Shout ability all enemies within 30 feet must make a fortitude save at DC 10 + 1/2 the samurai’s class level + the samurai’s Cha modifier or be dazed for 1d4 rounds.

Living Steel {Su}: At 20th level, the Samurai's bond to their ancestral armnament is so powerful that it transcends time and space, giving the item a life of its own thanks to the ancient spirits. The Samurai may call their ancestral weapon or armor to them as a move action, causing it to appear around the Samurai or in her hands ( as appropriate) regardless of distance. The ancestral item cannot be destroyed by normal, mundane means: short of divine intervention it is indestructible. While wielding their ancestral item, the Samurai enjoys a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls and saving throws. Finally, once per day as a standard action, the Samurai may choose to change the magical enhancements of their ancestral item to better suit their current purpose. For example, if the Samurai is facing a deadly Assassin, he might change his normal "+5 Full-plate of Spell Resistance" into "+5 Full-plate of Major Fortification" to protect himself for sneak attack damage. The new enhancements remain until he chooses again.

Invocations

Least
Armor of the Kami(2nd) +2 bonus to AC, this bonus increases by 1 at 6th level and every 4th level thereafter. AC granted by this Invocation is bypassed by Touch Attacks. This invocation last 1 minute per level.
Bladeweave(2nd) As Bladeweave, but lasting 1 round plus 1 round per level.
Blessing of the Kami(2nd) As Divine Favor, but lasts 3 round plus 1 round per level.
Breath of the Kami (1st) As obscurring mist, but 3 rounds plus 1 round per level.
Bear's Endurance(2nd) As Bear's Endurance, but lasts 3 rounds per level.
Bull's Strength(2nd) As Bull's Strength, but lasts 3 rounds per level.
Call Arms(1st) Summons your acenstral armnaments equipped as a full round action.
Cat's Grace(2nd) As Cat's Grace, but lasts 3 rounds per level.
Eagle's Splendor(2nd) As Eagle's Splendor, but lasts 3 rounds per level.
Empty Mind(2nd) Gain a +2 bonus to will saves for 1 minute per level.
Entropic Shield(1st) As entropic sheild, but lasts 3 rounds per level.
Fox's Cunning(2nd) As Fox's Cunning, but lasts 3 rounds per level.
Growth(1st) As enlarge person, but 3 rounds per level.
Hustle(1st) +10 movement speed for 1 minute per level.
Kami's Distraction (1st) As Phantom Threat, but lasting 1 round for every 3 levels.
Owl's Wisdom(2nd) As Owl's Wisdom, but lastss 3 rounds per level.
Shield Other(2nd) As Shield Other, but lasts 10 minutes per level.
Vigor (2nd) This invocation grants the samurai 5 temporary HP, increasing to 10 at 6th, 15 at 12th and finally 20 and 18th level. These temporary HP last 1 minute.

Lesser
Mesmerizing Presence(4th) As Mesmerizing Glare, but affects all foes within 40 feet.
Burst of Speed(3rd) As Haste, but 3 rounds per level.
Danger Sense(3rd) The samurai gaisn a +4 dodge bonus to AC vs traps as well as a +2 bonus to reflex saves, at 14th level this ability also confers teh uncanny dodge ability. This invocation lasts 1 minute per level.
Death Ward(4th) As Death Watch.
Energy Protection(3rd) This Invocation grants resistance 15 against any attack of whichever one of five energy types you select that deals acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage. This invocation lasts 2 rounds per level.
Kami's Speech(4th) As Voice of the Dragon, but lasting 1 minute per level.
Mark of the Kami(5th) As Mark of Justice.
Prowess(5th) This invocation allows the samurai an additional attack when making a full attack, or with an attack of opportunity. This invocation lasts 1 minute per level.
Restoration(4th) As Restoration.
Earthen Body(4th) As Stoneskin, but at 13 level the DR increases to 15/adamantite and again at 19th to 20/adamantite.
Strength of My Enemy(5th) For 1 full round every attack the samurai makes drains 2 strength from his opponent and the samurai gains the same amount as a perfection bonus to his own strength. This extra strength lasts for 3 rounds per level. The samurai may not use this invocation again untill at least 10 rounds has passed.
Whispers of the Kami(4th) As Divination.
Wrath of the Kami As Rage, but last 3 rounds plus 1 round per level.

Greater
Enstill(6th) The samurai immobolizes the target, unless the target makes a successful fortitude save. This invocation lasts 1 round per level.
Freedom of Movement(4th) As Freedom of Movement, but lasts 5 rounds per level.
Immovability(6th) The samurai gains a +10 bonus on all opposed strength checks made to overrun, bullrsh, trip, or any other attempt to make the samurai move when he does not want to, in addition the samurai gains DR 10/-. This invocation lasts 2 rounds per level.
Invoke Fear(6th) As Fear but the targets suffer a -4 penatly instead of the normal -2.
Kami Blessed Weapon(6th) The samurai's weapon gains +2d8 elemental damage ( acid, cold, electricity, or fire) as well as either holy or unholy as per the repsect alignment component of the samurai. this invocation lasts 1 minute per level.
Power Word: Blind(7th) As Power Word: Blind.
Scream of the Kami(5th) The samurai deals 1d4 point of damage plus 1 per level in a 10 foot radius, the samurai gains the damage done as healing, all excess HP over the samuria maximum are lost. A Will save negates this damage.
Shroud of The Kami(5th) For 3 rounds per level an aura surrounds the samurai, enemies within the aura must make a fortitude save or suffer a -3 penalty to attacks and saves. In addition, the samurai receives a +2 bonus to attacks while this invocation is in effect.
Sight of the Kami(6th) As True Seeing, but lasts 2 rounds per level.
Wall of Blades(5th) As Blade Barrier.


True
Cease (8th) The Samurai immobilizes all enemies within a 20 foot radius, unless they make a successful fortitude save. This invocation lasts 3 rounds plus 1 round per level.
Evil Glare(7th) As Evil Glare.
Power Word: Stun(8th) As Power Word: Stun.
Kami Guardianship(8th) This invocation makes the samurai immune to Hit Point damage for 1 round plus 1 round for every 5th level, any and all other forms of damage affect the samurai as normal, as can non-damageing effect, but the samurai takes no HP damage from any source. The samurai does gain a +4 to saves vs any effect that would cause him harm as well as a +4 bonus to AC while this invocation in in effect.
Repulsion(7th) As Repulsion.
Sadness of the Kami(7th) As Waves of Exhaustion.
Soothe(7th) The samurai partially hypnotizes all enemies within 30 of him. If the targets fail a will save, they are unaware of anything that happens more than 5 feet away from them, if attacked teh target gets another save albeit at a +4 bonus to come out of the soothe state. each seperate attack allows such a new save. This invocation lasts 1 round per every 2nd level.


{{{ for those that do not use Terror Effects, Allow the Samurai an opposed charisma check, and if successful his fear effects bypass fear immunity, you cna use this formula for any class to by pass fear immunity, such as with eftexar's Maleific Horror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208416), or any other such class, or monster or spell ( like for example weird) to overcome fear immunity.}}}

<<<<< Work in progress need a good capstone and a few non combat-ish abilities to fill in some blanks but alas my brain cannot think of any more. >>>>>

Hawk7915
2013-04-02, 01:33 AM
- It'd odd to see a warrior class without Jump and Climb as class skills.

- What's your intended "Tier" for this class? As is, it is a massive upgrade over the C. Warrior but probably still Tier 4.

- Is the Samurai allowed to change the bonuses on their ancestral relic? Or, after making a +1 Goblin-bane Bastard Sword to fight the goblin horde, is he locked into it being Goblin-bane forever (although free to tack on more bonuses)? If you want to limit it, allowing the Samurai to "rearrange" their weapon or armor's bonuses 1/day as a standard action might make a good capstone.

- You save all of 20,000 gold by using your class feature compared to just buying a +10 Weapon...and you actually lose money compared to buying a +10 suit of Plate (or whatever they are proficient in). I'd consider fixing the pricing, especially if you can never change the bonuses.

- What happens if his ancestral item is lost, sundered, or otherwise damaged or taken? Is it irreplaceable? Is there special rules involved with replacing it? Need to clarify that. See the Kensai (Complete Warrior, pg 51) for some ideas.

- Iajitsu Master is limited enough that I think you could make it have a Sneak Attack-style progression, starting at 1st level and increasing every 2-3 levels.

- Spitballing some ideas for other class features...

Imperious Demeanor: You may substitute your Intimidate check for any Bluff or Diplomacy check you make
"Stubborn Reflexes": You add your Charsima modifier to your Initiative checks.
"Life-ending Strike": If the attack you make with your Iajitsu Master bonus damage kills a creature, you retain the bonus damage on the next attack roll you make during this encounter.
"Battle-Sense": Roll initiative twice and take the higher roll.
"Bansai!": May choose to accept an even greater AC penalty while charging to gain bonus Speed/Damage/Attack/Critical Range.
"Folded Steel": May make craft checks to grant some small amount of bonus to allies armor or weapons temporarily.
Varios "defending" class features, like granting bonuses to AC for adjacent allies, having a "Shield Other" effect up, etc.


- If you're looking to up his tier, you might consider...

Adding a maneuver and stance (from Tome of Battle) progression with a unique recovery method, perhaps one based on intimidate checks or killing foes?
Kiai Shout should be per encounter rather than per day.
Kiai Shout should last all encounter, letting the Samurai "single out" a foe and get the bonus to Attack, Damage, and AC until one of them is dead.
Access to multiple ancestral items, like having Armor AND Weapons, and maybe a few wondrous items


EDIT: How about we make this their "capstone" power:

Living Steel (Su): At 20th level, the Samurai's bond to their ancestral relic is so powerful that it transcends time and space, giving the item a life of its own thanks to the ancient spirits. The Samurai may call their ancestral weapon and armor to them as a move action, causing it to appear around the Samurai or in her hands ( as appropriate) regardless of distance. The ancestral item cannot be destroyed by normal, mundane means: short of divine intervention it is indestructible. While wielding their ancestral item, the Samurai enjoys a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls and saving throws. Finally, once per day as a standard action, the Samurai may choose to change the magical enhancements of their ancestral item to better suit their current foe. For example, if the Samurai is facing a deadly Assassin, she might change her normal "+5 Full-plate of Spell Resistance" into "+5 Full-plate of Major Fortification" to protect herself for sneak attack damage. The new enhancements remain until she chooses again.

unbeliever536
2013-04-07, 07:40 PM
Before I start, you're missing Weapon/Armor proficiency and starting gold. I'd recommend giving both as fighter, minus Tower Shield prof.


(suggested rewrites will be in italics)


Ancestral Armnaments {Ex}: All samurai begin play with a masterwork weapon or set of armor. These are weapons or armors that belonged to the samurai’s ancestors, and protecting the item is an important point of honor for the samurai. As a samurai acquires experience adventuring, he has the option of awakening the supernatural abilities latent in the weapon or armor. The values shown on the following table are the total value of sacrifice
required to bring a single weapon to the listed weapon bonus. If a samurai already has a +3 weapon, he can raise it to a +4 weapon by sacrificing 13,000 gp and spending 2 hours in meditation. If the same samurai wanted to bring his masterwork armor to a +1 armor, he would have to sacrifice 2,000 gp.

{table=head] Weapon or Armor Bonus |Total Sacrifice Required |Required Character Level
+1 |2,000 gp |4th
+2 |6,000 gp |7th
+3 |15,000 gp |9th
+4 |28,000 gp |11th
+5 |42,000 gp |13th
+6* |64,000 gp |14th
+7* |80,000 gp |15th
+8* |112,000 gp|16th
+9* |142,000 gp |17th
+10* |180,000 gp |18th
[/table]
*An item can’t actually have a bonus higher than +5. Use
these lines to determine price when special abilities are added
in. Example: A samurai who has a +4 weapon can transform it
into a +4 thundering weapon with a sacrifice of 36,000 gp, since
thundering is a special ability equivalent to a +2 bonus.


I like where you are going with this ability, but I have a few problems with it. First off, what determines the cost of the weapon/armor (minus mwk cost)? Does the character get it for free? Is it paid out of starting gold (in which case any armor heavier than scale is right out)?

Second, how do you deal with abilities that just cost X gold, not a +X bonus-equivalent? Can the samurai just not add those?

Third, and most important, you're charging double for upgrading the armor. Magic armor bonus cost scales as 1000*{bonus}^2, magic weapon bonus is twice that. There is no reason right now for me to take an ancestral armor.

Also, just a suggestion, perhaps you could give the samurai the ability to re-choose weapon/armor special abilities? That makes the samurai's ancestral weapon/armor distinctly better than anything he can buy, which seems to be what you're going for.



Staredown {Ex}: At 2nd level, a samurai becomes able to strike fear into his foes by his mere presence. He gains a +4 bonus on Intimidate checks and can demoralize an opponent as a move action (as described in the Intimidate skill description, page 76 of the Player's Handbook).


This is fine for level 2, but see below.



Kiai Strike {Ex}: Once per day, starting at 3rd level a samurai can give a great cry during combat that invigorates him. When a samurai shouts (a free action), his next attack gains a bonus on the attack roll and the damage roll equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum +1). In addition, the samurai gains this bonus as a dodge bonus to his AC for 4 rounds. This ability may be used one additional time per day at every Samurai level divisible by three.


You should probably add more uses to this (or just give it a cooldown). Also see my iajutsu critique.



Improved Initiative: The Samurai gains Improved initiative as a bonus feat.


I'd give this a lot earlier, probably first level.



Bonus Feat: At 5th, 11th, and 17th level the Samurai gains a bonus feat which can be any feat for which he qualifies.


I'd suggest giving a limitted list of feats, just for flavor reasons. I'm not sure exactly what you want out of your samurai, though, so I'm not sure what those should be.



Improved Staredown {Ex}: The Samurai can now use Staredown as a Swift action. At


By this point in the game, "shaken" is not a particularly strong condition. I would add this to the ability:

In addition, any time the Samurai wins the opposed Staredown roll by 10 or more, the opponent is frightened instead of shaken.

This allows the Samurai to scare off weak opponents without too much trouble. You might also want to consider increasing the penalties from the regular Staredown effect.



Resolve {Ex}: At 7th level a samurai gains a bonus to his saves versus fear, charm, and compulsion effects equal to his charisma modifier.


This is coming in way late, and it's not very powerful. I would suggest making it CHA + 1/2 Samurai levels and giving it at around level 4.



Iajutsu Master {Ex}: At 8th level the samuria deals an addition 1d6 points of damage for every 4th samurai level on his first successful attack in an encounter. This extra damage counts as weapon damage for determining damage reduction and is not multiplied on a critical strike.


Rewrite this as follows for clarity, and add damage increases to the table:
Iajutsu Master {Ex}: At 8th level the samuria deals an additional 2d6 points of damage on his first successful attack after rolling initiative. This extra damage counts as weapon damage for determining damage reduction and is not multiplied on a critical hit. Damage from Iajutsu Master increases by 1d6 at every later Samurai level divisible by four.

Also, consider swapping the damage from Iajutsu Master and Kiai Shout and bringing Iajutsu Master down to a lower level. Right now, Kiai Shout is quite weak, and Iajutsu Master is only once per encounter. Iajutsu Master doesn't need to be especially strong, it just needs to drop a mook or get a little extra damage on the BBEG. Kiai Shout, though, needs a big buff.



Mass Stardown {Ex}: At 10th level, a samurai has sufficient presence that he can cow multiple foes. Using an Intimidate check, the samurai can demoralize all opponents within 30 feet with a single move action.


I like this, but I'd drop the level by a bit. Maybe bring it down to 7 or so.



Frightful Presence {EX}: A 14th-level samurai's bravery, honor, and fighting prowess have become legendary. When the samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 feet must succeed on a Will save (DC 20 + samurai's Cha modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if they have 4 or more fewer Hit Dice than the samurai) or shaken for 4d6 round. Creatures with up to more Hit Dice than the samuria +4 gain a +4 bonus, those with Hit Dice equal to or greater than the Samurai's hit dice +5 are not affected. Any foe that successfully resists the effect cannot be affected again by the same samurai's frightful presence for 24 hours. This counts as a Terror Effect, in addtion Staredown also counts as a terror effect.


First off, do you mean Fear Effect? If not, please explain what a "Terror Effect" is.

This is the beginning of a great high level ability, except that many, many enemies at high levels are immune to fear. I would suggest giving the Samurai some way to bypass that immunity. As well, this should key to class level, not hit dice. The other thing I worry about is that by this level many creatures have significantly more hit dice than their CR. Also, for clarity, the middle bit should probably be:

When the samurai draws his blade, opponents within 30 feet must make a Will save (DC 20 + samurai's Cha modifier). On a failed save, opponents with Hit Dice lower than the Samurai's class level by four become panicked for 4d6 rounds. Those with Hit Dice within four of the Samurai's class level are shaken for 4d6 rounds. Creatures with more Hit Dice than the samurai has class levels gain a +4 bonus. Those with Hit Dice equal to or greater than the Samurai's class level +5 are not affected.


As for things to add, I see a lot of CHA based debuffs in this class's future. Something to cut AC and saves, maybe stun/daze foes at the beginning of the encounter. Historical Samurais were skilled archers as well as melee fighters, so you might want to consider some abilities that go in that direction (though none of the damaging abilities you have now are keyed to melee, so it might not be necessary). Given that he's so fear-based, you might want to give him full immunity at some point as well. Outside of combat, I see him as a main "face," especially with nobility. That means ways to boost a diplomacy check, and possibly some kind of support resource attached to the class. I'm afraid I can't think of a capstone at the moment, though.

Right now your Samurai can expect to end encounters in a single round or struggle through a long and dangerous fight without even fighter feats to work with. He needs a way to be useful after the first round. The first step for that is improving Kiai shout. After that, I'd suggest giving him a way to make himself the center of attention, similar to what the PH2 Knight can do.

ngilop
2013-04-07, 09:48 PM
A terror effect is really simple. To sum it up it is a fear effect only it still effects things that are immune to fear. SO a lot of things immune to fear at the level are still affected by Terror effects.

I am thinking on making kiai shout last 4 rounds and get rid of the bonus dmg to attack and damage on first attack. That would not disrupt things and allow him more 'sustainability' in fights.

I like your iajustu master correction, will add it in.

I liek your daze suggestion, will add that in as well.

I like your suggestion for a capstoen hawk and will be putting it in.

I think some of the defensive abilties would be great, i def need soe,thing(s) at 13,16, 19, levels that are level appropiate of course.

I think letting give theri Cha to adjacent allies as a dodge bonus would be neat to slap on at level 9

Silvernale
2013-04-07, 11:23 PM
After many years of playing Legend of the Five Rings I would like to put in some flavor:

* Samurai is a social caste, not a profession. I would rename this to Bushi. Samurai can also be priests (shugenja), cavalier (kishi) or courtiers (I'd call them rogues).
* The samurai considered 7 weapons to be the most noble (katana, wakizashi, tanto, daikyu, nodachi, yumi, yari). They are loathe to use others unless required.
* The o-yoroi (great armor) is primarily scale, lamellar and brigandine, making it medium armor IIRC.
* I don't care what D&D has traditionally done, the katana is NOT a bastard sword. It is a masterwork longsword with a long enough grip for 2 hands. A katana is 3-4 pounds while a bastard sword is usually double that.

ngilop
2013-04-08, 12:01 AM
thats funny that your definiton fo what a katana is is what a bastard sword is as well.. a hand and ahalf sword is just that different cultures have different names for weapons

and I might be wrong here but I am pretty sure samuria were warriros.

and your help is anythnig but, ist msotly just you gripping about how samurai are presented. Giving weapons japanese names don't make them any different a yari is a spear. and a spear is a spear.

and that noble BS is mostly that romantized crap that came about in during the tokugawa period, before that samuria didn;t really do this honor before death and retreat stuff, read up on it, and you will find accounts of armies retreating and other such ' non honorable' action that were performed by samurai countless times.

its just whne you have peace and no wars what is a warrior going to do, oh yeha.. sit down and writ eup a bunch of crazy rules to make it seem like you sucha cool guy.. Knights did it, crusaders did it, and so did conquistadors.. Its just sicne eastern culture is relatively unknown in the west the non 'popular' version of the samuria is next to non-existant in the minds of everybody.

and great armor is the most part laquered wood. not really the best armor in the world.. were katanas well made, yes but they were more like a GIANT striahgt edge razor than what we think of when we think of how a sword is used.

if you want me to put up completely different weapons for samurai just becuase they have different names then i guess i have to include a spatha, gladius, shillelagh and other such nonsense and thatw ould bog down any rule book in the world with probably 400+ pages of weapons, where you could just say short sword. and be done with it.

eftexar
2013-04-08, 12:26 AM
While a lot of what you say, ngilop, is true the Katana is most certainly completely different than a bastard sword. Samurai did often wear lamellar, but the armor is very similar to scale mail or banded mail, probably inferior, and it would be pointless to stat it out.

While most other japanese weapons have medieval analogies, such as the yari and spear, that are close enough, others, such as the katana and shuriken, do not.

Some differences between a katana and a bastard sword:
A katana only has one side to the blade that is used while the bastard sword has two. Meanwhile the katana slides from the sheathe quicker than a bastard sword and is much lighter than it.

The hilt of a bastard sword is much heavier and while they could both be swung two handed a bastard sword was more apt for breaking through plated armor, while a katana would have trouble doing so.

When you get into even more specific details, the katana is forged to be flexible, while a bastard sword is not. I'm fairly certain a katana would break if it was struck from the straight edge hard enough. A katana was not used to block another sword blow like a bastard sword might, but was meant to deal death before someone could even draw their sword.

Meanwhile the edge of a katana was sharper than most swords. While we likely wouldn't do this in D&D, the katana should deal more damage to unarmored opponents, because they didn't have to worry about armor. Most warriors in japan simply didn't could afford armor to defend themselves, so finesse was better than strength.


In D&D terms it should have a higher hardness, be finessable, and have a better critical range/threat, but deal less damage and be more difficult to sunder with.


edit:

But I do understand your frustration. People tend to think along the lines of the wushu movies and anime too much. And most of their capabilities have more to do with superior training than the weapon they weld.

A warrior in Europe was just defending himself or his lord after working for days in the fields (or yelling at those peasants instead if he was a noble), while in Japan it was literally a career, in many cases, to defend theirs.

Still even if the Katana wasn't so different, certain things are iconic enough that you should stat them out if you are doing oriental flavor. A scoundrel and a rogue fill the same role, but the former has images of swashbuckling pirates and the second has me thinking cat burgler or assassin.


edit 2:

But onto the actual class. It still seems pretty weak to me. I always disliked class features that make you pay for them in that they don't really feel like features at all to me.
Just give them the enhancement bonus with any weapon they are proficient with or allow them to attune to a weapon. If you don't want it to me magical then explain it away as them being really skilled.

Kiai strike starts off better than the Paladin's Smite, but quickly lags behind. Just make the damage equal to level.

The Terror effect thing is just weird. I really don't get it and on top of that it lends to the rocket race worse than just overcoming immunities.
I think making it a fear effect and then allowing an opposed charisma check, with an additional ability, to overcome their immunity would work better. It also wouldn't invalid the feature of being immune fear entirely and make people like this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208416) be completely like "But I'm the master of fear, lol what!?"

Silvernale
2013-04-08, 03:13 PM
thats funny that your definiton fo what a katana is is what a bastard sword is as well.. a hand and ahalf sword is just that different cultures have different names for weapons

and I might be wrong here but I am pretty sure samuria were warriros.

and your help is anythnig but, ist msotly just you gripping about how samurai are presented. Giving weapons japanese names don't make them any different a yari is a spear. and a spear is a spear.

and that noble BS is mostly that romantized crap that came about in during the tokugawa period, before that samuria didn;t really do this honor before death and retreat stuff, read up on it, and you will find accounts of armies retreating and other such ' non honorable' action that were performed by samurai countless times.

its just whne you have peace and no wars what is a warrior going to do, oh yeha.. sit down and writ eup a bunch of crazy rules to make it seem like you sucha cool guy.. Knights did it, crusaders did it, and so did conquistadors.. Its just sicne eastern culture is relatively unknown in the west the non 'popular' version of the samuria is next to non-existant in the minds of everybody.

and great armor is the most part laquered wood. not really the best armor in the world.. were katanas well made, yes but they were more like a GIANT striahgt edge razor than what we think of when we think of how a sword is used.

if you want me to put up completely different weapons for samurai just becuase they have different names then i guess i have to include a spatha, gladius, shillelagh and other such nonsense and thatw ould bog down any rule book in the world with probably 400+ pages of weapons, where you could just say short sword. and be done with it.

1 - Don't ask for critique if you are going to just blast any you get.
2 - I don't know where you are referencing "nobility" from, but I was talking about the weapons samurai PREFERRED. AKA their starting proficiencies.
3 - Yes a xiphos and a gladius are pretty much shortswords, but a katana is not like anything else found in the world. Even a scimitar or saber, even though they are curved, aren't even close.
4 - If you don't want to use Japanese weapon names, then why bother making up a Japanese character class. You might as well change kiai to "I scream at joo".
5 - Armor was traditionally laquered leather or metal. Google for black sand iron.

ngilop
2013-04-10, 08:39 AM
Ok I am thinking of giving the samurai invocations.

To differentiate between the fighter and the samurai. I would not give that many over all 20 levels im thinking something like start at level 2 and max out at 9 at level 20.

anyways what do you think, I decidoed to forgo trying to be historically accurate and decide to toss in some myths of samurai so giving them like.. enlarge person as an invocation, and maybe like long strider, haste, and the various buff spells?

ngilop
2013-04-12, 08:14 PM
there added in some invocations, I really need 2 or 3 more True invocations as well as 1 or 2 more Greater ones, so any helpful ideas for those would be nice.

ngilop
2013-04-14, 02:20 PM
whew.. ok after a lot fo thought I think i inlcuded a nice amount of invocations that cover a nice array of abilities.

So, this is my final rough draft hopefully I bumped the samuria up to 'tier' 3 or high 'tier'4

any and all suggestions on how to make this class a bit better are welcome, but please refrain from complaingin abotu how samuria are treated in popular culture and how the katana as a bastard sword is BS (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20)

eftexar
2013-04-14, 05:16 PM
Looking much better with the invocations, but I'm going to re-post my previous peach since I feel like you read my mention of a certain sword and just ignored the rest without even reading it:


But onto the actual class. It still seems pretty weak to me. I always disliked class features that make you pay for them in that they don't really feel like features at all to me.
Just give them the enhancement bonus with any weapon they are proficient with or allow them to attune to a weapon. If you don't want it to me magical then explain it away as them being really skilled.

Kiai strike starts off better than the Paladin's Smite, but quickly lags behind. Just make the damage equal to level.

The Terror effect thing is just weird. I really don't get it and on top of that it lends to the rocket race worse than just overcoming immunities.
I think making it a fear effect and then allowing an opposed charisma check, with an additional ability, to overcome their immunity would work better. It also wouldn't invalid the feature of being immune fear entirely and make people like this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208416) be completely like "But I'm the master of fear, lol what!?"

And I believe there is also the Dread Witch somewhere in core.


And Silvernale has a point. Just because you don't agree with the whole thing doesn't mean you should flip out and get angry. It's a common opinion and you should expect to hear it.

The katana was different and that has nothing to do with the views of it in popular culture. At least read up on how a katana was crafted and used before you dismiss it out of revulsion just because you are tired of seeing it posted everywhere.

I'm not going to reiterate my earlier post, but if you disagree then please state why and defend it. And then we can just agree to disagree and be civil about the whole thing.

ngilop
2013-04-14, 06:52 PM
SO.. i should just get rid of ancestral armnament all together then?


becuase teh way it is set up is you sacrifice some valuable to re-awakle teh spirits of your ancestors in your weapon/armor i wanted it to be a little bit behind what the nomrla cost for a weapon si but not so much that going samurai basically nets you a free weapon/armor

i guess I can maybe lower the cost of the sacriice again

well in my homebrewed world your linked class would eventually have Terror effects to probably a bit earleir than they show up amongst the vast majority of monsters and class abilities

my point with silvenale was she gave absolutly ZERO critqiue she just basically griped about how samuria are depcited now and crap about katanas that have zero to do with my class..

and I know how a katan was used again like i said in my rebuttal to silvernales whine post about BS crap i said the katan was used as basically a giant razor and was drawn across teh body not with the thrust/hack/parryiong we see today in how katanas are presneted again that is a romanticized version of things

and in D&D terms a katana IS a atdars sword. i try to leave the real world OUT of D&D as much as a can excpt for a basis on what to establish things else D&D seriosuly fails to exist and falls apart very very early on in any game. it is a sword that can be wielding with one or two hands, but mostly seen being used 2 handed.

I wuld recommed that silvernale read writing jurnal sand other such from the Heian period or other such

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/traditional-martial-arts-training/kendo/samurai-facts-vs-samurai-myths-and-legends-2/

http://realfighting.tumblr.com/post/385069378/myths-about-the-samurai

and it wasn't untill the mid 12th century that Samurai and bushi were related and the samuria could be what we would consider 'noble'

im not so much getting angry at her, but that i just get soo fruatrated when sombody opos into my own or anybody else homebrew and then goes off on a tangent that has zero to do with the thread in quesiton. anywhere form how one could do betyter but that is literall all they say wo how the hate how a partciular sword is reprenseted in works of fiction

eftexar
2013-04-14, 07:33 PM
I would say that you're fine leaving ancestral armaments in, just without the excessive cost for a class feature. If you don't want to give it for free I would say to at least half it so it really does feel like you are gaining something and not just gaining a bit of a discount.

Ah, I apologize. I hadn't realized you were making this class specifically for your own homebrew world. Terror effects make a little more sense now that I know that. You should probably note that somewhere easily noticeable and leave a spoilered note, for an alternative for those of us not using those rules, underneath the class ability.

Sorry, I just got a little irritated because of how you come off and I guess it also annoys me a little when people dismiss the katana out of hand. But you aren't telling me anything I don't know about oriental history. It's like Ninja's totally wore black :smallcool:. I mean that's accurate, right? right?

Silvernale
2013-04-14, 08:00 PM
*sigh*

It took me a few read-throughs to decipher what you said, but I never griped or whined. You asked for critique so I offered some suggestions to give your build some Japanese "flavor". You are the one whining over it. Furthermore, I have read dozens of books on Japanese history since it was part of my college major.

Now on topic, you should drop the gold cost of ancestral weapons since samurai of all professions didn't care a whit about cash. Everything they needed was provided by their daimyo (feudal lord). Broke your sword? Your lord has his smiths make you a new one. Need a new horse? He provides you one. Giving cash to your ancestor spirits is frankly very crass. It would make more sense to sacrifice XP or hit points as a "spiritual" offering to strengthen the bond with your ancestors.

Invocations, being magic, make little sense on a warrior. If you want to better capture a bushi's training, why not try stances and maneuvers. I believe those are in Pathfinder Ultimate Combat or something like that.

Most of the other abilities seem fairly ok except the level 20 ability. That feels more like some hong kong wire-fu silliness than something I would attribute to samurai.

ngilop
2013-04-14, 08:26 PM
there I added in a way to adapt a terror effect for other who do not use such a rule or whatnot in their own worlds and even used examples in the case of a class ( your maleific horro) and spells ( weird)


I lowered to ancenstral armnament sacrifice cost.

I decided to give Samurai invocations to differenatate them form fighters in my world. if you took a look at myninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277587) youd see that i went with a supernatural feel for that too, to distuingish them ffrom rogues. and sicne i already did invocations for my monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266100) (so far my monk is the best homebrew ive done in my own opinion)

Ive decided to give the 'eastern' classes a bit of a supernatural edge in repsects to their mythologies, and so handing out invocations to a samurai to me is perfectl acceptable.

ngilop
2013-04-29, 07:32 PM
There finally did the weapon and armor proficiencies as well as addd in a few more invocations to round out the Samurai.

again any constructive and helpful criticism is appreciated exspecailly for my other oriental flavored Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277587) that nobody seems to want to actualy critique just post about things that have zero to do with the class and what is or is not wrong with it