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Altair_the_Vexed
2013-04-01, 04:13 PM
I'm doing some research for an article on randomisation in RPGs - and I'd like the help of the good folk of the Playground! (Bad folk too, I'm not fussy.)

I've got some inter-related questions that I'd like to get ans many answers for as possible. Please feel free to elaborate around the topic too!

When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

Thanks!

EDIT: Now that there are a lot of answers below, I should say that it'll be most helpful if you try to think of your own answers before you read everyone else's.

Paragon468
2013-04-01, 04:21 PM
I'
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?


1: I usually feel a bit anxious, as I'm waiting to find out the results of my success (what did I find with my perception, how much damage did I deal, etc.)
2: If it results in me losing hit points, I feel helpless. Any other time I feel like I wasted my turn.
3: I feel like the DM is throwing overpowered NPCs at me... again.
4: I feel kind of suspicious, because it didn't give me any input on the power-level of the NPC, trap, or spell that I was rolling against.
5: When I do.
6: Depends. When it's a % roll, I feel that its fair. When it's an attack, or opposed roll, I feel like the DM might be tweaking things.

ClockShock
2013-04-01, 05:04 PM
1. achievement / success / that I have some control over events (I aimed for X to happen, and it did)
2. powerless / at the mercy of others (other characters, other events)
3. cheated / my good work has been for nothing
4. relieved / glad I didn't miss something easy
5. when I roll (it's my success as well as my character's)
6. when the GM rolls ("I might have rolled better")

note, for question's 3 and 4 I'm assuming that the rolls are made in the order described, or simultaneously. Alternatively;

7. The GM rolls high first, and I roll slightly lower: This feels justified, like there's no failure when it was a difficult attempt.
8. I roll low first, and the GM rolls slightly lower: I feel fortunate, like I've gotten away with something.

Totally Guy
2013-04-01, 05:46 PM
What does the game say a success means? What does the game say a failure means?

If the game says that we set stakes, I like success as the effects of the dice roll have already been communicated to me. I know what I've won and what I've still got to play for.

If the game doesn't give much guidance (or leaves it entirely to the GM) on what a success is then it always feels a bit arbitrary. I don't really care so much.

The are plenty of things a game might say are incorporated into success. When rerolls are appropriate, who gets to describe something, etc.

If the game says that failure screws me over either with stake setting or giving GM explicit permission to REALLY hurt me in just the right way, then I tend to really like it.

If the game says that a failure means that nothing happens then I get dissatisfied that things I'm doing aren't giving me any meaningful feedback.

If the game leaves it to the GM without any real guidance I get dissatisfied that the GM led consequences feel a bit arbitrary.

And if the game says one thing and the GM decides to do something else... I'm not going to be satisfied with that either.

You can still have fun without satisfaction. But it's not as satisfying. [/tautology]

AttilaTheGeek
2013-04-01, 06:23 PM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

1. If you define "good numbers" as 15-16 on a d20, I feel accomplished because I was able to achieve my goal. But if you define "good numbers" as a natural 20, I feel excited to see how much more awesome the result is than what I was attempting.

2. If I roll a 3 or a 4 (again, on a d20), I feel anxious to see how badly I failed and whether or not the character's failure was bad enough to have consequences. However, when I roll a 1, I know that whatever is about to happen to me will be hilariously bad.

3. I also feel suspicious of the GM fiat-ing it, especially if I roll a solid 13 or 14. However, if I roll around a 4, it's understandable that I would lose an opposed roll.

4. This one really depends on whether or not the GM rolls behind a screen. If I win the opposed roll with a low number (say, a 6 or a 7) and the GM's roll is hidden, then he/she very clearly wanted me to succeed. However, if I win with a high roll, like an 18 or 19, then it seems natural that I should win.

5. Again, it depends on whether or not there's a screen.
5a. If the GM is rolling dice for me behind a screen, I don't feel good about success because the GM wanted me to succeed.
5b. If the GM rolls for me in the open, I'd be offended. There's no reason for a GM to do that unless he/she thinks I'm cheating.

6. Whether or not the GM's rolls are hidden, I feel better about failure when I roll the dice. Either there's a screen, I hear a roll, I'm told I failed, and I feel like the GM decided I couldn't do it, or there's no screen and I'm offended as to why the GM doesn't trust me to roll my own dice. In contrast, when I fail because of a bad roll I feel like it was honest chance. Though perhaps it should be known that I'm super paranoid about rolling. For example, I always cast True Strike before a Disintegrate because there's nothing worse than rolling a 1 and hitting a party member who has a bad fort save.

By the way, these are really interesting questions. They've all made me think about my feelings towards dice in new ways. I can't wait for a link to the article when it's done!

oxybe
2013-04-01, 06:44 PM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

1) truth be told, i really don't care much about the value rolled, mainly because i know my chances of rolling any given number. a 20 doesn't really excite me more then a 6 unless a number is given a significant meaning.

in D&D's combat, a 20 means a crit & auto-hit. woo hoo! any other time i could care less if i rolled a 9 or a 16 since for the most part i don't know the target number i'm aiming for. while i do know "higher is better", i have just as much chance of rolling either, but all else considered, until i'm told of success or failure, the number rolled is irrelevant to me.

2) as for any instance of rolling badly, i just shrug it off. depending on the success rate of my rolls (IE: to i need to roll in the 14-16 range to succeed on average or in the 6-8 range) though might make me think that either
A) the game relies far too much on luck over character/player skill
B) my character simply is underpowered

the more it leans towards A the less i get interested in the game as the player's most important thing to do is not choose an action to take, but rather roll a die.

3) shrug. stuff happens? if the gm simply rolls a bigger on-dice number then me, then it's just luck being luck in a game that places a high importance on luck. of course i'll be miffed because i "lost" but the action of rolling and the numbers rolled are irrelevant to this... it's the whole "i failed my action" rather then "i rolled a 17".

4) shrug. if the gm rolls badly and i roll good then it's, again, luck being luck. it's hard to place importance on something you have little control over. like the reverse, i'm more happy that my action succeeded then the GM rolling a 2.

while i understand that the randomization process had a hand in the success, i don't place much value on blind luck.

5-6) i really don't care about either as long as the dice rolling is kept consistent on who rolls what and when.

personally i prefer actions that are resolved without dice rolls, where player and character skill trump dice rolling, and luck is only in play when actually required rather then be a large determining factor.

Geostationary
2013-04-01, 11:44 PM
If you're looking at randomization in rpgs, what about diceless or nonrandom systems? For example- Nobilis utilizes blind bidding, Dread uses a Jenga tower, and I know several systems make use of playing cards of some description. While common, dice are not the be-all end-all of randomization in rpgs.

sktarq
2013-04-02, 12:08 AM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

1) Was it at a plot critical point? Did it produce a neat visual of an attack or save or whatnot? With disappointment if it didn't since didn't add to a big step forward in the game or entertainment.
2) See above. but with slight disappointment if it didn't add to the fun of the game.
3) Slightly irked if it just passes off but thrilled if well translated into action description.
4) Embarrassed
5) When I do - The tactile involvement and energy or sitting up- pre-roll silly rituals all add to the fun of the game for me as a player (but not as a DM or ST)
6) When the DM/ST does- nagging subconscious says I could have rolled better.

Really most of my reactions are based on the storyteller descriptions of the action not the result of the dice. If the storyteller is just reading off the resulting numbers and saying you hit, you miss, roll damage, you kill him etc I may as well have played Battleship. A run of good or bad rolls can have an effect but really if things are well described and it adds to the fun then I don't care about the results of any particular roll, as long as the game moves forward and my character survives (Building new personalities can take significant mental effort which I do dislike having to do over again-also I really like playing my character from 1st level)

Logic
2013-04-02, 12:12 AM
I'm doing some research for an article on randomisation in RPGs - and I'd like the help of the good folk of the Playground! (Bad folk too, I'm not fussy.)

I've got some inter-related questions that I'd like to get ans many answers for as possible. Please feel free to elaborate around the topic too!

When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll poorly but better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

Thanks!

Red text mine, as I assume that was the intent.

1. I feel good to varying degrees, directly correlating story importance or consequences. (character death on the line = VERY GOOD)
2. I feel bad to varying degrees, directly correlating story importance.
3. Most of the time I shrug it off, but sometimes this feels like I was cheated.
4. Most of the time I feel just lucky. I usually roll before the DM, so when his result comes back as worse than mine, I am relieved the dice have favored me.
5. I feel better when the dice are in my hand. Though I have no more control than when the DM does it feels like I make a difference. (assuming no DM FIAT or dice fudging by either party)
6. See the above question for my answer.

chaos_redefined
2013-04-02, 01:07 AM
Going with 3.5 here, as that's most of my experience.

1 and 2: For attack rolls, I don't blink an eye on a success, while I feel bad on a fail. (In other words, I'm expecting to hit, and if I don't, then it's like being promised something for christmas and getting nothing). SR, however, I feel like better on a success than when I succeed on an attack roll. I do feel worse on a failure, but that's more to do with the power of spells typically...

For damage rolls on something where all I'm getting is the damage on the dice (so, fireball and the like), then good/bad if I roll high/low. I'm expecting average. For damage rolls where I'm after some other effect, or there is a massive modifier to the damage (so, power attacking or damage+status), then i generally don't care about the damage.

For saving throws, I'm generally expecting to fail, so I feel like I dodged a bullet when I succeed.

For skill checks, if I'm the only one making it, see attack rolls if I have a high bonus, or saving throws if I have a low bonus. If there are multiple people making it and all we need is one success (e.g. Spot/Listen when acting as bodyguards), then I feel less significant if other people succeed, regardless of my result. If there are multiple people making the same skill check, but each person gets rewards/penalties based on their own results (e.g. party is climbing a cliff), then I feel better if I dodge the bullet than I would if I was doing it on my own. ("At least that wasn't me" - kinda mindset) Then I realize I usually have to dig them out of whatever mess they just got themselves into...

3+4: If I roll well, and the DM rolls badly but has massive bonuses (e.g. grappling a wizard), then I feel like my roll was a wasted effort. (False hope kinda idea) If we both roll well or both roll poorly, then its similar to 1+2. If I roll poorly and the DM rolls well, but has penalties to the roll, then I feel awesome (what's the reverse of false hope?).

5+6: Me rolling = DM rolling in public > DM rolling in secret. If the DM rolls in secret, I'm less certain that I succeeded/failed rather than the DM fudging things to make it so that I succeeded/failed.

Siosilvar
2013-04-02, 02:48 AM
In general, I couldn't care less about dice results. I get excited when I manage to succeed at a long shot, and I'm a bit disappointed when I succeed at something that should be easy, but beyond that the consequences of the action are more important than the numbers I roll. If I roll high on an opposed check and the GM succeeds anyway, I know I'm out of my weight class, but I don't attach a whole lot to whether or not my character does everything I intended them to do.

What minimal emotion I do attach to a roll is amplified when I roll it instead of someone else, due to feeling like I have control (even though that's complete bunk). In either case, involvement makes the experience more participatory, though that's not attached to the result of a roll so much as the action of rolling. If I'm rolling, I'm more engaged with the action.

tommhans
2013-04-02, 03:15 AM
Depending on the situation, but yeah i always get excited with a 20 or even a 1, even if its out of game throws.
Especially when i said "this is how you guys throw a dice, and i get a 1, and they both get a 1 after me" it set the tone for the game :P

But yeah as said depending on situation, if its a tense battle or a tense contest where the stakes are high a crit would make me jump up the chair and scream yeah bitch! or if i fumble i'd just get sad :P

One of the most memerable moments ive had in a session was a drinking contest (where the stakes were that i could get a griffin for a ottug that we tamed) it was a tenst conteste, i was losing, and then we came to the last shot and i crit! i just jump up, screaming yes! and then just walk away from the table as i knew i just won that epic contest :D

Likewise when the DM critted on another dude in the party, he got unconcious, and he just managed to get stable and rise up, before i fumbled and hit him which got him unconcious again, and then the last dude in the party was going to ressurect him after we jsut had finished the last NPC(which was right after my fumble) and he managed to fumble the healing so that the character died in an epic and hilarious way, we all cried of laughter except the one that died :P

If i roll a high number on the dice i usually feel pretty good, and pretty bad if its a bad throw ofc, if i have a bad dice day i usually end up dissapointed, but usually its a bit of both. If the DM rolls high it makes things interesting so i dont mind that but it is indeed funny when he fumbles(hidden throws but we understand immediatly if he crits or fumbles, or throws high or low dice numbers ^^ )

Mastikator
2013-04-02, 04:26 AM
I'm doing some research for an article on randomisation in RPGs - and I'd like the help of the good folk of the Playground! (Bad folk too, I'm not fussy.)

I've got some inter-related questions that I'd like to get ans many answers for as possible. Please feel free to elaborate around the topic too!

When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

Thanks!

1. Good.
2. Less good.
3. Ok.
4. Ok.
5. Ok
6. Ok

I prefer it when the DM rolls in the open, too often have I seen people wasting time by rolling a die so it falls off the table and under the sofa over and over and over. When the DM rolls efficiently with the same die for everything there's no risk of dice imbalance giving anyone an unfair advantage.

Altair_the_Vexed
2013-04-02, 05:17 AM
Awesome to see lots of responses - thanks everyone! I can still use more, of course.

I'm leaving the questions open, especially regarding the exact numbers, so that you can apply your own reactions. What you tell me is a "good" or "bad" roll isn't up to me, its your choice.

Regarding diceless systems: I'm aware of these, and a mention if their merits and flaws will be included in the article.

I'll put a link in this thread (if it isn't so late as to count as necromancy) to my efforts when I publish - that'll be a fair while though.

Keep 'em coming!

Totally Guy
2013-04-02, 05:28 AM
What's the publication?

To me who, why, and when are very much overlooked. Why especially.

In other words: It's not what dice you roll, it's what you roll them for. :smalltongue:

Jay R
2013-04-02, 08:46 AM
1. When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
"OK, how does that affect the tactical situation; what do I need to do next?"

2. When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
"OK, how does that affect the tactical situation; what do I need to do next?"

3. For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
"OK, how does that affect the tactical situation; what do I need to do next?"

4. For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
"OK, how does that affect the tactical situation; what do I need to do next?"

5. Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
"OK, how does that affect the tactical situation; what do I need to do next?"

6. Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?
"OK, how does that affect the tactical situation; what do I need to do next?"

Yes, I have emotional reactions, but during the situation, step one is to solve the situation. I can cheer over three 20s in five attack rolls later, or complain about my d20 rolling like a d6 after the game.

dps
2013-04-03, 12:24 AM
For the most part, I'm going to be happy when I succeed and disappointed when I fail. Exactly how happy or disappointed I will be is context-dependent.

I'd always prefer to roll the die myself instead of the DM doing it, though logically it shouldn't matter.

Dimers
2013-04-03, 02:34 AM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

1: Nonplussed if believed my chance of success was low, mildly pleased if I believed it was high. I feel like I've done a good job of playing the metagame if I build a character to succeed and they then DO.

2: Annoyed. I don't mind character failures, but I'd really rather not have them happen through luck. Again, I feel it's appropriate in the meta-game to fail something the character should be bad at, though in that case I don't get a sense of personal accomplishment because I've never seen a game where you have to TRY to be bad at lots of things.

3 & 4: I don't have many expectations of opponents' abilities (definitely not a Monster Manual Memorizer), so neither of these events has much emotional impact. If I have reason to expect success (e.g. if my build is very strong in the opposed area) and experience frequent failure, it will annoy and confuse me. Likewise, if I have a weak build in that area but keep 'winning' anyway, that will be confusing and annoying. Either one chips away at verisimilitude.

5 & 6: Doesn't matter. I don't feel any greater or lesser sense of control when I roll versus when the GM does, and I only play long-term with GMs I trust.

EDIT: You're getting a rather wide range of reasons and explanations for these answers!

scurv
2013-04-03, 07:16 AM
I'm doing some research for an article on randomisation in RPGs - and I'd like the help of the good folk of the Playground! (Bad folk too, I'm not fussy.)

I've got some inter-related questions that I'd like to get ans many answers for as possible. Please feel free to elaborate around the topic too!

When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

Thanks!



"In the Kamigata area, they have a sort of tiered lunchbox they use for a single day when flower viewing. Upon returning, they throw them away, trampling them underfoot. The end is important in all things.”
― Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Hagakure: The Book of the Samurai


1> I tend not to get to invested in the small wins. It is a fatal distraction for me, And fun to exploit in others.
2> Good potently, Good failures build plot!
3> meh, it happens, See number one
4> See above
5>Meh It happens
6>I accept that each char i play is part of a story, and in such they are prone to death. So if it is a failure that leads to good development I am quite ecstatic regardless of who did the roll.

I give permission for my responses to be used, But I have to ask why this narrow scope of questions probing at instant gratification on the surface?

Jay R
2013-04-03, 09:40 AM
One other comment on questions 3 and 4:

I'm a long-term poker player. I've noticed a characteristic of people who never get particularly good at poker. They tend to get invested in the value of the hand, separate from whether it can win this pot.

Hands have only two values - "win" and "lose". Four kings has value "lose" is somebody else has four aces. A pair of threes has value "win" if the second best hand is a pair of twos.

Similarly, in an opposed roll, there is only "success". Winning with a low roll when the DM rolls lower is a success, no different than when I win with a high roll. Losing with a high roll when the DM rolls even higher is a "failure". That's all.

Don't get invested in the die roll separate from its result.

Dimers
2013-04-03, 10:51 AM
If you use the face value of the die/dice as a general indicator of how well something goes (within the absolute values of success and failure), then there *is* something there to invest in emotionally. I've played under a couple DMs who do that. And in quite a few game systems, the face value is mechanically translated into degrees of success, like points of damage, or amount added to somebody else's roll, or something. Between those two factors, people might get used to liking high numbers inherently even when the result is binary pass-or-fail. Not that that invalidates your point when the roll *is* binary ... it just gives one explanation for why people would care.

Joe the Rat
2013-04-03, 12:10 PM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

All of the below assumes no shenanigans.

I enjoy success.
Depending on the severity of the roll (what the consequences of failure are). One of many attacks in combat? "Dang it!" Save or Die? "Well crap." But I am okay with failing.
Frustrated, but no more than failing against a high static target. The inverse (beating the GMs awesome roll with an even more awesome roll) is pretty sweet.
I'll take it.
I prefer to succeed with my own "luck."
It feels worse, but I prefer to fail by my own hand.


I ascribe to the ideal that all rollers of dice are equally likely to get the same result on a throw, but I prefer the agency of being the one to cast the die for my own consequences, good or ill.

Altair_the_Vexed
2013-04-04, 06:54 AM
Continued thanks to everyone who's posted answers!

All answers are useful - if you can manage to think of your answers before you read through other people's posts, that'd be helpful - I'm looking for a body of results, as much as I'm looking to promote discussion!

Regarding where this will be published: I'm writing the article at least for my blog, but if I can make particularly insightful conclusions, then I'll take it to the gaming press.
I'm also canvassing other forums with the same set of questions.

Asmayus
2013-04-04, 08:16 AM
I'm doing some research for an article on randomisation in RPGs - and I'd like the help of the good folk of the Playground! (Bad folk too, I'm not fussy.)

I've got some inter-related questions that I'd like to get ans many answers for as possible. Please feel free to elaborate around the topic too!

When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?

Thanks!



1. Like Elan, really: I'm contributing!
2. Waste of a turn/I hate my dice.
3. ooh, good roll for me, will [the orc or whatever] beat it? Awe, sucks.
4. The opposite of the above: GM Rolls poorly, and I think, ooh, sucks for him? [I roll]: Sucks For Him!
5. I feel better about it when I roll the dice, becasue it's me doing something in game, rather than someone else doing something in game.
6. Same as the above.

Good questions! :)

Icewraith
2013-04-04, 03:06 PM
I'm doing some research for an article on randomisation in RPGs - and I'd like the help of the good folk of the Playground! (Bad folk too, I'm not fussy.)

I've got some inter-related questions that I'd like to get ans many answers for as possible. Please feel free to elaborate around the topic too!

When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?



1: Good. Also I usually get to do even more rolling or use a class ability or something since I succeeded, which keeps me more interested in what's going on.

2: Well this sucks. My character is clearly not being as cool as he could be. Also my turn's over, or something bad is about to happen to me.

3: I feel like I wasted one of my few-and-far-between good rolls.

4: Victory is mine! Also the enemy tends to become buffoonish if the DM rolled really poorly.

5: I much prefer rolling my own dice whenever possible.

6: I still feel better about failing if I rolled the dice since if the GM rolls the dice and I failed, there's always the possilbilty that I would have rolled better and it's my character. However, as a long time GM, I prefer to roll search and spot checks so people don't stop whatever they're doing and go over a bare 10' wide corridor with tweezers and a microscope because I asked the rogue for a search check. There's quite a lot of value in not having to tell your players they didn't see something, so they're actually surprised when the thing they didn't see pops up later.

SgtCarnage92
2013-04-05, 01:40 AM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?



1. When I succeed I feel like I accomplished something, unless I'm asked to make a roll for something that is utterly pointless.

2. When I fail, I feel one of two things. Either I'm mildly upset at something failing before shaking it off and working toward figuring out what I'm going to do next. Or I feel irritated because there is no consequence to my failure and we just wasted valuable time doing something pointless.

3. That depends on whether I can trust my GM or not and whether or not I'm confident in my character's abilities in a particular area. If I roll a 17 and I have no points in the skill and the GM beats me. I shrug it off because it was a crapshoot anyway. If I roll high in a skill I'm focused in and the GM still beats me. I feel mildly irritated and I want to understand why it happened. If it's close, I feel better about it than if i'm blown out of the water.

4. If that success has consequences, then awesome. If that success doesn't have consequences...mildly annoyed.

5-6. I feel better about success and failure when I'm rolling the dice because that means that it was my action (rolling the die) that led to the result. Not because the GM had a good/bad run on the dice at that particular time. I hate beating an encounter just because the GM rolled crap just as much as I hate losing an encounter because the GMs rolls were high. Internal locus of control and all that.

Which brings up a question regarding rules variants in which players roll all the dice...but that's for another time. :smalltongue:

laeZ1
2013-04-05, 04:01 PM
I would like to first point out that I've spent much more time as a DM than as a player, so please take that into account.


When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel? I feel like a winner. If there was a low chance of my character succeeding, I try to make my fellow players and the DM laugh with my explination of the events. If there wasn't much chance of failure, I only make a big deal of it if I had been rolling poorly that session.

When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel? I actually get a little excited. It can be just as fun (if not more) to describe a failing action than one which succeeds. When my character fails, I try to invoke one of two responses: laughter, and dread. I try to have failures give my characters growth. It also lets my party members shine if I roll poorly.

For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel? Very excited. The thought of things stronger/smarter/overall better than my character creates an atmosphere of uncertainty.

For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel? If I roll poorly and the DM "rolls worse", generally, I feel cheated. Unless it's some mechanic I built my character around. I usually suspect my DM is fudging the numbers when this happens.

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice? I wouldn't know how success feels when the DM rolls the dice. I know many rules have the DM roll for you, so you're unaware of the result (bluff, sense motive, hide, move silently, perception), but I can't think of a time when the DM rolls for the player in my group of friends.

Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?Same as above. I'm not sure I can answer that.

kyoryu
2013-04-05, 04:42 PM
Honestly, it depends on the context, and to a certain extent the game.

"Dead End" rolls annoy me. "You fail, so you don't do anything." Seriously, just bad design.

Failing to hit in a game can annoy me, but it's minor, unless it keeps happening.

In a situation where a die roll is used to determine an outcome, and "failure" really means "interesting complication?" Doesn't really bug me at all.

In general, failure is less likely to annoy me in a game like Fate than a game like D&D.

Remmirath
2013-04-05, 11:37 PM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?: Assuming this is a character I like, somewhere between neutral if nothing much is on the line to happy or relieved if a lot was on the line. If I dislike the character in question, I might feel annoyed.

When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?: Again, assuming this is a character I like, somewhere between neutral if nothing much is on the line to upset or resigned if a lot was on the line. If I dislike the character in question, I might feel amused.

For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?: It really does all depend on the characters and the situation. Usually neutral to "aww, man" for a character I like and an NPC/situation I don't like or want to overcome, and neutral to "heh, great" for a character I don't like and an NPC/situation I do like or don't want to overcome.

For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?: Follows the same pattern as the other answers. It all depends.

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?: It does not matter much to me who rolls the dice, save that if it is any roll that my character is making, I feel I should be rolling it.

Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?: Same.

Exediron
2013-04-06, 03:03 AM
When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
If there was any true tension - a real consequence of failure, for example - then I feel excited about the roll itself and relieved that it succeeded. If there was no real risk I don't feel anything much.
When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
Annoyed. I want my characters to fail on their lack of merit, not my lack of luck.
For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
If I roll first, I feel surprised and somewhat cheated by luck. If the GM rolled first I expected to lose, so I'd feel good about coming close.
For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
I prefer it this way, so it feels somewhat closer. If the GM rolled first I already counted it as a success mentally, and if I rolled first I'd be relieved that my own bad roll turned out to be higher.
Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
It doesn't affect my response to the result, but I prefer not to have others roll for me.
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?
Same as above.

I'm assuming for these answers that I generally want to succeed at the roll in question, which is not always the case.

Altair_the_Vexed
2013-04-06, 03:23 AM
Thanks again to everyone for chipping in!

Regarding questions 5 and 6:
The particular example I have in mind for when the GM's roll determines your success or failure is when the NPC gets a save against a PC's spell.
In that event, the spell is successful, but the GM's roll determines the result.

Keep 'em coming!

Exediron
2013-04-06, 05:34 PM
Ah - thanks for the clarification. That does change my answer.

5/6: If the spell fails it frustrates me less than if it had failed because I rolled poorly; I prefer to fail because someone else did well than because I did badly. If it succeeds I feel more-or-less the same as I would have otherwise - in a success situation the roll is soon forgotten and I move on to the result.

Altair_the_Vexed
2013-04-07, 07:30 AM
Thanks again to everyone who's chipped in so far!

I've gathered enough data to start digging into it now, and I've posted my breakdown of the results so far on my blog. (http://running-the-game.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/dice-results-and-you.html)

The raw data is going to go into supporting a more game-play-related, less analytical article - still working on that.

Of course, more data is always good for analysis!

Guizonde
2013-04-07, 08:19 AM
i've got dice for my different characters, so whenever i accidentally roll with dice meant for other characters i invariably miss (confirmation bias and rp-superstitions i know). unfortunately, so far it's proven true to my group as well (compounded by the fact that one set is used in DnD and the other in WHFRP). to answer your question OP, here is my breakdown:


1.When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
2.When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel?
3.For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?
4.For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
5.Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
6.Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?
1. i feel good. it means that i'm participating efficiently, and i'm doing what's expected of me.
2. i feel disappointed if it's my character's specialty, and nonplussed when i roll out of it. my character isn't omnipotent, but it still rankles a bit. better luck next roll.
3.gut reaction says, "HAXX!!1!". reasoned reaction says, "huh, that is tougher than expected". once again, my character isn't omnipotent.
4.i usually do a glasses pull with a cheesy one-liner when that happens. not too cocky, but comically arrogant, like it was planned all along :smallbiggrin:
5.no hesitation, whenever i roll the dice. when the dm does it, it always feels too relieving to be true. the dm could have fudged the dice. at least i know when i roll and i make it, it's my doing.
6. as above, i blow my roll, it's my fault. if the dm says i fail because he rolled, it rankles. i could've done it better, but then again, he could have fudged the dice.

i trust my gm to not go easy on me, but there's always the lingering doubt that he's fudging the rolls. i don't mind it because he does it to advance the story, but my character is my measure of control over the story told. leave me without my rolls, and how can i concretely participate in the story? i'd rather blow my rolls and feel bad than not roll at all and win.

... i feel like i'm not crystal clear, sorry if you don't understand it. basically, me roll good or bad, better than dm who can fiat.

hope this helps :smallsmile:

SgtCarnage92
2013-04-08, 04:19 AM
Thanks again to everyone who's chipped in so far!

I've gathered enough data to start digging into it now, and I've posted my breakdown of the results so far on my blog. (http://running-the-game.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/dice-results-and-you.html)

Just as a mild curiosity, how big is your sample size currently?

Altair_the_Vexed
2013-04-08, 05:38 AM
Sample size is not massive - around fifty responses.

I'm not really attempting to make a seriously robust sociological treatise here, more to confirm that my preconceptions about players feelings regarding dice are true for more than just my immediate social circle of games club and RPG mates.

If I could get enough responses to go to proper statistical levels of certainty, that'd be awesome, but probably unnecessary.

Mastikator
2013-04-08, 05:57 AM
Thanks again to everyone who's chipped in so far!

I've gathered enough data to start digging into it now, and I've posted my breakdown of the results so far on my blog. (http://running-the-game.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/dice-results-and-you.html)

The raw data is going to go into supporting a more game-play-related, less analytical article - still working on that.

Of course, more data is always good for analysis!

Fascinating bugs in human psychology, people feel they have control of the outcome of random dice rolling.
If someone actually could control the outcome of a dice rolling, would it be cheating?

Altair_the_Vexed
2013-04-08, 01:54 PM
Fascinating bugs in human psychology, people feel they have control of the outcome of random dice rolling.
If someone actually could control the outcome of a dice rolling, would it be cheating?
Well... no-one actually said they thought they were influencing the results by rolling, but I imagine that deep down, we all engage in a little bit of superstitious / magical thinking.

Mastikator
2013-04-08, 03:02 PM
Of course everyone knows that you don't affect the outcome by rolling yourself, you don't improve your odds by blowing on your dice. But people still feel like it helps even if it has no effect at all.
Understanding something logically yet still feeling the opposite is a bug in how the mind works, that's all I'm saying.

SgtCarnage92
2013-04-08, 04:29 PM
Sample size is not massive - around fifty responses.

Eh, fifty responses is actually pretty good overall. It's enough for basic statistical analysis at least.

The psychological anomaly is amusing. Then again it makes some degree of sense. You're performing an action (rolling a die) that is a physical real-world representation of an abstract action in an imagined universe. It makes the action seem more "real" because you're actually doing something. It's the same reason I prefer to use mini's than not. The GM rolling the die may statistically have the same chances as you (assuming balanced and fair dice and the GM is being honest), but it takes the PHYSICAL action out of your hands and gives it to somebody else so for a brief moment your character is no longer yours. It's not the result of the action that is as important as the action itself.

Trouvere
2013-04-11, 05:41 AM
1. Tense as I roll, with a feeling of relief if it's good enough, and a tiny fleeting 'yes!' if it's really good, like a critical threat. Passes quickly.
2. Irritated, but see below.
3. That's just one of those things. He did objectively well, so he likely looked good in losing. That's far better than rolling badly, even though the outcome is the same.
4. Kick-ass! I have won.
5. I'm... not sure. I've played mostly PbP; my characters' crowning moments of glory have mostly come when the DM has rolled for me.
6. Yeah... I think I do somehow feel responsible for my rolls, so it's worse if I roll it. Illogical, but true.

2. Right. In a PbP game, I had a dwarf character who dumped Cha, was supposed to have been a bit of a screw-up kicked out of sent out by his clan as a roving ambassador to other races, who was then picked up by the god of luck (and misfits!) as a divine bard. His first ever combat roll was a natural 1, of course. It didn't really get better. He might as well have been rolling a d8 instead of a d20. After a while, I added up all his d20 rolls, and calculated the odds of the total being that low. I figured that at an average 10 rolls a day, an adventurer would expect to have a streak that bad about once every 8 years. And honestly, while that was funny for a follower of the supposed god of luck, and it gave him the chance to rant about being his god's chewtoy, it killed a lot of my sense of attachment to the character. He was supposed to be some kind of hero (like any other PC), but he was so far freakishly way off on the left side of the bellcurve of possible rolls that any average-rolling Commoner would have outperformed him. His dream was some day to roll a 12.

Kol Korran
2013-04-12, 04:23 AM
My group have the players roll ALL the dice, the DM doesn't roll nearly anything (at least not player related). So some of the answers will be affected by that.



[1]When you roll good numbers (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?
Depends on the task and risk at hand. if this is crucial and the chances were against me, then rolling well makes me get that momentery "yes!" feeling. however, it is very fleeting. I prefer success by cunning, tactics and good roleplay other than just rolls. but the rolls add danger to things. this is true for the rest of the answers as well.

[2]When you roll badly (so your character fails), how do you feel? if this resulted in a serious loss/ hindrance (character death, big complication/ danger). i feel bummed. otherwise nothing special. at times however this actually makes me feel great, as it adds to the challenge.

[3]For opposed rolls, if you roll well, but the GM rolls better (so your character fails), how do you feel?we don't exactly do opposed rolls most times. usually the NPC is assumed to have rolled 10. but even if we do opposed rolls, the asnwers are just as above with success and failure.

[3]For opposed rolls, when the GM rolls poorly but you roll better (so your character succeeds), how do you feel?just as the previous question

Do you feel better about success when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls the dice?
Do you feel worse about failure when you roll the dice, or when the GM rolls?players roll all the dice, the responsibility is upon them.

i hope this answers your questions