Idea--MtG/Roleplaying Hybrid Game?

[Amaril]

I was just taking a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49583) thread and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281269) one, and they made me remember an idea that occurred to me a while back that I never bothered to pursue. Basically, my idea is to combine the card game Magic: the Gathering with a roleplaying game of some sort. Each player would create their own Planeswalker, who they would control as their own character, and then use a MtG deck to defeat GM-controlled enemies (or the other players' characters, if they wanted). Depending on the particular group, they could play games with real cards, or they could have an in-game-only deck representing the spells known by their Planeswalker, but they wouldn't automatically be able to use any card the player owned in real life--their character would have to actually learn the spell in the game, and there would be restrictions on what a particular Planeswalker could cast based on what colors of magic they were skilled with and how much mana they had access to.

Has anything like this ever been done? And if not, do you think it's possible? What are your suggestions?

[atomicpenguin]

I've thought about this as well. For a game like this, it would be absolutely imperative to institute a much more stringent system for game balance. Think about any match at Friday Night Magic: the people who win are the people who have become experts at analyzing what each card does and exploiting holes in the design to create broken decks. This is more or less the point of the normal card game, however, and not only is this not looked down on, but the official response to these decks is to cycle out older sets so that they can't be played anymore and ban them if they are really too powerful for modern or older play.

For a roleplaying game, however, there are going to be more things to consider. For start, broken decks are a no go for the same reasons that a broken character can ruin a campaign in DnD 3.5: it won't be fun for the player because everything is too easy, it won't be fun for the GM because they will constantly find their campaigns ruined and have to make them harder and more tricky, and it won't be fun for the players without broken characters because they will constantly either have the broken character fix everything for them or have to struggle with a difficulty to match the broken character that they don't measure up to.

The other problem is theme. The cards in MtG are phenomenal, with art and acceptable justification of each card in-canon. The problem is that these were never meant to be used for full-on roleplaying. You will need to fill in a lot of blanks in terms of what each spell actually does in a roleplaying environment. There's also issues with theme: a spell from a Ravnica block may be out of place in another setting such as Innistrad or Mirrodin.

So I recommend you make your own list of cards. Go far back, before the existing canon, and compile a list of basic spells that can be reasonably pulled out in any setting. Keep in mind cards which are broken and at the very least follow the official ban lists. You can dip into the canon if you want, but be sure to figure out which cards go in which world and ask yourself if it would be reasonable to see each card in a different plane. You also need to consider how casting would work outside of a game. Maybe think of a more theatrical way of gaining mana than the Land mechanic. Think about what it means to summon a "proper name creature": is that creature created from the aether or summoned from his/her/its place of origin? This especially applies to planeswalkers: How are they summoned? can a planeswalker decide not to help the one who summoned him/her/it?

[The Tyler]

I've considered something similar. My idea was to create a spellcasting system for 3.5/Pathfinder based off the M:tG system.

I don't think theme is much of an issue. Yes, some spells don't fit the theme of a particular world, but I won't ban them because of that. People from that world will only know spells from that world, but you're playing a planeswalker. You can travel between worlds and gather spells from any that you visit.

I think the land mechanic is theatrical enough. You've formed mystical conduits to lands you have visited and you can activate those conduits and draw energy through them to power your spells. That's pretty awesome to me.

I wouldn't allow Planeswalker cards to be used. Those are supposed to represent alliances with those particular Planeswalkers. It does make for simple easy to use stats to represent NPC planeswalkers though. The concept can be kept, just don't let players control them.

The problems I've run into are:

Converting power and toughness into D&D terms
Converting creature keywords into D&D terms. Some are easy, some aren't.
How does M:tG style spellcasting function within the limited action economy of D&D? In M:tG, the only limits to spellcasting on a turn are energy. In D&D, that's different. Do you count instants as swift or immediate actions?

[Amaril]

The other problem is theme. The cards in MtG are phenomenal, with art and acceptable justification of each card in-canon. The problem is that these were never meant to be used for full-on roleplaying. You will need to fill in a lot of blanks in terms of what each spell actually does in a roleplaying environment. There's also issues with theme: a spell from a Ravnica block may be out of place in another setting such as Innistrad or Mirrodin.


Actually, I don't think theme would be an issue at all. Because a player would be controlling a Planeswalker, it makes sense to me that they would possess a collection of their favorite spells assembled from all different planes--a Planeswalker confronting an enemy might summon a horde of Skaab from Innistrad and a dragon from Jund in the same battle. They do this canonically all the time, so I see no reason not to allow it in a game like this. The only necessary restriction would be that GMs would be able to ban sets based on the time period in which their game was set--if they're running a game that takes place before the Mirran-Phyrexian war, the players couldn't use spells from the new Mirrodin block or anything later than that, but everything before that in the canonical chronology would be allowed.



The problems I've run into are:
Converting power and toughness into D&D terms
Converting creature keywords into D&D terms. Some are easy, some aren't.
How does M:tG style spellcasting function within the limited action economy of D&D? In M:tG, the only limits to spellcasting on a turn are energy. In D&D, that's different. Do you count instants as swift or immediate actions?


I should clarify that when I say "combining MtG with a roleplaying game" I really do mean the players would play games of MtG at the table as part of the session. Conversion of power and toughness into RPG terms wouldn't be an issue, because they'd still exist in the exact context of the card game itself. Combat would either take the form of full games with 60-card-or-more decks (likely for rival Planeswalkers and powerful enemy mages), or with smaller decks with fewer cards against opponents with less maximum life, but it would be played out exactly according to MtG rules, with some possible edits. The roleplaying aspect would come into play more outside of combat.


For a roleplaying game, however, there are going to be more things to consider. For start, broken decks are a no go for the same reasons that a broken character can ruin a campaign in DnD 3.5: it won't be fun for the player because everything is too easy, it won't be fun for the GM because they will constantly find their campaigns ruined and have to make them harder and more tricky, and it won't be fun for the players without broken characters because they will constantly either have the broken character fix everything for them or have to struggle with a difficulty to match the broken character that they don't measure up to.

I don't think that would be a problem, because the way I see it, the players would only have access to the cards their GM allows their characters to learn in the course of the story. I envision each player choosing one or more colors for their Planeswalker to start out skilled with, and being allowed to pick from a pool of basic starting cards for each, then having to expand and strengthen their deck with spells they pick up later from actually learning them or convincing creatures and people they meet to allow themselves to be summoned as warriors. GMs could easily just not give their players access to more game-breaking spells or combos, and when a player finally does get the cards to perform a particularly deadly combo, it will be the result of hard work and study, a much more rewarding and balanced experience.

[kestrel404]

This idea was originally published as Everway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everway), not long after MtG was created. Never went anywhere, and was poorly implemented to boot.

I've had a few ideas based around MtG for diceless RPGs, though, and it's a fertile ground for homebrewing.

Ideas I'll toss out for people to play with:
Using the color wheel for attributes - Red (Strength), Green (Dexterity), White (Wisdom), Blue (Intelligence), Black (Willpower), with Power indicating BAB & Toughness converting to Con - or some other arrangement
Converted mana cost becomes spell level
Each color of mana becomes a 'class'/set of classes, with Artificer being the colorless class
Using the actual cards and a deck-building/draw mechanic as your randomizer.

Those are the basics of what I've tried (and failed) to use before.
Hope that helps