PDA

View Full Version : LOC (Lords of Creation) rule building



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4

Grinner
2013-05-29, 01:13 AM
I think Preaplanes' concern is that anything that allows non-consensually destroying people's creations opens up the system to griefing. Ideally that wouldn't be a problem and people just wouldn't do it, but equally people being totally unwilling to ever have their creations destroyed ideally wouldn't be a problem either.
In particular, someone intending to cause grief isn't going to value the AP and time they're spending to destroy things or kill characters as the person resisting is going to value the time and AP they spend on their creations. It's no more valid to handwave that than to handwave the apparent unwillingness to allow one's creations to be destroyed.

AP spent on things can be refunded, but not the time or the creative effort used on them. And that doesn't go into people other than the creator adding to something. That suggestion is therefore not great as a consequence to having something destroyed without consent, but might be a good motivation to willingly allow things to be destroyed more often.

And this is the crux of what we've spent the last five hundred posts discussing. We can't even agree on what the focus of the game is: the Setting or the Game itself.

As I understand it, Lords of Creation started as a way of communally generating campaigns for later use. Newer iterations of the game focus on playing the game for the game itself. It follows that players get attached to their characters and creations when they start playing this way. It's no longer about the Setting but about the Game.

From the Setting viewpoint, everything is disposable in the end. Every creation and god is just a prop ready to be sacrificed in the name of good storytelling.

From the Game viewpoint, everything I just said is senseless. It's not about the setting; it's about the players. Destroying all of their hard work for some pointless story just isn't worth it.

So, do we want a setting generator or a game?


I have read through the whole thread, but may I ask for some more detail on why destruction of things made by people who have left the game was not acceptable to avoid stagnation or endless expansion? Surely if the player has left then they don't care as much about their creations as much as the people who have stuck around (excepting cases where they are actually unable to post for some reason), which should provide open targets for people wanting to destroy things in games where people generally aren't willing to compromise about it.

Personally, I have no problem with it alone. My problem is trying to use it to satisfy the "Setting" side's expectations. Simply having the entropic deities (Death, Destruction, etc.) play janitor doesn't sound very appealing.

ScionoftheVoid
2013-05-29, 01:34 AM
And this is the crux of what we've spent the last five hundred posts discussing. We can't even agree on what the focus of the game is: the Setting or the Game itself.

As I understand it, Lords of Creation started as a way of communally generating campaigns for later use. Newer iterations of the game focus on playing the game for the game itself. It follows that players get attached to their characters and creations when they start playing this way. It's no longer about the Setting but about the Game.

From the Setting viewpoint, everything is disposable in the end. Every creation and god is just a prop ready to be sacrificed in the name of good storytelling.

From the Game viewpoint, everything I just said is senseless. It's not about the setting; it's about the players. Destroying all of their hard work for some pointless story just isn't worth it.

So, do we want a setting generator or a game?

Hmmm... It would be great to find a way to satisfy both sides of this, or to get the smallest modification between the two so that both can have games, but that's obviously difficult (hence this thread being so long). I don't feel I can add much more since I don't actually play in this system (yet).


Personally, I have no problem with it alone. My problem is trying to use it to satisfy the "Setting" side's expectations. Simply having the entropic deities (Death, Destruction, etc.) play janitor doesn't sound very appealing.

I would have thought that was more a "game" side problem, but it does make sense. Of course, it's balanced against people's things being destroyed without their permission also not sounding very appealing.

People do have to be willing to let go of things, but the things which are most invested in (and therefore least likely to be given up) are also the things interesting and memorable enough to be exciting for destruction and death gods to target. And there's not really much that could be done about that, at least nothing that I can think of.

Rizban
2013-05-29, 01:52 AM
I haven't actually played before, but I am interested in this.

I think Preaplanes' concern is that anything that allows non-consensually destroying people's creations opens up the system to griefing. Ideally that wouldn't be a problem and people just wouldn't do it, but equally people being totally unwilling to ever have their creations destroyed ideally wouldn't be a problem either.
In particular, someone intending to cause grief isn't going to value the AP and time they're spending to destroy things or kill characters as the person resisting is going to value the time and AP they spend on their creations. It's no more valid to handwave that than to handwave the apparent unwillingness to allow one's creations to be destroyed.

AP spent on things can be refunded, but not the time or the creative effort used on them. And that doesn't go into people other than the creator adding to something. That suggestion is therefore not great as a consequence to having something destroyed without consent, but might be a good motivation to willingly allow things to be destroyed more often.In past games, griefing simply was not a problem. The only way to successfully grief was to play the game a sufficient amount of time and build up enough of your own stuff to be able to be strong enough to grief. This took weeks of effort, and other players were growing at the same rate that you were, give or take a little bit.

Now, the thing is, griefing can only be done if there is no one there who can forcefully stop it. While there were some attempted efforts at griefing other players, this was quickly and efficiently stopped by the player base itself. None of the players ever took kindly to griefing, and alliances were quickly formed to stop the griefer before he was able to do much of anything. Usually, this resulted in great storytelling by the other players as they chronicled the war against the aggressive jerk who was attempting to grief. Once the griefer realized that his actions were right there out in the open for everyone to see and that everyone who saw it would rally to stop him, he either lost interest in the game entirely or learned to have fun in the game without griefing.

On the other hand, the few games in which I played that lacked such a system saw much harsher griefing by players who knew that no one could stop them short of simply ignoring them and hoping they went away. For example, one game I played (the name of which escapes me at the moment), there was a particular player who regularly spent all of his AP each turn trying to ruin everything that one particular other player did. The only way that second player had to stop it was to waste all of his own AP to undo it. Due to the escalating AP costs associated with undoing the Bless/Curse of other players, he was never able to fully cancel out everything the griefer did. This led to a good player quitting the game, because he was sick of having to beg for help from other players every single week just to keep his stuff at status quo.

Unlike many hypothetical situations put forth by multiple different people, the above two paragraphs are anecdotal, not hypothetical. I have seen exactly those situations play out on more than one occasion in more than one game. The player base is usually really good about playing along and policing itself, but only when such a system existed that allowed the player base to police itself.




I have read through the whole thread, but may I ask for some more detail on why destruction of things made by people who have left the game was not acceptable to avoid stagnation or endless expansion? Surely if the player has left then they don't care as much about their creations as much as the people who have stuck around (excepting cases where they are actually unable to post for some reason), which should provide open targets for people wanting to destroy things in games where people generally aren't willing to compromise about it.I personally do not oppose the destruction of things created by other players, regardless of activity levels, provided the destroyer pays for it.

I am wholeheartedly against anyone ever having the power to wave their hands and destroy anything and everything another player has created, regardless of that player's activity level. Even if that player is long gone from the game, what he created is still part of the world and should still fall under the same rules as every other part of the world.


I will name Preaplanes in this instance, because I am using his own stated position. This is not an attack on his position, as some seem prone to believe, but rather an attempted contrast between his position and my own.

According to Preaplane's suggestion:
1. Active players have blanket immunity unless and until they give consent.
2. Inactive players have no immunity and can lose everything at no cost to other players as soon as another player makes an essentially arbitrary decision about their activity level.


According to my suggestion:
1. Active players have blanket immunity unless and until another player pays AP to perform a specific, well defined, and limited action.
2. Inactive players are treated in exactly the same way as active players.


Preaplane's suggestion and mine are opposed in several ways and lead to several different conclusions.

First, the affect on Active Players.
Player Interaction
Preaplane - Active players are never forced to interact with other players. If a player chooses to play the game in "single-player mode" they may do so. There's nothing wrong with this, if that's what the players want to do.

Rizban - Active players are forced to interact with other players on some level. Either they have other players do something to their characters and creations, or they interact to build friendships and alliances to prevent exactly that. Regardless, interaction is forced to occur.


Risk/Reward
Preaplane - The risk is nonexistent, as there is no chance of anyone else affecting your stuff without your permission. When you do give permission, you determine exactly what can and can't happen.
The reward is minimal. You may get 'exactly what you want,' but there's no real challenge to overcome beyond what you setup for yourself.
Again, there is nothing inherently wrong with this system if that's how you want to play.

Rizban - There is heightened risk on multiple fronts. First, you risk other people attacking your creations or even your god with or without your permission. Second, the attacker risks his own creations and his own character to the repercussions of his actions. Third, there is increased risk of drawing attention from periphery players who may decide they want in on the action.
The reward is also increased. When you overcome an unexpected obstacle, such as being attacked, the elation is much greater than when you overcome an "obstacle" you setup for yourself and already knew how and when you would overcome it. Creating something that survives and thrives in adversity usually gives a much greater sense of satisfaction than one that has no real threat to its existence.


Random Creative Influence
Preaplanes - Under this premise, things only happen when you agree to them preemptively. As such, everything is planned, ordered, and expected. There are only as many twists and additions as your personal creativity can muster, added to only in the occasions that you permit someone else to contribute to your creation in some way.

Rizban - Under this premise, anyone can contribute in some way to anyone else's creations at any time. While you may argue the semantics of "contribute," I mean it as contributing to the whole of the story of the creation. With many people able to add to anything at any time, you find far more interesting and organic interactions than you do when everything is planned.



As to Inactive Players, I want to codify one premise of my position: Inactive Players are treated exactly the same as Active Players.
1. Mortal creations can be affected at any time, provided AP is spent.
2. Gods can be affected at any time through combat, provided AP is spent and the player is present and able to roll for his side of the combat.

Under my stance, the mortal creations are treated just like all other mortal creations. Any player wishing to change them must pay AP to do so. In fact, under the original rules, there are a caveat under one of the actions that even allows one player to take over the mortal civilizations of another player. I've never seen that used against an active player, but an active player can negate it with little difficulty. Regardless of activity of the target, the same amount of effort and investment must be spent.

As to the gods themselves, combat can only take effect if the other player is present to make the rolls. This limits combat strictly to active players, protecting the inactive ones. I justify this mechanically from the standpoint of nothing should be gained for free and that players should have a chance both to attack and to defend themselves. I justify this in game from the standpoint that the inactive god has been absent from the world so long that the other gods can't find him to attack him.


Under Preaplane's stance, from my understanding, none of the above applies. The instant that someone rules a character as inactive, anyone can post a roleplay only post to conquer, exterminate, reformat, or whatever to anything and everything that belonged to that player without cost beyond the effort to write the post.

If my understanding of that is correct, then I absolutely oppose that and refer back to my own position: All players, characters, creations, etc. should be treated the exact same under the rules.


{snip}As to the rest of your post, it doesn't bear comment.

Man on Fire
2013-05-29, 12:06 PM
Evolve Physically, but name it something else. I always hated having to reshape my image to fit the power increase.

You dont need to reshape your image, you can lmit this to pretty minor things. In my game we had players who used this every rank (old school rules) but many of them strongly limited the change. We had guy who evolved physically without submitting new form at all - he just said his god "synchronized with the stars". Another god we had went from this (http://www.mediafire.com/conv/fc853acabc1cc0e0bf29efa4657060626e500985074548bb43 a10c4e7f75ce3c6g.jpg) to this (http://www.mediafire.com/conv/d32d8af2011d2918ab88975709087b57f4975ce820bf857637 70082db1a83ca46g.jpg) and just said he forged himself a suit of armor.

And could you explain to me, on PMs if necessary, why are you so mad about themes idea? I'm asking because in our game we had a lot of arguments boiling down to that two players wanted to make different theme of the world. Heck, I was told by other player I'm playign the game wrong because I gave local not-orcs their own nation and culture and it clashed with other player's idea of high fantasy setting he wanted to make. At the end of the game some players even said that if we're about to play again, we're going to chose a one theme fro mthe start and stick to it.

Or maybe it's the ages specific themes idea that I made to spice things up, so our settings won't end up as bad snowclones of already existing ones.


By the way - I can make a shrt describtion of themes in spare time, so it owuld be clear what every term means.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 12:22 PM
Still not done with the finished proposed system (Job, plus technically homeless :smallfrown: [stupid landlord! :smallmad:])

Anyway I'm going to step in and say: Don't worry and calm down :smallsmile:. I know this is LOC so everyone is really heated - but I think it's a great thing that so many people care so much about this favorite game of mine.

Just remember that while LOC is a community world building project, this is a community rule building project. We're in this together!

Lady Tialait did we ever play together? My first LOC was run by Milo (Dawn of Abel) Since then i've been around - like a cold sore :smalltongue:. anyway thanks for your input. . . some questions:


So you would not be ok with just artifact thematic bonuses?
I too think divine decrees are good - but im interested in your insight into why they are needed?
Finally what would you propose for the concept ideas? Lets say a player does want to make logic or love?



PROPOSAL DRAFT 1 WITHOUT RCR RULES YET OR LOSE SYSTEM:

Character Creation

A Godly Name
ONE Domain from the Available list (choose what that domain gives you; 1) +2 to Attack; 2) +2 to defense; 3) 2d6 extra HP; OR 4) knowing when someone else is using an action tied to that specific domain
An associative portfolio
And a character description: include Alignment and goals here.

You start off with 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense, 10 HP plus whatever you choose with your additional domain.

Other Rules

You gain 2+X AP per rollover, where X is how many domains you have. 5 is the maximum number of domains you may have.

Rank Name| Weekly AP | Infusions| Required Domains
Fledgling Deity | 3 |1 |1
Lesser Deity | 4 |1 |2
Intermediate Deity | 5 | 2 |3
Greater Deity | 6 | 2 |4
Elder Deity| 7 | 3 | 5


Gods above Fledging may not access the material plane

You may only have 1 Shard per every 2 Domains you have.

Pantheons

When you a born into the game - you automatically join a pantheon between your progenitor and yourself, unless your progenitor is already part of a pantheon and in that case you will join that pantheon. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time.

The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader.

Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon. A god is never forced to use AP to fulfill an order.

But being a leader brings it's own responsibilities. The leader of any pantheon must obey these rule:


Pantheon leader cannot openly act against the good of the pantheon. If he does, the strongest member may challenge him for the crown. Strongest is Highest Rank. If more than one player is tied for highest rank it is the one with highest AP. A challenge is not an RCR challenge but a democratic vote between the pantheon members. The challenger and challengee do not get to vote (meaning that an effective change of command can only work in a pantheon with 3 or more members). This also means unpopular pantheon leaders can be displaced. The ousted leader will become a regular member of the pantheon.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members.
Pantheon leader must defend members of his pantheon against attacks of other gods (that he knows of), either by himself or by sending other members of the pantheon.



Create Pantheon: 1 AP
Join a pantheon: 1 AP
Subordinate your pantheon to another pantheon: 1 AP.


Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

During Rollover you must reuse the Form Organization action, or your organization dissolves.

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.


1 AP Form Society
2 AP Create Nation
1 AP Form Organization


Land Actions

A big part of being a god is changing the landscape around you!


Alter Land 1 AP: Alter land allows a god to change already existing landscapes. It can be used to create mountain ranges, vast forests, lakes, swamps, or any other kind of "land type" you could think of. This includes razing and raising cities! Alter land can also be used to raise small chains of islands from the sea. These islands cannot be very big, but can be large enough to support a small kingdom. Think about the size of Hawaii. Alter land actions can also be used to change the layout of existing land, such changes can be the creation of the largest mountain in the world to the greatest forest.

Create Land 2 AP: allows a god to create land where there is none. It can be used to raise a small continent from the sea, or create large, floating islands in a plane where there is no planet. Land created by Create Land can be up to the size of Russia

Forge Astronomical Object 3AP: Use this action to create a celestial body such as a moon, planet, asteroid, or sun. If your astronomical object has special properties such as an empathic link to yourself, or can move contrary to the rules of gravity and physics – it is a Relic NOT an Astronomical Object

Form Nexus 1AP: You may create a location of mystic and divine energy connected to a preexisting sanctum your god control/owns. A nexus may be a building, a door, a portion of a forest, a specific cave, but must be a specific location – it cannot be “the ocean.” Promoting mortals to higher rank of mortal can only occur in a Nexus.

Weave Sanctum 2 AP: You may create a location of divinity attuned to your god. This location may be anywhere not on the material plane. Your seat of power may be a layer of a plane, or a simple foreboding castle. Gods may only enter another God’s sanctum if they have permission or initiated combat.

Imagine Plane 5AP : Imagine Plane allows a god to create the fabric of their own reality. Planes are entire dimensions apart from the normal world, and can take any form a god can imagine. Hell, Heaven, or Limbo, are examples of planes. When weaving a plane, the creating god must decide on any special features it has, such as accelerated time, or empowered magic. A god may also decide how many layers there are initially. This can vary from one, to thousands, though most planes have less than three. Unlike a sanctum a god gets no special benefit for being within his or her own realm or plane. Your god does not "own" a plane he made - in fact other gods creating and living in a plane you made is encouraged!!


Relics and Artifacts:

Relics are powerful items that would destroy any mortal who is not a Legend, if they tried to use one. Only gods have the force of will to wield a Relic; while the reverse is true for Artifacts: An artifact is a powerful item or tool. They are imbued with power beyond that of most mortal's imagining. Artifacts can do many things, from resurrecting the dead, to causing small earthquakes. Artifacts are the tools of Mighty Heroes. Gods cannot wield artifacts; the sheer force of divine power would crush an artifact within seconds.

Relics when they are made can only do 1 of two things:

Grant a thematic bonus for roleplaying effect
OR grant +1 to attack; OR +1 to defense; or +1d6 to HP

You may only create 2 non-thematic relics per each domain you have (maximum is thus 10)

Artifacts may only grant thematic bonuses


Relics are 3 AP
Artifacts are 2 AP


Infusions

Infusions are the vestiges of your divine spark. You have 1 infusion available when the game starts and you gain 1 more infusion when you gain 3 domains, and a third and final infusion when you gain 5 domains.

With the expenditure of an infusion you may:


5 AP Unfold Divinity: Your powers as a god increase as you flower into a form closer to your true divinity. From now on you will gain 1 extra AP per rollover for each time you used Unfold Divinity.

5 AP Break the Chains: You struggle to break the bars that keep you from the mortal plane. With this action you may ignore the rule forbidding gods above fledging from accessing the mortal world.

5 AP Divine Decree: While Divine Omens can affect a person and a divine word can affect a small nation the divine decree affects Everything Everywhere! The divine decree simply states a new constant of the universe; be that all life is immortal; that souls are real; the gravity does not exist; or even that everything is now yellow. Divine decrees can be countered with a divine word action or a divine omen action: but that action still only affects the usual area. So while divine decree can make everything feel love, a god can make the people of a small nation incapable of love through word, or a single person in capable of love through an omen


Omens and Words.

Omens and Words are the will of the gods made manifest. They can range from a golden age for an empire, or to increase the mortal population. The population that finds themselves under the pleasure of a god will find their crops prosperous and their ways smoothed, as the subtle magic of the god is worked in their favor, The population that finds themselves under the curse of a god will find their crops barren and their land blighted, as the subtle magic of the god works against them.

The important thing to remember is to try to keep Omen and Words subtle – the ocassional overt action of a god is impressive but it gets boring quickly – make blesses and curses much much more than: “everyone is super strong now” – instead go for blesses like “I impart the wisdom of martial training and harsh conditions to my people – over the years they become stronger, more durable – their children fit for survival in my vision of the world”

The difference between Omens and Words is the area of their effects:


Divine Omen 1 AP: From a single person to an average-sized town's worth of people. A section of an army. An exceedingly sparsely populated area.

Divine Word 3 AP: Anywhere from a large city's worth of people. A small army in its entirety. A rural, but settled are to a large nation or kingdom, and all within it, including settlements of any size. Anyone matching a SPECIFIC descriptor (I.e., Arcane Spellcasters, Commoners, those who worship a certain god)

Anything broader than a word would require a Divine Decree and the use of an Infusion.


Blesses and Curses can be countered by other gods, however. Each time it is countered, it becomes harder and harder for the gods to exert their will over each other. An omen only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

Do not treat “curse wars” like this:

1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
3 AP: Recreate super healing plants.
4 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
5 AP: Recreate super healing plants.


Treat them Like this:


1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Super healing plants are struck with a disease like real world plants and large cluster of them die because of lack of genetic diversity, now they only exists but far spread out, rarer and never in large clumps.
3 AP: Super healing plants emit an aura that make them easy to find.
4 AP: Plant poisonous plants around the world that emit the same aura, look the same and kill instantly, so a person looking for these plants will have to journey towards them but will never know if they will die or survive at the end of the journey.
5 AP: Create spirit guides that aren't an actual species but a manifestation of that super healing plant's benevolence, and like the will o' wisps in "Brave" they lead people away from the poisonous plants.


Heroes and Legends

What are myths without heroes? You may create a mortal to work in your gods stead or even against yourself on the material plane.


1 AP Promote Leader: Leaders are more like bureaucrats to a hero’s warrior. They are important and powerful – but they aren’t what epics are written about. They can be spy masters, mob bosses, kings, guild leaders etc. They don’t grant any bonus, but you don’t need a nexus to promote them and you can have as many as you like.
3 AP Raise Hero: You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. You may only have 1 Hero per organization. A Hero grants +1 AP at rollover (This AP can be used to pay for the organization’s upkeep – when the organization falls, your hero loses this 1 AP bonus). The trick is to expend this extra AP in a way to enhance the Hero’s stature – don’t just use the Hero to farm for more AP – try to tell a story with the hero. Make us care.
3 AP Create Legend: You may create a legend out of a hero. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. The only other restriction is that a hero must have existed for at least 2 rollovers to become eligible to becoming raised to a legend – you can also create a legend out of a leader but only provided that the leader has existed for at least 4 rollovers! A legend is basically a demi god. In fact Legends count as fledging gods that may not use an enhance domain or gain domain action. They gain 2 AP each rollover. You may only have 1 Legend at any one time.


Life

Life is defined here as anything animate that can act of its own, or a god's will. Humans, Golems, and Undead, all fall under this category.


Mundane Life 1 AP: You create non-Sentient Animals (bugs, germs, gerbils) (you may use this action for free any amount of times when you use a create land action or an alter land action.)
Monstrous life 1 AP: non-sentient monsters Giant Spiders, Dire Animals, Purple Worms, or hell, Dinosaurs. You can't use an alter land action/create land action and make monstrous life. So while you can use alter land to make a land full of honey and bees without a mundane life action, you can't make Jurassic park with dinosaurs with just an alter or create land action.
Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life
Create magical life 3 AP: If the sentient life you create has any innate OR APTITUDE for magical abilities simply by existing then use this action instead. (I.E. elves)
Fabled life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Giants, Vampires, Fey, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings.



Create Concept


-Mundane 1AP: Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts.
- Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts.
- Magical 3 AP: Magical Concepts are ways of using power that allow the wielder to accomplish great things. Pyromancy, Necromancy, Abjuration, Healing these are all Magical concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.[
-Legendary 5 AP: Like Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are far from mundane. However, unlike Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are more than ways to use power. They are power itself. Arcane Magic, or Divine Magic, Immortal Souls, Afterlife are examples of Legendary Concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing. ALL MODERN/SCIFI CONCEPTS ARE LEGENDARY.


Gain Domain

4 AP Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 16 AP worth of AP since the last time they used this action.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-29, 01:48 PM
Evolve stuff and Theme stuff

The problem with Evolve Physically, is I always feel like when you make minor changes to your character you are simply looking for the best bit of bonus. This should be an invent, (As should anything that is changing the nature of a God) and should have huge effects felt worldwide.

When I see your Gods who simply forge new armor, or move their bits around a small amount, it makes me weep. In LoCitp, when someone did this action, they completely changed what their character looked like. Not only that, but it was normally accompanied by a large event with their people or their lands, or their ongoing story.

Two examples from LoCitp:

The God of uncreation changed from one magnificently described abomination to a completely different type 3 times during the game. Each time was a new age for his undead nations, marking the turning of reality.

The God of Knowledge and fire almost destroyed the world with fire, and ejected the lion's share of his flames and emotions into making the sun, and his son, however he was overwelmed by his own burning home and chains came out holding him in place. Later on, as a God's war came upon the world, The God ripped his own skin off to get the chains off so he could defend the world.

You see? Those are major events, and almost everytime that action was taken it had a major event tied to it adding lore to the world. The problem is, it needs to be renamed. So that reforging your armor or moving a few stars around can be considered for it without bringing grand ideas along with it.

Themes have caused a lot more problems then solved. I would rather leave it at that.



Lady Tialait did we ever play together? My first LOC was run by Milo (Dawn of Abel) Since then i've been around - like a cold sore :smalltongue:. anyway thanks for your input. . . some questions:


So you would not be ok with just artifact thematic bonuses?
I too think divine decrees are good - but im interested in your insight into why they are needed?
Finally what would you propose for the concept ideas? Lets say a player does want to make logic or love?


I don't think we ever did, I think you would have remembered me, i'm a firecracker sometimes.

Questions!

1. The problem with artifacts is that they don't really change the lore of the world, or the make up of the world...not how they are. Every point of AP you spend should either effect the lore of the world, or change the world's physical make up. This is how we end up with the stated goal of LoC, to create a setting. No body cares about the weapons the Gods wield, or the great magic they use, or anything like that. Personally I think the only good thing to use Create Artifact for is to make Artifacts that can be used when playing in the setting to bring about grand adventure. That can be achieved thematically better with Blesses/Curses to me.

2 I love the idea of them, I havn't seen them in practice. However, it would help with Death Gods in creating and enforcing the afterlife rules, allowing the God of Magic to decide how magic works. It's brilliant. my suspension is people will simply ignore them, and that is where the mods need to come in and remind them of the Edicts. To me this does what Themes are meant to do, create a unity in the world. I love it.

3 This should be something embodied by the Gods themselves. Portfolios I think need to be there instead of concepts. If you want to create something abstract then make it part of your divine essence. This is a two-fold solution, one it makes it clear who created what concepts, and allows for the portfolios to have a purpose as they have always been kind of lackluster.

Deadlykire
2013-05-29, 02:09 PM
So, I've yet to understand how the whole combat system works out. I gained the understanding from this thread that the combat system partially relied on a player's domains (as in a player with more domains gains a slight advantage). In this sense, and also to combat the "non-focused" comment, I'd suggest limiting your domains more. If I was a god worried about 14 domains (oh my...) then yes, I'm going to forget about my creations. But if I'm a god worried about only 5 domains, then each of my creations is more valuable.

I'm more than willing to give up such a campaign to lower domains, but I ask that an experienced mod or player then explain to me how the multitude of domains helps.

I think the focus of this game should be on the world itself. Anything that doesn't have an effect on the world isn't needed. If relics cannot exist in the realm of mortals, then they move the game away from world building and into playing the game as a "game" itself.

Shmee
2013-05-29, 02:25 PM
I'm actually surprised that after all these years, people are still trying to revise the LoC rules. Also as this seems to have attracted several LoC Veterans, I just can't resist giving my 2 cents.

I was also one of those who took part of the original LoCiTP, and following the end of it, joined several others... perhaps at least a dozen or so, some ended within a few months, some others actually reaching the targeted 35th week. I have also participated several times in changing the rules and had several discussions with other players about fixing LoC, so although I'm not sure if I would join a new LoC (mainly due to the fact that I've played so many that I've ran out of ideas for original god concepts) I could point out some of the basic issues I have experienced with LoC, that have been nagging us as we tried to change the rules of the game.

The Objective of LoC


I know this has been mentioned several times, but you can't imagine how many people see a LoC game and treat it as if its a god campaign rather than a project to build a campaign setting. From my experience, I'd say over all there may have been 2... maybe 3 LoC settings that were actually used for a Campaign setting, one of them being LoCiTP. If we consider the original LoCitP's ultimate objective of using it to create a Campaign setting? Then LoC has generally failed on that aspect.

I know that in each LoC the whole "World Building Project" is mentioned several times, but in the end, it really depends on how the players treat the game, regardless of how the rules are made. As Rizban has mentioned several times LoC just ended up being a story of a power trip of the MODs. In fact, LoCiTP was about more or less everyone banding up against a MOD who just wanted the game to revolve around his characters.

Another problem that I found with LoC, is the problem of who and how do you steer this game? Normally there is an ADMIN, who nominates a few MODs. This can create two problems, the first being that if an ADMIN and the MODs seem to be too controlling of a Free Form Game such as LoC, then most likely will rebel against the ADMIN & MODs and things will spiral down as people will just focus on trying to score a victory over the other.

However, you have the other extreme case, were if the ADMIN & MODs leave the players to do their own thing, then people will not know what to do and will lose interest in the game, as they are waiting for others to provide them with a plot. There was such a case in LoC III, were Tia and I played a huge event between her god of Creation and my god of Tyranny. After 20 weeks of more or less burning the world down as the players had to chose between two evils, we successfully pulled the event off to an epic conclusion and sat back to let the players to deal with the aftermath... sadly no one knew what to do, and the game died a few weeks after.

You'd be surprised how many times plot hungry players would jump at the slightest hint of plot. In one case were we had 3 evil gods against the rest of the world... we could not as much as sneeze without having everyone throwing nukes over our heads cause they had nothing else to do. That particular game died out pretty fast.

Also, one of the purposes of LoCiTP was to promote Homebrewing, thus helping to make the whole set unique. However since LoCiTP I can't remember another case were we saw a LoC encouraging people to Homebrew. I'll admit... I know nothing about Homebrewing, but still I remember having some experienced Homebrewers (Draken, Riz and Tia) who were helping others out.




Player Interaction


This I would say is the biggest of issue with LoC. Its not just how the players interact with each other, but also how they interact with the rules and setting. No matter how fool-proof you think you can make the LoC rules, the players will always find a way to abuse a certain aspect. We've all done it at one point or another, and in fact at one point we used to play-test new rules with the intend to find ways to abuse them. Maybe one of these days I will be proved wrong of course.

Unfortunately one of the issues I have encountered while playing LoC is the unwillingness of people to play along. That's right...some people want to win LoC and win at all costs. Sometimes the rules of LoC are such that the game really becomes a little bit too competitive for its own good. In other cases, the rules have it that you need to spend so much time and AP to build up something (like mortals or a civilization) that touching it will be considered something bad as you are destroying their hard work. This was especially the case during the "Civ Rules" era of LoC which I think has been mentioned.

Rizban has touched enough on the MODs who were on a power trip, so I really have nothing more to add on that.

I guess a lot of these problems really stem from poor communication between the players. Nothing can be done about this rule wise of course, but when the players have come together and shared ideas and plot points, the game really did become interesting.



Too many LoCs


Yeah... its not just a case of too many LoCs, it is also that there have been just so many of them in GiTP. Not only that... many LoCs seem to have the life span of a fruit fly (Considering the original objective is to reach 35 weeks of gameplay) yet I've seen some of them die out before it even reaches a month old.

When you get players who invest so much time and creativity to make a character, spends hours typing up detailed posts about the world and building it... then only to suddenly find that the game has died... eventually there will be fatigue. I have played at least a dozen LoC, and after each one would die I would think to myself "if this game is going to die... should I be bothering putting so much effort?"

My point is... instead of having several LoCs running at the same time, make one... but make it count!


Anyway I'll stop for now, unless I am to go on a rant about "the good ol' days of LoC" and start "get off my lawn!" I'll have a read over the rules and see what to make of them.

rweird
2013-05-29, 02:29 PM
EVERYONE: Rizban brought up a good point. He says RCR should cost AP to initiate. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Agree, Disagree? Not care? Have some other idea? I think it very well might fix some of the RCR problems we currently are debating.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 02:35 PM
EVERYONE: Rizban brought up a good point. He says RCR should cost AP to initiate. Does anyone else have thoughts on this? Agree, Disagree? Not care? Have some other idea? I think it very well might fix some of the RCR problems we currently are debating.

Sure I can't see how that will be bad. But how much AP should it cost? Same/more/less than AP to aid?

Lady Tialait
2013-05-29, 02:37 PM
It should be three rounds, each with a Mold Land given freely to the victor. And cost 3 AP to initiate.

Shmee
2013-05-29, 02:44 PM
Ugh... Aiding during divine combat...

In LoCiTP we had a case were a DR13 got his ass kicked by a DR1. It was also the reason why players started moving around in groups, so that everyone can jump in, in case they are attacked.

We even had a case were a played refused to roll for 3 days while he called for everyone to come Aid him. After that we just dropped Aiding during divine combat.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-29, 02:47 PM
As the victim of that attack, I will say it was pretty silly. Not as silly as B.O.B. who was both epic, and silly.

Shmee
2013-05-29, 02:55 PM
Yup. And my Eldrich goddess of Healing, Good and Humans was a mean Aiding machine... and you just happened to be the first victim :smallbiggrin:

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 03:05 PM
Well this is my current proposal for RCR/Loss stuff - Intended to be a compromise for everyone! :smallsmile:


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may take up 2 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle
13) The winning player mayimpose the following choices on the loser

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack and a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or thematic relic.
4) Mercy (Nothing)

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-29, 03:10 PM
So...with what you have here if I was to have a powerful combat God, and attack the same God let's say 7 times, and maim them each time, I could use them as an effective AP battery?


Also, could you define what a Thematic bonus is for me? I would like to know what kind of bonuses you are talking about.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 03:14 PM
So...with what you have here if I was to have a powerful combat God, and attack the same God let's say 7 times, and maim them each time, I could use them as an effective AP battery?

I mean that would cost 14 AP. And in response (saying you win each time and there is no draw ever and no one ever helps him or attacks you) you will get 14 AP of free land actions showing the battle and 7 more free relic/land actions desribing his body parts becoming moons/mountains/rivers/etc (Isn't that sort of what we want? tangible world building).

So yes I guess? I mean you will run out of AP at the end, since it does not replenish your AP and instead give you free actions


Also, could you define what a Thematic bonus is for me? I would like to know what kind of bonuses you are talking about.

For me it means something that does not give you a RCR bonus or free AP.

So some sort of cool effect really:

God A maims God B and tears off his Arm. God B happens to be the god of fire. God A crafts the arm into a flamming scythe. The fire of the scythe can never be put out

some thing li..... yeah that might be abused hmmm

so you have a better word for describing what i'm trying to get at? Basically. . . oh I got it!

A cosmetic bonus!

Shmee
2013-05-29, 03:15 PM
Are players allowed to share Artifacts? I cant see it if its mentioned in the rules or not, but it is an important point when it comes to divine combat.

Also those who aid during combat, are they able to to either impose or receive penalties depending if they are on the wining or losing side?

Lady Tialait
2013-05-29, 03:17 PM
I mean that would cost 14 AP. And in response (saying you win each time and there is no draw ever and no one ever helps him or attacks you) you will get 14 AP of free land actions showing the battle and 7 more free relic/land actions desribing his body parts becoming moons/mountains/rivers/etc (Isn't that sort of what we want? tangible world building).

So yes I guess? I mean you will run out of AP at the end, since it does not replenish your AP and instead give you free actions

That part is fine with me, however once I beat the other God into submission, he cannot effectively fight me, so I just use my AP to beat on him changing the world from this, and forcing him to do my bidding forever. A fate far worse then death.


You spend 2, get 2 mold lands, 1 more relic/land action, plus force them to spend 1 of their AP after they have a penalty greater then their combined combat bonuses. The system would be just kinder to allow killing them.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 03:21 PM
Are players allowed to share Artifacts? I cant see it if its mentioned in the rules or not, but it is an important point when it comes to divine combat.

Also those who aid during combat, are they able to to either impose or receive penalties depending if they are on the wining or losing side?

No sharing. You can give your RCR artifacts away, but they still count towards your total.

And the aiders can implore or give counsel to the winner, but they have no choice in the matter if they win. And if they are on the losing side then nothing bad can happen to them but they can beseech the winner for mercy upon the winner


That part is fine with me, however once I beat the other God into submission, he cannot effectively fight me, so I just use my AP to beat on him changing the world from this, and forcing him to do my bidding forever. A fate far worse then death.

Hmm. . . i sort of like that. . . it makes sense :smallamused:. But how about instead of -1/-1 its just that he comes back with 1 less HP? Idk what do you think would fix this outher than a limit on RCR

How about:


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may take up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle
13) The winning player mayimpose the following choices on the loser

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus.
4) Mercy (Nothing)

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.
16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row


So under this formulation you can spend a max of 4 AP: You get 2 free 1 AP actions. 1 free AP. And may take 2 of the victory options. the AP heavy reward one is the maiming - so you can make two artifacts/relics 2 more lands. So that would be 4 AP spent (I'm going to say artifacts/relics are 2 AP here) for around 7 AP.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-29, 03:29 PM
I didn't really like a limit on the amount of divine combat.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 03:30 PM
I didn't really like a limit on the amount of divine combat.

Oh. . . so what would your solution to your own critique of my RCR proposal be? :smallsmile:

=====

BTW here are my proposed rules in case anyone missed them (including the above RCR proposal) I tried to include everything. Any critiques are EXPECTED :smallsmile:. (things missing are society vs society RCR rules)

Ill post them in the OP as well :smallsmile:

Character Creation

A Godly Name
ONE Domain from the Available list (choose what that domain gives you; 1) +2 to Attack; 2) +2 to defense; 3) 2d6 extra HP; OR 4) knowing when someone else is using an action tied to that specific domain
An associative portfolio
And a character description: include Alignment and goals here.

You start off with 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense, 10 HP plus whatever you choose with your additional domain.

Other Rules

You gain 2+X AP per rollover, where X is how many domains you have. 5 is the maximum number of domains you may have.

Rank Name| Weekly AP | Infusions| Required Domains
Fledgling Deity | 3 |1 |1
Lesser Deity | 4 |1 |2
Intermediate Deity | 5 | 2 |3
Greater Deity | 6 | 2 |4
Elder Deity| 7 | 3 | 5


Gods above Fledging may not access the material plane

You may only have 1 Shard per every 2 Domains you have.

you start with 15 AP.

RCR


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may take up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle
13) The winning player mayimpose the following choices on the loser

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus.
4) Mercy (Nothing)

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.
16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row


Pantheons

When you a born into the game - you automatically join a pantheon between your progenitor and yourself, unless your progenitor is already part of a pantheon and in that case you will join that pantheon. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time.

The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader.

Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon. A god is never forced to use AP to fulfill an order.

But being a leader brings it's own responsibilities. The leader of any pantheon must obey these rule:


Pantheon leader cannot openly act against the good of the pantheon. If he does, the strongest member may challenge him for the crown. Strongest is Highest Rank. If more than one player is tied for highest rank it is the one with highest AP. A challenge is not an RCR challenge but a democratic vote between the pantheon members. The challenger and challengee do not get to vote (meaning that an effective change of command can only work in a pantheon with 3 or more members). This also means unpopular pantheon leaders can be displaced. The ousted leader will become a regular member of the pantheon.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members.
Pantheon leader must defend members of his pantheon against attacks of other gods (that he knows of), either by himself or by sending other members of the pantheon.



Create Pantheon: 1 AP
Join a pantheon: 1 AP
Subordinate your pantheon to another pantheon: 1 AP.


Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

During Rollover you must reuse the Form Organization action, or your organization dissolves.

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.


1 AP Form Society
2 AP Create Nation
1 AP Form Organization


Land Actions

A big part of being a god is changing the landscape around you!


Alter Land 1 AP: Alter land allows a god to change already existing landscapes. It can be used to create mountain ranges, vast forests, lakes, swamps, or any other kind of "land type" you could think of. This includes razing and raising cities! Alter land can also be used to raise small chains of islands from the sea. These islands cannot be very big, but can be large enough to support a small kingdom. Think about the size of Hawaii. Alter land actions can also be used to change the layout of existing land, such changes can be the creation of the largest mountain in the world to the greatest forest.

Create Land 2 AP: allows a god to create land where there is none. It can be used to raise a small continent from the sea, or create large, floating islands in a plane where there is no planet. Land created by Create Land can be up to the size of Russia

Forge Astronomical Object 3AP: Use this action to create a celestial body such as a moon, planet, asteroid, or sun. If your astronomical object has special properties such as an empathic link to yourself, or can move contrary to the rules of gravity and physics – it is a Relic NOT an Astronomical Object

Form Nexus 1AP: You may create a location of mystic and divine energy connected to a preexisting sanctum your god control/owns. A nexus may be a building, a door, a portion of a forest, a specific cave, but must be a specific location – it cannot be “the ocean.” Promoting mortals to higher rank of mortal can only occur in a Nexus.

Weave Sanctum 2 AP: You may create a location of divinity attuned to your god. This location may be anywhere not on the material plane. Your seat of power may be a layer of a plane, or a simple foreboding castle. Gods may only enter another God’s sanctum if they have permission or initiated combat.

Imagine Plane 5AP : Imagine Plane allows a god to create the fabric of their own reality. Planes are entire dimensions apart from the normal world, and can take any form a god can imagine. Hell, Heaven, or Limbo, are examples of planes. When weaving a plane, the creating god must decide on any special features it has, such as accelerated time, or empowered magic. A god may also decide how many layers there are initially. This can vary from one, to thousands, though most planes have less than three. Unlike a sanctum a god gets no special benefit for being within his or her own realm or plane. Your god does not "own" a plane he made - in fact other gods creating and living in a plane you made is encouraged!!


Relics and Artifacts:

Relics are powerful items that would destroy any mortal who is not a Legend, if they tried to use one. Only gods have the force of will to wield a Relic; while the reverse is true for Artifacts: An artifact is a powerful item or tool. They are imbued with power beyond that of most mortal's imagining. Artifacts can do many things, from resurrecting the dead, to causing small earthquakes. Artifacts are the tools of Mighty Heroes. Gods cannot wield artifacts; the sheer force of divine power would crush an artifact within seconds.

Relics when they are made can only do 1 of two things:

Grant a cosmetic bonus for roleplaying effect
OR grant +1 to attack; OR +1 to defense; or +1d6 to HP

You may only create 2 non-cosmetic relics per each domain you have (maximum is thus 10)

Artifacts may only grant cosmetic bonuses


Relics are 2 AP
Artifacts are 2 AP


Infusions

Infusions are the vestiges of your divine spark. You have 1 infusion available when the game starts and you gain 1 more infusion when you gain 3 domains, and a third and final infusion when you gain 5 domains.

With the expenditure of an infusion you may:


5 AP Unfold Divinity: Your powers as a god increase as you flower into a form closer to your true divinity. From now on you will gain 1 extra AP per rollover for each time you used Unfold Divinity.

5 AP Break the Chains: You struggle to break the bars that keep you from the mortal plane. With this action you may ignore the rule forbidding gods above fledging from accessing the mortal world.

5 AP Divine Decree: While Divine Omens can affect a person and a divine word can affect a small nation the divine decree affects Everything Everywhere! The divine decree simply states a new constant of the universe; be that all life is immortal; that souls are real; the gravity does not exist; or even that everything is now yellow. Divine decrees can be countered with a divine word action or a divine omen action: but that action still only affects the usual area. So while divine decree can make everything feel love, a god can make the people of a small nation incapable of love through word, or a single person in capable of love through an omen


Omens and Words.

Omens and Words are the will of the gods made manifest. They can range from a golden age for an empire, or to increase the mortal population. The population that finds themselves under the pleasure of a god will find their crops prosperous and their ways smoothed, as the subtle magic of the god is worked in their favor, The population that finds themselves under the curse of a god will find their crops barren and their land blighted, as the subtle magic of the god works against them.

The important thing to remember is to try to keep Omen and Words subtle – the ocassional overt action of a god is impressive but it gets boring quickly – make blesses and curses much much more than: “everyone is super strong now” – instead go for blesses like “I impart the wisdom of martial training and harsh conditions to my people – over the years they become stronger, more durable – their children fit for survival in my vision of the world”

The difference between Omens and Words is the area of their effects:


Divine Omen 1 AP: From a single person to an average-sized town's worth of people. A section of an army. An exceedingly sparsely populated area.

Divine Word 3 AP: Anywhere from a large city's worth of people. A small army in its entirety. A rural, but settled are to a large nation or kingdom, and all within it, including settlements of any size. Anyone matching a SPECIFIC descriptor (I.e., Arcane Spellcasters, Commoners, those who worship a certain god)

Anything broader than a word would require a Divine Decree and the use of an Infusion.


Blesses and Curses can be countered by other gods, however. Each time it is countered, it becomes harder and harder for the gods to exert their will over each other. An omen only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

Do not treat “curse wars” like this:

1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
3 AP: Recreate super healing plants.
4 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
5 AP: Recreate super healing plants.


Treat them Like this:


1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Super healing plants are struck with a disease like real world plants and large cluster of them die because of lack of genetic diversity, now they only exists but far spread out, rarer and never in large clumps.
3 AP: Super healing plants emit an aura that make them easy to find.
4 AP: Plant poisonous plants around the world that emit the same aura, look the same and kill instantly, so a person looking for these plants will have to journey towards them but will never know if they will die or survive at the end of the journey.
5 AP: Create spirit guides that aren't an actual species but a manifestation of that super healing plant's benevolence, and like the will o' wisps in "Brave" they lead people away from the poisonous plants.


Heroes and Legends

What are myths without heroes? You may create a mortal to work in your gods stead or even against yourself on the material plane.


1 AP Promote Leader: Leaders are more like bureaucrats to a hero’s warrior. They are important and powerful – but they aren’t what epics are written about. They can be spy masters, mob bosses, kings, guild leaders etc. They don’t grant any bonus, but you don’t need a nexus to promote them and you can have as many as you like.
3 AP Raise Hero: You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. You may only have 1 Hero per organization. A Hero grants +1 AP at rollover (This AP can be used to pay for the organization’s upkeep – when the organization falls, your hero loses this 1 AP bonus). The trick is to expend this extra AP in a way to enhance the Hero’s stature – don’t just use the Hero to farm for more AP – try to tell a story with the hero. Make us care.
3 AP Create Legend: You may create a legend out of a hero. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. The only other restriction is that a hero must have existed for at least 2 rollovers to become eligible to becoming raised to a legend – you can also create a legend out of a leader but only provided that the leader has existed for at least 4 rollovers! A legend is basically a demi god. In fact Legends count as fledging gods that may not use a gain domain action. (they have 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP!) They gain 2 AP each rollover. You may only have 1 Legend at any one time. Legends dont have domains so they make or recieve non-cosmetic artifacts!


Life

Life is defined here as anything animate that can act of its own, or a god's will. Humans, Golems, and Undead, all fall under this category.


Mundane Life 1 AP: You create non-Sentient Animals (bugs, germs, gerbils) (you may use this action for free any amount of times when you use a create land action or an alter land action.)
Monstrous life 1 AP: non-sentient monsters Giant Spiders, Dire Animals, Purple Worms, or hell, Dinosaurs. You can't use an alter land action/create land action and make monstrous life. So while you can use alter land to make a land full of honey and bees without a mundane life action, you can't make Jurassic park with dinosaurs with just an alter or create land action.
Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life
Create magical life 3 AP: If the sentient life you create has any innate OR APTITUDE for magical abilities simply by existing then use this action instead. (I.E. elves)
Fabled life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Giants, Vampires, Fey, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings.



Create Concept


-Mundane 1AP: Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts.
- Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts.
- Magical 3 AP: Magical Concepts are ways of using power that allow the wielder to accomplish great things. Pyromancy, Necromancy, Abjuration, Healing these are all Magical concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.[
-Legendary 5 AP: Like Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are far from mundane. However, unlike Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are more than ways to use power. They are power itself. Arcane Magic, or Divine Magic, Immortal Souls, Afterlife are examples of Legendary Concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing. ALL MODERN/SCIFI CONCEPTS ARE LEGENDARY.


Gain Domain


4 AP Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 16 AP worth of AP since the last time they used this action.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-29, 03:36 PM
So might I suggest that if the majority of the player base is not going to let you attack their stuff, and opposes rules that let you attack their stuff, maybe trying to force the issue is in fact griefing.

If you were to suggest both of those things you would be:

1) Wrong on both counts
2) Not actually solve the issue with the system you're proposing.

IF the main player base didn't want others attacking their stuff and IF they opposed rules to that effect, then I would play a different game. Because what you're suggesting sounds both unfair and unfun.

And the day when carefully weighing a set of proposed solutions to a problem, deciding on one I think is best and providing carefully thought out, rational arguments in support of my position is considered griefing, that's the day I learn how to use an ignore button.


I think you need to consider whether you want to have PvP elements because it makes for a better story, or because you want to 'beat' other players at the game. Most of your arguments have been centered around the idea of enabling stories (about gods of War, Tyranny, Destruction; stories about ruins of civilizations, etc), but you've been staunchly opposing anything that actually makes people enjoy or appreciate having their stuff destroyed and encourages them to be open to it.

What about a balanced random conflict resolution system prevents people from enjoying having their stuff destroyed? I've had my stuff knocked over, kicked around, beaten on and vaporised in every LOC game I've played. And I still come back, so do all of the other regulars, with varying levels of appearance.


Thats the point of the system I suggested. Under something like that, with appropriate rewards, the game remains completely collaborative behind the scenes even if its confrontational out in the open, and furthermore it makes letting your stuff get destroyed an integral part of actually playing the game rather than an unfortunate thing to avoid or take measures against.

Your proposed solution doesn't change anything. Conflict is a part of life, the risk of loss is a part of games, if you have neither of those you may as well just cut out all of the creative roleplaying elements and go to the worldbuilding subforum to vote up a new campaign setting.

What makes LOC special is that it is a game. That's why we have recruitment threads in the recruitment subforum and why we play in the IC subforum instead of the worlbuilding subforum.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-29, 03:42 PM
Double posting because I still haven't recieved any feedback on the two changes to the system that I posted on page 14. One of which, (divine abilities tied to domains) was voted to be included into the new rules and you forgot to add, mystic :smallamused:

DOMAIN ABILITIES
Each time you select a domain (nature for example) you gain one of the following benefits:

1) A free 1 AP action per rollover that can be used to create something tied to your domain. Each subsequent time you take this, you gain another free 1 AP action. These free actions cannot be combined to make higher powered actions.

2) You know when someone else is using an action tied to your domain. You can make an RCR roll to determine the location or deity performing the action. Each subsequent time you take this you gain a +1 bonus to the roll.

3) You gain resistance to attacks (mundane and divine) that utilize your domain. You gain a +1 bonus to resist RCR attacks OR curses that affect you Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

4) Your attacks through this domain are more powerful. You gain a +1 bonus to RCR attacks OR curses that you cast Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

5) Mortals who worship you gain a +1 bonus to anything tied to your chosen domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

There's a couple clarifications that need to be made though for this system to work properly:

1) You don't have to pay AP to get these abilities, they come with your domain. Yes, that includes your first two domains.

2) When you pick up a new Domain/Portfolio, you pick ONE of these, not all five.

3) If you pick up the same Domain again i.e. Fire(Burninating) and Fire(Forge) you can pick a new ability to apply to the Fire Domain, or increase the bonus of your current ability.

4) The fluff of the abilities is up to you. I tried to keep them as general as possible so that they could be tailored to fit each god's needs.

5) In order for ability #2 to work, the "gods are not omniscient" rule must be heavily enforced. Gods might get a "feeling" that something is happening that should be under their purview, but not be able to pinpoint it without the expenditure of AP (through a bless action). I also propose a slightly different version of how that ability should work if people don't want it tied to RCR directly.

Domain Awareness: Whenever a Deity spends AP on an action that is tied to your domain (must be justified in OOC Thread) you may roll a 1d6. If you roll higher than the target's Divine Rank you successfully identify either where the event occured or who spent the AP. Each subsequent time you take this ability, you gain a +1 bonus to your roll.
Special: Any god may spend 1 or more AP to disguise their actions from any other gods trying to determine their actions. Each AP spent this way increases their effective Divine Rank by 1, and can increase their effective Divine Rank over the maximum for purposes of this roll only.
Normal: Gods must spend 1 AP to search for other gods and to spy on their actions. When spending AP this way, the God is allowed to roll 1d6 but cannot add any bonuses to their roll.

I think that kind of does it, although it'll probably need some tweaking if we use Preaplane's RCR system since it uses multiplicatives and I'm not that good at probability statistics.

================================================

CURSE/BLESS PROGRESSION

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Debilitating Roleplaying Effect (endless thirst or drought, sudden storm or blizzard, etc)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Deadly Roleplaying Effect (virulent plague, angels descend to claim all firstborn sons, crops wither and die for a century, heroic characters are immune)
3 |1 nation or organization| Wrath of the Gods is clear (plagues spread until stopped, massive destruction of land and property, heroic mortals suffer Debilitating Roleplaying Effects
4 |All organizations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Utter Devastation (swathes of endless fire rage across the land, cities sink into the ocean, Heroic Mortals suffer mechanical and roleplaying drawbacks)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apocalypse (entire races are wiped from existence, Immortal souls are put in danger, Heroic Mortals may be killed outright)
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

Bless Progression

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Powerful Roleplaying Enhancement (agelessness, superhuman abilities, designates a single Mortal as protected by the god)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Grand Roleplaying Effect (Seasons of plentiful harvests, discoveries of new and advanced technologies, evolutionary enhancement, significant environmental change)
3 |1 Nation or Organization| Blessings of the Gods is Clear (Mass Environmental change, Heroic Mortals gain Significant Roleplaying Benefit, Powerful Magics at work)
4 |All Organizations or Nations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Deific Favoritism (Heroic Mortals gain Mechanical and Roleplaying Benefits, Nations and Organizations gain Mechanical benefits, Lands and People are suffused with divine essence for various Roleplaying Effects)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apotheosis (Heroic Mortals become favored champions of the gods, Nations and Organizations gain significant divine influence, Lands become planar in nature
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

When using these charts, the maximum number of targets or maximum effect determines the AP cost, you add the AP cost for the number of targets with the AP cost for the effect to determine the total cost of the blessing/curse. For example: A blessing that Affects an Entire Nation (3 AP) with Agelessness (1 AP) is a 4 AP blessing, while a curse that affects one person with the loss of their Immortal Soul is a 6 AP curse, this means that the minimum cost for a curse or blessing is 2 AP, and the "maximum" is 12 AP. However the maximum can be higher if you are attempting to counter a specific curse or blessing.

There is one notable exception, you can spend 1 AP on a Bless action to make a single character protected by the gods. This protection saves them from non-targeted curse effects (plagues and such). It is intended to be used to designate significant characters that may become leaders, heroes, legends or seekers later in life. As such, this particular blessing cannot be countered.

Curse Wars

Curse Wars are when two players engage in an extended bout of cursing/blessing each others creations to counter a specific curse or bless action. Countering a Curse/Bless costs a number of AP equal to the original Curse/Bless +2, this additional AP cost is doubled for each subsequent counter-curse, so it becomes +2, then +4, then +8 etc.

Rabidmuskrat
2013-05-29, 03:42 PM
Instead of putting in a limit to divine combat, perhaps rather put in an option for the defending god to hide from his attacker?

How about the following:
Hide - 0Ap: The god hides himself away - disguised as a mortal, some crappy corner of the astral plane, a tiny little hidden private plane of existence, whatever - making him immune to RCR attacks. This effect ends as soon as he spends AP for whatever reason. This action can only be performed if a god has spent NO AP since he last lost a combat. It is performed by default if a god spends no AP for a full week (rollover to rollover).

Now inactive players are just hiding.

As an added bonus, suddenly its tough as balls to really kill a god.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 03:47 PM
I sort of think my 1/3/divine decree progression works slightly better and is neater than your variable bless/curse thing. I don't like players spending 15 AP on a curse :smallwink:. instead that mega curse should be a divine decree or just a regular curse. Save the AP for recoutnering it in creative ways.

Other than that your abilities were implented sort of . each new domain either gives you a bonus to HP/attack/defense or gives you divine awareness of the domain. So that takes care of 2), 3), & 4) in a way - I'm hopeful that battle will be described flavorfully.

I think I didn't implent 1) since that was too powerful considering that an infusion was needed for unfold divinity

and 5) is not implemented YET because we have not figured out how societies should fight yet.

Shmee
2013-05-29, 03:49 PM
Instead of putting in a limit to divine combat, perhaps rather put in an option for the defending god to hide from his attacker?

How about the following:
Hide - 0Ap: The god hides himself away - disguised as a mortal, some crappy corner of the astral plane, a tiny little hidden private plane of existence, whatever - making him immune to RCR attacks. This effect ends as soon as he spends AP for whatever reason. This action can only be performed if a god has spent NO AP since he last lost a combat. It is performed by default if a god spends no AP for a full week (rollover to rollover).


We actually tried something of the sort a while back. We had given the ability ( by spending AP) for a god to force another god into 1 on 1 divine combat without anyone being able to aid either side for the duration of the fight.

Then we had also given the ability for a god to avoid combat by also spending 1AP. The result? My Goblin god whom so many people wanted to kill went around fearlessly being all Goblin-like and annoying everyone, knowing that he is untouchable (considering he had a lot of AP stored in case of being attacked.)

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 03:54 PM
Instead of putting in a limit to divine combat, perhaps rather put in an option for the defending god to hide from his attacker?

How about the following:
Hide - 0Ap: The god hides himself away - disguised as a mortal, some crappy corner of the astral plane, a tiny little hidden private plane of existence, whatever - making him immune to RCR attacks. This effect ends as soon as he spends AP for whatever reason. This action can only be performed if a god has spent NO AP since he last lost a combat. It is performed by default if a god spends no AP for a full week (rollover to rollover).

Now inactive players are just hiding.

As an added bonus, suddenly its tough as balls to really kill a god.


Shmee explained why this is a bad idea.

Also random fact. We are among the highest Post to view ratio thread!! Despite the arguements I truly love how passionate everyone is about LOC :smallredface:

Rabidmuskrat
2013-05-29, 04:01 PM
To grief you have to spend AP. There is no way around this, even in the rules as they stand currently.

If you spend AP, you can be attacked. There is no way around this either.

So if you grief, you can be attacked. Hiding would provide no protection to griefers. Also, you have to LOSE a combat before you can hide and losing involves injury of some kind.

------

The key to defeating griefers is to make griefing more effort than the reward in terms of suffering they obtain. It is NOT to remove the tools you can use to interact with others. If gods can't be killed, it provides just as much protection to a griefer as it does to everybody else.

What you should not be able to do is permanently weaken a god by reducing his combat stats. THAT is going to throw the door open to griefers and abuse like you wouldn't believe. Rather just allow killing through tons of effort instead of this incremental breaking down where it just gets more and more inevitable.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 04:06 PM
What you should not be able to do is permanently weaken a god by reducing his combat stats. THAT is going to throw the door open to griefers and abuse like you wouldn't believe. Rather just allow killing through tons of effort instead of this incremental breaking down where it just gets more and more inevitable.

Hmm i never though that would be a big problem. I just thought it would be incredibly flavorful. I love Rizban's description of a god winning RCR and then plucking out the eye of another god and making it a small moon.

Also with the limitation set in place - death is still impossible - although you might choose death since the end result is your god would become a crippled slave. (:smalleek::smallfrown:). But by then the other god might lose, you might gain allies, etc.

SOLUTION?

You may fight any amount of time but each time you must choose something different betwen the four choices (so it effectively limits you to three rounds because of mercy and imprisonment and it stops you from using the poor guy as a punching bag)

Man on Fire
2013-05-29, 04:07 PM
Posting theme rules now with expanded describtions of the themes and some minor tweaks.


1. At the begining of the game all players vote for, or in other way agree on the theme of their world, choosing from the list below. This theme is supposed style of the world they are creating, decribing it's tone and appriorate tropes. Player are expected to work together and cooperate toward achieving this style of work, even if that means sometimes laying destruction on their own creations. GM can reward players who sacrifice their own works in order to make the world stick more to the theme.

Players may suggest their own theme or choose from the list below:

High Fantasy. Tales of wise wicked gods, fighting over control of the world. It's place for great heroic quests, epic battles and struggle of good and evil.
Examples: The Lord of the Rings, Sirmarilion, Fionavar Tapestry, Belgaraid
Heroic Fantasy. Quite similiar to High fantasy, whoever fight against evil rarerly takes form of great war and big quests, but rather small blattles fought by heroic individuals. It also allows things to be a bit nastier and grayer and line between good and evil dieties to get a bit blurred. Examples: Conan The Barbarian, Fahrd and the Gray Mouser, Thorgal, Greek Mythology
Low Fantasy. Generally can be seen as subversion of standard high fantasy - your knights wear sour armor, your heroes are pragmatic and often selfish, the ruling class is decadent and full of intrigues, the old traditions have been long forgotten and once virturous organisations became dogmatic and corrupted, but it also allows you to represents conflicts in gray and gray color scheme, where nobody is trurly evil. While all of these things can take place in high or heroic fantasy, low fantasy stands out as being devoid of typical high fantasy narrative and focusing on these topics more than your heroic fantasy.
Examples: Chronolicles of the Black Company, A Song of an Ice and Fire
Dark Fantasy. while it may be any kind of setting, it's really much more unpleasant place to live in. In this world the dark forces are much mroe present and are often winning. Much often than Low Fantasy, Dark Fantasy will have clear evil, and will allow more pure and heroic individuals, alongside the jaded ones, as long as the setting remains dark enough.
Examples: Berserk, Elric Saga
Parody. generally, when you feel like brining up some humor and mock the standard, boring, horribly serious tropes and settings, you go for this. Still allows place for big, dramatic plotlines and seriosu affairs, but remember to not take everythign too seriously.
Examples: Discworld, Kedrigern, Slayers, Melancholy of haruhi Suzumiya
Urban Fantasy. Under this term we understand here both settings in which fantastic creatures live in hiding from mundane humans, who go with their every day lives, and where the fantastic does exist openly in the modern, post-industrial society. It's a combination of modern-day style with fantatic tropes in any way.
Examples: America's Gods, Fables, Witches of Eastwick, Hellboy, Felix Castor
New Wierd. New Wierd is result of rejection of standard, stable tropes and an attempt to bring fresh and new into the fantasy genre, often breaking it's broders apart. It's one of the most interesting ideas to try in Lords of Creation because it's only requirement is to avoid typical fantasy setting. You shall see fantastic cities of industrial machien and magic, races of beings from wierdest dreams, postmodernism taken to it's fullest.
Examples: Perdido Street Station, Book of All Hours, Neverwhere, Iron Dragon's Daughter
Cosmic Horror: Mortals are insignificant, we're only playthings in the hands of all-powerful, alien gods, which we cannot even comprehend. This settign encourages creations of horryfing monstrorities and means for mortals to fight them, even if it's a losing, desperate fight. Horror tropes are encouraged. However, take a notice that it doesn't mean setting in which mortals cannto do anything, many cosmic horror stories, even written by Lovecraft himself, have them succeding, at last for some time.
Examples: Cthulhu Mythos, Devilman, Cabin in the Woods, Puella Magi Madoka magica, Berserk, Hellboy, Iron Dragon's Daughter, Thanos Imperative
Modern Fairy Tale. Stries inspired directly by fairy tales, more child-friendly, but that doesn't mean they're devoid of struggle and tragedy.
Examples: Catherynne M. Valente Orphan's Tales, C. S. Lewis Chronolicles of Narnia
Steampunk. Under this defition we understand all kinds of fantasy that combines fantastic, not necessary of steam machine variety, with aesthetics of times far after medival but still not set in our own present, mostly aiming at XVIII-XIX century. But taking such elements liek steam machine, cowboys or takign inspiration from Napoleonic wars is nto enough - you need to remeber about brinign up appriorate style, that combination of crazy yet known that makes it so popular genre.
Examples: Steel Detectives, Lat Exile, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norell, Temeraire, Wild, Wild West, League of Ordinary Gentlemen
Space Opera: Why limit yourself to one planet? In this setting gods shape entire galaxies - planet after planet, with their own species and ecology, cosmic empires and federations raising and conquering planets, alien invasions, and in all of it gods, all of it is possible in this genre where elements ofscience-fiction and fantasy merge.
Examples: Fourth World, Infinity Gauntlet, Thanos Imperative, Star Wars
Mecha Contraty popular belief, there is a lot ofp lace for the gods in this genre. Who else would create ancient civilisations and amazing giant robots? Not to mention those series that are fantasy, just with the robots. Remember however, in this setting, especially if you're evil, you might have at one point job to some guy in giant robot. Such is super robot way.
Examples: Mazinger Z series, Getter Robo Saga, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, Brave King GaoGaigar, Break Blade, Magic Knights Rayheart
Fantasy Shonen: World where brave, young people with fantastic powers, stand up to challenge, beign it either saving the world or protectign their friends. In such worlds gods are also welcome, if just to provide the basis of their mystic powers. You may also have to job a time or two in this setting.
Examples: Inuyasha, Saint Seya, Fairy Tail, One Piece, Claymore, Slayers, Bleach, Asura's Wrath
Magical Girls: Cuter equivalent of the fantasy shonen, thsi is the world where young girls shall raise to the challenge i nthe name of the moon. And here too is place for gods, operating throuh their young heralds. You may have to job to mortals in thsi one too.
Examples: Sailor moon, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, Symphogear
Lack of Theme


2) game is divided into Ages. Each Age lasts 15 rounds, which is roughly equivalent of from 1500 to 15000 years in the world. At end of each Age gods leave the world for one week - from 10000 to 100000 years in the world. Setting as made to this point becomes saved.

3) During one week pause new recruitation takes place, in which new players introduce their new gods and chose another theme from the list - they may either agree on theme chosen by previous generation of gods, or pick up their own.

4) At the start of new age all estabilished elements of previous setting are put on an auction. Players, both new and old generation, get 1000 points for each other player in the game, which they can use to bid any eastabilished element of the world. The one who gives the most takes that thing over.

5) Thigns that haven't been taken over by any player are destroyed. The exact way of their fall should be determined by their creator, and if he's nto present, GM or any willing player. GM or any willing player writest psot about cause of their destruction, without having to spend any AP on it.

6) For each 10 things player had bought, one, of that player's choice, gets destroyed. Player can write about it's destruction in any way he wants. Civilisations fall, curees and blessings loose their powers, orders or organisations become corrupted or annihilated, Relics get lost - that's only few of suggested way what can happen.

7) All heroes and leaders at start of new age are long pressumed dead. They aren't bided in licitation.

8) Younger generation of gods is expected to work on the theme they all agreed upon, while the older generations are expected on perserving the theme estabilished in previosu age. Both sides can attempt to subvert to their theme belongings of god of other theme, but we would advise asking said player about it first.

9) Once god chances part of the setting to fit hi theme, diety of other theme may undo the change, but never completely - you cannot just spend Ap and say this didn't happen, but you can reduce the problem. Think of it this way - gunshot woud can be patched and heal, but it will leave a mark of it being on your body, sometiem very significant.

10) Gods of different themes can join any pantheon they way, even if it's not of their theme, they follow appriorate pantheon rules.

11) Mods, or anybody, aren't allowed to tell any player to remove somethign because it doesn't fit chosen theme. Themes are in tone and aesthetics, specific elements of creation like races, landmarks and artifacts cannot not fit the theme - with right narrative everything can be presented in any way.


Also, we need to think of how GM can reward players for allowing destruction of their creations for the sake of theme.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-29, 04:08 PM
To grief you have to spend AP. There is no way around this, even in the rules as they stand currently.

If you spend AP, you can be attacked. There is no way around this either.

So if you grief, you can be attacked. Hiding would provide no protection to griefers. Also, you have to LOSE a combat before you can hide and losing involves injury of some kind.

------

The key to defeating griefers is to make griefing more effort than the reward in terms of suffering they obtain. It is NOT to remove the tools you can use to interact with others. If gods can't be killed, it provides just as much protection to a griefer as it does to everybody else.

What you should not be able to do is permanently weaken a god by reducing his combat stats. THAT is going to throw the door open to griefers and abuse like you wouldn't believe. Rather just allow killing through tons of effort instead of this incremental breaking down where it just gets more and more inevitable.

Who is responsible for bringing up this subject of griefers? :smallfurious:

Seriously, its a non issue. I've played 5 different games under 3 different rules sets and I haven't seen a single griefer. Anybody who acts like a **** is going to either get it from the players or the mods and then its over with.

Rabidmuskrat
2013-05-29, 04:17 PM
Hmm i never though that would be a big problem. I just thought it would be incredibly flavorful. I love Rizban's description of a god winning RCR and then plucking out the eye of another god and making it a small moon.

Also with the limitation set in place - death is still impossible - although you might choose death since the end result is your god would become a crippled slave. (:smalleek::smallfrown:). But by then the other god might lose, you might gain allies, etc.

It is indeed a very cool, very flavorful thing and fluff-wise it would be awesome. Once. Now consider a god that has had both eyes removed, his arms chopped off and one leg crushed. Not a very cool sight, is it?

Now consider that crunch-wise, with each loss the next one only becomes more and more likely. How many gods do you think are only going to lose a single eye? More likely, loss of combat stats are going to be like blood in the water and his opponent will attempt to finish the now weakened god so he can never be a threat again. That god is going to end up like the cripple above.

It's a fate far worse than dying in some epic duel to the death where you could possibly win, right until the very end. In fact, it is the exact thing griefers are going to love - the no-killing clause is just going to protect them. Why would I care if my combat stats become -100 if that doesn't stop me infecting all your followers with the plague EVERY DAY. On the other hand, a regular player is going to feel handicapped and powerless, exactly what a griefer is trying to achieve.

Edit: What I'm trying to say that griefers will always find a way to mess with you, no matter how petty, cheap or borderline cheating its going to be. You have to give players the tools to defend themselves. Best way to deal with a griefer? Kill him. No more griefer.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 04:20 PM
Heh- I did say you could choose death as the losing player to the alternative of being a bitter crippled slave always trying to avenge yourself with petty blights upon your masters followers (How great would that be in story :smallsmile:!)


It is indeed a very cool, very flavorful thing and fluff-wise it would be awesome. Once. Now consider a god that has had both eyes removed, his arms chopped off and one leg crushed. Not a very cool sight, is it?

Now consider that crunch-wise, with each loss the next one only becomes more and more likely. How many gods do you think are only going to lose a single eye? More likely, loss of combat stats are going to be like blood in the water and his opponent will attempt to finish the now weakened god so he can never be a threat again. That god is going to end up like the cripple above.

It's a fate far worse than dying in some epic duel to the death where you could possibly win, right until the very end. In fact, it is the exact thing griefers are going to love - the no-killing clause is just going to protect them. Why would I care if my combat stats become -100 if that doesn't stop me infecting all your followers with the plague EVERY DAY. On the other hand, a regular player is going to feel handicapped and powerless, exactly what a griefer is trying to achieve.

Lets pretend LOC games are infected with griefers what about my proposed solution:


You may fight any amount of time but each time you must choose something different betwen the four choices (so it effectively limits you to three rounds because of mercy and imprisonment and it stops you from using the poor guy as a punching bag)

?


=====

Oh man I forgot to incorprate the theme idead. . . Ill get on that tomorrow!

Shmee
2013-05-29, 04:21 PM
It is indeed a very cool, very flavorful thing and fluff-wise it would be awesome. Once. Now consider a god that has had both eyes removed, his arms chopped off and one leg crushed. Not a very cool sight, is it?


We once had someone come up with a solution to that "Spend 1AP: Create Concept: Heal my Left Eye"

... of course the joke was the player had missed the whole point completely of how divine injury works... and the fact that no one spent 1AP to "Create Concept: Hurt his left eye."

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 04:27 PM
Or harm could give the losing player the ability to make an additional RCR artifact over his limit? that plus my proposed solution:

God A chops of Gods B's Arm (-1 to attack)
God A makes the arm into something cool - bone armor?
(The mountain range now has a huge valley where the gods fought)
God A continues his attack and then decideds to imprison the loser.
(The world deepest pit is created)
God B stays imprisoned building up his AP - finally he frees himself and then makes himself a golden ARM of gold (+2 to attack)
Now he attacks God A in venegance and wins chopping off his arm in retribution - sticking that arm in the pit he was imprisioned and huge mountain in the shape of an arm now. (-1 to defense)
He continues the attack win, but then shows mercy in disgust and leaves - wounding the other gods pride

Deadlykire
2013-05-29, 04:27 PM
feedback on Domain Abilities:

Why are you allowed to take the same domain multiple times? Portfolios seem to be aspects of the domain on which the god concentrates. If you wish to increase your portfolio maybe add it as part of the leveling up? Every time you increase in your deity power you may also add 1 portfolio to your existing domains? (Meaning 5 portfolios for the first max, 4 for the 2nd, 3 for the 3rd, 2 for the 4th, and only 1 for the final).

1) sounds good
2) Eh, I guess. Having not played the game I'm not sure how big of a deal this is. Maybe instead limit it to your creations? Thus A good nature deity won't know when an evil nature deity creates an corrupt grove.
4) I like it, gives a defenders bonus to someone trying to mess with "your" stuff.
5) Like it. Might mess with any "class" that would already get a buff (clerics/favored souls).

I'd also ask: would these abilities for the newest domain, or can I apply them to an existing domain (making my first domain stronger every time).

Rabidmuskrat
2013-05-29, 04:30 PM
Lets pretend LOC games are infected with griefers what about my proposed solution:


Personally, I think the griefer thing is blown way out of proportion. If the LOC games were really infested with griefers then you're screwed regardless. We are more dealing with the "what if there is this one guy being a pain in the bottom?" type worst case scenario.

Your proposed solution seems solid. Except, allow imprisonment and mercy to be repeated. Would kinda suck to have to take someone's eye because you already showed him mercy today.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 04:37 PM
Personally, I think the griefer thing is blown way out of proportion. If the LOC games were really infested with griefers then you're screwed regardless. We are more dealing with the "what if there is this one guy being a pain in the bottom?" type worst case scenario.

Your proposed solution seems solid. Except, allow imprisonment and mercy to be repeated. Would kinda suck to have to take someone's eye because you already showed him mercy today.

Oh I have to make clear the Mercy is sort of permenant (it would not make sense to show mercy then choose to fight again right away. And if the villan BEGS for mercy, recieves it and attacks you back? Imprison him! :smallsmile:)

Deadlykire
2013-05-29, 04:44 PM
Might I suggest a mortal system?

First... is the upkeep for mortals in or out?

Mortal Combat/Importance

Attempting to create a mortal system.
The original creation creates a number of the species according to AP cost.
1AP=1k
2AP=500
3AP+= 250

From here mortals increase in size at a set rate. I'd say they double every 3 weeks.

Population then determines their level of "organization".
{table]Original Creation AP|Population Required|Level
1 AP|2000|Tribe
2 AP|1000| Tribe
3 AP| 500 | Tribe
1 AP | 4000| Society
2 AP | 2000| Society
3 AP | 1000 | Society
1 AP | 12000 | Nation (Requires Capital)
2 AP | 6000 | Nation (Requires Capital)
3 AP | 3000 | Nation (Requires Capital)[/table]


I've got more, but don't want to spend the time fleshing this out more if people don't like/want the system. I'll happily describe combat, etc.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-29, 04:46 PM
The closes thing to Greifers LoC has ever had has been the Outsiders, who ended up being a major driving point of the plot and the greatest roleplaying I have seen in a LoC.

They would stand around causing problems, even to the point where they would get involved with mortal wars, but not in a way that anyone wanted them to. One example was where there was a cold war between the Elves and the Knolls, the Outsiders got involved by setting up a tea party between the two, and killing tons of them while they made their corpses dance 'thriller' for their own amusement.

This is epic, and awesome in it's own way, so it removes the threat from griefers. If you are worried about PVPers...well may I suggest something here:

When you get in a divine combat, and you lose there is a 5% chance your God dies, flat. Even if you intend to show mercy, you might end up killing the God. This stops AP slaves, and makes killing a God a heavy endevour and could create some devistating effects over the course of the story.


Mind you, be warned, it's my husband's birthday party here, and I may have had two or three Long Island Ice Teas....So, feel free to disregard me.

Man on Fire
2013-05-29, 05:32 PM
The problem with Evolve Physically, is I always feel like when you make minor changes to your character you are simply looking for the best bit of bonus. This should be an invent, (As should anything that is changing the nature of a God) and should have huge effects felt worldwide.

When I see your Gods who simply forge new armor, or move their bits around a small amount, it makes me weep. In LoCitp, when someone did this action, they completely changed what their character looked like. Not only that, but it was normally accompanied by a large event with their people or their lands, or their ongoing story.

Two examples from LoCitp:

The God of uncreation changed from one magnificently described abomination to a completely different type 3 times during the game. Each time was a new age for his undead nations, marking the turning of reality.

The God of Knowledge and fire almost destroyed the world with fire, and ejected the lion's share of his flames and emotions into making the sun, and his son, however he was overwelmed by his own burning home and chains came out holding him in place. Later on, as a God's war came upon the world, The God ripped his own skin off to get the chains off so he could defend the world.

You see? Those are major events, and almost everytime that action was taken it had a major event tied to it adding lore to the world. The problem is, it needs to be renamed. So that reforging your armor or moving a few stars around can be considered for it without bringing grand ideas along with it.

Then we misunderstood each other. I thought it's exactly that kind of things you are against. We had some players in our game who considered straying too far from original form a bad taste and wold scold others for it. But don't worry, in our game we also had players who would do some cool stuff with transformations, mostly related to character growth of the gods. We had god of Stone changing from stone giant to a black elf as a sign he shall no longer neglect Elves, he helped create, in favor of his personal race of Stone Golems. We had god of war transform into giant wyrm to lead fire dragons to war against other dragons (through I almost posted this as example of minor changes, because player picked pictures that were of the same artist and color sheme, so his wyrm form still looked similiar).

Actually, both of the examples of minor changes were also accompanied by important events for the characters. Forging the armor was important sing of the direction the god's character was going into - god of balance, always seen as mediator, decided he has enough of god of stone's BS and forged an armor to show he will stand against him and defend his people from him. It happened after huge brawl between God Stone and Godess of Thunder (who aided demons god of balance created as his surrogate god in killing god of stone's herald), war between stone and iron golems, exile of higher gods from mortal world, huge argument between two strongest gods around - god of stone and god of balance - that resulted in new members in each of their pantheons and the two groups entering divine cold war. So god of balance, to this point either having a form of hermit or some variation of white wolf, got himself a suit of armor to show he will fight against god of stone.

The stars thing took years in which god of Chance studied and polished his creation, making himself basically one with the stars on mental level. He had minor form of this later, when he took another form, that was quite as his old, only older and wearing darker colors - up until this point his diety was a child, it was sign he finally matured.

We had few form changes to show either charater's personality traits - god of blood's first action was take a form of beautiful man to show he despises his monstrous true form - or character growth. Godess of air took new form as result of despair that took over her heart after she got seduced by one of the worst bastards in the story and gave birth to monstrous child. God of time, a dragon, took new, more humanoid form to remind himself to never forget about mortals, after god of balance lectured him with how insignificant they are, which pissed him off. Godess of knowledge took human form when she decided she is tired of hiding and wants to live her life as everybody else.

And then there was my godess of war, who woudl take very different forms. From human warrior to giant, red wolf (who became elven boogeyman that kidnapped children and turned them into not-orcs) to giant spider (which caused nightmares and visions aroudn the world and was sing she stops fooling aroudn and starts playing long game), to entire plane of ruins (that became afterlife for great warriors to honor herworshippers who have fallen in great war) to scorpion lady (which happened after she turned entire city into giant humanoids scorpions to punish elves for worshipping her [long story]). In the end her different forms started a war agaisnt each other that ended with all of them but one dying and that one absorbing the others and becoming lord of creation.

Evolution as it is is god, it allows flexibility - some players want to tie big events and huge form changes to it, some however preffer staying close to the first idea and not diverging too much.



Themes have caused a lot more problems then solved. I would rather leave it at that.

Because I'm really confused how, I woudl really like to know. Send me a PM if you feels it coudl get you in trouble posting this in public.

Rizban
2013-05-29, 05:38 PM
So might I suggest that if the majority of the player base is not going to let you attack their stuff, and opposes rules that let you attack their stuff, maybe trying to force the issue is in fact griefing.

I think you need to consider whether you want to have PvP elements because it makes for a better story, or because you want to 'beat' other players at the game. Most of your arguments have been centered around the idea of enabling stories (about gods of War, Tyranny, Destruction; stories about ruins of civilizations, etc), but you've been staunchly opposing anything that actually makes people enjoy or appreciate having their stuff destroyed and encourages them to be open to it.

Thats the point of the system I suggested. Under something like that, with appropriate rewards, the game remains completely collaborative behind the scenes even if its confrontational out in the open, and furthermore it makes letting your stuff get destroyed an integral part of actually playing the game rather than an unfortunate thing to avoid or take measures against.Define "majority". From what I see, it seems fairly evenly split between the two positions with only 2 to 3 staunch supporters on each side.

I have nothing against rewards for combat, one way or the other.

I care more about combat as way to "force" interaction and as a tool for the player base to police itself.

The fact that it can also lead to some really cool stories is also great.



And this is the crux of what we've spent the last five hundred posts discussing. We can't even agree on what the focus of the game is: the Setting or the Game itself.

As I understand it, Lords of Creation started as a way of communally generating campaigns for later use. Newer iterations of the game focus on playing the game for the game itself. It follows that players get attached to their characters and creations when they start playing this way. It's no longer about the Setting but about the Game.The original was a game for the sake of the setting, and we did things that would be cool for the setting for the sake of the setting, even if it wasn't the "most optimal" for our personal characters. Not everyone played that way, but the vast majority of players in that game did. It led to a really cool story overall.


From the Setting viewpoint, everything is disposable in the end. Every creation and god is just a prop ready to be sacrificed in the name of good storytelling.

From the Game viewpoint, everything I just said is senseless. It's not about the setting; it's about the players. Destroying all of their hard work for some pointless story just isn't worth it.

So, do we want a setting generator or a game?I believe LoC should be both. I'm against the outright destruction of everything a player has contributed. However, anything that has been created should also have the capacity to be destroyed. Risk vs Reward.

The fact that something can be destroyed doesn't mean that it will be destroyed. It should be possible to do but not easy, and there should exist ways for the players themselves to prevent it, undo it, or otherwise stop disruptive players.



Personally, I have no problem with it alone. My problem is trying to use it to satisfy the "Setting" side's expectations. Simply having the entropic deities (Death, Destruction, etc.) play janitor doesn't sound very appealing.To use a metaphor, the "setting" side's expectations (or at least my own) are that we are creating a world with a vast tapestry of color, not knitting our own small doilies and throwing them in a pile.


DOMAIN ABILITIES
Each time you select a domain (nature for example) you gain one of the following benefits:

1) A free 1 AP action per rollover that can be used to create something tied to your domain. Each subsequent time you take this, you gain another free 1 AP action. These free actions cannot be combined to make higher powered actions.

2) You know when someone else is using an action tied to your domain. You can make an RCR roll to determine the location or deity performing the action. Each subsequent time you take this you gain a +1 bonus to the roll.

3) You gain resistance to attacks (mundane and divine) that utilize your domain. You gain a +1 bonus to resist RCR attacks OR curses that affect you Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

4) Your attacks through this domain are more powerful. You gain a +1 bonus to RCR attacks OR curses that you cast Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

5) Mortals who worship you gain a +1 bonus to anything tied to your chosen domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

There's a couple clarifications that need to be made though for this system to work properly:

1) You don't have to pay AP to get these abilities, they come with your domain. Yes, that includes your first two domains.

2) When you pick up a new Domain/Portfolio, you pick ONE of these, not all five.

3) If you pick up the same Domain again i.e. Fire(Burninating) and Fire(Forge) you can pick a new ability to apply to the Fire Domain, or increase the bonus of your current ability.

4) The fluff of the abilities is up to you. I tried to keep them as general as possible so that they could be tailored to fit each god's needs.

5) In order for ability #2 to work, the "gods are not omniscient" rule must be heavily enforced. Gods might get a "feeling" that something is happening that should be under their purview, but not be able to pinpoint it without the expenditure of AP (through a bless action). I also propose a slightly different version of how that ability should work if people don't want it tied to RCR directly.

Domain Awareness: Whenever a Deity spends AP on an action that is tied to your domain (must be justified in OOC Thread) you may roll a 1d6. If you roll higher than the target's Divine Rank you successfully identify either where the event occured or who spent the AP. Each subsequent time you take this ability, you gain a +1 bonus to your roll.
Special: Any god may spend 1 or more AP to disguise their actions from any other gods trying to determine their actions. Each AP spent this way increases their effective Divine Rank by 1, and can increase their effective Divine Rank over the maximum for purposes of this roll only.
Normal: Gods must spend 1 AP to search for other gods and to spy on their actions. When spending AP this way, the God is allowed to roll 1d6 but cannot add any bonuses to their roll.

I think that kind of does it, although it'll probably need some tweaking if we use Preaplane's RCR system since it uses multiplicatives and I'm not that good at probability statistics.This looks like a combination and slight modification of the two domain centric rule sets I authored awhile back. I'd be in favor of something like this, but other parts of the system must be changed to accommodate it. Otherwise, it can get to be too strong.


CURSE/BLESS PROGRESSION

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Debilitating Roleplaying Effect (endless thirst or drought, sudden storm or blizzard, etc)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Deadly Roleplaying Effect (virulent plague, angels descend to claim all firstborn sons, crops wither and die for a century, heroic characters are immune)
3 |1 nation or organization| Wrath of the Gods is clear (plagues spread until stopped, massive destruction of land and property, heroic mortals suffer Debilitating Roleplaying Effects
4 |All organizations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Utter Devastation (swathes of endless fire rage across the land, cities sink into the ocean, Heroic Mortals suffer mechanical and roleplaying drawbacks)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apocalypse (entire races are wiped from existence, Immortal souls are put in danger, Heroic Mortals may be killed outright)
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

Bless Progression

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Powerful Roleplaying Enhancement (agelessness, superhuman abilities, designates a single Mortal as protected by the god)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Grand Roleplaying Effect (Seasons of plentiful harvests, discoveries of new and advanced technologies, evolutionary enhancement, significant environmental change)
3 |1 Nation or Organization| Blessings of the Gods is Clear (Mass Environmental change, Heroic Mortals gain Significant Roleplaying Benefit, Powerful Magics at work)
4 |All Organizations or Nations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Deific Favoritism (Heroic Mortals gain Mechanical and Roleplaying Benefits, Nations and Organizations gain Mechanical benefits, Lands and People are suffused with divine essence for various Roleplaying Effects)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apotheosis (Heroic Mortals become favored champions of the gods, Nations and Organizations gain significant divine influence, Lands become planar in nature
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

When using these charts, the maximum number of targets or maximum effect determines the AP cost, you add the AP cost for the number of targets with the AP cost for the effect to determine the total cost of the blessing/curse. For example: A blessing that Affects an Entire Nation (3 AP) with Agelessness (1 AP) is a 4 AP blessing, while a curse that affects one person with the loss of their Immortal Soul is a 6 AP curse, this means that the minimum cost for a curse or blessing is 2 AP, and the "maximum" is 12 AP. However the maximum can be higher if you are attempting to counter a specific curse or blessing.

There is one notable exception, you can spend 1 AP on a Bless action to make a single character protected by the gods. This protection saves them from non-targeted curse effects (plagues and such). It is intended to be used to designate significant characters that may become leaders, heroes, legends or seekers later in life. As such, this particular blessing cannot be countered.

Curse Wars

Curse Wars are when two players engage in an extended bout of cursing/blessing each others creations to counter a specific curse or bless action. Countering a Curse/Bless costs a number of AP equal to the original Curse/Bless +2, this additional AP cost is doubled for each subsequent counter-curse, so it becomes +2, then +4, then +8 etc.I'm still completely against variable AP Bless/Curse and "Curse Wars" in general. If it costs more to undo something than it cost to do it to you, then that enables players to screw you, particularly if the player stored up AP just to screw you with big actions that you can't protect against.

Rizban
2013-05-29, 05:42 PM
Might I suggest a mortal system?

First... is the upkeep for mortals in or out?

Mortal Combat/Importance

Attempting to create a mortal system.
The original creation creates a number of the species according to AP cost.
1AP=1k
2AP=500
3AP+= 250

From here mortals increase in size at a set rate. I'd say they double every 3 weeks.

Population then determines their level of "organization".
{table]Original Creation AP|Population Required|Level
1 AP|2000|Tribe
2 AP|1000| Tribe
3 AP| 500 | Tribe
1 AP | 4000| Society
2 AP | 2000| Society
3 AP | 1000 | Society
1 AP | 12000 | Nation (Requires Capital)
2 AP | 6000 | Nation (Requires Capital)
3 AP | 3000 | Nation (Requires Capital)[/table]


I've got more, but don't want to spend the time fleshing this out more if people don't like/want the system. I'll happily describe combat, etc.My primary response to this is HELL NO.

I created a system much like this myself immediately after LoCitP. It was a disaster and a half and then some.

Queen Sapes
2013-05-29, 06:26 PM
I'd like to suggest a change to the rules regarding shards. I suggest that at fledgling level you can have one shard (so you can be in two places at once) and then two shards at intermediate (three places at once) and then that is it. I feel it would give a lot more opportunities for interaction early on and for new players who join in. Also, I recommend stating some sort of rule regarding shards in combat. I've seen big arguments brew over whether or not shards should count for bonuses, or whether or not they can fight on their own. As I personally view them, shards are just a god splitting itself in half (or thirds) and then doing separate things they are both aware of. I think they should be allowed to fight, albeit only as long as they are in separate places when fighting.

So basically, 1 shard at fledgling, 2 shards at intermediate (which will be the limit), and rules regarding shard use in combat.

Deadlykire
2013-05-29, 06:47 PM
I'd like to suggest a change to the rules regarding shards. I suggest that at fledgling level you can have one shard (so you can be in two places at once) and then two shards at intermediate (three places at once) and then that is it. I feel it would give a lot more opportunities for interaction early on and for new players who join in. Also, I recommend stating some sort of rule regarding shards in combat. I've seen big arguments brew over whether or not shards should count for bonuses, or whether or not they can fight on their own. As I personally view them, shards are just a god splitting itself in half (or thirds) and then doing separate things they are both aware of. I think they should be allowed to fight, albeit only as long as they are in separate places when fighting.

So basically, 1 shard at fledgling, 2 shards at intermediate (which will be the limit), and rules regarding shard use in combat.

Shards should be allowed to fight. If more than 1 shard from a god joins the fight, they are said to combine and fight as one. This does not grant any bonuses as they are the god.

An alternate would be, that if shards fight you must reduce your overall RCR by how many shards you have (aka if you have 2 shards each is worth 1/2 your total stats). I'm in favor of the first way I stated.

For mortal's in combat. I was thinking of a risk style system. Aka, 1d3 is rolled for each army present. Large/more advanced groups of followers get 1d4 or 1d6. Highest rolls are compared to see who loses which armies.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-29, 06:55 PM
Shards should be allowed to fight. If more than 1 shard from a god joins the fight, they are said to combine and fight as one. This does not grant any bonuses as they are the god.

An alternate would be, that if shards fight you must reduce your overall RCR by how many shards you have (aka if you have 2 shards each is worth 1/2 your total stats). I'm in favor of the first way I stated.

For mortal's in combat. I was thinking of a risk style system. Aka, 1d3 is rolled for each army present. Large/more advanced groups of followers get 1d4 or 1d6. Highest rolls are compared to see who loses which armies.

I'd go for something completely different.

Shards should not be allowed to fight. Attacking a shard instantly destroys it, revealing the attacker and the attacker's location to the God that was attacked. It doesn't count as an RCR loss and shouldn't penalize the god whose shard was destroyed in any way.

A shard serves as a messenger and a spy, it isn't powerful enough for a god to use as a combatant. That way gods can't attack or be attacked in multiple places at once. It also offers players a safe way to go out and explore without risking their god getting ka-face-smashed by the hypothetical entirely nonexistent straw man griefers that supposedly exist in all LOC games.


EDIT

I'm going to go ahead and throw all 146 lbs of my weight behind the Ages System again as a suitable compromise between those of us who play LOC as a god game and those of us who play it as a worldbuilding exercise.

With Ages of a proper RL length (i.e. one that still needs to be determined here), you have an opportunity to create multiple settings from one game, without having your chronicler(s) getting overwhelmed by the sheer volume of posts, while allowing people who are only interested in the play aspect to come or go at predetermined times so that they don't bog down the worldbuilders with junk that never gets developed.

I think I'm honestly more of a God Gamer than a Worldbuilder when it comes to LOC (sorry Rizban:smallfrown:). I'll use it to field some ideas or draw some inspiration for homebrews, but I like the storytelling opportunities of people's creations more than the act of creation itself. Not to say that I won't totally 'brew it up if the mood hits me.

Nexaduro
2013-05-29, 07:31 PM
I'm hoping to start a more backstabby game of LoC soon, and I have a few questions I could use help with.

Item the first: Omniscience. Sometimes, people want to keep secrets. Meta-game knowledge is often hard to separate from in-character knowledge, so I've seen powers and infusions and the like introduced to dictate the application of this. What I need is a way to remove this clunky, blatant set of interactions. I was thinking a modified sort of Divine Combat- with die for Obfuscation/Revelation or something- representing the penetrating gaze of one deity being turned upon the shrouded makings of another.

Item the second: Incorruptibility. My current idea for this is some sort of cumulative 'upkeep' of races and the like, so you can't just create a culture and be done with it. I think this might even be able to mesh with the 'era' premise I saw referenced on this page; this upkeep represents periods in a civilization's history, and if it is no longer paid, it collapses. This effectively causing a reversion to either non-sapient or uncivilized life, with deities able to pay one-time costs to either preserve their culture as an entity separate to the creator god (able to be reclaimed, minus any AP previously spent for their specific benefit), or eradicate them entirely. Ancillary to this would be concrete rules specifying deviance WITHIN an existing culture, allowing other gods to 'infiltrate' that society, or even steal away small portions for their own use.

Grinner
2013-05-29, 07:34 PM
Item the second: Incorruptibility. My current idea for this is some sort of cumulative 'upkeep' of races and the like, so you can't just create a culture and be done with it. I think this might even be able to mesh with the 'era' premise I saw referenced on this page; this upkeep represents periods in a civilization's history, and if it is no longer paid, it collapses. This effectively causing a reversion to either non-sapient or uncivilized life, with deities able to pay one-time costs to either preserve their culture as an entity separate to the creator god (able to be reclaimed, minus any AP previously spent for their specific benefit), or eradicate them entirely. Ancillary to this would be concrete rules specifying deviance WITHIN an existing culture, allowing other gods to 'infiltrate' that society, or even steal away small portions for their own use.

Is this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15258379&postcount=209) what you were thinking about?

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 07:36 PM
It's also why my recent proposal has upkeep for organizations

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-29, 07:38 PM
Item the first: Omniscience. Sometimes, people want to keep secrets. Meta-game knowledge is often hard to separate from in-character knowledge, so I've seen powers and infusions and the like introduced to dictate the application of this. What I need is a way to remove this clunky, blatant set of interactions. I was thinking a modified sort of Divine Combat- with die for Obfuscation/Revelation or something- representing the penetrating gaze of one deity being turned upon the shrouded makings of another.


From my domain abilities post on page 18.


Domain Awareness: Whenever a Deity spends AP on an action that is tied to your domain (must be justified in OOC Thread) you may roll a 1d6. If you roll higher than the target's Divine Rank you successfully identify either where the event occured or who spent the AP. Each subsequent time you take this ability, you gain a +1 bonus to your roll.

Special: Any god may spend 1 or more AP to disguise their actions from any other gods trying to determine their actions. Each AP spent this way increases their effective Divine Rank by 1, and can increase their effective Divine Rank over the maximum for purposes of this roll only.

Normal: Gods must spend 1 AP to search for other gods and to spy on their actions. When spending AP this way, the God is allowed to roll 1d6 but cannot add any bonuses to their roll.

It also helps if you flat out state IN LARGE, BOLDED, CAPITAL LETTERS that gods do not know anything that is going on outside their immediate vicinity without the use of Domain Awareness or IC effort.

ShadowFireLance
2013-05-29, 07:39 PM
More Confrontations, But....
I Violently Oppose the Upkeep system.
I cannot stand something like this.
I'm not going to spend repeated Ap for something, it just seems useless.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 07:48 PM
More Confrontations, But....
I Violently Oppose the Upkeep system.
I cannot stand something like this.
I'm not going to spend repeated Ap for something, it just seems useless.

In the rules that I proposed the way i've intended it to work is thus:

Society --> Nation --> Organization!
You need to pay 1 AP per organization or else they vanish
BUT!
You get 1 Hero per organization and 1 AP per Hero
So now:
Sanctum -->Nexus --> Hero
Now you don't have to worry about maintaining upkeep
AND
we encourage the development and use of 6 different actions!

Emperor Demonking
2013-05-29, 08:39 PM
My immediate feelings were opposed to upkeep, but I do think that in this case with the Heroes etc that it works. It also allows players to have the freedom to choose whether things fall or rise with only a subtle pressure on fall.

Deadlykire
2013-05-29, 08:51 PM
It discourages fledgling gods from creating something they must upkeep though. With so little ap, every point is costly.

I'd say paying to upkeep your intelligent life is not needed...if it is intelligent (and even if it isn't) during your creation you should have imparted natural instincts for survival. If you create a society, let that society flourish or fall under its own doing unless you specifically intend to direct its course. If you want to be hands on with your creations, you'll be sinking AP into it as is. If you don't mind your creations do as they please, forcing you to constantly "baby-sit" them by spending upkeep is a bit steep of a price.

In order to avoid this upkeep you force a sort of "tech-tree" build order. Making someone play with part of your rules/system shouldn't be included. If they want to avoid heros, and focus on "controlling" mass cultures, this should be an option.

Rizban
2013-05-29, 09:26 PM
I've come up with a new take on upkeep that may or may not be viable. Rather than just explain it, which seems to not work very well in this thread, I'll provide the possible rules to show the system and how it would work.

Divine Actions

1AP
Create Life - Creates some form of life, either one sapient race (such as humans, elves, or goblins), no more than three type of non-sapient monsters, or a collection of non-sapient creatures (such as fish, canines, or birds)
Create Society - Organizes an existing sapient race into an organized society, whether that is a tribe, nation, small kingdom, etc.
Create Empire - Expands an existing society into a powerful empire. An empire is much larger than a society and tends to have many citizens and powerful armies at their disposal.


2AP
Guide Populace - Vastly changes the beliefs or culture of your followers, declares war, or sways the followers of another deity away from him.


Upkeep

Each week, a deity must spend a certain amount of AP on his creations to maintain their devotion and increase his influence over them.

Societies
When a deity uses Create Society, he must spend at least 1 AP every week on that society to maintain it. He may use any action he chooses, but he must spend at least 1 AP on an action that affects that society and that society alone. This action could be a Bless, Mold Land, or any other action the deity's player chooses.

Empires
Empires function under the same upkeep rule as societies, except that 2 AP must be spent each week on their upkeep.


Unpaid Upkeep
Empires - If a deity fails to spend 2 AP each week on an empire he controls, his blessing wanes, and the empire collapses. The first week upkeep isn't paid, nothing happens; however, 4 AP must be spent the following week to "make up" for the missed AP. If the AP isn't paid the second week, the empire falls and becomes a normal society again.

Societies - If a deity fails to spend 1 AP each week on a society he controls, his blessing wanes, and the society turns away from their god. The first week upkeep isn't paid, nothing happens; however, 2 AP must be spent the following week to "make up" for the missed AP.

If the AP isn't paid the second week, then another deity may use Guide Populace to take control of part of the society. That deity gains a new society made up of a large group that splinters off from the original society, taking all their knowledge and advancements with them; however, this splinter society must find their own home elsewhere and start anew.

If the full AP isn't paid after the fourth week, another deity may use Guide Populace to take full control of the original society.



1Explanation
This doesn't force you to waste AP on meaningless actions, but it still forces you to pay attention to your creations and continue to develop them. If you don't keep building your mortals and expanding on them, then your lose influence and risk having them "conquered" by another player.

Shmee
2013-05-29, 11:20 PM
The closes thing to Greifers LoC has ever had has been the Outsiders, who ended up being a major driving point of the plot and the greatest roleplaying I have seen in a LoC.

They would stand around causing problems, even to the point where they would get involved with mortal wars, but not in a way that anyone wanted them to. One example was where there was a cold war between the Elves and the Knolls, the Outsiders got involved by setting up a tea party between the two, and killing tons of them while they made their corpses dance 'thriller' for their own amusement.



In our defense, the Outsiders was set up in response to one of those MODs who were on a power trip. And it was quite funny when people were terrified of this Pantheon even OOC-wise due to their unpredictable nature.




Might I suggest a mortal system?

First... is the upkeep for mortals in or out?

Mortal Combat/Importance

Attempting to create a mortal system.
The original creation creates a number of the species according to AP cost.
1AP=1k
2AP=500
3AP+= 250

From here mortals increase in size at a set rate. I'd say they double every 3 weeks.

Population then determines their level of "organization".
{table]Original Creation AP|Population Required|Level
1 AP|2000|Tribe
2 AP|1000| Tribe
3 AP| 500 | Tribe
1 AP | 4000| Society
2 AP | 2000| Society
3 AP | 1000 | Society
1 AP | 12000 | Nation (Requires Capital)
2 AP | 6000 | Nation (Requires Capital)
3 AP | 3000 | Nation (Requires Capital)[/table]



I share Rizban's sentiments on this. This is really the first step in bringing back the "Civ Rules" which was nothing but a disaster. Players were forced to focus on a single civilization in order to compete with others, thus really limiting the world building. Then as I mentioned before, with little AP to go around, players would really take offense if another player tried to mess with their mortals.

Of course the biggest issue was that the "Civ Rules" were meant to keep LoC "realistic" so it had reached the point that Mortals became these incompetent beings who had to be taught how to breath by their gods. I fondly remember that there was an argument because a player wanted to invent ships, but wasn't allowed. The reason? No one created ropes. Yes... it had reached that point of absurdity that few Civilizations ever reached the Bronze age before the game would die. In the end, those who would ignore creating mortals ended and focusing on their gods turned out to have an advantage, over those who poured all their AP into advancing their civilizations.

mystic1110
2013-05-29, 11:26 PM
It discourages fledgling gods from creating something they must upkeep though. With so little ap, every point is costly.

I'd say paying to upkeep your intelligent life is not needed...if it is intelligent (and even if it isn't) during your creation you should have imparted natural instincts for survival. If you create a society, let that society flourish or fall under its own doing unless you specifically intend to direct its course. If you want to be hands on with your creations, you'll be sinking AP into it as is. If you don't mind your creations do as they please, forcing you to constantly "baby-sit" them by spending upkeep is a bit steep of a price.

In order to avoid this upkeep you force a sort of "tech-tree" build order. Making someone play with part of your rules/system shouldn't be included. If they want to avoid heros, and focus on "controlling" mass cultures, this should be an option.

Deadly would Rizban's suggestion on what "upkeep" should mean below be satisfactory? to prevent the force "tech-tree" while keeping the benefits of the "tech-tree" work


I've come up with a new take on upkeep that may or may not be viable. Rather than just explain it, which seems to not work very well in this thread, I'll provide the possible rules to show the system and how it would work.

Divine Actions

1AP
Create Life - Creates some form of life, either one sapient race (such as humans, elves, or goblins), no more than three type of non-sapient monsters, or a collection of non-sapient creatures (such as fish, canines, or birds)
Create Society - Organizes an existing sapient race into an organized society, whether that is a tribe, nation, small kingdom, etc.
Create Empire - Expands an existing society into a powerful empire. An empire is much larger than a society and tends to have many citizens and powerful armies at their disposal.


2AP
Guide Populace - Vastly changes the beliefs or culture of your followers, declares war, or sways the followers of another deity away from him.


Upkeep

Each week, a deity must spend a certain amount of AP on his creations to maintain their devotion and increase his influence over them.

Societies
When a deity uses Create Society, he must spend at least 1 AP every week on that society to maintain it. He may use any action he chooses, but he must spend at least 1 AP on an action that affects that society and that society alone. This action could be a Bless, Mold Land, or any other action the deity's player chooses.

Empires
Empires function under the same upkeep rule as societies, except that 2 AP must be spent each week on their upkeep.


Unpaid Upkeep
Empires - If a deity fails to spend 2 AP each week on an empire he controls, his blessing wanes, and the empire collapses. The first week upkeep isn't paid, nothing happens; however, 4 AP must be spent the following week to "make up" for the missed AP. If the AP isn't paid the second week, the empire falls and becomes a normal society again.

Societies - If a deity fails to spend 1 AP each week on a society he controls, his blessing wanes, and the society turns away from their god. The first week upkeep isn't paid, nothing happens; however, 2 AP must be spent the following week to "make up" for the missed AP.

If the AP isn't paid the second week, then another deity may use Guide Populace to take control of part of the society. That deity gains a new society made up of a large group that splinters off from the original society, taking all their knowledge and advancements with them; however, this splinter society must find their own home elsewhere and start anew.

If the full AP isn't paid after the fourth week, another deity may use Guide Populace to take full control of the original society.



1Explanation
This doesn't force you to waste AP on meaningless actions, but it still forces you to pay attention to your creations and continue to develop them. If you don't keep building your mortals and expanding on them, then your lose influence and risk having them "conquered" by another player.

this looks great actually. Are you proposing we get rid of organizations however?

Rizban
2013-05-29, 11:34 PM
this looks great actually. Are you proposing we get rid of organizations however?I wasn't proposing anything in either direction with organizations. It really depends on what an "organization" means and how it would be incorporated into the game.

Just what is an organization?

Create Organization was introduced in LoCitP as a partner to Create Concept and served a rather limited purpose.
Create Concept (3 AP) created a basic concept and allowed the introduction of up to 2 Base Classes.
Create Organization (2 AP) created a focused organization introducing and based upon 1 Prestige Class.

Yes, it allowed for some new roleplaying possibilities, but it's primary purpose was introducing, explaining, and supporting (via fluff) prestige classes. Each organization was essentially limited to that one PrC, unless additional PrCs were introduced to it using more CO actions or a Teach Populace action (1 AP) to learn a PrC created by another player.

Since this no longer seems to be the case for the Create Organization action, I don't understand what purpose organizations even serve under the current rules, how they function, or how they differ from any of the other society based actions.

Elemental
2013-05-30, 12:55 AM
Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

During Rollover you must reuse the Form Organization action, or your organization dissolves.

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.


1 AP Form Society
2 AP Create Nation
1 AP Form Organization



Umm... Didn't we vote for nation upkeep, not organisation upkeep? I seem to recall that we did.


10. Upkeep system
None (2 vote)
pay upkeep on organization (2.5 votes)
pay upkeep on nation (3.5 Vote)s

Personally, I would prefer it that way. After all, when a civilisation falls, the powerful organisations often live on in one form or another. But what I think doesn't matter. Unless something changed to alter the vote after you tallied it, then it's clear upkeep should be on nations, not organisations.
Did something happen to change that?


Also, can you set a maximum on a Legend's AP? I think it would be best for it to be significantly lower than that of a God.



SOLUTION?

You may fight any amount of time but each time you must choose something different betwen the four choices (so it effectively limits you to three rounds because of mercy and imprisonment and it stops you from using the poor guy as a punching bag)

I am in disagreement with this. It should be impossible to reduce a God's attack or defense permanently. Temporarily maybe, but not permanently. I mean... For example;
Kiloasa stabs out Belsheroth's eyes. For a duration, Belsheroth takes minus one to attack because he cannot rely on sight to aid him. Eventually, he crafts a pair of crystal eyes to replace those he lost. Sorry for using them as an example all the time, but the falling out between them is the major one I remember.
So, I suggest a God's defence and attack are reduced by combat until they take steps to counteract them. Like regrowing lost limbs, making new eyes, learning to see with their mind, etc. Anyway... That's just me thinking out loud.



When you get in a divine combat, and you lose there is a 5% chance your God dies, flat. Even if you intend to show mercy, you might end up killing the God. This stops AP slaves, and makes killing a God a heavy endevour and could create some devistating effects over the course of the story.


Mind you, be warned, it's my husband's birthday party here, and I may have had two or three Long Island Ice Teas....So, feel free to disregard me.

So a natural one on your Staying Alive roll? I think it's brilliant despite your self-confessed mild inebriation.


Oh, and organisations are things like Churches, Knightly Orders, Assassin's Guilds, Sorcerer's Academies and Cults. You know, important groups that aren't countries.
An example is The Cult of the Damned, an organisation of necromancers and alchemists that worked together to bring about the plague of undeath on Lordaeron, whereas the Scourge would be an empire with vast armies of the dead.

NichG
2013-05-30, 01:39 AM
Define "majority". From what I see, it seems fairly evenly split between the two positions with only 2 to 3 staunch supporters on each side.


This was pretty much directed at comments by Elricaltovilla about other player groups as a whole resisting his attempts to play gods of Tyranny and the like rather than a summary of the current voting.


The current situation we have is nothing like that. I've made a couple Evil gods, specifically one of tyranny, and never even got around to rolling RCR because as soon as my god tried to take control of a situation the other players either whined or ignored what my character was doing because they didn't want him taking their special little toys away.

...

The system might theoretically allow these things, but the player base definitely doesn't, no matter how much they seem to indicate otherwise.



*Gets on soapbox*

When I go around advocated more RCR, I'm not doing it to make the game less fun for everyone, I'm actually trying to make it more fun and more fair. War gods have their place. They represent a cosmic force that is just as fundamental as time, space, fire, light, death, and life.

For a long time now, gods of war have suffered the indignity of being playable but completely neutered by the player bases' knee jerk reaction to people being able to destroy their creations, which consists of whining at a MOD until they step in, or going to extraordinary lengths to protect their pet creations.

...

Changes need to be made, both culturally and within the rules themselves to allow for players with destructive gods to play their gods to their fullest potential, just as we have empowered the gods of creation.


If 'the player base' is resisting such things, I think its worth asking 'do they actually want a system that makes it harder to resist?' That was my point - that 'everyone has fun' needs to trump 'I personally can play a particular god concept I like'.

Deadlykire
2013-05-30, 03:31 AM
In our defense, the Outsiders was set up in response to one of those MODs who were on a power trip. And it was quite funny when people were terrified of this Pantheon even OOC-wise due to their unpredictable nature.





I share Rizban's sentiments on this. This is really the first step in bringing back the "Civ Rules" which was nothing but a disaster. Players were forced to focus on a single civilization in order to compete with others, thus really limiting the world building. Then as I mentioned before, with little AP to go around, players would really take offense if another player tried to mess with their mortals.

Of course the biggest issue was that the "Civ Rules" were meant to keep LoC "realistic" so it had reached the point that Mortals became these incompetent beings who had to be taught how to breath by their gods. I fondly remember that there was an argument because a player wanted to invent ships, but wasn't allowed. The reason? No one created ropes. Yes... it had reached that point of absurdity that few Civilizations ever reached the Bronze age before the game would die. In the end, those who would ignore creating mortals ended and focusing on their gods turned out to have an advantage, over those who poured all their AP into advancing their civilizations.

My system doesn't require any AP for upkeep. Those values are just to differentiate the starting cost of the various "races". Basically, more powerful beings are kept in check by large numbers of less powerful beings. 1000k cavemen w/ spears vs. 250 T-rex kind of thing. (Granted I think the t-trex's still win that one).

In fact, unlike Rizban's setup I assume sentient life can figure out how to exist without the constant meddling of gods. But it seems people want to pay to keep up nations... so my idea may not be of use. The whole point of what I was trying to lay-out is that civilizations will expand and reproduce on their own and generally get stronger as time goes. To the point they would then expand. This expansion would create natural conflict gods could interfere with. I treat them like armies in risk, every "turn" you get more armies based on the territory you control. Except here, every "turn" your armies just get proportionally stronger.

Man on Fire
2013-05-30, 07:59 AM
Just what is an organization?

Army of the empire, thieve's guild, freedom fighters.

And I much more preffer mystic's idea of upkeep, yours will honestly horribly limit the game for younger gods I feel, like that previous proposal I had deconstructed.

Also, with Age/Theme system (which by the way is on previous page, and I think it's ready but would use some criticism), I think we have covered getting rid of things that yo uwant to smuch - now after end of every age we get rid of anything no god doesn't want to take care of and even few things that gods want to take care of (1 out of 10 per diety).

Also, one problem I have with upkeep - it makes Mortals look incompetent, that the very moment their god looks the other way, they immiediately start destroying themselves. I don't like it. Maybe we could have change upkeep to something like this:
After creating nation/society/organization God needs to repeat the AP cost for next two turns and then every three turns alter. If he won't do that, organization falls apart

This way god helps his creation stand up but leaves them to their own devices and only occasionally comes to help, once every 300-3000 years.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 08:05 AM
Umm... Didn't we vote for nation upkeep, not organisation upkeep? I seem to recall that we did.
.


:Facepalm:

I'll fix that right away.

----

As for the maiming issue: hows this


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may take up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.
16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row



With Relics costs 2 AP, a maimed god - after the next rolloever may spend 2 AP to become even more powerful than what she once was. Actually in this scenario being maimed is the only way to get more powerful after a certain point :smalltongue:.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 08:13 AM
And proposed Upkeep solution:

Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

When a deity uses Create Nation, he must spend at least 1 AP every week on that nation to maintain it. He may use any action he chooses, but he must spend at least 1 AP on an action that affects that nation and that nation alone. This action could be a Omen, Word, Nexus, Mold Land, or any other action the deity's player chooses.

Organizations survive the fall of the nation - but never as they once were. They either may seek power to become a nation of their own (Think the church through the fall fo the roman empire into the Vatican); shadow rulers (think the masons); or simply forgotten (Think The templars)

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.


1 AP Form Society : Organizes an existing sapient race into an organized society, whether that is a tribe, nation, small kingdom, etc.
2 AP Create Nation : Expands an existing society into a powerful empire. An empire is much larger than a society and tends to have many citizens and powerful armies at their disposal.
1 AP Form Organization


(then I obviously have to limit heros to only 1 per nation instead of 1 per organization)


(ALSO "Guid populace: Vastly changes the beliefs or culture of your followers, declares war, or sways the followers of another deity away from him." can propabably be replicated with a bless/omen/curse

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 08:45 AM
Question: if you have two intermediate and up deities fighting, how do you justify their combat affecting the land? They're barred from interacting with the mortal plane under the current rules.

Also, why do you need to limit heroes to one per nation instead of one per organization? It doesn't make sense that in something as big as the British Empire (for example) there's only one dude the gods think is exceptional.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 08:58 AM
Question: if you have two intermediate and up deities fighting, how do you justify their combat affecting the land? They're barred from interacting with the mortal plane under the current rules..

Where are the god's fighting? Either the Void or another plane. f its the void then nothing happens since there is no land to affect - another plane: mold that all you want :smallwink:



Also, why do you need to limit heroes to one per nation instead of one per organization? It doesn't make sense that in something as big as the British Empire (for example) there's only one dude the gods think is exceptional.

I mean it does make the Hero much more special - but also it was the only way I could think of to limit the AP gain from hero's - otherwise it would get silly quickly.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 10:00 AM
Where are the god's fighting? Either the Void or another plane. f its the void then nothing happens since there is no land to affect - another plane: mold that all you want :smallwink:



I mean it does make the Hero much more special - but also it was the only way I could think of to limit the AP gain from hero's - otherwise it would get silly quickly.

1) then its a waste of a great way to add flavor to the world.

2) why even give extra AP for a hero?

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 10:02 AM
1) then its a waste of a great way to add flavor to the world.?

What . . how? If the god's fight on the world --> flavor. If they fight on another plane --> Flavor. In the void . . . which I don't imagine as space but instead the plane between planes then --> slightly less flavor?



2) why even give extra AP for a hero?

It was a proposal in the beggining that people liked....

Lady Tialait
2013-05-30, 10:19 AM
I kind of like the idea of the mold lands being able to effect any plane of existence, as echos of the divine combat ring throughout the universe.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 10:33 AM
I kind of like the idea of the mold lands being able to effect any plane of existence, as echos of the divine combat ring throughout the universe.

What do you mean?

My idea is that the mold land action would be used on the plane the battle is actually taking place. Just that the void is not a plane.....

actually do you guys want to define the void?

Is it

Above the Earth's atmosphere I.e. space; OR
The plane between planes; space is part of the material world

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 10:38 AM
What . . how? If the god's fight on the world --> flavor. If they fight on another plane --> Flavor. In the void . . . which I don't imagine as space but instead the plane between planes then --> slightly less flavor?



It was a proposal in the beggining that people liked....

1) see lady tialat's suggestion. In my mind a gods physical entity is just a shell for their true power, which extends essentially everywhere. Their consciousness can't encompass that though so a physical form is required for interaction with the world.

2) people also complained a lot at the beginning about AP creep... having your cake and eating it too?

3) I don't think the void can be defined (or maybe I just don't want it to). Its the Nothing from which Something springs. The oblivion counterbalancing existence. The third poetic nonsense coupling I can't think of right now.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 10:47 AM
1) see lady tialat's suggestion. In my mind a gods physical entity is just a shell for their true power, which extends essentially everywhere. Their consciousness can't encompass that though so a physical form is required for interaction with the world..

Ok . . . then what do you propose with your question about 2 above fledging gods fighting? Do they get to affect the material plane?



2) people also complained a lot at the beginning about AP creep... having your cake and eating it too?.

I guess - but I actually think it works great with the upkeep rules.

Maybe i simply change it to:

You may have any amount of heros you like. As long as you have a hero you gain 1 AP per hero, granted that you don't gain more AP than you have nations.



3) I don't think the void can be defined (or maybe I just don't want it to). Its the Nothing from which Something springs. The oblivion counterbalancing existence. The third poetic nonsense coupling I can't think of right now.

Yeah but it would help: I remember in Boundless the Void was Space. In Blankest Slate it is not. Might help players imagine what is happening better.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 10:54 AM
Ok . . . then what do you propose with your question about 2 above fledging gods fighting? Do they get to affect the material plane?



I guess - but I actually think it works great with the upkeep rules.

Maybe i simply change it to:

You may have any amount of heros you like. As long as you have a hero you gain 1 AP per hero, granted that you don't gain more AP than you have nations.



Yeah but it would help: I remember in Boundless the Void was Space. In Blankest Slate it is not. Might help players imagine what is happening better.

1) for the sake of balance, the material plane and any plane belonging to the two gods currently fighting. Maybe when Soapy the god of water drives an icepick into Melty the god of fire's eye a volcano erupts on the mortal plane because the essence of fire escaped from his form and had to be released SOMEWHERE.

2) I like that change but I'm certain that someone will disagree with me.

3) which is exactly why it should remain undefined, let each playgroup decide the importance and impact of the void for themselves.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 11:00 AM
1) for the sake of balance, the material plane and any plane belonging to the two gods currently fighting. Maybe when Soapy the god of water drives an icepick into Melty the god of fire's eye a volcano erupts on the mortal plane because the essence of fire escaped from his form and had to be released SOMEWHERE.

2) I like that change but I'm certain that someone will disagree with me.

3) which is exactly why it should remain undefined, let each playgroup decide the importance and impact of the void for themselves.

1) Fair enough - but I though I made clear that planes don't belong to the gods who made them (only sanctums - which can be whole layers of plane - are truely yours) - so I think you can affect any plane then. I punch the demon god so hard that a piece of heaven breaks from my awesome.
2) I solve issues one at a time :smallsmile:
3) Fair enough

Moonwolf727
2013-05-30, 11:08 AM
Sorry about popping out of nowhere with this but there is something that I'd like to suggest. :smallredface:
This seems rather inconsequential, granted and entirely acknowledge that this barely matters at all, but you should probably add a clause to the rule about the number of shards you can have that says (Minimum one) or something similar.

Just so that fledgling deities with only their first domain can still be in more than one place at once and not be swamped when multiple meetings inevitably get called at the same time. :smallwink:

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 11:13 AM
Sorry about popping out of nowhere with this but there is something that I'd like to suggest. :smallredface:
This seems rather inconsequential, granted and entirely acknowledge that this barely matters at all, but you should probably add a clause to the rule about the number of shards you can have that says (Minimum one) or something similar.

Just so that fledgling deities with only their first domain can still be in more than one place at once and not be swamped when multiple meetings inevitably get called at the same time. :smallwink:

Good point:

How does this sound for shards:

"You may only have 1 Shard per every Infusion you have left/used."

So a minimum of 1 and a max at three.

Shards are just shards of a god, they can engage in battle or be attacked, but they are instantly defeated and the winning god get absolutely no benefit in RCR. The god who's shard is destroyed knows about it's destruction.

Moonwolf727
2013-05-30, 11:19 AM
Good point:

How does this sound for shards:

"You may only have 1 Shard per every Infusion you have left/used."

So a minimum of 1 and a max at three.

Shards are just shards of a god, they can engage in battle or be attacked, but they are instantly defeated and the winning god get absolutely no benefit in RCR. The god who's shard is destroyed knows about it's destruction.

That seems reasonable, especially since I don't see anyone needing to be in more than four places at once ever being a problem that would be likely to arise.
Multiple-personality gods might be an issue but that is rare enough to be handled on a case-by-case basis by the mods of the respective game anyway.

Rizban
2013-05-30, 12:45 PM
Just what is an organizationArmy of the empire, thieve's guild, freedom fighters.And you missed the entire point of that post. :smallannoyed:

Yes, that was quite obvious. I meant within the context of the rules, what purpose does the term "organization" serve, what is its function, how is it mechanically different, and does it need a unique AP action?

Please read the entire rest of that post beyond the one quoted line.

Also, did anyone else see my post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15332308&postcount=559)? I see no other replies to it...


I kind of like the idea of the mold lands being able to effect any plane of existence, as echos of the divine combat ring throughout the universe.
I agree. This was the intention of the free Mold Land in combat when I suggested it, though I generally assumed it to affect the material plane.


3) I don't think the void can be defined (or maybe I just don't want it to). Its the Nothing from which Something springs. The oblivion counterbalancing existence. The third poetic nonsense coupling I can't think of right now.:smallbiggrin:

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 12:51 PM
And you missed the entire point of that post. :smallannoyed:

Yes, that was quite obvious. I meant within the context of the rules, what purpose does the term "organization" serve, what is its function, how is it mechanically different, and does it need a unique AP action?

Please read the entire rest of that post beyond the one quoted line.

:

Sort of. Organization no longer makes prestige classes - because people don't really hombrew any more and havent for a while. But it makes sense to have a seperate action to make a guild rather than the same action for a guild, nation, empire, tribe, etc.

Rizban
2013-05-30, 12:59 PM
Sort of. Organization no longer makes prestige classes - because people don't really hombrew any more and havent for a while. But it makes sense to have a seperate action to make a guild rather than the same action for a guild, nation, empire, tribe, etc.I'm not arguing that it shouldn't have it's own action. I'm just not sure how it should factor into the rest of the rules. As it is, it seems somewhat disparate. For example, you have Create Species, Create Nation, and Create Chef's Association. :smallconfused: As is, it just seems a little odd for something requiring AP.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 01:00 PM
Rizban: I understand. . . but at the same time . . . you must admit that creating a secret society or mercenary group should cost AP, and that that action is different from the create society action.


Current proposal *changes from last proposal in bold.

Character Creation

A Godly Name
ONE Domain from the Available list (choose what that domain gives you; 1) +2 to Attack; 2) +2 to defense; 3) 2d6 extra HP; OR 4) knowing when someone else is using an action tied to that specific domain
An associative portfolio
And a character description: include Alignment and goals here.

You start off with 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense, 10 HP plus whatever you choose with your additional domain.

Other Rules

You gain 2+X AP per rollover, where X is how many domains you have. 5 is the maximum number of domains you may have.

Rank Name| Weekly AP | Infusions| Required Domains
Fledgling Deity | 3 |1 |1
Lesser Deity | 4 |1 |2
Intermediate Deity | 5 | 2 |3
Greater Deity | 6 | 2 |4
Elder Deity| 7 | 3 | 5


Gods above Fledging may not access the material plane

You may only have 1 Shard per every Infusion you have left/used. Shards are just shards of a god, they can engage in battle or be attacked, but they are instantly defeated and the winning god get absolutely no benefit in RCR. The god who's shard is destroyed knows about it's destruction.

you start with 15 AP

RCR


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may take up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle (this may be used on any plane!)
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.
16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row


Pantheons

When you a born into the game - you automatically join a pantheon between your progenitor and yourself, unless your progenitor is already part of a pantheon and in that case you will join that pantheon. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time.

The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader.

Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon. A god is never forced to use AP to fulfill an order.

But being a leader brings it's own responsibilities. The leader of any pantheon must obey these rule:


Pantheon leader cannot openly act against the good of the pantheon. If he does, the strongest member may challenge him for the crown. Strongest is Highest Rank. If more than one player is tied for highest rank it is the one with highest AP. A challenge is not an RCR challenge but a democratic vote between the pantheon members. The challenger and challengee do not get to vote (meaning that an effective change of command can only work in a pantheon with 3 or more members). This also means unpopular pantheon leaders can be displaced. The ousted leader will become a regular member of the pantheon.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members.
Pantheon leader must defend members of his pantheon against attacks of other gods (that he knows of), either by himself or by sending other members of the pantheon.



Create Pantheon: 1 AP
Join a pantheon: 1 AP
Subordinate your pantheon to another pantheon: 1 AP.


Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

When a deity uses Create Nation, he must spend at least 1 AP every week on that nation to maintain it. He may use any action he chooses, but he must spend at least 1 AP on an action that affects that nation and that nation alone. This action could be a Omen, Word, Nexus, Mold Land, or any other action the deity's player chooses.

Organizations survive the fall of the nation - but never as they once were. They either may seek power to become a nation of their own (Think the church through the fall fo the roman empire into the Vatican); shadow rulers (think the masons); or simply forgotten (Think The templars)

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.

1 AP Form Society : Organizes an existing sapient race into an organized society, whether that is a tribe, nation, small kingdom, etc.
2 AP Create Nation : Expands an existing society into a powerful empire. An empire is much larger than a society and tends to have many citizens and powerful armies at their disposal.
1 AP Form Organization



Land Actions

A big part of being a god is changing the landscape around you!


Alter Land 1 AP: Alter land allows a god to change already existing landscapes. It can be used to create mountain ranges, vast forests, lakes, swamps, or any other kind of "land type" you could think of. This includes razing and raising cities! Alter land can also be used to raise small chains of islands from the sea. These islands cannot be very big, but can be large enough to support a small kingdom. Think about the size of Hawaii. Alter land actions can also be used to change the layout of existing land, such changes can be the creation of the largest mountain in the world to the greatest forest.

Create Land 2 AP: allows a god to create land where there is none. It can be used to raise a small continent from the sea, or create large, floating islands in a plane where there is no planet. Land created by Create Land can be up to the size of Russia

Forge Astronomical Object 3AP: Use this action to create a celestial body such as a moon, planet, asteroid, or sun. If your astronomical object has special properties such as an empathic link to yourself, or can move contrary to the rules of gravity and physics – it is a Relic NOT an Astronomical Object

Form Nexus 1AP: You may create a location of mystic and divine energy connected to a preexisting sanctum your god control/owns. A nexus may be a building, a door, a portion of a forest, a specific cave, but must be a specific location – it cannot be “the ocean.” Promoting mortals to higher rank of mortal can only occur in a Nexus.

Weave Sanctum 2 AP: You may create a location of divinity attuned to your god. This location may be anywhere not on the material plane. Your seat of power may be a layer of a plane, or a simple foreboding castle. Gods may only enter another God’s sanctum if they have permission or initiated combat.

Imagine Plane 5AP : Imagine Plane allows a god to create the fabric of their own reality. Planes are entire dimensions apart from the normal world, and can take any form a god can imagine. Hell, Heaven, or Limbo, are examples of planes. When weaving a plane, the creating god must decide on any special features it has, such as accelerated time, or empowered magic. A god may also decide how many layers there are initially. This can vary from one, to thousands, though most planes have less than three. Unlike a sanctum a god gets no special benefit for being within his or her own realm or plane. Your god does not "own" a plane he made - in fact other gods creating and living in a plane you made is encouraged!!


Relics and Artifacts:

Relics are powerful items that would destroy any mortal who is not a Legend, if they tried to use one. Only gods have the force of will to wield a Relic; while the reverse is true for Artifacts: An artifact is a powerful item or tool. They are imbued with power beyond that of most mortal's imagining. Artifacts can do many things, from resurrecting the dead, to causing small earthquakes. Artifacts are the tools of Mighty Heroes. Gods cannot wield artifacts; the sheer force of divine power would crush an artifact within seconds.

Relics when they are made can only do 1 of two things:

Grant a cosmetic bonus for roleplaying effect
OR grant +1 to attack; OR +1 to defense; or +1d6 to HP

You may only create 2 non-cosmetic relics per each domain you have (maximum is thus 10)

Artifacts may only grant cosmetic bonuses


Relics are 2 AP
Artifacts are 2 AP


Infusions

Infusions are the vestiges of your divine spark. You have 1 infusion available when the game starts and you gain 1 more infusion when you gain 3 domains, and a third and final infusion when you gain 5 domains.

With the expenditure of an infusion you may:


5 AP Unfold Divinity: Your powers as a god increase as you flower into a form closer to your true divinity. From now on you will gain 1 extra AP per rollover for each time you used Unfold Divinity.

5 AP Break the Chains: You struggle to break the bars that keep you from the mortal plane. With this action you may ignore the rule forbidding gods above fledging from accessing the mortal world.

5 AP Divine Decree: While Divine Omens can affect a person and a divine word can affect a small nation the divine decree affects Everything Everywhere! The divine decree simply states a new constant of the universe; be that all life is immortal; that souls are real; the gravity does not exist; or even that everything is now yellow. Divine decrees can be countered with a divine word action or a divine omen action: but that action still only affects the usual area. So while divine decree can make everything feel love, a god can make the people of a small nation incapable of love through word, or a single person in capable of love through an omen


Omens and Words.

Omens and Words are the will of the gods made manifest. They can range from a golden age for an empire, or to increase the mortal population. The population that finds themselves under the pleasure of a god will find their crops prosperous and their ways smoothed, as the subtle magic of the god is worked in their favor, The population that finds themselves under the curse of a god will find their crops barren and their land blighted, as the subtle magic of the god works against them.

The important thing to remember is to try to keep Omen and Words subtle – the ocassional overt action of a god is impressive but it gets boring quickly – make blesses and curses much much more than: “everyone is super strong now” – instead go for blesses like “I impart the wisdom of martial training and harsh conditions to my people – over the years they become stronger, more durable – their children fit for survival in my vision of the world”

The difference between Omens and Words is the area of their effects:


Divine Omen 1 AP: From a single person to an average-sized town's worth of people. A section of an army. An exceedingly sparsely populated area.

Divine Word 3 AP: Anywhere from a large city's worth of people. A small army in its entirety. A rural, but settled are to a large nation or kingdom, and all within it, including settlements of any size. Anyone matching a SPECIFIC descriptor (I.e., Arcane Spellcasters, Commoners, those who worship a certain god)

Anything broader than a word would require a Divine Decree and the use of an Infusion.


Blesses and Curses can be countered by other gods, however. Each time it is countered, it becomes harder and harder for the gods to exert their will over each other. An omen only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

Do not treat “curse wars” like this:

1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
3 AP: Recreate super healing plants.
4 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
5 AP: Recreate super healing plants.


Treat them Like this:


1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Super healing plants are struck with a disease like real world plants and large cluster of them die because of lack of genetic diversity, now they only exists but far spread out, rarer and never in large clumps.
3 AP: Super healing plants emit an aura that make them easy to find.
4 AP: Plant poisonous plants around the world that emit the same aura, look the same and kill instantly, so a person looking for these plants will have to journey towards them but will never know if they will die or survive at the end of the journey.
5 AP: Create spirit guides that aren't an actual species but a manifestation of that super healing plant's benevolence, and like the will o' wisps in "Brave" they lead people away from the poisonous plants.


Heroes and Legends

What are myths without heroes? You may create a mortal to work in your gods stead or even against yourself on the material plane.


1 AP Promote Leader: Leaders are more like bureaucrats to a hero’s warrior. They are important and powerful – but they aren’t what epics are written about. They can be spy masters, mob bosses, kings, guild leaders etc. They don’t grant any bonus, but you don’t need a nexus to promote them and you can have as many as you like.
3 AP Raise Hero: You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. You may have any amount of heros you like. As long as you have a hero you gain 1 AP per hero, granted that you don't gain more AP than you have nations . A Hero grants +1 AP at rollover (This AP can be used to pay for a nation’s upkeep – when the nation your hero belongs to falls, your hero loses this 1 AP bonus). The trick is to expend this extra AP in a way to enhance the Hero’s stature – don’t just use the Hero to farm for more AP – try to tell a story with the hero. Make us care.
3 AP Create Legend: You may create a legend out of a hero. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. The only other restriction is that a hero must have existed for at least 2 rollovers to become eligible to becoming raised to a legend – you can also create a legend out of a leader but only provided that the leader has existed for at least 4 rollovers! A legend is basically a demi god. In fact Legends count as fledging gods that may not use a gain domain action. (they have 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP!) They gain 2 AP each rollover. You may only have 1 Legend at any one time. Legends dont have domains so they can't make or recieve non-cosmetic artifacts!


Life

Life is defined here as anything animate that can act of its own, or a god's will. Humans, Golems, and Undead, all fall under this category.


Mundane Life 1 AP: You create non-Sentient Animals (bugs, germs, gerbils) (you may use this action for free any amount of times when you use a create land action or an alter land action.)
Monstrous life 1 AP: non-sentient monsters Giant Spiders, Dire Animals, Purple Worms, or hell, Dinosaurs. You can't use an alter land action/create land action and make monstrous life. So while you can use alter land to make a land full of honey and bees without a mundane life action, you can't make Jurassic park with dinosaurs with just an alter or create land action.
Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life
Create magical life 3 AP: If the sentient life you create has any innate OR APTITUDE for magical abilities simply by existing then use this action instead. (I.E. elves)
Fabled life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Giants, Vampires, Fey, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings.



Create Concept


-Mundane 1AP: Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts.
- Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts.
- Magical 3 AP: Magical Concepts are ways of using power that allow the wielder to accomplish great things. Pyromancy, Necromancy, Abjuration, Healing these are all Magical concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.[
-Legendary 5 AP: Like Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are far from mundane. However, unlike Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are more than ways to use power. They are power itself. Arcane Magic, or Divine Magic, Immortal Souls, Afterlife are examples of Legendary Concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing. ALL MODERN/SCIFI CONCEPTS ARE LEGENDARY.


Gain Domain


4 AP Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 16 AP worth of AP since the last time they used this action.

Shmee
2013-05-30, 01:04 PM
Instead of just limiting the fallout/aftermath of divine combat to just a mold land action, why not just give 1AP to the victor and allow them to decide what to do with it?

It could still be an alter land action, or it could be a curse/bless, or even create new life. It allows for more liberty and creativity, and that's always a good thing.

Tia and I once had the the two remaining Elder gods battle it out in the Void, a battle between her god of Hunger/Madness and my god of Death. As the two elders fought the aftermath was that the entire world was shaken to its very core and every single mortals felt the effects, as the god of Death won the battle, got eaten by the god of Hunger and by dieing, became an Over-Deity. It was good fun and the aftermath of such a cataclysmic battle really kept the players busy for several weeks.

Which brings me to my next question... no Over-Deities? That is like the holy grail that few ever touched. (B.O.B. being the the first one, and the Freiherr being the second as far as I know.) However we had made it that the catch of becoming an Over-Deity is that you basically transcend this reality, effectively retiring the character.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 01:22 PM
Instead of just limiting the fallout/aftermath of divine combat to just a mold land action, why not just give 1AP to the victor and allow them to decide what to do with it?

It could still be an alter land action, or it could be a curse/bless, or even create new life. It allows for more liberty and creativity, and that's always a good thing.

Tia and I once had the the two remaining Elder gods battle it out in the Void, a battle between her god of Hunger/Madness and my god of Death. As the two elders fought the aftermath was that the entire world was shaken to its very core and every single mortals felt the effects, as the god of Death won the battle, got eaten by the god of Hunger and by dieing, became an Over-Deity. It was good fun and the aftermath of such a cataclysmic battle really kept the players busy for several weeks.

Which brings me to my next question... no Over-Deities? That is like the holy grail that few ever touched. (B.O.B. being the the first one, and the Freiherr being the second as far as I know.) However we had made it that the catch of becoming an Over-Deity is that you basically transcend this reality, effectively retiring the character.

I think the Idea was that divine battle always affects the enviornment - but I could change it to mold land OR omen action. (1 AP actions i guess)

And I don't have an opinion on over-deities. . . just that they might be difficult to implement in my last proposal.

Moonwolf727
2013-05-30, 01:29 PM
I think the Idea was that divine battle always affects the enviornment - but I could change it to mold land OR omen action. (1 AP actions i guess)

And I don't have an opinion on over-deities. . . just that they might be difficult to implement in my last proposal.

Do we need rules for every last aspect of gameplay? Becoming an overdeity is incredibly hard to justify and an end-game thing anyway. As Shmee said, it has only happened a few times in the past and additionally games tend to die out before that is possible in the first place.

Just add a disclaimer that it should be discussed and pre-planned extensively with that games mods before being implemented at a dramatically appropriate time.

Shmee
2013-05-30, 01:30 PM
Also, I believe that the 1AP that the victor gets after divine combat should count when it comes to getting Domains (being part of the 16AP you need to spend before you can get your next Domain) that way, it would encourage more divine combat.

As I said, people reaching Over-Deities are rare, but from my experience by the time someone does reach that level, it was always near the end of the game. Still both times that we got an Over-Deity in a game, it was really a huge and cataclysmic event, even when the Over-Deities were not around.

C'nor
2013-05-30, 01:33 PM
Shards are just shards of a god, they can engage in battle or be attacked, but they are instantly defeated and the winning god get absolutely no benefit in RCR. The god who's shard is destroyed knows about it's destruction.

Eh... I don't like that, really. It basically means that an ambush leads to (if you're RPing your deity, which is the whole point of actually doing it this way...) automatic psychological damage. And it means that you can only ever end up in one combat scene at a time, regardless of how it happened.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 01:33 PM
Do we need rules for every last aspects of gameplay? Becoming an overdeity is incredibly hard to justify and an end-game thing anyway. As Shmee said, it has only happened a few times in the past and additionally games tend to die out before that is possible in the first place.

Just add a disclaimer that it should be discussed and pre-planned extensively with that games mods before being implemented at a dramatically appropriate time.

I mean as my proposal suggests gods start with 1 domain and have a maximum of 5. Each Domain takes 20 AP. Gods start with 15 AP and considering evolutions/advancements/heroes/legends will gain around 5 AP a week.

So only 13 or less weeks till someone becomes an Elder Deity.

So it won't be that rare for someone to advance to that level. So if you want something beyond that. . . you need to come up with the mechanics to make it a rare achievment instead of what an elder diety can do when they are bored.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 01:36 PM
Eh... I don't like that, really. It basically means that an ambush leads to (if you're RPing your deity, which is the whole point of actually doing it this way...) automatic psychological damage. And it means that you can only ever end up in one combat scene at a time, regardless of how it happened.

C'NOR welcome ! missed having you around!

As for shard rules: do you have any suggestions?

Shmee: Do I have it in the rules that the 1 AP for winning twice in a row is not counted towards domains?

Moonwolf727
2013-05-30, 01:40 PM
I mean as my proposal suggests gods start with 1 domain and have a maximum of 5. Each Domain takes 20 AP. Gods start with 15 AP and considering evolutions/advancements/heroes/legends will gain around 5 AP a week.

So only 13 or less weeks till someone becomes an Elder Deity.

So it won't be that rare for someone to advance to that level. So if you want something beyond that. . . you need to come up with the mechanics to make it a rare achievment instead of what an elder diety can do when they are bored.

The reason I'm wary of it is because adding mechanics makes it far more obvious and it will end up standing out. Giving it solid mechanics makes it possible, it sets objectives that people have to meet and makes it seem so much easier to attain since they can plot the path they'll take to it from the start. Don't get me wrong, I don't want people to do that, but it is inevitable that someone will try.

Giving it mechanics adds an endgame. LoC is not meant to have an endgame. It's not a thing for elders to do when they are bored, its a thing to do when they want to leave the game and feel like its an acheivement for having stuck around so long. And they would have earned it by that point.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 01:45 PM
Eh... I don't like that, really. It basically means that an ambush leads to (if you're RPing your deity, which is the whole point of actually doing it this way...) automatic psychological damage. And it means that you can only ever end up in one combat scene at a time, regardless of how it happened.

I think what you're saying is a non sequitur C'nor. Just because your got is tuned into the shard doesn't mean its destruction causes psychological damage. A god of magic could use his shards as astral projections or a god that exists as a hive mind could send off worker/soldier entities to serve as its shards. In both of those cases the mind of the gid would be justifiably protected from the damage the shard suffers.

I'm sure I can come up with other role playable ways to not have severe psychological trauma from losing a shard.

Shmee
2013-05-30, 01:45 PM
Unless I'm missing something it says as follows:

"16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row."

I still think that any aftermath AP should count for gaining a domain.


I haven't done the math yet... but only 13 weeks till someone hits Elder status? How long do you plan on having the game last by the way?

The original target was somewhere around 35 weeks, although I'd say the average LoC does last around 10-15 weeks.

C'nor
2013-05-30, 02:23 PM
C'NOR welcome ! missed having you around!

As for shard rules: do you have any suggestions?


Hello, Mystic! It's good to see you again too.

As for Shards... It'll probably come out in my discussion with Elrical.

@Elrical:

How, then, do you explain that marking one of those drones as a shard, and another as merely being under your complete control, mentally, are qualitatively different things, that cannot, when multiple scenes are going, be switched around at will, in the sense that while each drone could start out nebulous as to whether it was a shard or not, once you've defined as many as you have shards as being them, which ones those are won't change?

Also, I'm not seeing the second one. It's a hive-mind. That means that the immortal being experiences part of itself being killed. How is that not going to be traumatic?

Lastly, minor point, but I never specified the trauma would, of necessity be severe; it makes sense to me, but that's not something I made a distinction for.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 02:32 PM
Hello, Mystic! It's good to see you again too.

As for Shards... It'll probably come out in my discussion with Elrical.

@Elrical:

How, then, do you explain that marking one of those drones as a shard, and another as merely being under your complete control, mentally, are qualitatively different things, that cannot, when multiple scenes are going, be switched around at will, in the sense that while each drone could start out nebulous as to whether it was a shard or not, once you've defined as many as you have shards as being them, which ones those are won't change?

Also, I'm not seeing the second one. It's a hive-mind. That means that the immortal being experiences part of itself being killed. How is that not going to be traumatic?

Lastly, minor point, but I never specified the trauma would, of necessity be severe; it makes sense to me, but that's not something I made a distinction for.

Amount of attention paid to that particular drone. As for the hive mind specifically, as long asthe whole survives, the parts are disposable. TThat's the POINT of a hive mind.

Moonwolf727
2013-05-30, 02:39 PM
As for the hive mind specifically, as long as the whole survives, the parts are disposable. That's the POINT of a hive mind.

I believe he was referring more to the fact that the god/dess themselves is linked to that particular being and experiencing all of their senses rather than talking about the hivemind in general. Being immortal and having to experience the concept of death is not the sort of thing that you don't flinch at. You'd get used to it over time and after two or three you'd be really blase about it, sure, but that doesn't mean it can be discounted as nothing at first.

I like the idea of refluffing shards on a per-god basis. It makes it feel more organic rather than like all the gods have had the same idea and the others are copying just to keep up. I especially like the idea of taking over a member of a hivemind, just that it has some odd implications that you are ignoring because its a hivemind.

Tl;dr version.
Please stop dodging the points that C'nor was attempting to make. Just address them rather than only tackling the ones you can handle without making concessions. Losing a little bit of ground isn't world-ending in what is obviously just a healthy discussion, right?

C'nor
2013-05-30, 02:40 PM
Amount of attention paid to that particular drone. As for the hive mind specifically, as long asthe whole survives, the parts are disposable. TThat's the POINT of a hive mind.

I see. Which explains why you can't shift your attention away from that drone and to another... How, exactly?

As for a hive mind, no, not really, given what you've said about it. The way you defined it, it's a gestalt identity, not a single entity with no consciousness actually residing in most of the bodies, and such a thing is not going to be able to lose a piece of itself without doing exactly that.

Edit: What Moon said too. Even with that kind of hive mind, she makes a good point.

Nexaduro
2013-05-30, 03:11 PM
From my domain abilities post on page 18.



It also helps if you flat out state IN LARGE, BOLDED, CAPITAL LETTERS that gods do not know anything that is going on outside their immediate vicinity without the use of Domain Awareness or IC effort.

Too simple, too prone to abuse- or, simple over-application.

I'm trying to make it more subtle, give the situation more back-and-forth.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 03:26 PM
Too simple, too prone to abuse- or, simple over-application.

I'm trying to make it more subtle, give the situation more back-and-forth.

Outside stating that gods only know what is happening in front of them. And that if a player unequivically states something is a secret action i'm not sure how it would work out? Any ideas?

I was thinking something like bribes are totally allowed through PM's? Like I'll give you 4 AP to do something that costs 3 AP? Idk tbh.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-30, 03:30 PM
Unless I'm missing something it says as follows:

"16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row."

I still think that any aftermath AP should count for gaining a domain.


I don't. Divine combat fallout shouldn't be making the victorious God stronger, it should be weakening both of them, and crashing against the fabric of reality. Gods fighting should cause stuff to happen....for an example of this, please read a wonderful comic called 'The Order of the Stick' it's a bit long, but when you get to the part about the Order of the Scribble, you'll understand what I am talking about. :smallwink:


I haven't done the math yet... but only 13 weeks till someone hits Elder status? How long do you plan on having the game last by the way?

The original target was somewhere around 35 weeks, although I'd say the average LoC does last around 10-15 weeks.

...that seems a little short.

There needs to be exits to the game or slow deity growth. If an Elder God is somewhere between 13-15 weeks old and the game is 35 weeks long, then the majority of Deities will be Elders. I don't mind it only taking that long, but there must be risks along the way.

Even the killing of your God wouldn't be that bad. You can come up with a new one and get it up pretty quickly. Pick up your old toys while you are at it. You could be Darth Vader's secret apprentice!

Here is the meat of what I am suggesting:

Firstly, the 5% chance in every Divine Combat the loser dies from the damage. With the mold lands, and the pieces of them ripped of and made into relics...Divine Combat is pretty brutal, both their physical form and their essence is thrown all over the place. But no chance of them dieing?

Secondly, implement Over-Deity it should involve a huge amount of work. Something around 100-200 AP worth of actions, winning a massive divine combat, and the overall consent of the world itself (a vote in the OOC). The Over-Deity should be fundamentally part of the universe, but somehow removed from it. I would suggest allowing them to spend on Divine Decree as much as they wish, however they must use a Break the Chains action to move anywhere other then their Sanctum. If they do not have a Sanctum they are limited to the void.

That is all I have come up with so far. The other option would be to slow the AP progression, so you can't become an Elder quite as fast.

Shmee
2013-05-30, 03:41 PM
So after a divine combat both combatants roll a d100 and if they roll from 1 to 5, then they die? I guess that would make divine combat a much more serious event.

As for victorious gods becoming stronger, I remember reading some Forgotten Realm books, and in cases of divine combat, the victorious god would take a domain from the one they had vanquished. I'd consider that becoming stronger. There used to be such a system in the original LoC, because the Domain list was limited and only up to 3 gods could share one.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 05:56 PM
I believe he was referring more to the fact that the god/dess themselves is linked to that particular being and experiencing all of their senses rather than talking about the hivemind in general. Being immortal and having to experience the concept of death is not the sort of thing that you don't flinch at. You'd get used to it over time and after two or three you'd be really blase about it, sure, but that doesn't mean it can be discounted as nothing at first.

Again, how does your conclusion follow your premise? The god isn't experiencing death at all, their shard is being destroyed. One could also argue that it's no more traumatic than ripping out a hangnail.

Here, I'll break it down this way:

C'Nor's argument is deductive, meaning that if the premises are true, the conclusion must necessarily be true.

Premise 1: Shards are just shards of a god, they can engage in battle or be attacked, but they are instantly defeated and the winning god get absolutely no benefit in RCR. The god who's shard is destroyed knows about it's destruction.

Premise 2: The defeat of a shard feels exactly like the god themselves being defeated.

Premise 3: When a shard is defeated, it is destroyed (reiterated from premise 1 for clarity).

Premise 4: The destruction of a shard feels like the destruction of the god itself to that god.

Premise 5: The feeling of destruction is a necessarily traumatic experience for an indestructible being.
----------------------------------------

Flaw 1: Premise 2 has no founding in the rules. The nature of the connection between a god and their shard(s) are completely unaddressed.

Flaw 2: Premise 4 once again is not addressed in the rules as written. Nothing about what was written outright states that a god experiences the destruction of their shard as a destruction of their self.

Flaw 3: Premise 5. It does not follow that a being with the ability to create destroyable copies of itself would lack the ability to not suffer trauma from the destruction of those destroyable copies. Example: When a person unhinges their jaw, it is incredibly painful, however snakes unhinge their jaw with regularity and evolved the ability to do so as a way to consume food. They suffer no trauma from repeatedly dislocating their jaw.

As the premises of C'nor's argument are false, C'nor's conclusion from those premeses is false. I proved that before with the God of Magic example. If there exists even one scenario in which the conclusion doesn't apply then C'nor is making a fallacious argument.


I like the idea of refluffing shards on a per-god basis. It makes it feel more organic rather than like all the gods have had the same idea and the others are copying just to keep up. I especially like the idea of taking over a member of a hivemind, just that it has some odd implications that you are ignoring because its a hivemind.

I refer you to Mass Effect 2 and the Collectors/Harbinger for where I draw my inspiration for the gestalt entity/hive mind.

Also, Draken since he's played at least two such gods before and never once complained about a shard getting tanked.


Tl;dr version.
Please stop dodging the points that C'nor was attempting to make. Just address them rather than only tackling the ones you can handle without making concessions. Losing a little bit of ground isn't world-ending in what is obviously just a healthy discussion, right?

Sarcasm should be in blue. Supposedly.

You might want to be much more careful how you phrase your tl;drs in the future, since I didn't dodge C'nor's point, I provided suitable counterexamples. Otherwise someone might think you were trying to deliberately provoke me in an otherwise normal discussion.

Deadlykire
2013-05-30, 07:03 PM
I think the shard rules were to reflect that a shard is not a god to be attacked in RCR. Otherwise the same god may be engaged in combat multiple times in multiple locations (decreasing his/her/its chances of surviving encounters). Given we were talking final death of gods (though that seems to have disappeared?) that is a pretty major issue.

I think a possible solution to this might be:
1) Shards are capable of combat.
2) They have a fraction of their god's stats equal to 1/(n +1).
3) If two shards from the same god arrive are present on the same battlefield, they are counted as 1 shard, reducing the #number of shards by 1 (for determining shard power), this effect only applies to the shards at the battlefield.
4) The owning god suffers hp damage relative to the power of the shards involved in combat. ie. If a god has 1 shard he suffers 1/2 the hp damage. This damage is eliminated at the end of the cycle.
5) A god may choose to absorb his own shard in lieu of combat. In this case the shard is unable to be recreated and used for 1 week.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 07:12 PM
I think the shard rules were to reflect that a shard is not a god to be attacked in RCR. Otherwise the same god may be engaged in combat multiple times in multiple locations (decreasing his/her/its chances of surviving encounters). Given we were talking final death of gods (though that seems to have disappeared?) that is a pretty major issue.

I think a possible solution to this might be:
1) Shards are capable of combat.
2) They have a fraction of their god's stats equal to 1/(n +1).
3) If two shards from the same god arrive are present on the same battlefield, they are counted as 1 shard, reducing the #number of shards by 1 (for determining shard power), this effect only applies to the shards at the battlefield.
4) The owning god suffers hp damage relative to the power of the shards involved in combat. ie. If a god has 1 shard he suffers 1/2 the hp damage. This damage is eliminated at the end of the cycle.
5) A god may choose to absorb his own shard in lieu of combat. In this case the shard is unable to be recreated and used for 1 week.

Or we could just keep it simple and say that shards can't be involved in combat and any attempt to do so immediately ends in the shard returning to its owner. Like what mystic already proposed.

Rizban
2013-05-30, 07:16 PM
In the LoCitP rules, Avatars (original name for "shards", I believe) were effectively Divine Rank 1 (usually) and did battle as if they were normal deities with that DR. If the avatar lost battle, the god suffered Divine Injury differently than usual, but combat was handled exactly the same way as it would be for any deity. These rules never got written down, but it's essentially the system we ended up using.

{table=head]Normal Divine Injury|Avatar Divine Injury
Lose 1 Divine Rank|Avatar Destroyed
Lose Portfolio Element|Winner gains copy of Portfolio Element
One Domain becomes Contested|Same
Contested Domain is stolen|None (Domains can't be stolen from avatars)
Steal Artifact and reform it|Same, but avatar must have artifact in its possession
Break Artifact, gain 1 AP|Same, but avatar must have artifact in its possession
Lose 2d6 AP|Lose 1d6 AP
Agreed upon roleplaying penalty|Same
[/table]

Deadlykire
2013-05-30, 07:23 PM
Are those all possible options of combat? As in after combat 1 is selected? If so I like it, but believe an option should be given to a god to avoid avatar combat (way better name for shards I think). This option has a price, in that there must be a time before the avatar can be reformed.

Edit:

Mortal opinions:
They should be allowed to progress on their own at least to a point.

1 AP
Create Life
Create Society
Create Nation

2 AP
Guide Populace - Vastly changes the culture of a nation or society, declares war, sways followers
Create Empire - An empire represent several nations coming together to form a more powerful structure.
3 AP
Guide Empire- Vastly changes the path of an empire, declares war on other empires, sways the followers of an empire from another deity

Upkeep
Societies
No upkeep needed.
Nations
same as current societies
Empires
Same

Unpaid Upkeep
Empires- 1 AP per nation in the empire
Nations- Same as societies

If the AP isn't paid the 2nd week, then another deity may use Guide Populace to take control of part of the nation. That deity gains a society that splinters off from the original nation, taking all their knowledge and advancements. Only nations may be controlled in this manner.

If the full AP isn't paid after the 3rd week, an empire begins to falter and splits back into its individual nations.

If the full AP isn't paid after the fourth week, another deity may use Guide Populace to take full control of the original nation(s). An individual Guide Populace must be used for each nation.

Rizban
2013-05-30, 07:27 PM
That was the full list of possible injuries under the original rules. I think this is like the 3rd or 4th time I've posted them in this thread... These were just the possible injuries that were applied after a battle was concluded.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 07:27 PM
Rizban, while I like that you bring up older editions of the LOC rules to provide comparison, I think they're starting to detract from the project. Things have changed a fair bit from the original LOC rules and every time you bring up the old system someone gets distracted and wants to add/change the current system to include more of the old system in the new one.

If you want to play the old LOC system, there's currently a game going on already that's being run by ShadowFireLance with Rizban and I as honorary MODs.

Right now I think it's important that we focus on the rules as mystic has proposed them.

Rizban
2013-05-30, 07:30 PM
Rizban, while I like that you bring up older editions of the LOC rules to provide comparison, I think they're starting to detract from the project. Things have changed a fair bit from the original LOC rules and every time you bring up the old system someone gets distracted and wants to add/change the current system to include more of the old system in the new one.

If you want to play the old LOC system, there's currently a game going on already that's being run by ShadowFireLance with Rizban and I as honorary MODs.

Right now I think it's important that we focus on the rules as mystic has proposed them.I'm not sure how it's detracting.

The point was to suggest an option of allowing shards/avatars to fight and be treated as the lowest tier of god for the purpose of that combat.

Bringing up the old injuries was meant to serve as a point of comparison for how the results of avatar combat can and should vary from the results of normal deity combat. It wasn't meant to try to include the old rules but to provide a point of comparison for that suggestion.

mystic1110
2013-05-30, 07:31 PM
Doesn't distract at all - quite helpful to look at what once was: we did get the ideas of divine injuries from the old rules.

Anyway a flashback to the 1/20 chance of dying. . . is this that people are getting behind or was this just an idea one or two people had?

Rizban
2013-05-30, 07:34 PM
I don't like the percent chance of dying. That's a bit too rough for my tastes. Depending on how hard it is to gain rank, I think that the "death" option should be a drop in rank. True death only occurs once rank reaches some minimum amount (0? -1?)

Edit: I'm not saying bring back the old numerical rank system. I meant that as a suggestion of how to approach the problem.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-30, 07:37 PM
I'm against a death option for gods as well. The only situation in which I'd support something like that was if the rules allowed a player to have multiple unrelated gods. And I also happen to be opposed to a system that allows that.

Deadlykire
2013-05-30, 07:43 PM
I edited my post above to respond to the mortal system.

As far as god death: I think it should be possible. I believe the 1/20 chance was a random chance that the combat results in the god's death no matter what (even if not the victors intent!). A good compromise would be a drop into a deity category of 1 level lower than the god currently is. If already a fledgling god the deity is killed.

Also, I'd say that players shouldn't be allowed to control more than 1 deity. If you wish to spawn a new deity for your use, then it is assumed your old deity retreats to its' sanctum to rest. You may again control this deity only if you no longer are controlling one.

Rizban
2013-05-30, 07:47 PM
Mortal opinions:
They should be allowed to progress on their own at least to a point.

1 AP
Create Life
Create Society
Create Nation

2 AP
Guide Populace - Vastly changes the culture of a nation or society, declares war, sways followers
Create Empire - An empire represent several nations coming together to form a more powerful structure.
3 AP
Guide Empire- Vastly changes the path of an empire, declares war on other empires, sways the followers of an empire from another deity

Upkeep
Societies
No upkeep needed.
Nations
same as current societies
Empires
Same

Unpaid Upkeep
Empires- 1 AP per nation in the empire
Nations- Same as societies

If the AP isn't paid the 2nd week, then another deity may use Guide Populace to take control of part of the nation. That deity gains a society that splinters off from the original nation, taking all their knowledge and advancements. Only nations may be controlled in this manner.

If the full AP isn't paid after the 3rd week, an empire begins to falter and splits back into its individual nations.

If the full AP isn't paid after the fourth week, another deity may use Guide Populace to take full control of the original nation(s). An individual Guide Populace must be used for each nation.
I think it still needs a little tweaking, but I do think it's a step up from my original idea.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-30, 08:06 PM
The 1 in 20 chance was a number pulled out of my drunken head. However, the thing is, as it only takes about 1/4 of the game to get fully ranked up to Elder I think having ways of leaving the game with style (or unwillingly) could help.

Perhaps every combat you are in has a chance of dropping you down a rank. Unless you are a fledgling, where it has a chance of killing you. This would make Elder take a bit longer.

I also like the idea of a massive event type thing where your God ascends to a greater type of being, the Overdeity idea, however make them powerful, but almost unplayable. So, basically to become an Overdeity is to retire your character.

Deadlykire
2013-05-30, 08:50 PM
I like that the highest rank is basically a retiring of your character. If we continue along this thought: Would all your "stuff" be vulnerable then or what? Especially your mortals and things. I think that the upkeep should be paid on them automatically for over-deities, however they are vulnerable to being taken by another god.

Malachi Lemont
2013-05-30, 09:22 PM
Please let us know when the rules are finished. I will be happy to play any variation of the game if the rules are well-defined. Sorry I dropped out of the game early last time. I was feeling a bit overwhelmed.

Shmee
2013-05-30, 11:43 PM
Avatars in LoCiTP were actually DR5.... trust me on this :smallbiggrin:

It was because Avatars were as strong as the most powerful demi-god that after LoCiTP Avatar's powers were reduced to DR1.

Also, LoCiTP is being brought up constantly, because besides the fact that it was the first LoC in these forums, it was probably one of the most successful ones. Perhaps it didn't reach the intended 35th week due to a MOD getting angry at the players not agreeing with him and abruptly ending the game to start a new one, but in terms of world building, we had created enough that this particular game is one of the rare case were it could have been used for a campaign setting. Something that I have mentioned before, is LoC's true purpose. So yes, we look back especially at LoCiTP to try and find out what made that particular game so special.

That being said, what will be this LoCs length? Will it be the traditional 35 weeks? Or will it be a shorter project?

As for Over-Deities, when my god of Death became one, I had him ascend reality thus making him unreachable, and began new characters which helped continue the game for a few more months. However, in that game, I still had access to my Over-Deity's immense AP pool, which I had used in several cases to help my alts, but also to create random things which would help build a more full world.

So if we do get Over-Deities, will the players still have access to their AP?

Elemental
2013-05-31, 12:58 AM
On the topic of death; I do like the idea of it being possible to be killed or reduced in rank.


And on the length of the game, why does it need have a set length? Should the people playing be allowed to play it as long as they desire?
My suggestion is to have a limit of time before the world saves for setting purposes, but then people can continue playing after that point. That way people who play it for world building and those who play it because they enjoy the game should be satisfied.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-31, 01:40 AM
On the topic of death; I do like the idea of it being possible to be killed or reduced in rank.


And on the length of the game, why does it need have a set length? Should the people playing be allowed to play it as long as they desire?
My suggestion is to have a limit of time before the world saves for setting purposes, but then people can continue playing after that point. That way people who play it for world building and those who play it because they enjoy the game should be satisfied.

How about even better yet?

Every 10 weeks the game 'saves' and is compiled into a list. At that point homebrew for the setting is requested, and a map is made. All this is compiled as a campaign setting. I really enjoy running games in the world created LoCitp. I think this would allow the goal of campaign setting to be put into place, and allow the game to go as long as you want.

Shmee
2013-05-31, 01:57 AM
In the past we have tried several different ways of approaching divine combat. For a while I had suggested the solution being to having Divine Combat be purely free form. It would cost no AP to initiate combat, and it was expected for both players to work out how the fight would play out, the results and the aftermath. Sometimes for an added measure of leaving things to chance, both players would just roll a d20 to see who would win. On one side, it did create some really epic fights (my fights against Planswalker and Rizban come to mind) not only that, but the fights between Solarion and the Skull Knight set up the events for a potential campaign as well.

The negative side of free form combat? Some players just don't play along. As there is no mechanical effect of divine combat, it meant that some players would not take divine combat seriously, nor its implications. I once had my Rat goddess rip the throat of the god of Time and he just ignored the fact that he had lost that fight.


As for setting a length for how long the game will last, I think it is important because it gives the player an idea how long they have and allows for the game to have a better pacing. If the game is only going to last say... 15 weeks, then you know that you have to start building your civilizations at a faster pace than if you have 35 weeks to do so. There have been times were the MODs just suddenly announced the end of the game only after the 12th week... and most civilizations were still at the stone age.

Just so you can understand... I had saved the map of that game (it was right after LoCiTP too) and after 14 weeks before the game ended here was the result of the world:



Welcome to Aeon! >.>

http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu244/anis1313/worldmapjt3copy.png

I'm not joking... this was supposed to be used for a campaign setting.

Man on Fire
2013-05-31, 05:15 AM
I like that the highest rank is basically a retiring of your character. If we continue along this thought: Would all your "stuff" be vulnerable then or what? Especially your mortals and things. I think that the upkeep should be paid on them automatically for over-deities, however they are vulnerable to being taken by another god.

We had that in our game, when any willing overdiety would become Lord of Creation in the last turn of the game, but generally the idea was that when God turns into Lord of Creation he enters the level of game on which he plays with other worlds in the universe and their pantheons and matters of one doesn't concern him anymore.

Also, if god would enter before last turn, player would be allowed to create new, completely unrelated diety and given 10-15 points for the start.

C'nor
2013-05-31, 06:37 AM
...Something that I have mentioned before, is LoC's true purpose.

Mm. I disagree that it's necessarily the primary goal of the game. Certainly, if you don't create a setting good enough to play in, then there's no point, because you're playing in it as part of the game, and I don't want to see it completely divorced from the mortal world having meaning, because while I do enjoy divine politics and such, being able to play the mortals too is also something I go for, but so long as the game itself is enjoyable, I don't really care if it's ever used again, other than on a 'oh, hey, that was a cool world, sure, I'd play in it' level.

There also seems to have been a general shift in viewpoint; despite the fact that several of the LoCs I've been in produced things that could be workable as campaign settings, no-one ever even tried to do anything with them, to the best of my knowledge. Unfortunate, since it would have been interesting to see what was come up with, but I think it does indicate fairly well what I'm talking about.



The negative side of free form combat? Some players just don't play along. As there is no mechanical effect of divine combat, it meant that some players would not take divine combat seriously, nor its implications. I once had my Rat goddess rip the throat of the god of Time and he just ignored the fact that he had lost that fight.


As for setting a length for how long the game will last, I think it is important because it gives the player an idea how long they have and allows for the game to have a better pacing. If the game is only going to last say... 15 weeks, then you know that you have to start building your civilizations at a faster pace than if you have 35 weeks to do so. There have been times were the MODs just suddenly announced the end of the game only after the 12th week... and most civilizations were still at the stone age.


That's not a problem with the rules, that's a problem with the players. If the MODs are good about handing out polite warnings to people that they need to change their behavior, and then - and this is the important part - actually enforce them, to the point of kicking the person from the game if they just will not change, then the problem is solved, because everyone who was causing it has either stopped doing so or is no longer playing.

As for the whole 'defined limit' thing, I purely hate that idea. Assuming that the MODs aren't being arbitrary bastards, which seems to be what this is intended to counter, in which case, you have bigger issues anyway (and, for that matter, it's not like the MODs own the setting/game any more than the other players, so if everyone agrees that it's stupid to end it there, they can just pick new MODs and keep going), then it means that whether or not there's any good reason as far as interest waning, ideas being harder to come by, etc., things will be wrapping up towards the end and no-one will be making new things anymore in the last few weeks because everyone knows they have to get their stuff finished because they're not allowed to continue.

In short, from what I can see, there's no good reason for it. If the game would end on its own, then it would have ended then whether or not there was a hard limit. If the MODs choose to end it early for no good reason - which they really don't have the power to do any longer anyway - people can, if they wish, ignore it, as they could any other MOD decision, by way of getting together as a group and saying 'hey, we agreed to let you guys have power, now we're kicking you out of office because you ****ed up royally'. If it wouldn't be ending at that point otherwise, then having it do so provides no real benefit, and in fact is a disadvantage, both for those who just want to play the game and the creation of a campaign setting.

@Elrical:

And yet, you still continue to ignore the basic question I'm asking to prove that your counterexamples don't actually work. So, to put it bluntly: What is it that makes a shard different from the other drone that you are likewise controlling completely? Or a shard any different than another astral projection?

I understand that you already stated it was a matter of the attention paid to that shard, but as I said, that makes no sense, as if it were as simple as a matter of attention, then there would be no reason whatsoever that you couldn't simply switch around which one was a shard, whereas currently, after you've said that as many of whatever you're using as you can have shards are shards, it's locked into those being the ones that are shards, at least until the scene ends.

Flaw 3: Premise 5. It does not follow that a being with the ability to create destroyable copies of itself would lack the ability to not suffer trauma from the destruction of those destroyable copies. Example: When a person unhinges their jaw, it is incredibly painful, however snakes unhinge their jaw with regularity and evolved the ability to do so as a way to consume food. They suffer no trauma from repeatedly dislocating their jaw.

So you're going to argue that the rules shouldn't be changed because the rules say that shards can be destroyed automatically, and therefore deities would not suffer trauma because they'd have mechanisms in place due to shards being that easy to destroy? Isn't that kinda circular?

Also, just because someone has the capability to do something does not mean that it's something that's not bad for them. As a counter-example, you're perfectly capable of injuring yourself just from the stresses your body is placed under by your own muscles.

And, too, I'd like to point out that I am not arguing an absolute, or more specifically, that I'm not only arguing one. Even if there are examples of deities who could lose shards with no difficulty, the point still stands that there are at least as many concepts that can't, and making there automatically be problems for those concepts is stupid rules design.

(Oh, and it seems a little ironic that the guy who argues mortals ought to be able to kill deities if they try is arguing so hard against pieces of deities having any chance at all to not automatically die.)


Edit:


On the topic of death; I do like the idea of it being possible to be killed or reduced in rank.


And on the length of the game, why does it need have a set length? Should the people playing be allowed to play it as long as they desire?
My suggestion is to have a limit of time before the world saves for setting purposes, but then people can continue playing after that point. That way people who play it for world building and those who play it because they enjoy the game should be satisfied.


How about even better yet?

Every 10 weeks the game 'saves' and is compiled into a list. At that point homebrew for the setting is requested, and a map is made. All this is compiled as a campaign setting. I really enjoy running games in the world created LoCitp. I think this would allow the goal of campaign setting to be put into place, and allow the game to go as long as you want.

I'm going to throw my support behind this position, specifically Lady Tialait's version of it. It seems to fit what I'm looking for quite nicely. :smallsmile:

That said, this idea really needs something like we had in Omnigenesis and/or what Jeriah was doing back in one Rizban was running a ways back, where people are compiling every AP action taken (and listing the official alliances of your deity every time they change would be good too, along with a post every 10 weeks saying how the feel unofficially about the others) as it occurs, or shortly thereafter, so as to not make it a massive undertaking every time the save point comes around.

Rizban
2013-05-31, 06:48 AM
That's not a problem with the rules, that's a problem with the players. If the MODs are good about handing out polite warnings to people that they need to change their behavior, and then - and this is the important part - actually enforce them, to the point of kicking the person from the game if they just will not change, then the problem is solved, because everyone who was causing it has either stopped doing so or is no longer playing.I frankly think that's silly. If your only options are appeal to a Mod or do nothing, then the rules are sorely lacking. Besides, how do you determine when something is and isn't "acceptable" to do? Without some sort of formal list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, it just becomes a pure judgement call and will be disputed every single time by the "guilty" party. If you're going to go to the trouble of writing up behavior rules so that moderators can have more extensive power, why not instead implement a system whereby the players themselves can deal with issues rather than having to sit around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a Mod to do something?

Also, consider this. Do you really want to start giving players the ability to arbitrarily kick other players out of the game just because they feel like it or have some perceived slight? The seems like a great way to inspire paranoia, favoritism, and a hell of a lot of metagaming as every sucks up to the mods or just quits the game to make their own LoC.


As for the whole 'defined limit' thing, I purely hate that idea. Assuming that the MODs aren't being arbitrary bastards, which seems to be what this is intended to counter, in which case, you have bigger issues anyway (and, for that matter, it's not like the MODs own the setting/game any more than the other players, so if everyone agrees that it's stupid to end it there, they can just pick new MODs and keep going), then it means that whether or not there's any good reason as far as interest waning, ideas being harder to come by, etc., things will be wrapping up towards the end and no-one will be making new things anymore in the last few weeks because everyone knows they have to get their stuff finished because they're not allowed to continue.

In short, from what I can see, there's no good reason for it. If the game would end on its own, then it would have ended then whether or not there was a hard limit. If the MODs choose to end it early for no good reason - which they really don't have the power to do any longer anyway - people can, if they wish, ignore it, as they could any other MOD decision, by way of getting together as a group and saying 'hey, we agreed to let you guys have power, now we're kicking you out of office because you ****ed up royally'. If it wouldn't be ending at that point otherwise, then having it do so provides no real benefit, and in fact is a disadvantage, both for those who just want to play the game and the creation of a campaign setting.I see you understand my above point about Mods and their power...


I'm going to throw my support behind this position, specifically Lady Tialait's version of it. It seems to fit what I'm looking for quite nicely. :smallsmile:I'm somewhat against that particular stance myself. If there's going to be setting development and homebrewing, then it needs to be continuously worked on and compiled throughout the game. If you leave it to happen only every X weeks, then it's just not going to happen. The vast majority of people just won't bother to do it.

C'nor
2013-05-31, 07:04 AM
I frankly think that's silly. If your only options are appeal to a Mod or do nothing, then the rules are sorely lacking. Besides, how do you determine when something is and isn't "acceptable" to do? Without some sort of formal list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, it just becomes a pure judgement call and will be disputed every single time by the "guilty" party. If you're going to go to the trouble of writing up behavior rules so that moderators can have more extensive power, why not instead implement a system whereby the players themselves can deal with issues rather than having to sit around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a Mod to do something?

Also, consider this. Do you really want to start giving players the ability to arbitrarily kick other players out of the game just because they feel like it or have some perceived slight? The seems like a great way to inspire paranoia, favoritism, and a hell of a lot of metagaming as every sucks up to the mods or just quits the game to make their own LoC.

The thing I'm saying is that, at some point, you have to say 'seriously, guys, it's just common sense'. Also, a set of simple rules for handling most interactions, like 'No godmodding. You may be gods, but the other players still have rights to their characters. The only case in which you're allowed to outright state what does, definitely, happen to another person's character/creation is if you get permission or spend AP to affect them.

Be reasonable. We're handling things mostly by trusting you to not be idiots about them, so please bear in mind that you probably can't dodge every attack thrown at you, etc.. The same sort of logic that applies to curse wars, wherein just negating everything by undoing it is generally poor play, should be borne in mind.

[Etc.]' would help considerably in such a case.

Also, no, not arbitrarily. I didn't explain myself well there, but the last game I participated in, it took pretty much unanimous* agreement from all of the MODs that, yeah, this just wasn't going to get better to kick someone. We made the decision to do so once, where the player just would not conform to the simple guidelines for posting that were provided, and was causing a fair bit of OOC arguing as well. That was the sort of thing I was thinking of.

It's also the reason that several polite warnings, including what they were doing wrong, and suggestions on how to improve, would need to be issued for that to happen. If everyone can see they've been told what the problem is and how to fix it, and that has to happen, then there's not much room for complaining about it.

There's also, as I said, the option of, if the MODs do start abusing the power to kick people, collectively deMODding them, and moving on. So it seems to me enough checks would be included to make this viable.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean about 'more extensive power' - the MODs, from what I've seen as a player and a MOD, already have the power to throw people out of the game if they're being disruptive OOC, or similar things, which this would fall under the heading of.

As for implementing a system where the players themselves can do this sort of thing... What do you have in mind? I thought the purpose of assigning MODs in general was because there needed to be a group of people who are generally accepted to be reasonably impartial and level-headed to resolve things, because you can only control who you get as players so much before you might as well just make it invite-only.

*The exception being because one of the MODs, the one who made the game, simply was not around often enough to make waiting for him on anything viable - and anyway, he'd previously mentioned something along those lines anyway.

Shmee
2013-05-31, 07:09 AM
Mm. I disagree that it's necessarily the primary goal of the game. Certainly, if you don't create a setting good enough to play in, then there's no point, because you're playing in it as part of the game, and I don't want to see it completely divorced from the mortal world having meaning, because while I do enjoy divine politics and such, being able to play the mortals too is also something I go for, but so long as the game itself is enjoyable, I don't really care if it's ever used again, other than on a 'oh, hey, that was a cool world, sure, I'd play in it' level.

There also seems to have been a general shift in viewpoint; despite the fact that several of the LoCs I've been in produced things that could be workable as campaign settings, no-one ever even tried to do anything with them, to the best of my knowledge. Unfortunate, since it would have been interesting to see what was come up with, but I think it does indicate fairly well what I'm talking about.


A lot depends what direction the game's ADMIN wants to take. If building a playable setting is not the target of LoC, then you more or less have another god rpg on your hands. If that's the target for this game, then fair enough really. I personally would prefer to be in a LoC knowing that one day someone may run a campaign were one of the party members worships my goddess of Healing , or even goes against a Drow Priest of my god of Tyranny, knowing that the time and inspiration I spent in this game will be used elsewhere.


I frankly think that's silly. If your only options are appeal to a Mod or do nothing, then the rules are sorely lacking. Besides, how do you determine when something is and isn't "acceptable" to do? Without some sort of formal list of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, it just becomes a pure judgement call and will be disputed every single time by the "guilty" party. If you're going to go to the trouble of writing up behavior rules so that moderators can have more extensive power, why not instead implement a system whereby the players themselves can deal with issues rather than having to sit around twiddling their thumbs and waiting on a Mod to do something?




Sometimes even appealing to MODs doesn't work. What do you do when you PM a MOD telling him that he is stepping all over your domain and ask for a compromise only for the MOD to tell you "Sit down and shut up, there is nothing you can do about it."? (Trust me... there have been far worse MOD reactions than that.)

Then when I tried to fight back, I had the MOD's little clique tell me that I am being disruptive and got attacked while I had clearly stated that I would be away, thus losing by default. So in response, I killed off my character, created my Orc god, a volatile combat monster, and created the Outsiders to combat the MOD's own clique. Thus, the players brought balance back into the game and made it interesting.

C'nor
2013-05-31, 07:19 AM
A lot depends what direction the game's ADMIN wants to take. If building a playable setting is not the target of LoC, then you more or less have another god rpg on your hands. If that's the target for this game, then fair enough really. I personally would prefer to be in a LoC knowing that one day someone may run a campaign were one of the party members worships my goddess of Healing , or even goes against a Drow Priest of my god of Tyranny, knowing that the time and inspiration I spent in this game will be used elsewhere.

Oh, certainly. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be a goal - I'd love to play a game where I could take on the role of one of Nysv's clerics, for instance. It's just my personal primary goal is to have fun with the game, followed by not messing the experience up for anyone else, and then after that to build a working world, and I think that to some extent, there's been a general shift towards that.


Sometimes even appealing to MODs doesn't work. What do you do when you PM a MOD telling him that he is stepping all over your domain and ask for a compromise only for the MOD to tell you "Sit down and shut up, there is nothing you can do about it."? (Trust me... there have been far worse MOD reactions than that.)

Then when I tried to fight back, I had the MOD's little clique tell me that I am being disruptive and got attacked while I had clearly stated that I would be away, thus losing by default. So in response, I killed off my character, created my Orc god, a volatile combat monster, and created the Outsiders to combat the MOD's own clique. Thus, the players brought balance back into the game and made it interesting.


Hopefully, at that point, the other MODs would be approachable... But yes, sometimes you just get someone who's not suited for the position there, and if they can get enough support, I'm not really sure what you can do about it; the thing is, how do you write rules for that situation without also hampering the ability of MODs who are doing good things to do them? Even writing up formal rules for MOD succession/removal doesn't seem like it would have worked there, because the MOD had managed to get enough popular support to not be thrown out.

But, that's going to be a problem in any game that has to rely on people to enforce the rules. You can get bad GMs or STs, too. And so on.

Rizban
2013-05-31, 07:20 AM
And that brings us right back around to my earlier point: Mods have too much power and responsibility. Most of the LoCs I've seen go to pot did so primarily because of mod shenanigans. Games shouldn't be a fight between the mods and the players (unless of course you set that up in the beginning as the intention of the game, mods essentially becoming DMs who provide opponents).

As I said previously, I believe mod power should be limited solely to approving new characters, helping to explain rules when there is confusion about something, asking for further explanation on questionable/ambiguous actions, and serving as arbitration if asked between players who are having trouble agreeing.
They should not have the power to control, affect, godmod, etc. other players' characters, nor should they be able to give out AP or other free stuff, nor should they have any powers at all within the game itself.
Giving any player these abilities, even if you call that player "Mod", is just asking for abuse in some fashion eventually.

Moonwolf727
2013-05-31, 07:26 AM
Sarcasm should be in blue. Supposedly.

You might want to be much more careful how you phrase your tl;drs in the future, since I didn't dodge C'nor's point, I provided suitable counterexamples. Otherwise someone might think you were trying to deliberately provoke me in an otherwise normal discussion.

Only supposedly.

And yes, you've got me entirely on that one. I should've phrased it more politely, as I usually try to do, rather than making it seem like I was assualting you with words simply because your veiwpoint didn't line up entirely with someone elses, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.
So, my apologies. I shouldn't have said what I did, for some reason it seemed witty at the time, and I'm going to avoid saying such things in the future.



Mods mods rule-discussion mods mods mods

My long and short on this is just that we shouldn't trust mods to do everything, or neccesarily anything in the case of some of the worse ones, that you would assume comes with the title. They should be able to step in and help occasionally but, ideally, we won't need them to.

As for rules. Well there isn't much I can say other than that I really don't want there to be rules for everything that people seen to think we need rules for. As much as I am aware LoC is not freeform, hence why it isn't in the freeform section of the site, it isn't nearly as shackled by the rules as a fully thought out rpg-system. And that is what allows it to shine, in D&D, for example, there are rules for far too many things and a great many things are resolved by rolling dice rather than discussing it with another person and working out the best way to do something that would result in fun for all. In LoC you don't have that problem, dice are used sparingly and there is a lot more ahead planning due to the lack of a DM, you can run entirely on the rule-of-cool if you want and, as long as it is fluffed correctly and you have it acted out convincingly enough, it'll still craft a story or world, hopefully both, that makes those who were involved glad they were a part of it and those who weren't want to join in.

We need rules for a lot of things but lets not tie-down the roleplaying with them.

C'nor
2013-05-31, 07:33 AM
As I said previously, I believe mod power should be limited solely to approving new characters, helping to explain rules when there is confusion about something, asking for further explanation on questionable/ambiguous actions, and serving as arbitration if asked between players who are having trouble agreeing.
They should not have the power to control, affect, godmod, etc. other players' characters, nor should they be able to give out AP or other free stuff, nor should they have any powers at all within the game itself.
Giving any player these abilities, even if you call that player "Mod", is just asking for abuse in some fashion eventually.

...I don't think I've seen any game where they did have the right to godmod, control other's characters (save in the case of absence if the other player handed the character over to them temporarily, which pretty much any player could be picked for) hand out AP (unless in the form of general rules tweaks for game balance reasons, in which case it went to everyone), affect others without using AP (except where agreed on, which is anyone), or had any special powers IC?

The functions I've seen them serving recently are:

1. Provide clarifications of rules which are poorly worded. As a corollary to this, they could also, if a consensus was reached that a certain rule was broken, change it, or if it was a major rule or one that had already at some point been used, propose OOC it be altered.

2. Vet artifacts, relics, and sometimes other actions with the potential for abuse.

3. Approve new characters. Also, ensure that new domains taken by existing deities don't step too horribly on other people's toes.

4. Handle whether or not deities are removed from the game due to player absence, and if so, whether it's temporary or not.

5. Finally, in the case of players who are threatening the stability of the game, after having been informed of this and offered ways to fix it, removing those players from the game.

I take it you're objecting to 5? Very well, then, but in that case, how would you handle it?

mystic1110
2013-05-31, 07:57 AM
Also, I'm not sure what you mean about 'more extensive power' - the MODs, from what I've seen as a player and a MOD, already have the power to throw people out of the game if they're being disruptive OOC, or similar things, which this would fall under the heading of.
.

Am I the weakest willed MOD ever? I think the most comanding thing I have ever done was to ask people to play nice or PM people to spoiler quotes in the IC :smalltongue:





...I don't think I've seen any game where they did have the right to godmod, control other's characters (save in the case of absence if the other player handed the character over to them temporarily, which pretty much any player could be picked for) hand out AP (unless in the form of general rules tweaks for game balance reasons, in which case it went to everyone), affect others without using AP (except where agreed on, which is anyone), or had any special powers IC?

The functions I've seen them serving recently are:

1. Provide clarifications of rules which are poorly worded. As a corollary to this, they could also, if a consensus was reached that a certain rule was broken, change it, or if it was a major rule or one that had already at some point been used, propose OOC it be altered.

2. Vet artifacts, relics, and sometimes other actions with the potential for abuse.

3. Approve new characters. Also, ensure that new domains taken by existing deities don't step too horribly on other people's toes.

4. Handle whether or not deities are removed from the game due to player absence, and if so, whether it's temporary or not.

5. Finally, in the case of players who are threatening the stability of the game, after having been informed of this and offered ways to fix it, removing those players from the game.

I take it you're objecting to 5? Very well, then, but in that case, how would you handle it?

I've done all that. With 5 I usually just send the player a PM saying to politely knock it off. Believe it or not most people try to do good and usually . . . well back off. :smallsmile:. I only had to kick one player out ever (in History of the usurpers) and that was because; every other player asked me to - and frankly cause it had to be done.

Shmee
2013-05-31, 08:02 AM
5. Finally, in the case of players who are threatening the stability of the game, after having been informed of this and offered ways to fix it, removing those players from the game.

I take it you're objecting to 5? Very well, then, but in that case, how would you handle it?

This reminds me of a case a few years back. Someone had created these annoying and uber over powered Vampires... each of them was on demi-god level who had a hive mind, were psychic and could also bend reality upon a whim... oh and they could walk in sunlight (I think they also sparkled)

The player really annoyed everyone, so a bunch of players decided they had enough of this and teamed up to gang up and deal with these annoying Vampires. The result was that we had the Orcs, Giants, Lightning Elementals, Eldritch abominations, Gnomes, Dragons, a tarrasque and a Squiggoth jumping against the Vampires, and as no one bothered to stand up for the Vampires, they got wiped out and literally banished to the moon by the water god.

So yeah, one option is to let the players sort out this type of annoying players.

C'nor
2013-05-31, 08:03 AM
Am I the weakest willed MOD ever? I think the most comanding thing I have ever done was to ask people to play nice or PM people to spoiler quotes in the IC :smalltongue:






I've done all that. With 5 I usually just send the player a PM saying to politely knock it off. Believe it or not most people try to do good and usually . . . well back off. :smallsmile:. I only had to kick one player out ever (in History of the usurpers) and that was because; every other player asked me to - and frankly cause it had to be done.

Not at all. You've done very well as a MOD. :smallsmile:

That's usually all that's required, yes. Actually kicking someone would certainly be reserved for extreme cases. The only time I've had to do it was, likewise, because everyone was having issues with him.

mystic1110
2013-05-31, 08:14 AM
Oh C'nor :smallredface:

Anyway - so it looks like the 1/20 chance of death is not happening: BUT this idea has potential merit: Changes in bold:


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may take up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle (this may be used on any plane!)
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)
5) Make the losing god lose one of his domains. Winners choice - you are stripping the loser of one of her divine authority. The losing god thus drops in divine rank. If the losing God was a fledging - they become a mere legend. They will no longer be capable of ascending or gaing more domains. They are almost mortal now. Unlike legends though - they may still weild relics and they have no maximum AP. You may not choose this option first!

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.
16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row



This makes being a fledging VERY dangerous. But also it allows gods to die (changed the struck out words because i had a great idea! look above fledgings become legends!) , and it makes getting to Elder take much monger since anyone can prevent anyone from ascending. Finally with this we might think about removing "break the chains" since with this a god could "Fall" back to the material plane :smalleek:

As for Shards let me get back to you guys on that :smallsmile:

Rizban
2013-05-31, 08:31 AM
4. Handle whether or not deities are removed from the game due to player absence, and if so, whether it's temporary or not.

5. Finally, in the case of players who are threatening the stability of the game, after having been informed of this and offered ways to fix it, removing those players from the game.

I take it you're objecting to 5? Very well, then, but in that case, how would you handle it?I'm objecting to both of these.

I don't believe any player, mod or not, should have to power to remove anyone from the game due to inactivity. I've explained my position on that at length in the discussion concerning combat.

As to #5, this:
The player really annoyed everyone, so a bunch of players decided they had enough of this and teamed up to gang up and deal with these annoying Vampires. The result was that we had the Orcs, Giants, Lightning Elementals, Eldritch abominations, Gnomes, Dragons, a tarrasque and a Squiggoth jumping against the Vampires, and as no one bothered to stand up for the Vampires, they got wiped out and literally banished to the moon by the water god.

So yeah, one option is to let the players sort out this type of annoying players.
I think that there should be a meaningful combat system with meaningful penalties associated with it both for the fun and utility of combat as well as to provide a way for the player base to police itself without having to rely on a mod to do something.

The fewer things for which you need a mod, the better.

Now, I do not have any problems with kicking a long time problem player, but that should be a power reserved for the game Admin (who should, ideally, be active with facilitating the game), not merely a mod.

C'nor
2013-05-31, 08:31 AM
I like it, Mystic. That said, something about allowing the cost to be waived if both players agree would be good, I think. :smallsmile:

C'nor
2013-05-31, 08:38 AM
Now, I do not have any problems with kicking a long time problem player, but that should be a power reserved for the game Admin (who should, ideally, be active with facilitating the game), not merely a mod.

I would like to point out that, first, there is no longer any such thing as a game 'Admin'; all the high-level stuff is handled by group decisions from the mods, supplemented by spot rulings if an answer is necessary right then.

Second, if you are suggesting that we include a single person over the mods again, I would like to object strongly to that, as placing that kind of power in the hands of one person is far more likely to lead to the kinds of abuses of power that you're complaining about.

Rizban
2013-05-31, 09:12 AM
Since I've never actually commented directly on the new combat system itself beyond taking part in some of the ancillary discussions, I thought I'd take the time to do a more in depth response to it now. However, I'll be rearranging parts of it and replying based on context rather than line by line.


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HPSeems reasonable to me.

2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
...
14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)This at first seemed reasonable, but I don't understand the part about HP from domains not regenerating. You keep the static bonuses forever, but the hit points are temporary? That seems odd, since you could just get a +10 to defense from your 5 domains and basically not worry about hit points, regardless of if they regenerate or not.
On the other hand, a player who takes the extra 5d6 hit points from his domains gets no benefit after engaging in combat a few times. His domain bonuses are effectively gone forever while those of those players are not.
Just something to consider...


3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.Now, it seems that artifact hit points regenerate, as I could find no line denying it. Considering the above, that seems odd... I always thought domains were more important than artifacts.


4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRSTThis should go without saying, but far too many people need this stated explicitly. Probably should be in bold, italics, underlined, and at least size 3 or 4. Not sarcasm, so not blue...

5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
...
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
This may or may not be reasonable. As I've said before, attacking should be possible but somewhat expensive. Based on the apparently limited amount of AP available under these rules, I think these are well priced. Since I'm not intimately familiar with this ruleset, I'm not precisely sure how easy extra weekly AP is to gain. Depending on what the expected average AP gains are, these costs of these actions may or may not need to be increased by 1 point each.

6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HPThis is all pretty straightforward and reasonable. The wording needs to be clarified a bit for the final draft, but sense this makes much of.


12) The Winning player may take up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle (this may be used on any plane!)This needs clarification. By "take," do you mean that I get to steal 1 AP from the other players and immediately use it? I would think not, based on saying "free" AP. It really isn't clear though.


16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row((Moved this section up, because I reference it in comments below))

I'm generally against limiting combat in this particular way. I'm not sure if this is meant as ALL combat, or as combat against just the one target. If it's a single target effect, then that's probably not an issue. If it's an all combat effect, I'm definitely against it. You're already limited to the number of times you can initiate combat based on your AP, so adding an additional arbitrary limit seems just that, arbitrary.


11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
...
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)
5) Make the losing god lose one of his domains. Winners choice - you are stripping the loser of one of her divine authority. The losing god thus drops in divine rank. If the losing God was a fledging - they become a mere legend. They will no longer be capable of ascending or gaing more domains. They are almost mortal now. Unlike legends though - they may still weild relics and they have no maximum AP. You may not choose this option first!
This should really be stated in a separate "outcome" section rather than in the middle of the rules.

Secondly, I somewhat oppose #5. Gaining a domain costs 20 AP. That's a hefty investment. Permanently losing a domain through combat costs your opponent a minimum of 4 AP. Since rank and AP gain are tied so closely to domains, this is a very painful loss.
While I do advocate loss and eventual death, this is simply too much too fast. I would suggest an intermediate step, possibly similar to a "bloodied" condition.

Based on the combat limitations covered above, this would then require either 6 or 8 AP to be spent to strip someone of a domain. 6 AP if there are no limitations on number of combats, 8 AP (from two different gods) if you are limited to two wins against one god each week. I.e, one god attacks twice, hits an injury, then hits for "bloodied." Then a second god attacks twice, hits for an injury, then hits for domain destruction.



15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.Makes sense to end after 3 rounds regardless of outcome; however, I'm not sure exactly what the rest of that means or how the AP is gained/spent. Definitely needs some clarification.


This makes being a fledging VERY dangerous. But also it allows gods to die (changed the struck out words because i had a great idea! look above fledgings become legends!) , and it makes getting to Elder take much monger since anyone can prevent anyone from ascending. Finally with this we might think about removing "break the chains" since with this a god could "Fall" back to the material plane :smalleek:This seems more or less reasonable. I'll need to read up more on heroes and legends before being able to comment intelligently enough on this.

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-31, 10:37 AM
Unfortunately mystic, I'm still strongly opposed to removing break the chains. I've said why before so I don't want to waste time reiterating it but I see no reason why any god should be barred from the material plane, regardless of how powerful they are.

C'nor
2013-05-31, 10:38 AM
Unfortunately mystic, I'm still strongly opposed to removing break the chains. I've said why before so I don't want to waste time reiterating it but I see no reason why any god should be barred from the material plane, regardless of how powerful they are.

That is, for once, something that we're in agreement on... :smallwink:

Elricaltovilla
2013-05-31, 10:46 AM
That is, for once, something that we're in agreement on... :smallwink:

That's good.

I'd have a response to the shard argument but I'm at work now and will be awayfrom my computer all weekend, so i think I'll just say that while I think what you suggested is ONE way to play the shards, its not the ONLY way and while you're certainly welcome to use that in a game, its not how the rule is intended and not how I will play it.

And that's the last I'll say on that.

mystic1110
2013-05-31, 10:47 AM
Elricaltovilla: It's still in - since the flavor is different: In one a God feels so strongly about the mortal realm she breaks the chains keeping her from directly interfering. The other: a god's wings are forcefully torn off and he plumets to the earth below.

Rizban: the following changes based on your comments:


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGED TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may make up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle (this may be used on any plane!)
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Comand: Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprison: Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim: Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)
5) Gloat (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God)
6) Humiliate (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God) - You may only use this action if you already gloated during combat.
7) Strip: Make the losing god lose one of his domains. Winners choice - you are stripping the loser of one of her divine authority. The losing god thus drops in divine rank. If the losing God was a fledging - they become a mere legend. They will no longer be capable of ascending or gaing more domains. They are almost mortal now. Unlike legends though - they may still weild relics and they have no maximum AP. You may only choose this option if you Humilated the losing god during this combat.

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (artifact and domain HP bonuses apply. Remember that the bonus is static, so you don't have to reroll)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival.
16) If it is a draw and both players do not engage in anymore RCR they may each make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.



I took away rule 16).

But then again that leaves the problem of one god attacking another god over and over (if they have enough AP).

Lady Tialait
2013-05-31, 12:58 PM
Could we remove the HP dice rolling and make them static bonuses? I'm not against the HP dice, but it does add some bookkeeping and thread searching on a LoC game. That can be really get annoying.

I would suggest something to the effect of +10 HP for Domains and +5 for Artifacts.

mystic1110
2013-05-31, 01:06 PM
Could we remove the HP dice rolling and make them static bonuses? I'm not against the HP dice, but it does add some bookkeeping and thread searching on a LoC game. That can be really get annoying.

I would suggest something to the effect of +10 HP for Domains and +5 for Artifacts.

Well with dice as they are now would be AVe +7 HP for domains and +3.5 for Artifact. I'm ok with +10/+5 though. Does make it easier.

current RCR then


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +10 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +5 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGED TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may make up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle (this may be used on any plane!)
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Comand: Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprison: Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim: Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)
5) Gloat (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God)
6) Humiliate (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God) - You may only use this action if you already gloated during combat.
7) Strip: Make the losing god lose one of his domains. Winners choice - you are stripping the loser of one of her divine authority. The losing god thus drops in divine rank. If the losing God was a fledging - they become a mere legend. They will no longer be capable of ascending or gaing more domains. They are almost mortal now. Unlike legends though - they may still weild relics and they have no maximum AP. You may only choose this option if you Humilated the losing god during this combat.

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (Relic and domain HP bonuses apply
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival.
16) If it is a draw and both players do not engage in anymore RCR they may each make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.




So here are the current extremes from the get go:

A 1d6+4 (ave 7.5)
D 1d6 (Ave 3.5)
HP 10

A 1d6 (Ave 3.5)
D 1d6+4 (ave 7.5)
HP 10

A 1d6 (Ave 3.5)
D 1d6 (Ave 3.5)
HP 40

Doesn't really seem like anyone could end it in 3 rounds unless they get really lucky.

Deadlykire
2013-05-31, 02:16 PM
I don't like the new combat. At all.... as Rizban stated the cost to steal the domain is too cheap compared to the cost to get a new domain.

I feel you've taken my suggestion and misconstrued it or misunderstood it. Let me try to explain in case this was the case:

Whenever divine combat takes place a 1d5 is rolled upon resolution of the combat by the winning god. A roll of 1 negates any victory choice the winner makes, instead combat spiraled out of control and the losing deity is reduced in level by 1. This results in the loss of a domain. The loser may select which domain they are giving up. Any bonuses from the lost domain are also lost. If this results in the loser having no domains left, their god ceases to exist.

16)
2 free AP actions? Not sure I like it. A draw doesn't have to lead to injury. The gods could be so evenly matched that no injury takes place. Thus the molding of the land as a result is more like "oh, we are both good fighters, lets go play with the world a bit in celebration."

5) & 6)
I feel these are unneeded. Why not just allow the god to RP that during mercy? Heck if played properly mercy might turn into "goad" where the losing god initiates combat.

Point of clarification:
9) Isn't it: 0 hp or 3 rounds, whichever comes first.
12) The winner gets a free 1 AP Create Land action to use immediately at the end of combat to reflect the results of the combat.

Lady Tialait
2013-05-31, 02:25 PM
I don't like the new combat. At all.... as Rizban stated the cost to steal the domain is too cheap compared to the cost to get a new domain.

5) & 6)
I feel these are unneeded. Why not just allow the god to RP that during mercy? Heck if played properly mercy might turn into "goad" where the losing god initiates combat.


I think the point of 5 and 6 is to make stealing Domains away harder.

mystic1110
2013-05-31, 02:28 PM
I don't like the new combat. At all.... as Rizban stated the cost to steal the domain is too cheap compared to the cost to get a new domain.

...

5) & 6)
I feel these are unneeded. Why not just allow the god to RP that during mercy? Heck if played properly mercy might turn into "goad" where the losing god initiates combat.

.

Well you're not stealing a domain - just making the other god lose a domain.

And I had no clue what to call 5 or 6. . . but they basically make 7) cost 4 more AP, and have the condition that you must win 3 times in a row. (and not maim/imprison/comand the other god) So a gamble to think you'll keep winning.

any other names for 5) and 6) are appreciated!!

Deadlykire
2013-05-31, 02:37 PM
I think the point of 5 and 6 is to make stealing Domains away harder.

I guess.

Maybe I am misunderstanding combat then. Is combat 1/week or 3/week, with the victor picking spoils each victory?

If combat is 1/wk and given only 2 consecutive wins are allowed before a reprieve for the loser: 5 options results in 7 weeks before a 2nd domain is lost. 7 options results in 10 weeks.

If it is 3/week with a victor gaining spoils each time:
(5 options) The 2nd domain is lost in the 2nd week.
(7 options) The 2nd domain is lost in the 4th week.

All of this of course assume the victor wins EVERY combat.

Edit: Why not just state that after combat HP is returned to maximum? If we start with 10 hp, and never take buffs it is 10. If we take buffs, it is higher.

mystic1110
2013-05-31, 03:19 PM
I guess.

Maybe I am misunderstanding combat then. Is combat 1/week or 3/week, with the victor picking spoils each victory?

If combat is 1/wk and given only 2 consecutive wins are allowed before a reprieve for the loser: 5 options results in 7 weeks before a 2nd domain is lost. 7 options results in 10 weeks.

If it is 3/week with a victor gaining spoils each time:
(5 options) The 2nd domain is lost in the 2nd week.
(7 options) The 2nd domain is lost in the 4th week.

All of this of course assume the victor wins EVERY combat.

Edit: Why not just state that after combat HP is returned to maximum? If we start with 10 hp, and never take buffs it is 10. If we take buffs, it is higher.

i was hoping to clarify to you that divine combat would not take weeks. Basically a "battle" is until one of us is reduced to 0 HP or we roll 3 times "3 Rounds" and none of us does. Once that happens we can engage in Battle again. Equal level dieties should end up in a draw almost all the time, unless one of them gets lucky. (You are correct with the maximum thing - thats much better worded)

. . .

is anyone good at excel? maybe they can chart off whether or not battles could even end in 3 "rounds"

HP seems very high now that i'm think about it. Might have to change the 10/5 to only 5/3

Deadlykire
2013-05-31, 05:20 PM
So not sure why you asked for excel... but here are some numbers for you:

Current System:
Maximum Attack: 26
Maximum Defense: 26
Maximum HP: 110

Maximum Possible Damage: 25
Maximum Possible Damage in 3 Rounds: 75


Proposed System:
Maximum Attack: 26
Maximum Defense: 26
Maximum HP: 65

Maximum Possible Damage: 25
Maximum Possible Damage in 3 Rounds: 75


Given these numbers, the proposed HP changes prevent the unkillable (unable to lose?) God from the "stack only HP" stance. I've not run the numbers to determine how many times it is still possible (Something like 21x65 total possibilities). Suffice to say it'll be a lot.

C'nor
2013-06-01, 08:12 PM
I'd have a response to the shard argument but I'm at work now and will be awayfrom my computer all weekend, so i think I'll just say that while I think what you suggested is ONE way to play the shards, its not the ONLY way and while you're certainly welcome to use that in a game, its not how the rule is intended and not how I will play it.

I see. So, basically, 'that's not how you're supposed to do it, but if you want to play wrong, you can'? Thank you so very much for making your position clear, finally.

I also note that you're leaving with an assertion that you're right, but not actually even trying for any sort of rebuttal to my last post...

On Relics:

So... The way we're handling this is that the point is to make a world. So we're going to make it so that you can either make a relic with fluff as to why it does what it does, or you can make a relic that actually does something?

Somehow this seems... Unhelpful. I've never seen anyone make relics where fluff took a backseat to the things which actually had effects in the rules. I highly doubt that that will happen now.

On Domains:

So there's a list now. Lovely. Does that mean you can no longer create whatever domains, and thereby concept, you like? Because it certainly seems to, and if so, it goes completely against either point of the game.

Also, the fact that you're restricted to a single domain means that all starting deities are going to end up more shallow/flat than they have in the past.

On Pantheons:

Right. We're going to completely reverse the standard way pantheons have worked in all prior games, eliminate 95 percent of the concepts normally used between that and having to have a defined, clear-cut, goal. We're also going to make it so you automatically start in a pantheon, can be ordered around by the leader, give authority, and therefore more power, only to those who already have the most of it, regardless of how the entire rest of the pantheon feels, and introduce quite a few holes in the rules.

Deadlykire
2013-06-01, 09:03 PM
C'nor You seem to bring in a lot of strife to the rules conversation without making suggestions as to how you'd change things. Constructive critique, I think, is the point here. So given what you don't like, how would you change it?

Also the argument for not changing something because "this isn't the way we used to do it" shouldn't be valid. Call into question the merits of the new system if you don't like it. Explain how it would affect the balance and play of the game.

Relics/Artifacts:

I'd agree these don't seem quite right (although your wording is confusing). You are implying that most people make relics for cosmetic bonuses, not for stat bonuses. I imagine you meant the other way around (where fluff DOES take a back seat to crunch).

I'd suggest the following AP changes as well:
Stat Bonus Relics and Artifacts: 2 AP
Cosmetic Relics: 1 AP

Seems unfair to charge the same for something that "does nothing" as something that has an affect on your overall stats.
Artifacts can't be used by gods, but mortals being able to create earthquakes? Yeah that had better cost.

Domains:
I don't see how constraining the domains to those already established hurts things. Could you provide an example how, within the current domains you cannot create a world/concept that you want?

You aren't restricted to 1 domain. You are restricted to 5 at maximum. I suggested this change as even within core D&D no deity has more than 5 Domains. I'm also not aware of a deity being restricted to acting only within their domain. You just have more power in your own domains.

I suggested the limit on Domains also in attempt to make each of your Domains more important. It also helps bring RCR into balance a lot more (to me) as it limits relic and domain bonuses.

Pantheons:
For the "low" price of 1 AP any god may create a pantheon of their own. If you are being created by another god, originally belonging to their Pantheon makes sense. Your very first act could be severing yourself from that Pantheon in favor of creating your own.

The rules state a Pantheon MUST have a stated goal at creation.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members.

I would agree that sworn fealty to the leader of the Pantheon shouldn't be required. Might I suggest that the leadership style of the Pantheon is also declared on creation?

Societies:
Can we revisit and make a decision on my modified idea of Rizban's example of upkeep? This makes some changes in AP costs and possibilities to be listed under "societies" Maybe also providing the tweaks Rizban suggested (or making suggestion on changes and I can try tweaking more).

Moonwolf727
2013-06-01, 10:29 PM
C'nor You seem to bring in a lot of strife to the rules conversation without making suggestions as to how you'd change things. Constructive critique, I think, is the point here. So given what you don't like, how would you change it?

Also the argument for not changing something because "this isn't the way we used to do it" shouldn't be valid. Call into question the merits of the new system if you don't like it. Explain how it would affect the balance and play of the game.

Relics/Artifacts:

I'd agree these don't seem quite right (although your wording is confusing). You are implying that most people make relics for cosmetic bonuses, not for stat bonuses. I imagine you meant the other way around (where fluff DOES take a back seat to crunch).

I'd suggest the following AP changes as well:
Stat Bonus Relics and Artifacts: 2 AP
Cosmetic Relics: 1 AP

Seems unfair to charge the same for something that "does nothing" as something that has an affect on your overall stats.
Artifacts can't be used by gods, but mortals being able to create earthquakes? Yeah that had better cost.

Domains:
I don't see how constraining the domains to those already established hurts things. Could you provide an example how, within the current domains you cannot create a world/concept that you want?

You aren't restricted to 1 domain. You are restricted to 5 at maximum. I suggested this change as even within core D&D no deity has more than 5 Domains. I'm also not aware of a deity being restricted to acting only within their domain. You just have more power in your own domains.

I suggested the limit on Domains also in attempt to make each of your Domains more important. It also helps bring RCR into balance a lot more (to me) as it limits relic and domain bonuses.

Pantheons:
For the "low" price of 1 AP any god may create a pantheon of their own. If you are being created by another god, originally belonging to their Pantheon makes sense. Your very first act could be severing yourself from that Pantheon in favor of creating your own.

The rules state a Pantheon MUST have a stated goal at creation.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members.

I would agree that sworn fealty to the leader of the Pantheon shouldn't be required. Might I suggest that the leadership style of the Pantheon is also declared on creation?

Societies:
Can we revisit and make a decision on my modified idea of Rizban's example of upkeep? This makes some changes in AP costs and possibilities to be listed under "societies" Maybe also providing the tweaks Rizban suggested (or making suggestion on changes and I can try tweaking more).

In reply to your comment on C'nor and how he phrases things, there does tend to be quite a lot of sarcasm and dislike mixed in so don't worry if he seems intent on raising hell, he isn't actually trying to. Anyway, I'll proceed to translate what he said into the issues that he meant to bring to your attention along with a spattering of my own viewpoint.


Relics/Artifacts:
Relics are flat bonuses now, that is what he wanted to make a point out of, while in the past they could be flavorful ways of adding extra unexpected abilities, pre-approved by mods and/or sensible players, to the game. It was the equivalent of a built in system for making your own homebrew so that you could give your god/dess powers to set them apart from the others rather than by having it so they do do different things you had it so that they were capable of entirely different things. They helped to make it feels less like you were all just playing the same god with a different skin by giving you distinct capabilities.

And I don't mean that they should grant abilities and bonuses. you'd have to choose one or the other, but the ability has to have an actual IC effect to justify the cost. A good example would be The Starcloak: It doesnt add a bonus to anything ever. It does, however, make you immune to detection as long as you don't interact with someone directly. Thats it. No OP stacking bonuses, all it requires is that your fellow players acknowledge that you have that power due to the relic. No fuss, no muss.

Artifacts are simpler. Give mortals a small-to-medium combat bonus for using them so that they are more they just fluff. Done.


Domains:
The core of the issue is that a lot of new players will choose a domain before planning out their gods personalty. While this is only a bad thing some of the time, and not always the work of new players, it does lead to flat gods with little characterization beyond being based off of a singular concept (I call this the war god phenomenon since that is where it occurs most often). Even if you don't want your god to start fully characterized, which you shouldn't since it gets in the way of gradual development, you will often find it hard to grow from a single concept into a full character. Hence why starting with two domains tended to be The norm because a character with some form of duality is easier to develope due to the possibility of internal conflict.

As a side note: LoC isnt based off of d&d. We're trying to avoid people making assumptions like those.


Pantheons:
Stop giving all the administrative power to one individual, they will abuse it at some point and for each person who doesn't there will be two that try to. Just leave pantheons as a vague sort of alliance between deities and let them run them themselves. Chances are that whomever made the pantheon will end up leading it anyway so no need to give them enforced power. If they lead by virtue of being first to make the pantheon and have authority because of rules then it becomes impossible for another player to evict them if they start being an ass because they have the right to do that and say 'if you dont like it you can leave'. If they dont have rules giving them authority then they'll be less tempted to mess around with it and people are then free to request that they stop or lighten up if they do start causing a ruckuss.


Societies:
I don't have much of a stance on this and can't quite display the same vigor in describing this section as with the others so I'll leave you with this.

Fun fact: There is currently no way of having an independent or multi-national organization.

C'nor
2013-06-01, 10:35 PM
I'm arguing that the way every other game has done it is important. We aim to keep the same players, presumably. The way those players have chosen to do things is therefore something to consider when making the rules.

There's a difference between that and arguing blindly from tradition, and it's an important one.

Relics:

Yeah, sorry about that...

That said, you seem to have missed that I did, in fact, propose a change here, albeit obliquely, given your first paragraph. Moon summed it up pretty well, though.

Domains:

Well, it would be nice if I knew what the list was. Bit of an oversight there if you're going to ask people to state their exact issues with it rather than replying to the overall complaint that it restricts creativity, no?

That said, I'm guessing that, for instance, Dance (Battle) or Beauty (Death), both of which are things that could easily fit with a deity of mine that I've successfully used in multiple LoCs, and the latter of which I did at one time take, are not available. Or how about Spaceflight (Clockwork), which could also have been one a past deity would use?

Also, I never said you were limited to 1 Domain for the whole game. I said that having deities start with a single domain, as was the implication of the term 'restricted' from the context of that sentence, will lead to them being flat, at least in comparison to those capable of embodying more than one thing. Nor did I say you had to act within your Domains, but they are at the core of your deity, and thus very major things.

And, this is not intended to be emulating D&D. In fact, at one time, Mystic specifically said that they wanted to get away from that, and I agree there. Arguing from a source that this was never meant to be like is therefore highly questionable, at best.

Pantheons:

Yes. I know they have to have a goal under these rules. I can, in fact, read. That is one of the things I specifically complained about; the vast majority of Pantheons that have formed previously, and therefore the vast majority of Pantheon concepts that players have wished to use, have had nothing resembling a clear-cut goal, nor should they need to.

Societies:

I don't know how long you think turns normally last, but in general, once societies are around, they're a few weeks, at most, without timeskips. With timeskips, perhaps a couple of months, in general. Remember, you're a deity. Create Life is not 'this lifeform slowly evolves' it's 'I whip up this crazy thing in an afternoon and throw a couple thousand into the world to see what happens'. The same applies to most concepts.

Now, you might be arguing that they should be longer... But in that case, who's ever going to play a mortal? And if mortals are unplayable, who's going to care about them, since they're not relatable?

As such, all that upkeep will lead to is either a required AP tax to let anything be done, or cultures collapsing under their own weight in less time than it takes for their inhabitants to reproduce.

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 12:48 AM
I do agree that only starting with one domain does create the flatness that has been mentioned. On thing that helps me to get into the mind of the character is thinking of how his domains complement and oppose eachother. I would rather starting with two domains with all other numbers of domains going up by one too.

On the 'no-original domains' point, how about saying that you can homebrew a new domain, but must also create a spell list and domain power with it as I think that'd keep people from being silly about it.

C'nor
2013-06-02, 01:51 AM
On the 'no-original domains' point, how about saying that you can homebrew a new domain, but must also create a spell list and domain power with it as I think that'd keep people from being silly about it.

That would be workable... Except then it means recruitment is limited to those who have the time and rules knowledge to create at least two homebrew things, maybe more. The other issue is that, even if it does eventually get turned into a setting, there's no guarantee what system someone will choose to use, so it's entirely possible the requirement would be pointless.

Also, if we do go that route, I'd suggest 'or equivalent material'. That way if I were to take the Battle (Dance) domain I mentioned above, I could instead create abilities granted to warriors who follow the deity, and so on.

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 01:58 AM
That would be workable... Except then it means recruitment is limited to those who have the time and rules knowledge to create at least two homebrew things, maybe more.

It wouldn't keep not-those from joining, it would simply force not-those to use the listed domains while the those would be abler to produce their own original domains. The ''or equivalent material'' seems unobjectionable.

C'nor
2013-06-02, 02:05 AM
It wouldn't keep not-those from joining, it would simply force not-those to use the listed domains while the those would be abler to produce their own original domains. The ''or equivalent material'' seems unobjectionable.

Which is where you run into problems. Why should someone be restricted from creating whatever variety of deity they wish solely due to arbitrary limits on time or access to rules, when there's no guarantee whatsoever that even if the game does spawn a campaign set in the world, those rules will ever matter?

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 02:17 AM
Which is where you run into problems. Why should someone be restricted from creating whatever variety of deity they wish solely due to arbitrary limits on time or access to rules, when there's no guarantee whatsoever that even if the game does spawn a campaign set in the world, those rules will ever matter?

The lion share of D&D 3.5 is still available on the internet I believe so nobody playing the game should have limit to access. The point of my suggestion to impose a cost on the creator of an original domain in order to keep creating new domains from being the point of call when seeking to advance; all such costs will be arbitrary. The reason such a cost would be good is that it will help from new domains being created when listed domains will do fine; this will help slow the accumulation of redundancies, or the very specific (e.g. with the costs when one wants to be the god of barter you'll go with Trade (barter) rather than the silliness of Barter (Something e.g. luck)).

C'nor
2013-06-02, 03:30 AM
The lion share of D&D 3.5 is still available on the internet I believe so nobody playing the game should have limit to access. The point of my suggestion to impose a cost on the creator of an original domain in order to keep creating new domains from being the point of call when seeking to advance; all such costs will be arbitrary. The reason such a cost would be good is that it will help from new domains being created when listed domains will do fine; this will help slow the accumulation of redundancies, or the very specific (e.g. with the costs when one wants to be the god of barter you'll go with Trade (barter) rather than the silliness of Barter (Something e.g. luck)).

Time is still a factor. Anything that means someone has to know two systems to play is automatically going to have fewer people interested in it. Anything that requires you to build something in that second system to play in the first when it will have no impact on the game itself will drive away a significant fraction of that subset.

Also, 3.5 has no direct connection to LoC, and the campaigns, if any, that may be built from it will not necessarily utilize rules even vaguely similar to it.

Why, then, tie domains to it? It is not necessary if you are making it in that ruleset, as there is no need to keep the same domains, so long as the personality, etc., doesn't change too much. If you make the campaign in another system, it is, at best, irrelevant.

In addition, I'd argue that the players are already responsible for coming up with a cohesive setting. Surely, then, the person converting it into the rules can handle a little bit of work that would otherwise also get dumped off on those responsible for the fluff in exchange for having an entire setting built for them?

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 03:51 AM
1. Time is of course still a factor. If you do not have enough time that you value less than the time required to create a new domain then you will not create that new domain. What your choice of words keeps you from realizing is that 'time is a factor' is synonymous with 'the perceived value of creating the new domain is a factor'.

2. It doesn't require knowledge of two systems to play, it requires knowledge of two systems to do a very minor, optional, part of rules viz. create a new domain.

3. The point is to keep the game from being filled with 'silly' domains. My method produces a cost that organically goes up with the 'silliness' of the proposed domain. If one wants to be the god of beauty then you can probably do it by 'crtl-f'ing beauty, whilst the goddess of jars will have a more time-consuming process.

C'nor
2013-06-02, 04:03 AM
I note you offer no reason why so-called 'silly' domains are a problem, unless you have an issue with them because of difficulties with the rules. in which case, well, the only reason they have to be viable in 3.5 is because you're saying they do to keep 'silly' domains from filling the game.

Care to elaborate on why this is more than just a personal bias, and therefore is something that weight should be placed on when making the rules of the game?

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 04:26 AM
1. Everything about the system is about 'person bias', or opinions on what's fun whichever term you prefer.

2. I think a player coming into the game as the god of Jars and Ointments will find himself with less things to do AP wise since they only have very few concepts connecting to their domains, and less things to do RP wise because the other gods won't have reason to really touch that god's domain. I think this would make them more likely to drop out than if they were encouraged (by the time cost) to chose the listed wider and more fundamental domains.

3. I think it would reduce the possibility of stepping on toes e.g. you creating your god of Streams (Fish) after I have my God of Water (Streams). People willynilly creating domains could create out of game unpleasantness if one person feels that their character concept has been taken from them by somebody copying it with a new domain.

4. I think a game of small gods or the noblis style is fundamentally incompatible with the goal and function of lords of creation. The goal is for the medium sized number of gods to create the whole world. So, if the closest thing you've got a water god is the god of Streams (Fish) then are you going to have a sealess world or, more likely, have a world where seas are made for out of character reasons. A lot of the listed domains are of the more noblis sort, but at the same time all the fundamentals are on the list.

C'nor
2013-06-02, 04:43 AM
1. To some extent, that's true. However, I prefer to keep things on as objective a footing as possible.

2. I'm pretty sure that falls under the 'common sense' heading. It's a game about somewhat major deities, so unless you're really good explaining why you want it, the mods will just keep asking what you're actually going to do until you change or explain it well enough to get in.

To use an analogy, saying 'A God of Jars and Ointment will have nothing to do' is like saying 'A human will have nothing to do in a game of Exalted'. It's generally true, yes, barring special circumstances, but it's also not necessary because the conceit of the game does not involve that. In five games, I've seen no-one try to make a deity like that, and every one of those games was completely open in terms of domains that could be made.

Also, that said, so what? If they join, then drop, it just means you have a dead god. Plenty of reasons for that. If they really have had the complete lack impact that your're saying, they can even simply be retconned out of existence.

3. False dichotomy. You're assuming that if this is not in place, no other mechanisms will be. That's what the mods are for, and the reason that every game has what domains are taken listed prominently. There are already mechanisms in place that function perfectly well without any of the potential cons this introduce.

4. The goal is, assuming you agree it has to do anything beyond be fun to play in, to produce a playable setting. Depending on the scale of the campaign, it's entirely possible to hold it in one nation.

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 05:26 AM
2. The game dies when there's not enough players. Throwing interested players away by having them get bored based on their god is extremely silly. I'd prefer to avoid the 'the mods can solve it' solution and although my jars and ointment example is clear cut that's not to say that all examples will be clear cut.
3. I'd prefer to avoid the 'the mods can solve it' solution to everything.
4a. Fun is based on being able to accomplish the goal.
4b. How many games of LOC have you played without any seas? I said that it is possible that these semi-necessaries won't be provided, but I think the OOC-motivated actions are much more likely. You're also avoiding the broader point.

C'nor
2013-06-02, 05:54 AM
2: Throwing interested players away by making them write up a spell list is also silly. Nor is there anything preventing a god of Jars and Ointment from branching out and going into more general fields related to Containment and/or Medicine - at least, if they don't have to generate content not necessary to play the game to do so.

Also, you seem to be assuming it's better to potentially restrict the creativity of the players than risk anyone potentially creating something that's too focused or otherwise 'silly'.

In addition, you're making the assumption that if they drop the deity, the player is gone as well, which is not necessarily the case. If they choose not to join at all because they don't wish to have to make the homebrew necessary to play their concept, though, we pretty much have thrown away that player, potentially from multiple games.

3: The primary job of the mods is to look over applications. If you can't trust them to do so, then there's no reason they should have to at all.

4a: Not true. The 'goal' of a game of Charades is to guess what the person is doing, yet if you like the game, you can have a great deal of fun while failing miserably a it. Similarly, many of the freeform RPs on do not necessarily have any clear goal, but the interactions between the characters are themselves enjoyable.
4b: One, which worked just fine. It was also the only one I've played with no actual planets. Despite the lack of both these things, it could work just fine as a setting.

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 06:22 AM
2. You're not forcing them to draw up a spell list, first of all.

'Nor is there anything preventing a god of Jars and Ointment from branching out and going into more general fields related to Containment and/or Medicine'

Such a god is going outside their domains and if he's going to do that, why not just begin with Healing (Ointment) and Craft (Jars)?

I am making the assumption that players that early on drop their deity leave the game. I think that in practice that it what happens so it makes sense to assume that rather than engage in wishful thinking.

3. When a player concept has dodgy externalities or there's overlap then that's clear cut. The mods can and should look at that. The mods can't look at a concept though and judge how good it is if it isn't that clear.

4a. Agree to disagree; this is probably besides the point.
4b. Nobody is saying otherwise. Do you think that a game where all characters lack a motive to create any of the taken for granted things will have a world without any of the taken for granted things or a game with players, by guilt or other motives, having their gods take out of character action to create some of those taken for granted things? I'm not asking if they should, or if they have to, but whether you think they would.

Elemental
2013-06-02, 07:16 AM
Firstly, I now want to play the Goddess of Jars. She seems like a delightfully crazy type.
Anyway... Just getting that out of the way...


Thinking about limiting us to only five domains, I have decided that I'm not really fond of the idea. I've always seen domain acquisition as a method of character growth. Using the example of Belsheroth who started out as the humble God of Eternal Rest and the Soothing Darkness of Night, before growing in power and becoming as close to all powerful as one could get; I found that the choices of domains to acquire allowed me to expand on areas of his character, areas not so easily expanded into if domains were limited.
He started with Death (Repose) and Darkness (Night) as the kindly reaper who would chat with the dead as he escorted them to a paradise of his own creation. But he eventually became so much more than that. Expanding his influence into the areas of music, protection, the night sky and dreams. When he was practically at the zenith of his power, he made some rather bad decisions and was wiser for it, and as such, took Wisdom (Hindsight). And finally, he took the Time (Entropy) domain when he realised he'd have to enforce life and death through more forceful measures. He was slowly going mad at this point.
If I had been limited to five domains I suppose I could have still had the same story, but I feel that it would have been much harder to show the changes made to him by his past acts. I mean... Despite being the mad god of Entropy, he was still that same deity who put such care into shaping the majesty of night and enjoyed singing, things which were a part of him and remained reflected in his domains.

And now I feel really nostalgic... I mean... Seriously nostalgic...
*sighs at happy memories*

Moonwolf727
2013-06-02, 07:36 AM
Firstly, I now want to play the Goddess of Jars. She seems like a delightfully crazy type.
Anyway... Just getting that out of the way...


Thinking about limiting us to only five domains, I have decided that I'm not really fond of the idea. I've always seen domain acquisition as a method of character growth. Using the example of Belsheroth who started out as the humble God of Eternal Rest and the Soothing Darkness of Night, before growing in power and becoming as close to all powerful as one could get; I found that the choices of domains to acquire allowed me to expand on areas of his character, areas not so easily expanded into if domains were limited.
He started with Death (Repose) and Darkness (Night) as the kindly reaper who would chat with the dead as he escorted them to a paradise of his own creation. But he eventually became so much more than that. Expanding his influence into the areas of music, protection, the night sky and dreams. When he was practically at the zenith of his power, he made some rather bad decisions and was wiser for it, and as such, took Wisdom (Hindsight). And finally, he took the Time (Entropy) domain when he realised he'd have to enforce life and death through more forceful measures. He was slowly going mad at this point.
If I had been limited to five domains I suppose I could have still had the same story, but I feel that it would have been much harder to show the changes made to him by his past acts. I mean... Despite being the mad god of Entropy, he was still that same deity who put such care into shaping the majesty of night and enjoyed singing, things which were a part of him and remained reflected in his domains.

And now I feel really nostalgic... I mean... Seriously nostalgic...
*sighs at happy memories*

:SlowClap:
Very well said, I wasn't around for Belsheroth, though I've certainly heard of him before, and now I'm really starting to wish I'd been there to see the tale unfold.

So after that inspirational story, can we all agree that there shouldn't be an upper limit on domains? Perhaps that you can still gain domains after becomng an elder god but it provides no increase in rank? I'd also quickly like to cast in another vote at starting with two domains and increasing the requirement for ranks by one so that it still fits.

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-02, 08:11 AM
:SlowClap:
Very well said, I wasn't around for Belsheroth, though I've certainly heard of him before, and now I'm really starting to wish I'd been there to see the tale unfold.

So after that inspirational story, can we all agree that there shouldn't be an upper limit on domains? Perhaps that you can still gain domains after becomng an elder god but it provides no increase in rank? I'd also quickly like to cast in another vote at starting with two domains and increasing the requirement for ranks by one so that it still fits.

I'd vote for that.

Deadlykire
2013-06-02, 10:51 AM
Domains:
So when you had 14 domains (was a number I believe previously listed as the max) did you appreciate and care about each domain? The goal of limited domains was so that when you took them you cared about each one you took, they were important.

I can understand your point about a character being "flat" without starting with at least 2 domains. I'd say a 1 domain increase at every level is fine.

You've also pointed out that you think the character would still have been able to experience the same growth even with more limited domains. Also remember Domains have an effect on RCR. Unlimited domains thus become the easiest way to gain RCR and create a god power issue.

I guess the question is: What stops a deity from acting outside their domain. If you want your deity to care about music, can you not just have your deity guide it's populaces into caring about music.


Relics:

I believe the "cosmetic" bonus is used to mean "non-rcr" bonus. If this is the case, is there still issues with relics?

Also: Opinions on cost changes? Especially if what I said above turns out to be true.

Societies:
I realize the time scaling, especially once mortals are introduced. The outlined system by Rizban, modified by myself, is to allow mortals to not collapse without a deity's influence. The Nation upkeep was already voted on and approved. This system tries to use that fact, and make it less "society tax" as possible.

The new system also allows/encourages multi-nations through the use of empires.

Deadlykire
2013-06-02, 10:58 AM
Proposed Domain change:
{table]Rank Name|Weekly AP|Infusions|Required Domains
Fledgling Deity|3|1|2
Lesser Deity|4|2|3
Intermediate Deity| 5|2|4
Greater Deity|6|2|5
Elder Deity|7|3|6[/table]

Remember please that in the current rule set domains have additional effects on shards, RCR, RCR relics.

I have another thought for "unrestricted" domains. We've suggested and Over Deity rank. This rank would be limited in actions and said to be a god in retirement. If the god was prohibited from taking part in divine combat, I would see no issue with this maximum rank having unrestricted domains.

Moonwolf727
2013-06-02, 11:03 AM
Proposed Domain change:
{table]Rank Name|Weekly AP|Infusions|Required Domains
Fledgling Deity|3|1|2
Lesser Deity|4|2|3
Intermediate Deity| 5|2|4
Greater Deity|6|3|5
Elder Deity|7|3|6[/table]

Remember please that in the current rule set domains have additional effects on shards, RCR, RCR relics.

I have another thought for "unrestricted" domains. We've suggested and Over Deity rank. This rank would be limited in actions and said to be a god in retirement. If the god was prohibited from taking part in divine combat, I would see no issue with this maximum rank having unrestricted domains.

I have a solution for your problem with unrestricted domains. Make RCR and Shards tied to Divine Rank instead, rank increases with domains steadily and stops rising after a certain point, preventing people from getting too crazy with their power bonuses. Done. Rather than "Choose +X value to Y stat upon gaining a domain" make it "Choose +X bonus to Y stat upon acheiving a higher divine rank" they occur at the same time but it stops people from exploiting the lack of restriction on number of domains while allowing people to gather more beyond a certain limit if they wish to.

Overdeities still shouldn't be a rules thing, in my opinion. Leave them undefined and let the ascension mechanic be "Discuss heavily with everyone in the game beforehand and then do something suitably dramatic/awesome to justify it IC". Overdeities are not meant to be played actively, they are removed from the world as only a higher being than a god can be. Its a way of retiring your character while still being able to play and it opens new avenues for character development. It basically represents transcending the game-mechanics and becoming a being of almost pure roleplay.

Man on Fire
2013-06-02, 01:22 PM
In rules we played for there was a set limit of domains for each rank, I think it was only one more than you need to advance to next rank. Excet you could buy yourself right of gaining additional domain above the limit. It costed 2 AP. It was for gods who wanted to evolve but wouldn't want advance more.


Mystic, how are rules at this point? What is finished? Do we have deadline for this design or will it continue forever without creating any new edition?

mystic1110
2013-06-02, 01:26 PM
Currently with out internet except on my phone. I'll try h to put up a proposal tomorrow addressing most of the recent issues. As for deadline... Let us say fathers day?

Lady Tialait
2013-06-02, 03:20 PM
I have a solution for your problem with unrestricted domains. Make RCR and Shards tied to Divine Rank instead, rank increases with domains steadily and stops rising after a certain point, preventing people from getting too crazy with their power bonuses. Done. Rather than "Choose +X value to Y stat upon gaining a domain" make it "Choose +X bonus to Y stat upon acheiving a higher divine rank" they occur at the same time but it stops people from exploiting the lack of restriction on number of domains while allowing people to gather more beyond a certain limit if they wish to.

So....Ze Domains, they do noting!

I vote for artifacts, relics, and pretty much everything that now brings up divine power to do the same. Nothing but flavor, and remove their AP costs. Can we get back focused on world building?

C'nor
2013-06-02, 04:16 PM
So....Ze Domains, they do noting!


Something we could do is bring back the 1 AP/week (or whatever would be balanced with current cost) reduction in cost on an action related to the domain. Shouldn't be enough to break the game - especially if we go back to the '7 AP/Domain, must be thematically appropriate' thing, which actually makes it harder to get stuff than the current system -, but it does give a nice little bonus for getting one.

@Kire:

When you actually reply to the words I use, and don't ignore parts of my posts, I'll respond to you. Deal? (Not trying to shut down discussion of things simply because the current edition has them that way would be nice too...)

Mynxae
2013-06-02, 09:36 PM
Thought I'd poke my head in here after I saw Ele posting in here when I visited him recently. Any rules that seem broken or anything I can help with?

Also, if anyone starts a new LoC (most likely Mystic, as per usual), I'd like to talk about that too. And/or apply as a Mod with my knowledge. :smalltongue:

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-02, 09:56 PM
Thought I'd poke my head in here after I saw Ele posting in here when I visited him recently. Any rules that seem broken or anything I can help with?

Also, if anyone starts a new LoC (most likely Mystic, as per usual), I'd like to talk about that too. And/or apply as a Mod with my knowledge. :smalltongue:

MYNXAE! Good to see you!

Mynxae
2013-06-02, 09:58 PM
MYNXAE! Good to see you!

Why hello there old friend. Thank you. :smallbiggrin: I would've joined this thread earlier if:

A) I knew it existed
OR
B) I had access regularly to a computer, which I haven't for approximately a month, so I can be on and off.

Elemental
2013-06-02, 10:53 PM
Domains:
So when you had 14 domains (was a number I believe previously listed as the max) did you appreciate and care about each domain? The goal of limited domains was so that when you took them you cared about each one you took, they were important.

I can understand your point about a character being "flat" without starting with at least 2 domains. I'd say a 1 domain increase at every level is fine.

You've also pointed out that you think the character would still have been able to experience the same growth even with more limited domains. Also remember Domains have an effect on RCR. Unlimited domains thus become the easiest way to gain RCR and create a god power issue.

I guess the question is: What stops a deity from acting outside their domain. If you want your deity to care about music, can you not just have your deity guide it's populaces into caring about music.


Well, it was eleven, but that's hardly the point. And yes I did care about each of them. They all marked his growth and stood in remembrance to his greatest creations and deeds.

In that game, Boundless Wonder, Endless Strife, RCR was tied to rank, not domain, so there was no difficulty of him being unassailable due to his acquisition of domains. In fact, he lost the majority of combats he was involved in, I didn't even bother rolling the last one because the majority of the Gods were aligned against his insanity.

I suppose nothing stops a deity acting outside of their domain. However, we played with the rule that you had to justify your domains by the actions used to get them.



Currently with out internet except on my phone. I'll try h to put up a proposal tomorrow addressing most of the recent issues. As for deadline... Let us say fathers day?

But that's in September...

Malachi Lemont
2013-06-02, 10:57 PM
But that's in September...


No, I'm pretty sure Father's Day is Sunday, June 16th. 2 weeks from today. Seems like a reasonable deadline.

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-02, 11:23 PM
But that's in September...

Mystic means American Fathers Day, I believe. Which is in 1-2 weeks I think.

Mynxae
2013-06-02, 11:32 PM
Mystic means American Fathers Day, I believe. Which is in 1-2 weeks I think.

Damn Americans.. :smalltongue:

So then within a few weeks we could have a good set of fine-tuned rules and perhaps start a new LoC to test them out? I keep thinking of playing a God of Shadow, Darkness and other weird stuff. :smallsigh:

Rizban
2013-06-02, 11:35 PM
And wouldn't that make three active LoC games at one time? Four?

ShadowFireLance
2013-06-02, 11:40 PM
And wouldn't that make three active LoC games at one time? Four?

Four I think.

1) Blankest slate
2) Mine
3) The proposed variant by Nex.

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-02, 11:42 PM
Damn Americans.. :smalltongue:

So then within a few weeks we could have a good set of fine-tuned rules and perhaps start a new LoC to test them out? I keep thinking of playing a God of Shadow, Darkness and other weird stuff. :smallsigh:

Idk, Elemental's got me nostalgiaing for Boundless Wonder, Endless Strife right now. I miss being Kiloasa. I guess there really isn't anything quite like your first time :smalltongue:

Rizban
2013-06-02, 11:46 PM
I guess there really isn't anything quite like your first time :smalltongue:That's true... about a lot of things.

Just don't try to bring them back. It just ruins them forever in your mind. I've seen it happen.

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-03, 12:19 AM
That's true... about a lot of things.

Just don't try to bring them back. It just ruins them forever in your mind. I've seen it happen.

Actually I'd just like to find the old threads and the documents I used to have on Kiloasa. But I deleted the docs and thread subscriptions a long time ago.

Grinner
2013-06-03, 12:22 AM
Good Lord! You all are agreeing on things now?!?

What happened? :smalleek:

Mynxae
2013-06-03, 12:27 AM
Idk, Elemental's got me nostalgiaing for Boundless Wonder, Endless Strife right now. I miss being Kiloasa. I guess there really isn't anything quite like your first time :smalltongue:

Would Alyveran or Isyldar count as my first? Alyveran was only around for maybe a month and then I got kinda bored. Then a few months later I made Isyldar and had a tonne of fun with him (which is now why I prefer Chaotic Evil/Neutral over anything else, Good is too difficult for me to pull off :smallbiggrin: ) so...


That's true... about a lot of things.

Just don't try to bring them back. It just ruins them forever in your mind. I've seen it happen.

Wish I could bring 'im back, but sadly, he is far too gone into the Abyss. :smallfrown:


Good Lord! You all are agreeing on things now?!?

What happened? :smalleek:

Shocking, isn't it? :smalltongue:

Elemental
2013-06-03, 01:07 AM
@Elricaltovilla: Here's a link to the first OOC, that should enable you to get to everything else.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242669

Shmee
2013-06-03, 01:35 AM
And wouldn't that make three active LoC games at one time? Four?

4 LoCs at the same time? Ouch...

Just to point out that one of the ongoing issues with LoC which I had mentioned earlier:






Too many LoCs


Yeah... its not just a case of too many LoCs, it is also that there have been just so many of them in GiTP. Not only that... many LoCs seem to have the life span of a fruit fly (Considering the original objective is to reach 35 weeks of gameplay) yet I've seen some of them die out before it even reaches a month old.

When you get players who invest so much time and creativity to make a character, spends hours typing up detailed posts about the world and building it... then only to suddenly find that the game has died... eventually there will be fatigue. I have played at least a dozen LoC, and after each one would die I would think to myself "if this game is going to die... should I be bothering putting so much effort?"

My point is... instead of having several LoCs running at the same time, make one... but make it count!



I would recommend letting the other ones either die out or run their courses. Mind you, I've noticed that LoC is like a Hydra. Cut one head and another two come out. When one LoC dies/finishes you'll have at least one or two people try to make their own game.

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 07:49 AM
MYNXAE! Good to see you!

YAY!
:smallbiggrin:


Damn Americans.. :smalltongue:

So then within a few weeks we could have a good set of fine-tuned rules and perhaps start a new LoC to test them out? I keep thinking of playing a God of Shadow, Darkness and other weird stuff. :smallsigh:

I don't think we're actually going to start a new game under the proposed rules till there are less than 2 LOC's out there. I think that is a safe rule. Only 2-3 LOC's at one time. The only reason I placed a deadline was so that this thread doesn't go on forever.


Good Lord! You all are agreeing on things now?!?

What happened? :smalleek:

First the red wedding (:smallfrown:) now this (:smalleek:) WHAT IS HAPPENING!!!?!?!

=====

Rules proposal may or may not be up today :smalltongue: (probably will be though)

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 09:15 AM
On Relics:

So... The way we're handling this is that the point is to make a world. So we're going to make it so that you can either make a relic with fluff as to why it does what it does, or you can make a relic that actually does something?

Somehow this seems... Unhelpful. I've never seen anyone make relics where fluff took a backseat to the things which actually had effects in the rules. I highly doubt that that will happen now. .

That was the original problem I had. if you have the choice between RCR relic & thematic/cosmetic/fluff relic. People always choose the RCR relic EVEN when it made NO SENSE. That was why the initial implementation of AP reduction relics - in the hope that people would care more about FLUFF.

Problem was no one did, and AP reductions are even more of a problem. The solution then is to simply limit the amount of RCR relics and hope people will make more fluff-only relics.

Another idea is to take away all restrictions on relic/artifact.



On Domains:

So there's a list now. Lovely. Does that mean you can no longer create whatever domains, and thereby concept, you like? Because it certainly seems to, and if so, it goes completely against either point of the game.

Also, the fact that you're restricted to a single domain means that all starting deities are going to end up more shallow/flat than they have in the past.
.

I don't think the extra domain really made charasters more varied and deep. In fact this way I hope people care more about their profiles and actual charater personalities. As for domains - even I usually make it a point of making people choose from an premade D&D list.



On Pantheons:

Right. We're going to completely reverse the standard way pantheons have worked in all prior games, eliminate 95 percent of the concepts normally used between that and having to have a defined, clear-cut, goal. We're also going to make it so you automatically start in a pantheon, can be ordered around by the leader, give authority, and therefore more power, only to those who already have the most of it, regardless of how the entire rest of the pantheon feels, and introduce quite a few holes in the rules.

What are the holes?

And the problem with the way pantheons have "worked" in other game is that they haven't worked! Pantheons are supposed to be like . . . actual pantheons - not an AP farm which is how they have been used. And Clear-cut goals does not have to be

Let's stop God A

but instead stuff like

Justice & Freedom

---

Also the idea that you start in a pantheon was intended to make Family matter more.

Moonwolf727
2013-06-03, 09:43 AM
I don't think the extra domain really made charasters more varied and deep. In fact this way I hope people care more about their profiles and actual charater personalities. As for domains - even I usually make it a point of making people choose from an premade D&D list.

Meh, its not that it actually made people create more vaired and deep characters, its that it makes it more likely if only by a small amount. That and a lot of us like to make deities with future-domains in mind while we craft their personalities and having one domain makes people question why your god of happiness seems uncomfortably deranged, its because you planned to pick up Insanity as a domain as quickly as possible but couldn't because you were limited to one starting domain. I'm not explaining this very well but the short version is that domains can be used to explain why someone has certain character traits and limiting people to one at the beginning discourages more diverse personalities because they only have one domain to explain themselves with and they don't want to have to go through the awkwardness of explaining why Greg, god of tuxedos, seems to also be themed around kitchenware.

Domains create a powerful first impression and having two, as opposed to one, makes people less likely to assume that your god/dess is obsessed with your domain's subject matter.

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 09:52 AM
Meh, its not that it actually made people create more vaired and deep characters, its that it makes it more likely if only by a small amount. That and a lot of us like to make deities with future-domains in mind while we craft their personalities and having one domain makes people question why your god of happiness seems uncomfortably deranged, its because you planned to pick up Insanity as a domain as quickly as possible but couldn't because you were limited to one starting domain. I'm not explaining this very well but the short version is that domains can be used to explain why someone has certain character traits and limiting people to one at the beginning discourages more diverse personalities because they only have one domain to explain themselves with and they don't want to have to go through the awkwardness of explaining why Greg, god of tuxedos, seems to also be themed around kitchenware.

Domains create a powerful first impression and having two, as opposed to one, makes people less likely to assume that your god/dess is obsessed with your domain's subject matter.

I mean I'm perfectly fine changing it to 2 - but I do like it if the maximum is kep at 5-6 instead of the usual 12. Since very rarely did people end up caring about each and every domain.

Moonwolf727
2013-06-03, 10:15 AM
I mean I'm perfectly fine changing it to 2 - but I do like it if the maximum is kep at 5-6 instead of the usual 12. Since very rarely did people end up caring about each and every domain.

Oh. Well thats fine then, sorry for rambling on about it the way I did. :smallredface:

I doubt anyone is going to need, or even want, that many domains anyway. And, as you've just said, they wouldn't care about them if they did.

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 10:24 AM
Oh. Well thats fine then, sorry for rambling on about it the way I did. :smallredface:

I doubt anyone is going to need, or even want, that many domains anyway. And, as you've just said, they wouldn't care about them if they did.

to be fair . . some people do. Elemental for example show'd his character grow, then assume the responsibilities of his dead brothers, and then finally go crazy from the pressure - all through domain actions. problem is very few players do that - and those that can . . . can still do that. . .

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 10:47 AM
Current proposal *changes from last proposal in Underlined or bolded. (This is mostly so i don't have to keep refering to page 20. . . there aren't that many changes - but there are some) (i.e. this is not the promised effort taking into account all the discussions for the last 4 pages)

Character Creation

A Godly Name
TWO Domains (choose what domains gives you; 1) +2 to Attack; 2) +2 to defense; 3) +8 HP; OR 4) knowing when someone else is using an action tied to that specific domain (No List)
An associative portfolio
And a character description: include Alignment and goals here.

You start off with 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense, 10 HP plus whatever you choose with your additional domain.

Other Rules

You gain 1+X AP per rollover, where X is how many domains you have. 5 is the maximum number of domains you may have.

Rank Name| Weekly AP | Infusions| Required Domains
Fledgling Deity | 3 |1 |2
Lesser Deity | 4 |1 |3
Intermediate Deity | 5 | 2 |4
Greater Deity | 6 | 2 |5
Elder Deity| 7 | 3 | 6
Over Deity*| ? | ? | 12!

*YOU MAY CONTINUE GETTING MORE DOMAINS AFTER YOUR 6th BUT THEY PROVIDE NO BONUS NOR DO THEY ALLOW YOU TO MAKE MORE RCR ARTIFACTS. GETTING YOUR 12th DOMAIN IS A HUGE EVENT! DISCUSS IT OOC FIRST

Gods above Fledging may not access the material plane

You may only have 1 Shard per every Infusion you have left/used. Shards are just shards of a god, they can engage in battle or be attacked, The god who's shard is destroyed knows about it's destruction.

you start with 15 AP

RCR


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +8 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +4 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGED TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may make up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle (this may be used on any plane!)
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Comand: Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprison: Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim: Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)
5) WOUND (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God)
6) BLOODY (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God) - You may only use this action if you already WOUNDED during combat.
7) Strip: Make the losing god lose one of his domains. Winners choice - you are stripping the loser of one of her divine authority. The losing god thus drops in divine rank. If the losing God was a fledging - they become a mere legend. They will no longer be capable of ascending or gaing more domains. They are almost mortal now. Unlike legends though - they may still weild relics and they have no maximum AP. You may only choose this option if you BLOODIED the losing god during this combat.

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (Relic and domain HP bonuses apply
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival.
16) If it is a draw and both players do not engage in anymore RCR they may each make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.



Pantheons

When you a born into the game - you automatically join a pantheon between your progenitor and yourself, unless your progenitor is already part of a pantheon and in that case you will join that pantheon. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time.

The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader.

Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon. A god is never forced to use AP to fulfill an order. IF A PANTHEON MEMBER DOES NOT FOLLOW AN ORDER THE LEADER MAY EVICT HIM/HER FROM THE PANTHEON; MAY ENGAGE IN RCR WITHOUT PAYING AP; OR CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING

But being a leader brings it's own responsibilities. The leader of any pantheon must obey these rule:


Pantheon leader cannot openly act against the good of the pantheon. If he does, the strongest member may challenge him for the crown. Strongest is Highest Rank. If more than one player is tied for highest rank it is the one with highest AP. A challenge is not an RCR challenge but a democratic vote between the pantheon members. The challenger and challengee do not get to vote (meaning that an effective change of command can only work in a pantheon with 3 or more members). This also means unpopular pantheon leaders can be displaced. The ousted leader will become a regular member of the pantheon.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members. GOALS ARE ENCOURAGED TO BE VAUGE
Pantheon leader must defend members of his pantheon against attacks of other gods (that he knows of), either by himself or by sending other members of the pantheon.



Create Pantheon: 1 AP
Join a pantheon: 1 AP
Subordinate your pantheon to another pantheon: 1 AP.


Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

When a deity uses Create Nation, he must spend at least 1 AP every week on that nation to maintain it. He may use any action he chooses, but he must spend at least 1 AP on an action that affects that nation and that nation alone. This action could be a Omen, Word, Nexus, Mold Land, or any other action the deity's player chooses. IF A GOD DOES NOT USE 1 AP TO "MAINTAIN" THE NATION - THE NATION WILL FALL NEXT ROLLOVER UNLESS THE GOD USES 3 AP to "MAINTAIN" THE NATION.

THEMATICALLY USING A HEROE'S OR LEGEND'S AP TO MAINTAIN THE NATION CAN BE DISPLAYED AS THE NATION NOT GETTING ANY DIVINE HELP.

Organizations survive the fall of the nation - but never as they once were. They either may seek power to become a nation of their own (Think the church through the fall fo the roman empire into the Vatican); shadow rulers (think the masons); or simply forgotten (Think The templars)

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.

1 AP Form Society : Organizes an existing sapient race into an organized society, whether that is a tribe, nation, small kingdom, etc.
2 AP Create Nation : Expands an existing society into a powerful empire. An empire is much larger than a society and tends to have many citizens and powerful armies at their disposal.
1 AP Form national Organization
2 AP create a multinational or non-national organization.



Land Actions

A big part of being a god is changing the landscape around you!


Alter Land 1 AP: Alter land allows a god to change already existing landscapes. It can be used to create mountain ranges, vast forests, lakes, swamps, or any other kind of "land type" you could think of. This includes razing and raising cities! Alter land can also be used to raise small chains of islands from the sea. These islands cannot be very big, but can be large enough to support a small kingdom. Think about the size of Hawaii. Alter land actions can also be used to change the layout of existing land, such changes can be the creation of the largest mountain in the world to the greatest forest.

Create Land 2 AP: allows a god to create land where there is none. It can be used to raise a small continent from the sea, or create large, floating islands in a plane where there is no planet. Land created by Create Land can be up to the size of Russia

Forge Astronomical Object 3AP: Use this action to create a celestial body such as a moon, planet, asteroid, or sun. If your astronomical object has special properties such as an empathic link to yourself, or can move contrary to the rules of gravity and physics – it is a Relic NOT an Astronomical Object

Form Nexus 1AP: You may create a location of mystic and divine energy connected to a preexisting sanctum your god control/owns. A nexus may be a building, a door, a portion of a forest, a specific cave, but must be a specific location – it cannot be “the ocean.” Promoting mortals to higher rank of mortal can only occur in a Nexus.

Weave Sanctum 2 AP: You may create a location of divinity attuned to your god. This location may be anywhere not on the material plane. Your seat of power may be a layer of a plane, or a simple foreboding castle. Gods may only enter another God’s sanctum if they have permission or initiated combat.

Imagine Plane 5AP : Imagine Plane allows a god to create the fabric of their own reality. Planes are entire dimensions apart from the normal world, and can take any form a god can imagine. Hell, Heaven, or Limbo, are examples of planes. When weaving a plane, the creating god must decide on any special features it has, such as accelerated time, or empowered magic. A god may also decide how many layers there are initially. This can vary from one, to thousands, though most planes have less than three. Unlike a sanctum a god gets no special benefit for being within his or her own realm or plane. Your god does not "own" a plane he made - in fact other gods creating and living in a plane you made is encouraged!!


Relics:

(took out distinction between Relics or Artifacts)

When Relics are made can only do 1 of 3 things:


Grant a cosmetic bonus for roleplaying effect
OR grant +1 to attack; OR +1 to defense; or +4 to HP;
OR grant a thematic BONUS. (DISCUSS ANY THEMATIC BONUSES IN THE OOC FIRST - YOU NEED PUBLIC MOD APPROVAL FOR THIS.)


You may only create 1 non-cosmetic relics per each domain you have (maximum is thus 11 before over diety status). This is creation not just possession - so if you give away an artifact it still counts towards your limit)


Relics are 2 AP


Infusions

Infusions are the vestiges of your divine spark. You have 1 infusion available when the game starts and you gain 1 more infusion when you gain 3 domains, and a third and final infusion when you gain 5 domains.

With the expenditure of an infusion you may:


5 AP Unfold Divinity: Your powers as a god increase as you flower into a form closer to your true divinity. From now on you will gain 1 extra AP per rollover for each time you used Unfold Divinity.

5 AP Break the Chains: You struggle to break the bars that keep you from the mortal plane. With this action you may ignore the rule forbidding gods above fledging from accessing the mortal world.

5 AP Divine Decree: While Divine Omens can affect a person and a divine word can affect a small nation the divine decree affects Everything Everywhere! The divine decree simply states a new constant of the universe; be that all life is immortal; that souls are real; the gravity does not exist; or even that everything is now yellow. Divine decrees can be countered with a divine word action or a divine omen action: but that action still only affects the usual area. So while divine decree can make everything feel love, a god can make the people of a small nation incapable of love through word, or a single person in capable of love through an omen


Omens and Words.

Omens and Words are the will of the gods made manifest. They can range from a golden age for an empire, or to increase the mortal population. The population that finds themselves under the pleasure of a god will find their crops prosperous and their ways smoothed, as the subtle magic of the god is worked in their favor, The population that finds themselves under the curse of a god will find their crops barren and their land blighted, as the subtle magic of the god works against them.

The important thing to remember is to try to keep Omen and Words subtle – the ocassional overt action of a god is impressive but it gets boring quickly – make blesses and curses much much more than: “everyone is super strong now” – instead go for blesses like “I impart the wisdom of martial training and harsh conditions to my people – over the years they become stronger, more durable – their children fit for survival in my vision of the world”

The difference between Omens and Words is the area of their effects:


Divine Omen 1 AP: From a single person to an average-sized town's worth of people. A section of an army. An exceedingly sparsely populated area.

Divine Word 3 AP: Anywhere from a large city's worth of people. A small army in its entirety. A rural, but settled are to a large nation or kingdom, and all within it, including settlements of any size. Anyone matching a SPECIFIC descriptor (I.e., Arcane Spellcasters, Commoners, those who worship a certain god)

Anything broader than a word would require a Divine Decree and the use of an Infusion.


Blesses and Curses can be countered by other gods, however. Each time it is countered, it becomes harder and harder for the gods to exert their will over each other. An omen only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

Do not treat “curse wars” like this:

1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
3 AP: Recreate super healing plants.
4 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
5 AP: Recreate super healing plants.


Treat them Like this:


1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Super healing plants are struck with a disease like real world plants and large cluster of them die because of lack of genetic diversity, now they only exists but far spread out, rarer and never in large clumps.
3 AP: Super healing plants emit an aura that make them easy to find.
4 AP: Plant poisonous plants around the world that emit the same aura, look the same and kill instantly, so a person looking for these plants will have to journey towards them but will never know if they will die or survive at the end of the journey.
5 AP: Create spirit guides that aren't an actual species but a manifestation of that super healing plant's benevolence, and like the will o' wisps in "Brave" they lead people away from the poisonous plants.


Heroes and Legends

What are myths without heroes? You may create a mortal to work in your gods stead or even against yourself on the material plane.


1 AP Promote Leader: Leaders are more like bureaucrats to a hero’s warrior. They are important and powerful – but they aren’t what epics are written about. They can be spy masters, mob bosses, kings, guild leaders etc. They don’t grant any bonus, but you don’t need a nexus to promote them and you can have as many as you like.
3 AP Raise Hero: You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. You may have any amount of heros you like. As long as you have a hero you gain 1 AP per hero, granted that you don't gain more AP than you have nations . A Hero grants +1 AP at rollover (This AP can be used to pay for a nation’s upkeep – when the nation your hero belongs to falls, your hero loses this 1 AP bonus). The trick is to expend this extra AP in a way to enhance the Hero’s stature – don’t just use the Hero to farm for more AP – try to tell a story with the hero. Make us care.
3 AP Create Legend: You may create a legend out of a hero. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. The only other restriction is that a hero must have existed for at least 2 rollovers to become eligible to becoming raised to a legend – you can also create a legend out of a leader but only provided that the leader has existed for at least 4 rollovers! A legend is basically a demi god. In fact Legends count as fledging gods that may not use a gain domain action. (they have 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP!) They gain 2 AP each rollover and have a max of 4 AP. You may only have 1 Legend at any one time. Legends dont have domains so they can't make or recieve non-cosmetic artifacts!


Life

Life is defined here as anything animate that can act of its own, or a god's will. Humans, Golems, and Undead, all fall under this category.


Mundane Life 1 AP: You create non-Sentient Animals (bugs, germs, gerbils) (you may use this action for free any amount of times when you use a create land action or an alter land action.)
Monstrous life 1 AP: non-sentient monsters Giant Spiders, Dire Animals, Purple Worms, or hell, Dinosaurs. You can't use an alter land action/create land action and make monstrous life. So while you can use alter land to make a land full of honey and bees without a mundane life action, you can't make Jurassic park with dinosaurs with just an alter or create land action.
Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life
Create magical life 3 AP: If the sentient life you create has any innate OR APTITUDE for magical abilities simply by existing then use this action instead. (I.E. elves)
Fabled life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Giants, Vampires, Fey, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings.



Create Concept


-Mundane 1AP: Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts.
- Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts.
- Magical 3 AP: Magical Concepts are ways of using power that allow the wielder to accomplish great things. Pyromancy, Necromancy, Abjuration, Healing these are all Magical concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.[
-Legendary 5 AP: Like Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are far from mundane. However, unlike Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are more than ways to use power. They are power itself. Arcane Magic, or Divine Magic, Immortal Souls, Afterlife are examples of Legendary Concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing. ALL MODERN/SCIFI CONCEPTS ARE LEGENDARY.


Gain Domain


4 AP Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 16 AP worth of AP since the last time they used this action.

Man on Fire
2013-06-03, 02:55 PM
What happened with Ages/Themes idea?

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 03:15 PM
And tripple post: but it is easier to seperate them:

Befor making a coment on this following proposal consider the proposal on my last post. No distinction between artifact/relic means that when you make an RCR relic and choose to give it to a mortal THAT IS A BIG DEAL! Also considering making MOD APPROVED BONUSES explicit as another thing a relic does.

Mortal RCR.

One on One

1) Each mortal rolls 1d6. The Higher roll wins the encounter
2) If the mortal is part of a society that is thematically martial they recieve +1 to this roll. Be honest.
3) If the mortal is part of a nation that is thematically martial they recieve +1 to this roll. Be honest.
4) Mortals receive +1 for each organization they are in that is thematically martial. Be Honest. Organization bonuses can't exceed +2. (Multi-national organizations count for this maximum)
5) If the Mortal is a Hero they recieve +2. Leaders receive no bonus. Also if a hero would lose a RCR roll a 1d6. If it is a 6 they instead win the battel. This represents the 1 in a million odds that heroes fall into with annoying frequency. If the opponent was also a hero, then they may also roll a 1d6, and if it is a 6 the orginal outcome of the one on one is still valid
6) if the Mortal is a magical life and that species of life is has some sort of martial or offensive/defensive innate magic that the mortal recieve a +1
7) if the Mortal is a fabeled life and that species of life is has some sort of martial or offensive/defensive innate magic that the mortal recieve a +6 (FABLED LIFE IS FABLED. A DRAGON IS HARD TO KILL EVEN FOR A HERO)
8) If the mortal is carrying a relic or artifact given to him by a god she receives +3 (Because Relics and artifacts are now the same, this bonus is justified by the choice of giving up RCR for a god.. A mortal may only carry 1 Relic.
9) For each magical or advanced concept that your mortal knows that would give her martial advantage she receives +1. (Maximum of +3)
10) if the mortal's home is the material plane, she receives -2 to any roll not on the material plane. (this is because other planes are special and outsiders are more powerful on their planes)
12) The winning mortal may choose to do anything to the losing mortal, except kill that mortal unless it was discussed OOC first. Please be realistic - if your mortal would die, then allow that mortal to die.


I am unsure about #11.

So the maximum a mortal can have is for an example:

Thoris, The Light Bringer. A Fabeled (+6) Angel hero (+2), who is the leader of the Inner Circle of Oathkeepers (+1), called the Speakers of the True Word (+1) carrying the flaming sword given to him by his god the Lord of light (+3). The Oathkeepers are the knights of the Kingdom of heaven (+1) which rules over angelic society (+1). Thoris is blessed with divine magic (+1), centuries of practicing swordsmanship (+1) and posseses the most advance armor the world has ever seen (+1).

1d6 +18

Now I doubt that such a being would exist for sometime - but no mortal hero can best it, except through luck. Nothing is impossible for a hero - even agains the most powerful hero a regular hero would win against Thoris around 17% of the time.

----

Now Legends are a different matter and will be addressed when I come up with a list for God v. Mortal. also TBD is Group V. Group

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 03:16 PM
What happened with Ages/Themes idea?

It has been tabled because the Theme idea is more of a recruitment idea rather than a gameplay mechanical idea.

Man on Fire
2013-06-03, 03:44 PM
It has been tabled because the Theme idea is more of a recruitment idea rather than a gameplay mechanical idea.

But ages was gameplay mechanical idea, you could keep ages without themes instead of throwing out both of them.

mystic1110
2013-06-03, 03:47 PM
The slash made me think that it was you just calling the same thing two different names. Sorry.

What is the mechanical idea? The society advancement thing (i.e. stoneage--> bronze age --> ironage) type thing? Didn't we decide against that or am I confused.

Man on Fire
2013-06-03, 04:14 PM
The slash made me think that it was you just calling the same thing two different names. Sorry.

What is the mechanical idea? The society advancement thing (i.e. stoneage--> bronze age --> ironage) type thing? Didn't we decide against that or am I confused.

I'm talking about "After X rounds god go for sleep for Y years, when they wake up they bid all stuff, what nobody pucharsed gets destroyed". Elricaltovilla's original idea, before I added themes to it.

C'nor
2013-06-03, 07:35 PM
I'm talking about "After X rounds god go for sleep for Y years, when they wake up they bid all stuff, what nobody pucharsed gets destroyed". Elricaltovilla's original idea, before I added themes to it.

My vote is against that. Godmodding the players into ignoring stuff for years is a really bad idea, for IC and OOC reasons.

Mynxae
2013-06-03, 07:38 PM
to be fair . . some people do. Elemental for example show'd his character grow, then assume the responsibilities of his dead brothers, and then finally go crazy from the pressure - all through domain actions. problem is very few players do that - and those that can . . . can still do that. . .

I tried to do this as well. It worked to a degree, but then, Isyldar was crazy already. Especially with his shards being even worse than he was and summoning a random top hat for him to wear. :smallbiggrin:

Also Mystic, nice new sig. :smallamused::smallredface::smallbiggrin:


My vote is against that. Godmodding the players into ignoring stuff for years is a really bad idea, for IC and OOC reasons.

Yeah I agree. That seems a bad idea for anyone involved. :smalleek:

C'nor
2013-06-03, 08:04 PM
I tried to do this as well. It worked to a degree, but then, Isyldar was crazy already. Especially with his shards being even worse than he was and summoning a random top hat for him to wear. :smallbiggrin:


As did I. The thing is, the old way, where you had to justify all of your domain gains, pretty much forced you to.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 07:45 AM
As did I. The thing is, the old way, where you had to justify all of your domain gains, pretty much forced you to.

How bout changing the gain domain action to:

•4 AP Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 16 AP worth of AP since the last time they used this action. This AP must be somehow related to the domain you're trying to get. Justfying how the AP you spent goes towards your domain is one of the oldest traditions of LOC.

@Mynxae : seriosly good to see you again - I'm sad that are other game got massively derailed by that guy who will not be named :smallannoyed:

C'nor
2013-06-04, 09:02 AM
Certainly an improvement, I think. 16 might be a bit much with the additional requirement, though.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 09:17 AM
Certainly an improvement, I think. 16 might be a bit much with the additional requirement, though.

Well under the old rules it was 7 AP + 3 to gain a domain and justify. meaning 20 AP to advance in Rank, with 6 being "wasted" on non-worldbuilding domains.

Here its 16 + 4. so still 20 AP with only 4 being "wasted"

Additionally the 16 requirment makes people actually care and work for a domain rather than make one off handedly. For example before a God could get a fire domain with just

5 AP : Fire plane
2 AP : Make Volcano.

Now he actually has to work for it, and do more than twice the amount of fire related things.

I don't think that is a bad thing!

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-04, 09:28 AM
Cat someone going for a fire domain to make with the new 16 AP rules?

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 09:34 AM
Cat someone going for a fire domain to make with the new 16 AP rules?

:smallconfused: sorry i don't understand :smallfrown:

Man on Fire
2013-06-04, 09:40 AM
My vote is against that. Godmodding the players into ignoring stuff for years is a really bad idea, for IC and OOC reasons.

The years in question is just a saying, something one "And thousands of years have passed" post from gm can cover. And it serves to actually make things get destroyed and get rid of many leftovers, created by players who abbandoned the game that nobody gives a damn about.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 09:42 AM
The years in question is just a saying, something one "And thousands of years have passed" post from gm can cover. And it serves to actually make things get destroyed and get rid of many leftovers, created by players who abbandoned the game.

To those who played in the Boundless game this is like the 1000 Years passed after the God Plauge. . . .

I mean it could work, but how frequently do you have in mind M.O.F.? Every 50 pages? Every 25? Every 10?

Emperor Demonking
2013-06-04, 10:13 AM
:smallconfused: sorry i don't understand :smallfrown:


Can you post what you'd expect someone going for the fire domain to make with the 16 AP rules?

C'nor
2013-06-04, 10:18 AM
Suns, volcanos, elemental races, curses that involve fire, laws involving, for instance, the burning of witches... Not saying it ought to be 16 AP, but coming up with fancy ways to make seemingly unrelated things fit is also a tradition of LoC games.

On 'Years Pass, Everything Changes'... That worked in BW-ES as a special event. And the mods can already declare special events. As a regular thing? Not so much.

Remember, if people abandon the game, others tend to take over their stuff. And so on.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 10:21 AM
Can you post what you'd expect someone going for the fire domain to make with the 16 AP rules?

Sure!

Old 7 AP justification

5 Plane of Fire
2 Create Volcanic continent on the material plane

New 16 AP justifications




5 Plane of Fire
3 Sanctum: City of Brass, Personal domain of the Fire God located on the first layer of the Plane of Fire
2 Create Volcanic Continent on the material plane
3 Create Effreets (not fabled, just a race on the material plane in this imagining)
1 Create Society of Effreets (Respect and admiration for Fire)
2 Create Nation: Empire of Brass





3 Make a Sun
3 Make another Sun
3 Make solar magic, that is tied to the the location of the twin suns
1 Give a Divine omen that children born when the twin suns at their zenith, are granted instant knowlege of solar magic, and no one else can use it.
1 Give a divine omen that Solar Dragons obey the words of Solar mages
5 make Solar Dragons





1 Omen - Burn a non Believer
1 Omen - Burn a mortal who stands up to you as you walk the landscape the very image of a forest fire
1 Alter land - Burn a forest
3 Make Nexus in some plane - probably some evil/fire/nature plane in order to make a . . .
2 nexus - take the charred forrest and make yourself a castel - the Burned manor, where your god shall remain since you plan to
5 Break the chains - flavor it as you burning away the laws that keep you from the mortal realm
2 Raise a champion (Hero): The Chared Knight. A human who sworn himself to your service: his armor still smoking from your touch - he is the most feared man in the land.
1 Omen: this is pure flavor but make it so that your hero is so hot that his steps fuse the sand and soil into glass. and over the years The Burned Manor becomes surrounded by glass footsteps.





1 Create concept: ART
3 Divine Word: every race/ people knows and appreciates Art
1 Divine Omen: For a special few would be driven by a special PASSION for art. They will be known as ARTISTS
2 Multinational Organization: A guild of ARTISTS
1 Divine Omen: ARTISTS will be driven mad unless they create new ART.
3 Create magical concept: ART - unlike regualr art, art when made by an ARTIST on the verge of madness will be able to open up a portal into the paintin, song itself
5 Create plane: The varried demiplanes of ART. This is not one plane but many planes for each painting, song, dance there is. Demiplanes only last as long as the painting is arround, the song is still playing or the dance is still being danced.
(This is for the domaine Fire ( the soul ))





(I can do this all day :smallwink: : this next one is for Fire ( Teacher, curtesy of Random Noun generator (http://www.desiquintans.com/noungenerator.php)
2 Create Sentient Race: Let's be boring and make them Human
1 Create Society: regular middle ages
2 create nation : Regular middle ages
3 Divine Word: BURN IT ALL DOWN.
1 Create Society : forged in a great catastrophe, humans are not bitter, no they are simply really perpared now - they have increased their studies of War. Fire has taught them there is only one truth: POWER.
2 Create Martial concepts: guns and gunpowder
5 Create legendary concept : Modern gun design - not modern guns, but the ideas of rifiling/construction/sights/cannons.



Not too hard - in the spirit of LOC, the justifications have always been loose. Hell the creation of germs have been used to justify a Love domain :smallwink:

C'nor
2013-06-04, 10:33 AM
S
Not too hard - in the spirit of LOC, the justifications have always been loose. Hell the creation of germs have been used to justify a Love domain :smallwink:

That's because Belithia was crazy, and it actually did make sense in context, to be fair. Considering she saw pain (and everything else) as love, making diseases actually fit that rather well...

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 10:39 AM
That's because Belithia was crazy, and it actually did make sense in context, to be fair. Considering she saw pain (and everything else) as love, making diseases actually fit that rather well...

it did - I only mentioned that jsut to show that you can justify alot to fit into any domain. refer to the ever exanding list of example above. :smallsmile:. I particularly like the art example. Fire could be read as Passion . . . belithia could read it as love :smallwink:

C'nor
2013-06-04, 10:45 AM
it did - I only mentioned that jsut to show that you can justify alot to fit into any domain. refer to the ever exanding list of example above. :smallsmile:

True. Just figured I'd offer up some context. :smallbiggrin:

And yeah, lots of stuff is there for anything, if you're creative enough.

Man on Fire
2013-06-04, 11:14 AM
Remember, if people abandon the game, others tend to take over their stuff. And so on.

You do realize this time skip is only in-universe, it's a post from GM that says X years passed and the auction and destruction of what nobody wanted to buy. I dont see how it makes people abbandon the game.

Virdish
2013-06-04, 01:16 PM
You do realize this time skip is only in-universe, it's a post from GM that says X years passed and the auction and destruction of what nobody wanted to buy. I dont see how it makes people abbandon the game.

I've been lurking for a while and this struck me as odd given the stated purpose of an LOC game is to create a coherent setting.

That problem is that not every setting would it make sense for every age to end in wanton destruction. It also leads to things that could lend to the setting afterwards being destroyed because no one wants them.

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-04, 01:32 PM
I've been lurking for a while and this struck me as odd given the stated purpose of an LOC game is to create a coherent setting.

That problem is that not every setting would it make sense for every age to end in wanton destruction. It also leads to things that could lend to the setting afterwards being destroyed because no one wants them.

It doesn't HAVE to be a time skip. Just a major event that signals a change throughout the realms. Its supposed to help keep things from getting stagnant, allow another way to draw in new players and ideas, facilitate things changing hands from one player to another, give the chronicler(s) time to get the setting written down, give homebrewers time to actually write up/catalogue the settings homebrew and give people a short break to look back on what they've done so far.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 01:41 PM
God Vs. Mortal RCR Proposal:


1) A GOD or a LEGEND may spend at least 1 AP to automaticaly win the fight in anyway they want.
2) If a GOD or a LEGEND do not spend AP they can LOSE. Mortals can punch out cuthulu sometimes.
3) GOD's and LEGENDS are treated as mortals with a +20 RCR bonus. Meaning that a mortal can never beat them in a RCR.
4) Thus a mortals only chance is to be a Hero and have a 1d6 "comeback" roll.
5) The GOD or LEGEND, like another Hero will also have a "comeback Roll" as well - except unlike a Hero a GOD or LEGEND will have as many comeback rolls as they have Domains.
6) Legends count as feldgings and thus count as having two domains.


Past proposals:

Mortal RCR.

One on One


1) Each mortal rolls 1d6. The Higher roll wins the encounter
2) If the mortal is part of a society that is thematically martial they recieve +1 to this roll. Be honest.
3) If the mortal is part of a nation that is thematically martial they recieve +1 to this roll. Be honest.
4) Mortals receive +1 for each organization they are in that is thematically martial. Be Honest. Organization bonuses can't exceed +2. (Multi-national organizations count for this maximum)
5) If the Mortal is a Hero they recieve +2. Leaders receive no bonus. Also if a hero would lose a RCR roll a 1d6. If it is a 6 they instead win the battel. This represents the 1 in a million odds that heroes fall into with annoying frequency. If the opponent was also a hero, then they may also roll a 1d6, and if it is a 6 the orginal outcome of the one on one is still valid
6) if the Mortal is a magical life and that species of life is has some sort of martial or offensive/defensive innate magic that the mortal recieve a +1
7) if the Mortal is a fabeled life and that species of life is has some sort of martial or offensive/defensive innate magic that the mortal recieve a +6 (FABLED LIFE IS FABLED. A DRAGON IS HARD TO KILL EVEN FOR A HERO)
8) If the mortal is carrying a relic or artifact given to him by a god she receives +3 (Because Relics and artifacts are now the same, this bonus is justified by the choice of giving up RCR for a god.. A mortal may only carry 1 Relic.
9) For each magical or advanced concept that your mortal knows that would give her martial advantage she receives +1. (Maximum of +3)
10) if the mortal's home is the material plane, she receives -2 to any roll not on the material plane. (this is because other planes are special and outsiders are more powerful on their planes)
12) The winning mortal may choose to do anything to the losing mortal, except kill that mortal unless it was discussed OOC first. Please be realistic - if your mortal would die, then allow that mortal to die.



Past proposals with changes marked in some way.

Character Creation

A Godly Name
TWO Domains (choose what domains gives you; 1) +2 to Attack; 2) +2 to defense; 3) +8 HP; OR 4) knowing when someone else is using an action tied to that specific domain (No List)
An associative portfolio
And a character description: include Alignment and goals here.

You start off with 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense, 10 HP plus whatever you choose with your additional domain.

Other Rules

You gain 1+X AP per rollover, where X is how many domains you have. 5 is the maximum number of domains you may have.

Rank Name| Weekly AP | Infusions| Required Domains
Fledgling Deity | 3 |1 |2
Lesser Deity | 4 |1 |3
Intermediate Deity | 5 | 2 |4
Greater Deity | 6 | 2 |5
Elder Deity| 7 | 3 | 6
Over Deity*| ? | ? | 12!

*YOU MAY CONTINUE GETTING MORE DOMAINS AFTER YOUR 6th BUT THEY PROVIDE NO BONUS NOR DO THEY ALLOW YOU TO MAKE MORE RCR ARTIFACTS. GETTING YOUR 12th DOMAIN IS A HUGE EVENT! DISCUSS IT OOC FIRST

Gods above Fledging may not access the material plane

You may only have 1 Shard per every Infusion you have left/used. Shards are just shards of a god, they can engage in battle or be attacked, The god who's shard is destroyed knows about it's destruction.

you start with 15 AP

RCR


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +8 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +4 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGED TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may make up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle (this may be used on any plane!)
13) The winning player may impose the following choices on the loser; each time the winning player wins against the loser he must choose a different choice

1) Comand: Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprison: Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim: Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus. The losing god is allowed to pay the cost of an RCR relic to replace his lost body part, after the next rollover - the loser may use this action even if she currently has the maximum allowed number of RCR relics.
4) Mercy (Nothing)
5) WOUND (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God)
6) BLOODY (This is a thematic action, there is no affect to the losing God) - You may only use this action if you already WOUNDED during combat.
7) Strip: Make the losing god lose one of his domains. Winners choice - you are stripping the loser of one of her divine authority. The losing god thus drops in divine rank. If the losing God was a fledging - they become a mere legend. They will no longer be capable of ascending or gaing more domains. They are almost mortal now. Unlike legends though - they may still weild relics and they have no maximum AP. You may only choose this option if you BLOODIED the losing god during this combat.

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (Relic and domain HP bonuses apply
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival.
16) If it is a draw and both players do not engage in anymore RCR they may each make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.



Pantheons

When you a born into the game - you automatically join a pantheon between your progenitor and yourself, unless your progenitor is already part of a pantheon and in that case you will join that pantheon. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time.

The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader.

Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon. A god is never forced to use AP to fulfill an order. IF A PANTHEON MEMBER DOES NOT FOLLOW AN ORDER THE LEADER MAY EVICT HIM/HER FROM THE PANTHEON; MAY ENGAGE IN RCR WITHOUT PAYING AP; OR CHOOSE TO DO NOTHING


But being a leader brings it's own responsibilities. The leader of any pantheon must obey these rule:


Pantheon leader cannot openly act against the good of the pantheon. If he does, the strongest member may challenge him for the crown. Strongest is Highest Rank. If more than one player is tied for highest rank it is the one with highest AP. A challenge is not an RCR challenge but a democratic vote between the pantheon members. The challenger and challengee do not get to vote (meaning that an effective change of command can only work in a pantheon with 3 or more members). This also means unpopular pantheon leaders can be displaced. The ousted leader will become a regular member of the pantheon.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members. GOALS ARE ENCOURAGED TO BE VAUGE
Pantheon leader must defend members of his pantheon against attacks of other gods (that he knows of), either by himself or by sending other members of the pantheon.



Create Pantheon: 1 AP
Join a pantheon: 1 AP
Subordinate your pantheon to another pantheon: 1 AP.


Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

When a deity uses Create Nation, he must spend at least 1 AP every week on that nation to maintain it. He may use any action he chooses, but he must spend at least 1 AP on an action that affects that nation and that nation alone. This action could be a Omen, Word, Nexus, Mold Land, or any other action the deity's player chooses. IF A GOD DOES NOT USE 1 AP TO "MAINTAIN" THE NATION - THE NATION WILL FALL NEXT ROLLOVER UNLESS THE GOD USES 3 AP to "MAINTAIN" THE NATION.

THEMATICALLY USING A HEROE'S OR LEGEND'S AP TO MAINTAIN THE NATION CAN BE DISPLAYED AS THE NATION NOT GETTING ANY DIVINE HELP.

Organizations survive the fall of the nation - but never as they once were. They either may seek power to become a nation of their own (Think the church through the fall fo the roman empire into the Vatican); shadow rulers (think the masons); or simply forgotten (Think The templars)

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.

1 AP Form Society : Organizes an existing sapient race into an organized society, whether that is a tribe, nation, small kingdom, etc.
2 AP Create Nation : Expands an existing society into a powerful empire. An empire is much larger than a society and tends to have many citizens and powerful armies at their disposal.
1 AP Form national Organization
2 AP create a multinational or non-national organization.



Land Actions

A big part of being a god is changing the landscape around you!


Alter Land 1 AP: Alter land allows a god to change already existing landscapes. It can be used to create mountain ranges, vast forests, lakes, swamps, or any other kind of "land type" you could think of. This includes razing and raising cities! Alter land can also be used to raise small chains of islands from the sea. These islands cannot be very big, but can be large enough to support a small kingdom. Think about the size of Hawaii. Alter land actions can also be used to change the layout of existing land, such changes can be the creation of the largest mountain in the world to the greatest forest.

Create Land 2 AP: allows a god to create land where there is none. It can be used to raise a small continent from the sea, or create large, floating islands in a plane where there is no planet. Land created by Create Land can be up to the size of Russia

Forge Astronomical Object 3AP: Use this action to create a celestial body such as a moon, planet, asteroid, or sun. If your astronomical object has special properties such as an empathic link to yourself, or can move contrary to the rules of gravity and physics – it is a Relic NOT an Astronomical Object

Form Nexus 1AP: You may create a location of mystic and divine energy connected to a preexisting sanctum your god control/owns. A nexus may be a building, a door, a portion of a forest, a specific cave, but must be a specific location – it cannot be “the ocean.” Promoting mortals to higher rank of mortal can only occur in a Nexus.

Weave Sanctum 2 AP: You may create a location of divinity attuned to your god. This location may be anywhere not on the material plane. Your seat of power may be a layer of a plane, or a simple foreboding castle. Gods may only enter another God’s sanctum if they have permission or initiated combat.

Imagine Plane 5AP : Imagine Plane allows a god to create the fabric of their own reality. Planes are entire dimensions apart from the normal world, and can take any form a god can imagine. Hell, Heaven, or Limbo, are examples of planes. When weaving a plane, the creating god must decide on any special features it has, such as accelerated time, or empowered magic. A god may also decide how many layers there are initially. This can vary from one, to thousands, though most planes have less than three. Unlike a sanctum a god gets no special benefit for being within his or her own realm or plane. Your god does not "own" a plane he made - in fact other gods creating and living in a plane you made is encouraged!!


Relics:

(took out distinction between Relics or Artifacts)

When Relics are made can only do 1 of 3 things:


Grant a cosmetic bonus for roleplaying effect
OR grant +1 to attack; OR +1 to defense; or +4 to HP;
OR grant a thematic BONUS. (DISCUSS ANY THEMATIC BONUSES IN THE OOC FIRST - YOU NEED PUBLIC MOD APPROVAL FOR THIS.)


You may only create 1 non-cosmetic relics per each domain you have (maximum is thus 11 before over diety status). This is creation not just possession - so if you give away an artifact it still counts towards your limit)


Relics are 2 AP


Infusions

Infusions are the vestiges of your divine spark. You have 1 infusion available when the game starts and you gain 1 more infusion when you gain 3 domains, and a third and final infusion when you gain 5 domains.

With the expenditure of an infusion you may:


5 AP Unfold Divinity: Your powers as a god increase as you flower into a form closer to your true divinity. From now on you will gain 1 extra AP per rollover for each time you used Unfold Divinity.

5 AP Break the Chains: You struggle to break the bars that keep you from the mortal plane. With this action you may ignore the rule forbidding gods above fledging from accessing the mortal world.

5 AP Divine Decree: While Divine Omens can affect a person and a divine word can affect a small nation the divine decree affects Everything Everywhere! The divine decree simply states a new constant of the universe; be that all life is immortal; that souls are real; the gravity does not exist; or even that everything is now yellow. Divine decrees can be countered with a divine word action or a divine omen action: but that action still only affects the usual area. So while divine decree can make everything feel love, a god can make the people of a small nation incapable of love through word, or a single person in capable of love through an omen


Omens and Words.

Omens and Words are the will of the gods made manifest. They can range from a golden age for an empire, or to increase the mortal population. The population that finds themselves under the pleasure of a god will find their crops prosperous and their ways smoothed, as the subtle magic of the god is worked in their favor, The population that finds themselves under the curse of a god will find their crops barren and their land blighted, as the subtle magic of the god works against them.

The important thing to remember is to try to keep Omen and Words subtle – the ocassional overt action of a god is impressive but it gets boring quickly – make blesses and curses much much more than: “everyone is super strong now” – instead go for blesses like “I impart the wisdom of martial training and harsh conditions to my people – over the years they become stronger, more durable – their children fit for survival in my vision of the world”

The difference between Omens and Words is the area of their effects:


Divine Omen 1 AP: From a single person to an average-sized town's worth of people. A section of an army. An exceedingly sparsely populated area.

Divine Word 3 AP: Anywhere from a large city's worth of people. A small army in its entirety. A rural, but settled are to a large nation or kingdom, and all within it, including settlements of any size. Anyone matching a SPECIFIC descriptor (I.e., Arcane Spellcasters, Commoners, those who worship a certain god)

Anything broader than a word would require a Divine Decree and the use of an Infusion.


Blesses and Curses can be countered by other gods, however. Each time it is countered, it becomes harder and harder for the gods to exert their will over each other. An omen only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

Do not treat “curse wars” like this:

1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
3 AP: Recreate super healing plants.
4 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
5 AP: Recreate super healing plants.


Treat them Like this:


1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Super healing plants are struck with a disease like real world plants and large cluster of them die because of lack of genetic diversity, now they only exists but far spread out, rarer and never in large clumps.
3 AP: Super healing plants emit an aura that make them easy to find.
4 AP: Plant poisonous plants around the world that emit the same aura, look the same and kill instantly, so a person looking for these plants will have to journey towards them but will never know if they will die or survive at the end of the journey.
5 AP: Create spirit guides that aren't an actual species but a manifestation of that super healing plant's benevolence, and like the will o' wisps in "Brave" they lead people away from the poisonous plants.


Heroes and Legends

What are myths without heroes? You may create a mortal to work in your gods stead or even against yourself on the material plane.


1 AP Promote Leader: Leaders are more like bureaucrats to a hero’s warrior. They are important and powerful – but they aren’t what epics are written about. They can be spy masters, mob bosses, kings, guild leaders etc. They don’t grant any bonus, but you don’t need a nexus to promote them and you can have as many as you like.
2 AP Raise Hero: You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. You may have any amount of heros you like. As long as you have a hero you gain 1 AP per hero, granted that you don't gain more AP than you have nations . A Hero grants +1 AP at rollover (This AP can be used to pay for a nation’s upkeep – when the nation your hero belongs to falls, your hero loses this 1 AP bonus). The trick is to expend this extra AP in a way to enhance the Hero’s stature – don’t just use the Hero to farm for more AP – try to tell a story with the hero. Make us care
3 AP Create Legend: You may create a legend out of a hero. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. The only other restriction is that a hero must have existed for at least 2 rollovers to become eligible to becoming raised to a legend – you can also create a legend out of a leader but only provided that the leader has existed for at least 4 rollovers! A legend is basically a demi god. In fact Legends count as fledging gods that may not use a gain domain action. (they have 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP!) They gain 2 AP each rollover and have a max of 4 AP. You may only have 1 Legend at any one time. Legends dont have domains so they can't make or recieve non-cosmetic artifacts!


Life

Life is defined here as anything animate that can act of its own, or a god's will. Humans, Golems, and Undead, all fall under this category.


Mundane Life 1 AP: You create non-Sentient Animals (bugs, germs, gerbils) (you may use this action for free any amount of times when you use a create land action or an alter land action.)
Monstrous life 1 AP: non-sentient monsters Giant Spiders, Dire Animals, Purple Worms, or hell, Dinosaurs. You can't use an alter land action/create land action and make monstrous life. So while you can use alter land to make a land full of honey and bees without a mundane life action, you can't make Jurassic park with dinosaurs with just an alter or create land action.
Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life
Create magical life 3 AP: If the sentient life you create has any innate OR APTITUDE for magical abilities simply by existing then use this action instead. (I.E. elves)
Fabled life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Giants, Vampires, Fey, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings.



Create Concept


-Mundane 1AP: Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts.
- Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts.
- Magical 3 AP: Magical Concepts are ways of using power that allow the wielder to accomplish great things. Pyromancy, Necromancy, Abjuration, Healing these are all Magical concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.[
-Legendary 5 AP: Like Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are far from mundane. However, unlike Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are more than ways to use power. They are power itself. Arcane Magic, or Divine Magic, Immortal Souls, Afterlife are examples of Legendary Concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing. ALL MODERN/SCIFI CONCEPTS ARE LEGENDARY.


Gain Domain


4 AP Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 16 AP worth of AP since the last time they used this action. The 16 AP used must somehow justify the domain. This is easy. If you want a Fire Domain and you want to make a Curse - burn something. If you want to make a Hero - make him a Solar hero . . . etc

Virdish
2013-06-04, 01:45 PM
It doesn't HAVE to be a time skip. Just a major event that signals a change throughout the realms. Its supposed to help keep things from getting stagnant, allow another way to draw in new players and ideas, facilitate things changing hands from one player to another, give the chronicler(s) time to get the setting written down, give homebrewers time to actually write up/catalogue the settings homebrew and give people a short break to look back on what they've done so far.

You still get the same result when looking back at the world in that unless you simply ret con it all away you still have a history with several distinctive cataclysmic events. While this is a perfectly ok and fun design principle in a world it is not going to fit into every world. If you put it into the core mechanics of the game then every world will have that theme or they will have to ignore that rule. I understand the reason for the rule I just think that it has unintended effects.

As for my complaint about getting rid of things that could be interesting in the setting I will give a specific example of how this could play out.

God of Chaos creates artifact that gives a bonus to his society and proclaims the king.

God of chaos gets bored with the game and decides that his god will get consumed by something and die.

New cataclysm rule take effect and no one wants the deities stuff so it is destroyed.

You have effectively just destroyed a campaign starting relic. Imagine for an instant how you could use that artifact in a campaign. But because no one saw a reason why they would want it the artifact is now gone.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 02:00 PM
I mean I guess the age/theme rule can be this (with flavor!) :

The Creator was the first born of out of the flux of Primordial Chaos. In his first act he errects the material plane against the hostility of the Cacoastrum (the stuff of chaos). But the Cacoastrum periodically grows violent and assails the walls of material plane in great Waves. The Creator at faught agaisnt the tides of the Cacoastrum and in such a way forced his will upon the flux and it mimiced him in response: giving birth to the First Gods. Seeing the New Gods, born of his order and the flux of Chaos, the Creator declared them his stewards and LORDS OF CREATION. He tasked them with creation and maintaining reality against the waves of the Cacoastrum. He then sacrificed himself to errect a wall around creation - to give his stewards time to prepare for the coming storms.

And thus the LORDS OF CREATION create - and maintain. Yet the Creator's wall is not all powerful - occasionally the Cacoastrum flows through and beseaches creation. Against this Force the LORDS OF CREATION fight against it. Yet like their creator before them, such an action creates new gods and new dangers. Each time the Cacoastrum attacks and is fought back, more gods rise. These are called the AGES. Each AGE brings with it something new, the gods born in each AGE are different than the past.

Basically the idea is that each AGE will have 8 gods. So the first 8 approved gods are the first age and the next 8 approved gods are the second age and so on. Each AGE will happen as soon as the next group of gods is ready, maybe a week or two buffer.

Whenever an AGE happens if there are any dead gods - in OOC we will figure out what to do with there stuff.

Virdish
2013-06-04, 02:13 PM
I mean I guess the age/theme rule can be this (with flavor!) :

The Creator was the first born of out of the flux of Primordial Chaos. In his first act he errects the material plane against the hostility of the Cacoastrum (the stuff of chaos). But the Cacoastrum periodically grows violent and assails the walls of material plane in great Waves. The Creator at faught agaisnt the tides of the Cacoastrum and in such a way forced his will upon the flux and it mimiced him in response: giving birth to the First Gods. Seeing the New Gods, born of his order and the flux of Chaos, the Creator declared them his stewards and LORDS OF CREATION. He tasked them with creation and maintaining reality against the waves of the Cacoastrum. He then sacrificed himself to errect a wall around creation - to give his stewards time to prepare for the coming storms.

And thus the LORDS OF CREATION create - and maintain. Yet the Creator's wall is not all powerful - occasionally the Cacoastrum flows through and beseaches creation. Against this Force the LORDS OF CREATION fight against it. Yet like their creator before them, such an action creates new gods and new dangers. Each time the Cacoastrum attacks and is fought back, more gods rise. These are called the AGES. Each AGE brings with it something new, the gods born in each AGE are different than the past.

Basically the idea is that each AGE will have 8 gods. So the first 8 approved gods are the first age and the next 8 approved gods are the second age and so on. Each AGE will happen as soon as the next group of gods is ready, maybe a week or two buffer.

Whenever an AGE happens if there are any dead gods - in OOC we will figure out what to do with there stuff.

Deciding OOC what to do with stuff is fine (I'm assuming the fluff wouldn't be a part of the core rules) I still don't agree with forcing a certain theme onto a world. It should be the creation of the players involved and putting these type of rule into effect heavy hands the players into making a certain reality since they have to make the events make sense in the mythos of their world. I also think that forcing an age every time you have a new group of gods is clunky as well since it forces odd things to happen. It once again imparts a certain flavor onto the world. God are only born when outside forces spur their existence. But what if the players wanted gods to rise up from the mortal plane. Or they wanted a Greek style God birth where two gods could have a younger god. Those two things would take a little bit of tweaking to make fit into an 8 Gods pop out at once type of structure and it becomes hard to explain in retrospect when you have the realization that every so often a set of 8 Gods pops up, and only 8 every time.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 02:21 PM
Deciding OOC what to do with stuff is fine (I'm assuming the fluff wouldn't be a part of the core rules) I still don't agree with forcing a certain theme onto a world. It should be the creation of the players involved and putting these type of rule into effect heavy hands the players into making a certain reality since they have to make the events make sense in the mythos of their world. I also think that forcing an age every time you have a new group of gods is clunky as well since it forces odd things to happen. It once again imparts a certain flavor onto the world. God are only born when outside forces spur their existence. But what if the players wanted gods to rise up from the mortal plane. Or they wanted a Greek style God birth where two gods could have a younger god. Those two things would take a little bit of tweaking to make fit into an 8 Gods pop out at once type of structure and it becomes hard to explain in retrospect when you have the realization that every so often a set of 8 Gods pops up, and only 8 every time.

Lol no the fluff is just fluff - nothing to be included in the rules.

C'nor
2013-06-04, 02:33 PM
You do realize this time skip is only in-universe, it's a post from GM that says X years passed and the auction and destruction of what nobody wanted to buy. I dont see how it makes people abbandon the game.

...Yes. I do. Contrary to popular belief, I really am not an idiot. I'm saying you're trying to solve a non-existent problem, since assuming the deity had enough time to make an impact, their creations will be taken under someone's wing, and if not, they likely didn't really create a problematic amount of deadwood.

Mystic:

I'm not fond of the limit on how many gods. Many of the best plots, both in terms of gameplay and setting creation, have stemmed from the creation of new deities, and how they specifically entered the world.

Remember Savorla entering From the Void? Had she not been born, in that way, to those parents, a world-spanning civil war wouldn't have started, a moon would never have been made... Etc.

I'm also still not in favor of building cataclysms, etc., into the rules. If the players think one would work? Great! Otherwise, everyone's going to either ignore it or complain about it constantly, because it interrupts their plans, etc..

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 02:37 PM
...Yes. I do. Contrary to popular belief, I really am not an idiot. I'm saying you're trying to solve a non-existent problem, since assuming the deity had enough time to make an impact, their creations will be taken under someone's wing, and if not, they likely didn't really create a problematic amount of deadwood.

Mystic:

I'm not fond of the limit on how many gods. Many of the best plots, both in terms of gameplay and setting creation, have stemmed from the creation of new deities, and how they specifically entered the world.

Remember Savorla entering From the Void? Had she not been born, in that way, to those parents, a world-spanning civil war wouldn't have started, a moon would never have been made... Etc.

I'm also still not in favor of building cataclysms, etc., into the rules. If the players think one would work? Great! Otherwise, everyone's going to either ignore it or complain about it constantly, because it interrupts their plans, etc..

C'nor - I was just trying to find middleground between M.O.F's positions and other peoples.

And even if we do away in general ages it would nice to have sort of generations. For some reason I particularly don't like it when a God is just born, and then births another god . . . i would like idk at least a couple pages of RP/creation before new people join.

Moonwolf727
2013-06-04, 02:47 PM
And even if we do away in general ages it would nice to have sort of generations. For some reason I particularly don't like it when a God is just born, and then births another god . . . i would like idk at least a couple pages of RP/creation before new people join.

I'm aware my input isn't worth much on this issue but to be honest I really don't like the idea of ages. Fair enough if you don't want to have gods spawned right away and then spawning even more, it breaks immersion like almost nothing else, but this is a rather roundabout way of solving a relatively simple problem. Just put a limit on how much time has to pass before additional gods can be birthed/spawned/whatever'd. It doesn't even have to be a concrete rule, it can just be a small, but firmly worded, suggestion in a seperate spoiler box, in fact I'd prefer it that way. Spawning new gods without a decent waiting period isn't enough of an issue to warrant a new rule considering the amount of arguments and misinterpretations uneccessary rules can, but don't always, cause.

Let's keep it simple and not bog ourselves down with any rules or mechanics that aren't entirely needed.

mystic1110
2013-06-04, 02:50 PM
I'm aware my input isn't worth much on this issue but to be honest I really don't like the idea of ages. Fair enough if you don't want to have gods spawned right away and then spawning even more, it breaks immersion like almost nothing else, but this is a rather roundabout way of solving a relatively simple problem. Just put a limit on how much time has to pass before additional gods can be birthed/spawned/whatever'd. It doesn't even have to be a concrete rule, it can just be a small, but firmly worded, suggestion in a seperate spoiler box, in fact I'd prefer it that way. Spawning new gods without a decent waiting period isn't enough of an issue to warrant a new rule considering the amount of arguments and misinterpretations uneccessary rules can, but don't always, cause.

Let's keep it simple and not bog ourselves down with any rules or mechanics that aren't entirely needed.

Fair enough.

Man on Fire
2013-06-04, 02:51 PM
You still get the same result when looking back at the world in that unless you simply ret con it all away you still have a history with several distinctive cataclysmic events. While this is a perfectly ok and fun design principle in a world it is not going to fit into every world. If you put it into the core mechanics of the game then every world will have that theme or they will have to ignore that rule. I understand the reason for the rule I just think that it has unintended effects.

As for my complaint about getting rid of things that could be interesting in the setting I will give a specific example of how this could play out.

God of Chaos creates artifact that gives a bonus to his society and proclaims the king.

God of chaos gets bored with the game and decides that his god will get consumed by something and die.

New cataclysm rule take effect and no one wants the deities stuff so it is destroyed.

You have effectively just destroyed a campaign starting relic. Imagine for an instant how you could use that artifact in a campaign. But because no one saw a reason why they would want it the artifact is now gone.

Not really. You see, every Age is set as their own separate setting. So what has been destroyed at the begining of new age is still there in previous age. You can have quest abotu artifact in first age and in second it dissapears.
And we can easily set up guidelines what happens with specific sort of creation when cataclysm happens. Artifacts may have been lost, societies may fall, organisations may break apart - all with a way to bring them back in a bit alerted form. Heck, we could set it as suggestion.


...Yes. I do. Contrary to popular belief, I really am not an idiot.

Sorry, but twice in a row yu brought up something that sound like you thought this requires OOC break.


I'm saying you're trying to solve a non-existent problem, since assuming the deity had enough time to make an impact, their creations will be taken under someone's wing, and if not, they likely didn't really create a problematic amount of deadwood.

I remember from my game that a lot of gods created horrifing amount of important stuff - races, societies, artifacts, that never got mentioned again when they left. At the later phase of the game few players started playing a bit with flying islands and one plane left by two other gods, but most of the stuff lied there and made chronolicles of the world feel incomplete.


I'm also still not in favor of building cataclysms, etc., into the rules. If the players think one would work? Great! Otherwise, everyone's going to either ignore it or complain about it constantly, because it interrupts their plans, etc..

And if they complain the response should be "Well, I guess Aslan didn't wanted hundred years long winter to interrupt his plans either".

Maybe we could just include Ages/Themes rules as optional ones, for players who want those things for precisely the same reasosn you are against them?

Moonwolf727
2013-06-04, 02:57 PM
Fair enough.

Does everyone find it this disconcerting when people agree with them?! :smalleek:
I feel like I'm being really bossy when people just go along with what I say. (If I am being bossy, please tell me).

C'nor
2013-06-04, 03:02 PM
And if they complain the response should be "Well, I guess Aslan didn't wanted hundred years long winter to interrupt his plans either".

Maybe we could just include Ages/Themes rules as optional ones, for players who want those things for precisely the same reasosn you are against them?

...Aslan is a character. The characters being annoyed is fine. When the rules make the players angry about things, that's a problem.

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-04, 03:13 PM
You still get the same result when looking back at the world in that unless you simply ret con it all away you still have a history with several distinctive cataclysmic events. While this is a perfectly ok and fun design principle in a world it is not going to fit into every world. If you put it into the core mechanics of the game then every world will have that theme or they will have to ignore that rule. I understand the reason for the rule I just think that it has unintended effects.

As for my complaint about getting rid of things that could be interesting in the setting I will give a specific example of how this could play out.

God of Chaos creates artifact that gives a bonus to his society and proclaims the king.

God of chaos gets bored with the game and decides that his god will get consumed by something and die.

New cataclysm rule take effect and no one wants the deities stuff so it is destroyed.

You have effectively just destroyed a campaign starting relic. Imagine for an instant how you could use that artifact in a campaign. But because no one saw a reason why they would want it the artifact is now gone.

Each age is supposed to be collected as its own (sub)setting. You don't lose the ability to play one Age simply because the worldbuilders have moved on to the next Age. Ideally it will result in multiple unique (sub)settings coming from the same LOC game.

Virdish
2013-06-04, 04:02 PM
Each age is supposed to be collected as its own (sub)setting. You don't lose the ability to play one Age simply because the worldbuilders have moved on to the next Age. Ideally it will result in multiple unique (sub)settings coming from the same LOC game.

That is fine and dandy but I still bring up the point of forcing a certain flavor into the world with the cataclysms.

My other point is that getting rid of stuff just cause someone doesn't want to claim it feels short sighted. Getting rid of extraneous addons is fine I just think a different system should be in place for it.

C'nor
2013-06-04, 04:17 PM
You seem to be neglecting that taking narrative control away from the players when not absolutely necessary sort of defeats the purpose of it being set up to allow the players free reign to make a setting.

Man on Fire
2013-06-04, 06:20 PM
On he other hand giving them 100% narrative control results in world of special snowflakes and mary sues where ntohing ever changes and there aren't even any ruins to explore because nobody will allow anything to everbe destroyed.

Also, John Wick had said it best - "Good game forces people to make choices they really don't want to make". This is mechanics that adds this element to the game - at auction it forces players to choose what to keep, what to give up on and what to sacrifice. It's something LoC currently lack and shoudl have.

Also, no world ever comes perfect as gods wished it to be, these rules help making that happen i nthe game.

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-04, 06:46 PM
That is fine and dandy but I still bring up the point of forcing a certain flavor into the world with the cataclysms.

My other point is that getting rid of stuff just cause someone doesn't want to claim it feels short sighted. Getting rid of extraneous addons is fine I just think a different system should be in place for it.

Its not like it can't be brought back for a quick AP expenditure.

You make a fair point about adding a certain flavor with the events (which again, could be concievably anything) but since this is one rule that attempts to solve multiple issues, I think its worth it.

Mynxae
2013-06-04, 07:30 PM
Ah, time-skips. Reminds me of Boundless Wonder, Endless Strife, for when there was the first major time-skip (that I soon quite after because I didn't really like my character and didn't have much time to play him otherwise) of 1000 years and that miffed some people, but it was also tied to the special event of a Godplague that could only be fixed by sleeping for 1000 years and being watched over by a god that was robotic I think... So perhaps short time-skips are alright, but for long ones like the ones mentioned above, have events tied in with it? :smallsigh:

C'nor
2013-06-04, 07:36 PM
On he other hand giving them 100% narrative control results in world of special snowflakes and mary sues where ntohing ever changes and there aren't even any ruins to explore because nobody will allow anything to everbe destroyed.

Might I suggest finding a group that actually knows how to RP, then? In the past five games, I've seen nothing like that. I purposefully killed off an entire species I'd made due to fluff effects of another deity looking at the place containing them in my first game. Other players in that let their people be assimilated into a magical hivemind. They fought it, yes, but they're not supposed to be completely apathetic to people messing with their stuff - and anyway, it was the mortals themselves, not the deities cursing them out of existence, in many ways. In Boundless Wonder, Endless Strife, several players intentionally set up wars for IC reasons, and allowed my Fae to kidnap them.

Mystic's Merfolk in Spawn of the Chronicler ended up ruling most of the world at one time. A demon invasion triggered by Yeshon in that destroyed a country and made the inhabitants who lived flee for the kingdoms of the dwarves, who were in the midst of fighting a losing battle against Eosa's Nightmares, and had locked themselves in to help combat plagues spread by yet another species, which were cutting through their population.

The fact that you had one game in which the players didn't actually RP things well does not mean that the rules are deficient.


Also, no world ever comes perfect as gods wished it to be, these rules help making that happen i nthe game.

Excuse me, but they're deities. Their whims may not always come true, but pretty much, they can make the world be the way they want it. The conflict is supposed to come from different deities with different viewpoints, not no deity ever being able to achieve what they try in the way they want.

Elemental
2013-06-04, 10:34 PM
The Creator was the first born of out of the flux of Primordial Chaos. In his first act he errects the material plane against the hostility of the Cacoastrum (the stuff of chaos). But the Cacoastrum periodically grows violent and assails the walls of material plane in great Waves. The Creator at faught agaisnt the tides of the Cacoastrum and in such a way forced his will upon the flux and it mimiced him in response: giving birth to the First Gods. Seeing the New Gods, born of his order and the flux of Chaos, the Creator declared them his stewards and LORDS OF CREATION. He tasked them with creation and maintaining reality against the waves of the Cacoastrum. He then sacrificed himself to errect a wall around creation - to give his stewards time to prepare for the coming storms.

And thus the LORDS OF CREATION create - and maintain. Yet the Creator's wall is not all powerful - occasionally the Cacoastrum flows through and beseaches creation. Against this Force the LORDS OF CREATION fight against it. Yet like their creator before them, such an action creates new gods and new dangers. Each time the Cacoastrum attacks and is fought back, more gods rise. These are called the AGES. Each AGE brings with it something new, the gods born in each AGE are different than the past.

Basically the idea is that each AGE will have 8 gods. So the first 8 approved gods are the first age and the next 8 approved gods are the second age and so on. Each AGE will happen as soon as the next group of gods is ready, maybe a week or two buffer.

Whenever an AGE happens if there are any dead gods - in OOC we will figure out what to do with there stuff.

I like this idea for an initial premise of a Lords of Creation game. We should maybe think about it for future use.
But I don't like the limitations on births. Yes, it's weird when a newborn gives birth and we should discourage that, but some gods like to have children, others do not. Some gods are best to spawn from nightmares or the Void or chaos, whereas others should originate from divine order. Anyway... It doesn't seem fair to leave people waiting for another person to apply just so they can be spawned.


As for the matter of Ages in general, I think we should use them in some games and not in others. After all... Most LoCs have some kind of initial premise based around the nature of the creator. And if people want an initial premise that brings about Ages, then so be it. But it shouldn't be part of the standard rules.
(We are trying to make a standardised version here? Right?)

Elricaltovilla
2013-06-04, 10:51 PM
Excuse me, but they're deities. Their whims may not always come true, but pretty much, they can make the world be the way they want it. The conflict is supposed to come from different deities with different viewpoints, not no deity ever being able to achieve what they try in the way they want.

Hyperbole much?

Nothing about the Ages system prevents a god from carrying out their goals/plans however they want, it just encourages them to continue acting on/with their chosen race/nation/organization/type of cheese.

For example: Each god at the end of an age recieves bidding points (BP) equal to the amount of AP they spent during the previous age.

Scenario 1: God A has control and wants to maintain control over Race A. God A's player has 35 BP to spend, and bids 10 BP on Race A. Since nobody else bid or beat God A's bid for Race A, God A's player is free to decide what happens to Race A over the course of the event and until the end of the next age.

Scenario 2: Gods B and C are in a bidding war over Race B though. So they go back and forth a couple times until God C spends 15 BP on Race B, a bid which God B can't match. God C now has control over Race B and can act with them as he pleases. God B is probably upset over this, but he spent most of his BP trying to take or maintain control of a Legendary concept, he made his choices.

Scenario 3: Now that God C has control of Race B, he no longer has interest in keeping Race C. So God D bids on and wins Race C. God D decides to destroy Race C, which is something God C didn't want to happen. Once again, he chose not to bid on Race C, so he missed the opportunity to maintain control.

Scenario 4: God E's player hasn't posted since well before the end of the Age. His stuff goes up on auction, and Gods A, B, and C all bid on them, winning relics, races, nations, etc. Some are destroyed, some are altered, whatever. God E is gone, and his stuff continues on in new forms and new directions, keeping the game alive.

If you want to make something and say its yours, then work towards it. The rules don't make it impossible for you to accomplish your goals, they just provide a framework under which that is possible.

It's not godmodding when the rules tell you how the game is played. Nobody accuses the DM of Godmodding when he says that the Gnoll's attack roll of 20 beats the wizard's AC of 11. Those are the rules, they're how the game is played. This is no different.

Mynxae
2013-06-05, 12:01 AM
Hyperbole much?

Nothing about the Ages system prevents a god from carrying out their goals/plans however they want, it just encourages them to continue acting on/with their chosen race/nation/organization/type of cheese.

For example: Each god at the end of an age recieves bidding points (BP) equal to the amount of AP they spent during the previous age.

Scenario 1: God A has control and wants to maintain control over Race A. God A's player has 35 BP to spend, and bids 10 BP on Race A. Since nobody else bid or beat God A's bid for Race A, God A's player is free to decide what happens to Race A over the course of the event and until the end of the next age.

Scenario 2: Gods B and C are in a bidding war over Race B though. So they go back and forth a couple times until God C spends 15 BP on Race B, a bid which God B can't match. God C now has control over Race B and can act with them as he pleases. God B is probably upset over this, but he spent most of his BP trying to take or maintain control of a Legendary concept, he made his choices.

Scenario 3: Now that God C has control of Race B, he no longer has interest in keeping Race C. So God D bids on and wins Race C. God D decides to destroy Race C, which is something God C didn't want to happen. Once again, he chose not to bid on Race C, so he missed the opportunity to maintain control.

Scenario 4: God E's player hasn't posted since well before the end of the Age. His stuff goes up on auction, and Gods A, B, and C all bid on them, winning relics, races, nations, etc. Some are destroyed, some are altered, whatever. God E is gone, and his stuff continues on in new forms and new directions, keeping the game alive.

If you want to make something and say its yours, then work towards it. The rules don't make it impossible for you to accomplish your goals, they just provide a framework under which that is possible.

It's not godmodding when the rules tell you how the game is played. Nobody accuses the DM of Godmodding when he says that the Gnoll's attack roll of 20 beats the wizard's AC of 11. Those are the rules, they're how the game is played. This is no different.

Unless something's already changed in the rules, deities die after three weeks. Usually by then, they're considered free game. They have in the past anyhow. But this is a neat idea though, I would vote for this, as long as it's kept up story-wise for how a God suddenly becomes involves in something they may not have had anything much to do with in the first place.

Man on Fire
2013-06-05, 05:49 AM
I like this idea for an initial premise of a Lords of Creation game. We should maybe think about it for future use.
But I don't like the limitations on births. Yes, it's weird when a newborn gives birth and we should discourage that, but some gods like to have children, others do not. Some gods are best to spawn from nightmares or the Void or chaos, whereas others should originate from divine order. Anyway... It doesn't seem fair to leave people waiting for another person to apply just so they can be spawned.


As for the matter of Ages in general, I think we should use them in some games and not in others. After all... Most LoCs have some kind of initial premise based around the nature of the creator. And if people want an initial premise that brings about Ages, then so be it. But it shouldn't be part of the standard rules.
(We are trying to make a standardised version here? Right?)

As for discouraging newborn creating dieties, maybe we should set in rules that creating a spawn is avaliable only from Lesser Diety up? So new Fetchling doesn't give a birth suddenly.

As for Ages and applications, really the limitation of when gods can join came into the idea when it was combiend with themes, and even with them we could always go that gods can join any moment but must be of choosen theme of current age.

Anyway, I think we could add Ages and Themes as variant rules, for those who want them.

C'nor
2013-06-05, 07:16 AM
As possible variants, they're... acceptable. I don't like them, but that just means I don't have to use them.


Hyperbole much?

I was commenting on the general tone of his argument, not the specific Ages proposal...

On spawning:

Eh... That's not too bad a proposal, but I don't like tying it to divine rank. Seems a bit silly what with the potential for people to simply choose not to advance, y'know?

Mynxae
2013-06-05, 07:42 AM
On spawning:

Eh... That's not too bad a proposal, but I don't like tying it to divine rank. Seems a bit silly what with the potential for people to simply choose not to advance, y'know?

Perhaps make it that you have to have been playing for 2-4 weeks first before you can have a baby? :smalltongue:

C'nor
2013-06-05, 07:51 AM
Perhaps make it that you have to have been playing for 2-4 weeks first before you can have a baby? :smalltongue:

That would fit better, I think.

Of course, I dunno if we want to make it a set limit at all... Didn't I end up making you, for perfectly logical in-story reasons, less than that into my time in BW-ES? :smallconfused: It seems like it might fit better as one of the guidelines than a hard rule; that gives a bit more flexibility for telling cool stories while still acting as a check.