LOC (Lords of Creation) rule building

[mystic1110]

To those unfamiliar LOC (Lords of Creation) is a game played on these pbp forums. The game consists of players becoming gods, and then slowly making a whole world/setting around themselves.

The current rules have numerous problems and hopefully as a group we can correct them all.

PROPOSED RULES AS OF 5/29/2013:

Any ideas on these? Suggestions?

Character Creation

A Godly Name
ONE Domain from the Available list (choose what that domain gives you; 1) +2 to Attack; 2) +2 to defense; 3) 2d6 extra HP; OR 4) knowing when someone else is using an action tied to that specific domain
An associative portfolio
And a character description: include Alignment and goals here.

You start off with 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense, 10 HP plus whatever you choose with your additional domain.

Other Rules

You gain 2+X AP per rollover, where X is how many domains you have. 5 is the maximum number of domains you may have.

Rank Name| Weekly AP | Infusions| Required Domains
Fledgling Deity | 3 |1 |1
Lesser Deity | 4 |1 |2
Intermediate Deity | 5 | 2 |3
Greater Deity | 6 | 2 |4
Elder Deity| 7 | 3 | 5


Gods above Fledging may not access the material plane

You may only have 1 Shard per every 2 Domains you have.

you start with 15 AP

RCR


1) Players Start with 1d6 Attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP
2) Players start with 1 domain and may gain 4 more. Each domain adds +2 to attack or defense or +2d6 HP.
3) When players make artifacts the artifact may give +1 to attack or defense or +1d6 HP.
4) ALL COMBAT IS ENCOURAGE TO BE PLOTTED OUT OOC FIRST
5) Players must pay 2 AP to Initiate Combat.
6) Each rolls attack and defense
7) Each player subtracts from their attack roll their opponents defense roll.
8) Each player subtracts from their HP the result of their opponents roll from part 7.
9) Combat lasts till one god is reduced to 0 HP
10) You may aid another god by paying 1 AP, doing so adds +1 to their attack or defense.
11) The losing god IS NOT DEAD unless the losing player agrees to it
12) The Winning player may take up 1 free AP to use for a land action to display the result of the divine battle
13) The winning player mayimpose the following choices on the loser

1) Obey one comand from the winning god, as long as following that command does not involve spending more than 1 AP
2) Imprisionment is displayed with a free divine word action that reads "Losing God may not spend AP on anything but coutnering this divine word"
3) Maim the losing god permentantly. This is displayed by the losing god having a permenant -1 to attack OR a -1 to defense. And a free action crafting lost body part into a land or relic with a Cosmetic bonus.
4) Mercy (Nothing)

14) after divine combat both players HP is returned to 10 if they were below 10 (plus any artifact bonuses - domain HP bonuese don't return)
15) If their is no winner after 3 rounds of dice rolling - the divine battle is declared to be a draw. More AP must be spent in order to continue battle otherwise you acknoledge your opponent as a worthy rival. Both players may at this point agree not to spend more ap on the RCR and instead collectively make a free 1 AP mold land action to display the effects of their battle to a draw.
16) If you win 2 divine combats in a row - you must wait till the next rollover to initiate more combat (with that specific god). You're god basically has great disdain for your week opponent. As a reward for winning twice you gain 1 AP. The loser may not spend AP to attack you after losing twice in a row


Pantheons

When you a born into the game - you automatically join a pantheon between your progenitor and yourself, unless your progenitor is already part of a pantheon and in that case you will join that pantheon. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time.

The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader.

Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon. A god is never forced to use AP to fulfill an order.

But being a leader brings it's own responsibilities. The leader of any pantheon must obey these rule:


Pantheon leader cannot openly act against the good of the pantheon. If he does, the strongest member may challenge him for the crown. Strongest is Highest Rank. If more than one player is tied for highest rank it is the one with highest AP. A challenge is not an RCR challenge but a democratic vote between the pantheon members. The challenger and challengee do not get to vote (meaning that an effective change of command can only work in a pantheon with 3 or more members). This also means unpopular pantheon leaders can be displaced. The ousted leader will become a regular member of the pantheon.
Good of the pantheon is OBJECTIVE. Thus when you create a pantheon you must state a Pantheon GOAL. This rule does not apply to the automatically generated pantheons of family members. In that case GOOD is simply defending each other from non-family members.
Pantheon leader must defend members of his pantheon against attacks of other gods (that he knows of), either by himself or by sending other members of the pantheon.



Create Pantheon: 1 AP
Join a pantheon: 1 AP
Subordinate your pantheon to another pantheon: 1 AP.


Societies

When you make a race - in the beginning they live spread out - in a loose tribal system as the default. Use the create Society action to begin to form social connections and a collective history. Once you are ready to have your race progress into groups of more than a village of a hundred use the Form nation action to collect your race into a country or even an empire. Once you have a nation set up you may create guilds, religious groups or secret societies within with the form organization action.

Now all empires and civilizations have their golden ages, and their falls.

During Rollover you must reuse the Form Organization action, or your organization dissolves.

You may form nations of other people’s races – a god never has complete control/ ownership over every single individual being of the race he or she creates. You may even form organizations in other nations.


1 AP Form Society
2 AP Create Nation
1 AP Form Organization


Land Actions

A big part of being a god is changing the landscape around you!


Alter Land 1 AP: Alter land allows a god to change already existing landscapes. It can be used to create mountain ranges, vast forests, lakes, swamps, or any other kind of "land type" you could think of. This includes razing and raising cities! Alter land can also be used to raise small chains of islands from the sea. These islands cannot be very big, but can be large enough to support a small kingdom. Think about the size of Hawaii. Alter land actions can also be used to change the layout of existing land, such changes can be the creation of the largest mountain in the world to the greatest forest.

Create Land 2 AP: allows a god to create land where there is none. It can be used to raise a small continent from the sea, or create large, floating islands in a plane where there is no planet. Land created by Create Land can be up to the size of Russia

Forge Astronomical Object 3AP: Use this action to create a celestial body such as a moon, planet, asteroid, or sun. If your astronomical object has special properties such as an empathic link to yourself, or can move contrary to the rules of gravity and physics – it is a Relic NOT an Astronomical Object

Form Nexus 1AP: You may create a location of mystic and divine energy connected to a preexisting sanctum your god control/owns. A nexus may be a building, a door, a portion of a forest, a specific cave, but must be a specific location – it cannot be “the ocean.” Promoting mortals to higher rank of mortal can only occur in a Nexus.

Weave Sanctum 2 AP: You may create a location of divinity attuned to your god. This location may be anywhere not on the material plane. Your seat of power may be a layer of a plane, or a simple foreboding castle. Gods may only enter another God’s sanctum if they have permission or initiated combat.

Imagine Plane 5AP : Imagine Plane allows a god to create the fabric of their own reality. Planes are entire dimensions apart from the normal world, and can take any form a god can imagine. Hell, Heaven, or Limbo, are examples of planes. When weaving a plane, the creating god must decide on any special features it has, such as accelerated time, or empowered magic. A god may also decide how many layers there are initially. This can vary from one, to thousands, though most planes have less than three. Unlike a sanctum a god gets no special benefit for being within his or her own realm or plane. Your god does not "own" a plane he made - in fact other gods creating and living in a plane you made is encouraged!!


Relics and Artifacts:

Relics are powerful items that would destroy any mortal who is not a Legend, if they tried to use one. Only gods have the force of will to wield a Relic; while the reverse is true for Artifacts: An artifact is a powerful item or tool. They are imbued with power beyond that of most mortal's imagining. Artifacts can do many things, from resurrecting the dead, to causing small earthquakes. Artifacts are the tools of Mighty Heroes. Gods cannot wield artifacts; the sheer force of divine power would crush an artifact within seconds.

Relics when they are made can only do 1 of two things:

Grant a cosmetic bonus for roleplaying effect
OR grant +1 to attack; OR +1 to defense; or +1d6 to HP

You may only create 2 non-cosmetic relics per each domain you have (maximum is thus 10)

Artifacts may only grant cosmetic bonuses


Relics are 2 AP
Artifacts are 1 AP


Infusions

Infusions are the vestiges of your divine spark. You have 1 infusion available when the game starts and you gain 1 more infusion when you gain 3 domains, and a third and final infusion when you gain 5 domains.

With the expenditure of an infusion you may:


5 AP Unfold Divinity: Your powers as a god increase as you flower into a form closer to your true divinity. From now on you will gain 1 extra AP per rollover for each time you used Unfold Divinity.

5 AP Break the Chains: You struggle to break the bars that keep you from the mortal plane. With this action you may ignore the rule forbidding gods above fledging from accessing the mortal world.

5 AP Divine Decree: While Divine Omens can affect a person and a divine word can affect a small nation the divine decree affects Everything Everywhere! The divine decree simply states a new constant of the universe; be that all life is immortal; that souls are real; the gravity does not exist; or even that everything is now yellow. Divine decrees can be countered with a divine word action or a divine omen action: but that action still only affects the usual area. So while divine decree can make everything feel love, a god can make the people of a small nation incapable of love through word, or a single person in capable of love through an omen


Omens and Words.

Omens and Words are the will of the gods made manifest. They can range from a golden age for an empire, or to increase the mortal population. The population that finds themselves under the pleasure of a god will find their crops prosperous and their ways smoothed, as the subtle magic of the god is worked in their favor, The population that finds themselves under the curse of a god will find their crops barren and their land blighted, as the subtle magic of the god works against them.

The important thing to remember is to try to keep Omen and Words subtle – the ocassional overt action of a god is impressive but it gets boring quickly – make blesses and curses much much more than: “everyone is super strong now” – instead go for blesses like “I impart the wisdom of martial training and harsh conditions to my people – over the years they become stronger, more durable – their children fit for survival in my vision of the world”

The difference between Omens and Words is the area of their effects:


Divine Omen 1 AP: From a single person to an average-sized town's worth of people. A section of an army. An exceedingly sparsely populated area.

Divine Word 3 AP: Anywhere from a large city's worth of people. A small army in its entirety. A rural, but settled are to a large nation or kingdom, and all within it, including settlements of any size. Anyone matching a SPECIFIC descriptor (I.e., Arcane Spellcasters, Commoners, those who worship a certain god)

Anything broader than a word would require a Divine Decree and the use of an Infusion.


Blesses and Curses can be countered by other gods, however. Each time it is countered, it becomes harder and harder for the gods to exert their will over each other. An omen only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

Do not treat “curse wars” like this:

1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
3 AP: Recreate super healing plants.
4 AP: Kill all super healing plants.
5 AP: Recreate super healing plants.


Treat them Like this:


1 AP: Make super healing plants.
2 AP: Super healing plants are struck with a disease like real world plants and large cluster of them die because of lack of genetic diversity, now they only exists but far spread out, rarer and never in large clumps.
3 AP: Super healing plants emit an aura that make them easy to find.
4 AP: Plant poisonous plants around the world that emit the same aura, look the same and kill instantly, so a person looking for these plants will have to journey towards them but will never know if they will die or survive at the end of the journey.
5 AP: Create spirit guides that aren't an actual species but a manifestation of that super healing plant's benevolence, and like the will o' wisps in "Brave" they lead people away from the poisonous plants.


Heroes and Legends

What are myths without heroes? You may create a mortal to work in your gods stead or even against yourself on the material plane.


1 AP Promote Leader: Leaders are more like bureaucrats to a hero’s warrior. They are important and powerful – but they aren’t what epics are written about. They can be spy masters, mob bosses, kings, guild leaders etc. They don’t grant any bonus, but you don’t need a nexus to promote them and you can have as many as you like.
3 AP Raise Hero: You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. You may only have 1 Hero per organization. A Hero grants +1 AP at rollover (This AP can be used to pay for the organization’s upkeep – when the organization falls, your hero loses this 1 AP bonus). The trick is to expend this extra AP in a way to enhance the Hero’s stature – don’t just use the Hero to farm for more AP – try to tell a story with the hero. Make us care.
3 AP Create Legend: You may create a legend out of a hero. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. The only other restriction is that a hero must have existed for at least 2 rollovers to become eligible to becoming raised to a legend – you can also create a legend out of a leader but only provided that the leader has existed for at least 4 rollovers! A legend is basically a demi god. In fact Legends count as fledging gods that may not use a gain domain action. (they have 1d6 attack, 1d6 defense and 10 HP!) They gain 2 AP each rollover. You may only have 1 Legend at any one time. Legends dont have domains so they make or recieve non-cosmetic artifacts!


Life

Life is defined here as anything animate that can act of its own, or a god's will. Humans, Golems, and Undead, all fall under this category.


Mundane Life 1 AP: You create non-Sentient Animals (bugs, germs, gerbils) (you may use this action for free any amount of times when you use a create land action or an alter land action.)
Monstrous life 1 AP: non-sentient monsters Giant Spiders, Dire Animals, Purple Worms, or hell, Dinosaurs. You can't use an alter land action/create land action and make monstrous life. So while you can use alter land to make a land full of honey and bees without a mundane life action, you can't make Jurassic park with dinosaurs with just an alter or create land action.
Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life
Create magical life 3 AP: If the sentient life you create has any innate OR APTITUDE for magical abilities simply by existing then use this action instead. (I.E. elves)
Fabled life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Giants, Vampires, Fey, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings.



Create Concept


-Mundane 1AP: Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts.
- Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts.
- Magical 3 AP: Magical Concepts are ways of using power that allow the wielder to accomplish great things. Pyromancy, Necromancy, Abjuration, Healing these are all Magical concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.[
-Legendary 5 AP: Like Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are far from mundane. However, unlike Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are more than ways to use power. They are power itself. Arcane Magic, or Divine Magic, Immortal Souls, Afterlife are examples of Legendary Concepts. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing. ALL MODERN/SCIFI CONCEPTS ARE LEGENDARY.


Gain Domain


4 AP Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 16 AP worth of AP since the last time they used this action.

[Preaplanes]

Eh, I'm iffy on the "one infusion ever" thing. Yes, we have too many, but if people want to interact with the world, they're just going to immediately burn it on a Break the Chains action. You said it yourself; it's easy to make an island filled with all sorts of goodies, but you can't expect others to visit you.


I'd make it so that Break the Chains actions can't be done until a higher level or something if you want the gods to emphasize their planes.



If you do limit infusions, I'd grandfather in that pre-existing Gods can have 1 last infusion (if they haven't used them all) so that any plans they had aren't totally screwed.

Perhaps it would be simplest to limit infusions gained to "one at intermediate, one at greater, and one at elder." That way you don't have low-ranking gods spamming world-changing abilities, but you still get a handful of powerful abilities for powerful gods.

[mystic1110]

Preaplanes nothing in this thread will be applied to the current game - this rule building will be used to improve the next LoC

[Preaplanes]

Preaplanes nothing in this thread will be applied to the current game - this rule building will be used to improve the next LoC

Ah, then everything I said, EXCEPT grandfathering.

I also wrote a suggestion earlier.


Maybe instead of this optimization-type system, we could do a choice based one.

At Fledgling, Intermediate, and Elder, choose one of three different bonuses. Each bonus is fairly specific, but allowed to be customized to your deity's nature, and generally do the same thing.

Fledgling would affect how your deity interacts with the world, giving bonuses to creating/changing/interacting with races or establishing lands or developing a few technologies.

Intermediate would be the tier where you're offered the ability to remove some of your god's limiters. Maybe the ability to split into three parts and RP from each spot, or if Gods' true images burn their followers' eyes out like an Angel from Supernatural, they no longer do so, or if their power would make their presence obvious and stealth against other gods impossible, making it so that they can't be detected.

Elder would be the big world-changers. Decrees, Monuments, and some other third thing.


Just a thought. :smallsmile:

For the third thing in Tier 3, Shrines, perhaps? Not sure how they'd work, but it would be more based around mortals being blessed for worshiping your deity. Perhaps as a buff that fits your god's theme, or a ward that protects your subjects from opposing forces and ideals.

A Time god's subjects may become immortal, or a City god may make it so that nature can never reclaim the land nearby.



I've also noticed the Cosmic Decree action can be a little... much. With one decree, you can mess with another god's entire theme. A Nature god saying that Nature always wins in the end would really rustle a City god's jimmies, or an Eternity god would be hosed by a decree that all things come to an end (right, Arc? :smallannoyed:)

The Cosmic Decree should be more limited in scope to what and whom it can affect. Yes, it adds a universal law, but those laws are just too powerful and have too much potential to screw other players.

[Betrayer]

Also, as a clarity thing, it might be a good idea to clear up create life and create concepts - specifically that they all count as different actions for the purposes of reducing AP.

Now just throwing stuff at the wall, to see if it sticks:

- All AP reducing actions should be discussed OOC, and should be encouraged to have thematic limitations. For example, you might make a forge that reduces Artifacts and Relics by -2 each, but it will only work on military relics and artifacts, as its a forge, not an artisan's workshop (which might do the opposite). Or a bag of wonders, that reduces the cost of advanced concepts by 1, but only if they are a physical object that can be produced from the bag (or very closely linked to one), so: Archery - fine, produce a bow; explosives - fine, pull out a bomb; discipline - nope; warships - nope (won't come out of a bag). Then those limitations should have to be approved OOC, and could thereby balance more powerful reductions (like advanced concepts).

- Reduce Infusions to 1 or 2, but then add extra uses for them, improve the less powerful uses and/or make more central the power of monuments (i.e. special abilities rather than just generic RCR bonuses/cost reduction) - they should be the sort of places that the main plot of the world hinges around, not just the tools of the gods. The combination of this should then leave players split between choosing what to do with them, giving a different feel to different gods.

- Add an extra tier to the society/order chain, and make them all more expensive. For example:
Form Society (2AP) Creates a culture who self identify as similar, compared with outsiders, but are not united or organised.
Establish Nation (3/4 AP) Creates a country who are organised, with a government, army, legal system etc.
Found Order (5AP) Creates an elite group, dedicated to some goal or common cause.

[Emperor Demonking]

I don't see the value of AP-reducing actions. They seem to me to encourage the gaming of the system. Also, if the point of AP is to control the growth of the world's variety then the introduction of relics and monuments play havoc with that control. I do like Betrayer's idea though, so maybe an insistence of strong thematic limitations; so if you spend 5 AP on a relic you're only likely to be able to find 5 places to immediately use it, for example.

I also like Betrayer's four tier society AP but if you're increasing the costs of orders then I'd also add:
Create Group (1 AP): Create a thematic group that are important to a given society or nation. This action can performed for free three times with a Form Society action and an unlimited amount of times with an Establish Nation action.

[Preaplanes]

If we're making it so that a character gets barred from the Prime Material for a significant time upon reaching Intermediate, I'd suggest adding a few default Planes to start off so that people have a vested interest in a plane that isn't theirs. That way it encourages interaction.

We could simply use some major D&D planes (Elysium, Mechanus, Limbo, Astral, Outlands, and Hades would be swell IMO, maybe add Celestia, Baator, Arborea, and the Abyss if we feel the extreme alignments need a place to hang).

Doing this we could have characters with the motivation to be the Lord of Hell, or the benevolent guardian of Heaven, or the Great Balancer, or something along those lines.

These would be the big planes, the ones people would fight over, immune to Alter Land actions and the like, though Monuments would be able to be built on them so long as they fit within the plane's alignment (I doubt a hellforge would do well in Elysium).

[mystic1110]

BIG NO for the pre-made planes - point of LOC is to encourage creativity! It actually always upset me whenever people make boring stereotypical planes like Hell, Limbo, Astral Plane and Heaven. I liked the original planes like a M.C. Escher maze of Gold - the plane of greed. Or a shadow plane made entirely of caverns within caverns. And a plane that is an endless emerald city as far as the eye could see. Additionally LOC is not D&D - I want some non D&D planes created. Hell I would even prefer people to stop using D&D spells or thoughts - instead of saying "Fireball" I would vastly prefer a sentence or two of the god drawing power into himself and releasing heat in the shape of a sphere - basically I would like more imagery. I think tying LOC into D&D takes a lot of that away.

I always wanted to encourage more Plane building.

AP reductions didn't always exist in this game - but they were added to make artifacts/relics DO STUFF that wasn't combat.

That said I really like the increasing society stuff. that way a god makes a race - makes a primitive society first and then slowly builds upon that.

Another limitation that might be added would be ONE AP action per post?

[Man on Fire]

I played great Lords of Creation game on other forum, based on original rules. And I'll talk fro mthat, as I have one suggestion, pardon me if that was cleared up with the errata or later rules additions:

Ban creating artifacts or any other forms of creation that would globally change the rules of gameplay for other players or at least make suggestion in rules to don't do that. What I meant is that in our game we had one guy create artifact that make it harder for everybody to advance to higher ranks. It caused @#$%storm that ended with gamemaster declaring that from that point every single artifact had to be pended earlier and wait seven days without any obijection from other players.

[mystic1110]

The general Idea is that ALL artifact must be vetted first - but in practice no one follows that. Your suggestion that instead of the GM making that decision and that the artifact must be posted OoC first and not objected to in X amount of days is a good one.

[Preaplanes]

BIG NO for the pre-made planes - point of LOC is to encourage creativity! It actually always upset me whenever people make boring stereotypical planes like Hell, Limbo, Astral Plane and Heaven. I liked the original planes like a M.C. Escher maze of Gold - the plane of greed. Or a shadow plane made entirely of caverns within caverns. And a plane that is an endless emerald city as far as the eye could see. Additionally LOC is not D&D - I want some non D&D planes created. Hell I would even prefer people to stop using D&D spells or thoughts - instead of saying "Fireball" I would vastly prefer a sentence or two of the god drawing power into himself and releasing heat in the shape of a sphere - basically I would like more imagery. I think tying LOC into D&D takes a lot of that away.

I always wanted to encourage more Plane building.

AP reductions didn't always exist in this game - but they were added to make artifacts/relics DO STUFF that wasn't combat.

That said I really like the increasing society stuff. that way a god makes a race - makes a primitive society first and then slowly builds upon that.

Another limitation that might be added would be ONE AP action per post?

The problem I've noticed, though, is that we've got all sorts of nice planes... but nobody to give a damn about any they didn't make themselves. Nobody has any motivation to interact with another god's plane.

[mystic1110]

True. How bout a clarification in the rules that you can do whatever you want in another god's plane - just not in a gods sanctum. Then also limit sanctums to non-material planes - forcing people to use the nexus action on the material plane. Then change the rule for the nexus action by giving gods some sort of privilege on their nexus but make it a requirement to have a sanctum first.

------

Also some other things on my mind. People have a tendency to make intelligent life - before PLANTS, SUN, WARMTH, ATMOSPHERE, or even LAND.

Any way to make a logical limitation on that?

------

Additionally as has been brought up - the RCR system needs alot of work. even though it should be the last resort- it should make a lot more sense power wise. Any advice there?

[rweird]

Maybe for reductions, not a straight out ban but costs an additional # of AP reduced by other things so far AP to make (for example, if someone makes a relic giving -1 to create magical concept and a monument that gives -2, the monument would cost 8 AP, and if someone else wants to make a relic, then it'd cost 7 AP for -1 to Create Magical Concept).

I dislike the idea of only one infusion ever, maybe 1/2 divine rank rounded up so fledgling and lesser have 1, intermediate and greater have 2, while Elder has 3 (or round down so you have to be lesser to make an infusion).

maybe making it so only half (rounded down, minimum of 1) of your infusions can be for Break the Chains/Relics/Monuments while the other half have to be for Divine Infusion.

I'd support bumping Break the Chains and Cosmic Decree up to 7 AP, maybe more for Cosmic Decree.

A question for Domains and Portfolios, can you have the same portfolio from a different domain, for example, on deity having the Domain War (Conquest) and another Domination (Conquest)? Would that be allowed under the rules? If not, should it be allowed? I think it should to a point, for example, someone with the domain Baator (Creatures), and another with Plant (Creatures) should be allowed because plant creatures are completely different from Devils.

[ShadowFireLance]

The Problem with 1 AP action per post is going to lead to a lot of Large posts broken up into many smaller ones.
So Essentially doing nothing, and if something like that ends up happening, it would be a LoC that I would not want to play.

Thoughts on other things:

Relics/Monuments:
Alright, Herin is where the point lies; I liked the Abilities of LoC rule set 2, Which gave a reason WHY they where able to make stuff like that, at a lesser cost.
Relics/Monuments to me, are a Waste of AP, Unless used for combat, they may be a part of LoC, but...They seem like something you would expect MORTALs to create for a god, not a god create for themselves.

Just some thoughts.

[rweird]

It isn't 1 AP action/post, it was 1 FREE action (from cost reductions)/post for Flux because he was going overboard with it.

[mystic1110]

I also really liked the abilities of the rule set 2: and I worked pretty hard on coming up with them. I don't know why people decided to not have them anymore: although I would love to bring them back - maybe replace monuments with them. I would add that no two gods may have the same ability?

[Emperor Demonking]

Another limitation that might be added would be ONE AP action per post?

Strongly encouraging I'd be fine with, but I wouldn't want to ban more than one action per post because sometimes a god may want to do more that one thing at the exact same time e.g. if I wanted Orcs and Elves to both be the first intelligent creatures in the world then changing the rule would make that impossible since I would have to do one after the other.



Also some other things on my mind. People have a tendency to make intelligent life - before PLANTS, SUN, WARMTH, ATMOSPHERE, or even LAND.

Any way to make a logical limitation on that?

I think the mod just has to remind people not to do it when posting the IC thread.

[Grinner]

BIG NO for the pre-made planes - point of LOC is to encourage creativity! It actually always upset me whenever people make boring stereotypical planes like Hell, Limbo, Astral Plane and Heaven. I liked the original planes like a M.C. Escher maze of Gold - the plane of greed. Or a shadow plane made entirely of caverns within caverns. And a plane that is an endless emerald city as far as the eye could see. Additionally LOC is not D&D - I want some non D&D planes created. Hell I would even prefer people to stop using D&D spells or thoughts - instead of saying "Fireball" I would vastly prefer a sentence or two of the god drawing power into himself and releasing heat in the shape of a sphere - basically I would like more imagery. I think tying LOC into D&D takes a lot of that away.

For starters, you could start encouraging that by stripping the game of D&D influences. The first thing a player looks at when they start playing an RPG is the character sheet. Now, when they're asked to assign their character a D&D-style alignment and Domains, it's far too easy to fall into the mindset of D&D.

[ShadowFireLance]

I also really liked the abilities of the rule set 2: and I worked pretty hard on coming up with them. I don't know why people decided to not have them anymore: although I would love to bring them back - maybe replace monuments with them. I would add that no two gods may have the same ability?

..That would lead to Fights, big time.
Because, What if you have two gods, one Elemental, One Dragon (Inferndyim and Rweird's god) And they both want Elemental (Fire) Ability?

I can understand if only thematic appropriate stuff was allowed, but where do you draw the line at?

[mystic1110]

True enough.

The original system - before even the the original rule set! was that you have to spend 2 AP per sphere - and a sphere was just an area of influence. And then you can spend 3 AP per domain for each 2 spheres you have. making it cost 7 AP per domain. At the same time that means you can exclusively spend AP to power up and nothing else.

[Preaplanes]

For starters, you could start encouraging that by stripping the game of D&D influences. The first thing a player looks at when they start playing an RPG is the character sheet. Now, when they're asked to assign their character a D&D-style alignment and Domains, it's far too easy to fall into the mindset of D&D.

You're posting on a heavily D&D themed board, with the world's most popular D&D based comic at the center, with D&D enthusiasts everywhere.

I really doubt you can remove that influence so easily.

Maybe you could insist that Gods never call their attacks OOTS-style, at least not by D&D names, but mortals do.

[Grinner]

You're posting on a heavily D&D themed board, with the world's most popular D&D based comic at the center, with D&D enthusiasts everywhere.

I really doubt you can remove that influence so easily.

I can try. :smalltongue:

[mystic1110]

Maybe you could insist that Gods never call their attacks OOTS-style, at least not by D&D names, but mortals do.

Outside you - I don't think a player ever had a god or a mortal call out their attacks. It's usually been described - either beautifully or terribly.

Anyway - to make this rule fixing more ordered and structured.

Start your post with a suggestion - and number it. (Right now were at 6 - look at the OP)

Then name a previous number and your thoughts on it?

That way we have concrete suggestions instead of random ideas?

(Also FYI, I'm not in charge of this - this is a group effort where all opinions are equal - so if you guys think one my suggestions is bad, it probably won't win, and if I think something is bad but no one else does then in it goes)

[Emperor Demonking]

1, 4: Yes
3, 5: See 7

7. My preference for modifying relics (and I do think they should be kept) would be that they should be greatly limited in scope; rather than making it cheaper to create concepts it should be cheaper to produce concepts related to e.g. fashion. I don't think exclusivity or free-prevention are good; they're patches rather than something we want.

[NichG]

Disclaimer: I've never played LOC, so this is pure game design theory rather than experience talking.

If you want to get people to be interested in eachothers' planes, make it so some benefit is derived from interacting with them. Have a plane provide some benefit to its creator AND anyone who visits there. Require some interacts with the mortal world to require magical sites that must be created within a plane - you don't just look down on the world, you use a scrying pool; its expensive to make, so you either make your own or use a friend's. Perhaps you can always look down at the present, but to see an individual's future you need the pool (and by see, I mean 'write into fate' and create a destiny for).

Have it be so you can make an alliance between deities such that they all draw certain persistent benefits from eachothers' planes, so if one comes under attack everyone in the alliance will move to defend. Have it be so that things in the various planes can be imported to the mortal world to act in a god's stead - if there are useful creatures, a god may decide to go hunting on the plane created by another deity in order to steal, tame, and employ those creatures. Since its a whole plane, its probably not something that can be actively policed in a way that would block a determined god all the time, and it should be encouraged to be 'full of holes' like that unless the owner actively spends points to seal it that week.

[ShadowFireLance]

Disclaimer: I've never played LOC, so this is pure game design theory rather than experience talking.

8.
If you want to get people to be interested in eachothers' planes, make it so some benefit is derived from interacting with them. Have a plane provide some benefit to its creator AND anyone who visits there. Require some interacts with the mortal world to require magical sites that must be created within a plane - you don't just look down on the world, you use a scrying pool; its expensive to make, so you either make your own or use a friend's. Perhaps you can always look down at the present, but to see an individual's future you need the pool (and by see, I mean 'write into fate' and create a destiny for).

Have it be so you can make an alliance between deities such that they all draw certain persistent benefits from eachothers' planes, so if one comes under attack everyone in the alliance will move to defend. Have it be so that things in the various planes can be imported to the mortal world to act in a god's stead - if there are useful creatures, a god may decide to go hunting on the plane created by another deity in order to steal, tame, and employ those creatures. Since its a whole plane, its probably not something that can be actively policed in a way that would block a determined god all the time, and it should be encouraged to be 'full of holes' like that unless the owner actively spends points to seal it that week.

9. Begin doing 8 By Perhaps making it that you can only gain Ap reductions on your Own plane?

Also, this is a double edged sword, where every deity has their own special planes, and no one does anything on anyone else's.

[rweird]

9. Begin doing 8 By Perhaps making it that you can only gain Ap reductions on your Own plane?

Also, this is a double edged sword, where every deity has their own special planes, and no one does anything on anyone else's.

That wouldn't help fully, it'd encourage people to make planes, though invading someone else's gives no advantage.

[mystic1110]

In response to 8: Maybe only allow AP reduction from relics/monuments on other planes. ?

[ShadowFireLance]

That wouldn't help fully, it'd encourage people to make planes, though invading someone else's gives no advantage.

But taking over a different plane should do something like give you their bonuses?

[mystic1110]

I don't think encouraging interplanar warfare is a good thing - instead I think the ideal would be that players create interesting planes - a gods make homes on those planes since - well they are so much better than the material world.

Only very specific nature/mortal gods should care about the material world at all - outside some gods acting INDIRECTLY to protect a favored race/hero. Hell even for tech and magic gods - would make more sense to live on other planes - and only INDIRECTLY spread their tech/magic to the material plane.

Basically - my ideal - is a lot more INDIRECT activities.

Instead of a god controlling a city the god makes heroes and a church to run the city.

Instead of the god punishing a heretic the god makes a monster (dragon/titan) to attack the heretic.

Etc. . .

[rweird]

But taking over a different plane should do something like give you their bonuses?

Hmm, I agree with Mystic, though you'd also have to take the relics for the reductions anyhow.

I agree with the indirect thing, though that would cost more AP to do.

[ShadowFireLance]

I...actually think I like that a lot Mystic...That sounds awesome.

[mystic1110]

To encourage more planar construction and indirect control of the material plane what about suggestion 6 PLUS that everyone above feldging can no longer stay on the material plane.

Then add to that the reduction artifacts can only be used on other planes; that sanctums can only be built on other planes; that nexus of power can only be created if they are linked to a sanctum you control, and that leaders can only be promoted to heroes or above in a nexus?

Basically - this might even encourage construction of multiple planes BEFORE anything is even done on the material world. Which again would make sense. As then the construction of heaven/hell/afterlife/reward/punishment would be made BEFORE mortals.

[rweird]

Interesting idea, trying a LoC game like that would be interesting.

[Emperor Demonking]

To encourage more planar construction and indirect control of the material plane what about suggestion 6 PLUS that everyone above feldging can no longer stay on the material plane.

Then add to that the reduction artifacts can only be used on other planes; that sanctums can only be built on other planes; that nexus of power can only be created if they are linked to a sanctum you control, and that leaders can only be promoted to heroes or above in a nexus?

Basically - this might even encourage construction of multiple planes BEFORE anything is even done on the material world. Which again would make sense. As then the construction of heaven/hell/afterlife/reward/punishment would be made BEFORE mortals.

They make sense.
10. However as sanctums become more of a requirement, I think they should probably be made cheaper so its more equal.

[ArcturusV]

Okay, thoughts.

1) I agree with trying to get away from DnD stuff a little bit more. I've been trying to do that myself. So for that reason I think cribbing anything from DnD as a "standard template" that will always exist in game would be a little... eh. I think it encourages a certain level of laziness. Not that laziness is bad (Hard work often pays off later, laziness always pays off now!) in and of itself. But it's an excuse not to think as much. If that makes any sense. Rather than really stretching what your god might do, think, act, or value, you just go "DnD example".

So a good reason not to have pre-existing planes based on DnD. Though having another plane pre-existing would be nice. This would avoid the effective "AP Tax" on ascending to Intermediate to create a plane, or Infusion and AP tax to Break the Chains.

I'd suggest something like "The Infinite Expanse", a realm of void without shape or distinction. The Infinite Expanse is a realm separate from the Mortal Realm. Beings of sufficient power (Intermediates+) can use their will to shape the Infinite Expanse temporarily, creating objects and definition within the Realm. However this is temporary, and over time the creations will fade back into the void. Even a powerful god would have to spend almost all their time and power to maintain a semi-permanent location upon the Infinite Expanse. It is impossible to build indestructible/permanent objects upon the Infinite Expanse (No relics, monuments, etc).

Blank, it exists, it's a place. People can do things with it. But it's "unusable" enough that people will be inspired to move on (hopefully) and eventually Break Chains or Create Plane.

To add in a rule to make the Planes and Cosmology a bit more interesting, a simple rule to add might be:

"All planes must connect to at least one other plane, the mortal realm does not count as a plane for this purpose."

This way you get a sense of relative space and direction as people build it up. Planes become "Neighbors", maybe it's piss easy to travel between them. It gives people a reason to interact. Heck, it gives enemy gods a reason to possibly interact with the one "neutral" plane in between them. First plane created would obviously have to connect to The Infinite Expanse.

Honestly, the AP reduction thing is kinda ricockulous. I know I mentioned it early on in the OOC of the last game. And I decided that it was entirely too damned cheesy. Plus the "Rapid Advancement" it would allow didn't fit the character of the God I was playing.

I'd probably suggest altering that rule. Say something like "There are no AP reductions. If you wish, you may make a Relic inspire the mortal people benefiting from it, so that they get the effect of 3 Mundane, 2 Advanced, or 1 Magical/Legendary Concept, for free when possessing control of the Relic. This concept(s) must be set at the time of the Relic's creation. This concept(s) may be altered by use of the Alter Relic Action.

Monuments may be created to inspire people, and give them free concepts similar to Relics. Monuments being more powerful allow you to add 15 AP of Free Concepts in any combination of Mundane, Advanced, Magical, or Legendary. Unlike a Relic, these concepts may not be later changed."

I mean, one thing I've seen? The AP reduction is insanely cheesy. Particularly since RCR is a "Last Resort" and players use various levels of advancement to argue who should win. When you're tossing out stuff for free, at will... it just gets silly then. It's basically a question of "Who is being cheesier?" at that point or "Who just posted and added 15 free concepts that apply to this situation?"

Just having them grant concepts, and a limited number? That means we can do the same general effect. Spending AP to create more AP, though admittedly in a vulnerable form that another God may take from you. But it also means that you can't say "Oh, AP-3 Relic. ALL THE ADVANCED CONCEPTS IN A SINGLE POST!" as such is happening now. If a player wanted to create a buttload of Relics to add concepts? They're still spending AP, and a lot more than players currently are, on Concepts. Plus more relics means more doodads which means more interesting widgets.

Instead of every player basically having a non-descript relic which does the exact same thing as it's an arms race in the current game to see who can get the most free concepts (Between mortals that is) right now.

[mystic1110]

You're right the AP reduction started as a solution and by this point its a problem.

Your solution:


Say something like "There are no AP reductions. If you wish, you may make a Relic inspire the mortal people benefiting from it, so that they get the effect of 3 Mundane, 2 Advanced, or 1 Magical/Legendary Concept, for free when possessing control of the Relic. This concept(s) must be set at the time of the Relic's creation. This concept(s) may be altered by use of the Alter Relic Action.

Sounds great actually!

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh hey mystic, I was just thinking about doing one of these. I haven't been doing much with LOC games because they frustrate me a lot, and I think I've fairly well narrowed down why:

1) The rules and social conventions of the game completely neuter a significant number of character concepts.

Specifically gods of War, Murder, Tyranny and almost all other "evil" gods. Since destroying someone else's toys is A. Expensive (more than the cost to create) and B. frowned upon by the group, it makes the evil gods effectively useless. Gods of Magic might as well not even apply since they'll never get enough people on board to make their magic anything special.

2) Gods are both too powerful and not powerful enough.

Gods can create just about anything with a modicum of effort, are capable of making grandiose changes to the world, running entire countries and basically doing whatever... BUT they never make any noticeable change on the world. Their countries borders don't change, their heroes never decisively win anything, and in a lot of cases they can't even embody the concepts they claim to represent (I'm looking at you Knowledge, Time, Magic Domains).

3) Universal concepts are difficult to create and impossible to enforce

The main reason that Gods of Magic should just never exist. I can create magic, and spread it to everyone everywhere for 6 or 7 AP (legendary concept + bless to share the knowledge) and then nobody will touch it. More than likely what will happen is that someone will just make a different kind of magic because they don't want to/can't be bothered to/I didn't explain well enough how to use my magic. Thus, any plans I had for the use of magic in the world falls apart, and any attempt to force people to use my magic system will result in MOD interjection at the least.

4) The importance of Mortals is minimized and using them is a pain in the butt

I get that this is a game about gods, but there's really no incentive to make mortals, or play with them at all. They're a hassle to manage, they can't do squat under the system, and they usually end up forgotten. Plus everyone has their own little pet race and going around recruiting new worshippers just kind of fails because of players' instinctive possessiveness.

5) There is no incentive to use/specialize in domains

If you look at the DnD pantheons, gods all have thematically similar domain lists (in fact they're far more limited in the number/kind of domains they can have than LOC gods) and actually derive real power from embodying those concepts. The LOC rules actually encourage the opposite, it's better to have a huge array of unrelated domains so that you can make the most of the reduced AP cost for domain powers. So what you usually end up with is a bunch of elder gods who all have a bunch of wild domains that don't seem to have much to do with each other.

It gets even worse though, because a God of Fire isn't even Immune to the concept he embodies! A God of Water can curse said God of Fire to feel the burning pain of his flames for all eternity and there isn't anything the God of Fire can do about it (well he can break the curse, but let's assume he's out of AP). The God of Fire might as well be the God of Chicken for all the mechanical/thematic benefit he gets for being the God of Fire.

6) The game gets crowded too quickly

The first 3 pages of an LOC game are where all the action happens. Everybody burns their 15 AP like its going out of style and suddenly you've got a lush, vibrant world full of new and interesting ideas. Then your second round of gods comes in and they spend all their AP creating their own concepts, but there's less focus on them because, well, there's already all this other stuff that has more going on with it. By the time the third generation of gods rolls around, they world is so crowded that they pretty much just create their own plane and go play in that sandbox by themselves. There's too much stuff.

7) I hate humans

I really dislike that I've never played an LOC game where somebody didn't make humans. In the 5 I've played, 3 of them had someone calling dibs on humans within the first page of the OOC. In one, it was the first freaking post!

Seriously, what's so special about humans? We get them already, there's no reason to bring them up, or treat them special, like its some kind of "reward" to be the god of humans. This is really just a personal thing though.

-----------------------------------------

In conclusion, the game gets too crowded with junk too quickly and there's no ability to wipe the slate clean (or at least part of it) so new people just have less and less free space to work in. Because of the way the rules and the culture of the game are, lots of very important and cool story concepts are difficult/impossible to pull off and the game gets static way too quickly.

Also, humans suck :smallamused:

[NichG]

Idea of the plane/mortal world dichotomy:

Events in the mortal realm influence the planes, events on the planes influence the mortal realm. They just do so in different ways.

Make it so that a plane is mandatory and part-and-parcel with the creation of a core idea or concept. Attacking the plane attacks the concept. Using the concept in divine workings means including the plane in those workings.

Now, the counter to that is, if a concept loses traction in the mortal world, its corresponding plane withers. Each concept declared isn't 'this will be important', its a bid saying 'I risk a portion of my power on the bet that this will be important, and if that bet fails I lose that bit of power/the expenditure was for naught'.

[ShadowFireLance]

Oh hey mystic, I was just thinking about doing one of these. I haven't been doing much with LOC games because they frustrate me a lot, and I think I've fairly well narrowed down why:

1) The rules and social conventions of the game completely neuter a significant number of character concepts.

Specifically gods of War, Murder, Tyranny and almost all other "evil" gods. Since destroying someone else's toys is A. Expensive (more than the cost to create) and B. frowned upon by the group, it makes the evil gods effectively useless. Gods of Magic might as well not even apply since they'll never get enough people on board to make their magic anything special.

2) Gods are both too powerful and not powerful enough.

Gods can create just about anything with a modicum of effort, are capable of making grandiose changes to the world, running entire countries and basically doing whatever... BUT they never make any noticeable change on the world. Their countries borders don't change, their heroes never decisively win anything, and in a lot of cases they can't even embody the concepts they claim to represent (I'm looking at you Knowledge, Time, Magic Domains).

3) Universal concepts are difficult to create and impossible to enforce

The main reason that Gods of Magic should just never exist. I can create magic, and spread it to everyone everywhere for 6 or 7 AP (legendary concept + bless to share the knowledge) and then nobody will touch it. More than likely what will happen is that someone will just make a different kind of magic because they don't want to/can't be bothered to/I didn't explain well enough how to use my magic. Thus, any plans I had for the use of magic in the world falls apart, and any attempt to force people to use my magic system will result in MOD interjection at the least.

4) The importance of Mortals is minimized and using them is a pain in the butt

I get that this is a game about gods, but there's really no incentive to make mortals, or play with them at all. They're a hassle to manage, they can't do squat under the system, and they usually end up forgotten. Plus everyone has their own little pet race and going around recruiting new worshippers just kind of fails because of players' instinctive possessiveness.

5) There is no incentive to use/specialize in domains

If you look at the DnD pantheons, gods all have thematically similar domain lists (in fact they're far more limited in the number/kind of domains they can have than LOC gods) and actually derive real power from embodying those concepts. The LOC rules actually encourage the opposite, it's better to have a huge array of unrelated domains so that you can make the most of the reduced AP cost for domain powers. So what you usually end up with is a bunch of elder gods who all have a bunch of wild domains that don't seem to have much to do with each other.

It gets even worse though, because a God of Fire isn't even Immune to the concept he embodies! A God of Water can curse said God of Fire to feel the burning pain of his flames for all eternity and there isn't anything the God of Fire can do about it (well he can break the curse, but let's assume he's out of AP). The God of Fire might as well be the God of Chicken for all the mechanical/thematic benefit he gets for being the God of Fire.

6) The game gets crowded too quickly

The first 3 pages of an LOC game are where all the action happens. Everybody burns their 15 AP like its going out of style and suddenly you've got a lush, vibrant world full of new and interesting ideas. Then your second round of gods comes in and they spend all their AP creating their own concepts, but there's less focus on them because, well, there's already all this other stuff that has more going on with it. By the time the third generation of gods rolls around, they world is so crowded that they pretty much just create their own plane and go play in that sandbox by themselves. There's too much stuff.

7) I hate humans

I really dislike that I've never played an LOC game where somebody didn't make humans. In the 5 I've played, 3 of them had someone calling dibs on humans within the first page of the OOC. In one, it was the first freaking post!

Seriously, what's so special about humans? We get them already, there's no reason to bring them up, or treat them special, like its some kind of "reward" to be the god of humans. This is really just a personal thing though.

-----------------------------------------

In conclusion, the game gets too crowded with junk too quickly and there's no ability to wipe the slate clean (or at least part of it) so new people just have less and less free space to work in. Because of the way the rules and the culture of the game are, lots of very important and cool story concepts are difficult/impossible to pull off and the game gets static way too quickly.

Also, humans suck :smallamused:


And holy Tiamat and her Spawn, That is awesome.
If we could just fit the rules to something like this, it would make it a lot better.

Humans do suck :smallyuk:
Thats why I like Dragons. :smallcool:

[mystic1110]

Elricaltovilla thanks for the input! (Also I really hope that when these rules finish - we get the chance to play together again!)

1-2)

True - I really wish people fight more and allow themselves to LOSE. Any rule suggestion to that? Or is this just a culture thing

3)

Again this was the whole purpose of making magic 5 ap to create system and then 3 AP to create specific magics. This problems STILL shows up all the time. Again don't know how to solve it.

4)

This needs a culture change of allowing yourself to LOSE and making any god above FLEDGING thrown out of the material plane - to make mortals more important.

5)

This is an EXCELLENT point. Perhaps make a separate 2 AP action called Enhance existing Domain. (for the purposes of your god status a enhanced domain counts as 1+X domains where X is how many times it was enhanced?)

6)

Perhaps for this we just need to place a hard limit on the amount of players?

[Elricaltovilla]

And holy Tiamat and her Spawn, That is awesome.
If we could just fit the rules to something like this, it would make it a lot better.

Humans do suck :smallyuk:
Thats why I like Dragons. :smallcool:

Gee thanks, nobody ever responds to my rants like that:smallredface:

One idea I had was that each god would have a DOOM that was thematically tied to their first two domains. As you spend AP, your DOOM increases, and you can either choose to unleash it early for a lesser, targeted effect, or let it build until it blows up spectacularly in your face.

[Preaplanes]

10: Do away with RCR altogether. If somebody wants a conflict, talk about it OOC and decide what happens. I did this with Goldclaw three times, worked swimmingly.


If somebody won't cooperate, the mod decides who wins.

"Let's see, a lesser deity with a couple weapons vs a Elder Deity... yeah, the Elder Deity wins."

"Two Intermediates in an Alliance against an Elder. The two in an alliance RPed together for a long time, so they would have better teamwork. The Intermediates win."

"You've just stomped on three players, and are now aiming at a fourth. You're being a bit of a bully, and it's going beyond IC, making it less fun for other players. Your overconfidence has become your downfall: you lose."

That kind of stuff.

RCR just encourages people to enter an arms race so they can be the big kid on the block by purely mechanical reasons. It also makes one paranoid about the safety of their races, feeling they could be wiped out at any time with a jerk player and a few buffs. The warlike races and gods would always win, leaving little room for true creativity.

And no, I don't particularly like War gods. "I'm going to play a god with the intention of crushing any other god" seems completely counter to the game in my opinion.


11: Oh, and I'm also in favor of banning the typical races.

[ShadowFireLance]

Gee thanks, nobody ever responds to my rants like that:smallredface:

One idea I had was that each god would have a DOOM that was thematically tied to their first two domains. As you spend AP, your DOOM increases, and you can either choose to unleash it early for a lesser, targeted effect, or let it build until it blows up spectacularly in your face.

That sounds..interesting, if a bit complicated...But I still like it.

[mystic1110]

Problem is RCR was developed to prevent OoC fights. No really. The original games did not have RCR. Instead people did exactly what you just suggested. But fights were never JUST elder vs. Fledging. It was never that clear cut. The arguments and fights got to be ridiculous - eventually RCR was designed so the mod could step in at the beginning of an argument and yell "JUST ROLL ALREADY!" Also it took away all accusations of Mod bias - which happened all the time - especially if the mod himself was in an argument.

Mix of my current personal favorite suggestions


Obviously clean up the rules which have references to rules that don't exist anymore.
Only have one infusion ever.
Double or Triple cost of Break Chains - so only players later in the game will be able to use it
Add an extra tier to the society/order chain, and make them all more expensive. For example: Form Society (2AP) Creates a culture who self identify as similar, compared with outsiders, but are not united or organised. Establish Nation (3/4 AP) Creates a country who are organised, with a government, army, legal system etc. Found Order (5AP) Creates an elite group, dedicated to some goal or common cause.
There are no AP reductions. If you wish, you may make a Relic inspire the mortal people benefiting from it, so that they get the effect of 3 Mundane, 2 Advanced, or 1 Magical/Legendary Concept, for free when possessing control of the Relic. This concept(s) must be set at the time of the Relic's creation. This concept(s) may be altered by use of the Alter Relic Action.
sanctums can only be built on other planes
nexus of power can only be created if they are linked to a sanctum you control
leaders can only be promoted to heroes or above in a nexus
First World Sanctum applies to lesser gods now
a separate 2 AP action called Enhance existing Domain. (for the purposes of your god status a enhanced domain counts as 1+X domains where X is how many times it was enhanced?)
hard limit on the amount of players

[Emperor Demonking]

RCR is constantly attacked but it doesn't actually seem to create any problems. Its worth it just as the iron-fisted argument solver.

[Elricaltovilla]

RCR is actually something I like, Preaplanes. I think it's workable, if a little unbalanced. One thing that might help with making LOSING easier to take is if there's a set of rules in place for what happens when you lose. The system right now doesn't define losing beyond "you lose". If there were hard limits on what the winner can take/force onto the loser of the combat then people couldn't weasel out of it so easily.

A lot of my problem with the games has been culture, but if you change the rules of the game, it changes the culture as well. Of course, putting a note about how "YES, you CAN have your toys destroyed or taken away from you, and that's OK" would obviously help.

Here's an idea for the DOOM:


Every AP your god spends adds to his/her doom counter. Each week, you roll 1d100, if you roll less than your doom counter, your doom activates.

A doom is a 5 AP Curse that affects a random area (determined by mod or dice?) or people and is thematically tied to your god's original two domains. You are responsible for writing up the post unleashing your doom and dealing with the fallout of that doom.

You can choose to unleash your doom early, if done so the Curse action is equal to 1/10th of your Doom counter, minimum 1 and maximum 3. If you choose to unleash your doom, you can choose the target of your doom.

[Man on Fire]

About abilities, and I dunno if I got the names right (my game's ruleset was translated to my native language by gm) - if it's about god of what your character is, then wouldn't want there being limits that ban taking the same domain for two differen't gods. Think of it this way - Greeks had Ares and Athena, two very different dieties of war.

If this is something new, that wasn't in original rules, then how about this - you can take the same thing, but you must slightly alert it in fluff, so it owuld look different. God of Fire can throw fireball, but Dragon God can breathe fire.

More things (keep in mind, I played original rules):
How the Pantheon points work? In our game they were useles, because nobody agreed what to do with them - every decission to use them required approval of rest of the pantheon and that just didn't happen.

Why Mortals are so useless? They get some points, but only thign they can use it is inventing new things, which means that they cannot even organize without help of the gods. Which is quite stupid and paints them as morons who cannot tie their own shoes without gods' help. Maybe better idea would be to have their points pool grow slower than gods, but give them more options, which GM could use whenever he wants, as random element outside god's control?

maybe you could include variant rules for picking up a theme of the creation? Made players, original ones at least, agree on what type of world they want to create - typical D&D-esque fantasy, more mythical, quasi-tolkienic fantasy, dark fantasy, postmodern fantasy, new wierd, Jack Kirby-esque space opera, etc. Each would go with some set of guidelines. Also, there would be option of lack of themes, which would have ony one guideline - nobody is allowed to tell other players they're playing the game wrong. I had such bad experience in my game, where other player went pissed I gave local Orc equivalent steam machines, because he wanted to make pure medival fantasy setting (we didn't agreed on a theme before)

List of suggestion how gm could explain dissapperance of some gods because their players simply stopped posting, would be good one too. I remember in our game we had to come up sometimes with very strange excuses why some important gods stopped doing anything.

Also, suggestions how to deal with thing those former players created and later left hanging, ometimes without reolving the plotlines in any way. Maybe gm could get some pool of points he could use to deal with such threads, causing diseasters, ending wars or things like this?

Make it that there need to be at least 3 gods to form a pantheon, othertwise it's prone to abuse - player wil lcreate his own personal half god and then make pantheon only with him, which mean he is the only one to decide how to use the points and asically gets points for free.

Sorry for my bad English and hope this was useful.

[Preaplanes]

RCR is constantly attacked but it doesn't actually seem to create any problems. Its worth it just as the iron-fisted argument solver.

*Sigh* Well, if we're going to fix the broken system, we're going to need to use the dreaded MATH.

First off, let's establish the power of a deity: each Domain takes 3AP to gain, and it takes 2 domains to ascend in power.

that means to gain 1d6, you spend 6ap. So, by the current system, AP is worth .5833333 RCR

We should price bonuses to RCR accordingly if we're aiming for that, but more likely we want it so that actually being a more powerful deity is more valuable than a few toys. "It isn't the weapon, it's how you use it" kind of thing.

[Man on Fire]

And no, I don't particularly like War gods. "I'm going to play a god with the intention of crushing any other god" seems completely counter to the game in my opinion.


Tell me this then - what would Sirmaillion be without Morgoth? What would New Gods be without Darkseid? Gods of evil like this are often necessary to make the setting feel complete, if everybody are just patting themselves in the back, it's boring. Light without dark blinds you completely.

And it's not like you have to be Evil god of War, tyranny, Slaughter or things like this, or at least god of those concepts who plays like Stupid Evil trying to kill everybody. Ares and Athena in Greek Mythology and Loki and Tyr in Nordic are "war/evil diety that is still part of the pantheon".

[Emperor Demonking]

*Sigh* Well, if we're going to fix the broken system, we're going to need to use the dreaded MATH.

First off, let's establish the power of a deity: each Domain takes 3AP to gain, and it takes 2 domains to ascend in power.

that means to gain 1d6, you spend 6ap. So, by the current system, AP is worth .5833333 RCR

We should price bonuses to RCR accordingly if we're aiming for that, but more likely we want it so that actually being a more powerful deity is more valuable than a few toys. "It isn't the weapon, it's how you use it" kind of thing.

Going up a rank has more powers than a combat relic and fewer weaknesses (no risk of theft). It seems wrong for increasing rank being used for the cheapest way to boost RCR. Anyway, I don't think whether the RCR is balanced is at all important; it is there to make sure both sides have a reason to compromise and negotiate an outcome.

[Preaplanes]

Going up a rank has more powers than a combat relic and fewer weaknesses (no risk of theft). It seems wrong for increasing rank being used for the cheapest way to boost RCR. Anyway, I don't think whether the RCR is balanced is at all important; it is there to make sure both sides have a reason to compromise and negotiate an outcome.

Not the most effective, considering I've done the math (http://anydice.com/) for literally every threatening thing on the board in The Blankest State.


And I still think it should be bigger than it is. Deity rank as it is now is actually one of the least efficient ways of increasing in power.

[mystic1110]

About abilities, and I dunno if I got the names right (my game's ruleset was translated to my native language by gm) - if it's about god of what your character is, then wouldn't want there being limits that ban taking the same domain for two differen't gods. Think of it this way - Greeks had Ares and Athena, two very different dieties of war.

If this is something new, that wasn't in original rules, then how about this - you can take the same thing, but you must slightly alert it in fluff, so it owuld look different. God of Fire can throw fireball, but Dragon God can breathe fire.

More things (keep in mind, I played original rules):[/quote]

If you're playing with abilities - then it's the system created by the last alliteration of the LOC rule building on the these forums - created by yours truly and many others! I'm so happy that LOC has spread to other boards! :smallbiggrin:




maybe you could include variant rules for picking up a theme of the creation? Made players, original ones at least, agree on what type of world they want to create - typical D&D-esque fantasy, more mythical, quasi-tolkienic fantasy, dark fantasy, postmodern fantasy, new wierd, Jack Kirby-esque space opera, etc. Each would go with some set of guidelines. Also, there would be option of lack of themes, which would have ony one guideline - nobody is allowed to tell other players they're playing the game wrong. I had such bad experience in my game, where other player went pissed I gave local Orc equivalent steam machines, because he wanted to make pure medival fantasy setting (we didn't agreed on a theme before)

List of suggestion how gm could explain dissapperance of some gods because their players simply stopped posting, would be good one too. I remember in our game we had to come up sometimes with very strange excuses why some important gods stopped doing anything.

Also, suggestions how to deal with thing those former players created and later left hanging, ometimes without reolving the plotlines in any way. Maybe gm could get some pool of points he could use to deal with such threads, causing diseasters, ending wars or things like this?

Make it that there need to be at least 3 gods to form a pantheon, othertwise it's prone to abuse - player wil lcreate his own personal half god and then make pantheon only with him, which mean he is the only one to decide how to use the points and asically gets points for free.

Sorry for my bad English and hope this was useful.

No it was good - only problem is I really want to limit the Idea of a DM. this is supposed to be a free form game.


RCR is actually something I like, Preaplanes. I think it's workable, if a little unbalanced. One thing that might help with making LOSING easier to take is if there's a set of rules in place for what happens when you lose. The system right now doesn't define losing beyond "you lose". If there were hard limits on what the winner can take/force onto the loser of the combat then people couldn't weasel out of it so easily.

A lot of my problem with the games has been culture, but if you change the rules of the game, it changes the culture as well. Of course, putting a note about how "YES, you CAN have your toys destroyed or taken away from you, and that's OK" would obviously help.

Here's an idea for the DOOM:


Every AP your god spends adds to his/her doom counter. Each week, you roll 1d100, if you roll less than your doom counter, your doom activates.

A doom is a 5 AP Curse that affects a random area (determined by mod or dice?) or people and is thematically tied to your god's original two domains. You are responsible for writing up the post unleashing your doom and dealing with the fallout of that doom.

You can choose to unleash your doom early, if done so the Curse action is equal to 1/10th of your Doom counter, minimum 1 and maximum 3. If you choose to unleash your doom, you can choose the target of your doom.

Doom is an interesting Idea - but it would be annoying to keep track of it - aka hard to Mod to keep track of everyones rolls and all that. But I think it's a great Idea. Hell I don't think you should be able to release it early. Why not make it so once any player has spent 50 Total AP it would unleash. Or if you want to make it more random: whenever a player has spent AP at a multiple of 10 roll a 1d6 - if it's a 1 it unleashes as a scourge if its a 6 it unleashes as bless.


*Sigh* Well, if we're going to fix the broken system, we're going to need to use the dreaded MATH.

First off, let's establish the power of a deity: each Domain takes 3AP to gain, and it takes 2 domains to ascend in power.

that means to gain 1d6, you spend 6ap. So, by the current system, AP is worth .5833333 RCR

We should price bonuses to RCR accordingly if we're aiming for that, but more likely we want it so that actually being a more powerful deity is more valuable than a few toys. "It isn't the weapon, it's how you use it" kind of thing.

Remember you still need to use 7 AP to use gain domain so its actually 10 AP. (or 9 AP if we're including the enhance domain action)

[Preaplanes]

Remember you still need to use 7 AP to use gain domain so its actually 10 AP. (or 9 AP if we're including the enhance domain action)

Yes, but you can use those 7ap to use other RCR enhancing actions, like Relics, so I didn't count it. I didn't forget. :smallannoyed:

Maybe we should rule that RCR increasing actions can't be used for domain access?

[mystic1110]

I'm just curious - if you would design as "good" RCR system from scratch what you make. Because I completely agree with you - even though RCR is meant to be used as a last resort the final system should make some sense otherwise it is ineffective.

[Preaplanes]

I'm just curious - if you would design as "good" RCR system from scratch what you make. Because I completely agree with you - even though RCR is meant to be used as a last resort the final system should make some sense otherwise it is ineffective.

I'll work up a draft and have it to you tomorrow. Wouldn't be the first system I designed.


Fair warning: it will be fairly math intensive.

[Man on Fire]

only problem is I really want to limit the Idea of a DM. this is supposed to be a free form game.

Well, I see gm here mostly as janitor taking care of mess left by players who abbandonned the game, tying loose ends if he needs. Sometimes, if players want, he could throw a wrench if everybody;s plans, causing cataclysm or something - it's still game for players most of ll, but gm gets more stuff to do.

[Emperor Demonking]

12. I think the best way of fixing the general is to start semi-anew with Mystic's
' Then add to that the reduction artifacts can only be used on other planes; that sanctums can only be built on other planes; that nexus of power can only be created if they are linked to a sanctum you control, and that leaders can only be promoted to heroes or above in a nexus? '
concept with the desire to change how the game is played, rather than focusing on lower priority specifics e.g. if you want to encourage indirect actions like heroes then that will impact on how you weight heroes in your RCR than if you want epic divine battles that rock the material plane.

[mystic1110]

Great! Thanks!

While Preaplanes is working on his(?) draft of the RCR system I suggest we table RCR discussion till he submits it. Till then I suggest we focus on my list on this page of "favorite suggestions," what to do with a war god and how to change the culture to enforce loss, a possible Doom System, bringing back the abilities.

(btw here is my list of abilities from my own notes: note that they use the outdated RCR which had HP, attack and defense.)

Elemental Mastery - You become one with a certain element. That element may be a traditional one (Fire, water, air) or a more focused element (Death, Magma, Void). When you become one with an element it may effectively said that you ARE that element, that is that you may control that element as if were part of your form and function. The AP costs of Alter Land, Bless/Curse, or Censure/Praise actions involving this element are reduced by 1. You may take this ability multiple times, but you must always distinguish what element it is for: I.E you may take Elemental Mastery (Water) and Elementary Mastery (Acid).

Cloaked in Wanderlust - You are a god who enjoys travel and exploration. You wander both the mortal world and the planes beyond, always searching for a new sight to see. You can walk and influence the Mortal Plane regardless of your Divine Rank.

Herald of Life - Your god becomes life itself. This is not necessarily a good power. Instead it means your god is surrounded by life and mere presence nurtures it.Your god is a master at creating life. You thrive anywhere, and beings near you are filled with vigour. When you use the Create Life Action, you may subtract 1 AP from the cost. This means you can make monstrous and Mundane Life for free.

Source of Arcane - Instead of using Elemental Purity (Magic) this is what this ability is for. Your god becomes a source of magic; he or she becomes magic itself. Your god may make magical concepts for only 1 AP.

Bathed in Blood - Battle doesn't need a purpose; the battle is its own purpose. You don't ask why a plague spreads or a field burns. Don't ask why I fight, says your God. You live for battle and only battle; there is no larger goal that constant bloodshed. It is honor and horror, and it is good. Your god has 2 dice added to attack.

One with the Wild - Your god is almost a beast, you fight with tooth and nail, instead of sword and shield. Your god is powered through instinct rather than reason and strategy. Yet you are still a god, you keep your wits about you, yet as a divine beast you are filled with holy strength. Your god has 1 dice added to attack and 1 dice added to HP.

Formidable Artisan - Your god is a smith and an artist; you delight in creating great works – either crafting the perfect sword or the most beautiful necklace. Items that your god creates are unparallel compared to your kin. Artifacts, Relics and Monuments cost 1 AP less for you to create

Mortal Sheppard - Your god concerns himself in the affairs of mortals, more than the divine. You place great emphasis on controlling the actions of mortals either for their own good, or for your amusement. Create society, create organization and divine covenant actions cost 1 AP less for you. This does mean you can create societies for no AP.

Magnificent Hierophant - Your god places great emphasis on worship, your god wishes and wants for worship and organizes mortals to his own worship. This covenant gives your god power depending on the amount of people worshipping him/her/it. Your god may add 1 dice to any stat for each race he or she has a covenant with and 1 dice to any stat for each race he or she has given a divine mandate to.

Authoritative Adjudicator - Your god is a dispenser of justice both on the mortal realm and the divine. You are who the gods go to, to settle disputes. You are judge jury and when needed executioner. Sometimes negotiate and arbiter you carry great authority that is recognized by all the gods. Your god may add 3 dice to any stat if your god is the administrator of a pantheon

Knowledge Broker - Knowledge is power, and power has a price. Your god is not necessarily the embodiment of secrets or knowledge, but he comes close. Your god trades in information – this does not mean your god is omniscient however – unlike the Crystal seer, you are not scrying information – You instantly know everything that your mortal followers know. Thus your knowledge depends on how far you cast your net. Other gods don't know everything their mortal followers know unless they are told in one form or another.

Divine Beauty - “Beauty is truth, truth beauty— that is all Ye know on Earth, and all ye need to know.” If a god asks another god who is the most beautiful god, they cannot help but say you. Your god is beauty itself, and finds that most mortals would bow to your whim simply because they instinctively think you are so good, and even gods are charmed by your presence. Other gods lose 2 dice from their attack when fighting you. Some Gods, however, are so alien that beauty means nothing to them, gods with "The Inconceivable" ability are unaffected by Divine Beauty, and vice versa.

Crystal Seer - Gods are not omniscient, they cannot automatically see what happens outside their domain. But you are a seer, a being of such sight and vision that you can sense what is happening anywhere if you wish. Your god automatically knows when another god spends AP, unless 1 AP is spent to cloak the action from your Sight. A God with the "One With Shadows" ability does not need to spend AP to cloak his actions from your sight.

One with Shadows - You are a being of deceit, a God who's lot is to lie and deceive. Your actions are hidden from those who they don't affect. No God can automatically know about any AP you spend unless that AP affects them or their creations directly even then they won't know it was you who affected their creations, just that a god did.

Many Faced Trickster - You are a god with many faces. You disguise yourself easily, and even gods are fooled by your act. You can make yourself look, sound, and feel like any animate being. As long as you don't Spend more than 2 AP at a time while disguised, you will fool any god into thinking you are someone else.

Inconceivable - Your god is basically an eldritch horror. Mortals may not look upon your god without going mad. Even other gods struggle to look at you while retaining their sanity. All your creations are bizarre and alien. Every word written about you is locked away in fear of a poor soul going mad with the revelation. You are the Nemesis of Reason. You subtract 2 Dice from your Foe's defense during combat.

Mad Scientist - Your god views the world more of an experiment than anything else. Unlike Source of Arcane this ability is more like Elemental Purity (Science) if science could be considered an element. Your god believes in observation and experimentation, research and testing. You want to pioneer new ways, explore unknown powers, and unfold to the world the deepest mysteries of creation. Advanced concepts cost you no AP to create.

Lord of War - Unlike Bathed in blood, you do not live for battle, instead you are simply a god of war; this does not mean you are evil or good, instead this ability means that you are a master warrior, fantastic strategist, great commander and leader of men. You are a professional of combat, neither reveling in it nor shirking it. Your god may add 1 dice to attack and 1 dice to defense.

Prowess of the Paragon - Above Lord of war and Bathed in Blood, you have mastered a specific weapon. Any weapon, bow or sword, scythe or shield, knife or poison, gauntlet or staff, paper fan or whip; your mastery is up to the point that when equipped with that chosen weapon of yours your combat prowess is to such a point that even gods tell each other legends of it. While wielding your chosen weapon, which must be a Relic, your god may add 3 dice to any stat. If for any reason you are unable to wield your chosen Relic, you loose this bonus. You may take this ability multiple times, but you must always distinguish what weapon it is for: I.E you may take Prowess of the Paragon (Axe) and Prowess of the Paragon (shield).

Immovable Object - You are a god of immovable stoicism. You never back down, even in the face of overwhelming odds. For another god to wound you requires much more effort on their part. your skin is like steel, and your will like stone. You add 2 dice to Defense during combat.

Protean Lord - instead of Elemental Purity (Chaos) you use this ability. Your power comes from the ever mutable and constantly changing chaos from which the world was formed. You are difficult to predict in combat and wild, unfettered creator. You may constantly rearrange your dice pools after combat is declared.

Tyrant Above All - Your god is a champion of conquest and control. His or her mortal worshippers benefit from your blessings in their quest to gain control of the world, just as you seek dominion over the heavens. Your god can ignore any "Home Turf" bonuses that would apply when attacking another Deity. Any races you have a covenant with or organizations you have a mandate with have +1 to combat

Grand Destroyer - You are the embodiment of destruction, the great unmaker of all things. Although most likely to be considered an evil god, your purpose is necessary to creation. Things must be destroyed so that new things may arise. Your Curses and Censures are stronger than most gods, It takes 2 extra AP to break a Curse or Censure you cast.

Holy Benefactor - You are a god of holy power. Your will is manifest in the strength it gives those around you. Your purpose is to create and reinforce, to protect the universe from the crushing effects of darkness. Your Blesses and Praises are stronger than most gods, it takes 2 extra AP to break a Bless or Praise you cast.

Kingmaker - You are known for inspiring mortals to great heights. Many a hero owes their life to you, and many a king their crown. You are capable of easily elevating a mortal to legend, and do so often. You may use the Raise Hero action for 1 AP, and the Raise Legend Action for 3 AP.

Fount of Vigor - Your god is the source of divinity itself - you course with divine power and are enriched by it, your life force eclipses those of other gods. You may add 20 HP (2 dice) to your HP.)

Also some more suggestions

Pantheons so far are used only as a source of AP. I hate that. Sometimes they don't even make sense. Any suggestion on how to prevent this?

[Preaplanes]

Pantheons so far are used only as a source of AP. I hate that. Sometimes they don't even make sense. Any suggestion on how to prevent this?

Making it so that you have to participate in your pantehon's goal might help.


So would remembering that a pantheon leader has croaked. :smalltongue:

[Elricaltovilla]

I think the GM and Mods should take a more active role. Rewarding players for good roleplay, policing curses and blessings, creating events. That way they can keep the game going strong once it starts to lose players.

I think Mods should be able to hand out bonus Domains for people who put a lot of RP effort towards something, but not a lot of AP. Its not like the god exerted less effort, they just did it without spending points. Obviously this should be a very rare thing, but it should be a thing.

I also think that events should happen, like your godplague idea. That was a whole lot of fun, even if it got kinda weird.

[mystic1110]

Well, I see gm here mostly as janitor taking care of mess left by players who abbandonned the game, tying loose ends if he needs. Sometimes, if players want, he could throw a wrench if everybody;s plans, causing cataclysm or something - it's still game for players most of ll, but gm gets more stuff to do.

On the players leaving the game - yeah - instead of leaving them up to the players to use as they will the Mod should give them a farewell post. As for the cataclysm - I think that would be good bt i dont want to give that power to a mod - perhaps a doom system might be a substitute.

[ArcturusV]

*shrug* I like the RCR. Even though I got "Screwed" by it in game. If it was down to OOC "Who has the edge" stuff? I would have clearly roflstomped all over it. The RCR gave me a loss. A loss which spawned a much more interesting subplot in my mind, though I'm aware mileage may vary for others.

The problems with RCR as I see it, is what applies to RCR, rather than the fact that RCR exists and can result in outside "Illogical" conclusions.

Again, using the only RCR roll in the game so far. The person argued that despite the fact his action was attacking my society as a whole, the society shouldn't be allowed to roll into the RCR. As well we had mentions about how Orders should apply to RCR.

And there's a disconnect between what is a valid argument in OOC arbitration and what is actually RCRable.

If Zorth's Army decided to attack me right now? OOCily people would argue that he should just flat stomp me, no contest. He has flying cyborg gun servitor gnomes. 200 of them. Invisible in the skies. And they would argue that Aurea Civitas basically has nothing to counter these advantages.

But if we took it to RCR, how it would break down is:

Zorth's Army: Legendary Cyborg Gnome life form, in an Order. 1d8+1. A 2-9 result.

Aurea Civitas: 1d10 for the Society (The whole city is under siege, makes sense they'd be involved) + 1d8 for the order, The Eye of Aurea Civitas + 1d8 for the Empirical Order who is busy researching Countermeasures and scratching up methods to fight + 1 for Vampires + 1 for an Angel. With a result of 5-28. Maybe more if the Hero, Natasha gets involved, for another +1.

They COULD win. But probably won't. Almost a complete reversal of what the OOC argument would say, where their 100% win rate suddenly drops down to more like a 6% win rate because RCR was involved.

The bookkeeping though would be annoying if we did something like "All applicable mundane concepts add +1 RCR, all applicable advanced concepts add +2 RCR..." etc, to make the OOC Arbitration result more closely match the RCR results.

And that right there seems to be the real problem that people have with it. That things that "Logically" should determine victory don't. I know the other one quoted is something like the rules saying only a Seeker can even hope to damage a God, but a society has a decent chance of defeating a God at RCR.

I see that one as less of a problem because "Victory" isn't defined. I like Victory and Loss not really being defined because of cases like that. In that case the "Victory" might be merely that the society has resisted or somehow foiled the god's aims. Rather than "We killed a god! WHEEE!". Not all victory is measured in blood.

But this whole RCR thing reminds me of something else.

I seems like Leaders, heroes, etc, just don't really do much. You don't get a lot of bang for your buck. A Leader has... no effect other than being an IC character, and possible reduction in AP for making a hero Later on. But if that's what you were interested in, you could have just saved your AP until the next tick, and just made a hero right off the bat. The Hero doesn't do much either. Just +1 RCR, the same as most of the lifeforms being used in our game. Seekers? Same deal. Not much bang. Legends, you start to get a 1d6 to RCR, and 1 AP. Nice.

But I honestly think you can change that up a bit. Say something like:

Leader: A society may only have a number of leaders equal to their Orders + 1 (Thus you can have the society's Leader, plus something like Grandmaster of the Knights, Archmagus of the Academy, etc), a Leader grants +1 AP at rollover.

Hero: A society may have any number of Heroes. Heroes add +1 RCR and +1 for every other Hero also involved in the action. Thus if you have 3 heroes fighting side by side against the evil Dragon Invasion, each hero adds 3 RCR for a +9 Total.

A teamwork and total over the sum of it's parts thing. Which is cool by me.

Seeker: A society may only have 1 Seeker for every 2 Leaders/Heroes that they have. Seekers are powerful mortals who are not only heroic or charismatic leaders, but can rally and fundamentally effect their societies in grand ways. Every roll over a Seeker can roll 1d4-2, which is added as a bonus to your AP due to their heroics, discoveries, etc (Cannot result in a negative number, can result in a zero). Seekers add +2 RCR.

Legend: Like where it is. Add in something like "Legends produce 1 AP + 1 AP for every Seeker in your society" and "Legends add 1d6+1d6 for each Seeker they fight along side in RCR".

These changes at least? They'd make mortals more important. AP is always appreciated. And in order to really get a lot of AP from your mortals of Note, you'd have to sink a lot of AP into Orders, Heroes, Leaders, etc. So there's payoff, but it requires a lot more investment. Which is typically a nice balance for things.

[Preaplanes]

I think the GM and Mods should take a more active role. Rewarding players for good roleplay, policing curses and blessings, creating events. That way they can keep the game going strong once it starts to lose players.

I think Mods should be able to hand out bonus Domains for people who put a lot of RP effort towards something, but not a lot of AP. Its not like the god exerted less effort, they just did it without spending points. Obviously this should be a very rare thing, but it should be a thing.

I also think that events should happen, like your godplague idea. That was a whole lot of fun, even if it got kinda weird.

For the record, I'm 100% behind anything that REWARDS good RP.

[Emperor Demonking]

There are no AP reductions. If you wish, you may make a Relic inspire the mortal people benefiting from it, so that they get the effect of 3 Mundane, 2 Advanced, or 1 Magical/Legendary Concept, for free when possessing control of the Relic. This concept(s) must be set at the time of the Relic's creation. This concept(s) may be altered by use of the Alter Relic Action.

Can you give an example of how that (the non-magical ones) would work in practise, or how you envision it being used.

I think the current main suggestion for nexus (viz. requires a sanctum an is a requirement for producing heroes) is really ugly, and I'd suggest it offering some other sort of benefit as well. Maybe having it come with a free alter land or bless/curse (e.g. the presence of the war god's nexus makes those that settle nearest bloodthirsty.)

RE; War Gods
Why did people find that there peoples didn't war with each other. In the case of Blank Slate's kobolds I think its because they were far away.

[mystic1110]

Making it so that you have to participate in your pantehon's goal might help.


So would remembering that a pantheon leader has croaked. :smalltongue:

Yeah - I have not been a great Mod. I apologize - It's busy over here and I stopped actually visiting I've been trying to solve disputes mostly after they show up, when they show up in the OoC


I think the GM and Mods should take a more active role. Rewarding players for good roleplay, policing curses and blessings, creating events. That way they can keep the game going strong once it starts to lose players.

I think Mods should be able to hand out bonus Domains for people who put a lot of RP effort towards something, but not a lot of AP. Its not like the god exerted less effort, they just did it without spending points. Obviously this should be a very rare thing, but it should be a thing.

I also think that events should happen, like your godplague idea. That was a whole lot of fun, even if it got kinda weird.

The godplague was fun :smallsmile:. Also - i'm sure everyone figured it out, but it was all the head crucible in the end. Just drinking Tea and planning the doom of all the gods.

I guess the problem is that I'm just objectively a bad GM/DM and I try to move a lot of the responsibility onto the players. At the same time I believe that the LOC game should be more a egalitarian democracy instead of a republic

[Elricaltovilla]

I think that abilities should be tied to domains, that way people actually remember/use their domains. Rough idea:

Each time you select a domain (nature for example) you gain one of the following benefits:

1) A free 1 AP action per rollover that can be used to create something tied to your domain. Each subsequent time you take this, you gain another free 1 AP action. These free actions cannot be combined to make higher powered actions.

2) You know when someone else is using an action tied to your domain. You can make an RCR roll to determine the location or deity performing the action. Each subsequent time you take this you gain a +1 bonus to the roll.

3) You gain resistance to attacks (mundane and divine) that utilize your domain. You gain a +1 bonus to resist RCR attacks OR curses that affect you Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

4) Your attacks through this domain are more powerful. You gain a +1 bonus to RCR attacks OR curses that you cast Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

5) Mortals who worship you gain a +1 bonus to anything tied to your chosen domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

[mystic1110]

Leader: A society may only have a number of leaders equal to their Orders + 1 (Thus you can have the society's Leader, plus something like Grandmaster of the Knights, Archmagus of the Academy, etc), a Leader grants +1 AP at rollover.

Hero: A society may have any number of Heroes. Heroes add +1 RCR and +1 for every other Hero also involved in the action. Thus if you have 3 heroes fighting side by side against the evil Dragon Invasion, each hero adds 3 RCR for a +9 Total.

A teamwork and total over the sum of it's parts thing. Which is cool by me.

Seeker: A society may only have 1 Seeker for every 2 Leaders/Heroes that they have. Seekers are powerful mortals who are not only heroic or charismatic leaders, but can rally and fundamentally effect their societies in grand ways. Every roll over a Seeker can roll 1d4-2, which is added as a bonus to your AP due to their heroics, discoveries, etc (Cannot result in a negative number, can result in a zero). Seekers add +2 RCR.

Legend: Like where it is. Add in something like "Legends produce 1 AP + 1 AP for every Seeker in your society" and "Legends add 1d6+1d6 for each Seeker they fight along side in RCR".

These changes at least? They'd make mortals more important. AP is always appreciated. And in order to really get a lot of AP from your mortals of Note, you'd have to sink a lot of AP into Orders, Heroes, Leaders, etc. So there's payoff, but it requires a lot more investment. Which is typically a nice balance for things.

This idea is all kings of awesome. Although we need to figure out the proper AP/RCR bonuses

[ArcturusV]

Well, with my "people" involved in 2 wars right now, potentially 3 if Zorth pulls the trigger... I wouldn't say we're not fighting. Oddly enough I was only the aggressor in 1 of them. Well, Zagrath Mol was the aggressor. But I mean "Aurea Civitas" when I say I in there.

Though part of it is just everyone assuming my culture is something akin to Communist Russia, or that I'm the Khmer Rouge.

[Preaplanes]

Well, with my "people" involved in 2 wars right now, potentially 3 if Zorth pulls the trigger... I wouldn't say we're not fighting. Oddly enough I was only the aggressor in 1 of them. Well, Zagrath Mol was the aggressor. But I mean "Aurea Civitas" when I say I in there.

Though part of it is just everyone assuming my culture is something akin to Communist Russia, or that I'm the Khmer Rouge.

Eh, if Chronamus pulls the trigger, it'll be because you screwed his entire motivation with that first Cosmic Decree. I'm still a little miffed about that OOC, too.


Oh, and speaking of Comsic Decrees, i still think they need a pretty big nerfing, or to be run by the mods EVERY time. I would've objected to the Entropy decree immidiately; my god's entire motivation is anti-entropy. I don't think you should be able to make decrees that screw with an entire god's Modus Operandi.

[mystic1110]

I think that abilities should be tied to domains, that way people actually remember/use their domains. Rough idea:

Each time you select a domain (nature for example) you gain one of the following benefits:

1) A free 1 AP action per rollover that can be used to create something tied to your domain. Each subsequent time you take this, you gain another free 1 AP action. These free actions cannot be combined to make higher powered actions.

2) You know when someone else is using an action tied to your domain. You can make an RCR roll to determine the location or deity performing the action. Each subsequent time you take this you gain a +1 bonus to the roll.

3) You gain resistance to attacks (mundane and divine) that utilize your domain. You gain a +1 bonus to resist RCR attacks OR curses that affect you Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

4) Your attacks through this domain are more powerful. You gain a +1 bonus to RCR attacks OR curses that you cast Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

5) Mortals who worship you gain a +1 bonus to anything tied to your chosen domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

This is a very good idea. Although I think AP should still be spent instead of you getting these bonuses for free- also an infusion depending on how many infusions we allow. Additionally the RCR bonuses will have to wait. . .

Oh and one more thing: any concrete rules on shards?

[Elricaltovilla]

Eh, if Chronamus pulls the trigger, it'll be because you screwed his entire motivation with that first Cosmic Decree. I'm still a little miffed about that OOC, too.


Oh, and speaking of Comsic Decrees, i still think they need a pretty big nerfing, or to be run by the mods EVERY time. I would've objected to the Entropy decree immidiately; my god's entire motivation is anti-entropy. I don't think you should be able to make decrees that screw with an entire god's Modus Operandi.

Cosmic Decrees ARE supposed to be run by the mods every time. I know, cuz I was there when we came up with the idea.

EDIT: 1 shard per god period, and shards are automatically destroyed if another god engages them in combat (if a shard tries to engage another shard they are both destroyed). If your shard is destroyed, you know who was responsible automatically.

[bobthe6th]

I never get what is going on in any LoC thread because there are generally thousands of posts. Trying to catch up from the beginning is like reading several novels worth of fan fiction, written by a schizophrenic. I stop around 100 posts in, and never start again. So I suggest a history.

The history should be done at the end of every post by the player that posted, recording a very short summery of the post. Like if the god dave had created the magical greatsword Woosh, sharper then the crack of dawn, and gifted it to Sam lord of the uttercold and master of the crabs. The history would read: Post x(x being the #of the post in the IC thread): Dave crafts Woosh, gives it to Sam (show post #x). The histories are collected in one post, preferably by one of the GMs.

It would also be cool to keep a listing of all current races, magical items, long term effects, and group... but just a history would make everything make a lot more sense.

[ArcturusV]

Well, it was bound to happen. I mean our gods are diametrically opposed on their goals, methods, and thoughts. You even knew it when you made Chronomus as the App referenced me as an Enemy for exactly those reasons.

So it shouldn't have been THAT surprising. Then again, the "I know everything ever" monument also irked me. So it's kinda mutual, and expected. I don't take it personally, though I do see how it's irksome for both sides.

And I know that was the other decree you did not like. Even as sharply limited as it was and giving you a free loophole around it.

Probably the better rule would be "Anything involving an infusion should be run through OOC and Mods first". Pretty much every action anyone has had a problem with has involved an Infusion.

Darklady when Hank and I were RCRing, as his Infusion into his order meant something like a +70% swing in his odds. Again, counter to the OOC logic "No chance in hell" to "I almost can't lose".

Of course my decree about Mortality and Death, which you dislike. And I think resulted in about 15 AP spent by people to counter it in various ways (Nemaras removing it from his creations, someone else creating Immortal Souls, a Decree about all Death feeding the Flesh God).

Every Monument that is tossing out Free ____s.

The Decree of the Soul Barrier which again, you didn't like. But was spawned in part by the creation of Divination and the infused "I know everything" monument.

I think the only infusions spent that someone hasn't had a problem with were the Break the Chains actions.

Which says something more about Infusion actions than it does about any particular action.

[ShadowFireLance]

Problem is RCR was developed to prevent OoC fights. No really. The original games did not have RCR. Instead people did exactly what you just suggested. But fights were never JUST elder vs. Fledging. It was never that clear cut. The arguments and fights got to be ridiculous - eventually RCR was designed so the mod could step in at the beginning of an argument and yell "JUST ROLL ALREADY!" Also it took away all accusations of Mod bias - which happened all the time - especially if the mod himself was in an argument.

Mix of my current personal favorite suggestions


Obviously clean up the rules which have references to rules that don't exist anymore.
Only have one infusion ever.
Double or Triple cost of Break Chains - so only players later in the game will be able to use it
Add an extra tier to the society/order chain, and make them all more expensive. For example: Form Society (2AP) Creates a culture who self identify as similar, compared with outsiders, but are not united or organised. Establish Nation (3/4 AP) Creates a country who are organised, with a government, army, legal system etc. Found Order (5AP) Creates an elite group, dedicated to some goal or common cause.
There are no AP reductions. If you wish, you may make a Relic inspire the mortal people benefiting from it, so that they get the effect of 3 Mundane, 2 Advanced, or 1 Magical/Legendary Concept, for free when possessing control of the Relic. This concept(s) must be set at the time of the Relic's creation. This concept(s) may be altered by use of the Alter Relic Action.
sanctums can only be built on other planes
nexus of power can only be created if they are linked to a sanctum you control
leaders can only be promoted to heroes or above in a nexus
First World Sanctum applies to lesser gods now
a separate 2 AP action called Enhance existing Domain. (for the purposes of your god status a enhanced domain counts as 1+X domains where X is how many times it was enhanced?)
hard limit on the amount of players


On certain things (Oh crap this is going to be a while.)
In order;
Naturally.
...No. Just no. This presents many, many problems As is, but Why not take a look at 2.0's rules? Monuments and Relics don't -Ap Actions, they only add to RCR, But I prefer Abilities, You really can't abuse -1 to everything as bad as you can other things.
..Still no, Break the Chains is something I've never liked at all. Zeus, For example, wanders the earth hundreds of times. And yet, he's only a Greater deity, not that old even.
Maybe, Why not use a level Society Idea I have below?
I think Ap reductions are useful, as the waiting for more ap just becomes boring to a level of almost just ignoreing it untill you have enough Ap for what you want.
Kinda, but why not have a higher seat of power?
fine.
... And how exactly would that effect anything?
Not certain on that.
And that does what exactly?
not something I like. But maybe useable.



10: Do away with RCR altogether. If somebody wants a conflict, talk about it OOC and decide what happens. I did this with Goldclaw three times, worked swimmingly.


If somebody won't cooperate, the mod decides who wins.

"Let's see, a lesser deity with a couple weapons vs a Elder Deity... yeah, the Elder Deity wins."

"Two Intermediates in an Alliance against an Elder. The two in an alliance RPed together for a long time, so they would have better teamwork. The Intermediates win."

"You've just stomped on three players, and are now aiming at a fourth. You're being a bit of a bully, and it's going beyond IC, making it less fun for other players. Your overconfidence has become your downfall: you lose."

That kind of stuff.

RCR just encourages people to enter an arms race so they can be the big kid on the block by purely mechanical reasons. It also makes one paranoid about the safety of their races, feeling they could be wiped out at any time with a jerk player and a few buffs. The warlike races and gods would always win, leaving little room for true creativity.

And no, I don't particularly like War gods. "I'm going to play a god with the intention of crushing any other god" seems completely counter to the game in my opinion.


Oh, and I'm also in favor of banning the typical races.

As Mystic pointed out, what happens if Mod A is a god of conquest/Tyranny that is deicidal? Then what?
Bias. Sheer Bias.
Three Players and aiming at a 4th, If you just beat the crap outta 3, Why not 5 or 6?

They may, but they enhance the natural world IMO, Do you think people back in ancient times were always never afraid of everyone? Take a Look at the Myans/Aztecs, They were teh Kings of their time, and suddenly powerful people arrived and beat the crap outta them, "There is always greater and lesser then thyself"




RCR is actually something I like, Preaplanes. I think it's workable, if a little unbalanced. One thing that might help with making LOSING easier to take is if there's a set of rules in place for what happens when you lose. The system right now doesn't define losing beyond "you lose". If there were hard limits on what the winner can take/force onto the loser of the combat then people couldn't weasel out of it so easily.

A lot of my problem with the games has been culture, but if you change the rules of the game, it changes the culture as well. Of course, putting a note about how "YES, you CAN have your toys destroyed or taken away from you, and that's OK" would obviously help.

Here's an idea for the DOOM:


Every AP your god spends adds to his/her doom counter. Each week, you roll 1d100, if you roll less than your doom counter, your doom activates.

A doom is a 5 AP Curse that affects a random area (determined by mod or dice?) or people and is thematically tied to your god's original two domains. You are responsible for writing up the post unleashing your doom and dealing with the fallout of that doom.

You can choose to unleash your doom early, if done so the Curse action is equal to 1/10th of your Doom counter, minimum 1 and maximum 3. If you choose to unleash your doom, you can choose the target of your doom.
That sounds awesome dude. I likes.


About abilities, and I dunno if I got the names right (my game's ruleset was translated to my native language by gm) - if it's about god of what your character is, then wouldn't want there being limits that ban taking the same domain for two different gods. Think of it this way - Greeks had Ares and Athena, two very different deities of war.

If this is something new, that wasn't in original rules, then how about this - you can take the same thing, but you must slightly alert it in fluff, so it would look different. God of Fire can throw fireball, but Dragon God can breathe fire.

More things (keep in mind, I played original rules):
How the Pantheon points work? In our game they were useless, because nobody agreed what to do with them - every decision to use them required approval of rest of the pantheon and that just didn't happen.

Why Mortals are so useless? They get some points, but only then they can use it is inventing new things, which means that they cannot even organize without help of the gods. Which is quite stupid and paints them as morons who cannot tie their own shoes without gods' help. Maybe better idea would be to have their points pool grow slower than gods, but give them more options, which GM could use whenever he wants, as random element outside god's control?

maybe you could include variant rules for picking up a theme of the creation? Made players, original ones at least, agree on what type of world they want to create - typical D&D-esque fantasy, more mythical, quasi-tolkienic fantasy, dark fantasy, postmodern fantasy, new wierd, Jack Kirby-esque space opera, etc. Each would go with some set of guidelines. Also, there would be option of lack of themes, which would have only one guideline - nobody is allowed to tell other players they're playing the game wrong. I had such bad experience in my game, where other player went pissed I gave local Orc equivalent steam machines, because he wanted to make pure medieval fantasy setting (we didn't agreed on a theme before)

List of suggestion how gm could explain disappearance of some gods because their players simply stopped posting, would be good one too. I remember in our game we had to come up sometimes with very strange excuses why some important gods stopped doing anything.

Also, suggestions how to deal with thing those former players created and later left hanging, sometimes without resolving the plotlines in any way. Maybe gm could get some pool of points he could use to deal with such threads, causing disasters, ending wars or things like this?

Make it that there need to be at least 3 gods to form a pantheon, otherwise it's prone to abuse - player will create his own personal half god and then make pantheon only with him, which mean he is the only one to decide how to use the points and basically gets points for free.

Sorry for my bad English and hope this was useful.

Now you make a great point here;

Themes of creation: this i like greatly, and would encourge me to play a lot more, this would be amazingly awesome, if a bit complicated for such, but I like it, a lot.


Tell me this then - what would Sirmaillion be without Morgoth? What would New Gods be without Darkseid? Gods of evil like this are often necessary to make the setting feel complete, if everybody are just patting themselves in the back, it's boring. Light without dark blinds you completely.

And it's not like you have to be Evil god of War, tyranny, Slaughter or things like this, or at least god of those concepts who plays like Stupid Evil trying to kill everybody. Ares and Athena in Greek Mythology and Loki and Tyr in Nordic are "war/evil diety that is still part of the pantheon".
point is made here people.



Well, I see gm here mostly as janitor taking care of mess left by players who abbandonned the game, tying loose ends if he needs. Sometimes, if players want, he could throw a wrench if everybody;s plans, causing cataclysm or something - it's still game for players most of ll, but gm gets more stuff to do.

GM/DM=Janitor: This I like.


I think the GM and Mods should take a more active role. Rewarding players for good roleplay, policing curses and blessings, creating events. That way they can keep the game going strong once it starts to lose players.

I think Mods should be able to hand out bonus Domains for people who put a lot of RP effort towards something, but not a lot of AP. Its not like the god exerted less effort, they just did it without spending points. Obviously this should be a very rare thing, but it should be a thing.

I also think that events should happen, like your godplague idea. That was a whole lot of fun, even if it got kinda weird.
This, This is perfect, I like it.



*shrug* I like the RCR. Even though I got "Screwed" by it in game. If it was down to OOC "Who has the edge" stuff? I would have clearly roflstomped all over it. The RCR gave me a loss. A loss which spawned a much more interesting subplot in my mind, though I'm aware mileage may vary for others.

The problems with RCR as I see it, is what applies to RCR, rather than the fact that RCR exists and can result in outside "Illogical" conclusions.

Again, using the only RCR roll in the game so far. The person argued that despite the fact his action was attacking my society as a whole, the society shouldn't be allowed to roll into the RCR. As well we had mentions about how Orders should apply to RCR.

And there's a disconnect between what is a valid argument in OOC arbitration and what is actually RCRable.

If Zorth's Army decided to attack me right now? OOCily people would argue that he should just flat stomp me, no contest. He has flying cyborg gun servitor gnomes. 200 of them. Invisible in the skies. And they would argue that Aurea Civitas basically has nothing to counter these advantages.

But if we took it to RCR, how it would break down is:

Zorth's Army: Legendary Cyborg Gnome life form, in an Order. 1d8+1. A 2-9 result.

Aurea Civitas: 1d10 for the Society (The whole city is under siege, makes sense they'd be involved) + 1d8 for the order, The Eye of Aurea Civitas + 1d8 for the Empirical Order who is busy researching Countermeasures and scratching up methods to fight + 1 for Vampires + 1 for an Angel. With a result of 5-28. Maybe more if the Hero, Natasha gets involved, for another +1.

They COULD win. But probably won't. Almost a complete reversal of what the OOC argument would say, where their 100% win rate suddenly drops down to more like a 6% win rate because RCR was involved.

The bookkeeping though would be annoying if we did something like "All applicable mundane concepts add +1 RCR, all applicable advanced concepts add +2 RCR..." etc, to make the OOC Arbitration result more closely match the RCR results.

And that right there seems to be the real problem that people have with it. That things that "Logically" should determine victory don't. I know the other one quoted is something like the rules saying only a Seeker can even hope to damage a God, but a society has a decent chance of defeating a God at RCR.

I see that one as less of a problem because "Victory" isn't defined. I like Victory and Loss not really being defined because of cases like that. In that case the "Victory" might be merely that the society has resisted or somehow foiled the god's aims. Rather than "We killed a god! WHEEE!". Not all victory is measured in blood.

But this whole RCR thing reminds me of something else.

I seems like Leaders, heroes, etc, just don't really do much. You don't get a lot of bang for your buck. A Leader has... no effect other than being an IC character, and possible reduction in AP for making a hero Later on. But if that's what you were interested in, you could have just saved your AP until the next tick, and just made a hero right off the bat. The Hero doesn't do much either. Just +1 RCR, the same as most of the lifeforms being used in our game. Seekers? Same deal. Not much bang. Legends, you start to get a 1d6 to RCR, and 1 AP. Nice.

But I honestly think you can change that up a bit. Say something like:

Leader: A society may only have a number of leaders equal to their Orders + 1 (Thus you can have the society's Leader, plus something like Grandmaster of the Knights, Archmagus of the Academy, etc), a Leader grants +1 AP at rollover.

Hero: A society may have any number of Heroes. Heroes add +1 RCR and +1 for every other Hero also involved in the action. Thus if you have 3 heroes fighting side by side against the evil Dragon Invasion, each hero adds 3 RCR for a +9 Total.

A teamwork and total over the sum of it's parts thing. Which is cool by me.

Seeker: A society may only have 1 Seeker for every 2 Leaders/Heroes that they have. Seekers are powerful mortals who are not only heroic or charismatic leaders, but can rally and fundamentally effect their societies in grand ways. Every roll over a Seeker can roll 1d4-2, which is added as a bonus to your AP due to their heroics, discoveries, etc (Cannot result in a negative number, can result in a zero). Seekers add +2 RCR.

Legend: Like where it is. Add in something like "Legends produce 1 AP + 1 AP for every Seeker in your society" and "Legends add 1d6+1d6 for each Seeker they fight along side in RCR".

These changes at least? They'd make mortals more important. AP is always appreciated. And in order to really get a lot of AP from your mortals of Note, you'd have to sink a lot of AP into Orders, Heroes, Leaders, etc. So there's payoff, but it requires a lot more investment. Which is typically a nice balance for things.

Points are made, We need a healthy blend of Fluff and Mechanics, something that takes a lot of work.


I think that abilities should be tied to domains, that way people actually remember/use their domains. Rough idea:

Each time you select a domain (nature for example) you gain one of the following benefits:

1) A free 1 AP action per rollover that can be used to create something tied to your domain. Each subsequent time you take this, you gain another free 1 AP action. These free actions cannot be combined to make higher powered actions.

2) You know when someone else is using an action tied to your domain. You can make an RCR roll to determine the location or deity performing the action. Each subsequent time you take this you gain a +1 bonus to the roll.

3) You gain resistance to attacks (mundane and divine) that utilize your domain. You gain a +1 bonus to resist RCR attacks OR curses that affect you Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

4) Your attacks through this domain are more powerful. You gain a +1 bonus to RCR attacks OR curses that you cast Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.

5) Mortals who worship you gain a +1 bonus to anything tied to your chosen domain. Each (more than 1) times you take this ability the bonus increases by +1.


1) I Like.
2) ..This...Makes perfect sense, You may not know exactly WHAT is going on, but you know something is.
3) Makes sense.
4) Better sense is made.
5 Best sense I have seen in a while.

[Elricaltovilla]

I never get what is going on in any LoC thread because there are generally thousands of posts. Trying to catch up from the beginning is like reading several novels worth of fan fiction, written by a schizophrenic. I stop around 100 posts in, and never start again. So I suggest a history.

The history should be done at the end of every post by the player that posted, recording a very short summery of the post. Like if the god dave had created the magical greatsword Woosh, sharper then the crack of dawn, and gifted it to Sam lord of the uttercold and master of the crabs. The history would read: Post x(x being the #of the post in the IC thread): Dave crafts Woosh, gives it to Sam (show post #x). The histories are collected in one post, preferably by one of the GMs.

It would also be cool to keep a listing of all current races, magical items, long term effects, and group... but just a history would make everything make a lot more sense.

While what you're suggesting is a great idea, it would also be an absolutely rediculous amount of work, and I for one don't have the organizational skills to keep track of all that OR the time to update something like that regularly.

Wikis have been tried before, but I couldn't ever get behind that idea.

[Preaplanes]

Well, it was bound to happen. I mean our gods are diametrically opposed on their goals, methods, and thoughts. You even knew it when you made Chronomus as the App referenced me as an Enemy for exactly those reasons.

So it shouldn't have been THAT surprising. Then again, the "I know everything ever" monument also irked me. So it's kinda mutual, and expected. I don't take it personally, though I do see how it's irksome for both sides.

And I know that was the other decree you did not like. Even as sharply limited as it was and giving you a free loophole around it.

Probably the better rule would be "Anything involving an infusion should be run through OOC and Mods first". Pretty much every action anyone has had a problem with has involved an Infusion.

Darklady when Hank and I were RCRing, as his Infusion into his order meant something like a +70% swing in his odds. Again, counter to the OOC logic "No chance in hell" to "I almost can't lose".

Of course my decree about Mortality and Death, which you dislike. And I think resulted in about 15 AP spent by people to counter it in various ways (Nemaras removing it from his creations, someone else creating Immortal Souls, a Decree about all Death feeding the Flesh God).

Every Monument that is tossing out Free ____s.

The Decree of the Soul Barrier which again, you didn't like. But was spawned in part by the creation of Divination and the infused "I know everything" monument.

I think the only infusions spent that someone hasn't had a problem with were the Break the Chains actions.

Which says something more about Infusion actions than it does about any particular action.

But instead of a tit for tat, you started out with a nuclear weapon that says "no matter what you do I win." :smallannoyed:

And unlike the Library, which can be taken over, there's nothing I can do to stop your ****ing decree.

[mystic1110]

Summing up suggestions so far.

More power to the Mod!
Making tiered society actions.
Making tiered leader actions
Giving each higher tier leader/hero effects based on the amount of leader/hero's on the tier below.
A doom type system
Bring back abilities - BUT tie them to domains

---

I'll try to get a suggested system using all this up for vote by tomorrow.

[ArcturusV]

Lots of things. Mundane spying. Watching areas instead of people. Getting non-mortal "Agents" into the society to pick up information that can be transcribed. Just wiping Aurea Civitas off the face of the globe. Taking over their society so the decree has no purpose. Etc.

Unless you meant the Mortality one. Which doesn't make sense because people HAVE countered it. So it's obviously not an ironclad solution.

[Elricaltovilla]

IDEA # I forget what (may seem a bit extreme):

Instead of a hard limit for a number of players, what about a hard limit on the different types of creations? A hard limit on races, or monuments/relics, or nations, or even planes?

This would work especially well with the DOOM mechanic as I originally presented it by allowing players to remove something without having to directly attack it.

OR for races/nations, the hard limit can be exceeded by 1 provided that said race/nation is attempting (whether they ultimately fail or succeed) in removing another race/nation from the game. This could be used to simulate revolutions, surprise attacks, or whatever.

And yes, the obvious problem is that it makes the game decidedly more combative in nature.

----------------------------------

EDIT: Preaplanes, are you planning on reworking the Mortal RCR system too? (last time I played it was different from the gods' RCR system) I think some work should be done there so that mortal fights are more dynamic.

I would also love to see heroes/legends fighting off the gods. I REALLY want that to be possible in the game. And I want my atheist goblin liches back :smallmad::smallamused::smallsmile: still kind of upset at elemental for how he handled them

[Preaplanes]

Unless you meant the Mortality one. Which doesn't make sense because people HAVE countered it. So it's obviously not an ironclad solution.

"Immortal souls" hardly counters "senescence". That's quite the opposite.

Unlike Monuments, Decrees are not only potential game-breakers, but nobody can do anything about it once it's in place. It can't be taken over, even though it costs less AP.

And I can't remove it from my creations anymore, Myst removed the Divine Pact action after the game was started.




EDIT: Preaplanes, are you planning on reworking the Mortal RCR system too? (last time I played it was different from the gods' RCR system) I think some work should be done there so that mortal fights are more dynamic.

I would also love to see heroes/legends fighting off the gods. I REALLY want that to be possible in the game. And I want my atheist goblin liches back :smallmad::smallamused::smallsmile: still kind of upset at elemental for how he handled them

Yes, every intention of taking a hard look at that. A society shouldn't stand much of a chance against gods of any respectable power, but a nation should. It's the old "America vs the Justice League" thing.

I'll try shooting for something to make it more of an even match: superpowers should be able to fight the super powered. :smallwink:

Right now, societies stand far too much of a chance against Gods of even high power according to my math.

[ArcturusV]

Well you can just use a boon to say "We aren't subject to it". Pretty sure Mystic did the exact thing with the C'ras. It's not unbeatable. Just costs AP to fight it as the rules already state you can Scourge/Boon your way out of it.

Though the Soul Barrier one is a pain as it's only effecting my creation (Or your own if they settled in Aurea Civitas as adopted that society). But it's also purely defensive in nature so it shouldn't be such a pain.

[bobthe6th]

While what you're suggesting is a great idea, it would also be an absolutely rediculous amount of work, and I for one don't have the organizational skills to keep track of all that OR the time to update something like that regularly.

Wikis have been tried before, but I couldn't ever get behind that idea.

I tried doing it with a game already running... as said, a little over 100 posts later I just stopped. The idea is to build it as you go, not once there are 1001+ posts and 5 threads.

Just start it at some point, and declaire that "recorded history." Then it is just one line at a time, each post. Their is a static # attached to a post, so you know if some are missing.

[Preaplanes]

Right, well, for societies let me know what you guys decide. I won't be able to start crunching numbers for them until I know what I'm dealing with.



Oh, and if you're looking for more fun to muddy my numbers and give me even more challenge: Nation specializations (one only, let's not bastardize the term "specialization") Like Industrial, Maritime, Mercantile, Isolationist, stuff like that.

[Elemental]

1. If I have the time and motivation, I can try rewriting the AP actions. Just don't expect me to be successful.

2. Not a good idea. Maybe three? One at Lesser, one at Intermediate and one at Elder?

3. Alternative idea to cost reduction: Give the monument or relic an ability to perform one action per week, should it be thematic.

4. That's already a given.

6. It makes no sense for an Elder Deity to turn around and decide to visit the mortal realm. I suggest making it such that only an Intermediate/Lesser Deity can use such an ability due to them retaining lingering ties to the Material.



So a good reason not to have pre-existing planes based on DnD. Though having another plane pre-existing would be nice. This would avoid the effective "AP Tax" on ascending to Intermediate to create a plane, or Infusion and AP tax to Break the Chains.

I'd suggest something like "The Infinite Expanse", a realm of void without shape or distinction. The Infinite Expanse is a realm separate from the Mortal Realm. Beings of sufficient power (Intermediates+) can use their will to shape the Infinite Expanse temporarily, creating objects and definition within the Realm. However this is temporary, and over time the creations will fade back into the void. Even a powerful god would have to spend almost all their time and power to maintain a semi-permanent location upon the Infinite Expanse. It is impossible to build indestructible/permanent objects upon the Infinite Expanse (No relics, monuments, etc).

Blank, it exists, it's a place. People can do things with it. But it's "unusable" enough that people will be inspired to move on (hopefully) and eventually Break Chains or Create Plane.

To add in a rule to make the Planes and Cosmology a bit more interesting, a simple rule to add might be:

"All planes must connect to at least one other plane, the mortal realm does not count as a plane for this purpose."

This way you get a sense of relative space and direction as people build it up. Planes become "Neighbors", maybe it's piss easy to travel between them. It gives people a reason to interact. Heck, it gives enemy gods a reason to possibly interact with the one "neutral" plane in between them. First plane created would obviously have to connect to The Infinite Expanse.

I like this. Call it the Void for reasons of nostalgia.



I'd probably suggest altering that rule. Say something like "There are no AP reductions. If you wish, you may make a Relic inspire the mortal people benefiting from it, so that they get the effect of 3 Mundane, 2 Advanced, or 1 Magical/Legendary Concept, for free when possessing control of the Relic. This concept(s) must be set at the time of the Relic's creation. This concept(s) may be altered by use of the Alter Relic Action.

That's also pretty good. I am all for giving relics/artifacts/monuments abilities that aren't cost reduction. Maybe divide it into two kinds, passive and active? One grants a concept/permanent minor blessing/boon, and the other allows the wielder to do something reasonably specific.
An example of the first is The Stone of Remembrance that allows those who look upon it to commune with the dead. An example of the second is The Spring of Eternity, whose waters fill a basin over time and that whomsoever drinks their fill from the basin becomes immortal.
Just my thoughts and examples.


On the topic of useless mortals: Perhaps give each society the ability to make one mundane concept per week? That'll allow them to evolve and grow without divine intervention.



Pantheons so far are used only as a source of AP. I hate that. Sometimes they don't even make sense. Any suggestion on how to prevent this?

Cut the AP gain from Pantheons and give them a different bonus.

And abilities. Abilities are good.



Oh, and speaking of Comsic Decrees, i still think they need a pretty big nerfing, or to be run by the mods EVERY time. I would've objected to the Entropy decree immidiately; my god's entire motivation is anti-entropy. I don't think you should be able to make decrees that screw with an entire god's Modus Operandi.

A decree is meant to be game changing, for want of a better word. They are counterable, either on a small or cosmic scale.
But yes, decrees, relics, monuments, everything like that should always be run by the mods first.



But instead of a tit for tat, you started out with a nuclear weapon that says "no matter what you do I win." :smallannoyed:

And unlike the Library, which can be taken over, there's nothing I can do to stop your ****ing decree.

If it means that much to you, just counter decree it! In other words, this isn't the place for those discussions.



I would also love to see heroes/legends fighting off the gods. I REALLY want that to be possible in the game. And I want my atheist goblin liches back :smallmad::smallamused::smallsmile: still kind of upset at elemental for how he handled them

Right, so the five thousand year old God of Death should just allow these kinds of things to happen? In fact... I think it was very much in character for Belsheroth at that point. Still, I won't go into it further because it happened last year.
Also, I'm being hypocritical. Sorry, but I can get away with it because it's not a currently running game.



Oh, and if you're looking for more fun to muddy my numbers and give me even more challenge: Nation specializations (one only, let's not bastardize the term "specialization") Like Industrial, Maritime, Mercantile, Isolationist, stuff like that.

I like that idea.

[Emperor Demonking]

Surely specialisation comes up organically by what concepts (etc.) a society has access to?

[Preaplanes]

Surely specialisation comes up organically by what concepts (etc.) a society has access to?

Not really, having certain tech doesn't really tie into how one uses it.



Right, so the five thousand year old God of Death should just allow these kinds of things to happen? In fact... I think it was very much in character for Belsheroth at that point. Still, I won't go into it further because it happened last year.
Also, I'm being hypocritical. Sorry, but I can get away with it because it's not a currently running game.
Don't think there's a statue of limitations in the definition of "hypocrisy", Elemental, all you really did was void your previous point. :smallsigh:

[Elricaltovilla]

Right, so the five thousand year old God of Death should just allow these kinds of things to happen? In fact... I think it was very much in character for Belsheroth at that point. Still, I won't go into it further because it happened last year.
Also, I'm being hypocritical. Sorry, but I can get away with it because it's not a currently running game.


Well, no he shouldn't just let it happen, but he also shouldn't nuke entire species just because they disagree with him. Especially when the god who created the goblins told him to wait.

I'm not saying things didn't turn out ok. You acted exactly as you felt Belsheroth would have, and I acted terrrible vengeance upon you for ignoring my god. It's all said and done, I just wish I'd had more time to develop the society, so I'll probably resurrect the idea some other time if I ever get back into the game.

[mystic1110]

A preliminary draft with some changes of the AP actions. Stuff that hasn't been addressed - new RCR, doom system, shards or amount of infusions. But comments appreciated and expected.

MAjor changes are bolded, also of note: no monuments and relics increased in cost.

1 AP Actions


-Alter Land: Alter land allows a god to change already existing landscapes. It can be used to create mountain ranges, vast forests, lakes, swamps, or any other kind of "land type" you could think of. This includes razing and raising cities! Alter land can also be used to raise small chains of islands from the sea. These islands cannot be very big, but can be large enough to support a small kingdom. Think about the size of Hawaii. An alter Land only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

- Bless/Curse: Blesses and Curses are the will of the gods made manifest. They can range from a golden age for an empire, or to increase the mortal population. The population that finds themselves under the pleasure of a god will find their crops prosperous and their ways smoothed, as the subtle magic of the god is worked in their favor, The population that finds themselves under the curse of a god will find their crops barren and their land blighted, as the subtle magic of the god works against them. . Blesses and Curses can be countered by other gods, however. Each time it is countered, it becomes harder and harder for the gods to exert their will over each other. A blessing or Curse only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on. You use Bless/Curse actions on societies or organization, not individuals.

- Censure/Praise: You use Censure/Praise actions on individuals or small groups of people not societies or whole organizations. Unlike Bless/Curse this action can be more severe, like turning someone to stone or bringing back one person back from the dead. A Censure/Praise only takes 1 AP to create, and 2 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 3 AP to reinstate the curse, and 4 AP to recounter it, and so on.

-Form Society: Form Society allows a god to organize life into grouping beyond simple hunter-gatherer tribes or wandering monsters. Basically this group of people now self-identify and have a common history.

- Alter Existing Race: With permission of the controlling god, or with victory over the controlling god under RCR you may create your own Race out of an existing Race. You may use this action without permission if you also use a scourge action

- Specialize nation: for a nation that does not have a preexisting specialization make it have a specialization: aka is it Industrial, Maritime, Mercantile, Isolationist, stuff like that.

2 AP Actions

Establish Nation - Creates a country who are organized, with a government, army, legal system. You may only use this action on an preexisting society. You may form nations out of races you don’t control.

-Create Land: Create Land allows a god to create land where there is none. It can be used to raise a small continent from the sea, or create large, floating islands in a plane where there is no planet. Land created by Create Land can be up to the size of Australia. A create land only takes 2 AP to create, and 3 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 4 AP to reinstate, and 5 AP to recounter it, and so on.

-Form Order: Form Order allows a god to organize their followers into organizations similar to guilds. These orders can be such things as a Mage's Guild, or an Order of Knights, or even a Company of Mercenaries. You may only use the Form order action on a preexisting society. You can form orders in nations you don’t control.

- Forge Alliance : An alliance is a PAIRof gods who have sworn to protect each other an act together. Being in an alliance allows gods to share AP, and gives them bonuses to combat when fighting together.

-Join Pantheon

Enhance existing Domain: The god must first have spent 7AP worth of AP on things related to the Domain they wish to enhance. (AP used for a previous gain domain or enhance domain does not count). for the purposes of your god status an enhanced domain counts as 1+X domains where X is how many times it was enhanced?). when you use this action choose one of the following When you use a gain domain action you may choose one of the following 1) A free 1 AP action per rollover that can be used to create something tied to your NEW domain. 2) You know when someone else is using an action tied to your domain. 3) You gain resistance to attacks (mundane and divine) that utilize your domain. You gain a +X bonus to resist RCR attacks OR curses that affect you Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain 4) Your attacks through this domain are more powerful. You gain a +X bonus to RCR attacks OR curses that you cast Cost 1 AP more to counter provided they are tied to your domain. 5) Mortals who worship you gain a +1 bonus to anything tied to your chosen domain. Bonuses from enchance existing domain stack with previous bonuses from this action and with bonuses provided by gain new domain

-Form Nexus: You may create a location of mystic and divine energy connected to a preexisting sanctum your god control/owns. A nexus may be a building, a door, a portion of a forest, a specific cave, but must be a specific location – it cannot be “the ocean.” Promoting mortals to higher rank of mortal can only occur in a Nexus.

3 AP Actions

- Create Pantheon: A pantheon is a group of gods whose followers acknowledge the godhood of the other members for the mutual benefit of the gods. Because they spent the extra AP to create the pantheon, the god who created the pantheon has admin rights, and may ban other gods from the pantheon. A banned god MAY NOT rejoin the pantheon without the administrators permission. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time. Each member of the Pantheon gains 1 AP per three members, which can be used for anything and combined with normal AP. If the pantheon drops below three members, this AP ceases to function. This AP is gained normally at rollover, but does not rollover itself (the amount gained every week is considered to be the maximum amount). You must be previously in an alliance with the creator of a pantheon in order to join the pantheon

-Promote Leader : A leader is someone who is responsible for leading his people or organization, and the first step in the ranks of heroic mortals. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. A society may only have a number of leaders equal to their Orders + 1. A Leader grants +1 AP at rollover.

Raise Hero: A hero is the second step in the ranks of heroic mortals. You cannot simply make a hero – you must raise one from a preexisting Leader. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. A society may have any number of Heroes. Heroes add +X RCR and +X for every other Hero also involved in the action. Thus if you have 3 heroes fighting side by side against the evil Dragon Invasion, each hero adds X RCR for a +X Total. Promoting a leader into a Hero makes you lose the +1 AP bonus.

Beget Seeker: A seeker is a hero of the highest order, thought of as being capable of extensive questing without the guidance of a deity. You cannot simply make a seeker – you must beget one from a preexisting hero. You may only use this action inside a Nexus you control. A society may only have 1 Seeker for every 2 Heroes that they have.(you must have 2 Hero’s to promote one of them into a seeker). Seekers are powerful mortals who are not only heroic or charismatic leaders, but can rally and fundamentally effect their societies in grand ways. Every roll over a Seeker can roll 1d4-2, which is added as a bonus to your AP due to their heroics, discoveries, etc (Cannot result in a negative number, can result in a zero). Seekers provide +XRCR

Create Legend: You may create a legend out of a seeker. A legend gains 1 AP + 1 AP for every Seeker and legend in your society. Otherwise Legends count as fledging gods that may not use an enchance domain or gain domain action. you may only use this action inside a Nexus you control.

-Weave Sanctum : You may create a location of divinity attuned to your god. This location may be anywhere not on the material plane. Your seat of power may be a layer of a plane, or a simple foreboding castle. Gods may only enter another God’s sanctum if they have permission or initiated combat.

-Scourge/Boon: Similar to bless/curse a Scourge/Boon creates a much more serious effect. One this is not subtle magic, it can be an instantaneous disease or a sudden resurrection of an entire group! If you blessing or curse is more serious than "Crops fail" or "My people become really good at using sword" it's probably a Scourge/Boon. An Scourge/Boon takes 3 AP to create, and 4 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 5 AP to reinstate, and 6 AP to recounter it, and so on. You use Scourge/Boon actions on societies or organization, not individuals.

- Exalt/Condemn: You use Exalt/Condemn actions on individuals or small groups of people not societies or whole organizations. The line between Exalt/Condemn and Censure/Praise is a thin one. Where Praise can bring a person back from the dead, Exalt can elevate someone to mastery over a whole species. Where Censure can strike one person dead, Condemn can wrap him in chains formed from the heart of a dying sun and drag him to the lowest pit in hell. A Exalt/Condemn only takes 3 AP to create, and 4 AP to counter, however, once countered, it takes 5 AP to reinstate the curse, and 6 AP to recounter it, and so on.

-Create Artifact: An artifact is a powerful item or tool. They are imbued with power beyond that of most mortal's imagining. Artifacts can do many things, from resurrecting the dead, to causing small earthquakes. Artifacts are the tools of Mighty Heroes. Gods cannot wield artifacts, the sheer force of divine power would crush an artifact within seconds. A mortal can claim an artifact for his/her own in a couple of ways. 1) it's presented to him by a god/mortal. 2) He engages in battle (combat or OoC predetermined) for it. A mortal or god may rend/modify an artifact in the following ways: 1) Destroying something is always easier than creating, for 2 AP a god may destroy an artifact in his possession (If you don't possess the artifact, refer to how to claim an artifact) 2) A god may modify an artifact in his possession for 1 AP, modification can alter a chalice of eternal life into instant death. A mortal must be at least a Hero or of a legendary race to wield an artifact.

-Form Astronomical Object: Use this action to create a celestial body such as a moon, planet, asteroid, or sun. If your astronomical object has special properties such as an empathic link to yourself, or can move contrary to the rules of gravity and physics – it is a Relic NOT an Astronomical Object and costs 4 AP. If you plan to create an astronomical action to crash into the world (happens more than you think) that will cost this action PLUS a scourge action (6 total AP) – before doing anything so drastic bring it up in the OoC first. An Astronomical Object only takes 3 AP to create, and 4 AP to counter, however, once countered; it takes 5 AP to reinstate, and 6 AP to recounter it, and so on.

- Gain Domain: The Gain Domain action allows a god to gain an additional Domain and an accompanying Portfolio. The god must first have spent 7AP worth of AP on things related to the Domain they wish to gain. The Gain Domain action may never be used to qualify for a Domain, but any other action can be. When you use a gain domain action you may choose one of the following 1) A free 1 AP action per rollover that can be used to create something tied to your NEW domain. 2) You know when someone else is using an action tied to your domain. 3) You gain resistance to attacks (mundane and divine) that utilize your domain. You gain a +X bonus to resist RCR attacks OR curses that affect you Cost 1 AP more provided they are tied to your domain 4) Your attacks through this domain are more powerful. You gain a +X bonus to RCR attacks OR curses that you cast Cost 1 AP more to counter provided they are tied to your domain. 5) Mortals who worship you gain a +1 bonus to anything tied to your chosen domain.

5 AP Actions:


-Weave Plane: Weave Plane allows a god to create the fabric of their own reality. Planes are entire dimensions apart from the normal world, and can take any form a god can imagine. Hell, Heaven, or Limbo, are examples of planes. When weaving a plane, the creating god must decide on any special features it has, such as accelerated time, or empowered magic. A god may also decide how many layers there are initially. This can vary from one, to thousands, though most planes have less than three. Unlike a sanctum a god gets no special benefit for being within his or her own realm or plane.

- Divine Infusion : A divine infusion is when a god merges part of their essence into something. This is a tool for RCR as well as spreading the religion of you god. An infused person gets a plus to RCR (see below), but is also assumed to be a spiritual leader in the faith of your god. Using a divine infusion on land will likewise give you or your chosen followers a bonus on said land, but will also essentially make that designated area a temple to your deity. There is no limit on what you can or cannot use a divine infusion on, but you can only have a certain number of divine infusions depending on your divine status (see table).

- Break the Chains: You can walk and influence the Mortal Plane regardless of your Divine Rank. This uses up one of your allotted infusions.

-Cosmic Decree: Cosmic Decree is a special type of divine infusion with special rules, but use of a Cosmic Decree uses up one of your allotted infusions. Cosmic Decree allows the gods to say something about the universe, and have it be true. These things are the things about Reality that just ARE. You can use Cosmic Decree to say that all Teleportation, no matter what source, touches upon a certain plane, even if only for a split second. You could decree that all living things have immortal souls. You could say what happens after death, perhaps there is an afterlife, or maybe death is truly the end, and nothing exists afterwards for mortal beings. You can decide that gravity doesn't exist or that it works in reverse. You may decide that Karma is an actual thing and that the universe truly does reward the good and punish the wicked as a simple FACT. Other gods MAY NOT challenge your cosmic decree, unless they make a decree themselves, BUT ANY god may allow their creations to escape a specific Cosmic Decree by using a Scourge/Boon action. A god may rescind a Cosmic Decree they announced at any time for free.

-Create Relic: Relics are powerful items that would destroy any mortal who is not a Legend, if they tried to use one. Only gods have the force of will to wield a Relic. Relics can do almost anything a god can imagine, and grant them bonuses to divine combat. A God can claim a Relic for his/her own in a couple of ways. 1) it's presented to him by another God. 2) He engages in battle (Combat or OoC predetermined) for it. A god may rend/modify a Relic in the following ways: 1) Destroying something is always easier than creating, for 3 AP a god may destroy an Relic in his possession (If you don't possess the Relic, refer to how to claim an Relic) 2) A god may modify an Relic in his possession for 2 AP, modification can alter the book of future possibilities into a book of past outcomes. The Creator of the Relic is immediately aware of its destruction. Like an earthquake, energy from a relic sends shockwaves throughout the cosmos, and those attuned to them, such as the creator, or other gods who have previously wielded the relic for extended lengths of time, would feel it.

Variable AP Actions


-Create Life:

Life is defined here as anything animate that can act of its own, or a god's will. Humans, Golems, and Undead, all fall under this category.

- Mundane Life 1 AP: You create non-Sentient Animals (bugs, germs, gerbils) (you may use this action for free any amount of times when you use a create land action or an alter land action.)

- Monstrous life 1 AP: non-sentient monsters Giant Spiders, Dire Animals, Purple Worms, or hell, Dinosaurs. You can't use an alter land action/create land action and make monstrous life. So while you can use alter land to make a land full of honey and bees without a mundane life action, you can't make Jurassic park with dinosaurs with just an alter or create land action.

- Sentient Life 2AP: Of any type of life that is roughly equal to a human sapience. Sentient Life does not have a bonus for combat, but they have the ability to use any mundane concepts unlike monstrous life

- Fabled life 5AP: such as Dragons, Greater Demons, Giants, Vampires, Fey, Powerful Angels, Titans, or other blatantly supernatural and extremely powerful beings.

-Create Concept:

Note: an advanced or mundane concept action can be used to thematically make a specific culture/race/society/organization the best at that specific advanced or mundane concept, or make that concept thematically very important to that culture/race/society/organization. Also an advanced concept action can be used to REMOVE a specific advanced or mundane concept from the minds of a specific culture/race/society/organization)

-Mundane 1AP:Non-military Concepts that would have been easily found in ancient rome or greece. Blacksmithing, Literature, Sculpture, and Architecture are examples of Mundane Concepts. A Sentient Race means that they are able to produce their own shelter. Whether that be crude huts, caves, or tents. Societies would get slightly better quality buildings. Wooden houses, fences, the rare and crude stone fort. Architecture as a Concept would allow for more exotic buildings. Stone Castles, Pyramids, and others. Think of Architecture as a concept representing a society's signature building designs. Aztec, British, Gothic, those are all kinds of architecture found in the real world.

- Advanced 2AP : Advanced concepts are technological marvels that revolutionize the way a society works. Things such as engineering, Gunpowder, Steam Power, and Plumbing, are Advanced Concepts. Military concepts such as armies, sword fighting, martial arts, dueling, archery, discipline would be advanced concepts. Any Society created can have a military if the creator wishes. Whether this is more like a militia, or the society is more like vikings in that the "warrior" is the default job. Advanced concepts for armies would represent structuring and training beyond giving your capable men and women a spear and leather jerkin. Steam Punk no matter how advanced would always be advanced not magical - so have fun with your dirigibles (Same goes for each other punk variant, such as clockpunk, biopunk, cowpunk. EXCEPT for cyber punk - that will be a legendary concept – all Sci Fi is a legendary concept).

- Magical 3 AP: Magical Concepts are ways of using power that allow the wielder to accomplish great things. Pyromancy, Necromancy, Abjuration, Healing these are all Magical concepts. So, think of Legendary Concepts as the broadest sense of magic, and Magical Concepts are focused schools of it. Super advanced materials are also magical concepts, if your race works with Adamantium, Octiron, or Orichalcum, then it will be a magical concept not an advanced concept. Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.

-Legendary 5 AP: Like Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are far from mundane. However, unlike Magical Concepts, Legendary Concepts are more than ways to use power. They are power itself. Arcane Magic, or Divine Magic, Immortal Souls, Afterlife are examples of Legendary Concepts. These are ideas with such scope that they could be used to do almost anything. (This includes all science fiction) Remember a Magical concept CANNOT make magic, it can only make a school of magic - use Legendary concept action to make a system of magic. You CANNOT make a school of magic without a system of magic already existing.

[Elricaltovilla]

Comments on new AP actions:

So far so good. I like a lot of the changes, but I disagree with the enhanced domain feature, I think that the reward should just come with the new domain so that gods can have a bit more variety with their skills right from the beginning.

The curse/bless system needs reworked badly. I think it should have a table layout and some better examples of the difference in power between each stage of curse/ bless. I might make that my project this weekend...

I think that if you want to encourage environment building you should raise the AP cost on things that aren't create land variants. And cosmic decree specifically should be 10 AP because its such a powerful ability. You're warping all reality everywhere after all.

[ShadowFireLance]

I'm liking the highest being a 5 Ap Action.
It makes life so much simpler.

I'm also digging the new AP actions Mystic, Totally Groovy.
(Why am I talking like a hippy?)

[ArcturusV]

I'd make it so Heroes and Leaders are necessarily separate things, rather than linear progression. So if you were going to map it out, it'd be:


Legends
^
Seekers
^ ^
Heroes, Leaders

Because in part Heroes and Leaders do fundamentally different things. Leaders, as "Civilian Administrator" types give out AP, are the faces of your great institutions, etc. Heroes are, well... people who are above and beyond, will team up with other heroic figures and go kick people square in the nuts.

[rweird]

I think that the Hero and Leader actions encourage people to make a bunch or orders and thusly heroes to get a bunch of AP, this may lead to problems like cost reductions, not sure.

I know this is a bit late, but I am against the giving a domain for exceptional role play, I can easily see how it'd lead to hard feelings, maybe some sort of vote thing between the players once X players nominate a player and then subject to mod approval.

For the alliance/pantheon, the pair rule kind of means that if two gods from the pantheon (who aren't the leader) fight together, they'd have no bonus, and only the leader would get bonuses (and pretty big ones at that). Is this intentional, if so, why?

[Man on Fire]

I never get what is going on in any LoC thread because there are generally thousands of posts. Trying to catch up from the beginning is like reading several novels worth of fan fiction, written by a schizophrenic. I stop around 100 posts in, and never start again. So I suggest a history.

The history should be done at the end of every post by the player that posted, recording a very short summery of the post. Like if the god dave had created the magical greatsword Woosh, sharper then the crack of dawn, and gifted it to Sam lord of the uttercold and master of the crabs. The history would read: Post x(x being the #of the post in the IC thread): Dave crafts Woosh, gives it to Sam (show post #x). The histories are collected in one post, preferably by one of the GMs.

It would also be cool to keep a listing of all current races, magical items, long term effects, and group... but just a history would make everything make a lot more sense.

In my game we had separate subforum that included separate threads for describtions of every good in which we were told to catalogue everything diety had done each turn and one player was updating every addition to the setting into first post. We were also told at the end of every post to put in spoiler summar wof our actios with number of points spend. It worked pretty well.

EDIT: Idea how Janitor GM could work.

Once a player dissapears for long enough to be considered out of the game, GM can put his creations to use for anybody who is willing to take them. He also sets the clock, dunno for how long, probably should depend on situation - if we're talking about thing liek war, revolution etc, gm should probably set deadline realatively close, as those thigns are happening fast in context of millenia-spannig game. For things like races, cities, landscapes, unless they cause some problems to other players, gm could set the deadline much futher, maybe even decide to not to and just leave them how they are for players to pick up. Anyway, when gm feels like he should deal with mess left by other player, then, once deadline is over he can post resolution to all plot threads left, wrap up any plans or changes left in the middle of taking place or destroy these things. If rule about limit would be added, that you cannot create more than X races or continents (which I'm against, at least until it's flexible in soem way, because sometimes you just want to play this guy out of nowhere who drops out with army of monsters, raises an island for himself and invades nearest continent), then detruction should be obligatory - if nobody is interested in playing with these toys, better remove them and make place for new ones.

another idea, as alternative to "game theme" one I suggested: Theme for a specific god. This oen means you assign your goal to create setting that is X in style of narrative, where X can be Tolkien-esque high fantasy, pseudo-fairy tale, low fantasy, dark fantasy, new weird, space opera, magitech, comic gods, humor or whatever else you want. This means that your are working to create that kind of setting and you can mess with creations of other gods, to make them mroe align with how your god think thigs should be, with disclaimer other god's player cannot hold it against you. This should be only variant, additional rule, for more competetive style of play, where we want to have a game of "who outwits who", where players each force their narrative one after another.

Also, about pantheons, I have some ideas:
1) Pantheon requires you to have at least one domain that would be aligned with domain of the founder/leader. Say, if god of order creates the patheon, then only gods who have domains he holds in respect. So God of Justice or Love are allowed, so is God of Death, but not God of Chaos, War or Slaughter. through any of them could be allowed if they have different domain. If your God of War is also god of Justice, he could go in, if your God of Chaos is also God of Knowledge, Science or Magic, he could be allowed. this way we will avoid situations in which pantheons become gods that don't have anything to do with each other allying against that other god who pissed them off. We had such situation in our game, where monotheic wolf-god (domains: Loyalty, order) who had forbidden his followers to worship other gods (rest of the world had politheic views on those matters and worshiped all of the gods) and ruthless godess of war joined the pantheon with second strongest god around (domains: rock, conflict, change) with whom we had next to nothing in common, just because we felt threatened by the strongest god around (god of balance), who started acting like a bully. It ended with two big pantheons set against each other and one player mockingly calling us NATO and The Warsaw Pact.
1a) Exceptiosn to that are gods related to members of the pantheon. If God of time has daughter, godess of air, there is no reason she shouldn't be allowed to the pantheon, if she's willing to - she is connected to the pantheon already.

2) How do mortals worshipping one patheon relate to other gods? We had this problem in our game - do the worshippers of Rock God, War Godess and Fire God don't belive in God of Balance and his Court allied with God of nature, even through the pantheon has been created as direct response of their actions?

3) Idea: Instead of providing points for use, pantheon has numbers of points you can draw from to defend yourself from an attacks made by gods outside the pantheon. Say God of Slaughter attacks God of nature and deals him 3 dmg, God of nature can draw 3 points from pantheon pool and have no damage dealt to him?

4) Another idea: members of the pantheon gains bonuses to combat, if they joined to defend another member of the pantheon. Say, God of Balance decides he had it with Godess of War and attempts to blast her into oblivion. God of Change, who shares the pantheon with Godess of War shows up rightfully pissed and attacks God of balance. As he is defending member of his pantheon, he gets +2 to attack or some other combat bonuses.

[mystic1110]

I think that the Hero and Leader actions encourage people to make a bunch or orders and thusly heroes to get a bunch of AP, this may lead to problems like cost reductions, not sure.

I know this is a bit late, but I am against the giving a domain for exceptional role play, I can easily see how it'd lead to hard feelings, maybe some sort of vote thing between the players once X players nominate a player and then subject to mod approval.

For the alliance/pantheon, the pair rule kind of means that if two gods from the pantheon (who aren't the leader) fight together, they'd have no bonus, and only the leader would get bonuses (and pretty big ones at that). Is this intentional, if so, why?

To give you an Idea how hard it is to gain a single AP from having a leader:

You need to make a Plane [5 AP]
Then a Sanctum [3 AP]
Then a Nexus [2 AP]
Then a sentient Race [2 AP]
Then a society [1 A]
Then you can finally make a Leader [3AP]

Granted you can leech off other peoples planes, races and societies.

A change I would make is making it a requirement that instead of orders + 1 it would just be orders. And limiting it to only 2 Leaders at a time.

Other fixes would be to change progression to

Legends
^
Seekers
^ ^
Heroes, Leaders

Next the big thing is alliance/pantheon. The idea is that joining one brings RP duties. Additionally note that it essentially costs 4 AP to join a pantheon now, and much much more to create one.

How about this:

Create Pantheon 3 AP: A pantheon is a group of gods whose followers acknowledge the godhood of the other members for the mutual benefit of the gods. Because they spent the extra AP to create the pantheon, the god who created the pantheon has admin rights, and may ban other gods from the pantheon. A banned god MAY NOT rejoin the pantheon without the administrators permission. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time. Each member of the Pantheon gains 1 AP per three members, which can be used for anything and combined with normal AP. The leader of a pantheon gains 2 AP per three members. If the pantheon drops below three members, this AP ceases to function. This AP is gained normally at rollover, but does not rollover itself (the amount gained every week is considered to be the maximum amount). You must be previously in an alliance with the creator of a pantheon in order to join the pantheon. Being in an pantheon allows gods to share AP, and gives them bonuses to combat when fighting together. The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - Unlike an alliance the gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader. Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon AND a loss of 2 AP.

- Forge Alliance 2 AP : An alliance is a PAIR of gods who have sworn to protect each other an act together. Being in an alliance allows gods to share AP, and gives them bonuses to combat when fighting together. The alliance is a sacred bond, if one of the gods in an alliance is in under attack the other god is OBLIGATED to attend and help

- Join Pantheon 2 AP

[Preaplanes]

To give you an Idea how hard it is to gain a single AP from having a leader:

You need to make a Plane [5 AP]
Then a Sanctum [3 AP]
Then a Nexus [2 AP]
Then a sentient Race [2 AP]
Then a society [1 A]
Then you can finally make a Leader [3AP]

Granted you can leech off other peoples planes, races and societies.

A change I would make is making it a requirement that instead of orders + 1 it would just be orders. And limiting it to only 2 Leaders at a time.

Other fixes would be to change progression to

Legends
^
Seekers
^ ^
Heroes, Leaders

Next the big thing is alliance/pantheon. The idea is that joining one brings RP duties. Additionally note that it essentially costs 4 AP to join a pantheon now, and much much more to create one.

How about this:

Create Pantheon 3 AP: A pantheon is a group of gods whose followers acknowledge the godhood of the other members for the mutual benefit of the gods. Because they spent the extra AP to create the pantheon, the god who created the pantheon has admin rights, and may ban other gods from the pantheon. A banned god MAY NOT rejoin the pantheon without the administrators permission. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time. Each member of the Pantheon gains 1 AP per three members, which can be used for anything and combined with normal AP. The leader of a pantheon gains 2 AP per three members. If the pantheon drops below three members, this AP ceases to function. This AP is gained normally at rollover, but does not rollover itself (the amount gained every week is considered to be the maximum amount). You must be previously in an alliance with the creator of a pantheon in order to join the pantheon. Being in an pantheon allows gods to share AP, and gives them bonuses to combat when fighting together. The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - Unlike an alliance the gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader. Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon AND a loss of 2 AP.

- Forge Alliance 2 AP : An alliance is a PAIR of gods who have sworn to protect each other an act together. Being in an alliance allows gods to share AP, and gives them bonuses to combat when fighting together. The alliance is a sacred bond, if one of the gods in an alliance is in under attack the other god is OBLIGATED to attend and help

- Join Pantheon 2 AP

No, I disagree strongly. Pantheons are being abused enough as is, adding RCR modifiers to it just breaks it further. What we should do is add a HEAVY RP requirement to Alliance and use THAT for it. By my calculations, it's already the most devestating AP action in the (current) system. We do NOT want to be handing a rocket launcher to everybody in the largest pantheon, it would give the leader in particular near ultimate power in the game.

An Alliance implies a stronger bond between Gods, and should be used to forge an appropriately more powerful bonus to combat.


Zeus and Hades hate each other, and Zeus is the leader. Thor and Loki also hate each other, but are still part of the same pantheon. They wouldn't work together. However, Hades and Loki both share similar motivations and personalities as schemers, and Zeus and Thor are both Storm gods. They may form an alliance with each other, if they get to know e/o, which would be used to fight effectively, even without being in the same pantheon.


I do like the Pantheon leaders giving orders thing, gives it some downsides if you're not the leader and a Tragedy of the Commons if everybody wants to BE the leader. However, you should add a note that you're not obligated to spend AP on the leader's orders under any circumstances. Either that, or denote Pantheon AP again.

It should be that under extenuating circumstanced (middle of a non-sparring fight, middle of a negotiation with a god that seems as likely to kill you as not, etc) you don't get punished for failing to obey an order.

Also, if we're going by Greek mythology, it is possible to overthrow a pantheon leader, though that brings up more questions than it gives answers.


And once again, I must remind you that I cannot crunch numbers if I don't have a good idea how things are.

[Man on Fire]

Zeus and Hades hate each other, and Zeus is the leader. Thor and Loki also hate each other, but are still part of the same pantheon. They wouldn't work together. However, Hades and Loki both share similar motivations and personalities as schemers, and Zeus and Thor are both Storm gods. They may form an alliance with each other, if they get to know e/o, which would be used to fight effectively, even without being in the same pantheon.

Zeus and Hades do not hate each other, Hades is always welcomed with open arms on Olympus. Zeus and Poseidon have strangled relationship, because after defeating Chronos they drew straws over who gets what dominion - Zeus drew the longest and became ruler of Olympus, Hades drew shortes and became ruler of underworld but was chill with it but Poseidon, who got seas, felt cheated and for long time refused to talk with Zeus. And even that was temporary. The closest there is to god Zeus hates is Ares, as noted in Illiad:

You are the most hateful to me of the gods who hold Olympus; forever strife is dear to you and wars and slaughter.

And on grand level of things however I do think this clears the semantics - we could say all dieties in game are from one pantheon and some are jsut parts of different alliances. No longer the issue I had described in point 2 is present.

[Preaplanes]

Zeus and Hades do not hate each other, Hades is always welcomed with open arms on Olympus. Zeus and Poseidon have strangled relationship, because after defeating Chronos they drew straws over who gets what dominion - Zeus drew the longest and became ruler of Olympus, Hades drew shortes and became ruler of underworld but was chill with it but Poseidon, who got seas, felt cheated and for long time refused to talk with Zeus. And even that was temporary. The closest there is to god Zeus hates is Ares, as noted in Illiad:


And on grand level of things however I do think this clears the semantics - we could say all dieties in game are from one pantheon and some are jsut parts of different alliances. No longer the issue I had described in point 2 is present.

Not really what I was getting at: Zeus and Hades are both part of the Greek pantheon. Thor and Loki are both part of the Norse pantheon.

Even as part of the same pantheon, they don't necessarily get along.

However, Zeus and Thor, as well as Loki and Hades, share similarities that might make them close allies.

As for being existant but part of differing pantheons, ever play "Age of Mythology"? If not, I highly recommend it. Old game, but still classic (pun intended).

And let's face it: mortal worship is vague at best in this game.



Also, pet peeve: For F***'s sake, it's KRONUS, not CHRONOS. Two completely different gods. Like getting Gaia and Atlas mixed up. :smallmad:

[ShadowFireLance]

Not really what I was getting at: Zeus and Hades are both part of the Greek pantheon. Thor and Loki are both part of the Norse pantheon.

Even as part of the same pantheon, they don't necessarily get along.

However, Zeus and Thor, as well as Loki and Hades, share similarities that might make them close allies.

And let's face it: mortal worship is vague at best in this game.



Also, pet peeve: For F***'s sake, it's CRONUS, not CHRONOS. Two completely different gods.

Actually, You forgot a "K" :smallbiggrin:

[Preaplanes]

Actually, You forgot a "K" :smallbiggrin:

Now that part varies from source to source, but you're right, I do prefer to spell it "Kronus" to help differentiate the two.

[ShadowFireLance]

Now that part varies from source to source, but you're right, I do prefer to spell it "Kronus" to help differentiate the two.

Now, Gaia and Atlas are Mixable, but not a whole lot. :smalltongue:

[Emperor Demonking]

As an alternative way of avoiding pantheons being gamed for AP, maybe make it so that gods are automatically in a pantheon of the original god that's at the top of their family tree, with the leader being able to join his/her pantheon to another pantheon. That would make pantheons a bigger deal; if you left a pantheon to chose another then you're betraying one family and joining another. Also, if everyone is in a pantheon (as they would be with this method) then you can just reduce base rollover by 1 AP to compensate.

[Preaplanes]

Now, Gaia and Atlas are Mixable, but not a whole lot. :smalltongue:

Eh, Atlas is to Gaia as Hades is to Tatarus as Selene is to Nyx as Eris is to Chaos. Later generations closely associated but not the same as the Primordials.



As an alternative way of avoiding pantheons being gamed for AP, maybe make it so that gods are automatically in a pantheon of the original god that's at the top of their family tree, with the leader being able to join his/her pantheon to another pantheon. That would make pantheons a bigger deal; if you left a pantheon to chose another then you're betraying one family and joining another. Also, if everyone is in a pantheon (as they would be with this method) then you can just reduce base rollover by 1 AP to compensate.

Sounds logical. That way the Primordials are the heads of the pantheons and being an original is a bigger deal (it never really felt like being one of the original deities did anything but make so you could post right away). It would also make it so that one chose one's progenitor a bit more carefully.

I like it.

[mystic1110]

And once again, I must remind you that I cannot crunch numbers if I don't have a good idea how things are.

Try to number crunch ignoring the pantheon/alliance stuff using the revamped AP actions I had listed - I'll try to make an action taking into account your points and without the RCR bonus

[mystic1110]

As an alternative way of avoiding pantheons being gamed for AP, maybe make it so that gods are automatically in a pantheon of the original god that's at the top of their family tree, with the leader being able to join his/her pantheon to another pantheon. That would make pantheons a bigger deal; if you left a pantheon to chose another then you're betraying one family and joining another. Also, if everyone is in a pantheon (as they would be with this method) then you can just reduce base rollover by 1 AP to compensate.

Problem with that is the original gods may not be the heads of their respective pantheon. With the extra stuff I put in - joining a pantheon is much more expensive - 4 AP. Becoming head of a pantheon is much much more expensive 7 AP at least. the Head gets bigger bonuses and has actual authority over the other members. Leaving a pantheon or disobeying costs 2 AP. And new alliance rules is YOU HAVE to help - and considering that you are in alliance with the pantheon head you have to defend them.

Basically joining a pantheon will be a much bigger deal.

In the same vein we can have a rule is that you are automatically part of your progenitor's pantheon - so your dad's boss is your boss as well.

[Emperor Demonking]

Problem with that is the original gods may not be the heads of their respective pantheon. With the extra stuff I put in - joining a pantheon is much more expensive - 4 AP. Becoming head of a pantheon is much much more expensive 7 AP at least. the Head gets bigger bonuses and has actual authority over the other members. Leaving a pantheon or disobeying costs 2 AP. And new alliance rules is YOU HAVE to help - and considering that you are in alliance with the pantheon head you have to defend them.


That's why I proposed it as an alternative approach rather than a complementary one. In the goal of fixing the problem of spurious AP-farm pantheons, your approach punishes people if they try to create or join one. While my suggestion is a different idea of putting them in a non-arbitrary pantheon to start off with, thus giving them no reason to dejoin that to join an arbitrary one.

[mystic1110]

I don't see how it punishes people - more expensive? sure? But not punishing. Hell being a leader of a pantheon is awesome now. Also with the added rule of "you are automatically part of your progenitor's pantheon - so your dad's boss is your boss as well." It seems like that would be a middle road between our two approaches.

[Emperor Demonking]

I don't see how it punishes people - more expensive? sure? But not punishing. Hell being a leader of a pantheon is awesome now. Also with the added rule of "you are automatically part of your progenitor's pantheon - so your dad's boss is your boss as well." It seems like that would be a middle road between our two approaches.

If you create the 'Moar AP' pantheon then nobody will join, since the burdens are too great, so you're out 7 AP. If a god does join the 'Moar AP' pantheon then they've got to deal with their god of peace doing whatever the god of death commands.

You agree that your idea does get rid of the AP-farm pantheon, right? If you don't think it does so by punishing people who join it then how do you think it does so?

The "you are automatically part of your progenitor's pantheon - so your dad's boss is your boss as well." seems like it could get very messy very fast, with gods being in a muddle of pantheons especially when we're dealing with more than two generations.

[mystic1110]

But isn't that your idea? That you are automatically part of a pantheon with your Progenitor. Leader of pantheon is the boss (remember the command ability is only once a week). The leader of a Pantheon can subordinate his pantheon to another pantheon.

if i am misinterpreting - may you place your pantheon idea in the form of AP action so i can get it? Thanks! :smallsmile:

[Emperor Demonking]

But isn't that your idea? That you are automatically part of a pantheon with your Progenitor. Leader of pantheon is the boss (remember the command ability is only once a week). The leader of a Pantheon can subordinate his pantheon to another pantheon.

if i am misinterpreting - may you place your pantheon idea in the form of AP action so i can get it? Thanks! :smallsmile:

I think the problem is that I don't know if you mean for the spawn to change pantheons when the father does, you must since most gods are created before pantheons are (that's the difference between my system and yours) while mine has the join occurs when the spawning happen and otherwise no link.

Its automatic so it doesn't cost AP. so I don't know how I'd put it in AP Action terms.

When a god is spawned they automatically become part of the pantheon or pantheon branch that originated with the primeval god who is at the head of the new gods family tree. Alternatively, if their immediate progenitor changed pantheon before the spawning of the new god then they can join that pantheon instead.

There would also be,
Change Pantheons (2 AP): A god may leave their current pantheon and instead become a member of an alternative pantheon.

Merge Pantheons (2 AP): This action can only be taken by the leader of a pantheon. Take the pantheon that the god controls rather than existing as an independent pantheon it becomes a junior branch of another pantheon. The leader of the other pantheon must agree to this. The members of the old pantheon are now considered members of the enlarged pantheon.

The benefits of pantheons would be the current (Blank Slate) rules of 1 bonus AP per 3 members.

[mystic1110]

When a god is spawned they automatically become part of the pantheon or pantheon branch that originated with the primeval god who is at the head of the new gods family tree. Alternatively, if their immediate progenitor changed pantheon before the spawning of the new god then they can join that pantheon instead.

Isn't that what I have?

[Emperor Demonking]

Isn't that what I have?

In that case your method doesn't really have a 'your dad's boss is your boss' because your dad will get a job after you're born. In Blank Slate, the percentage of gods created after their progenitor joined a pantheon is miniscule.

[ArcturusV]

Possible interesting thing would be to reduce AP costs for "Family" to forge alliances/pantheons among each other. It makes sense in some regards. Most historical pantheons have a lot more to do with blood bonds than they do with any sort of ideological alliance.

[Preaplanes]

Possible interesting thing would be to reduce AP costs for "Family" to forge alliances/pantheons among each other. It makes sense in some regards. Most historical pantheons have a lot more to do with blood bonds than they do with any sort of ideological alliance.

This does all bring up if it's possible for "male" and "female" gods to literally conceive another player Greek Mythology style. This would result in two progenitors.

[mystic1110]

In that case your method doesn't really have a 'your dad's boss is your boss' because your dad will get a job after you're born. In Blank Slate, the percentage of gods created after their progenitor joined a pantheon is miniscule.

True. But again I'm not noticing the difference between my thing and yours - unless you mean to say that a pantheon is automatically formed between a parent and a child?

So Pantheons will appear to be this:


When you a born into the game - you automatically join a pantheon between your progenitor and yourself, unless your progenitor is already part of a pantheon and in that case you will join that pantheon. A god may only be a member of one pantheon at a time.
Each member of the Pantheon gains 1 AP per four members, which can be used for anything and combined with normal AP. The leader of a pantheon gains 2 AP per four members. If the pantheon drops below three members, this AP ceases to function.
Being in an pantheon allows gods to share AP.
The pantheon is a sacred bond of fealty to the leader - gods in a pantheon aren't equals but instead sworn to the Leader. Once per week the leader of a pantheon may ORDER a god in their pantheon to perform any action they are capable of performing OR may ORDER the pantheon as a whole into a cause - disobedience results in eviction from the pantheon AND a loss of 2 AP. A god is never forced to use AP to fulfill an order.
No Alliance rules
Create Pantheon will be 3 AP
Join a pantheon will be 2 AP
Subordinate your pantheon to another pantheon will be 2 AP.


So first 8 gods born. A god can either make a pantheon or birth another god to get one for free. Then pantheons combine through the subordination action making larger and large pantheon. Seems to accomplish what we both had in mind?

[Emperor Demonking]

So first 8 gods born. A god can either make a pantheon or birth another god to get one for free. Then pantheons combine through the subordination action making larger and large pantheon. Seems to accomplish what we both had in mind?

Yes, that gives us both what we want.

[Elricaltovilla]

Any thoughts on what can be done to make it easier to remove things from the game. Not necessarily acts of destruction, but yeah, acts of destruction.

Like I said, the game just gets too cluttered too easily.

[mystic1110]

Isn't that what your proposed Doom mechanic is supposed to do? every once in a while a nation/race/land mass is completely wiped out with a thematically appropriate Uber curse?


Basically the way I see it:

Angel God
Winter God
Ocean God
Knowledge God

Angel God makes race, society, order, heroes, all on continent 1.
Winter God makes race, society, order, heroes, all on continent 2.
Ocean God makes race, society, order, heroes, all in the Ocean.
Knowledge God makes plane, library, and order within existing other two societies.

Angel God gets Doom. Doom should affect one of the other gods predominantly so roll 3 sided dice. Get Knowledge God.

Angel God makes his thematic curse the holy burning of the heretic library. THERE IS NO MORE LIBRARY. knowledge god obviously pissed. But since it was determined randomly the PLAYER should have no right to be upset.

more over the winter and ocean god both get doom and both get the angel god. Ocean god makes a massive tsunami and winter god freezes - encasing continent 1 within a giant mountain of Ice. Angel god lost his entire race, society, order, heroes. Again GOD can be upset - but due to the random nature of doom - PLAYER should not be.

This might encourage people to spread out their creations?

[Emperor Demonking]

I don't see why the player shouldn't be upset that the game system has made everything they've done thus far worthless. It isn't fully random either as since you've shown a player could destroy a library with a doom, or destroy pretty much everything at the player's discretion.

I also fail to see the desire for making it easier to destroy things. In Blank Slate, for example, the number of important things hasn't struck me as limiting.

[mystic1110]

Fair. Very fair. But i know where Elricaltovilla is coming from. Players have a tendency to complain at every curse - every set back - that targets anything they own.

The game gets cluttered because people only create, create, create - which is great - but it leaves no room for destruction.

The system should be set up in a way that will allow players to LOSE. So far the way it is set up - is if you really want to be left alone, you can complain enough about it in the OoC and you will be left alone. Even when it would make no sense.

If you are the God of Humans - and dragons attack over and over - and you are a fledging so you can actually do stuff on the material plane - why shouldn't you do FAMILYCIDE on every dragon? it doesn't stop the dragon god from countering (hopefully not just raising them up - and instead making vengeful dragon spirit ghosts that haunt the streets of human cities).

[Man on Fire]

Possible interesting thing would be to reduce AP costs for "Family" to forge alliances/pantheons among each other. It makes sense in some regards. Most historical pantheons have a lot more to do with blood bonds than they do with any sort of ideological alliance.

I woudl be okay with that. In fact, maybe lets simply reduce cost of entering pantheon/alliance featuring your progenitor to 1 AP, but make leaving them cost twice as much?


This does all bring up if it's possible for "male" and "female" gods to literally conceive another player Greek Mythology style. This would result in two progenitors.

Been there, done that. Twice. Youngest diety in the family was 3rd-4th generation.

To explain

First generation: Dead god of war from which corpse my character has been born. God of Chance has claims to this, because he made it possible,so let him be here. God of Nature, who sired son with mortal woman. God of Time, through he appeared arount time of third generation. Dead god of Good
Second Generation: My Godess of War. Another God of War, son of God of Nature. Godess of Air, daughter of God of Time. God of Hope, created from corpse of God of Good by God of Chance.
Third generation: God/Godess of Ambition - daughter of abovementioned two gods of war. My God of Blood, created by my Godess of War.
Fourth generation: Godess of Knowledge - daughter of Godess of Air and God of Blood (my new character once we wraped up plotline about killing my God of Blood). God of healing, created when Godess of Ambition by accident.

To be fair, most of them weren't parts of the same pantheons. The only two exceptions were Gods of Chance and Hope 9one pantheon) and God of Time with his daughter and granddaughter (another one, never did anything because it was created late in the game as means of aying "Stop acting stupid!" to other gods).


Simple, isn't it?


Not really what I was getting at: Zeus and Hades are both part of the Greek pantheon. Thor and Loki are both part of the Norse pantheon.

Even as part of the same pantheon, they don't necessarily get along.

However, Zeus and Thor, as well as Loki and Hades, share similarities that might make them close allies.

I have one thing to add here then - while individual members of pantheons can form alliances and act against pantheon's wishes, the leaders must always choose pantheon over any alliance they might have formed, would their needs come into conflict. At least openly.

For example - lets say that Loki and Ares joiend forces in plan to kill Thor and Zeus (allies). They attacked Thor together, but he overpowered them. Ares run to mount Olympus and Thor chased after him, caught him and started delivering the punishment.

Zeus wakes up and sees his ally beatign the crap out of his son, which he hates. So he strikes Thor with his lightning. Because Ares may be despicable, but it would make Greek Gods look weak and Zeus look like incompetent leader if their allies could walk into their home, beat somebody and go unpunished. Poseidon woudl probably saythey become vassals to Norse gods and try to usurp leadership.

If Zeus and Thor have any means of communication, that wouldn't reach ears of other gods, they could simply talk it out, agreen on Ares' punishment by his father and pretend Zeus throws Thor out of Olympus.

I don't know what mechanic penalties if any shoudl be imposed on leaders who break up this rule - I think it would be good to show beaing leader is mroe than just huge boost.

Also, do you still have those mechanics - Whisper (hides your actions from knowledge of other dieties) and Hearing (lets you know about actions made at whisper this turn)? Because there were some issues with them in our game, so I woudl liek to suggest ome fixes:

1) Estabilish that Hearing lets you know of all actions of other gods made at Whisper this sturn starting after you declared you use Hearing. We had guys who were dropping "I use hearing!" after posts in which important secret things happened in previous post this turn and and then acting like they knew about them.

2) Make it that you cannot declare you use Hearing every turn, but need to declare it separately for each turn. After our GM banned behavior from point above the same player started doing this.
2a) or at least make it so for passive hearing - that rule that higher level gods can do it for free in regard of weaker ones - or be gone with it alltogether. This one was also a big problem and left bad taste in everybody's mouths, because lower level players couldn't do anything without higher-ups meddling into it, even if they used whisper. It was grotesque when everybody and their mother knew about things that were supposed to be secret and ruined part of fun for new players.

3) Make stuff like this impossible:
GOne guy in our game created artifact that affected drasticaly rules of play for everybody and made it on whisper, after making sure nobody this turn used hearing. It was continuous artifact that worked all the time, yet if anybody tried to react to it, his creator yelled at them they don't know about it, because he used whisper when it was created. And rules supported him because they are vague enough for making interpretation "they simply don't say what to do in that situation" plausible.


Any thoughts on what can be done to make it easier to remove things from the game. Not necessarily acts of destruction, but yeah, acts of destruction.

Allow GM to destroy stuff left by lost players, if ano other player isn't using it.
Say, god of Magic made flying island, then dissapeared. If antoher god will take the island over, it stays. If not, GM can feel free to destroy it as a part of big cataclym that cleans such stuff every 8-10 rounds or so.

[mystic1110]

On Dm clean up - I agree - but the game still gets really cluttered even when there are 12+ active players.


GOne guy in our game created artifact that affected drasticaly rules of play for everybody and made it on whisper, after making sure nobody this turn used hearing. It was continuous artifact that worked all the time, yet if anybody tried to react to it, his creator yelled at them they don't know about it, because he used whisper when it was created. And rules supported him because they are vague enough for making interpretation "they simply don't say what to do in that situation" plausible.

That's nothing - a player in one game made a relic IN SECRET, which was big enough to store other Relics, and had the ability to make anyone who knew about - including gods forget it existed as soon as they looked away.

anyway . . .

We don't have whisper/listen actions anymore - but we should have rules for keeping things secret.

How about: you can use 1 AP to take any action in secret. Any player can spend 2 AP to thematically "find out" about your secret action.

[ShadowFireLance]

On Dm clean up - I agree - but the game still gets really cluttered even when there are 12+ active players.


That's nothing - a player in one game made a relic IN SECRET, which was big enough to store other Relics, and had the ability to make anyone who knew about - including gods forget it existed as soon as they looked away.

anyway . . .

We don't have whisper/listen actions anymore - but we should have rules for keeping things secret.

How about: you can use 1 AP to take any action in secret. Any player can spend 2 AP to thematically "find out" about your secret action.

how about 3 Ap to counter their knoweledge?

[rweird]

I am against a DOOM being able to destroy everything a player worked for, and I would be upset, more at the system for incorporating a way to destroy something you'd spent weeks and weeks building up randomly due to the actions of another. While DOOM is a cool mechanic, I don't think it should be able to screw someone that fully.

[mystic1110]

how about 3 Ap to counter their knoweledge?

No that wouldn't make much sense RP

1 AP: God A does something secretly
2 AP: God B finds out about that secret action
3 AP: God A makes God B forget?

The counter doesn't seem to work.


I am against a DOOM being able to destroy everything a player worked for, and I would be upset, more at the system for incorporating a way to destroy something you'd spent weeks and weeks building up randomly due to the actions of another. While DOOM is a cool mechanic, I don't think it should be able to screw someone that fully.

Alright, but then Doom will have to have a clear limitation - what exactly does everyone want/expect doom to do?

[ShadowFireLance]

I forgot to add that, I was typing quickly.

Why not However much the god spends on his creation/action +1 That he spends AP on it takes that much to learn about?
Ex:
God A: 10 Ap, Creates a Relic of Secrecy. 4 Ap, He doesn't want ANYONE to learn about it, so he spends 5 More Ap on it, to make it secrect Exxxtreme. 10 AP total.
God B: Wants to learn about it, so he spends a total of 11 Ap to learn about said relic.

That seem smart?

[mystic1110]

I forgot to add that, I was typing quickly.

Why not However much the god spends on his creation/action +1 That he spends AP on it takes that much to learn about?
Ex:
God A: 10 Ap, Creates a Relic of Secrecy. 4 Ap, He doesn't want ANYONE to learn about it, so he spends 5 More Ap on it, to make it secrect Exxxtreme. 10 AP total.
God B: Wants to learn about it, so he spends a total of 11 Ap to learn about said relic.

That seem smart?

Question is do you want that happening? I mean it would be alright if people vet their relics and stuff first in OoC. But its the rules presently and few people do it.

[Elricaltovilla]

No that wouldn't make much sense RP

1 AP: God A does something secretly
2 AP: God B finds out about that secret action
3 AP: God A makes God B forget?

The counter doesn't seem to work.



Alright, but then Doom will have to have a clear limitation - what exactly does everyone want/expect doom to do?

The doom shouldn't necessarily be destructive. It should be on the level of a high powered curse in my original post it was a 5 AP random target curse or if you choose to unleash the doom on purpose its a targeted 3 AP curse.

I don't think AP expenditures should be known at all. It shouldn't cost anything to hide what you're doing unless someone is actively watching you. Either they get an enhanced domain to get a CHANCE to know something is going on or they're expending effort to keep tabs on you. The onus of effort should be on the watcher, not the watched.

Gods ARE NOT omniscient. No, not even then.

[mystic1110]

The doom shouldn't necessarily be destructive. It should be on the level of a high powered curse in my original post it was a 5 AP random target curse or if you choose to unleash the doom on purpose its a targeted 3 AP curse.

Random affecting what - a specific god or a specific land mass - limit on the curse - can it kill every human? thats a curse action. etc. There is a lot of grey area. It would be useful to post a description of what you think it should do and what you think it should NOT do.




I don't think AP expenditures should be known at all. It shouldn't cost anything to hide what you're doing unless someone is actively watching you. Either they get an enhanced domain to get a CHANCE to know something is going on or they're expending effort to keep tabs on you. The onus of effort should be on the watcher, not the watched.

Gods ARE NOT omniscient. No, not even then.

Problem is people come up with all sorts of reasons why "they should" know.

Im god of the earth - it happened on the earth - I should know
Im god of knowledge - i should just know
My god knows everything his mortal followers know and one of my followers say him do whatever.
Etc.

AP expenditure makes it easy.

[Man on Fire]

Question is do you want that happening? I mean it would be alright if people vet their relics and stuff first in OoC. But its the rules presently and few people do it.

Well, then you should enforce it, GM should have right to destroy every relic that haven't been submitted in OoC first. We can add to it rule "you cannot create the same relic twice, even if the first one was destroyed" or "Nobody can create relic that duplicated effects for another relic that is, or at any point was existing in the game" so if their ultrapowerful relic they didn't wanted anybody to know about gets destroyed by angry GM, they cannot simply recreate it. One, two lessons and they'll learn.

[ShadowFireLance]

Question is do you want that happening? I mean it would be alright if people vet their relics and stuff first in OoC. But its the rules presently and few people do it.

I would personally love it, it would make perfect sense for a god like Sathogen to be in exsistance, but no one knows about him, not even a *caugh*certaingnomegodwithastupidmonument*Caugh*
god of knowledge would know.

[Elricaltovilla]

Random affecting what - a specific god or a specific land mass - limit on the curse - can it kill every human? thats a curse action. etc. There is a lot of grey area. It would be useful to post a description of what you think it should do and what you think it should NOT do.



Problem is people come up with all sorts of reasons why "they should" know.

Im god of the earth - it happened on the earth - I should know
Im god of knowledge - i should just know
My god knows everything his mortal followers know and one of my followers say him do whatever.
Etc.

AP expenditure makes it easy.

Every doom should kill all humans. I'd even let them go as far as making NEW humans just so that the doom can kill them off:smalltongue:

At the point of justifying why they should know, that's a MODs job to step in and say no. Also they get a roll, a chance to know, not a guaranteed success.

[ArcturusV]

Yeah, I'd like if a modicum of secrecy was just automatically assumed.

Things like Decrees and Plane Weaving, everyone knows because they're so large that you can't miss it. Land creation, sure, they might know it given a reason (like Geth who likes to hang out on the moon and stare at the world). Society stuff? Less so. If a society is sufficiently large and advanced those World Watcher gods might go, "Oh... there's a city there." But not really know anything about it until they decide to scope it out.

I've already been playing with that sort of methodology.

It'd change things a little, but not drastically. More reason to interact with the mortal world, as you'd actually have to interact in some fashion to really keep abreast of situations. Also allows for plot types that I haven't seen too much of yet. "Secrets" is the basis for a lot of different types of plot arcs after all.

[Preaplanes]

Right, well, I've sent a rough draft, more of a concept really, to Myst.

It's pre-alpha, so I'm not releasing it to this thread quiiite yet. I DO feel I've earned the ability to say "I did what I said I'd do, Imma go play DA2 now"

[Rizban]

Just a thought for you guys, but the original rules for LoC can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83820) and here (http://locitp.mornproductions.com/DivineActions). I'm not saying they're the best, but they worked exceptionally well the first time we ever ran an LoC on this site. If you aren't using that as some sort of reference point, I think it's worth looking back at them.

That second link also has the majority of that world recorded in a more or less playable format for campaign use, which is supposed to be the primary purpose of LoC: a world building exercise to create a fleshed out campaign setting.

[ShadowFireLance]

Just a thought for you guys, but the original rules for LoC can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83820) and here (http://locitp.mornproductions.com/DivineActions). I'm not saying they're the best, but they worked exceptionally well the first time we ever ran an LoC on this site. If you aren't using that as some sort of reference point, I think it's worth looking back at them.

That second link also has the majority of that world recorded in a more or less playable format for campaign use, which is supposed to be the primary purpose of LoC: a world building exercise to create a fleshed out campaign setting.

...Holy crap, I wonder if anyone would be willing to play that...

[Rizban]

Well, I was willing to play it and run a few games using those rules and similar ones way back in the day.

I got out of LoC when it turned into a god game rather than a collaborative creation project.

Hell, the Aldhaven D&D game that's been running the past 3 years on this forum was originally set in that campaign world, though it has evolved well past that now due to the nature of the game. I wouldn't consider them the same world anymore.

[ShadowFireLance]

So You might get back in if one was to run that rule set again? Interesting.

[Rizban]

It's less to do with the rule set and more to do with the mindset. I don't want to play a god game. I would be willing to participate in a collaborative world building project that happens to take the form of a game from the perspective of deities. However, I call dibs on not being the scribe.

Also, for historical reference: IC Thread 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83986), IC Thread 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90355), IC Thread 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96047).

[Preaplanes]

It's less to do with the rule set and more to do with the mindset. I don't want to play a god game. I would be willing to participate in a collaborative world building project that happens to take the form of a game from the perspective of deities. However, I call dibs on not being the scribe.

Also, for historical reference: IC Thread 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83986), IC Thread 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90355), IC Thread 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96047).

Aye, I feel you for this. I feel that, if a LoC game was done well, it could make for an interesting base for a campaign setting. Kinda why I decided to sign up for TBS in the first place.

Which may be one reason I don't like the "I'm gonna smash you" mindset. Much too easy to break things that were hard to make.

[ShadowFireLance]

Aye, I feel you for this. I feel that, if a LoC game was done well, it could make for an interesting base for a campaign setting. Kinda why I decided to sign up for TBS in the first place.

Which may be one reason I don't like the "I'm gonna smash you" mindset. Much too easy to break things that were hard to make.

*InnocentWhistle* (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283976)

[Rizban]

Oh, I have no problem with smashing things. I would even go so far as to say that things need to be smashed, unless you're going for Peace Planet, which I daresay would make a droll campaign setting. But the collaborative aspect must be maintained. You don't smash someone else's toys without discussing it with them previously or at the very least allowing them a way out of it.

Case 1: Two players talk to each other and come to an agreement. Player 1 allows Player 2 to wipe out his civilization for the sake of the story.
Good!

Case 2: Player 1 sends a hoard of pestilence carrying rats into the civilization of Player 2 and describes the debilitating plagues that start wiping out the populace. Player 1 did not collaborate with Player 2 on this before hand. Acceptable
Player 2's possible options:

Create a cure. Good!
Create a natural predator for the rats that drives their population down. Good!
Move the civilization. Good!
Let the heathens die! They should have been more faithful in the first place! Good!
Spend AP and go NU UH NEVER HAPPENED LULZ! BAD!


Case 3: Player 1 summons meteors that obliterate a continent and its people in its entirety, all of which belonged to othe players, without getting any of their approval first. BAD!

Case 4: Player 1 kills Player 2's hero and eats its soul never to be resurrected again.
Player 2 gave permission first. Good!
Player 2 did not give permission first. BAD!



Basically, players should either work out a basic plot and agree on the outcomes with another player before doing anything that can not be undone. If something isn't worked out in advance, then it's still okay to START things, but you have to give the other player an easy out and time to respond. You should never FINISH something against another player without their input. You should always RESOLVE an issue and never simple negate it.

[mystic1110]

Rizban thanks for the original rules!! I always wanted LOC to be about world building, that's my favorite part of the game. I always wanted to make posts from the perspective of a mortal - showing how random mortals worship the different gods and the myths they make from their actions

Problem is the rules become more and more complex - all in order to avoid OOC fights. I played in some of the games with original rules and the OOC fights were out of hand. Not that newer games are any better. OOC fights drive a lot of players away from these games.


Oh, I have no problem with smashing things. I would even go so far as to say that things need to be smashed, unless you're going for Peace Planet, which I daresay would make a droll campaign setting. But the collaborative aspect must be maintained. You don't smash someone else's toys without discussing it with them previously or at the very least allowing them a way out of it.

I agree - problem is few players ever agree to let themselves lose. All to often people just get into OOC debates on why they should win or why someone else should lose - no one agrees to anything and nothing gets done - or stuff gets done and there is an OOC fight about it.

Also I'm going to share Preaplanes' RCR draft for general discussion.

R.ANDOM C.ONFLICT R.ESOLUTION VERSION 2.0.0 ALPHA

Warning: The RCR System is intended for use when a dispute between players occurs, or when two parties agree to determine things based on chance using the system. It is not intended for use as the primary decider of in-game conflict. It is preferable to discuss what you want to do with your roleplay partner(s), and then proceed to do so, though if the two involved really do wish to use the RCR system anyway, then they are of course allowed to do so.

Note: any numbers here are placeholders, and need fine tuning. The primary intent is to show a more balanced system that doesn't have Cupid smacking down Odin, but still has enough variation to make would-be bullies sweat.

Things to do:

fine-tune numbers based on AP cost, though this may be a case of “I'm drawing art to your story” vs “I'm writing story to your art”.

add mortals' rolls... nations, societies, orders, etc. This is the real stickler, but I'm confident I can figure out a way to make it work.

figure out what, if anything, to do with Infusions spent on actual Infusions; the wide variety of ways they can be spent muddies the system something fierce.


THE BASICS

The determining factor of an RCR is a simple sum, made of two parts: the base and the multiplier.

Each god's base is determined by its divine level, and by any Allies the god is fighting alongside. The multiplier is then added, starting at 1.00, and increasing additively with each bonus. In this way, a sword wielded by a fledgling will be less potent than one wielded by an Elder, and a more of Monument's overwhelming power is harnessed by a Greater Deity than a Lesser Deity. Hence, it becomes more and more difficult to fight another the further away from one's “weight class” one becomes. In general, even a highly fortified Fledgling will stand little chance against the wrath of its betters.

By using additive multipliers, rather than base numbers, it becomes very difficult to game the system with anything but seniority. It also has the benefit that it's the rolls that are multiplied, making 200% of a result of 7 not as good as 150% of a result of 10. By doing this, we add advantages, but keep chance that makes any anydice junkie (such as myself) weigh the pros and cons of their actions.



Each level of deity grants 1d12 RCR per 2 domains

1d12 Fledgling
2d12 Lesser
3d12 Intermediate
4d12 Greater
6d12 Elder

I actually upped the size of the dice, rather than their number, to increase the range of the outcomes. More dice adds to both mean and certainty, but bigger dice adds only to mean, which is irrelevant if that mean is the standard. The size of the dice is almost completely arbitrary. Besides, I think it may be the only time someone rolls a d12 outside of rolling a Barbarian.

I may need to change the size of the dice when I add Nations and Societies and Orders, but for now that'll be the draft standard.


BONUSES

Bonuses apply only when the circumstance would call for it. For example, a God has a relic that can cure any ailment or drive away areas of pestilence, that would only apply an RCR against a God that is known to fight with diseases. If the god has displayed that tendency, you are given the bonus regardless of its use or disuse due to effectively reducing the enemy god's threat.

Bonuses CANNOT be described as a debuff for your opponents; taking control of your opponents in any way, whether by forcing behavior or taking control of the actions, is considered God Moding, which despite the name, is not permitted. Mind control and fear effects can exist, but all deities are considered immune. Nor can bonuses be described in any form of absolute; “Indestructible”, “Unstoppable”, “Impenetrable”, “Impervious”, and all such terms are never to be used. One valid relic is just as powerful as another in the hands of equals, and you are expected to roleplay this appropriately.




Relics- Relics each grant a +.15 to your multiplier for the gods they are made for, whether it was made for its maker or not. Any other deity receives a +.10 to the multiplier. Relics that gain an RCR bonus must be described as being applicable to a combat situation. While some relics may only work on some gods (as aforementioned anti-pestilence relic), most are considered effective against all.

A god's reactions may be magnificent, but even gods have their limits. In this case, a deity can wield up to 6 RCR-granting relics simultaneously.

Allied Deities- When fighting with an allied Deity, one is allowed to combine hit dice and bonuses of both and use that as the total. This is the only time this is allowed. In addition to the combination of previous totals, each Deity receives +4 base for the first ally he/she is fighting alongside, a +3 for the second, and a +2 base for every ally beyond that.

Alliances must be forged between specific individuals. Once an alliance is formed, they cannot be added to afterward. This would require a new Alliance action. However, every member of the Alliance must have met the prerequisites for the action for every other member.

Should one member of an alliance walk out of an alliance, or take any form of hostile action against that deity for any reason beyond the command of a Pantheon leader, that alliance is dissolved as a whole.

Note: I feel it would be best to emphasize teamwork with the Alliance action. If two or more deities haven't closely worked side-by-side in a friendly manner for a significant time, with a large amount of interaction between the two (and not just the environment/situation around them), such that they would know how the other fights and trust each other to watch each others' backs, I would strongly encourage the mod to disallow the forging of an Alliance. This will encourage cooperation and the use of RP partners, and give an exclusive benefit for doing so.

Reducing the bonus to +2 after the first ally greatly reduces the rampancy of its potency, but by the new system, is the only way one can increase the base power of a god without , making it a highly valuable action. It also restricts who can join an Alliance, making it a move one needs to think about before one makes it.

Adding the dissolving rule to the Alliance is designed to prevent oversized alliances gaming the system and acting like an unstoppable street gang among the gods.



Monuments- Each monument a god controls within the same plane grants a +.20 multiplier. A god is limited to the bonuses of two such monuments; beyond this, a god becomes unable to handle the raw power being sent out by the monuments. The multiplier of a monument is increased to +.30 when a Monument is also a Sanctuary, so long as one is fighting within the sanctuary itself.


This makes it hard to storm Olympus whilst Zeus is there; a Monument/Sanctuary is like a fortress, making gods more formidable while playing on their own home turf. However, there are still limits on this form of formidability. The relatively small payoff compared to the Relics is intentional; this prevents them from being made early on, saving them for late-game when one has stuff they need to protect and have already hit the limits on personal power by other means.


Ascendant Mortals- Heroes or Leaders alone stand no chance against Gods.

Seekers, however, are able to harm a gods, granting anything that it fights beside it a +.10 multiplier for each Seeker, up to a team of five (for a total of +.50).

A Legend is practically a god, but of mortal descent, lacking divine power (AP) and incapable of gaining domains. Any Legend you control is considered a Fledgling Deity in an Alliance with its controller, granting the same base bonus for that god (but only for that god and the Legend), as well as adding a separate 1d12 with its own multipliers.

A Legend is actually capable of rolling by itself, without the assistance of its Deity. A legend's roll is 1d12, plus any multipliers from applicable Artifacts he is wielding.

Artifacts being wielded by a Legend each grant +.15, and a legend is capable of wielding up to six.


Doing this makes the easily-acquired Heroes less valuable, but makes the need-to-be RPed Seekers and Legends much more so, encouraging the RPing of mortals of power to do the gods' bidding. Artifacts can make a Legend comparable to a Fledgling Deity buffing with Relics, but beyond that they are mortal tools.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. Seems like the RCR thing would reward people for using more bland, generic artifacts, relics, and monuments. The bonus for just having 1 is pretty small, you'd have to make them very broad in their definitions to stack up as many as possible. A fledgling deity with a Relic would only get any appreciable bonus on a 6+ or 10+ depending on how we deal with Fractions. So you'd need to stack up a lot of them to have an appreciable effect.

Course, the lack of flat bonuses outside of Alliance does mean that it comes down to mostly who climbs the divine ranks higher. Which may be good, may be bad. Depends on what sort of outcomes you want to happen. As I see it, climbing divine rank already has enough of a combat edge to it by giving you more AP to work with over time (And domain bonuses if we end up using those), that making Divine Rank also the most significant modifier to RCR just seems to be... well... rewarding those who are already in the lead and spitting in the eye of those who aren't. Course it's all number of dice as well so it's also really swingy. Depending on a mix of the worst luck ever and the best luck ever an unarmed solo Fledgling Deity might kick an Elder Deity out of his Monument and Sanctuary while wielding his two favorite Relics.

Not likely, but possible.

But then again it's almost impossible for a Lesser Deity who is similarly barricaded up in his Fortress and wielding Relics has almost no chance against a higher ranking god.

I dunno. It's just that seems very swingy. And likely to produce the sort of results that, in my experience so far, results in people arguing in the OOC and calling stuff BS.

It does also support Siege Mindsets as the biggest RCR boosters are Alliances requiring you to stick to your buddies all the time, and holing up in your own defensive fortifications. Which seems to promote a lack of interaction. Or at least a lack of aggressive interaction. Which would lead to a problem that I often see with games like this (Lacking the DM/Player relationship), in that they eventually stagnate and turn into, in the words of a friend of mine, "Sit, chat, and hump like bunnies RPs", where little if anything else happens.

Granted we're creating in this game so there is something else to do. But it's a tendency games like this tend to have a bit. So I wouldn't think rules promoting that sort of behavior would be really decent.

The only other concern being that it's pointed out that short of Seekers and Legends mortals "stand no chance". Now I don't think they should go around killing Gods necessarily. But I do think they should stand a chance. Or rather stand a chance not to just pointlessly and powerlessly suffer. With entire nations being entirely helpless against even the most minor of deities. I liked the distinction where a Society may not be able to "harm" a God, but they could resist a God.

[Man on Fire]

Oh, I have no problem with smashing things. I would even go so far as to say that things need to be smashed, unless you're going for Peace Planet, which I daresay would make a droll campaign setting. But the collaborative aspect must be maintained. You don't smash someone else's toys without discussing it with them previously or at the very least allowing them a way out of it.

Case 1: Two players talk to each other and come to an agreement. Player 1 allows Player 2 to wipe out his civilization for the sake of the story.
Good!

Case 2: Player 1 sends a hoard of pestilence carrying rats into the civilization of Player 2 and describes the debilitating plagues that start wiping out the populace. Player 1 did not collaborate with Player 2 on this before hand. Acceptable
Player 2's possible options:

Create a cure. Good!
Create a natural predator for the rats that drives their population down. Good!
Move the civilization. Good!
Let the heathens die! They should have been more faithful in the first place! Good!
Spend AP and go NU UH NEVER HAPPENED LULZ! BAD!


Case 3: Player 1 summons meteors that obliterate a continent and its people in its entirety, all of which belonged to othe players, without getting any of their approval first. BAD!

Case 4: Player 1 kills Player 2's hero and eats its soul never to be resurrected again.
Player 2 gave permission first. Good!
Player 2 did not give permission first. BAD!



Basically, players should either work out a basic plot and agree on the outcomes with another player before doing anything that can not be undone. If something isn't worked out in advance, then it's still okay to START things, but you have to give the other player an easy out and time to respond. You should never FINISH something against another player without their input. You should always RESOLVE an issue and never simple negate it.

As guy who played the "first edition" I these are words of wisdom. bet things we ever did were effort of colaboration, somethimes even four people working on combined post at the same time.

Through one thing to add here: if something is said to belong to everybody then it's fair game for anything with it without asking. We had this thing with Elves in our game. They were created by twelve different gods in one colaborative effort, and were said to belong to everybody, all players. As the time passed most of the gods who created them either dissapeared or moved to do different things. God of Balance and his half-god (who was enitre court of demons counting as one diety, because why the heck no) took care of elves mostly, other gods aiding things from time to time. However, at some point his player became posessive and protective of them, and started complaining whenever anybody did anything bad to race he agreed belongs to everyone.

Speaking of which, another thing that we should be warned off: retcons. Sometimes there are small things that doen't require spending AP, that go into our posts. We should keep in mind those things are going to be canon and forbid other players from retconning them, unless they make absolutely no sense. We had some situations regarding elves and god of balance's player in our game. We had situation regarding huge war between kingdoms of humans and elves and alliance of local orc equivalent and mutants. More in spoiler:

It went like this - god of heroism created monsters for known races to kill, so they can become legendary heroes. God of mutants saw some Elves hunting a monster, went pissed and invaded elven-human kingdoms. God of Balance gets a monologue how god of mutants is deluded and fool and no Elf would ever hurt an animal. And while yes, elves in the setting loved nature, they were also said to be proud, vain, prone to violence, regarding everybody else as lesser beings, worshiping god of heroes who wasin't only one of their creators but also one of their most beloved dieties.

After war ended I made a post about armies of not-orcs slowly losing the ground and falling back, while dramatically fighting for every inch of land, to the point of earning the respect of Elves. I think I actually spend Ap for this one, but I might be wrong.
God of Balance goes "Lul nope, Elves blitzkrieged entire orc kingdom without breaking a sweat".

then he went on trying to sway other players on his side to be more pro-elves. he basically told me my godess of war shouldn't support actions agaisnt elves, because they worship her. Race that was already estabilished started to hate their most beloved god, god of heroes, because he blessed not-orcs during the war. And they were supposed to worship godess whose first action in the game was steal hundreds of their children and turn them into not-orcs, raise them to hate Elves, and at this point had also created large not-orc empire next to borders of their kingdoms, had that empire strike an alliance with mutants to invade said kingdoms, sent her son to fight on side of said alliance and once war was over created terrorist cells of conquered not-orcs inside their kingdoms. But no, they worship her and hate guy who once did minor thing against them. And worse, he told me my godess was supposed to abbandon her own race and now support Elves because she belives in survival of the fittest and Elves won war with her people. In response to that my godess murdered every Elf who worshipped her, because she fels race who tries to praise somebody who did so mucb ad to them doesn't deserve to worship her.

[Preaplanes]

Hmm. Seems like the RCR thing would reward people for using more bland, generic artifacts, relics, and monuments. The bonus for just having 1 is pretty small, you'd have to make them very broad in their definitions to stack up as many as possible. A fledgling deity with a Relic would only get any appreciable bonus on a 6+ or 10+ depending on how we deal with Fractions. So you'd need to stack up a lot of them to have an appreciable effect.

Course, the lack of flat bonuses outside of Alliance does mean that it comes down to mostly who climbs the divine ranks higher. Which may be good, may be bad. Depends on what sort of outcomes you want to happen. As I see it, climbing divine rank already has enough of a combat edge to it by giving you more AP to work with over time (And domain bonuses if we end up using those), that making Divine Rank also the most significant modifier to RCR just seems to be... well... rewarding those who are already in the lead and spitting in the eye of those who aren't. Course it's all number of dice as well so it's also really swingy. Depending on a mix of the worst luck ever and the best luck ever an unarmed solo Fledgling Deity might kick an Elder Deity out of his Monument and Sanctuary while wielding his two favorite Relics.

Not likely, but possible.

But then again it's almost impossible for a Lesser Deity who is similarly barricaded up in his Fortress and wielding Relics has almost no chance against a higher ranking god.

I dunno. It's just that seems very swingy. And likely to produce the sort of results that, in my experience so far, results in people arguing in the OOC and calling stuff BS.

It does also support Siege Mindsets as the biggest RCR boosters are Alliances requiring you to stick to your buddies all the time, and holing up in your own defensive fortifications. Which seems to promote a lack of interaction. Or at least a lack of aggressive interaction. Which would lead to a problem that I often see with games like this (Lacking the DM/Player relationship), in that they eventually stagnate and turn into, in the words of a friend of mine, "Sit, chat, and hump like bunnies RPs", where little if anything else happens.

Granted we're creating in this game so there is something else to do. But it's a tendency games like this tend to have a bit. So I wouldn't think rules promoting that sort of behavior would be really decent.

The only other concern being that it's pointed out that short of Seekers and Legends mortals "stand no chance". Now I don't think they should go around killing Gods necessarily. But I do think they should stand a chance. Or rather stand a chance not to just pointlessly and powerlessly suffer. With entire nations being entirely helpless against even the most minor of deities. I liked the distinction where a Society may not be able to "harm" a God, but they could resist a God.

Hence "Pre-alpha". It's a proof of concept at the moment.

It also prevents a Lesser swinging around 8 Relics from smacking down an Elder. As it is now, the most effective way to gain power is to stack Relics and nothing but Relics, save for joining a Pantheon to farm some more AP (hell, it's a lot more efficient than leveling up will ever be!)

And for large groups of mortals, yes, they stand a better chance than Heroes do. To put it in D&D terms, your L14 Sorcerer isn't going to do much against a God. An entire New York City of L1 Commoners, though? Yeah, that'd do it.

[ShadowFireLance]

Preplanes RcR thing is a little whacked, but...
I think i found out how to work it right, would anyone mind if I posted my Own version of it?

[mystic1110]

Preplanes RcR thing is a little whacked, but...
I think i found out how to work it right, would anyone mind if I posted my Own version of it?

No - go ahead :smallsmile:.

On another note I was thinking: Do people like the direction the LOC rules are heading in? I.E. More complex. OR do you want to move back towards the original rules and changes most of the other rules to examples of what could be done - and the limitations of the original rules?

Other than that hopefully tomorrow I'll post the second update of the AP actions. . . .

[ShadowFireLance]

No - go ahead :smallsmile:.

On another note I was thinking: Do people like the direction the LOC rules are heading in? I.E. More complex. OR do you want to move back towards the original rules and changes most of the other rules to examples of what could be done - and the limitations of the original rules?

Other than that hopefully tomorrow I'll post the second update of the AP actions. . . .


I would (Personally) prefer they get more complex...cause the more the better.

[Rizban]

If I were going to be involved, I'd prefer a simple rule set that allows you to do pretty much anything and have the game focused on collaborative creation than on trying to make sure everyone plays by the rules.

[Emperor Demonking]

On another note I was thinking: Do people like the direction the LOC rules are heading in? I.E. More complex. OR do you want to move back towards the original rules and changes most of the other rules to examples of what could be done - and the limitations of the original rules?


I'd say the current rules - with gods divorced from D&D (no level 20 wizard/level 20 sorcerer etc) - is simpler than the original rules. I do prefer more fluff rules over the hard self-referential rules e.g. relics. I think an important thing is that its a story about gods creating a world and not a story about gods themselves; so, to give an example, how the storm gods hammer works is far less important than the relationships between his storm giants and the rest of the world.

I think actions like relics, monuments, sanctums etc. in their current form encourage a competitive story about gods rather than focusing on building the setting. I'd rather actions like that were cheaper, weaker and fluffier.

[Preaplanes]

I'd say the current rules - with gods divorced from D&D (no level 20 wizard/level 20 sorcerer etc) - is simpler than the original rules. I do prefer more fluff rules over the hard self-referential rules e.g. relics. I think an important thing is that its a story about gods creating a world and not a story about gods themselves; so, to give an example, how the storm gods hammer works is far less important than the relationships between his storm giants and the rest of the world.

I think actions like relics, monuments, sanctums etc. in their current form encourage a competitive story about gods rather than focusing on building the setting. I'd rather actions like that were cheaper, weaker and fluffier.

Hence the severe nerfing of pretty much everything but Alliances and Ascendant Mortals that you've put some effort into in my proposed system. It's not SUPPOSED to be used often. Shakier footing against other Gods would encourage more world-building and less

"Smashy Smashy"
"Grr, you make me mad"
"I'm gonna break your toys"
"I'm gonna make a decree to smite you back"
"Well I'm gonna make a Monument and smite YOU back"
"Well I'm gonna grab a bunch of relics then beat you down!"
"But I'm an elder! You're just a Lesser!"
"So what? RCR says I can do it, so nyah nyah, your monument is mine now!"
"Cheater!"
"Am not!"

I'm one of those RPG players that, unless we have DISTINCT factions with a mod-run story, doesn't like PvP. Unless it's a video game, then it's fine so long as you don't lose/break your items.

[mystic1110]

If I were going to be involved, I'd prefer a simple rule set that allows you to do pretty much anything and have the game focused on collaborative creation than on trying to make sure everyone plays by the rules.

You are involved :smallsmile:.

I was thinking of a sort of middle ground. A lot of actions can be deleted IMO like scourges/praises. Otherwise I don't think more complex rules prevent collaborative creation.

In fact I think what is missing that is equally important to AP action/ Infusion / RCR /pantheon rules is a "How to Play Section"

A short draft:

How to play Lords of Creation.

This game is many things - it is about the adventures and plots of the Gods, the tribulations of mortals - but most importantly it is about the world. This game is not about winning or losing - it is about writing. Through collaborative story telling the hope is to build a setting with an unique identity and an unique history. To help here are some hints:

Work with other players to tell a story: It is encouraged for you to workout plot threads with other players before hand - usually the more players/gods involved in a clear concise vision of the future - the more awesome and grand that future is.

Allow your God to lose: Endless victory is boring. Gods lose sometimes. Even the best laid plans are laid bare. But instead of being the boring invincible super-being, losing allows you to develop your character even more - to explore their desires and motivations - their feelings and insecurities.

Your God can never be omniscient: Your god is fallible. Your god can only know information that it would have reasonable access to. Knowing another Gods name before that God ever announced their name is unreasonable, knowing another gods name when they whispered it to another god in the void when you were elsewhere is unreasonable, knowing that god's name when they mention it in the same room as you - reasonable. Seriously just be reasonable.

Always bring up big AP expenditures in the OOC thread first: Want to kill all humans? Want to destroy the world? These actions are NOT necessarily banned - but they are HUGE events. As such bring them up to the other players to get their thoughts on it before hand. And if they turn you down - try to convince them, but realize that eventually no just means no. This goes for any huge AP expenditure like relics or decrees - anything that would change the make up the world.

Develop the world: Don't just make a society - really describe the society. Don't just make a race, tell us all about that race. Everything about that race. Don't just make a flaming sword - give that sword a baler back story. Don't just make a plane - make another world with its own features and races and objects. Don't just make a hero - make us actually care about that hero.

Don't compete with other players, Compete with their gods - this game is not about making the most powerful god. It is not about beating another player. If another player makes a god diametrically opposed to you - GREAT! Reach out to them and work out a history between your two gods. Are they the rival? The worthy Foe? or do your gods just plane hate each other? Are your gods secretly in love? Make a story for your gods. Players ALWAYS work together, even when their gods aren't

[Preaplanes]

You are involved :smallsmile:.

I was thinking of a sort of middle ground. A lot of actions can be deleted IMO like scourges/praises. Otherwise I don't think more complex rules prevent collaborative creation.

In fact I think what is missing that is equally important to AP action/ Infusion / RCR /pantheon rules is a "How to Play Section"

A short draft:

How to play Lords of Creation.

This game is many things - it is about the adventures and plots of the Gods, the tribulations of mortals - but most importantly it is about the world. This game is not about winning or losing - it is about writing. Through collaborative story telling the hope is to build a setting with an unique identity and an unique history. To help here are some hints:

Work with other players to tell a story: It is encouraged for you to workout plot threads with other players before hand - usually the more players/gods involved in a clear concise vision of the future - the more awesome and grand that future is.

Allow your God to lose: Endless victory is boring. Gods lose sometimes. Even the best laid plans are laid bare. But instead of being the boring invincible super-being, losing allows you to develop your character even more - to explore their desires and motivations - their feelings and insecurities.

Your God can never be omniscient: Your god is fallible. Your god can only know information that it would have reasonable access to. Knowing another Gods name before that God ever announced their name is unreasonable, knowing another gods name when they whispered it to another god in the void when you were elsewhere is unreasonable, knowing that god's name when they mention it in the same room as you - reasonable. Seriously just be reasonable.

Always bring up big AP expenditures in the OOC thread first: Want to kill all humans? Want to destroy the world? These actions are NOT necessarily banned - but they are HUGE events. As such bring them up to the other players to get their thoughts on it before hand. And if they turn you down - try to convince them, but realize that eventually no just means no. This goes for any huge AP expenditure like relics or decrees - anything that would change the make up the world.

Develop the world: Don't just make a society - really describe the society. Don't just make a race, tell us all about that race. Everything about that race. Don't just make a flaming sword - give that sword a baler back story. Don't just make a plane - make another world with its own features and races and objects. Don't just make a hero - make us actually care about that hero.

Don't compete with other players, Compete with their gods - this game is not about making the most powerful god. It is not about beating another player. If another player makes a god diametrically opposed to you - GREAT! Reach out to them and work out a history between your two gods. Are they the rival? The worthy Foe? or do your gods just plane hate each other? Are your gods secretly in love? Make a story for your gods. Players ALWAYS work together, even when their gods aren't

I think it may help the players feel more comfortable losing if the stakes are well defined and reasonable. An RCR bully could say the stakes are high, and then when you protest, he'll roll RCR and beat you every time, then do whatever he pleases. It's just not an equitable system as it is now, so nobody likes to lose and people are DAMNED AFRAID of it. And to be perfectly frank, as it is now, they should be. The game would rapidly turn into a poker game, with the guy who has the biggest share of the pot going all in every time, and because of his biggest share, always has the best hands, and eventually clearing everybody else out.

[mystic1110]

I think it may help the players feel more comfortable losing if the stakes are well defined and reasonable. An RCR bully could say the stakes are high, and then when you protest, he'll roll RCR and beat you every time, then do whatever he pleases. It's just not an equitable system as it is now, so nobody likes to lose and people are DAMNED AFRAID of it. And to be perfectly frank, as it is now, they should be.

Fair enough:

What should be the stakes of losing then?

[rweird]

Fair enough:

What should be the stakes of losing then?

Agreed upon before hand, if one person doesn't want to risk there society or whatever though the other wants to destroy it, discuss it OoC, if no agreement is reached, ask a mod to come up with a compromise.

[mystic1110]

I thought this was for the stakes of losing at RCR.

If we're talking about agreed upon before hand Losses - than i'm assuming RCR has nothing to do with it. Two players can always agree to get into a fight and the outcome of that fight with the loss meaning ANYTHING without using RCR. The problem as Preaplanes pointed out is what happens if you lose in RCR? That fear drives people to care more about RCR than they should. Basically the trouble isn't deciding the limitations of non-RCR loss since that always involves agreement but RCR loss.

[Emperor Demonking]

Agreed upon before hand, if one person doesn't want to risk there society or whatever though the other wants to destroy it, discuss it OoC, if no agreement is reached, ask a mod to come up with a compromise.

Then what's the point of RCR? RCR is to encourage the compromise, if the mod is required to do a compromise for the RCR then we might as well skip RCR all together.

[Preaplanes]

Agreed upon before hand, if one person doesn't want to risk there society or whatever though the other wants to destroy it, discuss it OoC, if no agreement is reached, ask a mod to come up with a compromise.

I'd agree with this. RCR based conflicts should be monitored by the mods.

For example, one side is completely overrun. That side still has pockets of resistance (like in Terminator or Red Dawn), or groups of survivors or refugees escape and try to find shelter (like in every single Zombie movie). The winning party can't just "kill 'em all!" unless that's agreed upon first.


Then what's the point of RCR? RCR is to encourage the compromise, if the mod is required to do a compromise for the RCR then we might as well skip RCR all together.

Well it's failing miserably. There, I said it. There's no "compromise". If I was rolling a War God and packing enough relics to make Batman look like a one-trick pony, I sure as hell wouldn't give any quarter. If I said I killed your god, BAM! Your god's dead. I'll take your trinkets off its corpse. That land doesn't agree with me? BAM! It's a graveyard now.

[Emperor Demonking]

I'd like to make my suggestion for an RCR system

At a base both players roll a 1d12.
- If a god is involved, the god with the highest divine rank add +1 to their dice.
- If a god is involved, the god with the highest number of combat relics gets + 1.
- If civilizations are involved, the side with the greatest number of nations gets + 1.
- If civilizations are involved, the side with the greatest sum of relevant orders gets + 1
- If civilizations are involved, the side with the greatest sum of relevant advanced or magical concepts gets + 1.
- If mortals are involved, the side with the greatest sum of heroes and seekers gets +1.

[mystic1110]

Well it's FAILING MISERABLY. There, I said it. There's no "compromise". If I was rolling a War God and packing enough relics to make Batman look like a one-trick pony, I sure as hell wouldn't give any quarter. If I said I killed your god, BAM! Your god's dead. I'll take your trinkets off its corpse. That land doesn't agree with me? BAM! It's a graveyard now.

Isn't that exactly what we're trying to fix? 1) with a more mathematically logical system (so far yours - although you should probably take out the alliance rules as I think were taking out bonuses for that and alliances in general and going with the new pantheon system. . . 2) coming up with limitations of what happens when you DO lose in RCR

[Preaplanes]

Isn't that exactly what we're trying to fix? 1) with a more mathematically logical system (so far yours - although you should probably take out the alliance rules as I think were taking out bonuses for that and alliances in general and going with the new pantheon system. . . 2) coming up with limitations of what happens when you DO lose in RCR

I'm well aware, and I was illustrating my point that the current system just wasn't working. And yes, I was intentionally curt with Demonking, my apologies.

Anyway, back to figuring out what to fix.



I added the maximum on the number of relics so that we don't have anybody with a monopoly on power. Aside from RP partners and Legends (characters youv'e spent a long time raising up from nothing), there is no way past Elder Deity, 6 custom-made relics, 2 monuments and a Sanctuary. That's it; you've reached the end-game. Enjoy world building, but don't expect any more weight to throw around.

And if you want to get rid of Alliances, that's fine by me. I'm just here to try to add a little more sense and a little more risk to the RCR system. It isn't "Random" if you can get your numbers to 100% victory rate, after all.

[rweird]

I mean, if one person wants to completely wipe out a society or something and the other doesn't want the stakes that high, and they can't compromise, the mod comes up with something like loss of half the land or the destruction of the capital and the society's dispersal, instead of its complete obliteration.

[Preaplanes]

I mean, if one person wants to completely wipe out a society or something and the other doesn't want the stakes that high, and they can't compromise, the mod comes up with something like loss of half the land or the destruction of the capital and the society's dispersal, instead of its complete obliteration.

And I'd agree.

[Emperor Demonking]

I mean, if one person wants to completely wipe out a society or something and the other doesn't want the stakes that high, and they can't compromise, the mod comes up with something like loss of half the land or the destruction of the capital and the society's dispersal, instead of its complete obliteration.

That's why you create a RCR where both sides can win. If you're going further than I'm comfortable then I'll go further than you're comfortable with, so we'll get a compromise that we're both comfortable with. RCR isn't something that should be rolled, it is something to threaten the unreasonable till they're reasonable again.

[mystic1110]

How about something like this

Losing in RCR

If you and another player can't come to an agreement concerning the outcome of a conflict you may resolve to go into to RCR. Remember though RCR is a last resort: try to come up with a compromise OOC first. But if neither player wants to let their god Lose: roll the dice.

The Winning player may elect to do ONE of the following actions to the losing player


a) Destroy the Capital of Losing players society AND/OR b) force losing players mortal race into a diaspora OR enslave the losing god's society to the winning god's society. This is not a curse and can't be countered.

Destroy or steal all of the Relics that the losing god has on their person at the moment of the battle. This is not a curse and can't be countered.

Subordinate the losing god to the winning god. If the winning god is the head of a pantheon: The Losing god must quit his or her existing pantheon (including the AP loss) and join the pantheon of the winning god. If the winning god is not a head of a pantheon, the winning god may give one command to the losing god to follow - this command does not force the losing god to expend AP.

Mercy. The winning god can elect to do nothing.

[rweird]

Add something about being allowed to claim a monument, and anything else both can agree on if both truly agree on that, though not what happens.

Emperor: I see what you mean, so far, RCR happened once, it was unexpected, I'm not sure how big an issue this may be, others speak of "Rawr, I'mma breakin yo toys" war gods, though I haven't seen this actually happen. Still, it could.

[Preaplanes]

Add something about being allowed to claim a monument, and anything else both can agree on if both truly agree on that, though not what happens.

Emperor: I see what you mean, so far, RCR happened once, it was unexpected, I'm not sure how big an issue this may be, others speak of "Rawr, I'mma breakin yo toys" war gods, though I haven't seen this actually happen. Still, it could.

Give it a month. Trust me.

[rweird]

Give it a month. Trust me.

With you and Geth, maybe, don't really see it popping up anywhere else excepts with Shady's new god, depends on if the other gods join in the battle or try to stop it.

[Elricaltovilla]

A couple things on RCR:

It should be possible for a Fledgeling god to beat an Elder God in a battle. There are both IC and OOC reasons for this:

IC: Fledgeling gods may have domains or portfolios more tied to combat. A god of war should be able to outfight a god of plants regardless of age.

OOC: New gods are already weaker and have less stuff than old gods. They have less space to play in or create, so conflict becomes more likely for them. If older players just go around roflstomping new players, then why would anyone want to bother joining the game.

Personal Reasons: there's a list of god/character archetypes I've wanted to play in an LOC game but feel I can't due to the constraints of the system. One such idea was a god who deliberately foregoes ascending to a higher tier of divinity so that the deity can more closely watch/guide his people. But neutering myself like that is just too much of a risk if there are antagonistic players in the game. And yes, break the chains is a thing, but it doesn't fit with the goal I have for this god.

[Preaplanes]

A couple things on RCR:

It should be possible for a Fledgeling god to beat an Elder God in a battle. There are both IC and OOC reasons for this:

IC: Fledgeling gods may have domains or portfolios more tied to combat. A god of war should be able to outfight a god of plants regardless of age.

OOC: New gods are already weaker and have less stuff than old gods. They have less space to play in or create, so conflict becomes more likely for them. If older players just go around roflstomping new players, then why would anyone want to bother joining the game.

Personal Reasons: there's a list of god/character archetypes I've wanted to play in an LOC game but feel I can't due to the constraints of the system. One such idea was a god who deliberately foregoes ascending to a higher tier of divinity so that the deity can more closely watch/guide his people. But neutering myself like that is just too much of a risk if there are antagonistic players in the game. And yes, break the chains is a thing, but it doesn't fit with the goal I have for this god.

I again completely agree with this and tried to reflect it in my system. A newbie can't go about smacking elder gods with ANY regularity, but there's enough random chance that a month or two of seniority won't make someone untouchable.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm starting to see a sort of division between people here about the goal of LOC games (or maybe just why they play LOC):

1) LOC is played because you get to tell stories about being a god. And you get to be a god.

2) LOC is meant to create dynamic collaborative worlds that should be used later on in other game systems (specifically D&D?). Playing a god is secondary to this goal.

I don't think either of these is the wrong way to play, and I don't think that they're beyond reconciling, but there's definitely two minds about the system.

I personally think that the rules should be more detailed, because its the vagaries of the system that cause people to get into fights, not the stuff that's clear cut. To that end, does anyone object to me trying to clean up the Curse/Bless mechanic?

[mystic1110]

I'm starting to see a sort of division between people here about the goal of LOC games (or maybe just why they play LOC):

1) LOC is played because you get to tell stories about being a god. And you get to be a god.

2) LOC is meant to create dynamic collaborative worlds that should be used later on in other game systems (specifically D&D?). Playing a god is secondary to this goal.

I don't think either of these is the wrong way to play, and I don't think that they're beyond reconciling, but there's definitely two minds about the system.

I personally think that the rules should be more detailed, because its the vagaries of the system that cause people to get into fights, not the stuff that's clear cut. To that end, does anyone object to me trying to clean up the Curse/Bless mechanic?

No you may try to clean up any of the AP actions :smallsmile:. As for the ideological division - you hit the nail on the head.

[Preaplanes]

I'm starting to see a sort of division between people here about the goal of LOC games (or maybe just why they play LOC):

1) LOC is played because you get to tell stories about being a god. And you get to be a god.

2) LOC is meant to create dynamic collaborative worlds that should be used later on in other game systems (specifically D&D?). Playing a god is secondary to this goal.

I don't think either of these is the wrong way to play, and I don't think that they're beyond reconciling, but there's definitely two minds about the system.

I personally think that the rules should be more detailed, because its the vagaries of the system that cause people to get into fights, not the stuff that's clear cut. To that end, does anyone object to me trying to clean up the Curse/Bless mechanic?

Not at all, I'm just a player with a mind for statistics.

[Emperor Demonking]

I think there's a tradeoff between freedom to perform the actions you'd like and the definiteness of the rules. I'd be interested to see how Elricaltovilla cleans up the bless/curse.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think there's a tradeoff between freedom to perform the actions you'd like and the definiteness of the rules. I'd be interested to see how Elricaltovilla cleans up the bless/curse.

My plan involves a table, which is not my forte. So you may be disappointed lol.

[rweird]

My plan involves a table, which is not my forte. So you may be disappointed lol.

If you make the basic thing, someone else probably could arrange it neatly.

[Man on Fire]

No - go ahead :smallsmile:.

On another note I was thinking: Do people like the direction the LOC rules are heading in? I.E. More complex. OR do you want to move back towards the original rules and changes most of the other rules to examples of what could be done - and the limitations of the original rules?

Other than that hopefully tomorrow I'll post the second update of the AP actions. . . .

I would rather preffer we kep the rules simplistic, the simplest the better, I would preffer LoC to be more about collaborative worldbuilding and less about the rules.

[Rizban]

My plan involves a table, which is not my forte. So you may be disappointed lol.

Please don't do scaling bless/curse with variable AP costs based on the strength of the action. That was one of THE absolute worst rules changes ever made.

In all the games I've ever seen it used, it ALWAYS leads to one player storing AP to drop a max level curse on someone and scream that they can't undo it in any way due to lack of AP. Alternatively, someone dumps all AP into a bless so no one can touch their stuff and then tries to attack other creations while screaming that theirs is invincible. Variable bless/curse, while interesting in theory, quickly becomes nothing but a briefing tool.

Edit: I've seen variable AP bless/curse used in at least 5 games, all of which ended very, very quickly due to that exact rules abuse.

[Man on Fire]

I'm reading this and I can say thi: I strongly object to anything involving elements of the setting being destroyed because gods duked it out. Sorry, but no, that's horribly dumb idea that keeps setting from advancing at all. If RCR is abotu this, then I would suggest to remove it and replace with something where we cannot play "elder god undo other players hard work because he can". Any way of fighting between gods should be completely divorced from having any effect on the world.

[Elricaltovilla]

Curse Progression

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Debilitating Roleplaying Effect (endless thirst or drought, sudden storm or blizzard, etc)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Deadly Roleplaying Effect (virulent plague, angels descend to claim all firstborn sons, crops wither and die for a century, heroic characters are immune)
3 |1 nation or organization| Wrath of the Gods is clear (plagues spread until stopped, massive destruction of land and property, heroic mortals suffer Debilitating Roleplaying Effects
4 |All organizations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Utter Devastation (swathes of endless fire rage across the land, cities sink into the ocean, Heroic Mortals suffer mechanical and roleplaying drawbacks)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apocalypse (entire races are wiped from existence, Immortal souls are put in danger, Heroic Mortals may be killed outright)
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

Bless Progression

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Powerful Roleplaying Enhancement (agelessness, superhuman abilities, designates a single Mortal as protected by the god)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Grand Roleplaying Effect (Seasons of plentiful harvests, discoveries of new and advanced technologies, evolutionary enhancement, significant environmental change)
3 |1 Nation or Organization| Blessings of the Gods is Clear (Mass Environmental change, Heroic Mortals gain Significant Roleplaying Benefit, Powerful Magics at work)
4 |All Organizations or Nations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Deific Favoritism (Heroic Mortals gain Mechanical and Roleplaying Benefits, Nations and Organizations gain Mechanical benefits, Lands and People are suffused with divine essence for various Roleplaying Effects)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apotheosis (Heroic Mortals become favored champions of the gods, Nations and Organizations gain significant divine influence, Lands become planar in nature
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

When using these charts, the maximum number of targets or maximum effect determines the AP cost, you add the AP cost for the number of targets with the AP cost for the effect to determine the total cost of the blessing/curse. For example: A blessing that Affects an Entire Nation (3 AP) with Agelessness (1 AP) is a 4 AP blessing, while a curse that affects one person with the loss of their Immortal Soul is a 6 AP curse, this means that the minimum cost for a curse or blessing is 2 AP, and the "maximum" is 12 AP. However the maximum can be higher if you are attempting to counter a specific curse or blessing.

EDIT: There is one notable exception, you can spend 1 AP on a Bless action to make a single character protected by the gods. This protection saves them from non-targeted curse effects (plagues and such). It is intended to be used to designate significant characters that may become leaders, heroes, legends or seekers later in life. As such, this particular blessing cannot be countered.

Curse Wars

Curse Wars are when two players engage in an extended bout of cursing/blessing each others creations to counter a specific curse or bless action. Countering a Curse/Bless costs a number of AP equal to the original Curse/Bless +2, this additional AP cost is doubled for each subsequent counter-curse, so it becomes +2, then +4, then +8 etc.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'm reading this and I can say thi: I strongly object to anything involving elements of the setting being destroyed because gods duked it out. Sorry, but no, that's horribly dumb idea that keeps setting from advancing at all. If RCR is abotu this, then I would suggest to remove it and replace with something where we cannot play "elder god undo other players hard work because he can". Any way of fighting between gods should be completely divorced from having any effect on the world.

And then you end up with a world with 500,000,000 different little races, a billion countries and organizations and another staggeringly huge amount of named characters that are all untouchable, making gods of War, Death, Murder, Conquest, Survival, Reincarnation and Destruction completely pointless because they can't do anything tied to their domains, and nobody can keep track of what's going on so everyone just plays in their own little sandbox until the game dies because nobody can interact.

EDIT:


Please don't do scaling bless/curse with variable AP costs based on the strength of the action. That was one of THE absolute worst rules changes ever made.

In all the games I've ever seen it used, it ALWAYS leads to one player storing AP to drop a max level curse on someone and scream that they can't undo it in any way due to lack of AP. Alternatively, someone dumps all AP into a bless so no one can touch their stuff and then tries to attack other creations while screaming that theirs is invincible. Variable bless/curse, while interesting in theory, quickly becomes nothing but a briefing tool.

Edit: I've seen variable AP bless/curse used in at least 5 games, all of which ended very, very quickly due to that exact rules abuse.

Well, I went ahead and did it anyway, partly because I was working on my post while you wrote yours, but scaling AP curses have been a thing for as long as I've been playing. It started with the "countering a curse/bless costs 1 more AP than the curse/bless" and results in people just going back and forth until they run out of AP, then starting it all over again once Rollover happens. At least with my system I can hopefully make it so that it's too expensive for people to abuse the system like that.

[Rizban]

I gotta disagtree. Conflict is what drives stories, and let's face it, the shattered ruins od ancient collasped civilizations are cool plot hools. If nothing is ever destroyed, there's no cool ruins to explore!

[ShadowFireLance]

I gotta disagtree. Conflict is what drives stories, and let's face it, the shattered ruins od ancient collasped civilizations are cool plot hools. If nothing is ever destroyed, there's no cool ruins to explore!

And here, people are going to disagree. :smallsigh:
I'm about to leave, both this and the BTB, Mearly because I've had it up to here with pointless arugements about stuff.
My RcR is as follows, But anyways, I don't think it matters anymore:


Each god has 1d10 Based on rank.
Each Mortal Order under him adds +1 To his roll, if he so chooses to fight with them, be warned, if he looses by 4 or more, the Order is reduced to a society, if he looses by 6 or more, It's destroyed.
Each Artifacit the Mortals have adds +1 to his roll.
Each Relic adds +2
Each Demigod adds his own 1d10 Roll to add.
Monuments are non-exsistant.

[rweird]

I don't see how orders being reduced to societies work. As is they are weaker, and part of a society, a order taking damage and splitting off to become a society doesn't make sense.

In fact, the whole Form Order costing 2 AP, while Create Society costs 1 AP doesn't really make sense to me. Any reason why it currently is that way?

[mystic1110]

And here, people are going to disagree. :smallsigh:
I'm about to leave, both this and the BTB, Mearly because I've had it up to here with pointless arugements about stuff.
My RcR is as follows, But anyways, I don't think it matters anymore:


Each god has 1d10 Based on rank.
Each Mortal Order under him adds +1 To his roll, if he so chooses to fight with them, be warned, if he looses by 4 or more, the Order is reduced to a society, if he looses by 6 or more, It's destroyed.
Each Artifacit the Mortals have adds +1 to his roll.
Each Relic adds +2
Each Demigod adds his own 1d10 Roll to add.
Monuments are non-exsistant.



Please don't be discouraged. I for one think everyone has been very civil about this process and that we are making some progress.

[Rizban]

Curse Progression

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Debilitating Roleplaying Effect (endless thirst or drought, sudden storm or blizzard, etc)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Deadly Roleplaying Effect (virulent plague, angels descend to claim all firstborn sons, crops wither and die for a century, heroic characters are immune)
3 |1 nation or organization| Wrath of the Gods is clear (plagues spread until stopped, massive destruction of land and property, heroic mortals suffer Debilitating Roleplaying Effects
4 |All organizations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Utter Devastation (swathes of endless fire rage across the land, cities sink into the ocean, Heroic Mortals suffer mechanical and roleplaying drawbacks)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apocalypse (entire races are wiped from existence, Immortal souls are put in danger, Heroic Mortals may be killed outright)
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

Bless Progression

{table]AP Cost|Maximum Targets|Maximum Effect
1 |100 people or 100 square miles of land| Powerful Roleplaying Enhancement (agelessness, superhuman abilities, designates a single Mortal as protected by the god)
2 |1000 people or 500 square miles of land| Grand Roleplaying Effect (Seasons of plentiful harvests, discoveries of new and advanced technologies, evolutionary enhancement, significant environmental change)
3 |1 Nation or Organization| Blessings of the Gods is Clear (Mass Environmental change, Heroic Mortals gain Significant Roleplaying Benefit, Powerful Magics at work)
4 |All Organizations or Nations belonging to a specific god, Entire Continents| Deific Favoritism (Heroic Mortals gain Mechanical and Roleplaying Benefits, Nations and Organizations gain Mechanical benefits, Lands and People are suffused with divine essence for various Roleplaying Effects)
5 |An Entire Plane of Existence, All nonheroic mortals tied to a specific god or pantheon| Apotheosis (Heroic Mortals become favored champions of the gods, Nations and Organizations gain significant divine influence, Lands become planar in nature
6+ |No additional targets or range beyond 5 AP| No additional effects save the increased cost to dispel or counter[/table]

When using these charts, the maximum number of targets or maximum effect determines the AP cost, you add the AP cost for the number of targets with the AP cost for the effect to determine the total cost of the blessing/curse. For example: A blessing that Affects an Entire Nation (3 AP) with Agelessness (1 AP) is a 4 AP blessing, while a curse that affects one person with the loss of their Immortal Soul is a 6 AP curse, this means that the minimum cost for a curse or blessing is 2 AP, and the "maximum" is 12 AP. However the maximum can be higher if you are attempting to counter a specific curse or blessing.

EDIT: There is one notable exception, you can spend 1 AP on a Bless action to make a single character protected by the gods. This protection saves them from non-targeted curse effects (plagues and such). It is intended to be used to designate significant characters that may become leaders, heroes, legends or seekers later in life. As such, this particular blessing cannot be countered.

Curse Wars

Curse Wars are when two players engage in an extended bout of cursing/blessing each others creations to counter a specific curse or bless action. Countering a Curse/Bless costs a number of AP equal to the original Curse/Bless +2, this additional AP cost is doubled for each subsequent counter-curse, so it becomes +2, then +4, then +8 etc.

In response to your chart, here is the original sizing chart that failed with really bad issues every time I saw it implemented. I'm actually very familiar with these rules, as I helped to write this system the first time it was used. I hate to admit it, but it really was an abysmal failure. I'd prefer to not take part in any game with this system in place, because of the ways I've seen it horribly abused in the past. This list is not the original but rather the "revised" version that was supposed to make it work better with less abuse. The revision did not work.


Alter/Create Terrain: Create a Size Rank 1 region of terrain, or change existing terrain to a different type of terrain. Each 2 additional AP increases the radius by one Size Rank. Note that this does not cover "Attacks" - while you could in theory "Sink Atlantis" with this action, that falls under the category of Curse, below.

Size Ranks (For the Create Land action)

1AP - A small country, like Belgium. (~10,000 sq mi.)
3AP - A medium country, like France. (~250,000 sq mi.)
5AP - A large country, like India. (~1,000,000 sq mi.)
7AP - A small continent, like Australia. (~3,000,000 sq mi)
9AP - A medium continent, like North America. (~10,000,000 sq mi.)
11AP - A supercontinent, like Pangea. (~50,000,000 sq mi.)
13AP - A planet, like (World encompasing.)



Bless: Buffers against and counters Curse. Each additional 2 AP increases the Magnitude Rank of the area. Additional AP spent do not increase the potency of the effect - it is assumed to be at full power at 1AP, so long as it is not countered. Only the scope of the effect is increased. A Bless may be fully countered by a Curse of equal Magnitude, or weakened by one of a lesser Magnitude. Note that the area affected does not decrease – only the potency of the effect.
Curse: Buffers against and counters Bless. Spend 1 AP to increase buffer. Each additional 2 AP increases the Magnitude Rank of the area. Additional AP spent do not increase the potency of the effect - it is assumed to be at full power at 1AP, so long as it is not countered. Only the scope of the effect is increased. A Curse may be fully countered by a Blessing of equal Magnitude, or weakened by one of a lesser Magnitude. Note that the area affected does not decrease – only the potency of the effect.

Magnitude Ranks (For the Bless and Curse actions)

MR 1- From a single person to an average-sized town's worth of people. A section of an army. An exceedingly sparsely populated area (i.e., a non-magical forest)
MR 2- A large city's worth of people. A small army in its entirety. A rural, but settled area.
MR 3- A massive metropolis' worth of people (i.e., Waterdeep, New York City). The army of a large kingdom. A swath of land, including hamlets and small villages. An extremely narrow group of people. (i.e.,Those with the blood of Gustav Augustus in their veins, NNHIS Employees)
MR 4- The vast army of a legendary empire. A small nation, and all within it, including settlements of any size. A very specific group of people (i.e., Wizards, Blacksmiths)
MR 5- A large nation or kingdom, and all within it, including settlements of any size. Anyone matching a broad descriptor (I.e., Arcane Spellcasters, Commoners, those who worship a certain god)
MR 6- A super-massive continent (such as Pangaea), or several smaller ones (such as Europe and Asia). A world-spanning empire. The population of the western hemisphere. A massively generalized group of people (i.e., Casters, Militaries, those who worship any god on a certain pantheon)
MR 7- Everyone. Everywhere. A truly global effect, usually reserved for cataclysms or other history-shaping events, as there is literally no-one who is entirely untouched by an act of this magnitude. (Second Impact, Ragnarok)

[NichG]

Here's a thought: give gods a reason to allow their creations to be destroyed, or even to sacrifice their creations directly.

Right now if I understand correctly, you can continually spend AP to create new things, so the game gets cluttered. What if there's a maximum number of things you can have at a given time - basically, you have slots that you can fill with a certain number of creations. These things cannot be directly attacked (as in, no declaring 'I unmake your thing'). They can be threatened in the mortal realm, but only by other creations, and they can be reduced, but not simply removed from play outright.

If you create anything beyond these slots, it has a fixed duration of existence unless you or another deity sacrifice something in one of your slots to 'adopt' it, in which case it becomes permanent.

So for example, God A says 'I really want lizardmen to exist, so I'm going to spend one of my three slots on lizardmen; my second slot will be spent on a plane of existence that acts as a heaven/hell for their souls; my third slot will be spent on a heroic lizardman mortal, who will lead them'.

No curse can then directly just kill the mortal, destroy the plane, or end the lizardman civilization. But a curse could make it so they could not advance through an area of the world; another creation could make it so there is some adjacent civilization that attacks them or blocks their progress; etc. As long as the slots are spent, those things will exist in the world in some form, but possibly a weak or useless one.

So eventually when something has been degraded sufficiently, it becomes worthwhile to allow it to slide into oblivion, freeing up the slot for a new creation.

This helps prevent the cowboys and indians back and forth of 'you shot me!' 'no you didn't!' while also meaning that everything doesn't just become a bidding war or griefing.

[Draken]

In response to your chart, here is the original sizing chart that failed with really bad issues every time I saw it implemented. I'm actually very familiar with these rules, as I helped to write this system the first time it was used. I hate to admit it, but it really was an abysmal failure. I'd prefer to not take part in any game with this system in place, because of the ways I've seen it horribly abused in the past. This list is not the original but rather the "revised" version that was supposed to make it work better with less abuse. The revision did not work.

Ah, I remember those rules! They changed the problem from "charging my invincible-ultra-curse-lazer" to "nobody knows what size to use (other than Everyone, Everywhere)".

[Elricaltovilla]

Can you explain to me or provide examples as to how the progression chart was abused?

I get that people just wait until they have a nuke on hand to launch at whoever or whatever, but if we're trying to cut back on AP generation/reduction boosts, then that at least makes it more difficult to generate enough AP to keep things going.

A slot system like NichG's idea might work for curses/blessings. That way you can limit how much devastation each god can wrought.

EDIT: @NichG- I'm going to keep saying it every time somebody suggests that maybe people shouldn't be allowed to destroy other peoples creations: tough cookies.

Things break, things die, they weather and erode and fall apart. There are gods that embody those very real physical laws, and saying "no, you can't do that to my stuff" doesn't mean you're protecting your ideas, it means you're stomping all over someone else's entire character concept. And you're not even spending AP to do it.

If people really don't want to risk their stuff being destroyed or taken away from them, then take that possibility out of the rules entirely and outright ban evil gods or gods of death, decay, entropy, tyranny, thievery, war etc.

It might still make for a fun game, but not one I would have any interest in playing. I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you, I just feel very strongly that it's a bad idea to afford such protection to player's creations.

For constructiveness though, I'd like to suggest that maybe if we allow players to recoup some of the losses that comes with having your race/nation/order/hero/relic destroyed or stolen they might be less upset when it happens.

Say: If its destroyed they gain 1/2 (rounded up) the AP spent on the creation back, but they can't use that AP to gain new domains and if its stolen they gain 1/4 (rounded up) the AP but gain a circumstantial bonus if they try and reclaim the item in question?

[Rizban]

I just had a bizarre random idea that completely departs from tradition but could make a very neat game, if totally different in style of how it runs.

In short, everyone gets a little more AP than "usual", and creation costs don't change. The change is, everything you make has to be paid for every single week to keep it alive. Create a civilization for 2AP, must spend 2AP every week to keep it active. Or something like that.

[Grinner]

I just had a bizarre random idea that completely departs from tradition but could make a very neat game, if totally different in style of how it runs.

In short, everyone gets a little more AP than "usual", and creation costs don't change. The change is, everything you make has to be paid for every single week to keep it alive. Create a civilization for 2AP, must spend 2AP every week to keep it active. Or something like that.

So...make the players pay rent on their creations? I like that. It elegantly solves a lot of the problems with AP expenditure.

[Elricaltovilla]

So...make the players pay rent on their creations? I like that. It elegantly solves a lot of the problems with AP expenditure.

But then the question becomes, how much AP generation shoot up?

What about instantaneous actions, do they just happen or do they retcon themselves out of existence unless you pay for them every week?

What happens to something once you stop paying AP on it? Do cities just disappear? Do relics unmake themselves? Do they go rogue?

It's not a bad idea, but I think it introduces at least as many problems as it solves. Which is true about everything we've been discussing really... :smallsigh:

[Rizban]

I'll work that angle a bit later and post something up.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'll work that angle a bit later and post something up.

I am excited to see what you come up with :smallsmile:

[Preaplanes]

Can you explain to me or provide examples as to how the progression chart was abused?

I get that people just wait until they have a nuke on hand to launch at whoever or whatever, but if we're trying to cut back on AP generation/reduction boosts, then that at least makes it more difficult to generate enough AP to keep things going.

A slot system like NichG's idea might work for curses/blessings. That way you can limit how much devastation each god can wrought.

EDIT: @NichG- I'm going to keep saying it every time somebody suggests that maybe people shouldn't be allowed to destroy other peoples creations: tough cookies.

Things break, things die, they weather and erode and fall apart. There are gods that embody those very real physical laws, and saying "no, you can't do that to my stuff" doesn't mean you're protecting your ideas, it means you're stomping all over someone else's entire character concept. And you're not even spending AP to do it.

If people really don't want to risk their stuff being destroyed or taken away from them, then take that possibility out of the rules entirely and outright ban evil gods or gods of death, decay, entropy, tyranny, thievery, war etc.

It might still make for a fun game, but not one I would have any interest in playing. I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking you, I just feel very strongly that it's a bad idea to afford such protection to player's creations.

For constructiveness though, I'd like to suggest that maybe if we allow players to recoup some of the losses that comes with having your race/nation/order/hero/relic destroyed or stolen they might be less upset when it happens.

Say: If its destroyed they gain 1/2 (rounded up) the AP spent on the creation back, but they can't use that AP to gain new domains and if its stolen they gain 1/4 (rounded up) the AP but gain a circumstantial bonus if they try and reclaim the item in question?

Yes, but there should also be something at stake for the aggressors, and typically there isn't, or the odds are insignificant enough for the aggressors not to care.

It's no fun fighting over a bunch of ruins, even less than not fighting at all. I agree, there should be a possibility of loss, but losing everything you've spent weeks or more likely months working on in one fell swoop, with nothing but an aggressive post from another god, is over the top.

You may be able to refund the AP, but damned if you can refund the time you just made me waste.

[Grinner]

But then the question becomes, how much AP generation shoot up?

That's a very hard question. Too much, and players who choose not to make anything can push the others around. Too little, and no one can do anything.


What about instantaneous actions, do they just happen or do they retcon themselves out of existence unless you pay for them every week?

Good point. Maybe the core mechanic could be balanced between the ability to maintain creations/sustained effects and the ability to act, with some actions being free.

OR

When the player stops making payments on the instantaneous action, the affected creation spontaneously recovers (as long as payments are made on it).


What happens to something once you stop paying AP on it? Do cities just disappear? Do relics unmake themselves? Do they go rogue?

I'd say they decay and dissolve. Relics are lost and/or destroyed; civilizations implode; cities die; etc.

That's not to say some industrious souls and good helping of AP couldn't fix that later.


It's not a bad idea, but I think it introduces at least as many problems as it solves. Which is true about everything we've been discussing really... :smallsigh:

The main concern for me is that it would require a lot of rebalancing of the system's core mechanic (AP accrual and AP costs).

Also, the players would eventually reach an "AP ceiling" of sorts. They can't afford to act anymore, since they're spending all of their AP on their creations. Then, since no one wants to discard their creations, the game just withers. For some, this isn't a bad thing, but others might want to keep the game going.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yes, but there should also be something at stake for the aggressors, and typically there isn't, or the odds are insignificant enough for the aggressors not to care.

It's no fun fighting over a bunch of ruins, even less than not fighting at all. I agree, there should be a possibility of loss, but losing everything you've spent weeks working on in one fell swoop, with nothing but an aggressive post from another god, is over the top.

You may be able to refund the AP, but damned if you can refund the time you just made me waste.

Isn't that why we're trying to fix the RCR?

In my experience with LOC games, if I want to break something, I either have to break something that belongs to me, or roll for it. I cannot think of a single time when someone has willingly said "ok, I'll give up <insert noun here> because it makes for a good <insert other noun here>" I've done that myself, but I haven't recieved much reciprocation even when I explicitly offered an OOC tit-for-tat sort of deal. So anymore I just default to the RCR.

I get that people don't want to lose the things they spent time and effort creating. I get that they care about the characters and races and organizations that they write about. I'm not immune to that effect, but at the end of the day it's kind of silly to care more about your imaginary friends than the ones you're playing the game with.

[Preaplanes]

Isn't that why we're trying to fix the RCR?

In my experience with LOC games, if I want to break something, I either have to break something that belongs to me, or roll for it. I cannot think of a single time when someone has willingly said "ok, I'll give up <insert noun here> because it makes for a good <insert other noun here>" I've done that myself, but I haven't recieved much reciprocation even when I explicitly offered an OOC tit-for-tat sort of deal. So anymore I just default to the RCR.

I get that people don't want to lose the things they spent time and effort creating. I get that they care about the characters and races and organizations that they write about. I'm not immune to that effect, but at the end of the day it's kind of silly to care more about your imaginary friends than the ones you're playing the game with.

Yes, which is why we need more determinable effects for what happens when you do lose. I enjoyed Myst's suggestions. The subordination in particular is a consequence that can ALWAYS be applied, unlike thinks like taking a monument or relic away: if he isn't fighting with one, what're you gonna do about it? What's to stop a fledgling from trying again and again, using the law of large numbers to force a victory against a more veteran, better-equipped god? That Subordination option gives a tangible, but not too broken consequence for losing a duel.

Essentially: you lose, I "Planar Binding" you.

[Elricaltovilla]

Yes, which is why we need more determinable effects for what happens when you do lose. I enjoyed Myst's suggestions. The subordination in particular is a consequence that can ALWAYS be applied, unlike thinks like taking a monument or relic away: if he isn't fighting with one, what're you gonna do about it? What's to stop a fledgling from trying again and again, using the law of large numbers to force a victory against a more veteran, better-equipped god? That gives a tangible, but not too broken consequence for losing a duel.

I like mystic's suggestions too. Although, I think that there should be a minimum and maximum time for subordinating someone. That way losers don't just take the 2 AP hit to immediately end their subordination, and winners don't auto-dominate by curbstomping every god the instant they're born.

[NichG]

I think the question has to be asked: do you want to make a game that is OOC competitive or not?

E.g. if its OOC competitive then having things that can be done 'by force' against another deity make sense. It makes sense that some tactics are successful and cause outcomes that make a player (at least temporarily) unhappy when those tactics are used against them, and make them seek reciprocation.

You can have an OOC collaborative game that is IC competitive though, and the method is by having there be meta-game benefits to accepting something that is damaging in character. E.g. when something is destroyed, co-opted, etc, there's reciprocation.

For example, if you waive the RCR you receive AP equal to the amount spent on the attack -1. Or perhaps there's a set of 'initiator' points that are passed around; you need to have one to take an aggressive action against another deity or creation, and the deity who was attacked gets the point. That prevents a few people from playing griefers while others are just trying to make stuff. In stories, there are always quests to destroy the plots and plans of gods of death an entropy and the like - OOC, its because those gods need lots of initiator points for future attacks, so they let themselves get beaten up.

Also, on the other topic, I think requiring an upkeep on effects is an elegant way of implementing the slots without having explicit slots.

[Preaplanes]

Also, on the other topic, I think requiring an upkeep on effects is an elegant way of implementing the slots without having explicit slots.

Also kinda limiting on just what the world can be. I dislike the idea. "There can only be so much stuff, depending entirely on the number of deities and nothing else." Yeah, THAT'LL work out well as time goes on.

It's a choice between "Stagnant" and "Empty" with that system.

One workaround might be giving Nations different types, and awarding AP to spend on things only in that nation, with bonuses to be spent only on things associated with that nation's type. (A Maritime nation might spend it on a Navy, a Mercantile nation might spend it on squiring goods and old concepts from other nations/societies, an Industrial society might spend it on automation or metalwork)

[Grinner]

Also kinda limiting on just what the world can be. I dislike the idea. "There can only be so much stuff, depending entirely on the number of deities and nothing else." Yeah, THAT'LL work out well as time goes on.

It's a choice between "Stagnant" and "Empty" with that system.

True, but without the constant influx of new "creative potential", you'd have to flesh out what you do create more (or quit, unfortunately). Plus, I'm thinking that allowing some free actions might grease the wheels a bit.

Also, requiring that every creation and effect be sustained by payments of AP, including curses and blessings, means that your months of work on one creation can't just be destroyed.

[Preaplanes]

True, but without the constant influx of new "creative potential", you'd have to flesh out what you do create more (or quit, unfortunately). Plus, I'm thinking that allowing some free actions might grease the wheels a bit.

Also, requiring that every creation and effect be sustained by payments of AP, including curses and blessings, means that your months of work on one creation can't just be destroyed.

How about, instead of that, there's a minimum AP spent per fortnight (that's 2 weeks) on things to advance things you own. That way things advance, but you're still limited in the things you own.


Yes, I'm aware that interferes with gods of limits, but hell, EVERYTHING interferes with one type or another. At a certain point we have to say " this works for the considerable majority of archetypes".

[Rizban]

One workaround might be giving Nations different types, and awarding AP to spend on things only in that nation, with bonuses to be spent only on things associated with that nation's type. (A Maritime nation might spend it on a Navy, a Mercantile nation might spend it on squiring goods and old concepts from other nations/societies, an Industrial society might spend it on automation or metalwork)

Single WORST era of LoC ever was the era of civilization rules. When it comes to having intricate civ rules, Just Say No!

[ShadowFireLance]

Single WORST era of LoC ever was the era of civilization rules. When it comes to having intricate civ rules, Just Say No!

...If you actually had links to all the old games, we might read those to never repeat them? :smallbiggrin:

[Rizban]

Unfortunately, most of those old games only ever posted the rules in their recruitment threads, which were purged from the forums years ago. I still have local copies of many of the major rules revisions, but they're no longer on the site anywhere that I can find.

I was reading through the list of AP actions just now though, and I was surprised at just how many of the ideas I initially suggested as rules for future games still survive in them. Specific examples being having differing strengths of Create Life and separating Create Civilization into its own action instead of being inherent to Create Life.

I was also always a fan of the Domain AP bonuses I added to the LoC I started way back when, though others really didn't seem to like them much. Basically, the main way to gain AP was by gaining domains. Each domain either gave you 1AP or a 1AP discount per week, but it could ONLY be spent on something directly related to that domain. the big problem with that was that people would do stupid crap like spend Dragon domain AP to create a super weapon and justify it by saying it had a picture of a dragon on it. Then it was limited to assigning one specific 1AP action it could do per week and do only that action every week, but that ran into similar silliness.

[ArcturusV]

Thoughts on RCR resolution:

I think a simple system, and one less likely to face a lot of abuse, or attempts by players to be "Bullies" with it, would be the following:

Step One: Players cannot just talk and agree on something, or want to use RCR for some reason.

Step Two: Both players propose their stakes for winning. e.g.: Re declares if he wins that his Cult can run in the open. If Geth wins the Re cult is forced out of the society.

Step Three: RCR is done to determine the victor. e.g.: they roll off after accounting for modifiers and groups involved.

Step Four: The Loser of the RCR determines how the stakes the winner proposed is carried out. e.g.: Re smashes Geth's followers, and Geth determines just what his Cult running in the open might mean. Tolerance, or perhaps getting rolled into the official state religion, or just a counterculture that is openly known about and grumbled about, etc. Whatever they do, it must follow at least one interpretation of the spirit of the stakes proposed. It might not be everything the winner might have wanted in their wildest dreams, but it is a measurable achievement of their stakes.

Thus, since it's always the Loser who determines just what exactly happens ICily, it's less "Bullying". So you got the big **** on campus and are going to swing an unbeatable RCR? Well, you might build character. You might really mess with people's days and their plans. But unless they really want to you're not going to wasteland everything that stands before you.

Step Five: Conflict Review.

If the winner feels that the Loser was not upholding to the spirit of their stakes, they may ask a mod to review the fall out from the RCR and for an impartial view over if the terms of the stakes were respected in the IC aftermath.

[Rizban]

Well, I came up with a rules idea for upkeep, but it probably would only work well in a face to face game. Running it pbp might be more work than it's worth.

My basic idea is as follows.

First of all, the whole rules system will need to be stripped down and overhauled to accommodate this idea. Keep that in mind.
Secondly, this system takes away, in large part, the concept of "ownership" of mortal groups, allowing for other players to take ownership of portions of any existing group by investing a little AP. This represents some members of the group turning to worship a new god, regardless of what the rest of the group does. This may, and usually should, lead to conflict within the mortal group, though the gods and their followers may indeed be allies as well.


Rules ideas for upkeep/decay:

Each civilization has a certain lifespan before it collapses. Collapse, ruin, and death are part of life, and they can, at best, only be postponed.

When a deity creates a civilization, that civilization will exist for only one week before it goes into decline for one week and collapses entirely the third. For the first week, the creating player is the only one with control over the mortals.

Each week after the first, any and all deities can invest AP into the civilization to prolong its life. This costs 1 additional AP per week past the first. I.e., 1 AP in week 2, 2 AP in week 3, 3 AP in week 4, etc. More than one deity may invest AP to prolong the civilization's life, and more than the minimum AP can be paid ech week if the players choose. Any and all deities who so invest becomes one of the patron deities of the civilization and control a small part of it for as long as he continues to invest AP. Patron deities can control only their own followers in the civilization.

Eventually, a civilization will become so muddled and so overly large that it collapses under its own weight, represented by costing too much AP to maintain. When deities no longer choose to pay its upkeep or become unable to do so, the civilization enters Decline. For the next week, it can still be controlled by any of it's patron deities from the previous week, but the civilization is consumed by civil wars, rebellions, and general social decay that leaves little in its wake. A civilization in Decline costs no AP to control. Once in decline, a civilization can not return to normal and must fall at the next rollover.

At such time, anyone is capable of claiming some of the survivors to make a new civilization, though they can also be left as relics of the past, wanderers and vagabonds, or simply ignored and assumed to have died off. However, no new civilization may be started in the exact same location for at least two weeks. New civilizations can not simply be the same civilization remade and must be a new concept, though it can be a progression of the old. For example, the Cordran Empire falls, and, a few generations later, the Cordran Coalition rises from the ashes as an attempt to regain the glory of the past; however, they have a more democratic form of government and different values and goals. They may even worship totally different gods.

[Betrayer]

When you say AP must be invested, do you mean specifically spent on upkeep, or spent on something relating to the civilization, such as concepts or orders for them?

[Rizban]

Spent specifically on upkeep as an explicit AP action with no effect other than prolonging a civilization's lifespan.

[Preaplanes]

Spent specifically on upkeep as an explicit AP action with no effect other than prolonging a civilization's lifespan.

I'd want no part of this at all. That isn't world building whatsoever. Nothing would last for any appreciable time, leaving nothing but ruins in the game.

At least RCR wouldn't be a problem: you want these ruins? Freakin' take them.

It's a giant Yurtle the Turtle simulator with this idea. Gods of the Ruins for those who play to play Mythology Makers, and Ruin Builder 2.0 for those who want to play to build a unique, collaborative world.

There is nothing redeeming about what you're proposing.

[Man on Fire]

And then you end up with a world with 500,000,000 different little races, a billion countries and organizations and another staggeringly huge amount of named characters that are all untouchable, making gods of War, Death, Murder, Conquest, Survival, Reincarnation and Destruction completely pointless because they can't do anything tied to their domains, and nobody can keep track of what's going on so everyone just plays in their own little sandbox until the game dies because nobody can interact.

1) How is it worse from setting with five races, one continent one organisation and five named characters that are untouchble, making gods of War, Death, Murder, Conquest, Survival, Reincarnation and Destruction completely pointless because they can't do anything tied to their domains, and neither can everybody else, because elder gods made the original things and will strike down anybody who tries to meddle with status quo, sink down every new continent, destroy every new race, and retcon every attempt to destroy anything. Maybe just settle to players recruited in last draft and don't recruit any new ones?
2) This is silly false dichotomy which assumes we either have to make this unfair, favorising elder gods rules or things will run out of control. I played game of original rules and we didn't had this problem, we were smashing and destroying things all the time.
3) This is collaborative game. Destroying stuff is part of that collaboration. If player cannot understand that, he is a problem.
4) Simply ban retcons. If god of death sends plague on humans, it happens and god of elves cannot retcon that or make it look like it didn't happen. He can make a cure and distribute it, but there still have to be conseqences of that action. If god goes and destroy civilisation, their god cannot just recreate it like if destruction didn't happen. It's that simple.
5) Where did you ever saw battle between gods turning into game of battleship with them blowing each other's creations? It's horribly anticlimatic.
6) Again, this is collaborative game, destruction should be part of collaborative effort. You want destroy civilisation? You go to OOC and ask the player if you can. If players are so damn selfish they cannot get god of War needs to cause war to have fun, don't play with them.
7) There is also matter of players who left. Whoce creations could easily be fair game for anybody to do whatever they want with it.

[Rizban]

I'd want no part of this at all. That isn't world building whatsoever. Nothing would last for any appreciable time, leaving nothing but ruins in the game.

At least RCR wouldn't be a problem: you want these ruins? Freakin' take them.

It's a giant Yurtle the Turtle simulator with this idea. Gods of the Ruins for those who play to play Mythology Makers, and Ruin Builder 2.0 for those who want to play to build a unique, collaborative world.How is that not world building? You're perpetually creating new content and telling the story of the world as it ages and changes throughout the eons. That's exactly world building.

Unless you you are taking "world building" to mean you make things that are perpetual and inviolate and have no history outside of themselves. If there is no growth and change, then what came before? What comes after? Anything?

That's the mindset of a god game, and the reason i and most of the "elder" players quit playing. It's something I'm actively trying to avoid. In a god game, you make something, and, unless you deem otherwise, it's imperishable, because, well, "gods." my concept is meant to create a world with a rich history of change and, yes, destruction. All stories must have a beginning, middle, and end to be stories.

Yes, AP costs to maintain a civilization are high if you're working alone, but if you're collaborating with 4 other players, it's still just 1 AP each six weeks into the civilization. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.


There is nothing redeeming about what you're proposing. :smallconfused: I disagree with that statement wholeheartedly. There are several redeeming points to it, all of which I was careful to point out. Just because it differs from your point of view doesn't mean it's completely worthless.

[Betrayer]

It's a giant Yurtle the Turtle simulator with this idea. Gods of the Ruins for those who play to play Mythology Makers, and Ruin Builder 2.0 for those who want to play to build a unique, collaborative world.

There is nothing redeeming about what you're proposing.

Calm down! There's no need to be so damn aggressive just because you don't like a system. The whole point of this thread is that we can make suggestions, which then we will all discuss, take the good stuff and make new, better suggestions, or worse suggestions, and we'll talk about it. Saying stuff like that isn't helpful at all, it's just confrontational.

I for one think it could be quite an interesting game, but obviously very different to the current one. I think that the value of AP would have to be reduced quite a bit, and the cost of all the main actions increased accordingly, so that sinking 10 AP for a month is, sure, a big outlay, but not completely prohibitive.

I've got an idea about upkeep, whereby we keep the current system, maybe half the value of AP, and then some actions have associated upkeep. While you're paying upkeep, the original thing is "your baby" and other people can't mess with it without your permission. If you let it go (like with humans is TBS) then you don't have to pay. It could even be tiered, such that there were different levels of protection.

EDIT: Seeing your ninja-post I know get why you wouldn't necessarily want to make AP less valuable in your upkeep system - it forces collaboration to get stuff done. The problem I imagine is that people will only want to play with their own creations.

[Man on Fire]

In short, everyone gets a little more AP than "usual", and creation costs don't change. The change is, everything you make has to be paid for every single week to keep it alive. Create a civilization for 2AP, must spend 2AP every week to keep it active. Or something like that.

Which will lead to every god making only very little few things and spending rest of the game keeping their little snowflakes as they are and not developing setting or changing thing at all. The game will turn into economics 101, where everybody have to keep account of their spend points and calculating how much they can sell.

I dunno how you guys play, but we were playign with set in stone time limit - 32 weeks, after that we end. In that time it was rather hard if somebody started as half-god to really do much and advance on higher level so you can actually have lasting impact on the setting. With these rules it owuld be downright imposible.

[Rizban]

What would Eberron be without the fall of Galifar and the Last War? Pretty boring, if you ask me. None of the rich history would exist, the warforged would not exist, none of the Five Nations would exist, the Mourlandwould be just another countryside, and things would still be... Galifar.

Heck, the ancient giant empire would still be ruling the world from Xen'drik, and none of the interesting history would have happened to provide a rich canvas for the Eberron campaign world.

[Rizban]

Which will lead to every god making only very little few things and spending rest of the game keeping their little snowflakes as they are and not developing setting or changing thing at all. The game will turn into economics 101, where everybody have to keep account of their spend points and calculating how much they can sell.

I dunno how you guys play, but we were playign with set in stone time limit - 32 weeks, after that we end. In that time it was rather hard if somebody started as half-god to really do much and advance on higher level so you can actually have lasting impact on the setting. With these rules it owuld be downright imposible.

I think you missed my follow up post that was actually rather different in costs and setup completely from the one you quoted. Please read that one.

Edit: link here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15258379&postcount=209)

[Man on Fire]

What would Eberron be without the fall of Galifar and the Last War? Pretty boring, if you ask me. None of the rich history would exist, the warforged would not exist, none of the Five Nations would exist, the Mourlandwould be just another countryside, and things would still be... Galifar.

Heck, the ancient giant empire would still be ruling the world from Xen'drik, and none of the interesting history would have happened to provide a rich canvas for the Eberron campaign world.

This is a fallancy, just because I don't want your stupid system don't mean I don't want anything to ever change in the game. I however want it to look like this:

God of Evil: I activate a volcano and destroy elven capital city.
And it happens.
And god of good doesn't go "I spend AP so it never happened", he goes "I lead the fleeing refugees from the city to my island and make one of them take sacred scrolls of magic". And if he feels like he might add "And I send Tom Bombadil to kick god of evil in the d."

You don't want your stuff being broken by other gods? Well I'm pretty sure Aslan didn't wanted his continent frozen for 100 years either.

[Grinner]

I'd want no part of this at all. That isn't world building whatsoever. Nothing would last for any appreciable time, leaving nothing but ruins in the game.

At least RCR wouldn't be a problem: you want these ruins? Freakin' take them.

It's a giant Yurtle the Turtle simulator with this idea. Gods of the Ruins for those who play to play Mythology Makers, and Ruin Builder 2.0 for those who want to play to build a unique, collaborative world.

There is nothing redeeming about what you're proposing.

This seems appropriate:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/premiere.png

Everything dies.

[Preaplanes]

Calm down! There's no need to be so damn aggressive just because you don't like a system. The whole point of this thread is that we can make suggestions, which then we will all discuss, take the good stuff and make new, better suggestions, or worse suggestions, and we'll talk about it. Saying stuff like that isn't helpful at all, it's just confrontational.

I for one think it could be quite an interesting game, but obviously very different to the current one. I think that the value of AP would have to be reduced quite a bit, and the cost of all the main actions increased accordingly, so that sinking 10 AP for a month is, sure, a big outlay, but not completely prohibitive.

I've got an idea about upkeep, whereby we keep the current system, maybe half the value of AP, and then some actions have associated upkeep. While you're paying upkeep, the original thing is "your baby" and other people can't mess with it without your permission. If you let it go (like with humans is TBS) then you don't have to pay. It could even be tiered, such that there were different levels of protection.

In MTG terms: You're not proposing upkeep, you're proposing cumulative upkeep. Upkeep I'll do, but the only reason I would ever touch those cumulative upkeep cards with a 40 foot pole is with an Eon Hub combo deck designed to get around that ridiculous cost; it just isn't worth the price. I repeat: I have no interest in playing that whatsoever.

And it isn't just the price of the civilization, it's the concepts, boons, artifacts, ascended mortals, leaders, and that are suddenly dust in the wind.

To make it remotely playable, you'd have to balance an INCREASING upkeep cost with the cost of actually doing something. Which, dare I say, can't be done, especially when you factor in other gods.

By TBS standards, the only two civilizations that would last as of now are Aurea Civitas and the Gnomes. And even they would soon collapse under their own weight with only 3 or 4 players working on them simultaneously.

It's just a system to punish smaller civilizations, and ensure that there is are only one or two larger ones on the board. That doesn't expand the world, it makes it smaller. I'd rather have the dozens of races (and nobody's killing/assimilating/enslaving/driving out these unoccupied races? What, is nobody Chaotic or Evil? Or hell, a moral Neutral with a pragmatic streak?) than something as limited as that.

It becomes harder to create, harder to develop. What is the payoff? A few ruined buildings? Fewer races and civilizations? Is this some inherit good thing? Are civilizations impossible if you don't have 12 or more active players? Speaking as a mortal, I don't think we're quite that incompetent as to simply wither and die like a plant somebody forgot to water (or couldn't because the price kept inexplicably multiplying every week).

I just finished a campaign that had the Gods change the world by using mortal heroes to overthrow a continent five nations... twice. First Asmodeus did so by using the PCs in the Evil half of the campaign to remove a My Little Pony level sugar bowl, then the Good half came along and the various Good aligned deities the PCs worshipped had them take it back (their previous characters? They were the BBEGs!), though a little more cynical when it was reborn. I didn't need to wait for the civilizations to decline, the PCs went and did it!

Look, you might not like a lot of little stuff, but this isn't going to work if you ask me.

[Betrayer]

You don't want your stuff being broken by other gods? Well I'm pretty sure Aslan didn't wanted his continent frozen for 100 years either.

Best argument ever.

Anyway, what about if you combine the two systems - failing to pay upkeep doesn't mean the civilization automatically goes into decline, it just means they are no longer protected by your god, and other gods can start messing with them (by, for example sending an eternal winter to their homeland) and the first go could take some of the survivors, and start a new civilization, with new low protection costs.

Or, if you don't feel the need to protect your fragile little creations, you can make them, never pay up keep and let what comes, come.



EDIT:

In MTG terms: You're not proposing upkeep, you're proposing cumulative upkeep. Upkeep I'll do, but the only reason I would ever touch those cards with an 40 foot pole is with an Eon Hub combo deck designed to get around that ridiculous cost; it just isn't worth the price. I repeat: I have no interest in playing that whatsoever.

And it isn't just the price of the civilization, it's the concepts, boons, artifacts, ascended mortals, leaders, and that are suddenly dust in the wind.

To make it remotely playable, you'd have to balance an INCREASING upkeep cost with the cost of actually doing something. Which, dare I say, can't be done, especially when you factor in other gods.

By TBS standards, the only two civilizations that would last as of now are Aurea Civitas and the Gnomes. And even they would soon collapse under their own weight with only 3 or 4 players working on them simultaneously.

It's just a system to punish smaller civilizations, and ensure that there is are only one or two larger ones on the board. That doesn't expand the world, it makes it smaller. I'd rather have the dozens of races (and nobody's killing/assimilating/enslaving/driving out these unoccupied races? What, is nobody Chaotic or Evil? Or hell, a moral Neutral with a pragmatic streak?) than something as limited as that.

It becomes harder to create, harder to develop. What is the payoff? A few ruined buildings? Fewer races and civilizations? Is this some inherit good thing? Are civilizations impossible if you don't have 12 or more active players? Speaking as a mortal, I don't think we're quite that incompetent as to simply wither and die like a plant somebody forgot to water (or couldn't because the price kept inexplicably multiplying every week).

I just finished a campaign that had the Gods change the world by using mortal heroes to overthrow a continent five nations... twice. First Asmodeus did so by using the PCs in the Evil half of the campaign to remove a My Little Pony level sugar bowl, then the Good half came along and the various Good aligned deities the PCs worshipped had them take it back (their previous characters? They were the BBEGs!), though a little more cynical when it was reborn. I didn't need to wait for the civilizations to decline, the PCs went and did it!

Look, you might not like a lot of little stuff, but this isn't going to work if you ask me.

You see, that would have been a good response. I wasn't saying: "you shouldn't disagree with Rizban". I was saying: "You shouldn't dismiss someone's idea without explaining you objections so we can all try and find a compromise".

[Grinner]

It's just a system to punish smaller civilizations, and ensure that there is are only one or two larger ones on the board. That doesn't expand the world, it makes it smaller. I'd rather have the dozens of races (and nobody's killing/assimilating/enslaving/driving out these unoccupied races? What, is nobody Chaotic or Evil? Or hell, a moral Neutral with a pragmatic streak?) than something as limited as that.

It becomes harder to create, harder to develop. What is the payoff? A few ruined buildings? Fewer races and civilizations? Is this some inherit good thing? Are civilizations impossible if you don't have 12 or more active players? Speaking as a mortal, I don't think we're quite that incompetent as to simply wither and die like a plant somebody forgot to water (or couldn't because the price kept inexplicably multiplying every week).

And eventually, those bloated empires collapse under their own weight and fracture. People squabble for power, build kingdoms, and the serpent eats its tail.

Unless you're thinking that each week represents a significantly briefer span of time than I am, I don't see the problem.

[Preaplanes]

And eventually, those bloated empires collapse under their own weight and fracture. People squabble for power, build kingdoms, and the serpent eats its tail.

Unless you're thinking that each week represents a significantly briefer span of time than I am, I don't see the problem.

It isn't just the bloated empires that would perish (and I repeat: just how is this a good thing? Makes half of the actions or more utterly worthless,) but all the little ones too. Hell, the little ones are the first to go, the big ones just cling to life a bit longer.

And "the serpent eats its tail"? Are you TRYING to get people to argue?! In a game format like this, that's positively self-destructive. The DM'S secret: keep your players happy. The Evil DM never has a party to abuse for long. I'll play a game where my actions actually have value, thank you very much.

If everybody's actions will be futile in a few weeks, nobody will bother to play. If it's down to one or two civilizations, that leaves VERY little room for creativity. Which, of course, means few people will bother to play.


EDIT: Oh yeah, and what about people who haven't posted for a week? The grace period by these rules is 1 week. And remember that the site was DOWN for a week? The system the way you have it is utterly unforgiving.

[Grinner]

It isn't just the bloated empires that would perish (and I repeat: just how is this a good thing? Makes half of the actions or more utterly worthless,) but all the little ones too. Hell, the little ones are the first to go, the old ones just cling to life a bit longer.

And "the serpent eats its tail"? Are you TRYING to get people to argue?! In a game format like this, that's positively self-destructive. The DM'S secret: keep your players happy. The Evil DM never has a party to abuse for long. I'll play a game where my actions actually have value, thank you very much.

If everybody's actions will be futile in a few weeks, nobody will bother to play. If it's down to one or two civilizations, that leaves VERY little room for creativity.

Ourborous, the tail-eating serpent. It's a metaphor for the cycle of life, among other things.

And yes, they will be futile. Therein lies the secret to good drama. As things stand, players get an indefinite supply of AP, leaving them free to expand the setting indefinitely with no regard for verisimilitude or basic storytelling. Meanwhile the less productive players save up all of their AP and screw with other players.

With this cumulative upkeep idea, ancient calcified civilizations are eventually forced into decline while the new kids on the block rise to the top; you don't get Mary Sue civilizations. While each player can get fewer things done with their weekly allotment of AP, that conversely forces each action they take to mean more. You actually have to collaborate to get anything done.

Creativity is not a matter of limitless potential. To be creative, you must have limits to overcome. With the simple upkeep idea, any game could reasonably be expected to stagnate. This cumulative upkeep just keeps the ball rolling.

[Man on Fire]

I think you missed my follow up post that was actually rather different in costs and setup completely from the one you quoted. Please read that one.

Edit: link here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15258379&postcount=209)

I'm two sentences in and I already dislike it. One week is a blink of an eye in the game, most of time you wont even have a chance to finish what you wanted to do with that civilisation, heck knows I spend my first month in the game just creating not-orcs and their society and even missed one war because of it (okay, rather didn't participare for lack of points, as I spended all of them on not-orcs).

You are forgettign about important thing here. Yes, collapse and ruin are part of cycle of life, but so is growth and change. I would rather suggest this, sorta similiar but different, system instead:

Every civilisation goes through three different phases in it's existence.

1) Expansion. During expansion society is rapidly evolving and the country is conquering everything hey set their sight on, in order to take new lands. During this time all actions made in order to make that civilisation stronger, be it political change, new inventions or godly aid during war, have their cost reduced by half, rounded up (so action costing 3 willcost 2, action costing 1 will still cost 1, action costing 6 will cost 3). Also, all actions made to make their situation worse cost twice as much AP (so cursing the civilisation for 3 now costs 6) Expansion phase lasts 5 weeks, but might be prolonged by spending cumulative amount of AP (no earlier than in 5th week however) - basic cost i 1 AP + amount of AP already spend on prolonging Expansion in previous turns. You spend 1 AP to prologn Expansion by one week, 2 for two weeks, 3 for three weeks etc. If Expansion lasts over 15 weeks, society immiediately enters Decline.

2) Stabilisation: Durign this time the civilisation settles down, endign era of conquest and instead it's time of preserving the status quo. It doesn't mean that new thigs won't happen, however they're not so easy as before. During this phase all AP costs regarding the civilisation stays as default rules state. Stabilisation lasts 5 weeks, you can spend Ap to prolong it each week (starting at last week), which equals 1+ number of weeks you already prolonged by+half of the points spend on last week of Expansion you prolonged, rounded down (so if you entered Stabilisation after 5 turns it' 1, you you prolonged expansion by 3 turns it's 2, if you prolonged expansion by six turns it's 4).

3) Decline: Society is collapsing, old values have been lost in decadency of rulers, internal and external problems plague the civilisation. Durign this time all actions made to improve the state of the civilisation cost twice as much (so creating their new leader for 3 points costs 6) and all made to make their situation worse have AP cost reduced by half, rounded down (so making neighboor country declare war on them for 4 costs 2, setting tyrant o nthe throne for 3 costs 1 and making small plague for 1 if free). Decline lats 5 weeks after which civlisation collapses and is destroyed. Decline can be prolonged by spending each week (starting from the last one) amount of AP equal 1+number of turns already spent on prolonging Decay + Amount of AP spend on last week of Expansion prolonged-half of the amount of AP spend on the last week of stabilisation prolonged rounded down.

Example: Half-god Morgoth created gave BTrols their own country. Now, for the first 5 weeks of its existence Morgoth spends points to make it conquer nearby nations and lands, gives them new technology, teaches thm political structure, all for half the price. Morgoth decided to prolong their Expansion for five weeks, ending up with having to pay 6 AP for next week, so he decided to enter Stabilisation. This slowed the evolution of the Trolls, but in that amount of time Morgoth had enough time to enter higher level and now is a Lesser Diety, so he has enough power to make sure Trolls are important player on political map. In order to keep that state after five turns, which wa enough for him to advance to Diety, he prolongs Stabilisation by two weeks. First week he spends 1+2 (5/2 roudned down) for first week and 2+2 for the second, so in last week he spend 4 points. As troll society enters decline Morgoth tries to save it from collapsing. He has to spend 1+0+5-2=4 points to prologn Decay by one week, 5 to prolong it for two etc. As the combined cost of prolonging troll empire's existence and keeping it from threats of other gods piles up, he decided to abbandon it. While their civiliation collapses, he ascends to Greater Diety and tarts building several new civiliations on the ruins o Troll Empire

what it gives us is this:
* New gods can easily create new civilisation and develop it much faster.
* It makes it also harder and harder to keep it like this
* It doesn't make it that one god will keep their civilisation and never have a chance to do anything else, which is bound to happen in your system.
* It makes it impossible to keep the civilisation as the top dog forever
* It gives gods buffer zone of five weeks after entering each state, so they don't have to worry al lthe time about their civilisation.
* It ecounrages players to settle down with their creation at some point and try to keep it this way for some time.
* It rewards you for keeping civilisation in Expansion phase (by reducing the costs of helping it and made it harder for others to hurt it) and later in Stabilisation (by keeping Decline away).
* It actually punishes you for staying in Decline and desperately keeping the civilisation alive.


Also, more thigs to that:
* When civilisation collapses it doesn't mean you lose all your stuff.
* Your race is still there and you can build new civilisation for them.
* Relics would go into "lost" state, but you could always make them be found and new civilisation be build around them.
* You may keep any heroes or leaders you had, or at least some of them and use them to start new civilisation.
* Organisations could survive in some shape and continue, even through age who created them had been lost.
This quote should apply to that situation:

At such time, anyone is capable of claiming some of the survivors to make a new civilization, though they can also be left as relics of the past, wanderers and vagabonds, or simply ignored and assumed to have died off. However, no new civilization may be started in the exact same location for at least two weeks. New civilizations can not simply be the same civilization remade and must be a new concept, though it can be a progression of the old. For example, the Cordran Empire falls, and, a few generations later, the Cordran Coalition rises from the ashes as an attempt to regain the glory of the past; however, they have a more democratic form of government and different values and goals. They may even worship totally different gods.

[Grinner]

*good ideas*

So, is this centered around the current AP accrual and costs? Either way, they will need to be redone.

[Rizban]

And now you're tracking multiple extra variables for each civilization. I'm leery about adding too much for fear of wandering into the historically disastrous civ rules arena.

I'd still prefer a more rules light game with a minimal number of rules, a few simple guidelines, and a suggestion for conflict resolution, leaving it as a mostly freeform game. We just need enough rules to reduce the number of "nuh uh" situations.

As to the loss of things over the weeks, I'm approaching this from the viewpoint of the original game in that each week represents 100 to 1000 years. I always found it odd that moral heroes, even Fighters, always lived thousands of years in these games...


Edit: In response to the vehement opposition to my upkeep suggestion, I did preface it with the comments that it would be a very different game and would require reworking the entire existing system to implement in a reasonable fashion. I would never expect it to just be thrown in on the existing rules.

[Man on Fire]

So, is this centered around the current AP accrual and costs? Either way, they will need to be redone.

If you meant the numbers I was throwing around, I just used random ones to show what I mean. I don't even know if and how current Ap system looks like, comapred to original one.

[Preaplanes]

Ourborous, the tail-eating serpent. It's a metaphor for the cycle of life, among other things.

And yes, they will be futile. Therein lies the secret to good drama. As things stand, players get an indefinite supply of AP, leaving them free to expand the setting indefinitely with no regard for verisimilitude or basic storytelling. Meanwhile the less productive players save up all of their AP and screw with other players.

With this cumulative upkeep idea, ancient calcified civilizations are eventually forced into decline while the new kids on the block rise to the top; you don't get Mary Sue civilizations. While each player can get fewer things done with their weekly allotment of AP, that conversely forces each action they take to mean more. You actually have to collaborate to get anything done.

Creativity is not a matter of limitless potential. To be creative, you must have limits to overcome. With the simple upkeep idea, any game could reasonably be expected to stagnate. This cumulative upkeep just keeps the ball rolling.

You need "limits" to be creative? http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash4/276662_421183141295259_2034628147_q.jpg

There's an invention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel) I'd like you to look up.

And sure, the ball keeps rolling, but it's rolling over its players is the problem. Why should I bother to make something in such a clunky system if it's just going to smash my stuff anyway? The obvious answer is you wouldn't, you'd just make mortals in leaderless clans and leave it at that.


Betrayer had a better idea what to do with the cumulative upkeep. I'd still never pay it, there are better ways to protect your stuff, but still it was better.

[Rizban]

You need "limits" to be creative? http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash4/276662_421183141295259_2034628147_q.jpg

There's an invention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel) I'd like you to look up.He said "limits to overcome," not "limits". I would say there are a lot of limits you have to overcome to write a novel, writer's block being chief among them.



... there are better ways to protect your stuff, but still it was better.This is the mindset that I have difficulty with understanding in LoC games. What's the point of playing collaboratively if you're unwilling to share your toys?

My whole purpose, as stated, was to give up this mindset. The focus isn't on hoarding your toys, or even about your toys at all. It's focused on telling the story of the world. The special snowflakes fall glimmering to earth, melt, and new ones take their place. This doesn't impede the story, it encourages it to progress ever forward rather than stagnating in a standoff where No one is willing to give up anything they have made.

This cumulative upkeep system does not rob you of anything except for the ability to declare a single civilization immortal. Concepts, artifacts, creations, etc remain in play. Even heroes can, though I'm still a proponent of heroes only lasting for a single, short story arch before dying of old age.

Again, this is NOT a suggestion for LoC as you know it but for a different style altogether, a style similar to what we almost accomplished in the first game. If that's not your style, that's fine. That doesn't make it a "bad" way to want to play.

[NichG]

Also kinda limiting on just what the world can be. I dislike the idea. "There can only be so much stuff, depending entirely on the number of deities and nothing else." Yeah, THAT'LL work out well as time goes on.

It's a choice between "Stagnant" and "Empty" with that system.


Considering that the gods grow in power over time, graduating to Intermediate and eventually Elder gods, this wouldn't be a fixed amount of stuff - it'd be an amount whose growth is more stringently limited. The point that others were trying to make w.r.t. destruction of things is, it keeps the world from getting cluttered.

To put it another way, there is a de-facto limit to the amount of stuff in the game. That limit is the amount of stuff the players can keep in mind when declaring actions. If there are more things in the world than anyone can track, some things just don't get used, mentioned, etc. They are effectively absent without the benefit of having a concrete transition or ending to 'settle' them.

With something like an upkeep system the gods have a choice between 'sustain, change, or replace'. They can keep something as it is (so you can have immortal ancient civilizations like the elves), change it in order to adapt it to some new need (so you have civilizations that look very different than their ancient selves), or replace it utterly, discarding the previous form for a full renewal (so you get your ruins).

Under this idea, I think 'upkeep = no total destruction' is a fair thing to do. You could still have reductions and degredations. If the death god volcanoes the nation of the elves, the elves are reduced in power; the point is, their god can either say 'I like the elves enough that I'm going to pay the same upkeep to sustain a weaker nation' or they can say 'nuts to the elves, their time is done, lets make lava faeries now that rise to ascendancy in the volcanic floes' and sacrifice their creation in order to use that slot for something more appropriate to the current state of the world. Or they could put more resources in and give the elves magic that creates domes that protect them from the lava (e.g. put a blessing into play to help mitigate the curse), but this then raises the elven upkeep to effectively keep them where they were before.

A compounding upkeep system goes way too far I'd say, and basically 'gives' the concept space of the rules to the gods of destruction by making their core concepts something that just happens automatically due to the rules. The default should probably be a kind of neutrality - basically 'things exist while people still care about them'.

[Preaplanes]

He said "limits to overcome," not "limits". I would say there are a lot of limits you have to overcome to write a novel, writer's block being chief among them.


This is the mindset that I have difficulty with understanding in LoC games. What's the point of playing collaboratively if you're unwilling to share your toys?

My whole purpose, as stated, was to give up this mindset. The focus isn't on hoarding your toys, or even about your toys at all. It's focused on telling the story of the world. The special snowflakes fall glimmering to earth, melt, and new ones take their place. This doesn't impede the story, it encourages it to progress ever forward rather than stagnating in a standoff where No one is willing to give up anything they have made.

This cumulative upkeep system does not rob you of anything except for the ability to declare a single civilization immortal. Concepts, artifacts, creations, etc remain in play. Even heroes can, though I'm still a proponent of heroes only lasting for a single, short story arch before dying of old age.

Again, this is NOT a suggestion for LoC as you know it but for a different style altogether, a style similar to what we almost accomplished in the first game. If that's not your style, that's fine. That doesn't make it a "bad" way to want to play.

A different game altogether would be fine, though that brings up "So WHY you posting it here?!"

And it's not that I mind sharing my toys. Those Gnomes I mentioned earlier? I'm the one that made them, I'm sharing them with two other players. I may also be headed for war with Aurea Civitas, the other major civilization I mentioned.

It's that I mind sharing my toys with people who want to break them.

[Grinner]

You need "limits" to be creative? http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-ash4/276662_421183141295259_2034628147_q.jpg

There's an invention (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novel) I'd like you to look up.

Yeah, ever tried writing one? You can stare at a blank screen for hours, all of the potential in the world glowing before your eyes. And you know what? Until you set limits on what you're going to write, you're going to continue staring at that blank screen, paralyzed by indecision.

It's much easier to put the jigsaw puzzle together when you've got all the pieces. It's much harder to put it together when you've got to make each piece from scratch.


And sure, the ball keeps rolling, but it's rolling over its players is the problem. Why should I bother to make something in such a clunky system if it's just going to smash my stuff anyway? The obvious answer is you wouldn't, you'd just make mortals in leaderless clans and leave it at that.


Betrayer had a better idea what to do with the cumulative upkeep. I'd still never pay it, there are better ways to protect your stuff, but still it was better.

His idea would eventually leave a landscape littered with dying civilizations, never even given a proper death, and uncannily perfect societies presided over by Mary Sue.

[Preaplanes]

Yeah, ever tried writing one? You can stare at a blank screen for hours, all of the potential in the world glowing before your eyes. And you know what? Until you set limits on what you're going to write, you're going to continue staring at that blank screen, paralyzed by indecision.

It's much easier to put the jigsaw puzzle together when you've got all the pieces. It's much harder to put it together when you've got to make each piece from scratch.



His idea would eventually leave a landscape littered with dying civilizations, never even given a proper death, and uncannily perfect societies presided over by Mary Sue.

I make my living as a novelist, I think I should know.


You don't LIMIT yourself, you know what you're going to write, then write it. A basic premise for each chapter, what I want to be accomplished, how each character acts, and where the story is leading as a whole. I also think up good quotes sometimes to really flesh out a character.

[Rizban]

A different game altogether would be fine, though that brings up "So WHY you posting it here?!"

And it's not that I mind sharing my toys. Those Gnomes I mentioned earlier? I'm the one that made them, I'm sharing them with two other players. I may also be headed for war with Aurea Civitas, the other major civilization I mentioned.

It's that I mind sharing my toys with people who want to break them.I said different style, not different game... *sigh*

Even if your view of "how things should be" leaves no room for my particular suggestion, I still think that it's a move in the right direction, even if it's not the best implementation of the idea.

I never said you have to let anyone break your toys. If you want to sit and play with the same toy for thousands of game years, good on you. my upkeep suggestion is meant to ensure that new toys come into play regularly and discarded ones go away as well as allowing other who think, for example, "Hey, those gnomes are cool, I'd like to grab some for a similar thing" the ability to do so easily.

My upkeep system was meant to force sharing and collaboration and the progression of the story. If that's not your thing, then, no, I wouldn't suggest using it. That doesn't mean it has no place in LoC.

[Man on Fire]

And now you're tracking multiple extra variables for each civilization. I'm leery about adding too much for fear of wandering into the historically disastrous civ rules arena.

Don't know what civ rules were. And my idea is just simple math, you couldn't make it simpler.


I'd still prefer a more rules light game with a minimal number of rules, a few simple guidelines, and a suggestion for conflict resolution, leaving it as a mostly freeform game. We just need enough rules to reduce the number of "nuh uh" situations.

And we also need these rules to make sure they don't make it impossible to play.
Your rules however would mean I cannot do anything if I wan't lucky guy to start with everybody else as Lesser Diety. As Half-God I have 10 starting points, barerly enough to make new race and civilisation + 2 points each week (3 if I'll spend 3 points on new form, but that means I have only 7 points for making my civilisation, which means I'll spend more time on making my civilisation. With your idea it means I don't even have points to spend on keeping civilisation alive after few turns, because bonus points will be quickly eaten and I'm struck with two points per turn, unable to do anything important with my creation, and unable to even advance to higher level to get more points. I cannot give my civilisation a leader (not enough points), I cannot do anything worthwile with them (only few things will be in my reach), I cannot lead them to war (not enough points to nto get smashed down) - what's the point of having these guys? This would horribly slow down development of civilisation andlater made it impossible to keep it alive for more than few turns. We woudl end with bunch of random races raising for hort amount of time and falling, because gods didn't had enough points. I preffer this game to be fast-paced, where gods in one post do many things.

My system gives gods five weeks in which they can develop their civilisation and even get boost that makes it cheaper, so they have enough time and resources to do whatever tehy want with it. Then they can prolong this time or enter next one and play it as normal thing, without bonuses. At this point they alreadyshould have developed their civilisation and can do things with it like interactions with others or stuff like that. When Decline comes they simply have to deal with their creation slowly falling apart and i gets harder to save it. Nothing very complciated about it and always give you time to do other stuff and doesn't immiediately punish you for not spending 100% of your time and resources on your creation.

And in my system I think combat could be simplified. It's now this:
God A: I spend 3 AP to punch god B.
God B gets punched and loses 3 AP.

We don't need more.


As to the loss of things over the weeks, I'm approaching this from the viewpoint of the original game in that each week represents 100 to 1000 years.

that was the first thing we threw out of our game as impractical. It doesn't make sense, ebcause sometimes you don't have enough points to finish something at time in one turn. We had huge war that lasted five weeks. We agreed it woudl be stupid for it to be 500 years long, it was just 10-20, so my hero, who was young when it started, was 40 when it ended. Game should operate on assumption that each week is "as many years as the gods need". Your viewpoint completely ignores the fact people don't have time or don't want to work on such scale. We don't have time to write dozens of pages (not extrageration, in our game if gods got together we would produce posts that were of that length, even simpel conversation between two dieties coudl last 5 A4 pages of normalized text) to resolve things in one post, we don't have time to get together at the same time to write sometimes very lenghty describtions of what happens in a week-long deadline, we don't have time to write epic story of what our heroes actually do all in the same week we created them. Creative process, especially one done for fun, doesn't work with this asusmption at all, because it stops you from doing what you want and having fun with your creations.

And what's the point of creating a hero if he's gonan die next week?

[Rizban]

Man on Fire, what part of saying the system will have to be changed to accommodate the upkeep was unclear? Yes, of course it's impossible to do it with the AP and actions as written. I said that.

The premise is that those would be changed to reflect the system as updated.

[Man on Fire]

Man on Fire, what part of saying the system will have to be changed to accommodate the upkeep was unclear? Yes, of course it's impossible to do it with the AP and actions as written. I said that.

The premise is that those would be changed to reflect the system as updated.

Post the change of entire system to accomodate your rules and then we can talk. So far you're asking us to judge something that doesn't work without this changes. You present us a tire and what I'm going to judge it as if you don't show us a car it belongs to? Your idea as it is now is incomplete and cannot be judged without showing this entire new system to accomodate it.

[Grinner]

I make my living as a novelist, I think I should know.

Yes, you should. :smallannoyed:

Moving on...


With something like an upkeep system the gods have a choice between 'sustain, change, or replace'. They can keep something as it is (so you can have immortal ancient civilizations like the elves), change it in order to adapt it to some new need (so you have civilizations that look very different than their ancient selves), or replace it utterly, discarding the previous form for a full renewal (so you get your ruins).

Under this idea, I think 'upkeep = no total destruction' is a fair thing to do. You could still have reductions and degredations. If the death god volcanoes the nation of the elves, the elves are reduced in power; the point is, their god can either say 'I like the elves enough that I'm going to pay the same upkeep to sustain a weaker nation' or they can say 'nuts to the elves, their time is done, lets make lava faeries now that rise to ascendancy in the volcanic floes' and sacrifice their creation in order to use that slot for something more appropriate to the current state of the world. Or they could put more resources in and give the elves magic that creates domes that protect them from the lava (e.g. put a blessing into play to help mitigate the curse), but this then raises the elven upkeep to effectively keep them where they were before.

A compounding upkeep system goes way too far I'd say, and basically 'gives' the concept space of the rules to the gods of destruction by making their core concepts something that just happens automatically due to the rules. The default should probably be a kind of neutrality - basically 'things exist while people still care about them'.

I proposed earlier that, under the simple upkeep system, a destroyed civilization is not destroyed. So long as the upkeep is paid, the civilization would rise back to its former glory.

The problem with simple upkeep is that I doubt most players would willingly discard their own civilization. Without more AP to spend on actions, they would do nothing, and the game would falter. The cumulative upkeep forces things to keep moving, though it doesn't necessarily have to increase every week.

[Preaplanes]

Gotta go with Man on Fire with this one. If you need to retool an ENTIRE system to do that, you've got to show us more than what it's based around.

[Rizban]

Post the change of entire system to accomodate your rules and then we can talk.Seriously? I can't just throw out a suggestion without rewriting the whole system for you? Is it impossible to imagine that you would have more AP available if something like my suggestion were maple enter without having to write out everything?


Gotta go with Man on Fire with this one.

Alright, harken back to the link I provided to the original ruleset. Take that, drop the combat rules, increase weekly AP across the board by 2, and add my suggestion for cumulative upkeep with two free weeks instead of one. That should work nicely, and I know for a fact from experience playing that ruleset that it is possible to get 20ish AP/week in that system after a month or two without really trying too hard.

Since Upkeep is, as I stated, an explicit AP action, it does count towards gaining DR and eventually acquiring more AP.

[Grinner]

I can't find the link you're talking about.

[Rizban]

Here it is, the first post I made in this thread. As I said, drop the combat rules and the d&d class stuff from it. Increase base AP by 2 at each level.


Just a thought for you guys, but the original rules for LoC can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83820) and here (http://locitp.mornproductions.com/DivineActions). I'm not saying they're the best, but they worked exceptionally well the first time we ever ran an LoC on this site. If you aren't using that as some sort of reference point, I think it's worth looking back at them.

That second link also has the majority of that world recorded in a more or less playable format for campaign use, which is supposed to be the primary purpose of LoC: a world building exercise to create a fleshed out campaign setting.

[Betrayer]

First of all, I don't think you need to give a whole new system just to make suggestions about what one might look like, although broad strokes are always nice, so thanks for those. :smallsmile:


OK, so I think we're splitting into a couple of camps here, depending on what we want from our games, and then we're splitting up over how best to achieve it.

The main camps are as follows (as far as I can tell):
1. All mortal creations should rise, stagnate and fall over a period of time, to create history.
2. LoC is about creating interesting things, and it isn't fair if these are removed after large amounts of AP are spent on them.

Then camp one splits into:
1a) The rise and fall of mortal creations is crucial of itself for the story of the game to progress, and the game mechanics should cause the fall by itself, if that is what it takes.
1b) The rise and fall of mortal creations should be facilitated by gods and other mortals, because that makes the story more interesting - we should try and facilitate other players causing the fall in the rules, even if this means less consistency of falling.

Does everyone feel they fall into one of those?

I reckon I'm about a 1b.

[Grinner]

Yep, that's about the sum of it.

Edit: 1b would be fine if it weren't for that one game-stopping flaw.

[Betrayer]

Sorry, what is the game stopping flaw? That falls aren't consistent?

[Rizban]

With that breakdown, I would be in 1b.

I don't think my upkeep suggestion is at a point that it should be injected into a game. I did, after all, just throw it together in a couple of minutes as I was doing other things. Still, I do believe that it is focused in the right direction.

My chief concern is for the story of the world as a whole, which is what I have, for the past 5 years, believed that Lords of Creation should be about. It is a game about all creation, not a tale about one or two heroes in one small city in one nation. The latter is the focus of "standard" RPGs and is well and good. I have just always felt that the world should grow and move on from where it started, which isn't always going to happen when you have the same "We Existed Before The Sun" ElvesTM that never change, grow, or develop and just suck up a large chunk on the map with effectively nothing there but the world "elves".

[Grinner]

This one:


I proposed earlier that, under the simple upkeep system, a destroyed civilization is not destroyed. So long as the upkeep is paid, the civilization would rise back to its former glory.

The problem with simple upkeep is that I doubt most players would willingly discard their own civilization. Without more AP to spend on actions, they would do nothing, and the game would falter. The cumulative upkeep forces things to keep moving, though it doesn't necessarily have to increase every week.

Basically, the problem is that players, if this debate has shown us anything, get really attached to their creations. I have also suggested allowing certain actions to be performed under special circumstances at no cost to help move things a bit, but I don't think that would be too effective.

Edit: How about giving incentives for allowing your civilization to decline? That way, the Camp 2 folks can keep expanding their civilizations as much as they want, while everyone else can move history onwards.

Edit 2: Rewards would be given in proportion to the size of the civilization.

[Rizban]

If there's anything that this rules discussion has reinforced for me, it is that observation right there. When LoC stopped being about homebrewing a campaign world with a collaborative story and became about my race, my civilization, my toys, it stopped being LoC. there were other god games around back n the day that, frankly, had much better rules for playing a god game. Why LoC stuck around when the others didn't, and why it lost its original purpose, I just don't understand.