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nightninja101
2013-05-25, 02:14 AM
http://www.wallpaperup.com/uploads/wallpapers/2012/12/13/24596/9bf2791f06b5efdfa9319e2ae7347d32.jpg

The Concept: Pathfinder death attack centered class based on firing, hiding, and eliminating single targets

Constraints: preferably mundane means of operation, not a magical class, looking for a tier 2-4. primary means of execution (death attack, etc.) must be available throughout the class, with improvements made to this throughout level.
1-20 full base class leveling. though is excellent at ranged combat and single target elimination, should not be particularly powerful at close range or if discovered.

Suggestions: ranged save or die, full round action, 10+1/2 class level + relevant modifier (int?). higher levels apply choice of status conditions, ability damage, specialized scenario components, etc., as well as perhaps a decrease on the time needed to death attack. extraordinary abilities centered on not being seen, killing with one shot, increasing effective kill range, perhaps a "focus mode" special ability. Perhaps a class specific weapon centered around mid-high range, but with penalties at short range? must be viable at all levels of play.

I have never seen a sniping class of this caliber, dedicated to the true art of one-shot-one-kill BOOM-headshot style combat. I realize this may get boring, any things to make the class more interesting would be appreciated. Just another person dealing save or dies each round isn't what I'm looking for, though the sniping mystique must be captured. Please help!

Kane0
2013-05-25, 07:13 AM
I'm sure i did something like this a while back, it might help. Let me see if i can dig it out of my sig...

CinuzIta
2013-05-25, 08:29 AM
okay, let see if I can throw in two or three suggestions..I've never tried something like this but maybe I can try to give some useful hints!

- Death attack should come in quite soon, since you want it to be the signature ability of the class. Something like level 4 or 5 should do.

- A Ranged Surprise Attack could be a good way to make the class stronger against unaware targets. If discovered, the sniper would lose a good part of his damage output.

- Maybe some special ability that reduce the malus of Furtivity checks after the class attacks. This bonus could scale until it disappear.

- Maybe some supernatural ability that suppress all the non vocal rumors coming from the sniper's position (read square).

- Hide in plain sight and Camouflage both in natural and in urban terrain comes to mind.

- To represent the fact that the class is very skilled in attacks from the distance, it could have a medium bab with melee weapons and a full bab when using ranged weapons.

- Track and other bonus feats could help the class as well.

- A special ability (Study Target) that let the sniper analyze his opponent for some rounds in order to gain a bonus to his attack rolls equal to the number of round he has spent studying the opponent could be nice. A drawback could be the fact that the target shouldn't move more than 5 or 10 feet in order to obtain this bonus.

- Another special ability could be that of teleporting 30 feet away after certain attacks, in order to get better concealment.

- See Invisibility would help the sniper to find hidden targets.

Sorry if I haven't posted a table but I'm writing from the cellphone. I hope that that you'll find my suggestions useful in some way.:)

Phippster
2013-05-25, 09:02 AM
Snipers need to be able to maneuver from position to position, move from one area to another without being spotted, and pick out targets at extreme range. I'm thinking no less than a 6+Int skill points due to his needed array of abilities.

See Invisibility, and later some sort of True Seeing effect, are almost a necessity at later levels if you want to be effective. Someway of building them into the class, perhaps with a chosen weapon kind of deal, would be a boon in late-level play.

You could introduce an aiming mechanic that increases the weapon's crit multiplier for each round aimed, and allow for alternate effects from your attack by decreasing the crit multiplier by a certain amount. Works in a similar fashion to 3.5 ambush feats with sneak attack. Include clause that aiming at an enemy unaware of your position is an automatic crit, thereby giving you a source of damage. Some sort of ability that lets you crit/precision damage typically immune targets would be necessary if you go that route.

EDIT: You think you can reduce the size of that image? That screen stretch is just brutal.

CinuzIta
2013-05-25, 09:42 AM
now that I think about it, one of the main problems with this class is that the sniper is supposed to operate from long distances (and when I say long distances, I truly mean it), but no weapon has a particullary high range.

Maybe you could add a class feature that add 10'/level to the effective range of any ranged weapon the sniper is holding.

If you think that 200' at 20th level is too much you can half it by giving the sniper 5'/level of extra range instead of 10', for a total of an extra 100' at 20th level..

wayfare
2013-05-25, 10:03 AM
I'd say start with a sneak attack style damage booster, maybe something like this:

Sniper Shot (ex): If the sniper takes a Standard action to aim at his target, his next successful attack against that target inflicts an additional 1d6 damage +1d6/2 levels.

Now that you have this additional pool of damage dice, you can start trading the dice to inflict status effects (daze, paralyze, entangle, slow, prone, bleeding/DoT seem appropriate). Once you hit level 6 (when assassins get death attack) you can add that to the list of what you can do with sniper dice.

Additionally, you cab reduce the time it takes to set up a sniper shot to Move action at 7th level and Swift action at 14th level.

Just my 2cp! Good luck on your class!

nightninja101
2013-05-25, 03:43 PM
Thanks! I am unskilled myself both in the balanced homebrew and in GitP forum format (tables, etc.), so this is just throwing some ideas around, or as a challenge to whomever should make one.

The scaling death attack is a must, and probably 6+int skill points, as this will be a partly skill focused class.

In the levels leading up to the death attack, something else must be substituted.

Threatening multiple squares would be excellent, going well with the flavor of the class and providing some projection should our sniper be discovered.

These builds have a previous attempt on the sniper, though seem to focus on archery more than sniping. The difference? Bows in d&d seem to work best with multiple volleys of shots, because no ability modifier affects the damage without some feat or external ability. D&D is not designed for sniping, the limit on death attacks to melee emphasizes that.

Perhaps a new weapon, crossbow style? Something akin to the great crossbow, but more of a precision instrument and less of just a big gun?

flare'90
2013-05-25, 05:34 PM
You might want to resize or spoiler the image.

nightninja101
2013-05-25, 10:33 PM
Done and done, image spoilerized.

The above system of damage die for status conditions sounds interesting, and adds a level of decision making that would give the class choices.

This begs the question, based on the sneak attack die progression of a rogue, what should the sniper be able to exchange a given number of d6s for, in terms of status conditions or other fun bits that go with the flavor of the class. As the sniper is all about applying precision damage, these status conditions would also have no effect if the target, unless it isnt just the sniper shooting them in some fancy way. (take the legs for slow, spine hit for paralysis, etc)

Urban and Natural hide in plain sight is a must, as well as something to hide before and after shooting.

Yitzi
2013-05-25, 11:25 PM
Here's an idea: He can take a full round to aim (with a projectile weapon) at a target not aware of his presence; the following round, if the target is still not aware of his presence, he may make a single attack which is an automatic crit. Then give him abilities that increase his crit multiplier with ranged weapons and give limited ability to bypass resist-crit abilities.

wayfare
2013-05-25, 11:35 PM
Here is what i've come up with between episodes of Fringe. Feel free to take any or none of it -- its not complete, because I think you probably know best what skills you'd like and what bonus feats you think would be most applicable.

Mechanically, the thing is outright inferior to a rogue when it comes to attacking -- but it has a ton of options to wound enemies and can kill folks pretty early on. it also has some soft control options for some tactical ability. I specifically did not include any abilities that are explicitly supernatural, but I could probably come up with 10 more if you'd like some supernatural options: i just stuck as close to "sniper guy" as possible.

Keep in mind that the current wording allows you to stack multiple Art of War abilities, so you can Daze and Bleed a person in the same go, if you'd like.

The Sniper

Hit Die: d6
Skill Points: 6 + Int
Skills: ???

Table 1.1 – The Sniper
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Sniper Shot

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Sniper Shot; Ranged Precision|+1d8

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat|+1d8

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Art of War|+1d8

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat|+1d8

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|Art of War|+2d8

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+5|
+5|Bonus Feat|+2d8

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+5|
+5|Art of War|+2d8

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat|+2d8

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+6|
+6|Art of War|+3d8

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+7|
+7|Swift Sniper Shot|+3d8

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat|+3d8

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+8|
+8|Art of War|+3d8

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+8|
+8|Bonus Feat|+4d8

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+9|
+9|Art of War|+4d8

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+9|Bonus Feat|+4d8

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+10|
+10|Art of War|+4d8

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat|+5d8

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11|Art of War|+5d8

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat|+5d8

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|One Shot, One Kill|+5d8[/table]

Sniper Shot (Ex): As a move action, you may designate one target you can see as your “mark”. The next successful attack you make against your mark inflicts additional damage as listed on Table 1.1. If your mark is flat-footed, maximize the damage inflicted by a successful attack. Successfully attacking your mark ends the “mark” status.
You may only have one mark active at a time. Choosing a new mark automatically cancels the effect on the previous mark.
At 10th level, you may choose a mark as a swift action.

Ranged Precision (Ex): When you make an attack with a ranged weapon, add your dexterity modifier to the damage inflicted by that weapon. Additionally, you double the range increment of any ranged weapon you use.

Art of War (Ex): The Sniper is a living weapon who uses incredible skill to strike even the most well-protected enemy from vast distances. Because each Sniper is shaped by the war he fights, every sniper has unique training and special “tricks” they use to survive a life of constant conflict. These knacks play to a Snipers strengths, creating one of the most versatile and deadly combatants on the field.

Tactical Positioning (Ex)
Requires: None
Effect: Whenever you hit your mark, you may move up to half your speed. This movement
does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Death Attack (Ex)
Requires: Dexterity 18+; Sniper Level 7
Effect: When you successfully damage your mark, you may sacrifice sniper shot dice to
make your attack a Death Attack. An opponent who is struck by a death attack must make
a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + ˝ Sniper Level + Dexterity modifier) or be instantly slain. An
opponent who successfully saves against this effect takes normal damage, but cannot be
targeted by Death Attack again for 5 rounds.
The number of dice that need to be traded to activate a death attack depends on the Hit
Dice of the opponent you are attacking:

1-6 HD: 1 die
7-12 HD: 2 dice
13-18 HD: 3 dice
19-24 HD: 4 dice
25+ HD: 5 dice

Opponents who are immune to your Sniper Shot are also immune to your death attack.

Breaching Shot (Ex)
Requires: Dexterity 16+; Sniper Shot 1d8
Effect: When you successfully hit your Mark, you may trade away 1 sniper shot die to
ignore any damage reduction possessed by the target for the purpose of this attack.

Kneecapper (Ex)
Requires: Sniper Shot 1d8
Effect: When attacking your Mark, you may trade 1 sniper shot die to attempt to entangle
your opponent. Your opponent is entitled to a Reflex save (DC 10 + ˝ Sniper level +
Dexterity modifier) to resist the effect. On a failure, your opponent is Entangled for 1d4 rounds.

Dazing Shot (Ex)
Requires: Dexterity 16+; Sniper Shot 2d8
Effect: When you successfully hit your Mark, you may trade 2 or more sniper shot dice to
attempt to Daze your opponent. Your opponent is entitled to a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ˝
Sniper level + Dexterity modifier) to resist the effect. On a failure, your opponent is Dazed for 1 round + 1 additional round for every Sniper Shot die beyond the second you traded away to activate this ability.

Chained Sniper Shot (Ex)
Requires: Dexterity 16+; Sniper level 12
Effect: When you successfully attack your Mark, the target does not immediately lose the Marked status. Instead, your next attack against that target inflicts 1 fewer die of Sniper Shot damage than it normally would. Each successful attack reduces the Sniper Shot dice by 1 until you miss, or until you use all of your attacks.
Ending your round of missing an attack ends this effect.

Killbox (Ex)
Requires: Sniper level 5
Effect: As a swift action, you may designate a 10 foot radius within your weapons first range increment as a Killbox. You threaten these squares as if you were making melee attacks into those squares. While this ability is active, you cannot make attacks of opportunity against squares you would normally threaten.

Improved Killbox (Ex)
Requires: Killbox
Effect: When you activate Killbox, increase the threatened radius to 15 feet. Additionally, you can set the Killbox anywhere within your weapon’s second range increment.

Bleeding Wounds (Ex)
Requires: Sniper Shot 1d8
Effect: When you hit your Mark, you may trade 1 or more Sniper Shot dice to inflict a bleeding wound on your target. The target loses 2 hp per round for every Sniper Shot die you trade to use this effect. Every die traded beyond the first increases the DC of the Heal check by 2.

Deadly Wound (Ex)
Requires: Sniper Shot 1d8
Effect: When you hit your Mark, you may trade 1 or more Sniper Shot dice to inflict ability
damage on your target. Your opponent is entitled to a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ˝ Sniper
level + Dexterity modifier) to negate the effect. On a failed save, the opponent takes 2
points of ability damage to the attribute of your choice for every Sniper Shot die traded.

Piercing Shot (Ex)
Requires: Sniper level 5
Effect: As a full action, you may make a 50 foot line attack anywhere within the first
range increment of your weapon. Your opponent is entitled to a Reflex save (DC 10 + ˝
Sniper level + Dexterity modifier) to negate the effect. On a failed save, the opponent
takes normal weapon damage.

Ricochet Attack (Ex)
Requires: None
Effect: You can ignore the effects of partial cover and standard cover against enemies you
attack. Against your Mark, you can ignore improved cover.

Staggering Attack (Ex)
Requires: None
Effect: When you hit your Mark, you can trade 1 die of Sniper Shot damage to render your
opponent flat-footed against the next attack that strikes it.

Eagle-Eyed (Ex)
Requires: None
Effect: Your Ranged Precision ability triples the range increment of your weapon.

Improved Sniping (Ex)
Requires: None
Effect: When you attempt the Sniping option during Stealth, decrease the penalty to -5.

Swift Stealth (Ex)
Requires: None
Effect: You may move up to your full speed when attempting stealth. You can attempt
stealth while running, but you take a -10 penalty to your attempt.

The Quick and the Dead (Su)
Requires: None
Effect: You may draw and reload your weapon as a free action, regardless of the time it
would normally take to do so.
Additionally, during the first round of combat, you inflict maximum damage against any
opponent who has not yet acted.

Ranged Maneuver
Requires: Dexterity 16+; Sniper Shot 1d8
Effect: When you hit your Mark, you may sacrifice 1 Sniper Shot die to initiate a bull rush,
disarm or trip against your opponent, as if you were in an adjacent square. Use your
Dexterity in place of Strength for the purpose of resolving this maneuver.

Cover Fire
Requires: Base Attack +6
Effect: As a full action you may designate a 10 foot radius within your first range
increment as cover fire zone. Allies within this radius have Partial Cover, and enemies
treat this radius as difficult terrain.

Improved Cover Fire
Requires: Cover Fire
Effect: When you use cover fire, allies within a 15 foot radius are treated as having
standard cover. Enemies treat every square of movement as 3 squares.

Thrown Weapon Mastery
Requires: None
Effect: Thrown weapons you employ inflict damage as if they were one size category
larger. You never suffer penalties for using improvised thrown weapons.

True Sniper
Requires: Sniper level 9
Effect: You automatically confirm any critical you threaten while wielding a ranged
weapon.

Anyway, hope this helps of offers some inspiration!

nightninja101
2013-05-26, 06:04 PM
Making it a non-supernatural class if preferable, but not necessary. Even the fighter uses magical gear later on, some of which posess spell like or supernatural abilities.

His damage does seem woefully small, especially since it applies to only one attack. Perhaps rogue progression, or would that make him too tactically powerful while leaving him able to just fire for straight damage? The goal of this is a tier 2-4, probably on the higher side.

Part of this should be remaining undetected, though much of his kit seems based on status conditions, with a bit of movement thrown in. Perhaps a higher level ability that counters magical detection, or something of the like. Remember, this guy is going to have a hard time doing anything if discovered, with no armor proficiency and low HD.

At this point, supernatural abilities and the like seem like the best way to ramp up the power level, even if they go against a pure nonmagical damage dealer. He will need to evolve beyond that. There could be a code of some sort, "be polite, be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet etc." the code could bestow upon them their magical skills while also justifying their will save, like the paladin.

The death attack looks good, and is definitely necessary for a class of this type. The greater investiture of damage die by hit die is good, some shmuck with a big crossbow shouldn't be able to one shot a dragon (despite a dragons fort save being through the roof). The 5 round limitation is strange though, given that there is already a limit on mark acquisition time from sniper shot. Maybe it could scale off of enemy con mod? A frail wizard who got lucky once shouldnt be able to do so again, while the gargantuan colossus probably isnt going to care much about fort saves.

The improved cover fire seems dangerous as well, because of standard cover being granted. A box of invisible people?

Also, the class seems to have a bunch of general stuff as far as combat goes, but not specifically geared toward the mark. Should there be any interactions between the mark and the snipers abilities?

wayfare
2013-05-26, 07:04 PM
Making it a non-supernatural class if preferable, but not necessary. Even the fighter uses magical gear later on, some of which posess spell like or supernatural abilities.

His damage does seem woefully small, especially since it applies to only one attack. Perhaps rogue progression, or would that make him too tactically powerful while leaving him able to just fire for straight damage? The goal of this is a tier 2-4, probably on the higher side.

Part of this should be remaining undetected, though much of his kit seems based on status conditions, with a bit of movement thrown in. Perhaps a higher level ability that counters magical detection, or something of the like. Remember, this guy is going to have a hard time doing anything if discovered, with no armor proficiency and low HD.

At this point, supernatural abilities and the like seem like the best way to ramp up the power level, even if they go against a pure nonmagical damage dealer. He will need to evolve beyond that. There could be a code of some sort, "be polite, be efficient, have a plan to kill everyone you meet etc." the code could bestow upon them their magical skills while also justifying their will save, like the paladin.

The death attack looks good, and is definitely necessary for a class of this type. The greater investiture of damage die by hit die is good, some shmuck with a big crossbow shouldn't be able to one shot a dragon (despite a dragons fort save being through the roof). The 5 round limitation is strange though, given that there is already a limit on mark acquisition time from sniper shot. Maybe it could scale off of enemy con mod? A frail wizard who got lucky once shouldnt be able to do so again, while the gargantuan colossus probably isnt going to care much about fort saves.

The improved cover fire seems dangerous as well, because of standard cover being granted. A box of invisible people?

Now you've got your brewing gloves on!

@ Improved Cover Fire
Whats happening here is not so much that you can't see the people as the sniper makes it dangerous for you to take a look. Imagine that scene in a movie where a character is pinned down behind a barrier of some sort and every time he tries to peer over that barrier a bullet drops his head below cover. Thats whats happening with that ability. That said, you can always add a clause that removes any stealth benefits.

@Death Attack
The 5 round cooldown is to simulate "lining up a head/heart shot", but also to prevent the class from infinite death attack spams. As is, its better than an assassin's death attack (which requires 3 rounds of study), but not as good as a Wizard casting finger of death.
Note that you can attempt multiple consecutive death attacks, just not on the same target.

@Sniper Shot
Increasing the damage to a rogue progression is fine, though you also want to modify the death attack table so that it moves at 3 level increments instead of 6 level increments. Keep it at d8 damage, though, to semi-compensate for the fact that the rogue can make multiple sneak attacks in a round.

@Tier 2-4
2 is not possible without casting or a fairly extensive subsystem.

nightninja101
2013-05-31, 02:03 AM
@ Improved Cover Fire
Whats happening here is not so much that you can't see the people as the sniper makes it dangerous for you to take a look. Imagine that scene in a movie where a character is pinned down behind a barrier of some sort and every time he tries to peer over that barrier a bullet drops his head below cover. Thats whats happening with that ability. That said, you can always add a clause that removes any stealth benefits.

I would edit it to only grant the miss chance part of concealment, as the people within are not invisible. It seems like it would be more of just a miss chance, as the opponents scramble wildly to avoid incoming shots, and miss because of it.


@Death Attack
The 5 round cooldown is to simulate "lining up a head/heart shot", but also to prevent the class from infinite death attack spams. As is, its better than an assassin's death attack (which requires 3 rounds of study), but not as good as a Wizard casting finger of death.
Note that you can attempt multiple consecutive death attacks, just not on the same target.

Lining up the head/heart shot is part of the 3 rounds of study, being able to just alternate between five people seems like it betrays that. Maybe reducing it to a full round action could keep the sniper relevant, while limiting whatever else they can do, because of the focus involved. This is a literal killshot, not something easy to shrug off or dodge. When a wizard can deal out save-or-dies at a frightening rate, is a death attack a round at max really that bad? Also, RAW you can subject a single opponent to multiple death attack saves with a single shot.


@Sniper Shot
Increasing the damage to a rogue progression is fine, though you also want to modify the death attack table so that it moves at 3 level increments instead of 6 level increments. Keep it at d8 damage, though, to semi-compensate for the fact that the rogue can make multiple sneak attacks in a round.

This sounds quite nice, definitely a boom headshot sort of thing. My group doesnt play with the massive damage variant, and is switching to pathfinder anyway (don't know if pathfinder has this rule). If someone were to play with the massive damage variant, at level 10 with a great crossbow they would be making free death attacks each round at no damage dice cost against their mark.

Could there be an art of war ability that lets them hide before and after an attack? And how does uncanny dodge interact with sniper shot?

Maybe stating in the description of sniper shot that for all abilities and effects, it is treated as though it were sneak attack?

Time to test. I am going to implement this in my campaign against the hapless PCs, who will be approaching a baddies lair sometime soon. One or two of these fellows will be covering the entrance!

wayfare
2013-06-01, 03:09 PM
I would edit it to only grant the miss chance part of concealment, as the people within are not invisible. It seems like it would be more of just a miss chance, as the opponents scramble wildly to avoid incoming shots, and miss because of it.



Lining up the head/heart shot is part of the 3 rounds of study, being able to just alternate between five people seems like it betrays that. Maybe reducing it to a full round action could keep the sniper relevant, while limiting whatever else they can do, because of the focus involved. This is a literal killshot, not something easy to shrug off or dodge. When a wizard can deal out save-or-dies at a frightening rate, is a death attack a round at max really that bad? Also, RAW you can subject a single opponent to multiple death attack saves with a single shot.



This sounds quite nice, definitely a boom headshot sort of thing. My group doesnt play with the massive damage variant, and is switching to pathfinder anyway (don't know if pathfinder has this rule). If someone were to play with the massive damage variant, at level 10 with a great crossbow they would be making free death attacks each round at no damage dice cost against their mark.

Could there be an art of war ability that lets them hide before and after an attack? And how does uncanny dodge interact with sniper shot?

Maybe stating in the description of sniper shot that for all abilities and effects, it is treated as though it were sneak attack?

Time to test. I am going to implement this in my campaign against the hapless PCs, who will be approaching a baddies lair sometime soon. One or two of these fellows will be covering the entrance!

Take a look at Sniping as part of Hide -- its already what you want, and I think I have an Art of War that covers that.

Re Death Attack:
I'd bring it up with your group. If they are cool with it, then rock on. But even a wizard runs dry eventually, and the range you can use your death attacks at is quite long.

Re Uncanny Dodge:
Well, you can still be Flanked/Flat footed with Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge, but the mechanical effects are less if you have the ability. Neither alters sniper shot because teh effect isn't canceled.

137ben
2013-06-01, 03:30 PM
2 is not possible without casting or a fairly extensive subsystem.
This is wrong. Tier 1 is possible without a subsystem:
The generic super tier 1
In every world, there are people who think they are powerful. But all pale compared to me.
Skill points per level: As many as there are skills (all skills maxed, all the time)
Class skills: all of them
BAB: Good
Alignment: any
Saves: All good
Class features:
Be Awesome (not su or ex, just awesome): Starting at level 1, the Generic Super Tier 1 gains the ability to do almost anything they want. At any time, you can make up rules/powers concerning your character. You can give yourself any power you can think of, without an action, regardless of who's turn it is. It does not matter how powerful these abilities are--you could give yourself the power to instantly destroy every deity in the universe, with no action required. There are only three restrictions:
1. You cannot gain official spellcasting, nor can you gain any other subsystem, nor can you give yourself the power to give yourself the power to use subsystems. Forbidden systems include, but are not limited to, incarnum, ToB, any of the ToM castings, psionics, divine ranks, and Vancian casting. You can gain abilities which are functionally identical to wizard/cleric/druid spells, but you cannot call them spells. Then you can laugh at anyone who is foolish enough to think that spells, or even subsystems, are required for true power.
2. You cannot override the "Be Awesome" ability of another Generic Super Tier 1 with a GST1 level equal to or greater than your own.
3. You cannot make up rules which alter or bypass restrictions 1, 2, or this one.

Making a tier 2 no-subsystems class which is also interesting/fun to play (rather than just arbitrarily winning everything) is quite challenging. However, it is not impossible. Tier 1 is probably harder to achieve without sillyness like the class I just described.

wayfare
2013-06-01, 03:45 PM
This is wrong. Tier 1 is possible without a subsystem:
The generic super tier 1
In every world, there are people who think they are powerful. But all pale compared to me.
Skill points per level: As many as there are skills (all skills maxed, all the time)
Class skills: all of them
BAB: Good
Alignment: any
Saves: All good
Class features:
Be Awesome (not su or ex, just awesome): Starting at level 1, the Generic Super Tier 1 gains the ability to do almost anything they want. At any time, you can make up rules/powers concerning your character. You can give yourself any power you can think of, without an action, regardless of who's turn it is. It does not matter how powerful these abilities are--you could give yourself the power to instantly destroy every deity in the universe, with no action required. There are only three restrictions:
1. You cannot gain official spellcasting, nor can you gain any other subsystem, nor can you give yourself the power to give yourself the power to use subsystems. Forbidden systems include, but are not limited to, incarnum, ToB, any of the ToM castings, psionics, divine ranks, and Vancian casting. You can gain abilities which are functionally identical to wizard/cleric/druid spells, but you cannot call them spells. Then you can laugh at anyone who is foolish enough to think that spells, or even subsystems, are required for true power.
2. You cannot override the "Be Awesome" ability of another Generic Super Tier 1 with a GST1 level equal to or greater than your own.
3. You cannot make up rules which alter or bypass restrictions 1, 2, or this one.

Making a tier 2 no-subsystems class which is also interesting/fun to play (rather than just arbitrarily winning everything) is quite challenging. However, it is not impossible. Tier 1 is probably harder to achieve without sillyness like the class I just described.

Be Awesome is a subsystem that allows you to produce any effect. :smallbiggrin: Still a subsystem, just less limited than the ones wizards or clerics (etc, etc) get access to.

The Warlock is T4/3 and it actually does have a subsystem that grants many of the goodies that we asssociate with T1/2, it just lacks the sheer volume to be a higher tier. You need a large volume of abilities or a few extremely versatile abilities (shapechange, dominate) to hit T2

137ben
2013-06-01, 03:56 PM
Be Awesome is a subsystem that allows you to produce any effect. Still a subsystem, just less limited than the ones wizards or clerics (etc, etc) get access to.
Although, I wouldn't call it "fairly expansive", given how brief and simple it is (do anything except steal someone else's class features...)
I will say that I don't think this class should be aiming (no pun intended) for tier 2, though, as it seems like a lot more people prefer tier 3-4, and just use tier 2 classes because they are compatible with tier 3.