A Monster amongst Monsters

[AlanBruce]

Greetings! I'm running a fairly high level campaign where the human cleric of pelor has, after fighting countless terrible abominations, decided that he would better serve pelor by being one himself, risking his position in the extablished churches of the world.

This is his build, using DMM Persist and focused heavily on combat:

Clr 3/Contemplative 2/Church Inq.4/RSoP5

The man is very pious and faith driven, but he has seen horrors in the world and has battled such horrors.

After meeting incarnations of the Positive and Negative energy Planes- sentient artifacts, he wishes to undergo the transformation to a vampire.

This vampire would be shunned by the church, but he would still like to retain Pelor's blessings (class features, such as spells).

Is this possible? If it is, there is the whole feeding issue. Attempting to retain his good alignment while not feeding off sentient life and traveling with a very much alive party would bring about problems if he consciously denies said feeding.

I was asking if anyone would be so kind to create a mechanic for thsi instance. Both the feeding issue and how he would be able to cast spells from the god of light and sun as a vampire.

Thank you very much.

[dantiesilva]

I would be the player in question if anyone needs to ask me any questions like....

Are you an idiot? Well yes I am thank you

Are you trying to make a suicidal guy? Well self sacrifice is the quickest way into heaven now adays. Dieng to protect others and all.

Ok now that we got that done. My idea came off of watching Helsing Ulitmate. I liked the ideas of vampires working to destroy other vampires. And as I was already acting like farther anderson thought it would be a change.

Was thinking using the positive energy plane to make it feel more like the undying from eberon if possible.

[Temotei]

Solar vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8586032&postcount=1)?

Just an idea.

[Yitzi]

Basically, it all depends whether Pelor is ok with the plan. (And as the DM, that's your decision).

If Pelor is ok with the plan, then you can houserule that he keeps his class features as a result*; if not, then he'd better find a new sponsor (which will still not help with RSoP, and maybe not some of the other prestige classes).

As for feeding...he'll just have to make sure to keep going after bad guys so he can feed from them.

*After all, there's no reason that a good deity can't grant spells to an undead cleric; it just usually isn't done.

[dantiesilva]

Well Pelor makes undead Go boom. especially my guy XD. And abominations and anything he dose not find holy

Like the Solar vampire alot alan?

[OzymandiasX]

I find it hard to justify a faithful RSoP wanting to become an undead for anything other than non-munchkin reasons.

But what I find most funny will be the look on his face the first time he uses his Greater Turning and realizes that he gets hit first every time. lol

[137beth]

I find it hard to justify a faithful RSoP wanting to become an undead for anything other than non-munchkin reasons.

But what I find most funny will be the look on his face the first time he uses his Greater Turning and realizes that he gets hit first every time. lol

Well the player in question did give you his non-munchkin reason:smallsigh:

I was going to say "You are the DM, it's really easy to house rule." Then I saw the Solar Vampire, so now, that is my recommendation. Hurray Temotei!

[dantiesilva]

Well saying I have 3 turning sources and all my turns get pushed into DMM and Divine might there is no problem with the turning himself as at the end of the day he can not, there simply ain't enough turns left. Also frees up feat space for me as I began the game optimizing turning for one part in the adventure and that small little piece was over before it even began how powerful his turning was (Probably why we are facing Abberations instead of undead XD).

But the RSoP in question knows that Pelor can only help him so much and in the end it is up to his servents to find there own strength to defeat the evils of the world. After all there are quite a few questionable Prcs for good divine casters

Shadowbane Inquisitor
Shadowbane Stalker
Grey Guard
Shadow spy
Shadow striker

[LordErebus12]

Id make a variant that is simply immune to the light weakness and type is outsider, without any other added features. Treat yourself as a purified undead, something like Pelor taking you into his flock, even though you turned. He alters you so you're no longer dead.

[Deaxsa]

Greetings! I'm running a fairly high level campaign where the human cleric of pelor has, after fighting countless terrible abominations, decided that he would better serve pelor by being one himself, risking his position in the extablished churches of the world.

This is his build, using DMM Persist and focused heavily on combat:

Clr 3/Contemplative 2/Church Inq.4/RSoP5

The man is very pious and faith driven, but he has seen horrors in the world and has battled such horrors.

After meeting incarnations of the Positive and Negative energy Planes- sentient artifacts, he wishes to undergo the transformation to a vampire.

This vampire would be shunned by the church, but he would still like to retain Pelor's blessings (class features, such as spells).

Is this possible? If it is, there is the whole feeding issue. Attempting to retain his good alignment while not feeding off sentient life and traveling with a very much alive party would bring about problems if he consciously denies said feeding.

I was asking if anyone would be so kind to create a mechanic for thsi instance. Both the feeding issue and how he would be able to cast spells from the god of light and sun as a vampire.

Thank you very much.

wait, what possible reason does he have to want to become a vampire? you just said "he wishes", not why "he wishes." honestly, i'd make him suffer huge consequences for becoming that thing which he is supposed to kill. (in other words, tell him he can try whatever he wants, just tell him to be careful, and then have Pelor turn his back on your PC for obvious reasons. he can start worshipping some other deity for his spells, but he'll lose a bunch of class abilities and stuff)

in other words, if i were DM, i'd let the player do it to himself, and when he tries to ask for blessings, i'd say "heck no, mr. undead man"

edit: reasoning aside, solar vampire may be your best bet.

[dantiesilva]

I take it you have not watched Helsing Deaxsa. Sending monsters to kill monsters, nor have you read about the shadowspys or shadow strikers. As they are both elite groups of followers of Pelor that are his dirty little secret that do the dirty work no matter the cost. dose not matter who they are or what they are as long as they are destroying the enemies of Pelor (Shadowspys) and Heirnous (Shadowstalkers) Pelor is ok with it all.

Why I would want to become a vampire ish creature. If you are undead you are no longer able to be detected by other undead. You would have the strength to kill off all the other monsters in the world. No level drain, harder to kill. Lots of reasons. There is even a book that has good undead creatures in it, forgot one at the time. I want it to be more like the undiying from eberron who are protectors of there people and such.

[Pyromancer999]

Why I would want to become a vampire ish creature. If you are undead you are no longer able to be detected by other undead. You would have the strength to kill off all the other monsters in the world. No level drain, harder to kill. Lots of reasons. There is even a book that has good undead creatures in it, forgot one at the time. I want it to be more like the undiying from eberron who are protectors of there people and such.

There are no sourcebooks with good-aligned undead, to my knowledge, at least. Pretty much all undead are evil, even those with templates, as soon as those are applied, regardless of the creature's original alignment. The only book with something close is the Book of Exalted Deeds, which has the Deathless type, which is similar to the Undead type, except it heals with positive energy and is harmed by negative energy. So, no immunity to negative energy, which by extension does not grant immunity to level drain. Also no templates for it, so no stat boosts. There is a PrC in the book that lets you come back with the Deathless type, but first you must die in the line of duty for your god.

As such, there is no way you can become a normal vampire without becoming evil. I would recommend you negotiate a Deathless version of the vampire template with your DM, or go with the Solar Vampire template and change its type to Deathless.

[TuggyNE]

There are no sourcebooks with good-aligned undead, to my knowledge, at least.

Besides archliches, baelnorns, Good-aligned ghosts and mummies, and a couple others, you mean?

Vampires, of course, are seldom if ever anything but evil, so that does need significant tweaking.

[dantiesilva]

And thats why my DM and myself came here asking for your help and if it could work. And if it could for a template to be made for it.

[Pyromancer999]

Besides archliches, baelnorns, Good-aligned ghosts and mummies, and a couple others, you mean?

I was talking about in a non-campaign specific setting, but yes, ghosts are not necessarily evil, and if you are using the mummy template in Savage Species, the creature is not necessarily evil, although the default monster is.


Vampires, of course, are seldom if ever anything but evil, so that does need significant tweaking.

You could just take the Vampire or Solar Vampire template and change the type from Undead to Deathless, if that is what you want. You could also just apply the Sanctified template from the Book of Exalted Deeds to make the Vampire good, as usual. However, if you're going to insist on the Undead type, while not using those options(as these are not hard options to find), based off of a book I've been reading, here is a template for a church-sanctioned vampire:

The Church of Blood: the Sanguinist

The undead are a terrible menace. Try as they might, many clerics and paladins of good deities have tried to staunch the menace, and it keeps growing, no matter how many powerful champions arise. Even some of these brave champions are turned into one of the worst and most common kinds of undead: The Vampire. However, for a particularly powerful champion against the undead, options exist.

Charl Peglory was once an avid opponent of the undead, a cleric of Pelor, until one night he fell to a vampire ambush. Upon awakening, he went on a blood-feeding spree that wiped out a small village. When he finally came to his senses, he prepared a last prayer to Pelor, just before he would end himself to prevent any more bloodshed. However, during the prayer, Pelor appeared to him, saying that his duty to destroy undead would not end with his life. He taught him a special ritual to change his nature somewhat, as well as a way to satisfy his blood hunger without harming innocents, allowing him to continue his crusade against evil, transforming him into a vampire that fed on vampires.

Creating a Sanguinist
The Sanguinist template may only be applied to characters with levels in the Cleric or Paladin classes that are of Good alignment, and have fallen to the blood drain ability of a vampire, that are of the Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid type, henceforth referred to as the base creature. This removes the Vampire template from any creature with the Vampire template.

Type: Changes to Undead(Augmented Humanoid or Augmented Monstrous Humanoid)

HD: All current and future Hit Dice change to d12s.

Speeds: Same as base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, they are not hampered in water(see below). A Sanguinist does not suffer from reduced speed and armor check penalties when in medium or light armor, and does not have a maximum Dexterity bonus when in light armor.

Armor Class: The Sanguinist's Natural Armor Bonus increases by 6.

Attacks: The Sanguinist retains all of the base attacks of the base creature, and gains a slam attack for a creature of its size if it did not already have one.

Special Attacks: A Sanguinist retains all of the special attacks of the base creature, and gains the following special attacks:

Unlife Sapping(Su): A Sanguinist may sap the unlife from an Undead foe with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains the negative energy straight out of the target, dealing 1d4 points of Charisma drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the Sanguinist gains 5 temporary hit points. This ability bypasses the immunity to ability drain that undead have.

Special Qualities: A Sanguinist retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.

Alternate Form (Su): A Sanguinist can assume the shape of a hawk, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. While in its alternate form, the vampire loses its natural slam attack, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. It can remain in that form until it assumes another. A Sanguinist may transform into Celestial versions of their animal forms granted by this ability when in sight of evil undead.(If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.)

Damage Reduction (Su): A Sanguinist has damage reduction 5/silver and magic. A Sanguinist's natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, and ignore up to 10 points of damage reduction that evil undead have.

Fast Healing (Ex): A Sanguinist heals 4 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach a temple or shrine to its deity within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed, its speed being doubled when under this condition, and automatically knowing where the nearest shrine or temple nearby is. (It can travel up to 18 miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a Sanguinist forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in a shrine or temple, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 4 hit points per round.

Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a Sanguinist can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

Resistances (Ex): A Sanguinist has resistance to cold 10, fire 10, and electricity 10.

Spider Climb (Ex): A Sanguinist can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.

Turn Immunity and Rebuke Resistance (Ex): A Sanguinist is immune to turning, and any person who tries to rebuke the Sanguinist as per Rebuke Undead has a -4 penalty to their rebuking check.

Final Deathbringer(Ex): A Sanguinist's natural attacks are treated as Bane(Undead) weapons.

Light of Good(Su):A Sanguinist has not been forsaken by the light. Sanguinists heal half the damage they would take from positive energy instead of being harmed by it.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +6, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +4. As an undead creature, a Sanguinist has no Constitution score.

Skills: Sanguinists have a +4 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Knowledge(Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks, which changes to +8 when concerning the undead. Otherwise same as the base creature.

Feats: Sanguinists gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes, assuming the base creature meets the prerequisites and doesn’t already have these feats.

CR: +3

LA: +4(DMs with undead-heavy campaigns may want to consider increasing the LA of this template to +5, as it offers multiple bonuses that are particularly targeted towards taking down undead).

Weaknesses
Despite being imbued with divine energy, Sanguinists are not free of some of the weaknesses vampires have.

(Un)Holy Symbols: A Sanguinist within 15 ft of a symbol representing an evil deity suffers a -2 penalty to all rolls.

Running Water: A Sanguinist's swim speed is reduced by half when in running water, and takes damage equal to 1/10th of its total hit points when completely immersed in it.

Sunlight: Sanguinists can withstand exposure to sunlight, but may only take a single action each turn when underneath it. Exposure to sunlight in this case is when a Sanguinist is exposed to enough sunlight to cover an area roughly the size of its face. A Sanguinist can withstand sunlight for 1 minute with no penalties, but beyond that, may only withstand the sun for 1 minute per HD each day, immediately withering away and dying after that, as per the Disintegrate spell.

Blood of the Deity: A Sanguinist's desire for blood is a thing that will not go away. However, deities of good have rituals to accomodate that. By performing a special ritual, a cleric of the Sanguinist's deity, including the Sanguinist itself, may perform a ritual costing 5 gp to transform a gallon of holy water into a blood substitute. A sanguinist must consume one gallon of this blood substitute per day, and is treated as a living creature for the purposes of starvation, with the one gallon of blood substitute meeting the Sanguinist's daily food needs, with the Sanguinist being treated as having been three days without food for every two days since their last partaking of this blood substitute.

Hope this works for you.

[dantiesilva]

Everything but the +6 LA works for me. After all WotC said that the only reason the vampire had such a high LA was because it could create minions, this one can not.

Say LA+3-4

[TuggyNE]

The Church of Blood: the Sanguinist

Pretty sweet! Coupla suggestions/tweaks follow.


Speeds: Same as base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, they are not hampered in water(see below). A Sanguinist does not suffer from reduced speed and armor check penalties when in medium or light armor, and does not have a maximum Dexterity bonus when in light armor.

Interesting! Why the change?


Unlife Sapping(Su): A Sanguinist may sap the unlife from an Undead foe with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains the negative energy straight out of the target, dealing 1d4 points of Charisma drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the Sanguinist gains 5 temporary hit points.

While I really like the Cha targeting, it needs to be Cha damage, or else specifically bypass undead immunity to ability drain.


Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 5/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, and ignore up to 10 points of damage reduction that evil undead have. […] Once at rest in a shrine or temple, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 4 hit points per round.

Copy/paste errors with vampire instead of Sanguinist.


Resistances (Ex): A Sanguinist has resistance to cold 10, fire 10, and electricity 10.

This is a little odd, but I guess it's in the Vampire template more or less, so….


Light of Good(Su):A Sanguinist has not been forsaken by the light. Sanguinists heal half the damage they would take from positive energy instead of being harmed by it.

And they heal with negative energy too, right?


Running Water: A Sanguinist's swim speed is reduced by half when in running water, and takes damage equal to 1/10th of its total hit points when completely immersed in it.

This is a little confusing; I think you mean that a Sanguinist swims at half the speed the base creature would in running water, unless it has a swim speed. It might be best to repeat the rules from the Swim skill with suitable adjustments and reiterate that having a swim speed removes these penalties.

Otherwise, great, looks like this thread is basically answered. :smallsmile:

[Yitzi]

While I really like the Cha targeting, it needs to be Cha damage, or else specifically bypass undead immunity to ability drain.

Personally, I would read the current version as specifically bypassing that immunity; since it only works against undead, the statement that it works at all means that it bypasses the immunity.

[TuggyNE]

Personally, I would read the current version as specifically bypassing that immunity; since it only works against undead, the statement that it works at all means that it bypasses the immunity.

I suppose, I just feel like going belt and suspenders on it to make sure.

[Pyromancer999]

Interesting! Why the change?

As mentioned in the beginning of the post, this is based off of a book I'm currently reading. In the book, Sanguinists are hard-wired for war against vampire, and show many instances of being able to move around comfortably in protective gear, with light protective gear not hampering them at all. Also helps differentiate it from a vampire a little bit.


While I really like the Cha targeting, it needs to be Cha damage, or else specifically bypass undead immunity to ability drain.

Added a bit about it bypassing ability drain.


Copy/paste errors with vampire instead of Sanguinist.

Thanks for pointing this out. Fixed.


This is a little odd, but I guess it's in the Vampire template more or less, so….

It is odd, but the point is to retain a lot of vampire special qualities, as these are still vampires, if modified.


And they heal with negative energy too, right?

Correct.


This is a little confusing; I think you mean that a Sanguinist swims at half the speed the base creature would in running water, unless it has a swim speed. It might be best to repeat the rules from the Swim skill with suitable adjustments and reiterate that having a swim speed removes these penalties.

It does swim at half speed, unless it has a swim speed, but also like a normal vampire, it does take a large amount of damage from being submerged in running water.


Everything but the +6 LA works for me. After all WotC said that the only reason the vampire had such a high LA was because it could create minions, this one can not.

Granted, while this modified version of the vampire is stripped of the special attacks of the vampire template, it does have some abilities that make up for it, especially when targeting undead, and also have very reduced versions of some vampire weaknesses(such as being able to be around garlic and holy symbols, being able to not instantly die in the sun or near-instantly die in running water), while completely lacking in others, which does give it something of a power boost.



Say LA+3-4

While it could be reduced, this is definitely not an LA +3 template, and not exactly quite an LA+4 template. I will reduce it to +4, with a note that DMs with undead-heavy campaigns should consider raising it to LA +5.

[dantiesilva]

@Pyromancer999

Fair enough