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Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-07, 05:36 AM
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Generic Class Expanded

This was inspired by the Generic Classes from Unearthed Arcana.

The general goal's and objectives of this class is to:

1. Try to create more of a balance between Martial and non-Martial characters (I acknowledge there will be no perfect fix to this, but the closer the better).
2. Give players maximum ability and flexibility to make their concept of a character and not be restricted by certain roles or packages of features and abilities.

Also please note it is designed mostly to be used in the following situations.

1. Where it is the only class people may play as
2. For mostly non-optimizing groups who prefer not go beyond the DMG, PHB and MM.

With that said... Here is the Generic Class Expanded.

Please feel free to give any advice on what I can do to balance the class out more and be aware this class is altered and updated often.





Hit Die: d10
Base Save Bonuses: Two good saves and one low save
Class Skills: All skills are class skills
Skill Points at 1st Level: (8 + Int Modifier)x 4
Skill Points: 8 + Int Modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: All simple, martial and exotic weapons, light, medium and heavy armor with all shields (Including tower shields)
Starting Gold: 6d4 x 10 (150 gold)
Starting Age: Equal to Bard, Fighter, Paladin and Ranger

{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Good Saves | Poor Save | Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|3 Bonus feats, 2 Given Feats, 2 Background Feats
2nd|+2|+3|+0|Bonus feat, AC Bonus
3rd|+3|+3|+1|Bonus feat, Bonus Power
4th|+4|+4|+1|Bonus feat, Bonus Ability
5th|+5|+4|+1|Bonus feat
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|Bonus feat, Bonus Power
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|Bonus feat
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|Bonus feat, Bonus Ability
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|Bonus feat, Bonus Power
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|Bonus feat
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|Bonus feat
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|Bonus feat, Bonus Power, Bonus Ability
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|Bonus feat
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|Bonus feat, Bonus Power
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|Bonus feat, Bonus Ability
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|Bonus feat
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|Bonus feat, Bonus Power
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|Bonus feat
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|2 Bonus feats, Bonus Power, Bonus Ability[/table]


Ability Scores

Not required but it is suggested that you play with class with each of the players starting having the following ability scores.
18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10.


Bonus Feats


You also gain three other bonus feats at level 1. Each other level up grants one additional bonus feat (With Level 20 giving 2). When you do you may pick from any feat you meet the prerequisites for. Your class level here also counts as any class level for the requirements of class only feats and class features.

You may also select the following class features or feats in place of a bonus feat (Not traditional bonus feats gained from levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 (and on-wards if you reach epic levels).

Under spell casting you may also find a way to trade away HD for more bonus feats.

Class Features

AC Bonus (Sword Sage): Gain Wisdom modifier to AC while in light armor or unarmoured. But you gain no additional AC bonus like the monk does.
Note: Doesn't stack with AC Bonus (Monk).

AC Bonus (Monk): As a monk.
Note: Doesn't stack with AC Bonus (Sword Sage).

Animal Companion, Minor: As the Ranger ability but unlocked at level 1.

Animal Companion, Major: As the Druid ability. Prerequisite: Minor animal companion.

Arcane Channeling: As the Duskblade ability. Prerequisite: Level 3.

Arcane Channeling, Full Attack: As the Duskblade ability. Prerequisite: Level 13.

Aura of Courage: As the Paladin. Prerequisite: Level 3.

Aura of Debilitating : As the Paladin of Slaughter. Prerequisite: Level 3.

Aura of Despair: As the Paladin of Tyranny. Prerequisite: Level 3.

Aura of Resolve: As the Paladin of Freedom. Prerequisite: Level 3.

Awesome Grace: As Paladins divine grace. Prerequisite: Level 2.

Camouflage: As the Ranger ability. Prerequisite: Level 13.

Deadly Touch: As the Paladin of Tyranny or Slaughter. Prerequisite: Level 2.

Evasion: As the monk ability. Prerequisite: Base Reflex Save +3.

Familiar: Like a sorcerer. Prerequisite: Novice Spell Caster

Fast Movement: As the Barbarian.

Flurry of Blows: As monk ability including level 5 and 9 bonuses. Prerequisite: Unarmed Strike

Greater Flurry: As monk ability. Prerequisite: Flurry of blows, Level 11.

Hide in Plain Sight: As the ranger ability. Prerequisite: Level 17, Camouflage.

Improved Evasion: As the monk ability. Prerequisite: Base Reflex Save +7, evasion.

Improved Mettle: As Improved Evasion but for Fortitude and Will Saves. Prerequisite: Base Fortitude or Will Save +7, mettle.

Inspire Courage: As the bard ability, except it only grants a +1 bonus, once per day per character level. It is done through thought and focus too instead of music. Prerequisite: Concentration: 4 ranks.

Inspire Courage, Improved: Your inspire courage ability grants a +2 bonus. Prerequisites: Concentration 11 ranks, inspire courage.

Inspire Courage, Greater: Your inspire courage ability grants a +3 bonus. Prerequisites: Concentration 18 ranks, inspire courage, improved inspire courage.

Insightful Strike: Add your wisdom modifier to weapon damage rolls.
Prerequisites: Level 4

Inspire Competence: As the bard ability. Expends one use of inspire courage. Prerequisites: Perform 4 ranks, inspire courage.

Inspire Heroics: As the bard ability. Expends one use of inspire courage. Prerequisites: Concentration 18 ranks, inspire courage, improved inspire courage.

Lay on hands: As the Paladin ability. Prerequisite: Level 2.

Mettle: As Evasion, but for Fortitude and Will Saves. Prerequisite: Base Will or Fortitude Save +3.

Perfect Saves: Make your low saving throw a high one

Pounce: Gain the Pounce ability

Rage: As the barbarian ability. But you are no longer fatigued from rage at level 12 rather than level 17. Cannot be taken with Whirling Frenzy.

Rage, Greater: Increases rage's bonuses to Strength & Constitution +6, Will +3. Prerequisite: Level 11, Rage. Cannot be taken with Whirling Frenzy.

Rage, Mighty: Increases rage's bonuses to Strength & Constitution +8, Will +4. Prerequisite: Level 20, Greater Rage. Cannot be taken with Whirling Frenzy.

Signature Weapon: As a Kensai. However, the class level needed to enchant the weapon is +5.
Example: Under Kensai you need to be class level 1 to enhance to a +1 weapon. With the Generic Class you need to be class level 6. Prerequisite: Level 6, Weapon Focus (any weapon)

Smite (Opposite Alignment - Chaos/Law): As the Paladin but against your opposite alignment. True Neutral picks between Chaotic or Lawful.

Smite (Opposite Alignment - Good/Evil): As the Paladin but against your opposite alignment. True Neutral picks between Good or Evil.

Sneak Attack: As the rogue ability, but +2d6 on damage rolls.

Sneak Attack, Improved: Add +3d6 to your sneak attack damage. Prerequisite: Level 8, Sneak Attack.

Sneak Attack, Greater: Add +4d6 to your sneak attack damage. Prerequisite: Level 15, Improved Sneak Attack.

Story Teller: As the bardic knowledge ability.

Swift Tracker: As the ranger ability. Prerequisite: Level 8, Track.

Trap Finding/Sense: Combines the rogues class features trap sense and trap finding.

Turn/Rebuke Undead: As the Cleric.

Unarmored Speed Bonus: As the monk.

Unarmed Strike: As monk ability. Once level 4 they are treated as magic weapons in terms of penetrating DR. Gives "Improved Unarmed Combat" as a free bonus feat.

Uncanny Dodge: Combines the barbarian class features uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.

Whirling Frenzy: As the barbarian UA variant ability. But you are no longer fatigued from rage at level 12 rather than level 17. Cannot be taken with Rage.

Whirling Frenzy, Greater: Increases Whirling Frenzy's bonuses to Strength +6, Dodge AC +3 & Will +3. Prerequisite: Level 11, Whirling Frenzy. Cannot be taken with Rage.

Whirling Frenzy, Mighty: Increases Whirling Frenzy's bonuses to Strength +8, Dodge AC +4 & Will +4. Prerequisite: Level 20, Greater Whirling Frenzy. Cannot be taken with Rage.

Wild Shape: As the Druid, Use once a day at Level 5. Gain an additional daily use at Level 6, 7, 10 and 14. Prerequisite: Level 5.

Wild Shape, Large: As the Druid. Prerequisite: Level 8, Wild Shape.

Wild Shape, Tiny: As the Druid. Prerequisite: Level 11, Wild Shape.

Wild Shape, Plant: As the Druid. Prerequisite: Level 12, Wild Shape.

Wild Shape, Huge: As the Druid. Prerequisite: Level 15, Wild Shape, Wild Shape Large.


Home-brewed Feats

Armour Expertise (Light): Ignore the arcane spell failure chance and speed limitation of light armour.

Armour Expertise (Medium): Ignore the arcane spell failure chance and speed limitation of medium armour. Prerequisite: Armour Expertise (Light)

Armour Expertise (Heavy): Ignore the arcane spell failure chance and speed limitation of heavy armour. Prerequisite: Armour Expertise (Medium)

Conditioning: +2 bonus to all saving throws.

Distracting Grace: Add your Charisma modifier to your AC.

Dueling: Gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls, AC and damage when wielding a one handed weapon in both hands and/or a one handed weapon in one hand with nothing in the other hand. Note: If you are using your fist/unarmed strikes as an off-hand attack the bonus from Dueling doesn't apply.

Lightning Speed: Add your charisma modifier to Initiative checks.

Luck of Heroes: +1 luck bonus to all saving throws, +1 luck bonus to AC.

Rational Negotiation: Use your Intelligence Modifier instead for Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive checks.

Strategic Planning: Add your Intelligence modifier to Initiative


Noteworthy Feats

Exotic Armor Proficiency: Proficient in all exotic armor whose weight type you are also proficient in.

Zen Archery: Use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier to determine attack rolls with ranged attacks.


Altered Existing Feats/Abilities

Battle Clarity: Add Intelligence modifier to Reflex saves

Improved Toughness: +3 HP at Level 1 and +1 HP per HD.

Knowledge Devotion: Upon selecting this feat, you immediately add one Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills. Thereafter, you treat that skill as a class skill, regardless of which class you are advancing in. Whenever you fight a creature, you can make a Knowledge check based on its type, as described on page 78 of the Player's Handbook, provided that you have at least one rank in the appropriate Knowledge skill.

You then receive an insight bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against that creature type for the remainder of the combat. The amount of the bonus depends on your Knowledge check result, as given on the following table.
{table=head]Check Result|Bonus Granted
15 or below |+1
1620|+2
2125|+3
2630|+4
31 or higher |+5[/table]
You can make only one Knowledge check per creature type per combat. If you fight creatures of multiple types during the same combat, you can make one Knowledge check per type, thereby possibly gaining different bonuses against different opponents.
Prerequisite: Knowledge (any) 4 ranks.

Shadow Blade: Use your Dexterity modifier to determine damage with melee weapons rather than your Strength modifier. No longer requires you to be in a Stance in order to be used. Still works as a substitute for weapon finesse for meeting other requirements.

Two Weapon Fighting (All of them): They no longer have a Dexterity Requirement.

Weapon Finesse: Use the higher of your DEX or STR modifier for the attack roll with all melee weapons.

Weapon Focus/Specialization: Now combined into one feat. At level 1 you make take Weapon Focus for +1 to attack rolls and +2 to damage rolls. At level 8 you may take it again for the same benefit.

Also, they now function under the "Weapon Groups" rules from Unearthed Arcana rather than being for one specific weapon. There are no Fighter Level requirements.


Ability Score Conversion from this class (X to Y)
Ability Score|Bonus|Source
Dexterity|Melee weapon attack roll|Weapon Finesse (Feat)
Dexterity|Melee weapon damage roll|Shadow Blade (Feat)
Intelligence|Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate & Sense Motive|Rational Negotiation (Feat)
Intelligence|Reflex|Battle Clarity (Feat)
Intelligence|Initiative|Strategic Planning (Feat)
Wisdom|AC|AC Bonus (Class Feature)
Wisdom|Ranged Attack roll|Zen Archery (Feat)
Wisdom|Weapon Damage|Insightful Strike (Class Feature)
Charisma|AC|Distracting Grace (Feat)
Charisma|Initiative|Lightning Speed (Class Feature)
Charisma|Saving Throws|Awesome Grace (Class Feature)



Given Feats
At level 1 you automatically gain the following 2 feats:


Point Blank Shot: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

Eschew Materials: You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. (The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.) If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component at hand to cast the spell, just as normal.


Background Feats
You also may pick 1 Birth Feat and 1 Background Feat during character creation. You may not invest any other feats into getting these at any time. If you would rather not take a Birth and Background feat you may trade them both in for one extra bonus feat at character creation.

Birth Feats

Poor Birth: +2 on Gather Information and Knowledge (Local) checks, +1 to all saving throws. -125gp at character creation.

Common Birth: 4 skill points into any one craft, or profession skill of your choice. +4 skill points to invest into any other skill of your choice (This doesn't give additional skill points at future levels). Free Skill Focus feat to invest into a skill of your choice.

Noble Birth: +450gp at character creation, +2 to Leadership score if you take the Leadership feat.


Career/Living Feats

Craftsman: +2 on craft checks, 25% discount on purchasing raw materials to craft.

Criminal: +2 Intimidation, Sense Motive, Bluff and Gather Information. +100gp at character creation. At each new town roll your Knowledge (Local) skill as if you had Bardic Knowledge. But treat successes instead as knowledge about criminal presence in the town.

Mercantile Background: When you sell weapons, magic items, or other adventuring goods, you get 75% of the list price instead of 50%. Once per month, you can buy any single item at 75% of the offered price. You also receive an extra 300gp to spend as you see fit during character creation.

Other Career/Living: 4 skill points into any one craft or profession skill of your choice. Each time you level up put another point into this skill. You gain +2 Diplomacy and a 50% discount when dealing with people from your craft or profession. If taken with Common Birth, replace the 4 skill points to craft or profession from Common Birth with free skill focus into the profession or craft skill taken with this feat.

Relaxed Noble: +2 Diplomacy & Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty). When you enter a new town roll Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), treat the results as knowledge about Noble and Royal names, influence and secrets in the town. +600gp at character creation. Prerequisite: Noble Birth

Servant of the Church: 4 skill points into Knowledge (Religion), each level up put another skill point into the the skill. Get a free Holy Symbol at character creation & Turn/Rebuke Undead class ability as a cleric.

University Background: Skill Points per level is 10+Int Mod rather than 8+Int Mod. -100gp at character creation.



Bonus Powers


At Level 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 and 20 you may choose to gain a bonus power listed below. Each power below may only be taken once.


Bonus Feat (Works the same as other Bonus Feats granted by this class)
+1 to two ability scores (Can be taken twice)
+2 to one ability score (Can be taken twice, but for separate ability scores)
Gain a Spell Resistance of 10 + Class Level
Gain a Damage Reduction equal to Class Level * 0.75
Gain Light Fortification:
When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a 25% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Gain Moderate Fortification:
When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a 75% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Prerequisites: Light Fortification
Gain Heavy Fortification:
When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a 100% chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.
Prerequisites: Moderate Fortification
+2 Natural AC (Stacks with other Natural Armor sources)
+2 to all damage rolls & +1 to all attack rolls
Pick an element from a spell you can cast that deals damage, you may covert any damage you do to that damage type instead as a free action.
Prerequisites: Novice Spell Caster
Spell craft Meta-magic
May take this 4 times, each time let's you go one meta-magic level/modifier higher. Prerequisites: Novice Spell Caster

With this class you may apply meta-magic feat to spells for free without increasing the spell level being consumed.
You do so by taking the spell level of the spell being cast and the level modifier applies from Meta-magic feats and add the DC's together.

Then when casting the spell you roll your spell craft skill. If you pass the check you are able to cast the spell with the meta-magic feats without a spell level increase successfully. If you fail, you must exhaust a spell level as if the meta-magic level alterations were applied. If you are unable to cast spells of that level and/or exhausted all your uses of that spell level than you exhaust the spell slot originally being used and the spell fails to be cast.

{table=header]Spell Level|Spellcraft DC
0|5
1st|8
2nd|11
3rd|14
4th|17
5th|20[/table]

{table=header]Metamagic Modifier|0 level spells|1st level spells|2nd level spells|3rd level spells|4th level spells|5th level spells
+1 Metamagic|+1 DC|+2 DC|+3 DC|+4 DC|+5 DC|+6 DC
+2 Metamagic|+2 DC|+4 DC|+6 DC|+8 DC|+10 DC|+12 DC
+3 Metamagic|+3 DC|+6 DC|+9 DC|+12 DC|+15 DC|+18 DC
+4 Metamagic|+4 DC|+8 DC|+12 DC|+16 DC|+20 DC|+24 DC[/table]



Bonus Abilities


You may pick an ability score to give +1 towards, this cannot be the same ability score you invest in from the ability score point usually granted to characters at this level.

At Level 20 you give a +2 bonus to an ability score of your choice and +1 bonus the ability score you invested the typical point from character leveling into.

Example: At Level 4 Katie uses her usually +1 into Intelligence. She cannot now put her point from Bonus Ability into Intelligence so she invests it into Constitution. This results in +1 Intelligence & +1 Constitution.

Example 2: At Level 20 Katie takes the +2 from Bonus Ability and puts it into Intelligence. She then takes her typical +1 from reaching Level 20 and put`s it into Constitution, this automatically makes her invest her other +1 into Constitution resulting in a total +2 to Constitution (1 + 1 = 2). This results in +2 Intelligence & +2 Constitution.


Spell casting

You may also spend Bonus Feats on the ability to cast spells by either increasing the maximum spell level you can cast, increasing the number of known spells or how many spells you may cast per day.


Spell Casting Variants
More Bonus Feats for Spellcasting

At character creation you may reduce your HD by 1 die size (Ex: d10 -> d8). For each time you do this you gain an additional Bonus Feat at level 1 to invest into any of the spell casting abilities in this spoiler page and/or familiar related abilities.

Prepared Caster Variant

Instead of casting spells spontaneously you may choose to simply prepare spells each day like a Wizard without the need for the spell book.

If this variant is taken you may learn 2 additional spells at each level up for any spell level that you know and can cast.

Item Caster Variant

If you take this variant, you gain the ability to gain new spells known by gaining them off of runes, other spell casters, spell books etc.

You require a book or holy symbol to cast spells from. If you are missing the item you may not cast spells anymore unless if you spend 100gp on getting a replacement. You do not gain the Eschew Materials feat at level 1 if you take this variant but may still use one of your bonus feats to obtain it.
Prerequisite: Prepared Caster Variant

Max Spell Level Known

Novice Spell Caster: Gain the ability to spontaneously cast and know 0 and 1st level spells as detailed below.

Apprentice Spell Caster: Gain the ability to spontaneously cast and know 2nd level spells as detailed below. Prerequisite: Novice Spell Caster, Level 3

Journeyman Spell Caster: Gain the ability to spontaneously cast and know 3rd level spells as detailed below. Prerequisite: Apprentice Spell Caster, Level 5.

Expert Spell Caster: Gain the ability to spontaneously cast and know 4th level spells as detailed below. Prerequisite: Journeyman Spell Caster, Level 7.

Master Spell Caster: Gain the ability to spontaneously cast and know 5th level spells as detailed below. Prerequisite: Expert Spell Caster, Level 9.

Spells Known

Spell Keeper
Your spells known is as displayed on the Low Table.
This is what you start off with when you gain the ability to cast spells.

Improved Spell Keeper
Your spells known is as displayed on the Medium Table.
Prerequisites: Spell Keeper

Greater Spell Keeper
Your spells known is as displayed on the High Table.
Prerequisites: Improved Spell Keeper

Low Table
{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|3|1|-|- |-|-
2nd|4 |2|-|-|-|-
3rd|4|2|1|-|-|-
4th|5|3|2|-|-|-
5th|5|3|2|1|-|-
6th|6|4|3|2|-|-
7th|6|4|3|2|1|-
8th|7|5|4|3|2|-
9th|7|5|4|3|2|1
10th|8|5|4|4|3|2
11th|8|5|4|4|3|2
12th|8|5|4|4|3|3
13th|8|5|4|4|3|3
14th|8|5|4|4|3|3
15th|8|5|4|4|3|3
16th|8|5|4|4|3|3
17th|8|5|4|4|3|3
18th|8|5|4|4|3|3
19th|8|5|4|4|3|3
20th|8|5|4|4|3|3[/table]


Medium Table
{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|4|2|-|- |-|-
2nd|5 |2|-|-|-|-
3rd|5|3|1|-|-|-
4th|6|3|2|-|-|-
5th|6|4|2|1|-|-
6th|7|4|3|2|-|-
7th|7|5|3|2|1|-
8th|8|5|4|3|2|-
9th|8|6|4|3|2|1
10th|9|6|5|4|3|2
11th|9|7|5|4|3|2
12th|9|7|6|5|4|3
13th|9|8|6|5|4|3
14th|9|8|7|6|5|4
15th|9|8|7|6|5|4
16th|9|8|7|6|5|5
17th|9|8|7|6|5|5
18th|9|8|7|6|5|5
19th|9|8|7|6|5|5
20th|9|8|7|6|5|5[/table]

High Table
{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|5|3|-|- |-|-
2nd|6 |4|-|-|-|-
3rd|6|4|1|-|-|-
4th|7|5|2|-|-|-
5th|7|5|2|1|-|-
6th|8|6|3|2|-|-
7th|8|6|3|2|1|-
8th|9|7|4|3|2|-
9th|9|7|4|3|2|1
10th|10|8|5|4|3|2
11th|11|8|6|4|4|2
12th|11|9|6|5|4|3
13th|12|9|7|5|5|3
14th|12|10|7|6|5|4
15th|12|10|8|6|6|4
16th|12|10|8|7|6|5
17th|12|10|9|7|7|5
18th|12|10|9|8|7|6
19th|12|10|10|8|8|7
20th|12|10|10|8|8|8[/table]


Spells Per Day

Spell Slinger
Your spells per day is as displayed on the Low Table.
This is what you start off with when you gain the ability to cast spells.

Improved Spell Slinger
Your spells per day is as displayed on the Medium Table.
Prerequisites: Spell Slinger

Greater Spell Slinger
Your spells per day is as displayed on the High Table.
Prerequisites: Improved Spell Slinger

Low Table
{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|2|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|3|0|-|-|-|-
3rd|3|1|-|-|-|-
4th|3|1|0|-|-|-
5th|3|2|1|-|-|-
6th|3|2|1|0|-|-
7th|3|3|2|1|-|-
8th|3|3|2|1|0|-
9th|3|3|3|2|1|-
10th|3|3|3|2|1|0
11th|3|3|3|3|2|1
12th|3|3|3|3|2|1
13th|3|3|3|3|3|2
14th|3|3|3|3|3|2
15th|3|3|3|3|3|3
16th|3|3|3|3|3|3
17th|3|3|3|3|3|3
18th|3|3|3|3|3|3
19th|3|3|3|3|3|3
20th|3|3|3|3|3|3[/table]

Medium Table
{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|3|1|-|-|-|-
2nd|4|2|-|-|-|-
3rd|4|2|1|-|-|-
4th|4|3|2|-|-|-
5th|4|3|2|1|-|-
6th|4|4|3|2|-|-
7th|4|4|3|2|1|-
8th|4|4|4|3|2|-
9th|4|4|4|3|2|1
10th|4|4|4|4|3|2
11th|4|4|4|4|3|2
12th|4|4|4|4|4|3
13th|4|4|4|4|4|3
14th|4|4|4|4|4|4
15th|4|4|4|4|4|4
16th|4|4|4|4|4|4
17th|4|4|4|4|4|4
18th|4|4|4|4|4|4
19th|4|4|4|4|4|4
20th|4|4|4|4|4|4[/table]

High Table
{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|5|3|-|-|-|-
2nd|6|4|-|-|-|-
3rd|6|5|3|-|-|-
4th|6|6|4|-|-|-
5th|6|6|5|4|-|-
6th|6|6|6|5|-|-
7th|6|6|6|6|3|-
8th|6|6|6|6|4|-
9th|6|6|6|6|5|3
10th|6|6|6|6|6|4
11th|6|6|6|6|6|5
12th|6|6|6|6|6|6
13th|6|6|6|6|6|6
14th|6|6|6|6|6|6
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table]

You are able to cast spells spontaneously like a Sorcerer can. You do not need to prepare your spells ahead of time, but you still require 8 hours of uninterrupted rest to regain your spells per day. You can make either Intelligence, Charisma or Wisdom your casting ability score, which is chosen when you first gain the ability to cast spells.

You may take spells from any class spell list provided in any source book. You currently suffer the full spell failure chance from any armor you wear while casting spells. You can ignore said failure chance however by taking the proper Armour Expertise feats.

Stances & Maneuvers

You may also spend Bonus Feats on the ability to use Stances and Maneuvers.



You may choose if how the recharge and function works like Crusader, Swordsage or Warblade.

Apprentice: Get Maneuvers and Stances as based off the Low Table.

Master: Get Maneuvers and Stances as based off the High Table.
Prerequisites: Apprentice

Low Table
{table=head]Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known
1st|5|3|1
2nd|5|4|2
3rd|6|5|2
4th|6|5|2
5th|7|5|2
6th|7|5|2
7th|8|5|2
8th|8|5|3
9th|9|5|3
10th|9|6|3
11th|10|6|3
12th|10|6|3
13th|11|6|3
14th|11|6|4
15th|12|6|4
16th|12|6|4
17th|13|6|4
18th|13|6|4
19th|14|6|4
20th|14|7|4
[/table]

High Table
{table=head]Maneuvers Known|Maneuvers Readied|Stances Known
1st|6|4|1
2nd|7|4|2
3rd|8|5|2
4th|9|5|2
5th|10|6|2
6th|11|6|3
7th|12|6|3
8th|13|7|3
9th|14|7|3
10th|15|8|4
11th|16|8|4
12th|17|8|4
13th|18|9|4
14th|19|9|5
15th|20|10|5
16th|21|10|5
17th|22|10|5
18th|23|11|5
19th|24|11|5
20th|25|12|6
[/table]



You may take maneuvers or stances from any of the groups, as long as you meet their prerequisites.


AC Bonus
You gain a bonus to AC equal to half your BAB rounded down.

Reasons behind some of the things

Base Attack Bonus: So everyone can be effective in melee combat and not completely hopeless. For weapon based characters it`s pretty much required anyways to be effective while for casters and skill users it`s not something to be used much anyways and even if so doesn`t given them anything game breaking.

HD: Character durability. Enough that they can handle themselves in the thick of things if they're smart about it. Low enough that sheer recklessness and stupidity can still get them killed.

Class Skills: Everyone's character is unique. Plus this class is designed for campaigns where it's the only class being used by players so to only make certain skills class skills would screw concepts over. I could go Generic route here and have them pick a number. But I don't want players to build up so many skill points to find out it has to be wasted on cross-class skills.

I don't think it should be game breaking anyway's, if anything it gives them more flavour.

Skill Points: Allows everyone to get their basics down like listen, spot, search. Pick a couple tactic/mechanic vital skills and them hopefully one or two for flavour sake.

Feats each level: So every level up feels like you're gaining something. Besides, assuming you went pure feats instead of special abilities it basically makes you an upgraded Fighter and Fighters aren't so good to begin with and could use a boost. If you do go after special abilities then it's not really an over flooding of feats any more due to the investment into the special abilities.

Spells Maxed at Level 5: To help control the amount of magic flying around. I find 5th level spells are still plenty powerful enough to do devastating effects as spell casters and make going into magic worth it and a powerful weapon. But not to the point that campaigns get destroyed from it and martial characters feel completely outmatched.

Plus, it put's a limit on how much meta magic abuse they can do which gives Martial characters more ability to catch up.
Example: Strongest spell will probably do around 15d6 damage. Pretty good damage. Martials probably lack the insane dice (unless if they go sneak attack) and instead go for flat number boosts like +X damage.

But the damage output is more comparable now and, criticals will allow martials to do similliar if not more damage than spell casters, while spell casters will still have other utilities with their spells as well so they aren't left cheated.

Bonus Spells Known: To help balance the fact for that spell casters now have a lower maximum spell level they may cast. Plus being able to access spells from more than one tree now, it gives more flexibility to branch into different spell lists.

Can pick from any spell list: It does help balance the fact the max spell level is now lower. But the main reason is I find the idea of magic more interesting if it's all magic that any magic user could possibly learn and use. This allows essentially spell casters who can mix and match spells to allow for both more flexibility and magic to be more a mystical power thing than something divided up into different things by different groups. Plus, with this being designed as a class that is to be the only class in a campaign it would be dickish to just outlaw spell trees.

LordErebus12
2013-06-07, 05:56 AM
hmm, not bad.

might wanna check my link in my sig about casting as a skill. it might give you an idea.

or not...

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-07, 06:08 AM
hmm, not bad.

might wanna check my link in my sig about casting as a skill. it might give you an idea.

or not...

Interesting.

Using the skill to help cast spells correctly would prove an interesting mix.
And adds some risk to spells so it becomes more of a gamble.

Though I feel like if I were to do this I should add a little extra to spells to balance it out.

I'm thinking... allow them to add meta-magic feats without increase the spells level? But instead the meta-magic feats create a higher spellcraft check so the more likely it is to fizzle out?

Though at the same time that has me a bit worried because someone could get a really good spellcraft combat and just meta-magic out the ass.

Edit: I should clarify though, I intend on keep them as special features you can purchase with some of the bonus feats. But making spell craft relate to spell casting itself would be a cool mix to it and give more reason to invest in the skill.

LordErebus12
2013-06-07, 06:23 AM
Interesting.

I'm thinking... allow them to add meta-magic feats without increase the spells level? But instead the meta-magic feats create a higher spellcraft check so the more likely it is to fizzle out?

Though at the same time that has me a bit worried because someone could get a really good spellcraft combat and just meta-magic out the ass.

Edit: I should clarify though, I intend on keep them as special features you can purchase with some of the bonus feats. But making spell craft relate to spell casting itself would be a cool mix to it and give more reason to invest in the skill.

realize i assigned the checks so that someone with the minimum possible spellcraft could possibly cast it, although not likely. Someone who truely attempts to mix-max spellcraft will find it entirely possible to high level spells, with minimum chance of failure.

as for the metamagic feats not raising the spell level, I think if you offered the choice between the two, you might find the best median somewhere.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-07, 06:26 AM
realize i assigned the checks so that someone with the minimum possible spellcraft could possibly cast it, although not likely. Someone who truely attempts to mix-max spellcraft will find it entirely possible to high level spells, with minimum chance of failure.

I'd probably alter it in this case where you need to have the spells unlocked through the special features/bonus feats in order to roll.

Plus I'd probably make the roll DC's higher.

LordErebus12
2013-06-07, 06:28 AM
Plus I'd probably make the roll DC's higher.

I refrained from this for the sole reason of not wishing for the only viable build to use for casting is that of a min-max character. Considering things like spell resistance already make it difficult to fight certain creatures, adding in another chance of failure doesn't go along way in keeping your casters happy.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-07, 06:36 AM
I refrained from this for the sole reason of not wishing for the only viable build to use for casting is that of a min-max character. Considering things like spell resistance already make it difficult to fight certain creatures, adding in another chance of failure doesn't go along way in keeping your casters happy.

True. Currently I have this as the tables.

Ok, I got it up to this...

{table=header]Spell Level|Spellcraft DC
0|12
1st|15
2nd|18
3rd|21
4th|24
5th|27[/table]

{table=header]Metamagic Modifier|0 level spells|1st level spells|2nd level spells|3rd level spells|4th level spells|5th level spells
+1 Metamagic|+1 DC|+2 DC|+3 DC|+4 DC|+5 DC|+6 DC
+2 Metamagic|+2 DC|+4 DC|+6 DC|+8 DC|+10 DC|+12 DC
+3 Metamagic|+3 DC|+6 DC|+9 DC|+12 DC|+15 DC|+18 DC
+4 Metamagic|+4 DC|+8 DC|+12 DC|+16 DC|+20 DC|+24 DC[/table]

Does this balanced? I'm trying to not make it too hard for people to cast when they unlock it without making the DC trivial for higher level characters.

Edit: Also, side question for anyone reading. I'm looking for ways that mental ability scores Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma could play more use for martial characters.

And maybe a way physical scores Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are more useful to casters. Though, if I had to pick one I'd rather have martial's benefit from mental as well. But advice for how to make such a thing work or either would be nice.

LordErebus12
2013-06-07, 03:06 PM
its interesting, but i think it needs to be playtested.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-08, 12:34 PM
I agree that it will need to be play tested.

I plan to do that eventually when a group can get started.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-11, 10:04 PM
*bumpity bump bump*

LordErebus12
2013-06-12, 02:51 AM
starting to look good.

can i say one thing?

I think you should add this as one of the chosen bonus feats at 1st level.

Deflective Defense (Ex): When not wearing heavy armor or using a tower shield, a character adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per two class levels to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. This is treated as a deflection bonus. If a character is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

that way AC can scale a bit with Hit Dice.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-17, 10:36 PM
starting to look good.

can i say one thing?

I think you should add this as one of the chosen bonus feats at 1st level.

Deflective Defense (Ex): When not wearing heavy armor or using a tower shield, a character adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per two class levels to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. This is treated as a deflection bonus. If a character is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

that way AC can scale a bit with Hit Dice.

Interesting idea, but there's also added feats that do stuff flat out like "Add Intelligence to AC". Players might then look at a feat like this and see no use in it for only proving half the bonus, under circumstances and limited by class level.

LordErebus12
2013-06-18, 03:49 AM
Interesting idea, but there's also added feats that do stuff flat out like "Add Intelligence to AC". Players might then look at a feat like this and see no use in it for only proving half the bonus, under circumstances and limited by class level.

it allows it to scale a bit. its based off of the Duelist's ability. There was precedence, i thought, to not make another class ability worthless. And it would be a free bonus feat of their choice between those free bonuses at first. just an idea.

Bonus Feats

At level 1 you automatically gain one the following feats:
Point Blank Shot
Eschew Materials
Deflective Defense


that way the melee types gain something good if they dont use materials or use ranged weapons.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-18, 03:41 PM
it allows it to scale a bit. its based off of the Duelist's ability. There was precedence, i thought, to not make another class ability worthless. And it would be a free bonus feat of their choice between those free bonuses at first. just an idea.

Bonus Feats

At level 1 you automatically gain one the following feats:
Point Blank Shot
Eschew Materials
Deflective Defense


that way the melee types gain something good if they dont use materials or use ranged weapons.

So as a minor class ability then?
I can see that working, though the two others feats were given to all characters for a certain reason.

Point Blank Shot: Normally just an annoying feat tax. Most ranged characters are beyond 30ft and this feat serves no purpose than to fill up a feat slot on an already feat intensive fighting style.

Eschew Materials: I always found magic more of personal powers and abilities than recipes in a book. Especially for sorcerer so I normally would house rule sorcerers get this for free for flavor reasons. With this class though, the entire magic system is design to function similar to a sorcerer, so I figured it would work here.

There is still the option for it be more religious themed (like Cleric) where the magic is from your god, but in that case you shouldn't really need the cheaper materials anyways if it's from your God. Plus this just get's rid of an annoying process of tracking materials and makes magic users still viable if in a situation where they would normally be separated from a spell pouch.

LordErebus12
2013-06-18, 03:56 PM
So as a minor class ability then?
I can see that working, though the two others feats were given to all characters for a certain reason.

Point Blank Shot: Normally just an annoying feat tax. Most ranged characters are beyond 30ft and this feat serves no purpose than to fill up a feat slot on an already feat intensive fighting style.

Eschew Materials: I always found magic more of personal powers and abilities than recipes in a book. Especially for sorcerer so I normally would house rule sorcerers get this for free for flavor reasons. With this class though, the entire magic system is design to function similar to a sorcerer, so I figured it would work here.

There is still the option for it be more religious themed (like Cleric) where the magic is from your god, but in that case you shouldn't really need the cheaper materials anyways if it's from your God. Plus this just get's rid of an annoying process of tracking materials and makes magic users still viable if in a situation where they would normally be separated from a spell pouch.

thats true, but what does a melee fighter type care? If its an ability that functions if they have a melee weapon, with no bow or rays or spells.

I've always believed that melee types are weaker overall compared to casters and AC doesn't really scale naturally with levels. figured it was worth the suggestion.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-18, 05:29 PM
thats true, but what does a melee fighter type care? If its an ability that functions if they have a melee weapon, with no bow or rays or spells.

I've always believed that melee types are weaker overall compared to casters and AC doesn't really scale naturally with levels. figured it was worth the suggestion.

I'm not arguing your point.
I'm just saying that there was a reason both of those feats were free for all characters.

Part of the goal of this class too is to try to break the concept of generalized classes, so people can be more than just the spell slinger or just the archer.

I'll probably add your suggestion, but you've also addressed a big issue I forgot about, AC doesn't scale with Attack. It would be nice if I could try to find more ways to remedy that as well, I doubt just adding INT mod to AC will be enough to stop it.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-21, 01:48 PM
bumpity bumpity bump bump bump!

Vadskye
2013-06-21, 04:14 PM
As long as there are four kinds of core magic items that improve AC (armor, shield, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor) and only one kind of core magic item that improves attack bonus (magic weapons), you will not be able to have AC scale with level/attack bonus, as you seem to be proposing.

inuyasha
2013-06-21, 04:50 PM
you forgot about bracers of armor, and dont bracers of archery increase attack?

Vadskye
2013-06-21, 08:00 PM
you forgot about bracers of armor, and dont bracers of archery increase attack?

Bracers of armor give an armor bonus, and thus would fall under "armor". As the name suggests.

I didn't forget the bracers of archery any more than I "forgot" the Ioun Stone that gives a +1 insight bonus to AC. Those are more expensive than the core items I mentioned, and don't have a normal +1 to +5 scaling. In other words, while they do exist, they are irrelevant to my broader point - that AC has vastly more scaling from magic items than attack bonus does.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-21, 08:27 PM
Yes, but AC does still tend to become irrelevant at later levels due to high BAB, feats that boost attack rolls, high ability scores and the magic weapon.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-06-28, 07:38 AM
bumpity bump

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-01, 11:35 AM
bumpity bump

LordErebus12
2013-11-02, 06:47 AM
Two things... Psionics and Skills...

Psionics, are you planning on producing a template for such things... Autohypnosis and psicraft are class skills, afterall.

Is martial lore included under skills? ToB?

Thunderfist12
2013-11-02, 12:04 PM
.....................

... processing...

.....................

... just... one...

...... class......?

That could be interesting. Seems very MMO, though, without the other classes to choose from. Which isn't a bad thing.

Now my comment: great stats, probably balanced very well (no clear idea on that, though), and a rather interesting class to take. Even if there were other classes available, I would take this one all the way for it's unique flavor as the anything class, adaptability at any level without multiclassing, and slightly higher balance point than other mundane classes.

Omnicrat
2013-11-03, 04:50 PM
Unless I misread something, it is impossible to be able to cast 5th level spells and be able to both know and cast spells.

Basically, if you get the ability to cast up to level 5 spells, you have to pick between knowing spells or casting spells. If you know spells you can't cast them and if you can cast spells you don't know them.

Seems like a pretty big problem.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-05, 11:25 PM
Two things... Psionics and Skills...

Psionics, are you planning on producing a template for such things... Autohypnosis and psicraft are class skills, afterall.

Is martial lore included under skills? ToB?

I will be working on adding both of those.

Just that this class was designed for a local d&d group I have where the majority don't like to delve into the complexity of those two. But for the sake of being complete I do plan on adding them in at some point anyways.

I'd likely add ToB first and then Psionics later on.

I would include Martial Lore under skills.


.....................

... processing...

.....................

... just... one...

...... class......?

That could be interesting. Seems very MMO, though, without the other classes to choose from. Which isn't a bad thing.

Now my comment: great stats, probably balanced very well (no clear idea on that, though), and a rather interesting class to take. Even if there were other classes available, I would take this one all the way for it's unique flavor as the anything class, adaptability at any level without multiclassing, and slightly higher balance point than other mundane classes.

Thanks for the kind words :)

The goal is so people can become the character they envision themselves being rather than be restricted by what a class set up allows them to do.


Unless I misread something, it is impossible to be able to cast 5th level spells and be able to both know and cast spells.

Basically, if you get the ability to cast up to level 5 spells, you have to pick between knowing spells or casting spells. If you know spells you can't cast them and if you can cast spells you don't know them.

Seems like a pretty big problem.

I'm not sure what part of the wording is giving that impression.

Basically, it's meant to be a balance.

You can know few spells but cast them rapidly, Know many but cast them less often, Best of both but have little elsewhere to improve on. Worse of both and still have much to throw around.

Legendxp
2013-11-06, 12:42 AM
Anybody else think that the guy in the middle looks like Gaston (http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Gaston_(Beauty_and_the_Beast))?

On a more serious matter, I'll PEACH this class in a couple of days, there looks to be a lot of information to sort out.

Omnicrat
2013-11-06, 12:46 AM
I'm not sure what part of the wording is giving that impression.

Basically, it's meant to be a balance.

You can know few spells but cast them rapidly, Know many but cast them less often, Best of both but have little elsewhere to improve on. Worse of both and still have much to throw around.

I read it as bonus ability instead of bonus feat the first few times. :smalltongue:

Still, you don't get the ability to both know and cast spells until level 3, which seems a bit odd. Perhaps the first 3 steps of each could be put into a single ability?

edit: That's not true at all. :smalltongue: 4 at first level. Still odd that you can know spells you can't cast or cast spells you can't know, though. Maybe if you have the ability to cast and know 0th or 1st level spells, it acctually gives 1 spell per level known and 1 spell per level cast?

edit 2: aaannd that is already taken care of! :smalltongue: I need to stop reading homebrew when I'm so sleepy...

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-06, 12:08 PM
Anybody else think that the guy in the middle looks like Gaston (http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Gaston_(Beauty_and_the_Beast))?

On a more serious matter, I'll PEACH this class in a couple of days, there looks to be a lot of information to sort out.

lol, he kind of does! :smallbiggrin:

And thanks in advance for the PEACH.


I read it as bonus ability instead of bonus feat the first few times. :smalltongue:

Still, you don't get the ability to both know and cast spells until level 3, which seems a bit odd. Perhaps the first 3 steps of each could be put into a single ability?

edit: That's not true at all. :smalltongue: 4 at first level. Still odd that you can know spells you can't cast or cast spells you can't know, though. Maybe if you have the ability to cast and know 0th or 1st level spells, it acctually gives 1 spell per level known and 1 spell per level cast?

edit 2: aaannd that is already taken care of! :smalltongue: I need to stop reading homebrew when I'm so sleepy...

lol, :smallbiggrin:

I do stupid stuff all the time when tired, don't sweat it.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-06, 12:15 PM
I also feel the need to remind people, like noted in the original post this is updated often (at least when I'm currently in the process of working on it) so I am constantly changing it even now, so what you see one day may not be there the next as I try to find a balanced and suitable change.

Also, I'm probably dropping the Spellcraft mechanic for the sake of simplicity and not letting magic become OP and broken again.

Omnicrat
2013-11-06, 12:57 PM
...Also, I'm probably dropping the Spellcraft mechanic for the sake of simplicity and not letting magic become OP and broken again.

You already capped spellcasting at 5th level spells, that should be good enough, I think.

You could always just make a not that the spellcraft rules are optional? Perhaps segragate everything to do with them from the rest of the class?

If you really think they need a further nerf, you could just tie them into bonus abilities like I thought they were in the first place.

Or did you mean you were dropping the current mechanic in place of another one?

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-06, 01:23 PM
You already capped spellcasting at 5th level spells, that should be good enough, I think.

You could always just make a not that the spellcraft rules are optional? Perhaps segragate everything to do with them from the rest of the class?

If you really think they need a further nerf, you could just tie them into bonus abilities like I thought they were in the first place.

Or did you mean you were dropping the current mechanic in place of another one?

Adding it to Bonus abilities is a good idea, I'd have to look at that and see what I can do. :smallsmile:

Otherwise I'd probably make the spellcraft rules optional.

Der_DWSage
2013-11-06, 06:17 PM
Alright, now that I've had a good look at things...

1)Magic

1.a)Putting Spell Slinger and Spell Keeper as additional things just...irks me. Why not just nix them, and add in 'You cast from the Low Table' into the description of Novice Spell Caster? Consolidated formatting is always better than spreading the information hither and yon.

1.b)Do you still gain additional spells per day from having a high casting stat, or is that thrown out with the low/medium/high tables? It doesn't specify.

1.c)'Bonus Ability:Pick an element, you may covert any damage you do to that damage type instead as a free action. Prerequisites: Novice Spell Caster' does not specify that it's meant for spells only, despite the intent. (Unless you do mean for everyone to be able to punch with Sonic damage.)

1.d)All Spell Lists. How do you intend to accommodate for those that have the same spells, but at lower levels? Should it be 'Highest level from core' or 'Lowest level possible' and let people have all kinds of Trapsmith spells?

1.e)I'm also voting you re-tweak that metamagic bit. A roll of 44 on Spellcraft isn't exactly difficult to make at level 9, especially if you get your hands on a skill-boosting item.



2)Feats

2.a)More of a question than a nitpick. Why do you require people to have Improved Unarmed Strike before being able to take the Monk Unarmed Strike?

2.b)University could use its formatting cleared up. I presume it means that a character gets 10+INT skill points rather than 8+INT skill points per level.

2.c)Poison Use is really lame, mate. It's a class feature replaced by a set of good gloves. (The only penalties for using poison untrained are a 5% chance of poisoning yourself...with a DC 15 reflex save to avoid it even if you do fail.) I know it's iconic to include, but it's honestly not worth the paper it's written on. (This is pure nitpick.)

2.d)Just a minor thing I notice. You have a bunch of static bonuses (+1 to all saves, +2 to damage/+1 attack, +1 attack/AC/damage, etc.) next to the feats that scale properly, (Compare them to Awesome Grace, Add Modifier to damage/AC/attack, etc.) and they really don't measure up. Just something to think about.

2.e)Wildshape. I know it's iconic too, but it's honestly the biggest gamebreaker out there, and you're not allowing spells above 5th level for the same reason. Why not replace it with the Shapeshift ability from PHBII? Far less broken while still letting someone play the whole 'I'm able to turn into a variety of animals at will' shtick.



3)Maneuvers

3.a)Does Initiator Level = character level, or is this considered cross-classing? Because if the former...I'm a bit iffy about allowing full IL with two feats if you're capping spells at 5th level. That's some powerful stuff.

3.b)With the addition of Initiator Feats, do these characters also count as all three ToB classes for the purposes of certain magic items, do they pick one, or do they never count? How about for those without Initiator Feats?



4)General Notes

4.a)If we're going full out for 'allowing all concepts,' then how about including the Kensai's 'I have my own magic weapon' ability for those that want the ability to enchant their fists and natural weapons.

4.b)You noted you wanted ideas on making mental stats more relevant to people. For regular classes, the only mechanical advantage you get is Wisdom -> Will Saves. You currently have...
Wisdom ->Attack (Ranged only), damage, AC, Will Saves
Charisma ->All saves, Healing (Lay Hands), Smite, AC, Initiative
Intelligence ->Skill Points, Initiative, Reflex

So you may just want to make a spreadsheet of what you're allowing each stat to apply to, if that's one of your design goals, and ensure they stack against each other.

4.c)I like the general idea, and I'm glad you're taking ideas. Just be careful of Design Bloat, where you throw in every little thing that sounds good rather than carefully considering things.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-06, 10:54 PM
1.a)Putting Spell Slinger and Spell Keeper as additional things just...irks me. Why not just nix them, and add in 'You cast from the Low Table' into the description of Novice Spell Caster? Consolidated formatting is always better than spreading the information hither and yon.

The idea is to not make someone an expert caster with just a handful of feats being as magic is the most OP thing in the game.

But I'll admit it does seem a bit inflated atm and the Level 5 limit is a pretty huge debuff.

If I'm reading your advice right though, are you suggesting that I simply make it the 5 "Spell Caster" feats and simply remove the "Spell Keeper" and "Spell Slinger" feats?


1.b)Do you still gain additional spells per day from having a high casting stat, or is that thrown out with the low/medium/high tables? It doesn't specify.

Yes you still gain bonus spells per day from a high casting stat.
Normal D&D rules are to be followed with this build unless if it states otherwise.


1.c)'Bonus Ability:Pick an element, you may covert any damage you do to that damage type instead as a free action. Prerequisites: Novice Spell Caster' does not specify that it's meant for spells only, despite the intent. (Unless you do mean for everyone to be able to punch with Sonic damage.)

It was originally meant for spell casters only. But then I looked at it and saw potential for arcane warriors so I changed it to allow all weapons. Looking at it again though, I'll probably go back and add a requirement for them to know a damage spell of said element first though.


1.d)All Spell Lists. How do you intend to accommodate for those that have the same spells, but at lower levels? Should it be 'Highest level from core' or 'Lowest level possible' and let people have all kinds of Trapsmith spells?

I leave it up for the Player to decide.


1.e)I'm also voting you re-tweak that metamagic bit. A roll of 44 on Spellcraft isn't exactly difficult to make at level 9, especially if you get your hands on a skill-boosting item.

This is the main issue :/

I know for mix-maxer's it's too easy to make a check like that.
But for typical non-optimizing D&D players such a skill check is very hard to make, even at Level 20.

So I really need to balance it to be "Should I make it balanced for non-optimizer's, or for optimizer's". The general idea so far though as been for non-optimizer's since the very idea of "Take what you want" would give optimizer's unlimited range to abuse the system.

If you have ideas on how to make it fair and balanced for both groups please suggest it because I'm at a loss in that regard at the moment.


2.a)More of a question than a nitpick. Why do you require people to have Improved Unarmed Strike before being able to take the Monk Unarmed Strike?

It makes no sense for someone to be able have the unarmed fighting skill as a Monk if they lack the feat that basically shows proficiency/training in unarmed combat. Besides it is a feat the Monk and Unarmed Swordsage both have anyways.


2.b)University could use its formatting cleared up. I presume it means that a character gets 10+INT skill points rather than 8+INT skill points per level.

The current wording is mostly off of the source I got it from. But I do agree that the wording you have here is probably easier to follow and I'll be sure to alter it.


2.c)Poison Use is really lame, mate. It's a class feature replaced by a set of good gloves. (The only penalties for using poison untrained are a 5% chance of poisoning yourself...with a DC 15 reflex save to avoid it even if you do fail.) I know it's iconic to include, but it's honestly not worth the paper it's written on. (This is pure nitpick.)

I know it is, but I didn't want to not include it and have someone go "What if I want to work with poison!".
But seeing as it is a simple feat anyways and not something like a class feature I'll probably remove it to free up some room.


2.d)Just a minor thing I notice. You have a bunch of static bonuses (+1 to all saves, +2 to damage/+1 attack, +1 attack/AC/damage, etc.) next to the feats that scale properly, (Compare them to Awesome Grace, Add Modifier to damage/AC/attack, etc.) and they really don't measure up. Just something to think about.

+1 to all saves > +2 to one save feats
+2 damage/+1 attack = Upgraded fighter feats
+1 attack/AC/damage = New fighting style (Granted the one handed weapon style is still in beta. I'm still looking for much advice here in how to improve it. I want it to rely more on finesse though than raw strength and power. That's what Two Handed is for).

The things you mentioned like awesome grace are technically better, if the accompanying ability score is high enough. Most of them won't be so useful to the typical player (unless if they invest their gold into all six ability boosting items, also effectively taking up many magic item slots).

I do get what you're saying though, I'm just trying not to ramp up the feats to a point of being broken. Any advice you have in this regard would be most appreciated.


2.e)Wildshape. I know it's iconic too, but it's honestly the biggest gamebreaker out there, and you're not allowing spells above 5th level for the same reason. Why not replace it with the Shapeshift ability from PHBII? Far less broken while still letting someone play the whole 'I'm able to turn into a variety of animals at will' shtick.

Maybe. I get what you're saying here.

Though a big peeve I have with Shapeshift is the fact that eventually Bear > Wolf and the only reason to say be any kind of wolf like creature is flavour. Granted in most cases Wild Shape has the same problem. If I were to be this switch I'd probably re-write shape-shifter a bit and then add it in.


3.a)Does Initiator Level = character level, or is this considered cross-classing? Because if the former...I'm a bit iffy about allowing full IL with two feats if you're capping spells at 5th level. That's some powerful stuff.

It would equal character level. Looking back I noticed I didn't really clarify this well though.

I now altered it under Bonus Feats that "Your class level here also counts as any class level for the requirements of class only feats and class features".

I was doing it one feat per table value though, and my logic was that the maneuvers were designed to help martial catch up to casters, but doesn't actually get close to beating them.

However, I do see how only 2 feats can be broken. It's just a matter of knowing how to sort the feats out though.
I'm thinking by maneuver/stance level like I did for feats with spell level. Thoughts?


3.b)With the addition of Initiator Feats, do these characters also count as all three ToB classes for the purposes of certain magic items, do they pick one, or do they never count? How about for those without Initiator Feats?

I'd say they count as all three, but they won't stack. Like for example, 3 levels of this class will be 3 initiator levels in any class they choose, but it won't be 9 initiator levels.


4.a)If we're going full out for 'allowing all concepts,' then how about including the Kensai's 'I have my own magic weapon' ability for those that want the ability to enchant their fists and natural weapons.

Sure, I'll read it over again and see how I can fit it in. :)


4.b)You noted you wanted ideas on making mental stats more relevant to people. For regular classes, the only mechanical advantage you get is Wisdom -> Will Saves. You currently have...
Wisdom ->Attack (Ranged only), damage, AC, Will Saves
Charisma ->All saves, Healing (Lay Hands), Smite, AC, Initiative
Intelligence ->Skill Points, Initiative, Reflex

So you may just want to make a spreadsheet of what you're allowing each stat to apply to, if that's one of your design goals, and ensure they stack against each other.

Good point. I'll probably set up a table under Bonus Feats above the lists of what you can buy for it.
Though this does remind me, this essentially makes Mental abilities all out better because with this class they work for spell casting, and martial so you can just be a martial caster who uses just mental states.

So I might also start looking for ways to make physical scores a bit more helpful/useful to characters.
Any ideas? Currently all I can think of is fairly generic, like Strength or Constitution being a casting ability score.


4.c)I like the general idea, and I'm glad you're taking ideas. Just be careful of Design Bloat, where you throw in every little thing that sounds good rather than carefully considering things.

Thanks for all the help :)

I`m trying to be mindful of design bloat, but at the same time I do kind of need to encompass a ton of different ideas seeing as it`s a "Be what you want" class.

Der_DWSage
2013-11-07, 03:03 AM
The idea is to not make someone an expert caster with just a handful of feats being as magic is the most OP thing in the game.

But I'll admit it does seem a bit inflated atm and the Level 5 limit is a pretty huge debuff.

If I'm reading your advice right though, are you suggesting that I simply make it the 5 "Spell Caster" feats and simply remove the "Spell Keeper" and "Spell Slinger" feats?
Er, bit of a misunderstanding here. I was actually saying remove the Spell Keeper and Spell Slinger feats altogether, and just rewrite 'Novice Spell Caster' to say something along the lines of...

Novice Spell Caster: Gain the ability to spontaneously cast and know 0 and 1st level spells. Your spells known and spells per day are based on the Low Table.




This is the main issue :/

I know for mix-maxer's it's too easy to make a check like that.
But for typical non-optimizing D&D players such a skill check is very hard to make, even at Level 20.

So I really need to balance it to be "Should I make it balanced for non-optimizer's, or for optimizer's". The general idea so far though as been for non-optimizer's since the very idea of "Take what you want" would give optimizer's unlimited range to abuse the system.

If you have ideas on how to make it fair and balanced for both groups please suggest it because I'm at a loss in that regard at the moment.

As someone else on the forums put it-homebrewers have a bit more responsibility to ensure their homebrew isn't as abusable, simply because you are scrutinized more closely by GMs that may or may not put you in their games.

Afraid I don't really have an easy solution for the metamagic problem, save perhaps for the idea of re-introducing spontaneous Metamagic.




It makes no sense for someone to be able have the unarmed fighting skill as a Monk if they lack the feat that basically shows proficiency/training in unarmed combat. Besides it is a feat the Monk and Unarmed Swordsage both have anyways.
I suppose, but requiring two feats for a 'weapon' that's usually considered subpar grates on me a bit.



I was doing it one feat per table value though, and my logic was that the maneuvers were designed to help martial catch up to casters, but doesn't actually get close to beating them.

However, I do see how only 2 feats can be broken. It's just a matter of knowing how to sort the feats out though.
I'm thinking by maneuver/stance level like I did for feats with spell level. Thoughts?
Yeah, only two feats makes it far too easy for them to be abused. It then becomes a question of 'Why -wouldn't- you be a full Warblade in addition to everything else?'

I'd say putting it to 2 maneuver levels per feat would be a pretty simple fix, with 9th level being by itself. Perhaps add one in so that you qualify for three schools per feat chosen.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-07, 11:26 AM
Er, bit of a misunderstanding here. I was actually saying remove the Spell Keeper and Spell Slinger feats altogether, and just rewrite 'Novice Spell Caster' to say something along the lines of...

Novice Spell Caster: Gain the ability to spontaneously cast and know 0 and 1st level spells. Your spells known and spells per day are based on the Low Table.

So it is what I thought you were saying :p
I think we just worded it differently is all. I can see what you're saying here and I'll probably go back and change it.

Though a question, I'm wondering I should make the spell casting abilities only available at level 1 or not. Otherwise the HD lower system I put in could be used for people to lower their HD just for any bonus class abilities theoretically.


As someone else on the forums put it-homebrewers have a bit more responsibility to ensure their homebrew isn't as abusable, simply because you are scrutinized more closely by GMs that may or may not put you in their games.

Afraid I don't really have an easy solution for the metamagic problem, save perhaps for the idea of re-introducing spontaneous Metamagic.

That does remind me, I'm not 100% sure how Meta-magic would work with people who take the "Prepared Caster" variant. At least as far as spell craft checks go. Do they make it when they cast the prepared spell? While preparing it? I'm thinking they track which one's were meta-magic with spell craft and to roll the spell craft when it's actually being cast.


I suppose, but requiring two feats for a 'weapon' that's usually considered subpar grates on me a bit.

Good point.

Honestly I think I'm over valuing it too much because a lot of my D&D experience was from a DM who found it 'fun' to constantly strip players of all their items and never return them.

(If you ever saw the Listen & Spot Check penalty thread, it's the same DM).

But I honestly shouldn't be looking at such a horrid DM style like his and valuing things accordingly. Though it was unconcious and catching this I'll have the feat given for free with the Monk ability.


Yeah, only two feats makes it far too easy for them to be abused. It then becomes a question of 'Why -wouldn't- you be a full Warblade in addition to everything else?'

I'd say putting it to 2 maneuver levels per feat would be a pretty simple fix, with 9th level being by itself. Perhaps add one in so that you qualify for three schools per feat chosen.

That totals up to 5 feats in terms of maneuver levels.

Plus even more for access to the schools.
That currently makes it even more feat intensive than spell casting.

Omnicrat
2013-11-10, 05:13 AM
University Background needs a distinct boost compared to the other background feats.

You have feats that effectively give 9 + int skill points, and substantial bonuses to the player that would take them, while for 10 + int skill points, one must take a penalty.

It is also no where near as flavorful as your other background feats.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-10, 01:33 PM
University Background needs a distinct boost compared to the other background feats.

You have feats that effectively give 9 + int skill points, and substantial bonuses to the player that would take them, while for 10 + int skill points, one must take a penalty.

It is also no where near as flavorful as your other background feats.

True. Though the 9+ is to specific skills, while University had more flexibility.
I do recognize it is currently a bit behind though and suggestions to improve it would be appreciated.

Omnicrat
2013-11-10, 07:08 PM
True. Though the 9+ is to specific skills, while University had more flexibility.
I do recognize it is currently a bit behind though and suggestions to improve it would be appreciated.

Off the top of my head...

Give +2 to bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, and gather information in an academic environment.

75% discount when dealing with Academia.

The more I think about it, 10+ sp doesn't really fit university. Change it to 9+ with the extra forced into a knowledge skill.

Put in the ability to spend time/money to increase training (points) in a specific skill. Basically taking a class. (might have this be an option for everyone, but have it take less time/money for someone with a university background)

Now, if you take that suggestion for university background to give a full knowledge skill rather than 10+, you could use something like...

Gifted
Special: Must be taken as a background feat at first level.
Class has 9+int skill points instead of 8+int. In addition, the character gets +2 int. When making a Diplomacy or Gather Information* check, add 1 for ever 5 points of intelligence you and the target share above 10. For a Bluff or Sense Motive check, add 1 for every 5 points of intelligence above 10 that you have but your target does not.

*Use the average for the environment. In most cases this will not give you a bonus, but it can in a University setting or the like.

Also, I think I would like gifted more as a birth feat, so that you can take both Gifted and University Background. That, or you make 5 more feats like that, create a Gifted bonus category that you can take one of at first level, and have that be Gifted with Intelligence.

edit: If you add Gifted feats, you might make that extra skill point per level be required to go into a skill that uses that ability as the base.

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-12, 07:13 AM
Off the top of my head...

Give +2 to bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, and gather information in an academic environment.

75% discount when dealing with Academia.

The more I think about it, 10+ sp doesn't really fit university. Change it to 9+ with the extra forced into a knowledge skill.

Put in the ability to spend time/money to increase training (points) in a specific skill. Basically taking a class. (might have this be an option for everyone, but have it take less time/money for someone with a university background)

Now, if you take that suggestion for university background to give a full knowledge skill rather than 10+, you could use something like...

Gifted
Special: Must be taken as a background feat at first level.
Class has 9+int skill points instead of 8+int. In addition, the character gets +2 int. When making a Diplomacy or Gather Information* check, add 1 for ever 5 points of intelligence you and the target share above 10. For a Bluff or Sense Motive check, add 1 for every 5 points of intelligence above 10 that you have but your target does not.

*Use the average for the environment. In most cases this will not give you a bonus, but it can in a University setting or the like.

Also, I think I would like gifted more as a birth feat, so that you can take both Gifted and University Background. That, or you make 5 more feats like that, create a Gifted bonus category that you can take one of at first level, and have that be Gifted with Intelligence.

edit: If you add Gifted feats, you might make that extra skill point per level be required to go into a skill that uses that ability as the base.

I'm not really sure the +1 per 5 levels to social skills makes sense though, even if it's restricted to a University setting.

With Gifted Feats, that seems a bit excessive. At least if you go with a typical ability score array for players since 10 = average, so you're always gifted anyways for the most part.

Omnicrat
2013-11-14, 02:40 AM
1) I'm really sure the +1 per 5 levels to social skills makes sense though, even if it's restricted to a University setting.

2) With Gifted Feats, that seems a bit excessive. At least if you go with a typical ability score array for players since 10 = average, so you're always gifted anyways for the most part.

1) This is the University Background feat that you have. University Background: Skill Points per level is 10+Int Mod rather than 8+Int Mod. -100gp at character creation. So no idea what you are talking about here...

2) Yes, you are gifted in the sense that you are above average, but your goal with this class is to let players play the character they want, with the talents and flaws they see fit to have. On that note, is not a feat that lets one be one of the sharpest minds, or most charismatic personalities, or nimble thieves exactly the sort of thing you want for this class?

Gwazi Magnum
2013-11-15, 11:51 PM
1) This is the University Background feat that you have. University Background: Skill Points per level is 10+Int Mod rather than 8+Int Mod. -100gp at character creation. So no idea what you are talking about here...

2) Yes, you are gifted in the sense that you are above average, but your goal with this class is to let players play the character they want, with the talents and flaws they see fit to have. On that note, is not a feat that lets one be one of the sharpest minds, or most charismatic personalities, or nimble thieves exactly the sort of thing you want for this class?

1) I made a typo. I meant to say the suggestion of adding diplomacy checks to the University feat didn't seem to make much sense to me.

2) I get what you're saying. But I figured the ability score arrays already covered ones potential in certain fields and areas. I guess I'd need a better idea of what the feats for each of the six scores would be though before I can give a final answer/ruling on the idea though.

Omnicrat
2013-11-16, 05:37 AM
1) I made a typo. I meant to say the suggestion of adding diplomacy checks to the University feat didn't seem to make much sense to me.

2) I get what you're saying. But I figured the ability score arrays already covered ones potential in certain fields and areas. I guess I'd need a better idea of what the feats for each of the six scores would be though before I can give a final answer/ruling on the idea though.

1) Okay, still a bit confused. I suggested +2 in the university setting, or +1 per 5 points of intelligence you an the target share above 10 (which will only come up in something like a university setting for Gather Information) for gather information and diplomacy and +1 per 5 points of intelligence the target has above the subject in sense motive and bluff for the Gifted Intellect feat.

The point of the first is that someone who spent much time in a university will presumably know the ins and outs of it, and be better at handling social situation there.

The point of the second is to reflect how they can get along well with people of completable intellects as well as fast-talk their intellectual inferiors and sniff out flaws in the stories people try to sell as truth.

2) I was going to write them up now (or at least Alpha versions) but I am much too tired, and I'll probably be busy over the next few days because of my birthday. I'll try and write them as soon as I can.

Legendxp
2013-11-16, 01:46 PM
Alright, instead of trying to tackle everything at once I've decided to slowly critique individual parts of this class.

First, I believe there might be too many feats. Are flaws still allowed? and do you still get feats as normal every 3 levels? If so, you're looking at ALOT of feats at 20th level.

1 for being human
2 from flaws
7 for leveling up
2 Given feats
2 Background feats
23 bonus feats (including the 3 from level 1, and the 2 from level 20)
7 more bonus feats from bonus abilities
The average unoptimized generic player can have 44 feats by 20th level. This is also not including the bonus feats you can get when spellcasting and trading in HD. This seems a bit overkill considering the numerous class features.

For comparison this is a fighter
1 for being human
2 from flaws
7 for leveling up
11 bonus feats
The average unoptimized fighter can have 21 feats by 20th level. Also keep in mind that more than half of these feats are also restricted to fighter only bonus feats. I couldn't find any restrictions for generic feats. I assume that you can take any feat that you meet the prerequisites for?

Now this many feats isn't necessarily a bad thing. Remember, a fighter is a tier 5 class and not very versatile. However, I thought this was worth mentioning as I wasn't sure if this was your intent. If it was, then ignore this post in its entirety. If it wasn't, a simple fix would be to get rid of bonus feats in the ability section and from levels 3, 6, 9, etc, since you already get feats those levels anyway from leveling up.

Also, as a side note, happy birthday Omnicrat! :biggrin:

Finally, expect more posts from me in the future, though I can't say how helpful I'll be. You don't have to feel obligated to respond to this post but I would like it if you checked out my Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16309334) class. Even if you don't want to comment on it.

Omnicrat
2013-11-17, 05:31 AM
Alright, instead of trying to tackle everything at once I've decided to slowly critique individual parts of this class.

First, I believe there might be too many feats. Are flaws still allowed? and do you still get feats as normal every 3 levels? If so, you're looking at ALOT of feats at 20th level.

1 for being human
2 from flaws
7 for leveling up
2 Given feats
2 Background feats
23 bonus feats (including the 3 from level 1, and the 2 from level 20)
7 more bonus feats from bonus abilities
The average unoptimized generic player can have 44 feats by 20th level. This is also not including the bonus feats you can get when spellcasting and trading in HD. This seems a bit overkill considering the numerous class features.

For comparison this is a fighter
1 for being human
2 from flaws
7 for leveling up
11 bonus feats
The average unoptimized fighter can have 21 feats by 20th level. Also keep in mind that more than half of these feats are also restricted to fighter only bonus feats. I couldn't find any restrictions for generic feats. I assume that you can take any feat that you meet the prerequisites for?

Now this many feats isn't necessarily a bad thing. Remember, a fighter is a tier 5 class and not very versatile. However, I thought this was worth mentioning as I wasn't sure if this was your intent. If it was, then ignore this post in its entirety. If it wasn't, a simple fix would be to get rid of bonus feats in the ability section and from levels 3, 6, 9, etc, since you already get feats those levels anyway from leveling up.

Also, as a side note, happy birthday Omnicrat! :biggrin:

Finally, expect more posts from me in the future, though I can't say how helpful I'll be. You don't have to feel obligated to respond to this post but I would like it if you checked out my Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16309334) class. Even if you don't want to comment on it.

While it is a lot of feats, this class also gives you a lot to do with them. Its comprehensive class ability list, for example. Not including things that require casting, cannot be taken with one another (only disconting one half of those, clearly), and wild shape, there are 43 class features on that list, and I'm sure players could come up with their own interesting abilities for DM approval. Since only 30 of your 44 feats can be those class features, even if someone exclusively took them, they couldn't take all of them.

The short of it is, while it does give lots of feats, it gives you lots more to do with them.

Also remember, every character is intended to use this class (though I think it works as an independent class unto itself [and a fight fix if a few things are taken out]) so the many feats will balance with themselves.