PDA

View Full Version : 3.5 Need help patching up this monster.



Gnoman
2013-06-16, 02:10 PM
I threw a monster together for my campaign, but I'm always a bit iffy on double-checking my math, and have a tendency to forget to change obvious things when referencing an existing monster. Anyone mind looking over this for mistakes?




Behemoth
Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 30d8+153 (76 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+30
Attack: Gore +21melee (2d8+15)
Full Attack: Gore +21 melee (2d8+15)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Fast Run, Assault Charge
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-12)
Challenge Rating: ?
Level Adjustment: --

Fast Run

A Behemoth can run at 8x it's base speed, and can maintain this for 1d4+Con Rounds

Assault Charge

A Behemoth does hextuple damage with it's horn attack while charging.

necroon
2013-06-16, 03:27 PM
I can certainly give it a go! (Though there are others that are much better at this kinda thing... coughdebihumancough)
First the HP seems a bit off. Animals should have D8's for HP meaning, if memory serves, that get 5+CON HP per HD.



Hit Dice: 30d8+153 (76 hp)
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2


With that in mind I'd think the HP values should be...
"30D8+270 (420)"
If you don't mind me asking whats the monster for? Like what's it's role in the setting? And did you make it from the ground up or advance it from an existing monster?

Gnoman
2013-06-16, 03:31 PM
That's an error on my part. I used a rhino as a base, and forgot to change the "average" HP line when I changed the Hit Dice.


The purpose in the campaign is that goblins have started covering them in armor and cannon to serve as heavy assault units.

necroon
2013-06-16, 03:41 PM
That's an error on my part. I used a rhino as a base, and forgot to change the "average" HP line when I changed the Hit Dice.


The purpose in the campaign is that goblins have started covering them in armor and cannon to serve as heavy assault units.

Ah neat!
Using an existing creature is a lot easier than working one from the ground up :smallsmile:
For every 3 HD you add to an animal the CR goes up by 1 so that should help you figure the CR out. I believe that a size Increase is worth a +1 CR as well.
With that said, as it stands, he should be... CR 15, I think?
The AC also appears to be missing the +1 Dex Modifier from being Dex 13. I believe there should also be a -8 size penalty to attack rolls and Armor Class as well for being Gargantuan.

inuyasha
2013-06-16, 03:53 PM
I threw a monster together for my campaign, but I'm always a bit iffy on double-checking my math, and have a tendency to forget to change obvious things when referencing an existing monster. Anyone mind looking over this for mistakes?




Behemoth
Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 30d8+153 (76 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+30
Attack: Gore +21melee (2d8+15)
Full Attack: Gore +21 melee (2d8+15)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Fast Run, Assault Charge
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-12)
Challenge Rating: ?
Level Adjustment: --

Fast Run

A Behemoth can run at 8x it's base speed, and can maintain this for 1d4+Con Rounds

Assault Charge

A Behemoth does hextuple damage with it's horn attack while charging.


well, hextuple damage is alot (2d8+15*6!) and the charge thing is okay I guess, but the natural armor is abysmally low for its hit dice, is this a copypasta mistake?

also, for better formatting can I suggest this? (http://dspeyer.dyndns.org/monster_builder.html)

Gnoman
2013-06-16, 04:22 PM
well, hextuple damage is alot (2d8+15*6!) and the charge thing is okay I guess, but the natural armor is abysmally low for its hit dice, is this a copypasta mistake?

also, for better formatting can I suggest this? (http://dspeyer.dyndns.org/monster_builder.html)

I'm not entirely certain, but I suspect that I left the natural armor alone because I intended it to be fought with armor on. It probably is a fair bit low.

The main reason that the charge damage is so high is because I envisioned these charging and spearing one another with their horns, and I wanted them to be able to seriously hurt one another with them. Of course, this makes them incredibly dangerous to PCs as well, but that's a desired outcome. My players are hard to kill for some reason.

TuggyNE
2013-06-16, 05:09 PM
How's this for a reformatted version? (Also, sundry math/grammar errors fixed.)

Behemoth: Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 30d8+270 (420 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 10 (-8 size, +7 natural, +1 Dex), touch 3, flat-footed 9
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+48
Attack: Gore +32 melee (6d6+15)
Full Attack: Gore +32 melee (6d6+15)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Assault Charge
Special Qualities: Fast Run, Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +18, Will +11
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +36, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-12)
Challenge Rating: ?
Level Adjustment: —

Fast Run (Ex)
A Behemoth can run at 8x its base speed, and can maintain this for up to 1d4+Con modifier rounds.

Assault Charge (Ex)
A Behemoth does hextuple (x6) damage with its horn attack while charging.

Fast Run should probably apply to charges, at say 4x. Also note the increase in gore damage from size increase (rhino's Large to Colossal shifts it up three steps from 2d6). I'd suggest giving it a trample attack and/or a tail slap as well to give it something to do on full attacks. Oh, and the AC is now criminally low, even with full plate barding. That needs some adjustment.

Gnoman
2013-06-16, 05:31 PM
What's normal natural armor for a creature this tough? A trample attack is a good idea.

Draken
2013-06-16, 05:36 PM
It's single attack means it should deal 1.5 times its strength score in extra damage, so +22 there.

Anyway based on damage output and on how resilient it is, this should probably be a CR 13-15 creature.

It is noteworthy, however, that that x6 charge will murder just about any PC that gets hit, 36d6+90 damage averages to 216 damage after all.

Natural armor should probably be along the lines of +20, if you treat it as a super-rhino (size increases add a lot of NA).

Then again, a rhino of that size would have an Str score of 50.

Gnoman
2013-06-16, 06:14 PM
It's single attack means it should deal 1.5 times its strength score in extra damage, so +22 there.

Anyway based on damage output and on how resilient it is, this should probably be a CR 13-15 creature.

It is noteworthy, however, that that x6 charge will murder just about any PC that gets hit, 36d6+90 damage averages to 216 damage after all.

Natural armor should probably be along the lines of +20, if you treat it as a super-rhino (size increases add a lot of NA).

Then again, a rhino of that size would have an Str score of 50.

I'll add a -10 penalty on horn charges against anything smaller than Large to compensate for the high damage. The charge is meant for goring other behemoths more than it is the PCs (who it will attack with normal horn and the suggested tail attack.

Draken
2013-06-16, 08:19 PM
I'll add a -10 penalty on horn charges against anything smaller than Large to compensate for the high damage. The charge is meant for goring other behemoths more than it is the PCs (who it will attack with normal horn and the suggested tail attack.

Kind of an arbitrary fix.

The real problem is the x6 charge multiplier. And strictly speaking, for PCs of that level it poses no threat since it can't fly, can't see invisible, and otherwise can't deal with the thousands of tricks that a party of level 10+ will have. Unless it is fought on a tunnel or as a mount for something else.

Debihuman
2013-06-17, 06:00 PM
How's this for a reformatted version? (Also, sundry math/grammar errors fixed.)

It is missing 8 feats. One of its feats should be Run. (Fast Run as a special ability should be limited to once a day and afterwards the creature should be Fatigued).

Space/Reach is wrong. Colossal creatures have 30 ft. space. If they are tall, they have 30-foot reach. If they are long, they have 20-foot reach. This should have 20-foot reach.

melee is BAB + Size modifier + Str Modifier (22 - 8 +10 = 24 not 32).

On average a charging assault will cause 141 points of damage. That is enough to cause death from massive damage. TPKs are never much fun, however, this is like being chased by a brick wall. As long as the PCs are out of range, they're golden. Unfortunately, I think the 36d6 damage of the assault charge is overkill. There's no good reason it should cause that much damage.

To make it a little more interesting, how a bout a trample attack?

The problem is that it is physically too powerful and has the potential to cause the PCs too much damage. However, it has no defenses and it doesn't have an real special abilities that challenge a higher level party. This has the potential to be a TPK if the PCs aren't prepared. It makes for long and boring combat and will probably result in PC death. This is not something I'm really fond of.

The trample save is particularly ugly as it is usually Strength-based. On this creature, I recommend the Reflex save DC be Dex based just to give the PCs a chance to succeed on it. DC 26 vs. DC 35.

Because you've given it Improved Natural Attack, it doesn't gain a better attack when it increases in size. I recommend that it not advance.

To keep it from being stupidly damaging, multiplying damage does not include bonus damage.

______________________________________

Vorpal Tribble’s CR estimator doesn't work for creatures w/more than 25 HD.

#1. Divide creature's average HP by 4.5 to 6.5.
4.5 for 5 HD or lower, 5 for 6-10 HD, 5.5 for 11-15 HD, 6 for 16-20 HD., 6.5 for 20-25 HD.

#2. Add 1 for each five points above 10 its AC is, subtracting 1 for every 5 below.

#3. Add 1 for each special attack (+2 to +5 or more if it has a decent number of spells in its spell-like abilities).

#4. Add 1 for each quality unless you deem it worthy of more. Add 1 for each resistance and 10 points of DR it has, and 2 for each immunity. Subtract 1 for each vulnerability.

#5. Add 1 for every two bonus feats it has.

#6. Divide total by 3. This should be its rough CR.


Debby

TuggyNE
2013-06-17, 08:03 PM
A few more suggestions: give it Jump as a class skill (not necessarily with any ranks, though), crank its NA up to around 23 (7 + double size modifier, because it has very thick skin), bump its Cha up a lot (2 is just asking for an ego whip) and then maybe give it some sort of Frightful Presence. Maybe also let it add its Cha to deflection AC, although either of the last two probably demands switching to Magical Beast type.


It is missing 8 feats. One of its feats should be Run. (Fast Run as a special ability should be limited to once a day and afterwards the creature should be Fatigued).

Good old Debby. Yeah, I noticed the missing feats but then forgot to include a note to that effect.


Space/Reach is wrong. Colossal creatures have 30 ft. space. If they are tall, they have 30-foot reach. If they are long, they have 20-foot reach. This should have 20-foot reach.

melee is BAB + Size modifier + Str Modifier (22 - 8 +10 = 24 not 32).

Somehow managed to miss both of these. :smallsigh:


Because you've given it Improved Natural Attack, it doesn't gain a better attack when it increases in size. I recommend that it not advance.

Wait, what?


To keep it from being stupidly damaging, multiplying damage does not include bonus damage.

Better would probably just be to bite the bullet and cut the multiplier down. Unlabeled inconsistencies like that are likely to lead to confusion.

Debihuman
2013-06-18, 06:01 PM
I threw a monster together for my campaign, but I'm always a bit iffy on double-checking my math, and have a tendency to forget to change obvious things when referencing an existing monster. Anyone mind looking over this for mistakes?

Get rid of the code block. It's not needed at all.

Natural attack is 1 and 1/2 Str modifier in bonus damage because it has only one natural attack. Its Str modifier is +10.

Melee is BAB + Str + size: 22 +10 -8 (+24)

Hit points are off. 30d8 = 30x4.5 = 135, 9x30= 270, 135+270=405.

Initiative includes bonus from improved initiative feat but it seems to be missing in feats. I also filled out its feats based on what it does.

BAB is not +12 it is +22. 30 x .75 = 22.5 and you round down. Grapple has a special size modifier (for colossal creatures it is +16). A grapple is BAB + Str modifier + special size modifier 22+10+16=48.

Special abilities always have a designator (Ex, Sp or Su). These should be Ex. They are listed in alphabetical order too.

Here is the updated stat block using your new numbers.

Behemoth
Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 30d8+270 (405 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 10 (-8 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 3, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+48
Attack: Gore +24 melee (2d8+15)
Full Attack: Gore +24 melee (2d8+15)
Face/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Assault charge, fast run
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dire Charge [Epic], Dodge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, Run
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-12)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Level Adjustment: --

Fast Run (Ex): A behemoth can run at 8x its base speed, and can maintain this for 1d4 plus its Constitution modifier rounds.

Assault Charge (Ex): A behemoth does hextuple damage with its horn attack while charging.

Debby

Gnoman
2013-06-19, 04:52 PM
Behemoth
Colossal Animal
Hit Dice: 30d8+270 (405 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 10 (-8 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 3, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +22/+48
Attack: Gore +24 melee (2d8+15)
Full Attack: Gore +24 melee (2d8+15)
Face/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Assault charge, fast run
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 29, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2
Skills: Listen +14, Spot +3
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Diehard, Dire Charge [Epic], Dodge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, Run
Environment: Warm plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (2-12)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always Neutral
Level Adjustment: --

Fast Run (Ex): A behemoth can run at 8x its base speed, and can maintain this for 1d4 plus its Constitution modifier rounds.

Assault Charge (Ex): A behemoth does hextuple damage with its horn attack while charging.


This is pretty close to perfect, except I've decided to reduce the Assault charge bonus for x6 to x4.

Thanks for the assists, people.