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big teej
2013-06-17, 10:32 PM
Salutations my fellow playgrounders!

on a whim, I decided to start rereading some of my favorite webcomics from the beginning, amongst them is Goblins.

the first comic of which is this
http://www.goblinscomic.org/06262005/

this, in conjunction with a few other things*

made me want to compile a handbook for each class, detailing rules they should follow.

Ideally I'd like to see this "handbook" reach 100 items. but first things first, we need to hit 38 (as 38 has already been provided by the author of goblins)

please note this should be an "in character" handbook, something a paladin could actually receive in game, as such, it should not contain ANY build and/or meta advice.



*those other things being 1) my 1001 bits of adventuring advice thread from waaaaaaaaaaaaay back. and 2) one of my players is modeling a character quirk off of NCIS special agent gibbs (i.e. rules)


EDIT:

I give you The Paladin's Handbook
or at least, what we've done so far that I've had the time to collect into this post.

*I'm willing to open this to discussion, would y'all like to see 'sub-points' made into their own rules? or can rules have 'sub-points' ??? (for an example, see rules 1 and 2)


1. Don't be "lawful stupid"
- The world is not black and white; there are greater goods, lesser evils and shades of gray
- Evil does not need to be attacked on sight if patience may lead to defeating even a greater evil
- There are bad laws and evil people exploiting good laws
- Good always takes precedence over lawful

2. Use detect evil generously, but always discretely
- Agree on a secret signal or keyword with your teammates
- Make pausing in thought a mannerism that is common for you and not suspicious

3. Though you are but a mortal, never underestimate the value of your actions.

4. Your cause may be just and righteous, but never let arrogance dictate your actions.

5. There are many unlikely allies in the fight against evil; do not look into your companions histories too closely, lest you walk a lonely path.

6. Remember that just because it/he/she is evil doesn't present you with free pass to kill it. Murder is still murder even if the victim is a jerk.

7. Remember, while you gain points for killing evil things, you gain more for reforming them. You're an example to help lift people up, not smash them under your heel.

8. When camping outdoors, shake out your boots upside down before putting them on

9. Never go anywhere without a dagger.

10. Do not fear death. So long as you hold true to your morals, the mountains of Celestia wait for you, with a far less pleasant inevitability ahead of your enemies. However, do not throw your life away; you can do far more good in this world by living to fight another day than throwing your life away battling an enemy you cannot defeat.

11. Count to 10. Then count to 20

12. There is a Difference between giving your life in the defence of others or a cause greater than yourself, and throwing your life away in a fight you cannot win. "Throwing yourself into the Fires of Hell won't stop others from burning."

13. Be angry about something that doesn't affect you personally

14. Always have a ranged weapon or spell on hand. Even if it is your weakest attack, it is better than doing nothing.

15. Never fight an archer at range, a fighter up close, or let a caster finish a spell. Fight no one on their own terms.

16. No weapon is as powerful as knowledge of your foe.

17, Always have an escape plan.

18. Always interrogate prisoners separately and compare their stories afterwards

19. Always post sentries in pairs

20. Each day agree on a spot to meet up with your party if it splits up

21. If the enemy retreats, follow carefully it may be a trap.

22. If you must retreat, create a diversion.

23. In enemy territory take the most difficult path, it will be least guarded.

24. When traveling spread out the party so it can't be covered by a single area effect

25. Never attack when or where expected

26. If your enemy has the upper hand (or thinks he does) he will likely speak the truth

27. Allowing the torturing of prisoners is an abomination against your code. Letting a prisoner believe you'll look the other way is not.

28. If the enemy is down, do not trust his words

29. You are permitted to have fun.

30. You are permitted to make jokes.

31. You are permitted a drink or two at the tavern.

32. You are permitted some nooky.

33. You are permitted an equal share of all treasure hoards with the party. You decide what to do with it. You are permitted to spend some of it on yourself, such as improving weapon, armor, and helpful magic items.

34. Look for the good in others. You'll be surprised what you can learn from those that don't follow your path.

35. Going blackguard doesn't serve the Greater Good.

36. When choosing between lying to protect innocents and stabbing the (probably neutral) inquisitor in the face, lie. For the love of all that is good and holy, why would face-stabbing be the higher moral ground in this situation!?

37. If you need a Phylactery of Faithfulness, you are missing the point of being a paladin.

38. When the Minions of Evil start calling dibs on your gear, pray or run.

39. Bridle your passions and always keep a maintain a sense of decency and respect. You are a paladin at all times.

40. "I must examine the fine, rustic architecture" is not a valid excuse for allowing Evil to take place.

41. You are expected to fall. It's okay. One day or another you will find yourself in one of those impossible to win situations, where you fall no matter what - it's the way cruel universe works. After you fall, don't abandon your cause - you can still do good

42. You are trained to handle both social work and combat. Detect Evil is a tool to use in both situations, not an excuse to switch between them.

43. You will often work with nonpaladins. This is good. Don't try to limit the skills of that sneak or mage you work with because they aren't paladins. If you try, it will end badly for everyone. They have their skills for a reason, just as you do

44. Trust your party, they will save your bum more often than they engage in morally questionable behavior.

45. Feed your Iron Spikes to the Rust Monster. Not your armor.

46. Carry both Iron Rations and Iron Spikes

47. Don't be attached to your weapon or armor. If a better one comes along, use it.

48. Those who fear The Darkness have not seen what The Light can do... Illuminate them.

49. Donít hurt people if you can avoid it.

50. Donít steal stuff unless youíre starving or itís really, really important.

51. Work hard. Pay your bills.

52. Try to help others.

53. Always double-check your math if there are explosives involved.

54. If you screwed it up, you need to see it gets fixed.

55. Donít eat anything that talks.

56. If it doesnít fall under one of those categories, just do the best you can.

57. You are not perfect. You are an imperfect being trying to be better than your base nature and serve as an example, inspiration, and aid to others who would follow. (coidzor if you don't want me to take creative license with your contribute let me know and I'll change it back.)

58. Striving for perfection does not make you perfect. Others may make wiser choices or plans than you, or even spot your mistakes. Be humble and thank them for it

59. Know the teachings of your deity and adhere to them.

60. Heroic charges are not always necessary

61. Beware Evil Gnomes with Ballista

62. Whenever possible, obtain and use the element of surprise

63. In the event you need to sneak about, take steps to quiet the noise your armor will make.

64. When it comes to doing The Right Thing, trust your instincts, when it comes to doing what's Sneaky, ignore your instincts.

65. Observe and Respect The Chain of Command, lest ye be beaten with it.

66. Remember, appearances can be deceiving, that adorable woodland critter could be a monster in disguise.

67. Do not save the One over the Many. You try to save the One and then you try to save the Many. If you accept that you have to choose one over the other, you have already failed

68. Even a weak man can push someone to the ground. But lifting someone up again... that requires real strength.

69. Plan your battles patiently. Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

70. The more blood and sweat on the training grounds, the less on the battlefield.

71. Remember, your deity chose you, not the other way around.

72. The paladin's code is a guardrail, not a prisoner's restraint. Your purpose as a paladin is to perform the greatest good.

73. Learn to trust yourself, your cause/deity (setting specific), and you will be a more effective paladin.

74. You are not pure enough to redeem a succubus with your intimacy.

75. Remember to take care of your gear. Rust won't help you make an impression, not does it help your armor shed a strike.

76. Don't eat beans or broccoli before training, otherwise you'll make a lot of enemies.

77. Carry a comb and a razor at all times. Wash your face each morning, and cleanse yourself in a river after every major battle. Remember, you are supposed to be a role model. Look like one.

78. You choose not to be a paladin once. To choose to be a paladin you have choose to be so every single moment.

79. Bring rope. It has many uses, and when you need one, but don't have it, you'll miss it dearly.

80. Like rope, a cape has many uses. But you may want to make it easy to detach in case someone tries to grab it in a fight or it gets stuck in a trap.

81. If people wish to celebrate your victories, you are allowed to take part in the celebrations. People like it when their heroes are approachable.

82. Remember to rest. Unless you are on an urgent quest, give your body and mind time to recover so you may face danger at your best when it comes. Evil does not hold back just because you are tired.

83. Being loud and theatrical does have its time, but remember to have a backup plan when the dragon isn't impressed by it.

84. Give a man a fish and he is fed for a day. Teach a man to fish and he is fed for life. The same applies to doing good. Teach by example.

85. When you need to kill someone, be swift and efficient. Don't drag it out and cause undue pain and suffering.

86. pending




Contributers: Goblins Webcomic, Oglaf(can someone tell me if this is a person or a webcomic or something?), Bulhakov, SethoMarkus, hamlet, Lord Torath, Drelua, jaybird, Sun Tzu, navar100, Janus, Hyena, Winds, firedaemon33, Digger webcomic(?), Coidzor, Boutsofinsanity, Haley Starshine, Aux-Ash, The Fury, Winds, Totally Guy, McNum

inspired by the Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes webcomic.

IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU CONTRIBUTED ON THE LIST BUT NOT ON THE LIST OF CONTRIBUTERS LET ME KNOW, I'M HUMAN, I'LL SCREW UP EVENTUALLY

Coidzor
2013-06-18, 01:01 AM
The way of the Paladin:
To Learn
To Seek
To Do

Best in-world written code I've seen to date.

big teej
2013-06-18, 01:35 AM
Best in-world written code I've seen to date.

not quite what I meant...

to clarify, #38 is "when the bad guys start calling dibs on your gear, pray or run."

Bulhakov
2013-06-18, 07:49 AM
You mean things like:

1. Don't be "lawful stupid"
- The world is not black and white; there are greater goods, lesser evils and shades of gray
- Evil does not need to be attacked on sight if patience may lead to defeating even a greater evil
- There are bad laws and evil people exploiting good laws
- Good always takes precedence over lawful

2. Use detect evil generously, but always discretely
- Agree on a secret signal or keyword with your teammates
- Make pausing in thought a mannerism that is common for you and not suspicious

?

SethoMarkus
2013-06-18, 08:09 AM
Are you looking for something more along the line of these?

The Paladin's Companion:

#3 Though you are but a mortal, never underestimate the value of your actions.

#4 Your cause may be just and righteous, but never let arrogance dictate your actions.

#5 There are many unlikely allies in the fight against evil; do not look into your companions histories too closely, lest you walk a lonely path.

Edit: Ninja'd - updated the numbers

hamlet
2013-06-18, 08:27 AM
#6 - Remember that just because it/he/she is evil doesn't present you with free pass to kill it. Murder is still murder even if the victim is a jerk.

#7 - Remember, while you gain points for killing evil things, you gain more for reforming them. You're an example to help lift people up, not smash them under your heel.

geeky_monkey
2013-06-18, 09:24 AM
#8 Various monsters are vunerable to bludgeoning damage - consider removing the rod from your a** and use that to attack them instead.

Seharvepernfan
2013-06-18, 09:40 AM
#8 Various monsters are vunerable to bludgeoning damage - consider removing the rod from your a** and use that to attack them instead.

I'm sure that, by now, it has enough good to bypass DR/evil...

Lord Torath
2013-06-18, 09:45 AM
please note this should be an "in character" handbook, something a paladin could actually receive in game, as such, it should not contain ANY build and/or meta advice.
Not sure geeky_monkey's "8" meets this. Good advice for the player, though.

How about:
#8: When camping outdoors, shake out your boots upside down before putting them on.

Hyena
2013-06-18, 09:46 AM
9. Your allies will spit on your code and act in the most disrespectful way possible to your mission. You are not to react, or you will be left behind.

Drelua
2013-06-18, 09:51 AM
Wow, I just reread Goblins a few days ago. If you watch NCIS, I think you'll agree that this one has to stay. Well, in a slightly different form at least.

#9 - Never go anywhere without a dagger.

Now, let me see if I can turn a speech I had in mind when I was considering playing a Paladin into a rule.

#10 - Do not fear death. So long as you hold true to your morals, the mountains of Celestia wait for you, with a far less pleasant inevitability ahead of your enemies. However, do not throw your life away; you can do far more good in this world by living to fight another day than throwing your life away battling an enemy you cannot defeat.

You should be editing these into the OP so we know how far along we are.

Edit: Ninja'd on #9, but... I'm not sure that counts. A paladin should be able to say something when his morals are being insulted, just as any other character would, so long as he treats them as equals rather than errant children.

jaybird
2013-06-18, 10:13 AM
11: Count to 10. Then count to 20.

big teej
2013-06-18, 11:43 AM
Are you looking for something more along the line of these?

The Paladin's Companion:

#3 Though you are but a mortal, never underestimate the value of your actions.

#4 Your cause may be just and righteous, but never let arrogance dictate your actions.

#5 There are many unlikely allies in the fight against evil; do not look into your companions histories too closely, lest you walk a lonely path.

Edit: Ninja'd - updated the numbers


precisely :smallbiggrin:





You should be editing these into the OP so we know how far along we are.




I'll try and update the OP with the current list every day or so.

as it stands, I have one.

#+1. Throwing yourself into the Fires of Hell won't stop others from burning. (credit to goblins for this one as well)

some guy
2013-06-18, 01:02 PM
As we began with comics, here's one from Oglaf:
13: Be angry about something that doesn't affect you personally.

Bulhakov
2013-06-18, 05:02 PM
I think a lot of the above fall under rule #1

The below could be applied to any melee class (a lot paraphrased from San Tzu):

13 Always have a ranged weapon or spell on hand. Even if it is your weakest attack, it is better than doing nothing.

14 Never fight an archer at range, a fighter up close, or let a caster finish a spell. Fight no one on their own terms.

15 No weapon is as powerful as knowledge of your foe.

16 Always have an escape plan.

17 Always interrogate prisoners separately and compare their stories afterwards

18 Always post sentries in pairs

19 Each day agree on a spot to meet up with your party if it splits up

20 If the enemy retreats, follow carefully it may be a trap.

21 If you must retreat, create a diversion.

22 In enemy territory take the most difficult path, it will be least guarded.

23 When traveling spread out the party so it can't be covered by a single area effect

24 Never attack when or where expected

25 If your enemy has the upper hand (or thinks he does) he will likely speak the truth

26 If the enemy is down, do not trust his words

navar100
2013-06-18, 05:11 PM
9. Your allies will spit on your code and act in the most disrespectful way possible to your mission. You are not to react, or you will be left behind.

With "allies" like that, I'd call this a bonus.

27. You are permitted to have fun.

28. You are permitted to make jokes.

29. You are permitted a drink or two at the tavern.

30. You are permitted some nooky.

31. You are permitted an equal share of all treasure hoards with the party. You decide what to do with it. You are permitted to spend some of it on yourself, such as improving weapon, armor, and helpful magic items.

Janus
2013-06-19, 12:28 PM
32. Look for the good in others. You'll be surprised what you can learn from those that don't follow your path.

33. Going blackguard doesn't serve the Greater Good.

34. When choosing between lying to protect innocents and stabbing the (probably neutral) inquisitor in the face, lie. For the love of all that is good and holy, why would face-stabbing be the higher moral ground in this situation!?

35. If you need a Phylactery of Faithfulness, you are missing the point of being a paladin.

36. Bridle your passions and always keep a maintain a sense of decency and respect. You are a paladin at all times.

37. "I must examine the fine, rustic architecture" is not a valid excuse for allowing Evil to take place.

Hyena
2013-06-19, 03:03 PM
38. You are expected to fall. It's okay. One day or another you will find yourself in one of those impossible to win situations, where you fall no matter what - it's the way cruel universe works. After you fall, don't abandon your cause - you can still do good, even if you are even worse then the fighter now.

Winds
2013-06-19, 03:49 PM
39) You are trained to handle both social work and combat. Detect Evil is a tool to use in both situations, not an excuse to switch between them.

40) You will often work with nonpaladins. This is good. Don't try to limit the skills of that sneak or mage you work with because they aren't paladins. If you try, it will end badly for everyone. They have their skills for a reason, just as you do.

Ionbound
2013-06-19, 04:12 PM
41: Trust your party, they will save your bum more often than they engage in morally questionable behavior.

navar100
2013-06-19, 05:42 PM
38. You are expected to fall. It's okay. One day or another you will find yourself in one of those impossible to win situations, where you fall no matter what - it's the way cruel universe works. After you fall, don't abandon your cause - you can still do good, even if you are even worse then the fighter now.

No. Nothing whatsoever about being a paladin means you will fall.

TuggyNE
2013-06-19, 05:51 PM
35. If you need a Phylactery of Faithfulness, you are missing the point of being a paladin.

Maybe. Maybe not, though.

Hyena
2013-06-19, 06:00 PM
Nothing whatsoever about being a paladin means you will fall.
Of course, it does. You're a guy in the world of shades of grey stuck with black and white code, creators of which either had no idea what in how many ways it could possibly go wrong, or were malevolent.

Janus
2013-06-19, 06:07 PM
Of course, it does. You're a guy in the world of shades of grey stuck with black and white code, creators of which either had no idea what in how many ways it could possibly go wrong, or were malevolent.
I make it a point to avoid campaigns with that particular line of thought.

Scow2
2013-06-19, 06:19 PM
Of course, it does. You're a guy in the world of shades of grey stuck with black and white code, creators of which either had no idea what in how many ways it could possibly go wrong, or were malevolent.
There is no such thing as Grey. Only blends of black and white. The creators knew damn well what they were getting into. Most people are white with a bit of black on them. The paladin's job is to purge the world of that which blackens, not merely greys, it. Terry Prachett's Discworld has a number of quotes on the issue, a lot by Granny Weatherwax. There are also a lot of interesting outlooks for properly playing a Paladin from /tg/.

Being a paladin is not for everyone. There are those who understand how they work, and those who don't. You seem to be of the latter.

Hyena
2013-06-19, 06:53 PM
There is no such thing as Grey.
Suuuure there is not. It's not like we've got three aligments that would be specifically reserved for such a thing. Neutr-something.
I never said that paladin should purge everyone that is not ideally white. I say that when paladin is in situation, that is not entirely black and white, he has no idea what to do and is pretty much doomed, because he not only must be lawful good, but absolutely sinless. Not a single mistake allowed.
Classic setup - the paladin encounters a demon. Not just a demon - but the demon, who rejected his nature and tried his best to defy his urge to do evil - in fact, he've been so succesfull in this, he actually became neutral rather then evil. Paladin can not kill a person, that is not only not evil, but actually tries to be good, because that would be cold blooded murder of an innocent creature. But it's evil to allow this innocent creature to exist. Why? Because he's a fiend, a creature who is literally made of evil. It's says so right there in the Book of Exalted Deeds - it's bad to allow fiends to exist. What you're gonna do now, paladin? You're damned if you kill him, damned if you don't.

Coidzor
2013-06-19, 06:59 PM
There is no such thing as Grey. Only blends of black and white. The creators knew damn well what they were getting into. Most people are white with a bit of black on them. The paladin's job is to purge the world of that which blackens, not merely greys, it. Terry Prachett's Discworld has a number of quotes on the issue, a lot by Granny Weatherwax. There are also a lot of interesting outlooks for properly playing a Paladin from /tg/.

Being a paladin is not for everyone. There are those who understand how they work, and those who don't. You seem to be of the latter.

...They might have known they were creating a roleplaying game with paladins, sure, but we've got ample evidence that they did not think things through in many of the flawed systems where we run into issues with paladins and their execution.

Case in point, that the games aren't straightforward enough that this guide is unnecessary from a tactical standpoint or put together enough that it's unnecessary as guide points to roleplay.


I make it a point to avoid campaigns with that particular line of thought.

You avoid tables that realize the designers aren't perfect? :smallconfused:

I'd prefer to acknowledge the flaws of a system and either accept them or develop a workaround rather than not realize that the flaws are there and then get tripped up by them, personally.

Janus
2013-06-19, 07:25 PM
What you're gonna do now, paladin?
Not be a paladin where a splatbook is considered doctrine.


You avoid tables that realize the designers aren't perfect? :smallconfused:
I was referring to the "paladins should expect to fall" style.

Emmerask
2013-06-19, 08:49 PM
You mean things like:

1. Don't be "lawful stupid"
- The world is not black and white; there are greater goods, lesser evils and shades of gray
- Evil does not need to be attacked on sight if patience may lead to defeating even a greater evil
- There are bad laws and evil people exploiting good laws
- Good always takes precedence over lawful

2. Use detect evil generously, but always discretely


The problem is that the first makes the latter rather useless since if you dont take good and evil as absolute states someone who is just a tiny bit evil would still ping as evil as an evil mastermind.
Since the power of the aura is only dependent on the hd and not how evil someone is this tool becomes rather unreliable.

Coidzor
2013-06-19, 09:38 PM
The problem is that the first makes the latter rather useless since if you dont take good and evil as absolute states someone who is just a tiny bit evil would still ping as evil as an evil mastermind.
Since the power of the aura is only dependent on the hd and not how evil someone is this tool becomes rather unreliable.

Depends on how you rule the evil that lurks in the heart of man, really. Some DMs have "tiny bit evil but still detects as evil" be a thing and others have it as neutral with evil tendencies and others just say no to the entire concept, so that good and evil both are something that deserves the term rather than happenstance.

Which is part of the problem, too much is ephemeral and dependent upon whoever is playing adjudicator.

One Step Two
2013-06-19, 10:24 PM
42: You do not live in a world of Black and White, nor shades of Grey. You live in a world of coloured lights, and you should endavour to make sure that all lights can shine their brightest, stopping those would would extinguish or dim those lights.

Extra_Crispy
2013-06-20, 01:38 AM
Suuuure there is not. It's not like we've got three aligments that would be specifically reserved for such a thing. Neutr-something.
I never said that paladin should purge everyone that is not ideally white. I say that when paladin is in situation, that is not entirely black and white, he has no idea what to do and is pretty much doomed, because he not only must be lawful good, but absolutely sinless. Not a single mistake allowed.
Classic setup - the paladin encounters a demon. Not just a demon - but the demon, who rejected his nature and tried his best to defy his urge to do evil - in fact, he've been so succesfull in this, he actually became neutral rather then evil. Paladin can not kill a person, that is not only not evil, but actually tries to be good, because that would be cold blooded murder of an innocent creature. But it's evil to allow this innocent creature to exist. Why? Because he's a fiend, a creature who is literally made of evil. It's says so right there in the Book of Exalted Deeds - it's bad to allow fiends to exist. What you're gonna do now, paladin? You're damned if you kill him, damned if you don't.

I have played paladins alot and everyone has a different opinion of how they should be played. I feel though that you are wrong in this case. you are not damned if you dont kill him. He was made of evil but is reforming, that is the paladins job, to kill unrepentent evil and help others to do good and reform their evil ways. Killing/destroying evil is can be done with a sword or with words that cause the evil thing to stop doing evil and start doing good. Though it is made of evil it has stopped doing evil and has atleast changed to neutral, as a paladin i feel his job would be to help teach the demon to do good and be a guide for it. After all that would validate everything if he could have a creature that is litterly made of evil become a beacon of good. With that said I probably would not let the demon wonder around on its own, I would have it join me to lead it to good by example and to keep an eye if it decides to go back to evil.

Bulhakov
2013-06-20, 01:52 AM
@Coidzor

Exactly. It basically boils down to GM. So far I've seen two main styles.

Either binary:
Evil pings evil and that's it. You don't know "how evil?". The guy might be a serial murderer or might simply sell you out without thinking twice if the price is right.

Or shades of grey:
Someone may ping as "slightly evil - probably just a selfish jerk or someone who enjoys violence a bit too much" or maybe "very evil - probably likes torturing helpless victims" or "black as midnight evil - likes to eat babies" etc.

Cerlis
2013-06-20, 02:30 AM
Salutations my fellow playgrounders!

on a whim, I decided to start rereading some of my favorite webcomics from the beginning, amongst them is Goblins.

the first comic of which is this
http://www.goblinscomic.org/06262005/

this, in conjunction with a few other things*

made me want to compile a handbook for each class, detailing rules they should follow.

Ideally I'd like to see this "handbook" reach 100 items. but first things first, we need to hit 38 (as 38 has already been provided by the author of goblins)

please note this should be an "in character" handbook, something a paladin could actually receive in game, as such, it should not contain ANY build and/or meta advice.



*those other things being 1) my 1001 bits of adventuring advice thread from waaaaaaaaaaaaay back. and 2) one of my players is modeling a character quirk off of NCIS special agent gibbs (i.e. rules)


my first though is literally "I hope this doesn't devolve into yet another Things I May No Longer Do While Playing IV: The Decanter of Endless Bad Ideas. Cus we dont need another one"

hamishspence
2013-06-20, 07:29 AM
It's says so right there in the Book of Exalted Deeds - it's bad to allow fiends to exist.

Actually it's BoVD that says that. BoED just says "best slain, or at least banished- and only a naive fool would try and convert them"

But when a naive fool has succeeded- I figure that's evidence that BoVD's statement should not be taken too literally.

hamlet
2013-06-20, 07:52 AM
Actually it's BoVD that says that. BoED just says "best slain, or at least banished- and only a naive fool would try and convert them"

But when a naive fool has succeeded- I figure that's evidence that BoVD's statement should not be taken too literally.

Those two books, and a great many other folks, have the moral depth and perception of a puddle in the street. I wouldn't exactly use them as guidelines for anything involving alignment.

SethoMarkus
2013-06-20, 08:01 AM
This isn't a thread about why or when a paladin should fall, rather a thread about in-character advice one Paladin can give to another in the form of a book. Please keep on topic.

Emmerask
2013-06-20, 09:48 AM
@Coidzor

Exactly. It basically boils down to GM. So far I've seen two main styles.

Either binary:
Evil pings evil and that's it. You don't know "how evil?". The guy might be a serial murderer or might simply sell you out without thinking twice if the price is right.

Or shades of grey:
Someone may ping as "slightly evil - probably just a selfish jerk or someone who enjoys violence a bit too much" or maybe "very evil - probably likes torturing helpless victims" or "black as midnight evil - likes to eat babies" etc.

The shades of grey variant however is a houserule, granted a good one imo:smallsmile:

Coidzor
2013-06-20, 10:17 AM
@Coidzor

Exactly. It basically boils down to GM. So far I've seen two main styles.

Either binary:
Evil pings evil and that's it. You don't know "how evil?". The guy might be a serial murderer or might simply sell you out without thinking twice if the price is right.

Or shades of grey:
Someone may ping as "slightly evil - probably just a selfish jerk or someone who enjoys violence a bit too much" or maybe "very evil - probably likes torturing helpless victims" or "black as midnight evil - likes to eat babies" etc.

Well, there's also the one where they'll have a **** ping as evil vs. the one where if they ping as Evil, they're Evil. Might not be EVIL but they've got at least one capital letter.

Lord Torath
2013-06-20, 11:09 AM
Let's not forget 38:

38: When the Minions of Evil start calling dibs on your gear, pray or run.

(Sorry, Hyena, we'll need to replace your "Expect to Fall" rule with this one. In keeping with the OP's wishes.)

43: Feed your Iron Spikes to the Rust Monster. Not your armor.

Edit: or maybe

43: Carry both Iron Rations and Iron Spikes.

Scow2
2013-06-20, 11:35 AM
Suuuure there is not. It's not like we've got three aligments that would be specifically reserved for such a thing. Neutr-something.
I never said that paladin should purge everyone that is not ideally white. I say that when paladin is in situation, that is not entirely black and white, he has no idea what to do and is pretty much doomed, because he not only must be lawful good, but absolutely sinless. Not a single mistake allowed.
Classic setup - the paladin encounters a demon. Not just a demon - but the demon, who rejected his nature and tried his best to defy his urge to do evil - in fact, he've been so succesfull in this, he actually became neutral rather then evil. Paladin can not kill a person, that is not only not evil, but actually tries to be good, because that would be cold blooded murder of an innocent creature. But it's evil to allow this innocent creature to exist. Why? Because he's a fiend, a creature who is literally made of evil. It's says so right there in the Book of Exalted Deeds - it's bad to allow fiends to exist. What you're gonna do now, paladin? You're damned if you kill him, damned if you don't.Fiends are Evil by definition. If it is not Evil, it is Not A Fiend. It is a Not-Fiend, and thus not on the onus of the Paladin to destroy.


And... seriously, guys, Aura Strength is a thing. In fact, you don't know who is evil (Or where the Evil Aura is) until after you know how strong it is: Round1 is presence or absence of Evil in an area. Round 2 is strength of those auras - KO if you're too weak in a too-strong area. Only in Round3 can you Pinpoint the Evil Aura's location.

Unfortunately, it's tied to HD (Which would have worked in previous editions, where Alignment changes resulted in Level Loss), not magnitude of evil - but that can be easily fixed by a canny DM.

big teej
2013-06-20, 01:18 PM
guys, please remain on topic, this is not a debate thread concerning the paladin's code, viability, or when/if a paladin should fall etc.

this is meant to be an in-game, in-character handbook a paladin might receive upon acquiring the title.

on a related note, I begin work on keeping the OP updated today. :smalltongue:

Toofey
2013-06-20, 03:18 PM
There's a thing I think most of us know called the "Code of Thundera"

Truth
Justice
Honor
Loyalty
(mercy, I tack this one on the end because for some reason when playing a game people tend to forget it)

Generally, I would consider cheasy 80s/90s cartoons when figuring this out as many of them have moderately clear and executable moral frameworks. Thundercats, Transformers, Batman TAS, etc... and they're good common references.

big teej
2013-06-20, 06:06 PM
Original Post has been updated to reflect our progress and our contributors.

Hannibal
2013-06-20, 06:46 PM
42: You do not live in a world of Black and White, nor shades of Grey. You live in a world of coloured lights, and you should endavour to make sure that all lights can shine their brightest, stopping those would would extinguish or dim those lights.

That's a good one, I just might use that.

Winter_Wolf
2013-06-20, 07:16 PM
I don't have an actual addition to the list, but I do want to say that I fully support the building of a "practical paladin guide". Not to be confused with pragmatic, since I'm pretty sure that's not what paladins are about.

Just giving my hopes that this project succeeds (as one who dislikes the paladin class) and would really like to have a "generally agreed upon" reference to give to prospective players, i.e. "this is how you can be a paladin in this campaign and succeed." I look forward to the end product/workable draft. :smallsmile:

navar100
2013-06-20, 08:44 PM
#44: Don't be attached to your weapon or armor. If a better one comes along, use it.

#45: You and the PC rogue can get along and be best friends. You're both responsible and capable of making this happen. You are not inherently adversaries.

Janus
2013-06-20, 11:40 PM
#45: You and the PC rogue can get along and be best friends. You're both responsible and capable of making this happen. You are not inherently adversaries.
I remember a thread that suggested a Buddy Cop comedy with a rogue and a paladin.
"You're a loose cannon, Rogue, but you're the best dang cop I've ever worked with!"

big teej
2013-06-21, 12:13 AM
do I have a volunteer who wants to go through OOTS and see if they can find any good paladin quotes?

do I have a separate volunteer who would dig through Goblins and see if Big Ears or Thaco have any other good lines?

do I have a third volunteer willing to hop about through looking for group?

:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: #46. Those who fear The Darkness have not seen what The Light can do... Illuminate them.

Mr. Mask
2013-06-21, 01:00 AM
"It is with the patience of our Radiant Sun that I remind my esteemed, eager children, that every person in this world has a place. Some are - as you are quick to assume - of those harmful and deviant roles, set about by our arch foe. Vagrant robbers, idle trickster parasites, as well as the murderous wolves of the dens and of the wilds. But remember those roles fulfilling and wholesome, even though outside our calling. These people ,be they butcher, baker or furniture maker, are key to the well being of many around them, the survival of communities the honest and good people we protect. Therefore, have care and consider deeply on these roles when you sense evil in a man's heart. For, so long as their heart is their own - and is not free to ply and those wicked roles you are so wishful to meet - their heart can harm only their own wicked selves."

BoutsofInsanity
2013-06-21, 01:21 AM
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Paladin check out both quotes and powder keg of justice. Good stuff.

forget what number we are on...

X. Know what god you follow, and correctly adhere to their ideals. St. Cuthburt means you can coup de grace evil enemies, Pelor means you give them every chance to turn away.

Y. Heroic charges are not always necessary. Yes it looks epic when you scream your challenge and run up the hill. But those evil gnomes are packing ballista and you can't match fire power of that magnitude.

Z. Sneaky challenges are the best way to succeed. Wait till nightfall, sneak into the enemy camp, then put on your armor while they are sleeping. (Oil it). Then announce in a loud voice while having your squire play your trumpet really loud your challenge. Then begin smiting.

A. Clerics are your superior. Don't piss them off.

B. Even though you have been told you can take on demons, and it is your job, you cannot. Rather, go get a bunch of bounties, sell your gear, then hire a wizard to do it for you.

C.The Paladins knock is an excellent way to get into a room if you don't want to lock pick it. Simply knock on the door, then knock unconcious the opener (for his safety and glory of Kord) and proceed inside to rescue the princess.

D. Tiny cute critters that follow you are either familiars of elves or druids, or they are shape shifting evil creatures in disguise.

Drelua
2013-06-21, 03:00 AM
Well, my favourite Paladin quote comes from a cheesy 80s or 90s cartoon movie called Flight of Dragons. I don't even have to check, I've got it memorized.
"Blade with whom I have lived, blade with whom I now die, serve right and justice one last time, seek one last heart of evil, still one last life of pain. Cut well old friend, and then farewell."

The first half sort of fits into the rule I gave before, but I really like the 'one last life of pain' bit. Makes it sound like Evil people are in pain, not to be hated but pitied. So how's this for a rule?

Do not hate those with evil in their hearts, for theirs is a life of pain. Aid them when possible, lead them to a better life whenever possible. Show them to a life of goodness if you can, but do not harm or threaten them without reason to believe they might be a danger to others. Having the taint of evil within their heart is not a punishable act.

I feel like maybe that should be two separate rules, what do you think?

Bulhakov
2013-06-21, 05:40 AM
Oglaf is a (usually)NSFW webcomic, the quote was from this episode: http://oglaf.com/laridae/
I recommend you read from all the comics, especially the cumsprite arch is hilarious. (also be careful to look on the right if the current story has an "epilogue" link, as some are easy to miss if you keep clicking "next page" )

Another good quote from a webcomic:
http://diggercomic.com/?p=292

ďDonít hurt people if you can avoid it. Donít steal stuff
unless youíre starving or itís really, really important.
Work hard. Pay your bills. Try to help others. Always
double-check your math if there are explosives involved.
If you screwed it up, you need to see it gets fixed.
And donít eat anything that talks.
If it doesnít fall under one of those categories, just do
the best you can.ď
Ė Digger, from Digger by Ursula Vernon

Further rule proposals:
- Remember you're better than everyone else. But this does not mean you should look down on others, they should look up to you.
- You can't hold everyone up to your standard. Other people are allowed flaws and weaknesses, you're not, or your deity will abandon you.

SmartAlec
2013-06-22, 11:59 AM
Have started to use the oath from the crusades movie Kingdom of Heaven as a Paladin code:


Be without fear in the face of your enemies;
Be brave and upright, that God may love thee;
Speak the truth, always, even if it leads to your death;
Safeguard the helpless, and do no wrong.

Felt that covered all the bases.

Coidzor
2013-06-22, 12:41 PM
Further rule proposals:
- Remember you're better than everyone else. But this does not mean you should look down on others, they should look up to you.

- You can't hold everyone up to your standard. Other people are allowed flaws and weaknesses, you're not, or your deity will abandon you.

Pride Goeth before a Fall. Pride clouds your judgment, it leads to devaluing others in ways you cannot even be aware of, it erodes one's moral core and exposes weaknesses for the Darkness within and without to exploit. Worst of all, Pride leads to the false belief of always knowing better than others what is good for them and eventually to Tyranny.

Memento Mori. You are mortal, and no matter how bright or shining an example you may become to others, never forget that but for grace you would be just as laid low by your flawed nature as others. From this base comes Compassion and Humility, which guard the gates that Wrath and Cruelty would breach, that stop up the wellspring from which Pride springs forth in any creature.

The truest measure of a Paladin is not in the outward slaying of foul beasts, as necessary as it so often is, but in the constant inner battle against the Self, to resist the base urges and vices that all possess and in so doing serve as an example and inspiration to others in the struggle along the path to being better than what we are. The ultimate test of a Paladin is not in perfection, some inhuman creature that feels no temptation, has no flaws but goes around judging others and slaughtering evil, but in our imperfection, of getting up when we've fallen and pressing on, of admitting we can and do make mistakes and making them right when we can, of constantly seeking, learning, and doing the right thing rather than take the easy way out, even when the easy way would offer no rebuke or reproach.

tl;dr: Paladins aren't perfect. They're imperfect beings trying to be better than they are and serve as an example, inspiration, and aid to others who would follow.

Bulhakov
2013-06-22, 03:37 PM
Good critique on my 2 points Coidzor

I was going for some sort of pride + humility mix in those two rules and added a bit too much pride ;)


- Striving for perfection does not make you perfect. Others may make wiser choices or plans than you, or even spot your mistakes. Be humble and thank them for it.

big teej
2013-06-23, 10:15 PM
come now my compatriots in the playround, surely we have more to offer than this?

Kane0
2013-06-23, 11:54 PM
This is some good stuff, I've nabbed a bunch of these for a friend who wants to play a paladin in our next game.

Most of this here is taken directly from the OP, some is paraphrased and some I added in.

Being Lawful and Good
Don't be stupid and donít be naive.
- The world is not black and white. There are such things as greater goods, lesser evils and shades of grey.
- Evil does not need to be attacked on sight if patience may lead to defeating even a greater evil
- There is such a thing as bad laws and evil people exploiting good laws
- Good always takes precedence over law
- Deception is neither inherently evil nor unlawful. Misuse of deception is.

There is a difference between giving your life in the defense of others or a cause greater than yourself, and throwing your life away in a fight you cannot win. "Throwing yourself into the Fires of Hell won't stop others from burning."
Do not fear death. So long as you hold true to your morals, the mountains of Celestia wait for you, with a far less pleasant inevitability ahead of your enemies. However, do not throw your life away; you can do far more good by living to fight another day than throwing your life away battling an enemy you cannot defeat.

Remember that just because it/he/she is evil doesn't present you with free pass to kill it. Murder is still murder.

Justification does not make a wrong right.

Going blackguard does not serve the Greater Good.

Remember, while you can kill evil things, you gain more for reforming them. You're an example to help lift people up, not crush them under your heel.

When choosing between lying to protect innocents and stabbing the inquisitor in the face, choose to lie. For the love of all that is good and holy, why would face-stabbing be the higher moral ground in this situation!?

You are expected to fail and/or fall. It's okay. One day or another you will encounter a no-win situation - it's the universeís cruel test. Pick yourself up and dust yourself off - you can still do good.

Social
Use detect evil discretely
- Agree on a signal or keyword with your teammates for its use
- Devise some mannerism that allows you to detect evil without arousing suspicion, such as pausing for thought.

You are trained to handle both social work and combat. Detect Evil is a tool to use in both situations, not an excuse to switch between them.

Look for the good in others. You'll be surprised what you can learn from those that don't follow your path.

Be patient. Count to 10. If that does not work, continue to 20. After 20, take reasonable action.

You shalt not become arrogant, despite the cause or righteousness.

Bridle your passions and always maintain a sense of decency and respect. You are a paladin at all times. Yes, even then.

You are permitted to have fun.

You are permitted to make jokes.

You are permitted a fair share of all profits you make. You decide what to do with it. Spend responsibly.

You are permitted a drink or two at the tavern. Consume responsibly.

You are permitted to experience the finer things in life. Enjoy responsibly.

Companions
You will often work with non-paladins. This is good. Don't try to limit the skills of those you work with because they are not Paladins. If you try, it will end badly for all involved. They have their skills for a reason, just as you do.

There are many unlikely allies in the fight against evil; do not look into your companions histories too closely, lest you walk a lonely path.

Learn to trust your party, they will save your ass more often than they engage in morally questionable behavior.

big teej
2013-06-24, 01:37 AM
This is some good stuff, I've nabbed a bunch of these for a friend who wants to play a paladin in our next game.

Most of this here is taken directly from the OP, some is paraphrased and some I added in.

Being Lawful and Good
Don't be stupid and donít be naive.
- The world is not black and white. There are such things as greater goods, lesser evils and shades of grey.
- Evil does not need to be attacked on sight if patience may lead to defeating even a greater evil
- There is such a thing as bad laws and evil people exploiting good laws
- Good always takes precedence over law
- Deception is neither inherently evil nor unlawful. Misuse of deception is.

There is a difference between giving your life in the defense of others or a cause greater than yourself, and throwing your life away in a fight you cannot win. "Throwing yourself into the Fires of Hell won't stop others from burning."
Do not fear death. So long as you hold true to your morals, the mountains of Celestia wait for you, with a far less pleasant inevitability ahead of your enemies. However, do not throw your life away; you can do far more good by living to fight another day than throwing your life away battling an enemy you cannot defeat.

Remember that just because it/he/she is evil doesn't present you with free pass to kill it. Murder is still murder.

Justification does not make a wrong right.

Going blackguard does not serve the Greater Good.

Remember, while you can kill evil things, you gain more for reforming them. You're an example to help lift people up, not crush them under your heel.

When choosing between lying to protect innocents and stabbing the inquisitor in the face, choose to lie. For the love of all that is good and holy, why would face-stabbing be the higher moral ground in this situation!?

You are expected to fail and/or fall. It's okay. One day or another you will encounter a no-win situation - it's the universeís cruel test. Pick yourself up and dust yourself off - you can still do good.

Social
Use detect evil discretely
- Agree on a signal or keyword with your teammates for its use
- Devise some mannerism that allows you to detect evil without arousing suspicion, such as pausing for thought.

You are trained to handle both social work and combat. Detect Evil is a tool to use in both situations, not an excuse to switch between them.

Look for the good in others. You'll be surprised what you can learn from those that don't follow your path.

Be patient. Count to 10. If that does not work, continue to 20. After 20, take reasonable action.

You shalt not become arrogant, despite the cause or righteousness.

Bridle your passions and always maintain a sense of decency and respect. You are a paladin at all times. Yes, even then.

You are permitted to have fun.

You are permitted to make jokes.

You are permitted a fair share of all profits you make. You decide what to do with it. Spend responsibly.

You are permitted a drink or two at the tavern. Consume responsibly.

You are permitted to experience the finer things in life. Enjoy responsibly.

Companions
You will often work with non-paladins. This is good. Don't try to limit the skills of those you work with because they are not Paladins. If you try, it will end badly for all involved. They have their skills for a reason, just as you do.

There are many unlikely allies in the fight against evil; do not look into your companions histories too closely, lest you walk a lonely path.

Learn to trust your party, they will save your ass more often than they engage in morally questionable behavior.



uhm.... dude?

why would you paraphrase/reuse the original post when it's a compilation of what the thread has accumulated so far... and the goal of the thread is to hit at least 100 items? :smallconfused:

having a list that says
1. don't set things on fire.
2. the gnome is not for eating.
3. don't set things on fire.

is a list of two things, not 3.

Aux-Ash
2013-06-24, 04:54 AM
Might I suggest:

"Do not save the One over the Many. You try to save the One and then you try to save the Many. If you accept that you have to choose one over the other, you have already failed."

Kane0
2013-06-24, 06:24 AM
uhm.... dude?

why would you paraphrase/reuse the original post when it's a compilation of what the thread has accumulated so far... and the goal of the thread is to hit at least 100 items? :smallconfused:


It wasnt a contribution, which was why it was spoilered. I was noting that i was going to use it just in case anyone objected and putting forward a general thumbs up.

But now to add some:
- appropriate force is available to you to use, but it is not for you to decide what is appropriate. To be safe, use the minimal possible force and let others decide whether it was appropriate.
- you do not always have to actively lead others. Sometimes you do more good while not in the spotlight
- If you feel the urge to justify your actions, it would be wiser to repent instead.

The Fury
2013-06-24, 03:24 PM
I seem to recall a paladin-ish quote on strength and how it should be used.

"Even a weak man can push someone to the ground. But lifting someone up again... that requires real strength."

Bulhakov
2013-06-24, 04:37 PM
I see 27 is missing from the list in the first post. I suggest a write-in fitting to the neighboring rules:

27. Allowing the torturing of prisoners is an abomination against your code. Letting a prisoner believe you'll look the other way is not.


Two more rules quoted/paraphrased from Sun Tzu:

- Plan your battles patiently. Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.

- The more blood and sweat on the training grounds, the less on the battlefield.

Also a good reminder:

- A paladin does not choose his deity, a deity chooses its paladins.

Hyena
2013-06-24, 04:39 PM
- A paladin does not choose his deity, a deity chooses its paladins.
Uh, no. No, he does not. It actually works backwards.

- When confronted with choice between your deity and justice, choose justice without a second of doubt.

Lord Torath
2013-06-24, 05:11 PM
- A paladin does not choose his deity, a deity chooses its paladins.Depends on the setting/DM. I tend to go with this arrangement, but since you can be a paladin of an ideal according to the recent rulesets, this is not a hard-and-fast rule.

Janus
2013-06-24, 05:16 PM
@Hyena
Eh, depends on how your campaign runs deities. I generally take a "____ Good deities understand Good better than you" approach.

@Kane0
I like your list. I'm still not big on the "expect to fall" attitude because I think a fall should occur as the result of an Evil act (note the big E) or a series of infractions, and "expect to fall" kinda tells me, "Plan on committing Evil one day, but don't worry, you can repent."

Adding to the list-

-The paladin's code is a guardrail, not a prisoner's restraint. Your purpose as a paladin is to perform the greatest good.

-Learn to trust yourself, your cause/deity (setting specific), and you will be a more effective paladin.

-You are not pure enough to redeem a succubus with your intimacy.


And last, but not least:
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/175/8/8/paladin_beard__by_janus3003-d6agssz.jpg
http://janus3003.deviantart.com/art/Paladin-BEARD-380377043
-"Paladin BEARD" is always a valid argument. :smallbiggrin:

big teej
2013-06-24, 09:21 PM
I see 27 is missing from the list in the first post. I suggest a write-in fitting to the neighboring rules:


:smallconfused:
*checks list&

heh. so it is. :smallredface:

I'll fix the numbering when I update the list again.



if I may suggest to those contributing....

we're getting a lot of the high-handed idealistic stuff, I think this guide should have an equal mix of that and very mundane things.... the 'shake your boots out' and 'rule 38' are prime examples of this.

Winds
2013-06-24, 09:31 PM
-Remember to take care of your gear. Rust won't help you make an impression, not does it help your armor shed a strike.

Janus
2013-06-24, 09:49 PM
-Don't eat beans or broccoli before training, otherwise you'll make a lot of enemies.

SethoMarkus
2013-06-25, 08:34 AM
(Just a random guess at the number)

65. Carry a comb and a razor at all times. Wash your face each morning, and cleanse yourself in a river after every major battle. Remember, you are supposed to be a role model. Look like one.

Totally Guy
2013-06-25, 09:55 AM
You choose not to be a paladin once. To choose to be a paladin you have choose to be so every single moment.

big teej
2013-06-26, 02:06 PM
keep the good stuff rolling in guys :smallbiggrin:

I'm going to try and get the OP re-updated later today

McNum
2013-06-26, 02:48 PM
I got a few.

X. Bring rope. It has many uses, and when you need one, but don't have it, you'll miss it dearly.

X. Like rope, a cape has many uses. But you may want to make it easy to detach in case someone tries to grab it in a fight or it gets stuck in a trap.

X. If people wish to celebrate your victories, you are allowed to take part in the celebrations. People like it when their heroes are approachable.

X. Remember to rest. Unless you are on an urgent quest, give your body and mind time to recover so you may face danger at your best when it comes. Evil does not hold back just because you are tired.

X. Being loud and theatrical does have its time, but remember to have a backup plan when the dragon isn't impressed by it.

X. Give a man a fish and he is fed for a day. Teach a man to fish and he is fed for life. The same applies to doing good. Teach by example.

X. When you need to kill someone, be swift and efficient. Don't drag it out and cause undue pain and suffering.

That's about all I can think of for now.

big teej
2013-06-26, 05:36 PM
OP has been updated to reflect new contributions, please ensure that your name is included on the list of contributors if one of yours is on the list.


on a related note:




can we try this one again without using game terms? I like it, but I'm trying to maintain an IC tone to the entire handbook.


[QUOTE=Mr. Mask;15474263]"It is with the patience of our Radiant Sun that I remind my esteemed, eager children, that every person in this world has a place. Some are - as you are quick to assume - of those harmful and deviant roles, set about by our arch foe. Vagrant robbers, idle trickster parasites, as well as the murderous wolves of the dens and of the wilds. But remember those roles fulfilling and wholesome, even though outside our calling. These people ,be they butcher, baker or furniture maker, are key to the well being of many around them, the survival of communities the honest and good people we protect. Therefore, have care and consider deeply on these roles when you sense evil in a man's heart. For, so long as their heart is their own - and is not free to ply and those wicked roles you are so wishful to meet - their heart can harm only their own wicked selves."


I like this. alot but it feels more like a sermon or a lecture rather than something in a paladin's handbook, could we streamline this a bit?




Do not hate those with evil in their hearts, for theirs is a life of pain. Aid them when possible, lead them to a better life whenever possible. Show them to a life of goodness if you can, but do not harm or threaten them without reason to believe they might be a danger to others. Having the taint of evil within their heart is not a punishable act.

I feel like maybe that should be two separate rules, what do you think?

I think if you can split this into two stand-alone rules it'd work better, otherwise it kinda suffers from the 'sermon' vibe like the previous quote.

[QUOTE=Coidzor;15482247]Pride Goeth before a Fall. Pride clouds your judgment, it leads to devaluing others in ways you cannot even be aware of, it erodes one's moral core and exposes weaknesses for the Darkness within and without to exploit. Worst of all, Pride leads to the false belief of always knowing better than others what is good for them and eventually to Tyranny.

Memento Mori. You are mortal, and no matter how bright or shining an example you may become to others, never forget that but for grace you would be just as laid low by your flawed nature as others. From this base comes Compassion and Humility, which guard the gates that Wrath and Cruelty would breach, that stop up the wellspring from which Pride springs forth in any creature.

The truest measure of a Paladin is not in the outward slaying of foul beasts, as necessary as it so often is, but in the constant inner battle against the Self, to resist the base urges and vices that all possess and in so doing serve as an example and inspiration to others in the struggle along the path to being better than what we are. The ultimate test of a Paladin is not in perfection, some inhuman creature that feels no temptation, has no flaws but goes around judging others and slaughtering evil, but in our imperfection, of getting up when we've fallen and pressing on, of admitting we can and do make mistakes and making them right when we can, of constantly seeking, learning, and doing the right thing rather than take the easy way out, even when the easy way would offer no rebuke or reproach.

QUOTE]

I *love* this.... but it still suffers from that sermon feel.

I would like to state for the record[B] there is NOTHING wrong with these sermon-feeling things, I love them, and will likely use them in some form... I just don't think something that long should be in a handbook of what are essentially 1 - 3 liners of conduct and advice. both specific to paladins and generic.

also, I would like to point out that I am taking a little bit of creative license with some wording, if you see something of yours that I've tweaked and want it changed back, let me know.

[B]Last as of this update the current last number is 86. proceed accordingly please.

TuggyNE
2013-06-26, 07:26 PM
but it feels more like a sermon or a lecture rather than something in a paladin's handbook

I'm honestly not sure what's so weird about having a sermon in a paladin handbook. Isn't that basically what it is, a set of bite-sized homilies?

big teej
2013-06-26, 07:50 PM
I'm honestly not sure what's so weird about having a sermon in a paladin handbook. Isn't that basically what it is, a set of bite-sized homilies?

point.

I suppose a better way of saying it is that it feels off, to me at least, to have the sermons interspersed with 1 liners

TuggyNE
2013-06-26, 10:29 PM
point.

I suppose a better way of saying it is that it feels off, to me at least, to have the sermons interspersed with 1 liners

Might be a good idea to have two major sections, one with longer philosophical advice, and another with quick hints.

Coidzor
2013-06-26, 11:36 PM
on a related note:

can we try this one again without using game terms? I like it, but I'm trying to maintain an IC tone to the entire handbook.

Hmm... Maybe to stress not to disregard those whose weapons are guile and cunning, that nimble fingers and light feet can save on needless bloodshed, and those who do not follow a code of honor may yet be one's best and truest allies? Exact wording is escaping me right now. Possibly one about looking out for one's comrades, but not mistaking one's self for their mother or gaoler, partners and fellows being different from those who are true subordinates.



Pride Goeth before a Fall. Pride clouds your judgment, it leads to devaluing others in ways you cannot even be aware of, it erodes one's moral core and exposes weaknesses for the Darkness within and without to exploit. Worst of all, Pride leads to the false belief of always knowing better than others what is good for them and eventually to Tyranny.

Memento Mori. You are mortal, and no matter how bright or shining an example you may become to others, never forget that but for grace you would be just as laid low by your flawed nature as others. From this base comes Compassion and Humility, which guard the gates that Wrath and Cruelty would breach, that stop up the wellspring from which Pride springs forth in any creature.

The truest measure of a Paladin is not in the outward slaying of foul beasts, as necessary as it so often is, but in the constant inner battle against the Self, to resist the base urges and vices that all possess and in so doing serve as an example and inspiration to others in the struggle along the path to being better than what we are. The ultimate test of a Paladin is not in perfection, some inhuman creature that feels no temptation, has no flaws but goes around judging others and slaughtering evil, but in our imperfection, of getting up when we've fallen and pressing on, of admitting we can and do make mistakes and making them right when we can, of constantly seeking, learning, and doing the right thing rather than take the easy way out, even when the easy way would offer no rebuke or reproach.

I *love* this.... but it still suffers from that sermon feel.

I would like to state for the record[B] there is NOTHING wrong with these sermon-feeling things, I love them, and will likely use them in some form... I just don't think something that long should be in a handbook of what are essentially 1 - 3 liners of conduct and advice. both specific to paladins and generic.

also, I would like to point out that I am taking a little bit of creative license with some wording, if you see something of yours that I've tweaked and want it changed back, let me know.

[B]Last as of this update the current last number is 86. proceed accordingly please.

Thank you very much. I just started winging it though. :smallredface:

Well, I wasn't intending it to actually be used, necessarily. And certainly not without some pruning and editing if it were. So no worries there. Was mostly just being a butt and taking inspiration from the tone of what I was responding to.

Darn. That high already? :smalleek:

Edit: That bit about not hating those with evil in their hearts reminds me of something actually. It may have been mentioned by now, but I was just reminded of a certain line (http://youtu.be/oZ4pxURy5-I?t=1m2s) from Princess Mononoke about seeing with eyes unclouded by hate. The full admonition doesn't quite work, but...

big teej
2013-06-27, 01:20 AM
Might be a good idea to have two major sections, one with longer philosophical advice, and another with quick hints.

actually I was planning on using them separately, I like to use props whenever I have the time to make them, and I amongst my favorite things to provide for the party in-game are books and notes and whatnot (likely because I enjoy writing and they're relatively easy props to produce)

Players at my table inevitabley acquire:
1. "1001 pieces of Adventuring Advice" (which is actually 856.... we stalled out there.)
and
2. "A Practical Guide to Monsters" which is actually a dnd book... written from an IC perspective... it's nifty, even if it doesn't have an entire monster manual's worth of critters in it.

I was thinking of using the 'sermony' ones as the compiled works of *NPC who doesn't exist yet* or something like that... or maybe actually use it whenever they run into a cleric giving a sermon.

I dunno...



Darn. That high already? :smalleek:


by my count yes.... that's something I'm open to people checking...

but yea that's what I counted between some of the one's I omitted and some of the ones I felt could be broken into smaller statements.

Drelua
2013-06-27, 07:43 AM
I think if you can split this into two stand-alone rules it'd work better, otherwise it kinda suffers from the 'sermon' vibe like the previous quote.

Yeah, I thought so but I hadn't thought of it until the whole thing was in front of me, and I didn't feel like separating it out into two rules right then. Now that I think about it, I don't really like hate either since that seems like something Paladins would avoid altogether. I'll see if I can make that into two better rules.

-Do not punish those with evil in their hearts, for theirs is a life of pain. Instead you should treat evil as you would an illness, knowing that it causes pain to the victim more than any other. It is a thing that must be treated with kindness.

-Violence is a thing to be used as nothing more than a last resort, to prevent greater pain from being inflicted on the innocent when no other means will suffice.

Now the second one feels a bit superfluous. I feel like I fit most of it into the first rule more cleanly this time, so it can stand alone. I also feel like it might have been said already, so maybe you should just leave it out.

Oh, and a possible final rule for your 1001 Pieces of Practical Adventuring Advice; 'don't set your sights too high. 1001 is a lot.' :smallbiggrin:

Agrippa
2013-06-27, 10:28 AM
-He who does not punish evil commands it to be done. If you witness creulty and oppression you must put an end to it. Even if such evil acts are commited by a "friend" of yours. The transgressor must also be taken to task for his or her behavior. This extends to not "taking in the sights" while your buddies are commiting torture or similarly vile acts.

big teej
2013-06-27, 12:19 PM
Oh, and a possible final rule for your 1001 Pieces of Practical Adventuring Advice; 'don't set your sights too high. 1001 is a lot.' :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if the thread is still up (it's back from near when I first joined)

but I remember us getting pretty high... I mean heck, it's 856 and that's after I trimmed it down to "in character" advice like I did with this thread.... who knows how high it actually got (I cause I certainly don't remember :smallredface: )

Arkhosia
2013-06-28, 03:38 AM
86: As long as you use it for the greater Good (and it doesn't do more hurt than needed), any power is allowed.

big teej
2013-06-30, 04:15 PM
come on guys and gals

WE'RE ALMOST THERE!!!

Bulhakov
2013-06-30, 06:08 PM
These might fall into the category of generic adventuring advice:

87 - Think of creative uses of your equipment:
Sword scabbard:
- if properly reinforced can double as a club
- can be modified to store a few scrolls
Shield
- keep it polished - there are many uses for a mirror
- if stealth is needed, blacken it with soot
- can be easily modified to store wands
- can be used as a sled
Cape
- useful to put out fires
- you can obscure an enemy's vision with it

88 There's a lot of mundane equipment that can turn out extremely useful:
Rope
Crowbar
Small shovel (better yet, a well-made entrenchment tool that can double as a hatchet, saw and grappling hook)
Chalk


I'm also thinking which parts of this thread about shields could be changed to in-game advice:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630

Lord Torath
2013-06-30, 08:40 PM
#7 - Remember, while you gain points for killing evil things, you gain more for reforming them. You're an example to help lift people up, not smash them under your heel.This seems kind of meta-gamey. Can we reword it to remove the "get points" bit?

big teej
2013-06-30, 08:57 PM
This seems kind of meta-gamey. Can we reword it to remove the "get points" bit?

good catch. I missed it. too much M*A*S*H :smalltongue:

Janus
2013-07-01, 11:09 AM
This seems kind of meta-gamey. Can we reword it to remove the "get points" bit?
But surely all campaigns recognize the validity of kudos and brownie points! :smalltongue:

Mark Hall
2013-07-03, 02:31 AM
ďKeep faith. Trust to love. Fight with honor. But, fight to win."

Wonder Woman (written by Gail Simone)

hamlet
2013-07-03, 07:50 AM
All evil needs to thrive is for good men to stand by and do nothing.

Janus
2013-07-08, 06:19 PM
-Babies cannot commit Evil. They are babies.

-A paladin should not keep slaves.
--This includes sex slaves.
---If you're already keeping sex slaves, pimping them is an act unworthy of a paladin.

*OOC note- Yep, that apparently happened in some EverQuest roleplaying server. :smallsigh:

-If you use the sharp edge of a cutting weapon against plate armor, don't come crying to your master when your weapon breaks.

-Brush your teeth. Use some sort of deodorant. A smelly paladin is a despised paladin.

-Look for small ways to serve others, but be sure to let others do the same for you. Service brings warm fuzzies. Don't hog them all.

-Eat a balanced diet.

-Spar with a variety of opponents with and against a variety of weapons.

-You are never "too dangerous" to spar.

-On the odd chance that you indeed are "too dangerous" to spar, it's because you need to learn to control your attacks. Learn it before you maim a friend.

-Respect tradition, but don't be afraid to try new things.

big teej
2013-07-11, 09:35 PM
my apologies for letting this languish, I haven't been receiving update emails lately and forgot to check back....


I think we're getting really close
COME ON GUYS WE'RE ALMOST THERE

I'll try and update the OP tomorrow