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View Full Version : Here's an idea: Positive/Negative balance casting.



AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-20, 04:02 PM
Whenever I have an idea for some homebrew, I like to post a thread asking for comments on the idea itself before taking the time to write up an entire class, magic system, spell line, or whatever I make. I find that when I can get very early feedback, it helps focus my ideas. I also like to work with other people to bounce ideas off each other and iterate.

Everyone has their own things they dislike about vancian casting. Some can't stand arbitrary spell levels, some loathe the imbalance created by spell flexibility, and some don't like prepared spells. But what I don't like about the standard casting mechanic is the "spells per day" system. A caster shouldn't be able to throw out their most powerful, earth-shaking spells all day, every day, but saying "you can cast X spells of this level and Y spells of that level" seems arbitrary. So that leads into what I have here: balance casting.

Enter the Karmacist. The karmacist casts spells from a personal pool of energy, and must always maintain the balance between positive and negative. When using negative energy spells, the karmacist gains positive energy that can be used to fuel positive energy spells. In other words, when the karmacist inflicts negative energy on another, he is really just taking their positive energy into himself, and he can distribute that positive energy later among others.

Now, on to the actual mechanics: a karmacist has a pool of energy from which they cast. Unlike most resources, the amount of energy in a karmacist's energy pool can be either a positive or negative number. Dealing negative energy damage grants a karmacist energy equal to the damage dealt. Likewise, spending positive energy to heal drains a karmacist, decreasing their energy by the amount healed. The maximum amount of energy a karmacist can store is equal to their karmacist level times their Wisdom score (not modifier). At 1st level, a karmacist can spend a standard action to focus energy into a creature, healing or dealing damage equal to [something that scales off Charisma]. As a karmacist levels, they get more ways to move around energy: rays, area-of-effect channeling, and at higher levels, building undead, creating elementals, and performing resurrections.

So, overall, what do you all think? Does the playground like the idea? And would anyone else want to help develop it?

Xuldarinar
2013-06-20, 04:12 PM
Its interesting conceptually. One could take the concept and even expand upon it. Cold/Fire casting, Electricity/Acid, Good spells/Evil spells, Lawful spells/Chaotic spells, and so on and so forth. The bottom line is all in the execution and the balancing.

Steward
2013-06-20, 04:18 PM
I definitely really like the concept, and I'll be able to talk more about it once I have an example of it in action. My question though is that as far as I know most spells do not explicitly use positive or negative energy. How does this system work? I assume you're going to turn every spell effect that you want to include into one of the two types (positive or negative), but how specifically are going to balance it? I think I really do not

Let's say Karim the Karmacist is at 1st level, with a Wisdom score of 10.

So his max energy is 10, right? So if he wants, he can use a ray to heal his sister Ashley for 10 points, making his karma pool now 0. But you say that the number can be both positive and negative right? Does that mean that, if he needs to, he can keep healing Ashley for more than that, pushing his karma pool below 0, to, say, -5? Or is the limit really 0, and he needs to inflict negative energy damage to push his energy back up to the maximum 10 so that he can keep healing?

I have a feeling I'm butchering this concept. Can you help me visualize it better?

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-20, 04:34 PM
Its interesting conceptually. One could take the concept and even expand upon it. Cold/Fire casting, Electricity/Acid, Good spells/Evil spells, Lawful spells/Chaotic spells, and so on and so forth. The bottom line is all in the execution and the balancing.

Ooh, interesting. Archetypes/ACFs, perhaps?


I definitely really like the concept, and I'll be able to talk more about it once I have an example of it in action. My question though is that as far as I know most spells do not explicitly use positive or negative energy. How does this system work?

I was really worried I didn't make it clear enough, and it looks like I didn't.


I assume you're going to turn every spell effect that you want to include into one of the two types (positive or negative), but how specifically are going to balance it? I think I really do not

That first sentence is basically correct. I can just make a sweeping generalization by saying "all spells on the Cleric spell list that heal are positive spells, and all Cleric spells with the [evil] descriptor that deal damage are negative". But you really do not... understand?


Let's say Karim the Karmacist is at 1st level, with a Wisdom score of 10.

So his max energy is 10, right? So if he wants, he can use a ray to heal his sister Ashley for 10 points, making his karma pool now 0. But you say that the number can be both positive and negative right? Does that mean that, if he needs to, he can keep healing Ashley for more than that, pushing his karma pool below 0, to, say, -5? Or is the limit really 0, and he needs to inflict negative energy damage to push his energy back up to the maximum 10 so that he can keep healing?

His energy can be anywhere from -10 to 10. It should also start at 0, but assuming he starts at 10 energy, he can heal her for 10 hit points and that'll bring him to 0 energy. He could heal her for another 10 hit points, which would bring him to -10 energy.

At that point, he wouldn't have any more energy with which to fuel his healing spells. So he'd need to, say, go up to a goblin and deal it 10 damage. That would grant him 10 energy (putting him at 0), because he's essentially taking the life-force into himself, and he could then spend that 10 energy (going back down to -10) to heal Ashley for another 10 damage.


I have a feeling I'm butchering this concept. Can you help me visualize it better?

You're not, I just couldn't figure out how to explain it well. I imagine it like a number line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_line) - remember those from grade school? The karmacist's energy is represented by a point on the line. The point is moved to the right (positive direction) by dealing negative energy damage (expending negative energy), and the point is moved to the left (negative direction) by healing (expending positive energy). Or, if that's a bit too abstract, you can ignore it.

Steward
2013-06-20, 04:43 PM
That's perfect. I don't think your original explanation was bad, I was just having trouble visualizing it. The number line idea makes it completely clear to me now, and that was what I was thinking originally.


That first sentence is basically correct. I can just make a sweeping generalization by saying "all spells on the Cleric spell list that heal are positive spells, and all Cleric spells with the [evil] descriptor that deal damage are negative". But you really do not... understand?

I understand the concept, I was just having trouble thinking of how you would slot in spells that aren't either healing or do not have the [evil] descriptor would work. Like Summon Monster V to call a mephit -- positive or negative? Or telekinesis -- positive or negative? What about scrying or teleportation -- positive or negative? I feel like you would have to make many of the classifications somewhat arbitrary, which honestly I would be completely comfortable with since, well, it's not as if their current classifications make too much sense. (For instance, right now sometimes blasting someone with energy is conjuration and other times it's evocation).

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-20, 05:36 PM
That's perfect. I don't think your original explanation was bad, I was just having trouble visualizing it. The number line idea makes it completely clear to me now, and that was what I was thinking originally.

Oh, great! I'm a huge math nerd, and when I begin speaking about anything abstract I tend to elicit blank looks and stares, but it's good to know that the number line is helpful.


I understand the concept, I was just having trouble thinking of how you would slot in spells that aren't either healing or do not have the [evil] descriptor would work. Like Summon Monster V to call a mephit -- positive or negative? Or telekinesis -- positive or negative? What about scrying or teleportation -- positive or negative? I feel like you would have to make many of the classifications somewhat arbitrary, which honestly I would be completely comfortable with since, well, it's not as if their current classifications make too much sense. (For instance, right now sometimes blasting someone with energy is conjuration and other times it's evocation).

Actually, I was thinking of giving either their own spell list, which would just deal with positive/negative energy, but a good bit of it would be taken from the Cleric list. The other thing I was considering was just giving a whole bunch of SLAs. For example, "SLA: transfer positive or negative energy into a target with a touch, healing or dealing damage equal to [something that scales off Charisma], at will". Either way, I remove the arbitrary classification of Telekinesis into either positive or negative by not letting the Karmacist cast Telekenisis at all.

Day_Dreamer
2013-06-20, 06:04 PM
I could easily see this being massively, massively abusable. If you were constructing an entirely new system based on this it could be really cool, but there are any number of ways, as I perceive it, this systems could be exploited.

Case A: Karmacist out of combat
After a difficult fight in a forest, most of the party is down to pretty low hp. The Cleric could burn a lot of spells to heal everyone up, or....
the Karmacist heals a person. Then hurts a tree. Then heals again. Repeat.
Similarly, the Karmacist can likely cast any generic utility spells she knows an arbitrary number of times in a row simply by burning their other-karma on something irrelevant and quick.

Case B: Karmacist in combat
Karmacist spends turn 1 on a big damage spell on something!!!!
Karmacist spends turn 2 on a big healing/buff spell on something!!!!
etc.

For this to work, I would recommend considering inverting the way this currently works; dealing damage increases your damage dealing capacity, and healing increases your healing abilities. Your pool would gradually go to 0 over the course of time outside of active spellcasting. Maybe going too far in one direction has negative repercussions; when you are overly negative your spells bleed out a bit into yourself, hurting you. When you are overly positive, your spells bleed out and heal everyone, friend or foe. Or give you cancer.

Just to Browse
2013-06-20, 06:24 PM
Case B: Karmacist in combat
Karmacist spends turn 1 on a big damage spell on something!!!!
Karmacist spends turn 2 on a big healing/buff spell on something!!!!
etc.

This is the abuse I see being most problematic. If you're trying to write up a class that requires being flexible in combat, then do it by magnitude (basic math example: deal between 0 and 10 damage + energy, subtract damage dealt from your energy. Max energy is 10).

Day_Dreamer
2013-06-20, 06:36 PM
This is the abuse I see being most problematic. If you're trying to write up a class that requires being flexible in combat, then do it by magnitude (basic math example: deal between 0 and 10 damage + energy, subtract damage dealt from your energy. Max energy is 10).
Yeah, a flat "do energy damage/heal" is pretty gamebreaking, conceptually.

concept:

Minor Karmic Rebalance:
Range: Touch
+1/-1 Karma.
If you have positive Karma, gives +1 Karma, otherwise, gives -1.
If you have positive Karma, heals 1d6+Karma (max 5).
Otherwise, deals 1d6-Karma damage (max 5)

Steward
2013-06-20, 06:44 PM
I guess the best way to mitigate that without changing the core mechanic would be to have a restricted spell list -- one that is pared down to the point where you can't really 'break the game'.

Either that or you could make it into a spell point system, where certain effects have either different costs or different replenishment amounts.

Or maybe you can have a limitation on how often you can replenish your spell pool or how much of it you can expend at once, but then that just becomes a de facto spell point system or something similar to psionics, which would be OK but it would kind of change the cool concept of having two sources of energy, one of which replenishes the other.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-20, 06:54 PM
For this to work, I would recommend considering inverting the way this currently works; dealing damage increases your damage dealing capacity, and healing increases your healing abilities.

I thought about this, but since healing in combat is really weak, the karmacist would just do DPS in combat and then heal out of combat. I chose to have it inverted so that one always has to use both energy types.

Day_Dreamer
2013-06-20, 07:12 PM
I thought about this, but since healing in combat is really weak, the karmacist would just do DPS in combat and then heal out of combat. I chose to have it inverted so that one always has to use both energy types.

It might be possible to design specifically around the weakness of conventional combat healing. Maybe powerful AOE healing spells that are indiscriminate, healing friend and foe alike?

The way it is currently set up just forces you to alternate between buffs and strikes every turn, which I (I've played a similar roll in another game) ends up feeling a bit meh.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-20, 07:33 PM
It might be possible to design specifically around the weakness of conventional combat healing. Maybe powerful AOE healing spells that are indiscriminate, healing friend and foe alike?

Yeah. I've always found it arbitrary how energy can somehow distinguish between friend and foe. But perhaps some kind of "efficiency" mechanic is needed, because an aoe that does X damage/healing to Y targets costs X*Y energy, which can get really big, really fast.


The way it is currently set up just forces you to alternate between buffs and strikes every turn, which I (I've played a similar roll in another game) ends up feeling a bit meh.

To a certain extent, I guess, but it shouldn't have to be every turn. Also, not buffing, just healing. Though...maybe buffing. We'll see.

Day_Dreamer
2013-06-20, 07:55 PM
Yeah. I've always found it arbitrary how energy can somehow distinguish between friend and foe. But perhaps some kind of "efficiency" mechanic is needed, because an aoe that does X damage/healing to Y targets costs X*Y energy, which can get really big, really fast.



To a certain extent, I guess, but it shouldn't have to be every turn. Also, not buffing, just healing. Though...maybe buffing. We'll see.
You could say, perhaps:
All healing stuff is aoe somehow. Or, more interestingly, all healing stuff becomes AOE if your karma is high enough.
damage stuff is generally more single target. If your karma is low enough, it might become AOE as well. If the AOE is, say, a circle centered on yourself, this could result in an interesting management game of your karma-resources and map positioning.

Aldreck
2013-06-20, 08:32 PM
Reading your opening post made me think of the Lifeweaver, a homebrew class that was posted in this forum back in 2010. You might like to check out this thread for inspiration and ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140211

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-20, 08:38 PM
You could say, perhaps:
All healing stuff is aoe somehow. Or, more interestingly, all healing stuff becomes AOE if your karma is high enough.
damage stuff is generally more single target. If your karma is low enough, it might become AOE as well. If the AOE is, say, a circle centered on yourself, this could result in an interesting management game of your karma-resources and map positioning.

I still want to keep the balance between positive and negative karma, though; having healing get better (be aoe) the more you heal (raise your karma) goes against that. At the very least, by low/mid-level there are four main things it needs to be able to do:

Single-target damage
Area-of-effect damage.
Single-target healing.
Area-of-effect healing.

What if we just say this: Each round, the maximum amount of energy you can channel is equal to [scales off level and CHA]. You can channel all the positive or negative energy to heal or damage a single target, or you can distribute it evenly around an area. For example, if I can channel up to 50 energy each round, I could do 50 damage to one target, or I could choose a certain radius around me that has 5 other creatures in it and heal each of them for 10, or I could choose a larger radius that happens to have 10 creatures in it and damage each of them for 5.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-20, 08:58 PM
Reading your opening post made me think of the Lifeweaver, a homebrew class that was posted in this forum back in 2010. You might like to check out this thread for inspiration and ideas: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140211

Oh, wow. That's eerily similar to what I'm going for.

I want to avoid using dice, because rolling 10d4 is just inconvenient. It's much faster and easier to compress that to 25. Which, at level 20, is really not a lot. 1d4/two levels averages to 1.125 points per level, but I think a better scaling might be, say, 3 or 4 points per level. I thought about CHA modifier times level, but that would scale too quickly. I want the maximum amount of energy one can store to key off Wisdom, but the amount they can channel should scale off Charisma because it's more flavorful but also to reduce SADness.

Rainbownaga
2013-06-20, 10:00 PM
This made me think of the shadowsun ninja from ToB Which had a fairly similar ability.

One question is whether your "positive an negative energy" have . opposite effects on undead. If they do it could cause balance issues both ways- A mixed party could abuse healing, a mix of enemies could allow max strength blasting each round and a run of undead would force them to use shenanigans to remain relevant.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-21, 05:07 AM
This made me think of the shadowsun ninja from ToB Which had a fairly similar ability.

I'm not familiar with it, but I'll look it up. Edit: That's really cool. I may have to plunder its abilities use it for inspiration.


One question is whether your "positive an negative energy" have . opposite effects on undead. If they do it could cause balance issues both ways- A mixed party could abuse healing, a mix of enemies could allow max strength blasting each round and a run of undead would force them to use shenanigans to remain relevant.

It would seem really arbitrary to say "your energy works just like normal energy, but isn't flipped for undead". I guess I just have to live with the balance problem? I'm not sure how else to fix it.

Gildedragon
2013-06-21, 01:07 PM
One could do it following a warlock's eldritch blast progression of damage
Allowing the energy burst to work similar to turn/rebuke as a targeted effect might be neat.

If granting spells, going for something like wizard of the sun and moon and prepping 2 spells in 1 slot might be neat. They have to be opposition spells; either spells that explicitly counter each other or from opposing descriptors: light-darkness, fire-cold, acid-electric, good-evil, law-chaos; as special feat: corrupt/vile-sanctified could be taken be the LN, TN, and CN karmachamaleon

Saito Takuji
2013-06-21, 09:48 PM
seems rather hard to balance out but an awesome concept.

One thing that may work is being too far towards one side has detrimental effects of some kind. and to prevent cheesing around this a karmicist would be unable to affect themselves, and mabey even other karmacists, otherwise a whole team of them would just be totally OP.

another thing to look at is how other sources of positive/negative energy works on them, like if they get hit by a cure/inflict spell does it affect thier pools accordingly, in addition to the normal effects.

as for the detrimential effects, i would suggest something simmilar to positive/negativly alligned planes, the problem with this would be finding a way to make this not abuseable, wich may be difficult to work out. alternatley mechanics wise simple damage to the character for holding too much for too long , wich would be lackluster lore wise, but might be easiest to balance out.


ability wise would mostly be spells i would think, along with a maximum ammount of energe that can be channeled in one round for balance issues. mabey an ability to surpass that by taking damage and/or ability score drain/damage, wichever is not permanant.

there would NEED to be some way to prevent the damage a tree(or whatever) to heal the party and X channelign per day is the best I can think off off the top of my head

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-21, 11:36 PM
Okay, here's a completely different idea. What if there are two separate resources, light karma and dark karma. Light karma is used for positive energy, and dark karma for negative energy. The amount of karma of each type one can hold is determined by level, so that powers learned at low-level can still be relevant and useful at high level. For ease of use (counting on a die), I'm imagining each karma goes up to 4 at 1st level, 6 at 4th level, and increases by 2 every four levels after that (8 karma at 8th, 10 karma at 12th, 12 karma at 16th, and a capstone of being able to use a d20 for karma).

The karmacist casts off powers (SLAs), which are usually at-will but may have cooldowns, and powers cost light and/or dark karma. One power (need another name for them) might read like this:

Inflict
Cost: X dark karma (You may pay any amount of dark karma to use this power)
Effect: You channel negative energy into another creature, dealing damage (or healing to an undead) equal to your Charisma modifier plus X times your level.
If powers are all or mostly "augmentable", but with the augment cost built right in, then one can learn a fixed, small number of powers from a very large list and have all of them still be relevant at high level. Having utility powers will also let there be a decent amount of flexibility.

I have a couple mutually exclusive ideas for recovery:

Each power restores an amount of karma of the other type: Pros: really cool, and allows the same type of shifting between positive/light and negative/dark. Cons: more work at the table, and writing and learning powers takes longer.
Karma regenerates at a constant rate, determined only by level. Pros: really easy to balance and fine-tune. It's simple, easy to use, and easy to remember. Cons: It's boring, and I wonder if it doesn't seem too "videogamey".
Shoehorn recovery based off Wisdom in there somewhere. I want Wisdom to affect how often or how many times one can use their abilities, and Charisma to affect how powerful they are, but I'm not sure how to go about the former. Pros: is elegant, makes sense flavorfully, and reduces SAD. Cons: Would be there just for the sake of being there, which is never good.


Feedback on these mechanics? Not so much on the numbers, but mostly how they work and interact.

Edit: changed "positive karma" to "light karma" and "negative karma" to "dark karma".

drack
2013-06-22, 08:08 PM
So be undead and heal self&party, or be normal, and heal self/harm enemy? :smalltongue:
Only skimmed and blurted what came to mind, but I noticed max 10, I assume this scales with levels so I don't deal 10 to the fighter's 500? :smalltongue:
Edit: 20 seems like a kinda low cap too unless I'm missreading(/misskimming? =/) this and these aren't points of damage

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-22, 09:00 PM
I would appreciate reading the entire post, and I don't want to repeat it all here for you, but I guess it's better than nothing.

Under the new system, karma are a finite resource. As a rough guideline, 1 karma corresponds to 1 point of damage or healing per level plus the karmacist's Charisma modifier. That means, at 20th level, you can channel all your dark karma to deal 20 (karma) times 20 (level) damage, or 400 damage/healing. Do note, however, that doing so takes advantage of the capstone (the max at 19th level is 12*19=228) and leaves you very low on resources.

drack
2013-06-23, 06:18 AM
Sorry about that, had just been paging through gitp homebrew archive for stuff to use in a game, and it had me in the habit already. As it happens had read the first few posts and skimmed the rest (being one accustomed to it being in the first post). Anywho having read it, I'd say the powers would be neat, though 1/level could be a bit small at times. I'd suggest giving a limited use ability to do more for when it counts, and perhaps as a power allow them to suffuse the area with light/dark so that if they're for instance only healing people stuff will start to die around them and vice verse. :smalltongue: (admittedly more a fluff encouragement to find a balance, but oh well.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-23, 09:08 AM
Your maximum amount of karma (of both types) scales with level, and the amount of damage/healing one point of karma does also scales with level, so the maximum amount of burst energy you can output by completely draining yourself scales with level squared. There already is a "limited use ability to do more for when it counts", and that is just spending more karma on an ability.

drack
2013-06-23, 09:50 AM
*re-reads* Nope, I'm just having one of those reading-fail days where I missed the emboldened underlined text. :smalltongue:

Sounds pretty nifty, though I had suggested uses/day on the stronger one since normally healer types are bound to start running lower on slots after they keep it up.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-23, 11:24 AM
Sounds pretty nifty, though I had suggested uses/day on the stronger one since normally healer types are bound to start running lower on slots after they keep it up.

What do you mean by "the stronger one"? I've only mentioned one ability, but its power depends how much karma you spend on it. I stated in the OP that one of my goals was to get away from a largely arbitrary "uses/day" paradigm and move towards a more fluid resource system.

drack
2013-06-23, 11:37 AM
well in earnest it comes down to which level of play you're aiming for. When you make a class that can flat out do X every round, then then wherever you set X is the only power level at which the character can be played. This means that in a more optimized game they'll be at a disadvantage, and in a less optimized game they'll have to be stronger. What those levels are relative to is up to you when you make it. Generally at will is a decent bit weaker then uses/day. (Compare warlock and wizard damage outputs for details.) Therefore you're going to want to shoot for the number to be a good breath below what a healer can heal/round. I was suggesting a uses/day so that you could give them the opportunity to match or exceed those numbers a few times as needed simply because people like shining every now and then. That aside I think the class is a cool idea, though it reminds me of the pathfinder cleric in some ways. Personally not much of a warlock lover though so I see it more as a fighter/monk type thing, where you are potentially channeling this through attacks. :smalltongue:

Anywho sorry if I was a bit confusing or distracted at parts.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-23, 01:00 PM
well in earnest it comes down to which level of play you're aiming for. When you make a class that can flat out do X every round, then then wherever you set X is the only power level at which the character can be played. This means that in a more optimized game they'll be at a disadvantage, and in a less optimized game they'll have to be stronger. What those levels are relative to is up to you when you make it.

This is a very good point. I hope to make it accessible to different levels of optimization by offering a wide variety of powers; some will increase numbers (suitable for high-power games), some will give new in-combat options (like area-of-effect channeling, shielding, or summoning), and some will be utility.


Generally at will is a decent bit weaker then uses/day. (Compare warlock and wizard damage outputs for details.) Therefore you're going to want to shoot for the number to be a good breath below what a healer can heal/round. I was suggesting a uses/day so that you could give them the opportunity to match or exceed those numbers a few times as needed simply because people like shining every now and then.

Well, in-combat healing as of now is very weak, and a karmacist who focuses on healing will (should) be a strong healer. Like I said, one can be very temporarily powerful by spending resources quickly, or use weaker (cheaper) powers for a longer amount of time.

drack
2013-06-23, 01:09 PM
Eh, I've always mistrusted at will summoning. It's like the warlock in a tomb of horrors I played who just summoned things to trigger all the traps.. :smallconfused:

That aside for scaling it to different power levels you could always have a third multiple that could be .125, .5, 1, 2, or 8 at DM discretion. :smallconfused:


Can invest more karma to make it stronger:
Yes, but your karma point system is a sliding scale. My first point was that if you want a healer this could be abused by taking necropolitin or something to be negative energy, blast yourself with a full negative and then have a full positive open as a result. Alternatively being positive energy could do the same to blasting.
As I understand it there is no actual limit on how much of this can be used, so it;s rather safe to assume full power all the time when making it.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-23, 02:03 PM
Yes, but your karma point system is a sliding scale. My first point was that if you want a healer this could be abused by taking necropolitin or something to be negative energy, blast yourself with a full negative and then have a full positive open as a result. Alternatively being positive energy could do the same to blasting.

But then, if you're a necropolitan, you've spent all your dark karma (a.k.a. negative energy) healing yourself and you don't have any left to spend on damage.


As I understand it there is no actual limit on how much of this can be used, so it;s rather safe to assume full power all the time when making it.

This is completely incorrect. Think of it like mana from diablo, a hunter's focus in world of warcraft, a caster's force points from KotOR, if you've played any of those games. Read this very carefully: Karma recharges slowly over time. If you spend all your Karma of one type, you have to wait for it to recharge. Karma abilities cannot be used at full power at will.

drack
2013-06-23, 02:43 PM
This time I had actually read it. Note that your post still suggests light restoring dark, and dark restoring light as option 1 of three, that was what I was referring to. (You know, the real downside to it.)
Looks like you're leaning towards option 2.
You know, you could always do it as a regenerating overall pool, with a readied pool that draws on the overall pool equally from both types as a swift/immediate/free action. For example lets say immediate pool caps at 30, and Fred has 4 light, 10 dark. He can draw 16 from the overall pool to the immediate pool taking eight of each type putting him at 12 light 18 dark. his overall pool whigh was at say 100 (just for the sake of throwing oddball numbers around), is not lowered by 16 making it 84. that way you have an overall limit that recovers, yet you still have that limited scale, and focus on finding a balance between the two. Furthermore power level can be adjusted through the small power pool, allowing a high power level maniac who can keep up with games that deal 1000 damage/round, and low power level games where 50 is more likely at higher levels. I'd set it at the middle of the lower range though as a default so that a GM needs to manually raise it rather then putting another thing on a GM's plate when they deal with powergamer types.

Hmm, plenty of fun side-abilities you can tack on to this though if you wanted to. Burning hp to fuel the one you live off of, undeads, healing spirit type effects, hallo/sanctify (with no spell attached) type powers, ect. I would suggest making most of them work both ways though.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-23, 05:10 PM
This time I had actually read it. Note that your post still suggests light restoring dark, and dark restoring light as option 1 of three, that was what I was referring to. (You know, the real downside to it.)
Looks like you're leaning towards option 2.

Here is how I imagine it working: karma regenerates at a constant 1/round or 2/round, but that doesn't scale with level. Some, but not all, powers restore karma of the opposite type. So, as you level and your karma pool gets bigger, as does the amount of karma you spend on powers, karma becomes a measure of how much power you can output during the encounter. Also, powers that restore karma become more important.

As soon as I get back to my computer (I've been typing all these posts today from my phone), I'll make a comprehensive writeup of all the mechanics so far and give 4-5 example powers. Kind of a proof-of-concept, if you will.


You know, you could always do it as a regenerating overall pool, with a readied pool that draws on the overall pool equally from both types as a swift/immediate/free action. For example lets say immediate pool caps at 30, and Fred has 4 light, 10 dark. He can draw 16 from the overall pool to the immediate pool taking eight of each type putting him at 12 light 18 dark. his overall pool whigh was at say 100 (just for the sake of throwing oddball numbers around), is not lowered by 16 making it 84. that way you have an overall limit that recovers, yet you still have that limited scale, and focus on finding a balance between the two. Furthermore power level can be adjusted through the small power pool, allowing a high power level maniac who can keep up with games that deal 1000 damage/round, and low power level games where 50 is more likely at higher levels. I'd set it at the middle of the lower range though as a default so that a GM needs to manually raise it rather then putting another thing on a GM's plate when they deal with powergamer types.

I don't think so, because it's a rather complex way to put a hard cap on burst potential. With that system, a player needs to keep track of five things: their light karma, their dark karma, their light+dark total karma, their small pool size, and their remaining large pool size. In the current model, they only need to keep track of two things, their light and dark karma, both of which easily fit on a die.

drack
2013-06-23, 05:27 PM
Sure, sounds like you know what you want at this point. :smalltongue:

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-23, 09:05 PM
Okay, drack, read carefully :smalltongue:


Karmic Casting

A karmacist has a variety of powers, which are fueled by two resources: light karma and dark karma. Light karma is tied to positive energy, and dark karma to negative energy. The maximum amount of karma of each type a karmacist can hold is determined by his karmacist level: {table=head]Level|Maximum karma
1|4
4|6
8|8
12|10
16|12
20|20[/table]
Both types of karma passively regenerate at a rate of 1 per round in combat, or 1 per six seconds out of combat, but some powers also restore Karma.

As a karmacist gains experience, he learns several powers. A 1st-level karmacist begins play with knowledge of a number of powers equal to 1 plus his Wisdom modifier. A karmacist learns an additional power every time he levels up as well as every time his Wisdom modifier permanently increases, so a karmacist's number of powers known is always equal to his level plus his Wisdom modifier (except temporary modifiers). Each power costs a certain amount of dark and/or light karma, and some powers also cost health. A power with a cost of X or Y means any amount of karma of the type specified can be paid, and the power's effectiveness depends on the amount of karma paid. A karmacist cannot spend more karma of either type than he has. Each power has an activation time, which corresponds to a spell's casting time or a maneuver's initiation time. Finally, more advanced powers can only be learned by a karmacist of a certain level. Powers with a save have a DC of 10 + 1/2 the karmacist's level + the karmacist's Wisdom modifier.

Some example powers follow.
Cure
Cost: X light karma
Activation time: one standard action
Range: Touch
Save: Will half
Effect: You channel positive energy into a target, doing healing (or damage to undead) equal to your Charisma modifier plus X times your level.

Barrier
Cost: 1 light karma
Activation time: one swift action
Save: Will negates (harmless)
Range: close
Effect: You shield the target from harm, granting them temporary hit points for one round equal to 5 + your Charisma modifier.

Conversion
Cost: X light karma OR X dark karma
Activation time: one standard action
Minimum level: 4 (?)
Effect: You convert karma into the opposite type. If you expended light karma, you gain dark karma, and if you expended dark karma, you gain light karma.

Summon Posive Elemental
Cost: [to be decided] light karma
Activation time: one standard action
Minimum level: 8-12 (?)
Duration: 30 seconds (5 rounds)
Effect: You summon a small Positive Energy Elemental. Its stats are [to be decided], and once per round as a free action it can be directed to move and/or do one of the following: channel positive energy into one touched target, healing them (or dealing damage if undead) equal to [to be decided]; healing all living targets within a 20' radius for [to be decided], or damaging all undead within a 20' radius for [to be decided].

Drain
Cost: X light karma, X dark karma
Activation time: one standard action
Range: Close
Save: Will half
Minimum Level: 12-15 [to be decided]
Effect: You launch a deadly black ray that drains a target's lifeforce and empowers your own. It is a ranged touch attack that deals damage equal to X times your level. If it hits, regardless of whether the enemy made the save, you gain life equal to half the damage dealt.

Karmic Rebalance
Cost: see text
Activation time: one standard action
Mininum level: 6
Effect: All your karma is evenly distributed between light and dark. If your total amount of karma is odd, round up for both light and dark karma. For example, if you have 2 light and 7 dark karma before activating this power (for a total of 9), then your new light and dark karma would both be 4.5, which rounds up to 5.


I have more ideas, but as it turns out I'm still on my phone so I just wanted to type up as many as I needed to get the point across.

drack
2013-06-23, 09:35 PM
Well to be fair I only did misread the one, and that was because I had read the first posts, where one expects the class to be, and skimmed the rest. In any case without the refilling abilities the class has much less power/survivability. I am question ate about the whole conversion bit messing up the whole "balance" element, but in the mean time I'll wait until you have a good computer and some time.

TuggyNE
2013-06-23, 11:16 PM
Cure
Cost: X light karma
Activation time: one standard action
Range: Touch
Save: Will half
Effect: You channel positive energy into a target, doing healing (or damage to undead) equal to your Charisma modifier plus X times your level.

Is this "(Cha+points spent) * level" or "Cha + (points spent * level)"? If it's the former, it's pretty strong, but if the latter, the Cha mod is basically useless.

drack
2013-06-23, 11:21 PM
Was that first "latter" supposed to be "former"?

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-24, 05:41 AM
Is this "(Cha+points spent) * level" or "Cha + (points spent * level)"? If it's the latter, it's pretty strong, but if the latter, the Cha mod is basically useless.

It's the latter, because the former is too strong. I added the Cha mod to make it stronger at low levels, but if it gets multiplied in then it could hit really hard at high levels. I'm thinking about "(2 * CHA) + (X * level)", or maybe even just "X * (CHA + level)".

I included Conversion because I wasn't sure if it should be a power. On the one hand, it's a nice tool for when you need one kind of karma, and balance isn't a major theme anymore (at least, to the extent that it was). On the other hand, it might be too good, allowing you to toss out two maximum-powered Inflicts or something. I made it a standard action to alleviate that.

I'm working on another batch of powers as well.

TuggyNE
2013-06-24, 06:32 AM
Was that first "latter" supposed to be "former"?

It was.


It's the latter, because the former is too strong. I added the Cha mod to make it stronger at low levels, but if it gets multiplied in then it could hit really hard at high levels. I'm thinking about "(2 * CHA) + (X * level)", or maybe even just "X * (CHA + level)".

Hmm. I think the last of those is probably the best; it makes Cha useful at all levels without being overpowering.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-24, 07:07 AM
Update: save DCs are now calculated according to 10 + the karmacist's Wisdom OR Charisma modifier, whichever is greater + half the karmacist's level. This allows a karmacist to specialize in wisdom, for learning lots and lots of powers, or Charisma, so that their powers hit harder.

Conversion should now grant only half as many karma as spent of the opposite type. For example, spending 4 dark grants only 2 light.



More powers:


Greater Inflict
Cost: X dark karma
Activation time: one standard action
Range: Touch
Save: Will half
Minimum level: 11
Effect: You channel an incredible amount negative energy into your target, dealing damage (or healing to undead) equal to (X plus your Charisma modifier) times your level.
Special: Channeling such powerful energy is exhausting, and you must wait 2d4 rounds before doing so again.

Spirit Link
Cost: 4 light karma
Activation time: one standard action
Range: 0 (centered on you)
Area: 30' radius circle
Minimum level: 6
Effect: You link together the energies of any number of willing targets within 30 feet, transferring life from the strong to the weak. Add up the total hit points of each target and divide by the number of targets. Round up to the next whole number, and that becomes each target's new hit points. In effect, all the hit points are evenly redistributed throughout the group. If any target would have more hit points than their maximum, they gain temporary hit points for 1 hour equal to the difference.

Weakening
Cost: 3 dark karma
Activation time: one standard action
Save: Fortitude negates
Minimum level: 7
Effect: Your corruption corrodes a target's body, slowing them and sapping their strength. They are fatigued, and suffer a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. If they would become fatigued again (such as from a second use of this power), they become exhausted and take a -6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity.

Mind Flay
Cost: 1 dark karma
Activation time: one swift action
Save: Fortitude negates
Minimum level: 4
Effect: Your mental whip deals damage equal to your Charisma modifier and gives a -1 penalty to the next Will save a target makes. This penalty stacks with itself to a maximum of -5.

Rejuvenation
Cost: 3 light karma
Activation time: one standard action
Range: Close
Save: Will negates (harmless)
Minimum level: 2
Effect: The target pulses with positive energy, healing and restoring every round. At the beginning of your turn each round for the next 5 rounds, the target restores a number of hit points equal to your Charisma modifier plus your level and removes one harmful condition from the list of conditions that is affecting them.

Reflective Shield
Cost: 3 light karma, 2 dark karma
Activation time: one immediate action
Range: Medium
Save: Will negates (harmless)
Minimum level: 9
Effect: You place an emergency shield around a target, absorbing the next attack that would deal damage to him or her and dealing damage equal to the amount absorbed to the attacker, who recieves no save to reduce the damage.

drack
2013-06-24, 07:26 AM
It's the latter, because the former is too strong. I added the Cha mod to make it stronger at low levels, but if it gets multiplied in then it could hit really hard at high levels. I'm thinking about "(2 * CHA) + (X * level)", or maybe even just "X * (CHA + level)".

I included Conversion because I wasn't sure if it should be a power. On the one hand, it's a nice tool for when you need one kind of karma, and balance isn't a major theme anymore (at least, to the extent that it was). On the other hand, it might be too good, allowing you to toss out two maximum-powered Inflicts or something. I made it a standard action to alleviate that.

I'm working on another batch of powers as well.

Could always swap level for cha f you wanted it to do more. People find ways of boosting it in the end and max sill scales with level. Alternatively could have max be equal to Cha mod, which may actually work nicer...

"Conversion should now grant only half as many karma as spent of the opposite type. For example, spending 4 dark grants only 2 light." ouch. This could end up winding down rather quickly in combat depending on op level of the group...

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-24, 08:36 AM
Could always swap level for cha f you wanted it to do more. People find ways of boosting it in the end and max sill scales with level. Alternatively could have max be equal to Cha mod, which may actually work nicer...

Maximum what? There's no cap.


"Conversion should now grant only half as many karma as spent of the opposite type. For example, spending 4 dark grants only 2 light." ouch. This could end up winding down rather quickly in combat depending on op level of the group...

Well, it was too good, so I nerfed it. Do you think I overdid it?

drack
2013-06-24, 08:42 AM
Maximum what? There's no cap.



Well, it was too good, so I nerfed it. Do you think I overdid it?
Maximum karma. 12 at level 16, 20 at level 20, down by ~2 every 4 before 6, you know, that.

Mayhaps. If they're in a game where they only need ~5/action that could work, but when they get into a game where they need ~15/round to match other people or more then they can only fight for a few rounds. (and on the off chance you didn't notice, I often look at higher level play implications first. :smalltongue:)

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-24, 09:40 AM
Maximum karma. 12 at level 16, 20 at level 20, down by ~2 every 4 before 6, you know, that.

I picked those numbers so that a player can just keep track of their karma on two dice, which get bigger as they level up. A player's Charisma mod ranges from +3 to +5 at first level, +5 to +8 at 10th level, +9 to +13 at 17th level, and doesn't get much higher from there. I don't think that's enough at high level, and I think it seems elegant to keep it on a die.


Mayhaps. If they're in a game where they only need ~5/action that could work, but when they get into a game where they need ~15/round to match other people or more then they can only fight for a few rounds. (and on the off chance you didn't notice, I often look at higher level play implications first. :smalltongue:)

I meant to include some passive powers, maybe there could be one to increase regeneration. Perhaps an additional passive regeneration of 1 per 4 levels, minimum level 4? That way it scales nicely alongside karma pool size.

drack
2013-06-24, 09:51 AM
I picked those numbers so that a player can just keep track of their karma on two dice, which get bigger as they level up. A player's Charisma mod ranges from +3 to +5 at first level, +5 to +8 at 10th level, +9 to +13 at 17th level, and doesn't get much higher from there. I don't think that's enough at high level, and I think it seems elegant to keep it on a die.



I meant to include some passive powers, maybe there could be one to increase regeneration. Perhaps an additional passive regeneration of 1 per 4 levels, minimum level 4? That way it scales nicely alongside karma pool size.

Perhaps, though in low epic I've seen ability mods that can easily peek a hundred in high op. Again it really comes down to the power of the game, that's why I suggested it.

That might help. I mean I guessthings like karmatic shield let you do more for less.

Spirit Link: change "friendly" to "wlling"
Also note that fighter+wizard=wizard with 8/4 HP (might wanna ad a max HP clause)

Mind Flay: Dropping aves generally offers a save

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-24, 10:39 AM
Perhaps, though in low epic I've seen ability mods that can easily peek a hundred in high op. Again it really comes down to the power of the game, that's why I suggested it.

I'm really not going to worry about balancing my homebrew for high-op epic. It just rarely gets played, especially with homebrew.


Mind Flay: Dropping aves generally offers a save

Even if it's just -1 or -2 on a single save for one target? I don't want too much rolling, and it can't be a Will save otherwise it has the Mind Fog problem of "you need to fail a Will Save to have your Will save lowered"

drack
2013-06-24, 10:57 AM
I'm really not going to worry about balancing my homebrew for high-op epic. It just rarely gets played, especially with homebrew.



Even if it's just -1 or -2 on a single save for one target? I don't want too much rolling, and it can't be a Will save otherwise it has the Mind Fog problem of "you need to fail a Will Save to have your Will save lowered"
If you say so. (Mostly runs epic games, mid-op mostly but still ends up with high numbers. Same op lower level would still give gecent mods though that evenly scale through the game.)


It's usually done, yes. The save isn't always the same as the score it affects though.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-24, 11:01 AM
If you say so. (Mostly runs epic games, mid-op mostly but still ends up with high numbers. Same op lower level would still give gecent mods though that evenly scale through the game.)

On these forums at least, which is pretty much the only place I see homebrew being used, I can count on one hand the number of epic games I've seen.


It's usually done, yes. The save isn't always the same as the score it affects though.

Fort negates it is.

drack
2013-06-24, 11:31 AM
On these forums at least, which is pretty much the only place I see homebrew being used, I can count on one hand the number of epic games I've seen.

On these forums alone I couldn't count them on my fingers and toes. :smalltongue:
I've Dmed 4-5 on these forums myself.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-24, 03:13 PM
On these forums alone I couldn't count them on my fingers and toes. :smalltongue:
I've Dmed 4-5 on these forums myself.

Huh. Well, I guess you have been around longer than I have.

Anyway, not to get off topic, but do you have any final feeback on the base mechanics before I begin writing powers in earnest? I want to have at least 40 or so before I release it as a finished product. There's also playtesting, but finding people to playtest homebrew is really hard.

drack
2013-06-24, 03:22 PM
That's about all I have thus far. You seem to prefer the way you have it for now. In any case I only started DMing to years or so ago, though I suppose I have. :smallconfused: It's also about who you know, what kind of games you're interested in, and how often you look. (I admit I don't look often)

Hm, playtesting may be hard. I ended up having to playtest both my homebrewed classes myself. Since I like to make original mechanics rather then just ripping off wizards I end up rarely having enough time to brew (mostly because I prefer doing things in one sitting), so only two on the forums for now.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-25, 12:49 AM
Woo for new powers! Trying to focus on ones that can be taken for low level. I could alphabetize them, but for now they're in no particular order.

Rejuvenate
Cost: 2 light karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Save: Will negates
Minimum level: 1
Effect: Healing mists surround the target, suffusing them with positive energy. Each round, for the next 5 rounds, they heal a number of hit points equal to your Charisma bonus, minimum 1. If this effect would grant the target hit points above their maximum, they gain temporary hit points for one round equal to the difference.

Attunement
Passive ability
Minimum level: 4
Effect: Your base Karma regeneration each round is increased by one point.
Special: This power can be selected multiple times, to a maximum of one Attunement per four levels. In other words, it can be selected a second time at 8th level, a third time at 12th, and so on.

Attunement is comparable to Font of Inspiration for factotums, in that you'll probably want it one or two, maybe even three times.

Atonement
Cost: 1 light karma
Activation time: 1 swift action
Minimum level: 1
Effect: Your next damaging power this round on which you spend light karma also heals the nearby (within 25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels) friendly target with the lowest amount of health for an amount equal to the damage done.

Smite Evil
Cost: 3 light karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Save: none
Minimum level: 2
Effect: The target of this spell must be Evil, otherwise the spell fails. They take damage equal to your Charisma modifier times your level.

Smite Good
Cost: 3 dark karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Save: none
Minimum level: 2
Effect: The target of this spell must be Good, otherwise the spell fails. They take damage equal to your Charisma modifier times your level.

Revitalize
Cost: 3 light karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Minimum level: 3
Effect: [Fluff text]. One target's hit points double. They gain hit points equal to their current number of hit points. If this effect would grant the target hit points above their maximum, they gain no hit points above their maximum.

Ravage
Cost: 3 dark karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Save: Fortitude negates
Minimum level: 3
Effect: [Fluff text]. One target takes negative energy damage equal to half their remaining hit points. If the target is undead, however, they gain hit points equal to half their current points.

Mass Cure
Cost: X light karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 (centered on you)
Area: 20' radius
Minimum level: 1
Effect: You channel positive energy to heal all living (and harm all undead) creatures within a 20' radius. Each creature gains (or loses) a number of hit points equal to your Charisma modifier plus one-third times X times your level.

Mass Inflict
Cost: X dark karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 (centered on you)
Area: 20' radius
Minimum level: 1
Effect: You channel negative energy to damage all living (and heal all undead) creatures within a 20' radius. Each creature loses (or gains) a number of hit points equal to your Charisma modifier plus one-third times X times your level.

If the positioning of the 1/3 didn't make it clear, mass cure and inflict are supposed to heal or harm for CHA + 1/3*X*level.



Feedback on these?

TuggyNE
2013-06-25, 03:47 AM
Revitalize
[…]
For the next 5 rounds, they heal a number of hit points equal to your Charisma modifier.

Should be "Each round, for the next 5 rounds, they heal a number of hit points equal to your Charisma bonus, minimum 1."


Smite Evil
[…]
Effect: The target this spell must be Evil, otherwise the spell fails. They take damage equal to two times your Charisma modifier times your level.

Missing an "of" in the first sentence. Second sentence should just say "twice" instead of "two times".


Smite Good
[…]
Effect: The target this spell must be Good, otherwise the spell fails. They take damage equal to two times your Charisma modifier times your level

Same song, second verse, this time add a period too.


Revitalize
[…]
One target's hit points double.

Current hit points, presumably; clarify.


Ravage
[…]
One target loses half their hit points..

Again, needs clarification to be sure.


Mass Cure
Cost: X light karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 (centered on you)
Area: 20' radius
Minimum level: 1
Effect: You channel positive energy to heal all living (and harm all undead) creatures within a 20' radius. Each creature gains (or loses) a number of hit points equal to your Charisma modifier plus one-third times X times your level.

Doesn't incarnum use e as its essentia investment "variable"? Maybe try using k to signify something similar.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-25, 07:59 AM
Should be...

Thanks for all the nitpicking. I must have rewritten Smite Evil/Smite Good two or three or five times, so I'm not surprised a bunch of errors got through.



Doesn't incarnum use e as its essentia investment "variable"? Maybe try using k to signify something similar.

Hmm, makes sense. I just picked X as the generic variable.

drack
2013-06-25, 08:17 AM
Combos:
4X attunement: full power strike each round with a few extra points for fun. Before same with x3, and estimating off the top of my head, but about the same story for 2X when available

Revitalize-> revitalizeX4, suddenly I have (fullHP+cha mod)*16

smites deal lots of damage, and with atonement heal lots. suddenly I don't even need attunment to blast foll strength both heal and inflicts at will.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-25, 10:24 AM
Combos:
4X attunement: full power strike each round with a few extra points for fun.

Oh, right, I don't want Attunement to scale with level squared. New version:


Attunement
Passive ability
Minimum level: 4
Effect: Your base Karma regeneration each round is increased by one point.
Special: This power can be selected multiple times, to a maximum of one Attunement per four levels. In other words, it can be selected a second time at 8th level, a third time at 12th, and so on.





Before same with x3, and estimating off the top of my head, but about the same story for 2X when available

Revitalize-> revitalizeX4, suddenly I have (fullHP+cha mod)*16

That was an idea I had, so I just decided to write it down so I didn't forget. I was so tired when finishing these that I actually used the word "revitalize" twice. The heal-over-time should be Rejuvenate, because that sounds like it takes longer, whereas Revitalize sounds like a more instantaneous thing. Here's the full power:


Revitalize
Cost: 3 light karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Minimum level: 3
Effect: [Fluff text]. One target's hit points double. They gain hit points equal to their current number of hit points. If this effect would grant the target hit points above their maximum, they gain no hit points above their maximum.



smites deal lots of damage, and with atonement heal lots. suddenly I don't even need attunment to blast foll strength both heal and inflicts at will.

I wanted Smites to be strong, but it looks like they're too strong. I had them be powerful so that they weren't outclassed by basic Inflict at low levels, but I can just increase their minimum level. Updating:


Smite Evil
Cost: 4 light karma 3 light karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Save: none
Minimum level: 4
Effect: The target of this spell must be Evil, otherwise the spell fails. They take damage equal to two times your Charisma modifier times your level.


Note: Smite's karma cost has been reduced from 4 to 3 to make sure it is better than Inflict.

drack
2013-06-25, 10:52 AM
Smite: nah, I see this as being stronger anyways as soon as Cha mod surpasses karma. I'd just jack the cost up so that people can't be casting it indefinitely (or even tens of times) off attainment. Currently how I'd do it were I to optimize it is:
Buff Cha, always have karmatic shield up (multiple if possible), get attainment, make smite my attack, and atonment smite my heal, if I face a neutral creature see if I can't get them to kill themselves with karmatic shield, or catch them with a half strength burst (inflict assuming positive energy critter) to see how much damage it does.

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-25, 12:59 PM
Smite: nah, I see this as being stronger anyways as soon as Cha mod surpasses karma. I'd just jack the cost up so that people can't be casting it indefinitely (or even tens of times) off attainment. Currently how I'd do it were I to optimize it is:
Buff Cha, always have karmatic shield up (multiple if possible), get attainment, make smite my attack, and atonment smite my heal, if I face a neutral creature see if I can't get them to kill themselves with karmatic shield, or catch them with a half strength burst (inflict assuming positive energy critter) to see how much damage it does.

I think Atonement's too good. Since light karma can heal as well as do damage, but dark karma can just do damage, light karma should do less damage so that they're balanced. Otherwise, a karmacist will always use light karma.

New Atonement!


Atonement
Cost: 1 light karma
Activation time: 1 swift action
Minimum level: 1
Effect: Your next damaging power this round on which you spend light karma also heals the nearby (within 25 feet + 5 feet/2 levels) friendly target with the lowest amount of health for an amount equal to half the damage done.

In addition, I have new tools for dark-karma dps.

Agony
Cost: 2 dark karma
Activation time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium
Save: Will negates
Duration: 1 hour
Effect: Your magic afflicts the target with a powerful curse. Whenever they take damage, they take additional negative energy damage equal to your Charisma modifier. If the target is undead, they instead heal for your Charisma modifier

Agony needs tweaking to ensure an undead party member doesn't stab themselves to heal, but the basic idea is solid, I think. More to come.

drack
2013-06-25, 01:02 PM
Agony needs tweaking to ensure an undead party member doesn't stab themselves to heal, but the basic idea is solid, I think. More to come.

Well even self stabbing takes actions... :smalltongue:

AttilaTheGeek
2013-06-25, 11:20 PM
Well even self stabbing takes actions... :smalltongue:

But it shouldn't be a method of healing.

Moar powers!

Corrode
Cost: K dark karma
Activation time: one standard action
Range: Close
Save: Will negates
Minimum level: 3
Effect: Negative energy surrounds the target, damaging it for K times your Charisma bonus (minimum 1) at the beginning of your turn each round for the next five rounds. Undead are healed by this rather than damaged.

Amplify
Cost:1 light karma and 1 dark karma
Activation time: 1 swift action
Minimum level: 11
Effect: Whenever a creature targeted by your next power or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the power, it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the power, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

TuggyNE
2013-06-25, 11:43 PM
Tuggyne's proofreading, I choose you!

Why thank you! :smallwink:


Unnamed Dark Damage-Over-Time
Cost: K dark karma (you may pay any amount of dark karma to activate this power)

How about "Corrode" or something?

Also, I'd suggest making a general note so as to leave it out of the individual power statblocks, something like "Whenever a karmacist power refers to K, it represents a variable amount of karma you may choose to invest for proportionate effect. The amount chosen is spent before the power takes effect, and the same number is used for all relevant calculations for that instance."

Although… is there a limit on the amount of karma you can spend, other than your overall maximum?


Effect: Dark energy surrounds the target, damaging it (or healing it if it is undead) equal to K times your Charisma modifier at the beginning of your turn each round for the next five rounds.

Try "Negative energy surrounds the target, damaging it for K times your Charisma bonus (minimum 1) at the beginning of your turn each round for the next five rounds. Undead are healed by this rather than damaged."


Amplify
Cost:1 light karma and 1 dark karma
Activation time: 1 swift action
Minimum level: 11
Effect: The next power you activate requires two saves, as Pathfinder's persistent spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/persistent-spell-metamagic) metamagic feat.

I'd copy-paste-edit Persistent Spell in place, but eh.

drack
2013-06-26, 07:28 AM
Persist is cool, and th other is the dark version of one mentioned earlier, so nothing else to comment on in brokenness. :smalltongue: