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NeoPhoenix0
2013-06-29, 10:43 PM
Thank you to all who helped me make this template. The template and feat sections are done. Please review and point out any flaws or editing errors. I am now working on a paragon class and ask for suggestions or review on what I have.

Wikipedia-like cross-indexing:
Eripmav (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260051)
Cheiromancer's version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15544950&postcount=27) of my template (it's in the spoiler)


Creating a Vampire
"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A vampire uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
--Size and Type: The base creature's type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
--Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
--Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and does not have the running water taboo (see below).
--Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus improves by +2.
--Special Attacks: A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 vampire's HD + vampire's Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.
--Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. The victim must be within one size category of the vampire and have a circulatory system containing blood. If the vampire pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round the pin is maintained. Each such successful attack heals the vampire 5 hit points.
--Charm Gaze (Su): Vampires can charm humanoid or monstrous humanoid opponents just by looking into their eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at the vampire are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must make a successful Will save or fall under the vampire’s influence as though affected by a charm monster spell (caster level equal to HD). Any creature that successfully saves against a vampire’s charm gaze cannot be affected by that vampire’s charm gaze for 24 hours. The ability has a range of 30 feet. A vampire may use this ability a maximum of 3 + Cha modifier times per day (minimum 1/day).
--Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid whose Constitution has been drained to 0 or lower by a vampire's blood drain returns as a vampire 1d4 days after burial. The new vampire is not enslaved by the vampire that created it but has free will.
--Special Qualities: A vampire retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
--Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 5/silver or magic. However, a helpless vampire does not benefit from damage reduction.
--Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 1 point of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point but less than half its full normal hit points. As long as the vampire has more than half its full normal hit points, its fast healing does not function.
--Resistances (Ex): A vampire has resistance to cold 5 and electricity 5.
--Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampire has +2 turn resistance.
--Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +2, Dex +2, Cha +2. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.
--Skills: Vampires have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as base creature.
--Feats: As base creature. Vampires also gain Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Initiative as a bonus feats, even if the base creature does not meet the prerequisites.
When you become a vampire you may trade one feat for a vampire feat as long as the feat you trade wasn't chosen from a limited list. You may also trade in one non-vampire feat acquired by leveling up for a vampire feat every time you level up. You may not trade in a feat this way if it is a prerequisite for another feat you possess or for a prestige class you have levels in.
--Alignment: Usually evil (any).
--Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +2
Vampire Weaknesses
--Taboos: To maintain its powers a vampire must abide by certain taboos. When a vampire violates one of its taboos it loses access to all its vampire special qualities and special attacks until the next sunset. When a vampire breaks a taboo it also takes a -1 to all attack rolls, concentration checks, listen checks, search checks, and spot checks until the next sunset. Vampire taboos include:

Cannot enter direct sunlight
Cannot enter running water
Cannot attack or approach within 5 ft. of someone brandishing a holy symbol or mirror (holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action)
Cannot enter a home or other building unless invited by someone with the authority to do so (but may still enter public places)
Cannot enter an area laced with garlic

--Sleep: Unlike most undead, vampires need to sleep. A vampire loses its fast healing special quality if it has not slept for at least 4 hours in the previous 24. Most vampires choose to sleep during the day. A vampire is helpless while sleeping.
--Slashing and piercing weapons: Unlike most undead a vampire can be subject to sneak attacks and critical hits (including coup de graces) but only from slashing and piercing weapons. A common weapon used to kill a helpless vampire is a wooden stake.

A wooden stake is a simple weapon the following profile
{table=head]Weapon|Cost|Damage (M)|Critical|Range Increment|weight|Type

Wooden stake|--|1d4|x2|--|1/2 lb.|Piercing[/table]

Vampire Feats

Some Vampire feats add special qualities or special attacks to the vampire, and others modify or add to existing ones. As such vampire feats are subject to a vampire's taboos unless otherwise stated.

Brutal Fangs[Vampire]
Your fangs can extend longer and your jaw muscles strengthen making your bite a dangerous weapon, even when you aren't drinking.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Str 13
Benefit: You gain a natural bite attack if you did not already have one. If you did not already have a bite attack use the appropriate damage from the table below according to your size, and treat the bite attack as a primary natural attack. When you use your Blood Drain special attack you may also deal your bite damage in addition to the Constitution damage of the ability.
Special: This feat is not affected by taboos.
{table=head]Size|Bite damage

Fine|1

Diminutive|1d2

Tiny|1d3

Small|1d4

Medium|1d6

Large|1d8

Huge|2d6

Gargantuan|2d8

Colossal|4d6[/table]

Day Walker[Vampire]
Your mastery of your vampiric powers makes the sun a less dangerous obstacle. Its affects on you no longer persist after you leave its sight.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Any two vampire feats
Benefit: You no longer have the "cannot enter direct sunlight" taboo. Instead you loses access to your vampire special qualities and special attacks only as long as you are in direct sunlight. These abilities return when you are no longer in direct sunlight.
Special:This feat is not affected by taboos.

Improved Elemental Resilience[Vampire]
You are more able to resist the cold and electricity.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Cha 13
Benefit: Your resistances special quality improves to cold 10 and electricity 10.

Improved Supernatural Skin[Vampire]
Your skin has become more resistant to certain forms of attack.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character level 9
Benefit: Your damage reduction special quality improves to damage reduction 5/silver and magic. A vampire with at least five vampire feats gain damage reduction 10/silver and magic. You still lose the benefit of damage reduction if you are helpless.
Special: Your natural weapons and unarmed strikes are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Improved Vampiric Healing[Vampire]
The more you embrace your vampiric powers the faster you heal.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character level 5
Benefit: Replace your fast healing special quality with the following:
--Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals a number of hit points per round equal to the number of vampire feats it has as long as it has at least 1 hit point, to a maximum of 5 hit points per round.

Necrotic Mist [Vampire]
You are harder to kill now as you are capable of turning into mist instead of just being destroyed.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character level 5
Bonus: Once per day, if an attack would reduce you to less than 1 hit point, you may instead attempt a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the difference between the attacks damage and your current hit points. You have a +1 bonus to this save for every vampire feat you possess. If your Fortitude save succeeds you immediately assume the form of necrotic mist for up to 10 minutes. Necrotic mist is an supernatural effect similar to gaseous form, except that while in the form of necrotic mist you are immune to hit point loss and have a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. When the effect expires or is dismissed your hit points are set to 1 hp and you are helpless for one hour.
Normal: An undead is normally destroyed if reduced below 1 hit point.

Unnatural Acrobatics[Vampire]
You have trained yourself to use your unnatural agility to climb surfaces with ease.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Dex 13
Bonus: You gain the the following special quality:
--Spider Climb (Su): A vampire can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.

Racial Paragon Class
You cannot become a Vampire paragon if you are already a paragon of a race. If you become a vampire paragon you cannot become the paragon of a race.

Vampire Paragon

Hit Die: d12

Class Skills (4+Int modifier per level): Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana, Geography, History, Local, Nobility or Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Vampire paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor.

Spellcasting: At 2nd and 3rd level, a vampire paragon gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of vampire paragon to the level in the spellcasting class, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.

If a character had more than one spellcasting class before he became a vampire paragon, he must decide to which class he adds each level of vampire paragon. If a vampire paragon has no levels in a spellcasting class, this class feature has no effect.

Improved Elemental Resilience: At 1st level, a vampire paragon gains Improved Elemental Resilience as a bonus feat even if he doesn't normally qualify for it. If the vampire paragon already has the Improved Elemental Resilience feat he may improve both his cold and electrical resistance by 5.

Charm Gaze: At 2nd level, a vampire paragon gains a +2 bonus to the save DC of his charm gaze ability.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level, a vampire paragon gains a bonus feat. This feat can be any vampire feat. The character must meet the prerequisites for the bonus feat normally.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Improved Elemental Resilience|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Charm Gaze|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing spellcasting class[/table]

AuraTwilight
2013-06-29, 10:58 PM
Not bad. Not bad at all. I would actually use this.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-06-29, 11:16 PM
Thank you, it's always nice to have your work appreciated. I dropped a lot of stuff but still kept quite a bit so i had to weaken a lot of the powers.

My favorite part is how I actually attempted to define a vampire's vulnerability to stake. A vampire will probably die given how harsh the fortitude save is and the complete lack of con modifier.

Blackhawk748
2013-06-29, 11:35 PM
is the fort save the standard coup de grace save?

NeoPhoenix0
2013-06-29, 11:39 PM
is the fort save the standard coup de grace save?

Yes.

I was just going to say yes but i can't because it is too short so now i will say that i will clarify it in the text.

Edit: Does any one have an opinion on adding some form of natural attack like its original slam attack or maybe giving it improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat? Or maybe i should just leave it alone for now and start on racial feats.

Cheiromancer
2013-06-30, 04:49 PM
I like it too. It has enough abilities to give the feel of a vampire without being too overpowering. For example, instead of a dominating gaze, you have charm person 1/day. You have a spawn ability, but because your spawn have free will you can't raise your own army of the undead. Same flavor, but without the balance problems.

One question about the blood drain; if your victim has been injured in battle, one point of blood drain might be enough to cause death. Should this be enough to cause the victim to return as a vampire? Also you should specify more how the victim returns. In 1d4 nights, probably, but only if buried.

One part I don't particularly care for is the vampire weaknesses section. For instance, the part about exhaustion and nausea is very confusing, and the part about mirrors and brandished holy symbols is just odd. Isn't this represented by the turning ability of clerics? And if a villager brandishes a mirror at you for only one round, why are you unable to attack him for the rest of the encounter? Is there anything preventing you from using ranged attacks or spells?

I know it is traditional vampire lore, but shouldn't it be reworked into something less strange and easier to play?

Also, to be subject to a coup de grace, you have to be helpless. What do you think would be some common ways that a vampire would become helpless? And wouldn't a wooden stake have trouble overcoming the vampire's DR? Low damage and a low multiplier means that without sneak attack damage you might only do 1 hp damage.

edit: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12955340&postcount=11) is a suggestion that vampire weaknesses could function as wu jen taboos. I.e., they temporarily lose their powers if they walk in sunlight, are fully immersed in running water, harm someone brandishing a holy symbol or mirror, enter a home without an invitation, etc.. Probably the PC should just choose two or three typical weaknesses. A racial class that improved their powers could require that they take on more of them.

Blackhawk748
2013-06-30, 06:20 PM
well he just took the Mirror, Holy Symbl thing directly from the Vampire entry in MM1

NeoPhoenix0
2013-06-30, 06:21 PM
snip

Thank you for the very constructive criticism. I will carfully comsider this and probably implament it in some way because the weaknesses are very confusing as is.

Cheiromancer
2013-06-30, 06:43 PM
well he just took the Mirror, Holy Symbl thing directly from the Vampire entry in MM1

So she did. But doesn't it strike you as kind of peculiar, as far as game mechanics go? I hope NeoPhoenix0 goes with the wu jen taboo idea. I think it would give it a lot of flavor.


Thank you for the very constructive criticism. I will carfully comsider this and probably implament it in some way because the weaknesses are very confusing as is.

Also, the vampire should be able to heal hit points by draining blood. The SRD says they get 5 temporary hit points per attack, but SRD vampires don't have any limitation on their fast healing.

If you do go with vampire weakness = wu jen taboo, consider letting the vampire retain the blood drain ability even if it breaks a taboo. Drinking blood would then be a way of regaining its powers before it normally would recover.

And about the recovery time after violating the taboo: A wu jen loses the ability to cast spells for the rest of the day; for a vampire it should be until the next sunset.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-06-30, 11:31 PM
I have altered the blood drain, create spawn, and vampire weaknesses sections.

Do you think i should keep the wooden stake section or should i make damage from wooden weapons a taboo?

LordErebus12
2013-07-01, 12:52 AM
A wooden stake is an improvised weapon the following profile
{table=head]Weapon|Cost|Damage (M)|Critical|Range Increment|weight|Type

Wooden stake|--|1d4|x2|--|1/2 lb.|Piercing[/table]

Id make it a simple weapon... everyone should be able use it without a penalty.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-01, 01:23 AM
I suppose it does seem to be pretty easy to stab someone with a pointed stick.

Also upped the nat armor bonus to +2 for a few reasons including being a +2 LA template and the variety of ways they can lose many of their features.

I might get around to making a few of those racial feats tomorrow.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-01, 05:45 AM
I really like the revision.

When you say "supernatural powers" (in the Weaknesses section), you don' t mean only the ones with the (Su) tag, do you? It still refers to all the Special Qualities and Special Attacks? I think you mean the latter (except for blood drain), but the wording sounds like the former.

A few other ideas - take them or leave them as you like:

I was thinking that the vampire's vulnerability to decapitation and staking might indicate that it, unlike most undead, has a vulnerability to sneak attacks and critical hits. Although maybe only with slashing and piercing weapons.

Do you see feeding on blood as a requirement? How often, and what happens if a vampire is prevented from feeding (like being locked in a crypt?)

If a vampire needs to charm someone in order to feed or enter a private dwelling, 1/day might not be enough. Maybe a successful save means that the attempt doesn't count towards the daily limit. Someone who successfully saves is immune to further charm attempts by that vampire for 24 hours. Also, the charm should require eye contact.


The rest of this post is not really criticism; I'm just trying to think things through. Nothing here requires changes to the template, unless you think some important issue arises.

I wonder if the blood drain heals enough for higher level vampires? At 10th level a wounded vampire might need 30+ points of healing, or about 7 rounds of blood drain. That's an average of 17.5 points of Con damage. Two average commoners drained almost to death. Twice that amount at 20th level. A little ingenuity will provide healing for a vampire character (a level of dread necromancer, say, or a feat that allows them to be healed by the cleric), but I'm thinking of the base creature. Maybe it can 'sip' carefully from a willing (or charmed) donor so that each round drains only 1 point of Con. While still providing 5 hp of healing, of course.

I know players who would want more precise definitions of the taboos. How deep the water has to be (and how fast does it have to be moving), whether a dragon's lair counts as a home (how about the caves inhabited by a tribe of goblins? The palace of a king?), things like that.

I'd say that if it requires a swim check then it is deep enough, and if it is moving fast enough to have a swim DC above 10 ('calm') it is fast enough. I'd also be tempted to weaken the requirement that someone with authority invite the vampire in. Just that anyone do so. Which means that the vampire cannot generally be the first to go in; one of the other members of the party will have to go first, so they can extend the invitation. The DM should warn the player if a taboo arises ("the water is kinda deep and seems to be flowing pretty fast - are you sure Count Vlad wants to go in?")

The other taboos depend on DM description. If the DM describes a room as laced with garlic, the vampire player knows that the taboo is being invoked. It is the same as if a wu jen has a taboo about speaking with someone dressed in blue; the character has to ask how people are dressed and listen carefully.

I think the taboos should be basically common sense to interpret, but maybe someone else might say they need to more details.

Anyway, I really want to thank you for this homebrew. I have found it very interesting and thought-provoking.

edit: Vampires might also sleep. That's how people can catch them napping in their coffins.

Also, I found this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12394597) to NeoSeraphi's "LA 0 Playable Vampires" wherein a description of private property is given:

A private residence is defined as a place that is owned by a specific person or person, legally. If no deed to the property exists, the space is treated as public to the vampire. A space whose total area exceeds 3000 square feet is never considered to be a private residence, even if a deed for such a space exists. However, inside one of these large spaces where a deed does exist, the vampire is unable to enter a private bedroom or other area whose primary purpose is for resting and whose ownership belongs clearly to an individual or a specific group of individuals who share the space equally (unless he has permission from the individual or from one or more of the group of individuals who own the space). Vampires may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

I am not at all sure I like this. I would think that an illiterate society could have private dwellings, although they could not have written deeds.

This revised vampire template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9405902#post9405902) has some interesting suggestions on blood drain and thirst:
Thirst

As an undead, a vampire does not eat, breathe or sleep - although sleep in a coffin does protect them from the affects of daylight and they may awake at-will from this state and have no penalty to listen checks while sleeping. However, they must drink at least 2 gallons of blood each week from a living, sapient (3 Int or higher) being. Going without 2 gallons of blood for one week will cause them to begin to dehydrate from lack of thirst as a humanoid normally would.

Blood Drain (Su)

A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check (alternatively, the victim can already be helpless). If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. Each successful 'drain' counts as having drank 1/16th of a gallon of blood per point of Constitution drained.

32 points of Constitution drain a week is an awful lot. Constitution damage (as in the vampire lite) is better, but still seems a lot. Revan Ordo's template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8050367&postcount=9) suggests a different penalty; bite someone each night or start having to make saves to avoid penalties and possibly enter a frenzy. Something like this could work to simulate a vampire who has been imprisoned for a long time.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-01, 02:39 PM
Thank you for your helpful and thought provoking posts.

I don't think a vampire needs to feed all the time. At the same time if a vampire was trapped in a crypt for a year it probably shouldn't be at full power. Not sure what to do here yet, maybe a choice between eating and drinking blood, but if they don't eat or dink blood for a period of time they lose access to their powers until they do?

As for healing with the base template at higher levels, as an intelligent undead a vampire can also heal naturally with rest. Making sleep a requirement is a good idea and i don't even have to make some weird rules about them being tired during the day. They can just chose when to sleep knowing that sunlight takes away their powers. I'm also planning on making vampire feats like the ones in your first link, those feats should really help me figure out what i want to do. I'm thinking of making one of them a better fast healing with out restrictions.

On taboos, I think it should be up to the DMs judgement on specifics. On the cave issues, personally i would say that a cave with an entire tribe of goblins counts as a public area, but any huts built inside the cave would be a home. I agree that the DM and player need to cooperate a little when identifying the vampires taboos.

Edit: Made several changes. I'm pretty happy with what I have. I think it is pretty balanced. I made it with level adjustment buy-off in mind because a lot of people here on the forum, including me, are likely to use it. Still open to suggestions though.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-01, 05:22 PM
Getting better all the time! :D

Does Vampiric Healing work if the vampire has more than half its normal hit points?

I don't think the vampire's special abilities should work in sunlight, even with a feat. Maybe the Day Walker feat could allow the vampire's power to return immediately upon leaving sunlight, rather than its having to wait until sunset? And as for it removing another taboo at 20th level - isn't it powerful enough as it is? Besides, feats normally do not scale with character level.

I also see that the number of taboos has been reduced to three. With Day Walker, only two. And at 20th level, only one. Does that seem right to you? The class that has taboos - the Wu Jen - gains additional taboos over time rather than losing them. I think that, if anything, the vampire should acquire more taboos over time. Maybe in exchange for extra powers - acquiring gaseous form, or turning into a swarm of bats or rats. Hmmm. We need a bigger list of taboos! Or at least other weaknesses.

Maybe 'Day sleeping' could be a weakness. Actually, making them sleep for at least part of the day would also make staking a realistic possibility, since sleeping characters can be coup de graced. I think the normal listen penalty (-10) should apply, and an initiative penalty in the round when they awaken. I don't know what the consequences of them being kept awake would be.

I'm still thinking about thirst. I think they should feed at least every three days or so. Then they get a small penalty to d20 rolls due to distraction. This penalty turns into a bonus to attack rolls and grapple checks made to pin an opponent. I am not sure of the specifics.

Blackhawk748
2013-07-01, 05:51 PM
well the logic behind losing taboos is because vampires are like dragons, they get scarier as they get older, they just dont get any bigger.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-01, 06:02 PM
well the logic behind losing taboos is because vampires are like dragons, they get scarier as they get older, they just dont get any bigger.

Yeah, but a lot of the taboos are from Bram Stoke's Dracula. And I have trouble thinking of Dracula as being such a low level character that he hadn't yet freed himself of taboos. Mind you, if Gandalf is a 5th level character (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7338), maybe Dracula is too. :smallsmile:

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-01, 08:09 PM
It was actually always three taboos. However, I just decided to make it all of them because I couldn't come up with any more of them.

I toned down the day walker feat as you suggested but decided that it would take away vulnerability to sunlight at level 20.

Yes the vampiric healing feat works above half health, I made the prerequisites a little harder and might make the feat prerequisite specific if i make an appropriate feat to start the line.

Edit: Given that dracula was in a no magic setting (I think, not sure though since i never read the book) he could very well have been level 5.

Edit 2: You know, I was thinking of creating a really hard to qualify feat that allowed a vampire to control double its hit dice in vampires it spawned. one of the prerequisites would have been free-willed so no pyramid scheme. In the end i scrapped it because i like the idea of vampires creating other vampires to either punish certain people (depending on the vampire's mentality) or to have companions as they run from paladins and clerics of pelor until they are strong enough.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-02, 08:01 AM
I'm having second thoughts about the wisdom of my suggestion that "drinking blood would then be a way of regaining its powers before it normally would recover." Suppose someone is trying to hold a vampire off with a brandished holy symbol? The vampire attacks him, briefly loses its powers, but then takes a nice long drink and gets them back. Or suppose the vampire is at the door. The home-owner has saved vs charm and doesn't want to let the vampire in. The vampire steps into the house, briefly loses its powers, then drains the home-owner. See what I mean? The drink=recharge rule means that the taboos can be just ignored.

And anyway, I think it was a bad suggestion on my part.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-02, 10:49 AM
Yeah, that definitely needs to be fixed.:smalleek:

edit: decided to still let them keep blood drain and some related feats i'm going to make because melee needs nice things. They just can't heal with it or get back their powers. Besides it would be weird to lose fangs.

Blackhawk748
2013-07-02, 05:33 PM
Dracula was pretty much just a fighter with the Vampire Template, though he had the stats of an Ancient Vampire from Ravenloft, just not the actual age.

Honestly he didnt do anything that would make me think he had a specific class, hell he probably just had a crap ton of undead HD.

EDIT:Also im thinking maybe the vampire should only be subject to sneak attacks and crits from wooden piercing weapons. i mean beheading only works after they've been staked, otherwise they just get pissed. Also 15 con points drained seems a lot, on other templates where vampires have to feed it was 5 con per 3 days, which in a week would be about 6-7 con points drained.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-02, 06:05 PM
Dracula was pretty much just a fighter with the Vampire Template, though he had the stats of an Ancient Vampire from Ravenloft, just not the actual age.

Honestly he didnt do anything that would make me think he had a specific class, hell he probably just had a crap ton of undead HD.

EDIT:Also im thinking maybe the vampire should only be subject to sneak attacks and crits from wooden piercing weapons. i mean beheading only works after they've been staked, otherwise they just get pissed. Also 15 con points drained seems a lot, on other templates where vampires have to feed it was 5 con per 3 days, which in a week would be about 6-7 con points drained.

Are you sure he didn't just have a few levels in commoner combined with fast healing, monster strength and dexterity, and damage reduction among other various vampiric buffs?

Also this template is about as far from Dracula as is both balanced and i can actually call vampiric. Might be able to become Dracula with the feats and some class levels.

Might make a feat to gain critical and sneak attack immunity from slashing though. I wouldn't take the feat, then again i wouldn't take any of the melee based feats I'm making. I'm making them to give people who actually do play melee characters nice things, also the secondary reason they keep blood drain when they violate taboos.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-02, 06:09 PM
I think a hungry vampire would be more dangerous than one that is well fed. For instance, say that after 3 days without feeding, a vampire gets +1 to all d20 rolls related to hunting prey (listen checks for approaching prey, grapple checks to feed on victims, etc.) and -1 to all other d20 rolls (listen checks to overhear conversations, diplomacy and knowledge checks, saving throws, wisdom checks, etc.) This reflects the vampire's focus on getting blood, and the distraction it suffers in any other task. After a week the modifier increases to +2/-2. The vampire becomes gaunt and feral looking; fangs do not retract, eyes are red, and so on.

As to how much blood is needed. Hmmm. People heal 1 point of constitution damage a day, right? So 15 a week would mean a "stable" of at least two or three people per vampire. It sounds a bit high, but I don't have any really strong intuitions about it.

Also, as written the vampire can feed off of animals. A rat has a 10 constitution!

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-02, 06:25 PM
I think a hungry vampire would be more dangerous than one that is well fed. For instance, say that after 3 days without feeding, a vampire gets +1 to all d20 rolls related to hunting prey (listen checks for approaching prey, grapple checks to feed on victims, etc.) and -1 to all other d20 rolls (listen checks to overhear conversations, diplomacy and knowledge checks, saving throws, wisdom checks, etc.) This reflects the vampire's focus on getting blood, and the distraction it suffers in any other task. After a week the modifier increases to +2/-2. The vampire becomes gaunt and feral looking; fangs do not retract, eyes are red, and so on.

As to how much blood is needed. Hmmm. People heal 1 point of constitution damage a day, right? So 15 a week would mean a "stable" of at least two or three people per vampire. It sounds a bit high, but I don't have any really strong intuitions about it.

Also, as written the vampire can feed off of animals. A rat has a 10 constitution!

Well I could leave feeding as is or limit the feeding to humanoids and monstrous humanoids but only require 10 constitution. The reason I say humanoids and monstrous humanoids is the only reason to limit it that makes sense to me is the type of blood. 10 constitution would make sense to me because that is about 1 average full human body of blood. You could still do constitution damage to other types of creatures it just wouldn't be power sustaining.

As far bonuses to hunting goes, I'll have to think it over.

Blackhawk748
2013-07-02, 08:16 PM
Weather vampires can feed on animals or no depends on the setting, and thats a human and a half a week, that seems a bit much to me personally, but thats just me.

and that feat would be awesome, otherwise as a vampire id be horrified of swords instead of looking at them disdainfully as i should be lol

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-02, 08:39 PM
I have made a change to the bite feat that frankly has just plain stupefying consequences, but i believe it was the right choice as i plan to make a couple more grappling themed feats. It now counts as improved unarmed strike. Imagine a vampire in a monk like prestige class that has a very powerful unarmed strike but does non-lethal damage.

I am also considering getting rid of that and giving the template improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat. Input on this issue would be appreciated.

Edit: decided to go for the improved unarmed strike bonus feat, but I am going to add it to the list of things the vampire loses when they break a taboo. Think of their punches as empowered by their supernatural dark powers.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-02, 10:30 PM
This is my version of NeoPhoenix0's excellent vampire (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15527349&postcount=1) template. Each of us has been tinkering with and proposing variants on a LA +2 template intended to provide the same flavor as the SRD vampire. I greatly appreciate NeoPhoenix0's creativity and hard work, and fully acknowledge my indebtedness for the idea and its execution.

There are various differences between our versions. This vampire (or “vampier” to distinguish it from other versions) needs to feed, and has a cumulative penalty for breaking multiple taboos. Blood drain and spawning work differently. The paragon class gives different benefits. However, both templates assume that the LA can be bought off; the template provides drawbacks as well as benefits, and so could be LA+0 at mid to high levels.

Creating a Vampier
"Vampier" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A vampier uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
--Size and Type: The creature's type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
--Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
--Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampier retains the ability to swim and is not affected by the running water taboo (see below).
--Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus improves by +2.
--Special Attacks: A vampier retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 vampier's HD + vampier's Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.
--Blood Drain (Ex): A vampier can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. This provokes an attack of opportunity unless the vampier has the appropriate feat. The victim must be within one size category of the vampier and have a circulatory system containing blood. If the vampier pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round the pin is maintained. Each such successful attack heals the vampier 5 hit points. A charmed victim will neither remember nor recognize that they were bitten.
--Charm (Su): A vampier can charm an opponent just by looking into his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except the vampier must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Any humanoid or monstrous humanoid the vampier targets must succeed on a Will save or fall under the vampier's influence as though by a charm person spell (caster level equal to the vampier's hit dice). An opponent charmed in this way will not resist having their blood drained by the vampier. Anyone who succeeds on this Will save cannot be affected by that vampier for 24 hours. This ability has a range of 30 ft. A vampier may use this ability a maximum of 3 + Cha modifier times per day (minimum 1/day).
--Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid who dies with unhealed blood loss from a vampier's bite has a chance of rising from the grave. There is a 5% chance per point of unhealed constitution damage that the creature will return as a vampier. The new vampier rises 1d4 nights after being buried unless staked or decapitated. A newly created vampier has free will, and is initially friendly to its creator.
--Energy Drain (Su): A vampier may choose to bestow one negative level on any living creature hit by the vampier’s unarmed strike. For each negative level bestowed, the vampier gains 5 temporary hit points that last up to one hour. The negative levels disappear after one hour, and can never cause permanent level loss. This ability is a free action, but can be used only once per round. Although a creature killed by a vampier's energy drain does not automatically become undead, such a creature is treated as having been killed by a death effect, and so cannot be returned to life with a raise dead spell.
--Special Qualities: A vampier retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
--Damage Reduction (Su): A vampier has damage reduction 5/silver or magic. A vampier's natural weapons and unarmed attacks are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
--Fast Healing (Ex): A vampier heals 1 point of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point but less than half its full normal hit points. As long as the vampier has more than half its full normal hit points, its fast healing does not function.
--Resistances (Ex): A vampier has resistance to cold 5 and electricity 5.
--Turn Resistance (Ex): A vampier has +2 turn resistance.
--Undead Traits (Ex): A vampier has all undead traits unless noted otherwise.
--Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +2, Dex +2, Cha +2. As an undead creature, a vampier has no Constitution score.
--Skills: Vampiers have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. Otherwise same as base creature.
--Feats: As base creature. Vampiers also gain Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. When a vampier is created it may exchange any number of general feats it chose at previous levels and replace them, one at a time, with vampier feats. The vampier must meet the prerequisites of a feat before taking it. Similarly, whenever a vampier gains a new level of experience it may choose to give up one general non-vampier feat it previously chose and in its place gain a vampier feat whose prerequisites it meets. For example, a 6th level character may choose to give up the bonus feats gained at levels 1, 3 and 6 in exchange for Necrotic Mist, Improved Vampiric Healing and Day Walker. Feats that were not chosen (like the Endurance feat gained by 3rd level rangers), or which were chosen from a restricted list (such as the fighter or wizard list of bonus feats) cannot be exchanged for a vampier feat. A vampier cannot trade away a feat used as a prerequisite for a prestige class or another feat.
--Alignment: Usually evil (any).
--Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +2

Vampier Weaknesses

--Taboos: To maintain its powers a vampier must abide by certain taboos. When a vampier violates one of its taboos it loses access to its charm and energy drain special attacks, and no longer heals hit points from using blood drain. The vampier also loses its damage reduction, fast healing and resistances special qualities. The powers return at the next sunset (or 24 hours later, if for some reason there is no night/day cycle). A vampier who breaks one taboo is wise not to break any others. Each different taboo violated by a powerless vampier results in a -1 penalty to all the vampier's d20 rolls. These penalties stack, to a maximum of -4. These penalties are removed when the vampier's powers are restored. Vampier taboos include:

Cannot enter direct sunlight (if the disk of the sun can be seen)
Cannot enter running water (at least 3 ft. wide and knee deep)
Cannot attack or approach within 5 ft. of someone brandishing a holy symbol or mirror (holding a vampier at bay takes a standard action)
Cannot enter a home or other building unless invited by someone with the authority to do so (but may still enter public places)
Cannot enter an area laced with garlic (a DC 15 knowledge check reveals this weakness; DC 10 in regions where vampiers are common)
The vampier's charm gaze is not considered an attack. A charmed victim is easily persuaded to set aside a holy symbol or mirror, or to invite a vampier inside. If the victim is warned not to do this by a third party, the vampier must succeed in an opposed Charisma check to overcome the warning.

--Sleep: Unlike most undead, vampiers need to sleep. A vampier loses its fast healing special quality if it has not slept for at least 6 hours in the previous 24. Most vampiers choose to sleep during the day. A vampier is helpless while sleeping.
--Feeding: Although it can survive without it, a vampier craves blood. Any vampier who goes 3 days without using its blood drain ability becomes distracted by persistent cravings, suffering a -2 penalty to Concentration and Intelligence based checks, and a -1 to all other d20 rolls except attack rolls and grapple checks. If a week passes without feeding these penalties double to -4 and -2 respectively. A hungry vampier becomes gaunt and feral looking; fangs do not retract, eyes are red, and so on.
--Extra Helpless: When a vampier is helpless it loses the benefit of damage reduction and fast healing, no matter the source of these abilities.
--Slashing and piercing weapons: Unlike most undead a vampier can be subject to sneak attacks and critical hits (including coup de graces) but only from slashing and piercing weapons. A vampier is destroyed if decapitated, whether by a vorpal weapon or by other means. A common weapon used to kill a helpless vampier is a wooden stake through the heart.

{table=head]Weapon|Cost|Damage (M)|Critical|Range Increment|weight|Type
Wooden stake|--|1d4|x2|--|1/2 lb.|Piercing[/table]

Vampier Feats

Some vampier feats add special qualities or special attacks to the vampier, and others modify or add to existing ones. As such, vampier feats are subject to a vampier's taboos unless otherwise stated.

Brutal Fangs [Vampier]
Prerequisites: Vampier, Str 13
Benefit: You gain a natural bite attack if you did not already have one. If you did not already have a bite attack use the appropriate damage from the table below according to your size, and treat the bite attack as a primary natural attack. Whenever you deal your bite damage to a target within one size category of your own you may attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Special: This feat is not affected by taboos.

{table=head]Size|Bite damage
Fine|1
Diminutive|1d2
Tiny|1d3
Small|1d4
Medium|1d6
Large|1d8
Huge|2d6
Gargantuan|2d8
Colossal|4d6[/table]

Day Walker [Vampier]
Prerequisites: Vampier, any two vampier feats
Benefit: You no longer have the "cannot enter direct sunlight" taboo. Instead you lose access to your vampier special qualities and special attacks only as long as you are in direct sunlight. Abilities lost due to exposure to sunlight return when you are no longer in direct sunlight.

Improved Elemental Resilience [Vampier]
Prerequisites: Vampier, Cha 13
Benefit: Your resistances improve to cold 10 and electricity 10.

Improved Supernatural Skin [Vampier]
Prerequisites: Vampier, Character level 9
Benefit: Your damage reduction improves to damage reduction 5/silver and magic. If you have at least five vampier feats you gain damage reduction 10/silver and magic.

Improved Vampiric Healing [Vampier]
Prerequisites: Vampier, Character level 5
Benefit: Replace your fast healing special quality with the following:
--Fast Healing (Ex): As long as it has at least 1 hp, a vampier heals a number of hit points per round equal to the number of vampier feats it has, to a maximum of 5 hit points per round.

Necrotic Mist [Vampier]
Prerequisites: Vampier, Character level 5
Benefit: Once per day you have a chance of avoiding damage that would otherwise destroy you. You cannot use this ability if you are helpless or if your ability to use supernatural abilities has been suppressed. Otherwise, if you would sustain more damage than your current hit points, you may instead attempt a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the difference between the damage being inflicted and your current hit points. You have a +1 bonus to this save for every vampier feat you possess. If your Fortitude save succeeds you immediately assume the form of necrotic mist for up to 10 minutes. Necrotic mist is a supernatural effect similar to gaseous form, except that while in the form of necrotic mist you are immune to hit point loss and have a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. When the effect expires or is dismissed your hit points are set to 1 hp and you are helpless for one hour.
Normal: An undead is normally destroyed if reduced below 1 hp.

Unnatural Acrobatics [Vampier]
Prerequisites: Vampier, Dex 13
Benefit: You gain the following special quality:
--Spider Climb (Su): A vampier can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.

Racial Paragon Class
You may become a vampier paragon even if you are already a paragon of a race. If you become a vampier paragon you may still become the paragon of your original race.

Vampier Paragon

Hit Die: d12

Class Skills (4+Int modifier per level): Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana, Geography, History, Local, Nobility or Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Vampier paragons are proficient with all simple weapons and with light armor.

Shadowless: At 1st level, a vampier paragon no longer has a reflection or casts a shadow. This ability protects against effects (such as the scrying spell) that scan an area that the vampier paragon is in; the effect works but the vampier paragon simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the vampier paragon do not work at all. For the purpose of this ability, a scrying effect is one that allows one to gain information about an area or target but does not require line of effect.

Charm Gaze: At 2nd level, a vampier paragon gains a +2 bonus to the save DC of his or her charm ability.

Class advancement: At 2nd and 3rd level, a vampier paragon gains class features and an increase in effective level as if it had also gained a level in a standard class to which it belonged before adding the paragon class level. The specific class features the vampier paragon gains include spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), improved chance of turning or destroying undead, metamagic or item creation feats, bonus feats, monk special abilities, sneak attack progressions, and so on, depending on the class. The vampier paragon does not, however, gain the benefit of its previous class's Hit Dice, attack progression, skill points, or saving throws. If the vampier had more than one class before becoming a vampier paragon, it must decide to which standard class to add each level for the purpose of determining class abilities.

Bonus Feat: At 3rd level, a vampier paragon gains a bonus feat. This feat can be any vampier feat. The character must meet the prerequisites for the bonus feat normally.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Class advancement

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Shadowless|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Charm Gaze|+1 level of existing standard class

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Bonus Feat|+1 level of existing standard class[/table]

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-03, 12:40 AM
As you can see I liked a lot of your changes and formatting choices. Yes there has been a number of changes over time, but i believe that I am satisfied with the template itself now, though i may have made a couple of errors when adjusting it just now.

I decided to scrap the whole feeding thing. It's just one of those mechanics i'm not happy with. Any DM that uses this template should feel free to choose differently though. I feel that while flavorful it can just complicate things and possibly bog down games. I don't think leaving it out will unbalance the template.

I think i'm going to link your alternate write up in the opening post just as soon as I figure out how.

Edit:

--Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid whose Constitution has been drained to 0 or lower returns as a vampire 1d4 days after burial. The new vampire is not enslaved by the vampire that created it but has free will.
You may wish to change your create spawn ability so it specifies blood drain.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-03, 09:36 AM
You may wish to change your create spawn ability so it specifies blood drain.

Got it. We could still use a few more feats. Gaseous form. Summon Swarm (bats and rats, probably). Swarm form. Dominate spawn (or at least 'friendly spawn'). And probably some kind of vampire racial class that gives bonus vampire feats, so players could actually take them. Some of the abilities mentioned might be too strong for a feat, but could be class abilities of a racial class. Or possibly alternate class features for a vampire who happens to be a warlock or something.

I think, though, that this would be a separate project. Making a full vampire out of a vampire lite through the use of feats and racial classes. It might be a good idea to take a day or two to see if the base template needs any more tweaking before starting a new thread. I feel, though, that it is pretty solid.

I enjoyed collaborating with you on this, NeoPhoenix0. :smallsmile:

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-03, 12:10 PM
Got it. We could still use a few more feats. Gaseous form. Summon Swarm (bats and rats, probably). Swarm form. Dominate spawn (or at least 'friendly spawn'). And probably some kind of vampire racial class that gives bonus vampire feats, so players could actually take them. Some of the abilities mentioned might be too strong for a feat, but could be class abilities of a racial class. Or possibly alternate class features for a vampire who happens to be a warlock or something.

Got gaseous form and a summon ability. Went with a straight up alternate form like the SRD vampire instead of a swarm form. Dominate spawn is definitely too strong for a feat. I'm not going to make a racial class, I'm just not that inspired. I'm glad I made this template though. Feel free to make a racial class. dominate spawn would be a good power there, I would suggest in that case to make free will a prerequisite to enter the class.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-03, 06:42 PM
Hey, i saved a copy of my original template completely unedited. I'll post it just to show how far it's come.

Unedited Version
Creating a Vampire

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid). Do not recalculate base attack bonus, saves, or skill points. Size is unchanged.
Hit Dice: Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s.
Speed: Same as the base creature. If the base creature has a swim speed, the vampire retains the ability to swim and is not vulnerable to running water (see below).
Armor Class: The base creature's natural armor bonus improves by +1.
Special Attacks: A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 vampire's HD + vampire's Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.
Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round the pin is maintained.
Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day-charm person. Caster level equals the vampire's Hit Dice.
Create Spawn (Su): A humanoid or monstrous humanoid that has it's constitution reduced to 0 by a vampire's blood drain ability or dies of hit point lose due to the constitution damage causeed by a vampire's blood drain ability returns as a vampire. The new vampire is not enslaved by the vampire that created it and has free-will.
Special Qualities: A vampire retains all the special qualities of the base creature and gains those described below.
Damage Reduction (Su): A vampire has damage reduction 5/silver or magic.
Fast Healing (Ex): A vampire heals 1 point of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point but less than half its full normal hit points. As long as the vampire has more than half its full normal hit points, its fast healing does not function.
Resistances (Ex): A vampire has resistance to cold 5 and electricity 5.
Abilities: Increas from the base creature as follows: Str +2, Dex +2, Cha +2. As an undead creature, a vampire has no Constitution score.
Skills: Vampires have a +2 racial bonus on Bluff, Hide, Move Silently, and Sense Motive checks. Otherwise same as base creature.
Feats: As base creature.
Alignment: usually evil (any) but occasionally neutral (any), almost never good (any). (Due to the common fear of vampires and the fact this template is weaker than the standard template, vampires fight for survival often turns then evil).
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +2

Vampire Weaknesses
Repelling a Vampire: Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from a mirror or a strongly presented holy symbol. These things don’t harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action.
A vampire in running water becomes temperarolly exhausted. If a vampire is immersed in water it becomes nauseated but can move at full speed unless it was exhausted before it entered running water or had it's movement speed reduced by something other than exaustion. Once a vampire is no longer immersed in water it is no longer nauseated unless it was nauseated before. Once a vampire is no longer in running water it is no longer exhuasted. This is an eception from an undead's immunity to exhaustion effects.
Exposing a vampire to direct sunlight robs a vampire of all the Vampire special attacks and special qualities as long as the vampire remains in direct sunlight.
A vampire can be subject to a coup de grace from a wooden stake or similar sharp, piercing, wooden weapon. The vampire is subject to the critical and any presicion damage (such as sneak attack) from this attack and must make the fortitude save for this attack or die if it survives the damage. This is an exception from an undead's immunity to criticals, sneak attacks, and effects requireing a fortitude save.

A wooden stake is an improvised weapon the following profile
{table=head]Weapon|Cost|Damage (M)|Critical|Range Increment|weight|Type

Wooden stake|--|1d4|x2|--|1/2 lb.|Piercing[/table]

There were some weird issues with formatting that i fixed right away, not gonna bother changing it.

DracoDei
2013-07-05, 04:37 PM
Wikipedia-like cross-indexing (have added a reciprocal link):
Eripmav (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260051)

If I ever re-write the above, I may go with your idea of "feats for most of the powers" to handle some of the complexity that I got a complaint about. The problem with that being that, it was the VULNERABILITIES that introduced most of the complexity.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-05, 06:50 PM
Wikipedia-like cross-indexing (have added a reciprocal link):
Eripmav (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260051)

If I ever re-write the above, I may go with your idea of "feats for most of the powers" to handle some of the complexity that I got a complaint about. The problem with that being that, it was the VULNERABILITIES that introduced most of the complexity.

Cross-indexing... it's like synapses... for the internet... making the internet smarter... Just what we need, to make skynet more plausible... then again it's less dangerous if we give it ADD.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-06, 01:12 PM
Looking at DracoDei's version I see that we left out something, namely that the creature's natural weapons and unarmed attacks should be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Also, a better name is needed than 'vampire lite'. Or else we need a different name for the SRD vampire, if the LA +2 template is the campaign default.

Regarding the alternate form and gaseous form feats... I think that alternate form could be left to a class ability. A shapeshift druid or wildshape ranger, say. Gaseous form is a fairly powerful ability for a feat (since it replicates a third level spell) and to have it be usable 1 + Cha modifier times per day is too much. But I think the ability to assume gaseous form instead of being destroyed might work, especially if it is a work around for the lack of a death's door.

Maybe something like this?

Necrotic Mist [Vampire]
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character level 5
Bonus: Once per day, if you would sustain more damage than your current hit points, you may instead attempt a Fortitude save with a DC equal to the difference. You have a +1 bonus to this save for every vampire feat you possess. If your Fortitude save succeeds you immediately assume the form of necrotic mist for up to 10 minutes. Necrotic mist is an supernatural effect similar to gaseous form, except that while in the form of necrotic mist you are immune to hit point loss and have a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability. When the effect expires or is dismissed your hit points are set to 1 hp and you are helpless for one hour.
Normal: An undead is normally destroyed if reduced below 1 hp.

Rationale: Living creatures do not die until -10 hp, and so undead are usually at a disadvantage. SRD vampires, however, assume gaseous form and have 2 hours to find their coffins. Once there, they rest for 1 hour before they start to heal. The LA +2 version doesn't have to return to a particular coffin, but has less time to find a safe place to recuperate; also a save is required. Note that it does not work if the vampire is in violation of a taboo. The benefit seemed on the order of a 3rd level spell, so I made it kick in around the time 3rds become available.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-06, 05:01 PM
That is an amazingly well thought out feat, I'll take.

As far as names for this template go i'll think about it, but my vampire vocabulary is rather small so i'm open to suggestions.

Edit: made some format changes to your feat and removed a couple other feats. Added attacks count as magic to improved supernatural skin.

I'm not going to try to replicate any other SRD vampire powers because it would be better to gain them as class features somehow.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-06, 05:46 PM
You almost have to pick a backstory for vampires before you can decide what they are called. How many kinds there are, where they came from, how common the different sorts are.

Anyway, I propose that +2 LA version be the normal sort: sometimes called the 'common vampire' or 'lesser vampire', properly called the upyr (plural: upyri), but mostly just called 'vampire.'

The +8 LA version is the 'true vampire' or 'greater vampire', properly called the drakul (plural: drakuli). Due to a particularly famous drakul, greater vampires are often called 'draculas'. Pedants look down on this usage, but it is occasionally argued that the term drakul is actually derived from the nickname of the historical figure.

edit: In other words, the 'vampire lite' is really a 'lesser vampire' or 'common vampire'.

edit2: I've made some changes in the prerequisites of the feats. They seem more of a set, now. I really should write in a short summary between the feat name and the benefit, like you did. Maybe later...

edit3: I have listed the powers lost by violating a taboo. I didn't want people to wonder if undead traits were lost (darkvision, etc.). I've reduced the d20 penalty for breaking a taboo, but now it stacks (to a maximum of -4).

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-07, 06:31 PM
Working on some fluff of my own. This is my template after all, I can't just let you do all the work.

This template feels much less like a predator and much more of areally tough prey, While the SRD template definitely comes off as a predator.

Of course the SRD vampire isn't going to hunt this one because it just doesn't hunt undead. Hard to suck blood out of you see.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-07, 07:24 PM
This template feels much less like a predator and much more of a really tough prey, While the SRD template definitely comes off as a predator.

Maybe. After all, a character who has strong passive defenses can focus more on offense.

But I see what you mean. There are a lot of passive defenses (DR, energy resistance, fast healing, natural armor, necrotic mist, undead immunities) and very little effective offense (blood drain is tied to grapple, and so is frequently useless, while charm person is only a first level spell).

I am also not entirely sure it is an LA +2. The loopholes in the undead immunities (e.g. vulnerability to critical hits and sneak attack), the penalties associated with its taboos, and the general lack of offensive ability make me wonder if it is more like a +1 than a +2. I mean, look at what someone gets from two levels of ghost (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a).

What do you think? We could improve Brutal Fangs (maybe use the Dire Weasel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWeasel.htm) as inspiration), or maybe some form of energy drain? Low level sorcerers can use a fell drain sonic snap to inflict a no-save negative level at short range as a 2nd level spell - or lower if metamagic reducers are in effect. A temporary negative level delivered by an unarmed strike shouldn't be unbalanced. Give it a one round cool-off period and it should be safe enough for PC's to use.

edit: I tinkered with Brutal Fangs to make it deal Con damage as well as hit point damage. Spending a feat to do 1d6 damage was kind of weak; this is better. I also added an energy drain attack. A common vampire does 1 negative level every two rounds instead of 2 negative levels every round, like the true vampires do. Hopefully that is enough.

edit2: Every time I read my version of the template I seem to find a typo! :smallannoyed:
Anyway, I was thinking that when a vampire is created (or gains a level) it could have the opportunity to lose a general feat it chose at a previous level and gain a vampire feat instead. A human could get daywalker by 3rd level, which would really be helpful. I'll see if I can draft something...

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-07, 11:12 PM
I'm not saying the whole prey thing is bad it's just a different perspective. I might use it when drafting the fluff.

Also i think the template is to strong for a +1. Maybe I should go back and take a look at the template tier system. Aiming for about a tier 3.

Edit: you need a clause about not replacing feats that are prerequisites for stuff like other feats and prestige classes.

Edit2: Using half-vampire for comparison, might reach the high end of tier three, but i don't think i'll get higher than the bottom end of tier two. I'll list changes after i make them

Changes: Major change to Charm ability
Added spot and listen to racial skill bonus list
Added improved initiative as a bonus feat

Cheiromancer
2013-07-08, 07:05 AM
I'm not saying the whole prey thing is bad it's just a different perspective. I might use it when drafting the fluff.

Well, maybe it doesn't have to be an apex predator, but a vampire that isn't a predator at all is like playing a lycanthrope that turns out to be a were-cow. :smallwink:

Adding spot and listen is a good step- it signals 'hunter'. I am not sure that Improved Initiative is flavorful enough to be worth adding. Also, I have been trying to get the idea of 'one quarter of a true vampire' when I can, since a LA+2 template is a quarter of a LA+8 template. So the bonus from the skills is a quarter as big, the energy drain is a quarter as fast (in two rounds a true vampire can drain 4 levels, but a lesser vampire can only drain 1), and so on. A true vampire gets 5 bonus feats, so by my rule of thumb a lesser vampire should get 1. Maybe IUS shouldn't count, since it fills in for the slam attack... I'm not sure.


Also i think the template is to strong for a +1. Maybe I should go back and take a look at the template tier system. Aiming for about a tier 3.

I'd lean towards a tier 2, myself. A tier 3 to me says "why bother?" A LA+2 template should be good, since it means the loss of a full spell level for a caster.


Edit: you need a clause about not replacing feats that are prerequisites for stuff like other feats and prestige classes.

Good point. The feats would take care of themselves, since if you lose the prerequisite you don't gain the benefit of the feat. But there is debate over when this rule applies to prestige classes. Dragon Disciple disqualifying itself as its capstone, and the like. I've made the change.


Edit2: Using half-vampire for comparison, might reach the high end of tier three, but i don't think i'll get higher than the bottom end of tier two. I'll list changes after i make them

Half-vampire strikes me as rather a blah template. I wouldn't give up 2 levels in exchange for it. Actually, I'd have to think if I would give up 2 levels for *this* template. A melee character would be better served by something with a Constitution and bigger buffs. A goliath or half-ogre or something. A caster shouldn't give up 2 caster levels without a really good reason. The skills look roguish, but... a rogue that can't break into houses? Maybe make a monk to better use the energy drain combo with IUS? Yeah, but then I'd have to play a monk... :smalleek:

And then there is the whole sunlight thing. You can get Day Walker with 3 feats, but how many character builds can spare 3 feats in addition to 2 levels? Especially since if you already have 3 feats why not take 2 more and get the maximum benefit from Improved Vampiric Healing and Improved Supernatural Skin?

I dunno. Maybe a low tier 2, but I would need some convincing that the "benefits are easily worth the class levels you give up for them". If you are playing a low-tier character class or are not particularly optimized then probably it is more true to say that "it doesn't make much difference in the power of your character either way." But I can see a great many character builds for which this template would be a real hindrance.

DracoDei
2013-07-08, 02:25 PM
Thank you for putting the reciprocal link in your first post!

I was going to do this anyway, but here, have a feat or two:
Vampiric Forms[Vampire]
You can take the forms of a few of the children of the night, and have a certain bond with them.
Prerequisites: Vampire, Character level 5
Benefit:
If of medium size or smaller you can assume the shape of a bat or wolf. If of large size or larger you can assume the shape of a dire bat or dire wolf. (If your base race is not terrestrial, this power might allow other forms.) In any case this ability requires a standard action to use, and may be used to assume an animal form a number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier(minimum 1) or the number of [Vampire] feats you have, whichever is less. While in its alternate form, you lose your charm gaze ability, but it gains the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of its new form. You can remain in that form until you assume another or until the next sunrise.

Also, when dealing with the lesser nocturnal creatures, such as rats, bats, wolves, jackals, owls, and some cats you add twice your number of [Vampire] feats to all Handle Animal, Ride, and Animal Empathy checks.

Call the Children of the Night[Vampire]
Your bond is less subtle, and
Prerequisites: Vampire, Vampiric Forms, Character level 5
Benefit:
Once per day you can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If your base race is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve you for up to 1 hour.
Special:
If you have the Vampiric Mist feat, and at least four [Vampire] feats total, then the creatures called forth by this ability gain DR 5/magic OR silver. If you have the Vampiric Mist feat, and at least six [Vampire] feats total then they instead have DR 10/magic AND silver.

You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it you may use this ability one more time per day, the time for arrival is reduced by 1 round (to a minimum of immediately, as per a summoning spell) and the creatures remain for another hour.





These are fairly off the top of my head, but I THINK they should work. I will note that getting six [vampire] feats will require a very high level... maybe this template needs a racial (paragon?) class that gives you bonus feats?

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-08, 08:27 PM
I had a couple feats like those but decided not to use them. Given that this template is only a +2 LA it should be pretty easy to get similar abilities via class levels. Like wild shape or summon spells.

Edit: Oh my, almost 1000 views. the number of people viewing this thread is rapidly increasing.

@cheiromancer: Our templates might start to diverge a little bit, but that's ok. It just means we have different views. I designed this template with the understanding that a lot of people on this site use LA buy-off. My own group uses LA buy-off. The thought process here is at ECL 8 this template no longer constitutes a whole +2 LA and you can get rid of your LA by ECL 10 and play a little XP catch up. With that in mind i see this template as a pretty good option.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-09, 07:20 AM
I designed this template with the understanding that a lot of people on this site use LA buy-off. My own group uses LA buy-off. The thought process here is at ECL 8 this template no longer constitutes a whole +2 LA and you can get rid of your LA by ECL 10 and play a little XP catch up. With that in mind i see this template as a pretty good option.

Let me think this through. If LA buyoff and XP catch up ("experience is like a river") are both assumed, then the template should be worth +0 LA at level 12 and later. Which means either that its abilities should be easily acquired through level appropriate magic items and class abilities, or else the drawbacks should balance the benefits, or a mixture of each.

I think that the features I added most recently (1 level of energy drain every two rounds, 1d4 Con damage on a bite) are easily in line with the capabilities of a 12th level character. A life drinker or lifestealing weapon gives energy draining capability for melee types, and there is enervation and fell metamagicked spells for the arcane, or you could be in the soul eater prestige class. As for Con damage, Bebelith venom does comparable damage, and should be easily accessible for crafting and safe use with the appropriate character.

The key question, I think, is whether these abilities add too much functionality to a particular class combination, making it a "must have" or "no brainer". In other words, would a player choose this template over other templates (or LA races) that are available? The only builds that I could see these features as being especially valuable for are poison users and/or melee monks. Both of which would have better options. So I think I stand by my judgment that this is not a tier 2 (or if it is, a low level tier 2). I think that it is definitely not a LA+1 template, though.

As for the proliferation of feats... maybe a second LA+1 template to stack on top of the existing template? It could give a few modest benefits (another +2 to the skills, an improvement to a special attack) plus three or four vampire feats? (The bonus feats for the SRD vampire would also be available, plus the homebrewed feats in this thread). It could have a prerequisite of 10 class levels, and maybe have a Necropolitan style level buyoff built in (I'd suggest losing one level, as if by raise dead, and paying 9000 xp. This would probably result in another loss of level.)

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-15, 12:20 AM
Fixed a number of typos I noticed. I'm not going to change anything else unless it is to fix something horribly broken or to fix a typo.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-30, 12:52 AM
Ok, I lied and made a couple of changes. I decided that it was indeed a good idea to have a feat swap out system.

I'm also making a pair of prestige class, one for martial characters and one for spellcasters. The prestige classes will be fairly simple and similar. I decided to write up two instead of making a silly vague adaptation section like WotC likes to do. I don't know if they will be well balance, but the idea behind them is simple. Reduce the number of taboos they have until they have none. I;m thinking of making the entry level 10 or level 15, but I don't know.

Edit: Going for level 15 entry. I think I need to change the skill requirements for the melee adaptation.

Cheiromancer
2013-07-30, 10:25 AM
I like the feat swap system! First of all, because it reassures me when our versions coincide. :smallsmile: But also because I like the notion that becoming a vampire fundamentally changes a character; they drop their old habits and ways of dealing with the world and embrace a different mode of existence. Swapping feats (or changing alignments) is a nice way of expressing the shift mechanically.

That said, I have reservations about the Vampire Ascendent prestige classes. A vampire prestige class should enhance some aspect of being a vampire, and thus make it more like a vampire, not less. Maybe they are more charming, and/or have an army of minions. Maybe they are more brutal and ferocious in battle. Maybe they are sneakier and harder to kill. Maybe their long life has given them knowledge beyond mortal comprehension. Lots of possibilities.

However, I think that vampire weaknesses are central to the idea of a vampire. A prestige class that does little more than remove these weaknesses makes the character less like a vampire. It is like a ghoul that does not eat corpses, or a ghost that is not incorporeal.

It would be different if there was some kind of trade-off. Like maybe a noble vampire is effectively the owner of all the buildings in his domain, and so does not need to ask for an invitation to enter. However he has to be carried across bodies of water (a carriage over a bridge, a boat over water, etc.) rather than cross on his own power. That would be nifty; enhance one weakness to relieve another. Exchange vulnerability to garlic for an enhanced vulnerability to silver; they take an additional 1d6 damage from silver weapons and a -2 attack penalty if they wield silver weapons themselves. Things like that.

I'd totally go for a class that exchanged weaknesses. Second best would be a class that made a sacrifice (spellcasting for one class, BAB for the other) to reduce the weaknesses. But just to eliminate them... it strikes me as a move in the wrong direction.

I need to think about it some more, but that is my first impression.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-30, 12:53 PM
Honestly I've had reservations about making these prestige classes and put them out their for input. You bring out a very good point about making them more vampire like instead of less. Maybe I can come up with some kind of trade of for each taboo and then add some more vampire themed abilities. I also need to come up with skill lists.

Edit: Might also make them truly separate prestige classes eventually.

DracoDei
2013-07-30, 08:11 PM
When you become a vampire you may trade one feat acquired by leveling up for a vampire feat. You may also trade in one non-vampire feat acquired by leveling up for a vampire feat every time you level up.
"acquired by leveling up" makes it unclear if that includes ones for 1st level, or for RHD.

You may not trade in a feat this way if it is a prerequisite for another feat you possess or for a prestige class.
Try "prerequisite for another a prestige class or other feat you possess." or even "prerequisite for another feat you possess or for a prestige class you have levels in."

NeoPhoenix0
2013-07-30, 10:45 PM
Nice catch. I'm not entirely happy with the new wording for what feats you can trade in but I hope the intent is clear.

Edit: I don't like where any of my ideas for a prestige class are going so I'm scrapping it for now. I might make a paragon class though. That should be easier to make.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-08-01, 03:07 PM
Made a paragon class and I think this was the right way to go. It is much simpler than a prestige class. What do you think about what I have so far.

Cheiromancer
2013-08-01, 03:41 PM
I didn't know that you couldn't be a paragon of more than one race. I thought half-elves and such could be paragons of both their parental lineages. (Assuming that a half-elf counts as both elf and human, though I think that's a variant rule.)

What happens if a vampire already has improved elemental resistance when he takes a paragon level? Or suppose he somehow doesn't have a 13 Charisma score?

NeoPhoenix0
2013-08-01, 04:12 PM
From the SRD in the varient rule section under race and then under racial paragon. (that's a lot of subdivision. At least it's not as bad as most legal documents.)


It's possible for a powerful magic effect such as shapechange, reincarnate, or wish to change a character's race. If a character has already taken racial paragon levels in his original race, he can never become a paragon of another race. However, such shapechanging and form-altering magics also cause no loss of a paragon's class abilities—the class abilities gained from racial paragon levels are affected no more or less drastically than benefits gained from having levels in any other class.

Also what do you think of the changes I made to the Improved Elemental Resilience section in the paragon class.

Cheiromancer
2013-08-09, 03:33 PM
I don't see why an elf who is "extra elfy" could not also be a vampire who is "extra vampy". Becoming a vampire is adding a template, not changing your race: the SRD rule you quote does not necessarily apply. Of course since it is homebrew you could add text ruling it one way or the other.

I think I would prefer that the paragon vampire class not advance spellcasting. If a particular race had wizard as a favored class, then +1 spellcasting is appropriate. If it had fighter as a favored class, it should have good BAB. But since vampire is a template, there is no reason for it to be one or the other. It should be a "+1 level to the class abilities of an existing class" or something.

I am also unsure about increasing energy resistance to more than the SRD vampire has. Their abilities tend to be my "ceiling".

You know what would be neat? Add that a paragon vampire does not cast a reflection or a shadow. No game mechanical effect that I can think of (though maybe they don't show up to scrying spells? Immune to mirrors of opposition?) but it has nice fluff.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-08-09, 09:51 PM
The point of the quoted rule, in my opinion, is that a creature can only be an exceptional example of one race. Granted vampire isn't exactly a race.

Edit: on +1 of exitsing abilities, I'm not going to do something like legacy champion.

DracoDei
2013-08-10, 12:18 AM
No game mechanical effect that I can think of (though maybe they don't show up to scrying spells? Immune to mirrors of opposition?) but it has nice fluff.
The first was something I included in my "Eripmav" (yes, the name is horribly cheesy, but there is a VERY good reason for it).

Cheiromancer
2013-08-10, 07:58 AM
The first was something I included in my "Eripmav" (yes, the name is horribly cheesy, but there is a VERY good reason for it).

Ah yes, the power of the empty mirror. I think I would adapt the wording of psionic mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm), myself. I think it is a gloss on how the regular mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) is supposed to work.


Edit: on +1 of exitsing abilities, I'm not going to do something like legacy champion.

Yeah, the legacy champion exploits are contrary to the RAI, I think. How about if it only advanced a standard class?

I put a version in my spoiler block. I also added some knowledge skills I thought a vampire might be especially interested in. (History, for example!)

DracoDei
2013-08-10, 10:22 AM
Ah yes, the power of the empty mirror. I think I would adapt the wording of psionic mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindBlankPsionic.htm), myself. I think it is a gloss on how the regular mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindBlank.htm) is supposed to work.
That is a much more wide-reaching effect.

And incidentally, how is that better worded than Mindblank?

I put a version in my spoiler block. I also added some knowledge skills I thought a vampire might be especially interested in. (History, for example!)
Well, depending on how old they are they might be interested/knowledgable...

Cheiromancer
2013-08-10, 01:37 PM
And incidentally, how is that better worded than Mindblank?
Well, I think it is clearer that it blocks clairvoyance and scrying, but it doesn't negate the bonus granted by true strike. If it is like being seen in a magic mirror then it is blocked.

I am not sure if there is a good criterion for whether something counts as scrying. I think of it as giving visual information without requiring line of effect, but I don't know if this is RAW.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-08-10, 05:22 PM
I put a version in my spoiler block. I also added some knowledge skills I thought a vampire might be especially interested in. (History, for example!)

All the basic paragons have only ten class skills, so I started with ten that made sense to me. Unless you think being a paragon of a template with +2 LA warrants more skills?

Cheiromancer
2013-08-10, 05:32 PM
All the basic paragons have only ten class skills, so I started with ten that made sense to me. Unless you think being a paragon of a template with +2 LA warrants more skills?

Well, the drow paragon class has 13 class skills - and that's counting "Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)" as 1. Likewise for elf.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-08-10, 07:23 PM
Ok, I added the knowledges, you might want to add (Int) after your list of knowledges for consistency.

Cheiromancer
2013-08-11, 04:11 PM
Done! I also did a little more tinkering. I noticed that my vampire does not have Improved Grapple, so I noted in the Blood Drain ability that it provokes attacks of opportunity if the vampire lacks the appropriate feat. Then I adjusted my version of Brutal Fangs so that a bite let it start a grapple without provoking an AoO. :)

I also noted in the weaknesses section that the vampire was vulnerable to decapitation. (Just before the bit about the stakes). Oh, and I specified what happens if someone is killed by the energy drain (nothing much, but it is like a death effect, so raise dead won't work.)

And I corrected some typos. Including some pretty dumb ones. For instance, I had written "Improved Unarmed Strength" as its bonus feat instead of "Improved Unarmed Strike"! It's crazy how your eye can just skip over such things.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-08-11, 04:17 PM
And I corrected some typos. Including some pretty dumb ones. For instance, I had written "Improved Unarmed Strength" as its bonus feat instead of "Improved Unarmed Strike"! It's crazy how your eye can just skip over such things.

Sorry, you probably caught that from me. I had that too at first.

Cheiromancer
2013-08-11, 04:18 PM
Sorry, you probably caught that from me. I had that too at first.

lol. Sorry for the unintended insult.

edit: We talked about alternative names, but none of them really seemed adequate. Just to distinguish my version from other versions, I thought I would try a slight misspelling of the name: vampier instead of vampire. Vampyre just looked too cliché.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-08-18, 03:36 AM
I decided to change the debuff for losing powers. It still affects a significant amount of rolls, but it doesn't happen when a vampire loses his powers from sunlight when it has the day walker feat. I also changed the sleep time to 4 hours.